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36 - The Republic - Plato · The Philosophy Insights Collection

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Book ten, Part One. Of the many excellences which I perceive in the
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order of our state, there is none which, upon reflection, pleases me
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better than the rule about poetry. To what do you refer to the rejection
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of imitative poetry, which certainly ought not to be received, as I see
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far more clearly now that the parts of the soul have been distinguished. What
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do you mean speaking in confidence? For I should not like to have my
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words repeated to the tragedians and the rest of the imitative tribe. But I
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do not mind saying to you that all poetrical imitations are ruinous to the understanding
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of their hearers, and that the knowledge of their true nature is the only
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antidote to them. Explain the purport of your remark, well, I will
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tell you, although I have always from my earliest youth heven awe and love
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of Homer, which even now makes the words falter on my lips, for
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he is the great captain and teacher of the whole of that charming tragic company.
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But the man is not to be referenced more than the truth. And
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therefore I will speak out very good he said. Listen to me, then,
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or rather answer me. Put your question, Can you tell me what
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imitation is? For I really do not know a likely thing? Then that
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I should know? Why not? For the dollar I may often see a
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thing sooner than the keener. Very true, he said, But in your
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presence, even if I had any faint notion, I could not muster courage
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to utter it. Will you inquire yourself? Well? Then shall we begin
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the inquiry in our usual manner. Whenever a number of individuals have a common
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name, we assume them to have also a corresponding idea or form. Do
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you understand me? I do? Let us take any common instance. There
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are beds and tables in the world. Plenty of them, are there?
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Not? Yes? But there are only two ideas or forms of them.
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One the idea of a bed, the other of a table. True,
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And the maker of either of them makes a bed, or he makes a
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table for our use in accordance with the idea. That is our way of
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speaking in this and similar instances. But no artificer makes the ideas themselves.
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How could he impossible? And there is another artist. I should like to
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know what you would say of him? Who is he? One who is
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the maker of all the works of all other workmen with an extraordinary man.
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Wait a little, and there will be more reason for your saying so.
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For this is he who is able to make not only vessels for every kind,
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but plants and animals himself, and all other things the earth and heaven,
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and the things which are in heaven or under the earth. He makes
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the gods also. He must be a wizard. And no mistake, Oh,
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you are incredulous, are you. Do you mean that there is no
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such maker or creator, or that in one sense there might be a maker
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of all these things? But in another not? Do you see that there
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is a way in which you can make them all yourself? What way an
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easy way enough? Or rather, there are many ways in which the feet
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might be quickly and easily accomplished, none quicker than that of turning a mirror
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round and round. You would soon enough make the sun and the heavens,
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and the earth, and yourself, and other animals and plants, and all
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the other things of which we were just now speaking in the mirror. Yes,
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he said, but they would be appearances only very good, I said,
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you are coming to the point now. And the painter too, is,
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as I conceive, just such another a creator of appearances, is he
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not, of course? But then I suppose you will say that what he
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creates is untrue. And yet there is a sense of which the painter also
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creates a bed, yes he said, but not a real bed. And
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what of the maker of the bed. Were you not saying that he too
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makes not the idea, which according to your view is the essence of the
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bed, but only a particular bed, yes I did. Then if he
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does not make that which exists, he cannot make true existence, but only
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some semblance of existence. And if any one were to say that the work
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of the maker of the bed, or any other workman has real existence,
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he could hardly be supposed to be speaking the truth. At any rate,
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he replied, Philosophers would say that he was not speaking the truth. No
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wonder then that his work too is an indistinct expression of truth. No wonder.
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Suppose now that, by the light of the examples just offered, we
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inquire who this imitator is, if you please, well, then here are
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three beds, one existing in nature, which is made by God, as
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I think that we may say, for no one else can be the maker.
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No, there is another which is the work of the carpenter. Yes,
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and the work of a painter is a third. Yes. Beds then
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are of three kinds, and there are three artists who superintend them, God,
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the maker of the bed, and the painter. Yes, there are
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three of them. God, whether from choice or from necessity, made one
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bed in nature and one. Only two or more such ideal beds neither have
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been, nor ever will be made by God. Why is that, because
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even if he had made but two, a third would still appear behind them,
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which both of them would have for their idea, And that would be
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the ideal bed, and not the two others. Very true, he said,
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God knew this, and he desired to be the real maker of a
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real bed, not a particular maker of a particular bed. And therefore he
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created a bed which is essentially and by nature one only so we believe.
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Shall we then speak of him as the natural author or maker of the bed?
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Yes, he replied, inasmuch as by the natural process of creation,
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he is the author of this and of all other things. And what shall
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we say of the carpenter, is not he also the maker of the bed?
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Yes? But what you call the painter a creator and maker? Certainly
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not. Yet, if he is not the maker? What is he in
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relation to the bed? I think? He said, that we may fairly
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designate him as the imitator of that which the others make good? I said,
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Then you call him, who is third in the descent from nature,
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an imitator. Certainly, he said, and the tragic poet is an imitator,
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and therefore, like all other imitators, he is thrice removed from the
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king and from the truth. That appears to be so. Then about the
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imitator we are agreed. And what about the painter? I would like to
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know whether he may be thought to imitate that which originally exists in nature,
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or only the creations of artists, the latter as they are or as they
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appear. You have still to determine this. What do you mean. I
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mean that you may look at a bed from different points of view, obliquely
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or directly, or from any other point, and the bed will appear different.
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But there is no difference in reality, and the same of all things,
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Yes, he said, the difference is only appearent. Now let me
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ask you another question, which is the art of painting designed to be an
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imitation of things as they are or as they appear of appearance or of reality
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of appearance. Then the imitator, I said, is a long way of
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the truth, and can do all things because he likely touches on a small
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part of them, and that part an image. For example, a painter
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will paint a cobbler, carpenter, or any other artist, though he knows
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nothing of their arts, and if he is a good artist, he may
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deceive children or simple persons when he shows them his picture of a carpenter from
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a distance, and they will fancy that they are looking at a real carpenter.
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Certainly, and whenever any one informs us that he has found a man
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who knows all the arts and all things else that anybody knows, and every
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single thing with a higher degree of accuracy than any other man whoever tells us
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this, I think that we can only imagine him to be a simple creature
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who is likely to have been deceived by some wizard or actor whom he met
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and whom he thought all knowing, because he himself was unable to analyze the
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nature of knowledge and ignorance and imitation. Most true, And so when we
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hear persons saying that the tragedians and Homer who is at their heads know all
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the arts and all things human virtue, as well as vice and divine things
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too. For that the good poet cannot compose well unless he knows his subject,
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and that he who has not this knowledge can never be a poet.
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We ought to consider whether here also there may not be a similar illusion.
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Perhaps they may have come across imitators and been deceived by them. They may
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not have remembered when they saw their works that these were but imitations thrice removed
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from the truth, and could easily be made without any knowledge of the truth,
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because they are appearances only and not realities. Or after all, they
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may be in the right, and poets do really know the things about which
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they seem to the many to speak so well. The question, he said,
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should by all means be considered. Now, do you suppose that if
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a person were able to make the original as well as the image, he
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would seriously devote himself to the image making branch. Would he allow imitation to
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be the ruling principle of his life, as if he had nothing higher in
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him? I should say not. The real artist, who knew what he
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was imitating, would be interested in realities and not imitations, and what desire
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to leave as memorials of himself works many and fair, And instead of being
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the author of encomiums, he would prefer to be the theme of them.
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Yes, he said, that would be to him a source of much greater
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honor and profit. Then I said, we must put a question to Homer,
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not about medicine or any of the arts to which his poems only incidentally
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refer. We are not going to ask him, or any other poet,
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whether he has courage patience like Asclepias, or left behind him a school,
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if medicine such as the Esclepiads were, or what he only talks about medicine
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and other arts at second hand. But we have a right to know respecting
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military tactics, politics, education, which are the chiefest and noblest subjects of
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his poems, and we may fairly ask him about them. Friend Homer,
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Then we say to him, if you are only in the second remow from
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truth in what you say of virtue, and not in the third, not
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an image maker or imitator. And if you are able to discern what pursuits
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make men better or worse in private or public life, tell us what state
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was ever better governed by your help. The good order of Lacedaemon is due
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to Lykrugus, and many other cities, great and small have been similarly benefited
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by others. But who says that you have been a good legislature through them
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and have done them any good? Italy and Sicily of Carondus. And there
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is Solon who is renowned among us. But what city has anything to say
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about you? Is there any city which he might name? I think not,
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said Glaucon, that even the Homerids themselves pretend that he was a legislator.
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Well, but is there any war on record which was carried on successfully
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by him or aided by his counsels when he was alive? There is not,
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or is there any invention of his applicable to the arts or to human
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life, such as Sallies the Milesian or Anarchasis the Scythian and other ingenious men
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have conceived, which is attributed to him. There is absolutely nothing of the
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kind. But if Homer never did any public service, was he privately a
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guide or a teacher of any? Had he in his lifetime friends who loved
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to associate with him, and who handed down to posterity any Homeric way of
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life, such as was established by Pythagoras, who was so greatly beloved for
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his wisdom, and whose followers are to this day quite celebrated for the order
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which was named after him. Nothing of the kind is recorded of him.
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For surely Socrates Creuphilus, the companion of Homer, that child of flesh,
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whose name always makes us laugh, might be more justly ridiculed for his stupidity,
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if, as is said, Homer was greatly neglected by him and others
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in his own day when he was alive. Yes, I replied, that
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is the tradition. But can you imagine, Glaucon that if Homer had really
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been able to educate and improve mankind, if he had possessed knowledge and not
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been a mere imitator, can you imagine, I say that he would not
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have any and been honored and loved by them. Protagoras of Abdurah, and
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Producus of Zeus, and the host of others have only to whisper to their
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contemporaries. You will never be able to manage either your own house or your
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own state until you appoint us to be your ministers of education. And this
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ingenious device of theirs has such an effect in making men love them that their
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companions all but carry them about on their shoulders. And is it conceivable that
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the contemporaries of Homer, or again of Hesiod would have allowed either of them
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to go about as rhapsodists if they had really been able to make mankind virtues?
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Would they not have been as unwilling to part with them as with gold,
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and have compelled them to stay at home with them? Or if the
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master could not stay, then the disciples would have followed him about everywhere until
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they had got education enough. Yes, Socrates, that I think is quite
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true. Then once we not infer that all these poetical individuals, beginning with
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Homer, are only imitators, the copy images of Virtue and the like,
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but the truth they never reach. The poet is like a painter, who,
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as we have already observed, will make a likeness of a cobbler,
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though he understands nothing of cobbling, And his picture is good enough for those
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who know no more than he does, and judge only by colors and figures.
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Quite so, in like manner, the poet, with its words and
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phrases, may be said to lay on the colors of the several arts,
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himself, understanding their nature only enough to imitate them. And other people who
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are as ignorant as he is, and judge only from his words, imagine
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that if he speaks of cobbling, or of military tactics, or of anything
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else in meter and harmony and rhythm, he speaks very well. Such is
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the sweet influence which melody and rhythm by nature have. And I think that
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you must have observed again and again what a poor appearance the tales of poets
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make when stripped of the colors which music puts upon them. And recited in
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simple prose, Yes, he said, they are like faces which were never
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really beautiful, but only blooming, And now the bloom of youth has passed
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away from them. Exactly. There is another point. The imitator or maker
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of the image knows nothing of true existence. He knows appearances only. Am
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I not right? Yes? Then let us have a clear understanding, and
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not to be satisfied with half an explanation. Proceed of the painter. We
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say that he will paint reins, and he will paint a bit, Yes,
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And the worker in leather and brass will make them, certainly, But
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does the painter know the right form of the bit and reins. Nay hardly
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even the workers in brass and letter who make them. Only the horseman knows
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how to use them. He knows of their right form, most true and
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of Book ten, Part one,