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MULHOLLAND DRIVE in the rearview, with Deborah Levy · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode touches on some sexual themes and includes a few spoilers, but it doesn't include me.
• 0:06
  Your regular host, Rico Galliano.
• 0:08
  This season, I've handed the hosting reins to UK film writer Simran Hans.
• 0:11
  You should read her work in The Guardian,The New York Times, and many more.
• 0:15
  She is a great guide to all things Lynchian. Enjoy.
• 0:22
  A few years ago, the novelist Deborah Levy was living in Paris.
• 0:26
  It was summertime and she was about to turn 60 when...
• 0:30
  Something incredible happened.
• 0:32
  One of Deborah's friends, Emeka Ogboh, was deejaying at a club in the second arrondissement.
• 0:38
  He thought it would be a good idea if for my birthday, I invited some friends to dance to his music in the nightclub Silencio.
• 0:47
  Yes: Club Silencio.
• 0:51
  Yes: You might recognize the name from the David Lynch film Mulholland Drive.
• 0:55
  Yes: There's a reason for that.
• 0:57
  Yes: Every room was designed by David Lynch.
• 0:59
  Yes: My daughters couldn't believe their mother was so cool as to be partying at Silencio.
• 1:08
  Yes: This is Deborah reading me a passage she wrote about that night.
• 1:12
  Yes: It's from one of her memoirs called Real Estate.
• 1:15
  Yes: Silencio had the perfect atmosphere for my 60th.
• 1:19
  Yes: Its design was mysterious, glamorous, a dimly lit inward world tucked into this world.
• 1:28
  Yes: And it was part of the history of cinema.
• 1:28
  Yes: There was even a smoking room.
• 1:33
  Yes: And this chamber in which one could fume was designed to resemble a forest of mirrors.
• 1:41
  Yes: There were nooks and crannies to have conversations, and there was the adrenaline of the dance floor itself.
• 1:48
  Yes: Emeka's playlist drew us all in, and then it sent us crazy.
• 1:54
  Yes: Every now and again I would look up at him on the stage, headphones over his ears, his arms in the air, our arms in the air.
• 2:04
  Yes: He gave us energy and conquered the room.
• 2:10
  Yes: I mean, that was such a birthday.
• 2:13
  Yes: I just love that image of you on your 60th birthday in David Lynch's nightclub in Paris.
• 2:21
  Yes: Tell us about why it was significant to celebrate that milestone in literal Lynch-land.
• 2:30
  Yes: Well, it was a fluke, you know.
• 2:30
  Yes: It happened by accident.
• 2:37
  Yes: But it was so important to me because Lynch probably has been the biggest influence on my novel writing, so much more than any other writer.
• 3:02
  Yes: Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 3:04
  Yes: MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema, and on this show we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 3:10
  Yes: I'm your guest host, Simran Hans and this is season nine.
• 3:14
  Yes: We're calling it 'Ladies of Lynch'.
• 3:16
  Yes: Conversations about the subversive female characters created by David Lynch and the singular women who helped shape them.
• 3:24
  Yes: This is the last episode of the series, and to mark it, I want to discuss Lynch's women with someone who really understands them.
• 3:31
  Yes: My name is Deborah Levy.
• 3:33
  Yes: I'm a writer of novels of plays and performance texts, and also of three memoirs.
• 3:42
  Yes: Deborah's brilliant novels includeThe Man Who Saw Everything,August Blue, and Hot Milk, for which she was shortlisted for the Booker Prize.
• 3:50
  Yes: She's also a massive David Lynch fan.
• 3:53
  Yes: Deborah didn't work with Lynch directly, but her writing is definitely in the spirit of Lynch.
• 3:58
  Yes: They're both visual thinkers who know a thing or two about strangeness.
• 4:02
  Yes: Deborah has so many insights when it comes to the craft of Lynch's storytelling.
• 4:07
  Yes: Looking at the first episode of Twin Peaks, I'm absolutely amazed at how perfect it is.
• 4:14
  Yes: Everything we need to know is there in the first image.
• 4:19
  Yes: And a few theories about why the women of Mulholland Drive are so magnetic.
• 4:24
  Yes: He does work with stereotypes, but because he makes them very turbulent, he gives them an inner life.
• 4:32
  Yes: So when we spoke, that seemed like a great place to start.
• 4:40
  Yes: The New York Times recently declared Mulholland Drive the second best film of the 21st century, which is kind of underselling it.
• 4:48
  Yes: Released in 2001, it's a dark fairy tale about an aspiring Hollywood actress named Betty, played by Naomi Watts.
• 4:56
  Yes: Betty is dazzled from the moment she lands in LA.
• 5:00
  Yes: Oh, I can't believe it. But the arrival of a mysterious amnesiac brunet who goes by Rita causes things to veer off track.
• 5:11
  Yes: I don't know who I am.- What do you mean, you're Rita?
• 5:13
  Yes: - No I'm not.I don't know what my name is.I don't know who I am. Betty's dream morphs into a nightmare.
• 5:35
  Yes: Here's your spoiler warning if you've not seen the film.
• 5:38
  Yes: In the second half, we discover that Betty is a fantasy, a kind of wishful identity of a down and out actress called Diane.
• 5:45
  Yes: And as for Rita, she's actually a more successful actress who's gone missing, whose real name is Camilla.
• 5:53
  Yes: In Mulholland Drive, once again, Lynch is playing with the trope of the angelic blonde versus the seductive brunette.
• 6:00
  Yes: We've seen this play out in Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks and even in Lost Highway.
• 6:05
  Yes: - I asked Debra what she made of it all.
• 6:05
  Yes: - The brunet Rita and Naomi Watts blonde, blue eyed, naive, eager young actress wanting to make it.
• 6:18
  Yes: Why does he do that?
• 6:21
  Yes: That's a stereotype.
• 6:21
  Yes: And he does work with stereotypes.
• 6:26
  Yes: But because he makes them both very turbulent, he gives them an inner life.
• 6:33
  Yes: They always suffering is men that make them suffer.
• 6:39
  Yes: Mulholland Drive I guess this is his satire.
• 6:44
  Yes: Or should I say critique?
• 6:46
  Yes: Maybe that's a better a word, a satirical critique of Hollywood.
• 6:53
  Yes: So he's looking at Rita Hayworth and how she was constructed.
• 6:57
  Yes: And Camilla is constructed to very much resemble her.
• 7:01
  Yes: A satire and a critique of the Hollywood dream machine of the constant, exhausting performance required to become a star.
• 7:10
  Yes: And the shameless lies that must be swallowed in order to keep the dream alive.
• 7:14
  Yes: I wonder what you think of that amazing scene in Mulholland Drive when Naomi Watts is going for her audition, and she's doing a line run with Rita.
• 7:29
  Yes: The scene that they rehearsing, I think it's the male predator, there's a conversation with him.
• 7:37
  Yes: If I tell what happened, they'll arrest you and put you in jail.So get out of here before...- Before what?
• 7:44
  Yes: - Before I kill you.Then they'd put you in jail. And the two women are very playful with each other, and they are laughing at the lines, and they don't take them that seriously.
• 8:01
  Yes: Then I cry, cry, cry.And then I say with big emotion,"I hate you! I hate us both!"Such a lame scene. And then she does the actual audition.
• 8:16
  Yes: And this really creepy act-- Male actor with orange makeup.
• 8:22
  Yes: Very like Trump does his whole patter with her, and she really puts a flame under the lines.
• 8:32
  Yes: If you're trying to blackmail me...
• 8:32
  Yes: it's not gonna work.You know what I want.
• 8:39
  Yes: It's not that difficult.Get out.Get out before I call my dad.
• 8:49
  Yes: He trusts you.You're his best friend. And you kind of see how straight female sexuality in that scene is a performance for men, it's very knowing.
• 9:10
  Yes: I hate you.I hate us both. He's sort of taking the piss, I think as well.
• 9:22
  Yes: David Lynch in that scene.
• 9:24
  Yes: It really shows you how many different things Naomi Watts is doing in that film, because when we meet her as Betty, we're sort of not sure whether she's going to be a good actress or not.
• 9:35
  Yes: But we're introduced to her and she's so kind of lovable and optimistic.
• 9:40
  Yes: Then when she's rehearsing the lines, you know, we think, "Can she do it?" And then you put her in this scenario and she blows everybody away with her talent, which of course, by the end of the film, we know doesn't necessarily mean success, doesn't mean happiness doesn't mean deliverance in any way.
• 9:57
  Yes: Yeah.
• 9:59
  Yes: Naomi Watts is extraordinary.
• 9:59
  Yes: I think she is just an incredible actress.
• 10:06
  Yes: To be given such a lot to do by Lynch in the directing and in the script is really very unusual.
• 10:17
  Yes: Naomi Watts thought it was unusual too.
• 10:19
  Yes: Here she is with Lynch in 2015, speaking in an interview with Criterion.
• 10:24
  Yes: I'd spent ten years of auditioning in Los Angeles, where you lucky if you getto meet the director and if you do, it's a quick five minute meeting. But when she met David Lynch, it was a totally different story.
• 10:39
  Yes: David looked at me right away, eyes and connection,and he just was beaming with light,and somehow I just suddenly felt like his energy relaxed meand I was able to show myself,because I think from so many years of rejection, I'd built up veneerafter veneer and thought, "Okay, who do they want me to be?"Am I supposed to be funny, sexy, smart, shy, quiet?"And I didn't know who I was anymore. Watts says she walked out of the audition in floods of tears.
• 11:14
  Yes: Finally, a director who saw her vulnerability and didn't look away.
• 11:23
  Yes: And he'd create opportunities for Watts to express that vulnerability in the film.
• 11:27
  Yes: Like in a love scene between Betty and Rita.
• 11:30
  Yes: I found that a very moving scene, actually, when Betty says,"Oh, don't sleep on the sofa.
• 11:37
  Yes: You can get into bed with me."
• 11:43
  And then they kiss and she says: I'm in love with you. And she's so startled at that thought.
• 11:49
  And then they kiss and she says: That's how she delivers it, Naomi Watts, in a sort of bewildered way.
• 11:55
  And then they kiss and she says: In a new way.
• 11:57
  And then they kiss and she says: Because how are you ever going to say that in life and on screen?
• 12:02
  And then they kiss and she says: "I think I'm in love with you in a new way." Well, this is her genius.
• 12:04
  And then they kiss and she says: And I think it's Lynch's genius too.
• 12:11
  And then they kiss and she says: Lynch's view of female sexuality, I think is really interesting because he seems in awe of it.
• 12:19
  And then they kiss and she says: He seems very sort of reverent towards it, but also sometimes he seems even a little bit scared of it as well.
• 12:25
  And then they kiss and she says: What do you think that kind of says about him and his worldview?
• 12:29
  And then they kiss and she says: Well, I think he's quite right to be scared of it.
• 12:34
  And then they kiss and she says: Women are very powerful.
• 12:37
  And then they kiss and she says: Simone de Beauvoir said it best the sort of need to oppress and suppress women is very mysterious.
• 12:48
  And then they kiss and she says: Maybe he's giving his own desires a bit of an airing.
• 12:53
  And then they kiss and she says: He's certainly respectful and compassionate and funny, although I think, is there much humor and wit in his female characters, maybe more in his male characters, but the female characters are so powerful they fill up the screen.
• 13:14
  And then they kiss and she says: And he's exploring their turbulence in a really interesting way because he makes them very, they're very constructed, they're glamorous, which I love personally.
• 13:26
  And then they kiss and she says: They're very made up.
• 13:27
  And then they kiss and she says: Their hair's perfect and their makeup is perfect, and their costumes a kind of shield for the turbulence.
• 13:38
  And then they kiss and she says: I think it's kind of a celebration of beauty in a way.
• 13:41
  And then they kiss and she says: And it's about constructing a surface so that you can get inside.
• 13:50
  And then they kiss and she says: What Deborah is getting at here is that in a David Lynch film, the surface conceals hidden depths.
• 13:56
  And then they kiss and she says: Things are never as they seem.
• 13:59
  And then they kiss and she says: This is maybe why, as we've learned in previous episodes, Lynch didn't trust words.
• 14:04
  And then they kiss and she says: So it's ironic that his work had such an impact on someone from the literary world like Deborah.
• 14:10
  And then they kiss and she says: What lessons can writers learn from Lynch's films?
• 14:12
  And then they kiss and she says: That's after the break.
• 14:19
  And then they kiss and she says: All right, everybody, your regular host, Rico Gagliano, here to tell you about MUBI.
• 14:23
  And then they kiss and she says: It is the global film company that champions great cinema, bringing it to you wherever you are in as many ways as we possibly can.
• 14:30
  And then they kiss and she says: We stream movies, we produce them, we release them in theaters.
• 14:33
  And then they kiss and she says: Movies from any country, from legendary auteurs or brilliant first timers, we have always got something new for you to discover.
• 14:39
  And then they kiss and she says: And after hearing this episode, here's something you might want to discover the screen adaptation of our guest Deborah Levys novel Hot Milk.
• 14:47
  And then they kiss and she says: It is the story of a young woman on the sun drenched coast of Spain who discovers the folks in her life, including her mother and her lover, may not be who they seem.
• 14:57
  And then they kiss and she says: Which leads her on a quest to solve mysteries and open doors that might be better left closed.
• 15:03
  And then they kiss and she says: Can you detect the Lynch influence in that synopsis at all?
• 15:06
  And then they kiss and she says: Among the movie stars is Irish acting legend Fiona Shaw, who we actually interviewed last season.
• 15:12
  And then they kiss and she says: Back in our episode about Ireland's filmmaking scene.
• 15:15
  And then they kiss and she says: She is in top form along with Vicky Krieps, costar of Paul Thomas Anderson'sPhantom Thread, and you can see Hot Milk on MUBI right now in the UK, Ireland, Latin America and many other countries.
• 15:26
  And then they kiss and she says: Head to mubi.com to subscribe and dive in.
• 15:29
  And then they kiss and she says: As usual, we've got all the info and links you need in the show notes of this episode.
• 15:34
  And then they kiss and she says: Speaking of which, let's get back to Simran as she closes out this episode and this season with Deborah Levy.
• 15:45
  And then they kiss and she says: One of Lynch's gifts as a director is his ability to create atmosphere.
• 15:49
  And then they kiss and she says: In all of his films, there's an overwhelming sense that something is off.
• 15:54
  And then they kiss and she says: You might even call this feeling Lynchian.
• 15:57
  And then they kiss and she says: I asked Deborah what people really mean when they use that term.
• 16:00
  And then they kiss and she says: Maybe it's something like an interest in the irrational an interest in the unconscious, in strange thoughts that you don't quite understand, but that might obsess you.
• 16:17
  And then they kiss and she says: The uncanny, something vaguely surreal.
• 16:22
  And then they kiss and she says: He had a logic, and sometimes a kind of logic that he's interested in is, as we know, the logic of dreams.
• 16:30
  And then they kiss and she says: I think it's somewhere there.
• 16:30
  And then they kiss and she says: Lateral storytelling.
• 16:34
  And then they kiss and she says: What was the first David Lynch film you remember seeing?
• 16:38
  And then they kiss and she says: I think it must have been Blue Velvet.
• 16:38
  And then they kiss and she says: And, I mean, it just blew me away.
• 16:44
  And then they kiss and she says: He has a very glossy surface to quite a few of his films, particularly Blue Velvet.
• 16:50
  And then they kiss and she says: That opening scene with the hyper real roses, the very green grass, the white picket fence.
• 16:58
  And then they kiss and she says: And he has to do that because under the grass, Jeffrey, the young student, is going to find a human severed ear.
• 17:06
  And then they kiss and she says: So he's very good at setting up a reality and then subverting it.
• 17:11
  And then they kiss and she says: I always feel I'm in safe hands with the Lynch film, even if there are parts that are just totally mysterious.
• 17:18
  And then they kiss and she says: All the better as far as I'm concerned.
• 17:20
  And then they kiss and she says: I know that he has a complete conviction of ideas.
• 17:28
  And then they kiss and she says: I want to talk a little bit about Lynch's female characters, because this show is meant to be a kind of celebration of his more subversive female characters, and also a kind of an attempt to try and understand them a little bit better as well.
• 17:45
  And then they kiss and she says: How would you describe the particular version of femininity that Lynch puts on screen?
• 17:53
  And then they kiss and she says: Do you believe his female characters?
• 17:53
  And then they kiss and she says: Well, I kind of do.
• 17:56
  And then they kiss and she says: I was talking about them with my daughter.
• 17:59
  And then they kiss and she says: Why do you think they always suffering from male abuse?
• 18:04
  And then they kiss and she says: Can they suffer from something else?
• 18:06
  And then they kiss and she says: And she's 25. And she said to me, "I just feel in my gut that he's onside with me.! I don't feel in any way undermined by his excellent characters, really.
• 18:19
  And then they kiss and she says: They have such a lot to do.
• 18:22
  And then they kiss and she says: In Blue Velvet you have the very reconstructed Dorothy Vallens.
• 18:29
  And then they kiss and she says: Isabella Rossellini.
• 18:29
  And then they kiss and she says: And she's dark and mysterious.
• 18:34
  And then they kiss and she says: Bluer than velvet was the night And when we see her singing in the nightclub, watched by Sandy and Jeffrey.
• 18:46
  And then they kiss and she says: I just fell completely in love with her, as she sang Blue Velvet.
• 18:51
  And then they kiss and she says: And Lynch knows what he's doing.
• 18:54
  And then they kiss and she says: So it's erotically charged, she kind of disappears into this mysterious blue light as she sings.
• 19:04
  And then they kiss and she says: Bluer than velvet were her eyes She's yet another one of his abused women.
• 19:16
  And then they kiss and she says: She's also kind of steely.
• 19:19
  And then they kiss and she says: There's a lot going on inside her.
• 19:23
  And then they kiss and she says: I mean, if you were going to really force me to find something that could be improved in Blue Velvet I do think the part of Sandy is underwritten.
• 19:34
  And then they kiss and she says: - Sneak into her apartment.
• 19:34
  And then they kiss and she says: - Yeah.Are you crazy?Jeffrey, she's possibly involved in murder.This is giving me the creeps.Alright, just settle down. So she's kind of the blonde, apple pie, homecoming queen that he's going to explore later in Twin Peaks.
• 19:56
  And then they kiss and she says: Visually, Laura Dern, she's in these little pink tops and dresses.
• 20:03
  And then they kiss and she says: We never really know what she thinks and feels about Dorothy Vallens.
• 20:08
  And then they kiss and she says: Apart from some kind of sexual jealousy because her boyfriend's screwing this woman, you know?
• 20:13
  And then they kiss and she says: Okay, understandable, I get it.
• 20:16
  And then they kiss and she says: But maybe she could think about that a little bit more.
• 20:21
  And then they kiss and she says: You can tell me any plan you want,but it's not going any further than this diner. But really, Blue Velvet is perfect.
• 20:29
  And then they kiss and she says: Laura Dern's-- She doesn't have the opportunity to do all the things that we know that she can do.
• 20:35
  And then they kiss and she says: Although it's actually quite, like, a complex performance in the film, I rewatched it recently, and I was really kind of struck by how nuanced it is and how intelligent that performance is.
• 20:47
  And then they kiss and she says: But Lynch worked with Laura Dern several times over the years.
• 20:51
  And then they kiss and she says: They had a long collaboration, and each role offered her more, each role offered, you know, more opportunities for complexity.
• 20:59
  And then they kiss and she says: Definitely.
• 20:59
  And then they kiss and she says: And what a collaboration, really.
• 21:02
  And then they kiss and she says: You've spoken before about how you've been inspired in your writing by Lynch's approach to structure.
• 21:09
  And then they kiss and she says: What's unique about the way his films are structured and laid out?
• 21:14
  And then they kiss and she says: What's unique about Lynch's films is the pace.
• 21:21
  And then they kiss and she says: Looking at the first episode of Twin Peaks I'm absolutely amazed at how perfect it is.
• 21:30
  And then they kiss and she says: Scene one, episode one.
• 21:33
  And then they kiss and she says: Everything we need to know is almost there in the first image.
• 21:42
  And then they kiss and she says: Do you know that little robin in the tree?
• 21:42
  And then they kiss and she says: Our introduction to the logging town.
• 21:48
  And then they kiss and she says: Quite ominous.
• 21:48
  And then they kiss and she says: Epic music full of angst and longing.
• 21:54
  And then they kiss and she says: So he spends a lot of time on the setup.
• 21:54
  And then they kiss and she says: And so do I in my novels.
• 22:01
  And then they kiss and she says: Takes me longer to write the first 12 pages of any novel than the rest of it.
• 22:07
  And then they kiss and she says: Because everything the reader or the viewer needs to know is kind of embedded there in the beginning.
• 22:20
  And then they kiss and she says: And then if you go for something really wild like Mulholland Drive in terms of structure, where if you're me going,"Wait, what what what's going on?
• 22:29
  And then they kiss and she says: What's happened there?" I really always believe that I'm not kind of being tricked, that there is a sense to his structure that is psychologically true.
• 22:49
  And then they kiss and she says: And then maybe uncannily true.
• 22:52
  And then they kiss and she says: When you least expect it. Like in Twin Peaks, the bad boys are in jail for a night.
• 23:00
  And then they kiss and she says: It's Bobby and somebody else, and they start to howl like wild animals in their cell.
• 23:10
  And then they kiss and she says: It's just like the savage wildness under suburban America.
• 23:20
  And then they kiss and she says: What other rules do you think he disregards when it comes to telling a story?
• 23:24
  And then they kiss and she says: He's going to leave things open.
• 23:24
  And then they kiss and she says: He's not going to answer every single inquiry that we might have of his story.
• 23:34
  And then they kiss and she says: He's just not going to do that.
• 23:34
  And then they kiss and she says: He's not interested.
• 23:38
  And then they kiss and she says: He's not going to answer it directly, at least.
• 23:42
  And then they kiss and she says: But he's very good, I think, at tension and suspense.
• 23:48
  And then they kiss and she says: When I was writing The Man Who Saw Everything, I wasn't really thinking about Lynch, but we share an imaginative response to things.
• 24:01
  And then they kiss and she says: Debra's novel The Man Who Saw Everything definitely feels Lynchian.
• 24:06
  And then they kiss and she says: It's about a man named Saul Adler, who's hit by a car in London in 1988 and again in 2016.
• 24:13
  And then they kiss and she says: The second time it happens, we start to question what kind of reality we're dealing with.
• 24:18
  And then they kiss and she says: By which I mean Saul Adler in my novel is crossing the Abbey Road in London, this famous pedestrian crossing in the Beatles cover for Abbey Road.
• 24:32
  And then they kiss and she says: And so I knew the novel was going to start there.
• 24:35
  And then they kiss and she says: And I think, hey, what if Saul Adler crosses the road and falls through the road and ends up in communist East Germany?
• 24:49
  And then they kiss and she says: He just falls through the tarmac.
• 24:51
  And then they kiss and she says: I was so excited by that idea.
• 24:51
  And then they kiss and she says: Oh my goodness.
• 24:55
  And then they kiss and she says: But when I came to write it, I thought, well, then I've got nowhere to go because I've set up this Alice in Wonderland-ish reality and anything can happen.
• 25:09
  And then they kiss and she says: And that's quite boring.
• 25:09
  And then they kiss and she says: Nothing has consequences.
• 25:12
  And then they kiss and she says: So I'm going to have to go right back to the reality of that crossing, to how it's painted, where the cars are parked, which way the traffic is.
• 25:24
  And then they kiss and she says: So in a sense, that's like the set up of a film the kind of very concrete realities that Lynch sets up before he churns them over in all his films.
• 25:40
  And then they kiss and she says: I think you can really see that in something like Mulholland Drive where we can kind of interpret the red curtains at Silencio as a kind of portal, but it's not a literal portal.
• 25:53
  And then they kiss and she says: - You know?
• 25:53
  And then they kiss and she says: - Yes, exactly.
• 26:00
  And then they kiss and she says: - Lynch was fascinated by doubles.
• 26:00
  And then they kiss and she says: - Yes.
• 26:04
  And then they kiss and she says: And in August Blue, your novel, you also play with doubles.
• 26:08
  And then they kiss and she says: Why are they so appealing for both you and Lynch?
• 26:11
  And then they kiss and she says: Wow.
• 26:12
  And then they kiss and she says: I mean, the double or the doppelganger?
• 26:12
  And then they kiss and she says: That's an old subject, isn't it?
• 26:18
  And then they kiss and she says: Our first doppelganger is our shadow.
• 26:21
  And then they kiss and she says: When we're kids, you know, the way we chased our shadow.
• 26:25
  And then they kiss and she says: And especially in Gothic literature, the double is literally a split person.
• 26:32
  And then they kiss and she says: At its most basic Jekyll and Hyde sort of thing.
• 26:36
  And then they kiss and she says: It's the bad self and the good self.
• 26:39
  And then they kiss and she says: But we know there's no such thing really, as something as binary as that.
• 26:44
  And then they kiss and she says: And so the double is a really good way of exploring the complexity of the split person.
• 26:53
  And then they kiss and she says: I do that in August Blue and Lynch is obviously fascinated by it in Mulholland Drive, how the desires or things that we can't quite handle or that shame us, we can sort of project it onto an Other.
• 27:13
  And then they kiss and she says: Lynch famously didn't like analysis.
• 27:13
  And then they kiss and she says: He didn't like his work being analyzed.
• 27:18
  And then they kiss and she says: He was very suspicious of words and of people trying to describe and interpret his films, because he felt that kind of killed the meaning somehow.
• 27:27
  And then they kiss and she says: - What do you make of that?
• 27:27
  And then they kiss and she says: - Yeah, I mean, I think he's right.
• 27:31
  And then they kiss and she says: It's Silencio all the way.
• 27:31
  And then they kiss and she says: He wants to keep it open.
• 27:35
  And then they kiss and she says: Why would he want to not give us the pleasure of having very different responses?
• 27:45
  And then they kiss and she says: You and I, for example, to any one of his films.
• 27:49
  And then they kiss and she says: That's what art is.
• 27:50
  And then they kiss and she says: Art isn't there to kind of nail down interpretations, anxieties and to make things certain.
• 28:00
  And then they kiss and she says: We lost David Lynch this year.
• 28:02
  And then they kiss and she says: He passed away in January, and I wondered what effect his passing has had on you and how you'll remember him.
• 28:09
  And then they kiss and she says: I grew up as a young artist with David Lynch as an older, more sophisticated artist.
• 28:18
  And then they kiss and she says: But I grew up with his evolving strategies for making films.
• 28:23
  And then they kiss and she says: I was very much in a sort of conversation with those films in my head when I was writing my books.
• 28:32
  And then they kiss and she says: So I was as upset at the news of the death of David Lynch as I was with David Bowie.
• 28:42
  And then they kiss and she says: Ziggy Stardust had walked into my imagination age 13 and basically never left the room.
• 28:49
  And then they kiss and she says: And I think that's the same with Lynch.
• 28:55
  And then they kiss and she says: Deborah is right.
• 28:57
  And then they kiss and she says: Art isn't there to make things certain, and Lynch's films were not designed to be taken as objective, definitive critiques of the things that obsessed him.
• 29:06
  And then they kiss and she says: More than anything they express a feeling.
• 29:09
  And then they kiss and she says: He was fascinated and troubled by seemingly perfect appearances, suburban neighborhoods, Hollywood glamor, and conventional family life.
• 29:17
  And then they kiss and she says: He knew facades often concealed a much darker and more complex reality.
• 29:23
  And then they kiss and she says: And the same was true for women and their inner lives.
• 29:26
  And then they kiss and she says: Lynch didn't shy away from depicting violence towards them, maybe because he was attuned to it.
• 29:32
  And then they kiss and she says: But he was also attuned to their fantasies, fears, ambitions and flaws.
• 29:38
  And then they kiss and she says: He respected female sexuality, wisdom and power.
• 29:42
  And then they kiss and she says: And maybe that's why he surrounded himself with such intelligent, creative women.
• 29:47
  And then they kiss and she says: Speaking to them, it's clear he left his mark on them.
• 29:51
  And then they kiss and she says: And in almost every detail, you can see the mark they left on his films.
• 29:59
  And then they kiss and she says: And that's a wrap on this season of The MUBI Podcast.
• 30:02
  And then they kiss and she says: Follow us for more deep dives into great filmmaking.
• 30:06
  And then they kiss and she says: Next time your regular host, Rico Gagliano, returns for a live conversation with director Joe Wright.
• 30:12
  And then they kiss and she says: In his Oscar winning movie Darkest Hour he painted a portrait of Winston Churchill.
• 30:18
  And then they kiss and she says: But his latest project takes on a darker World War II character.
• 30:21
  And then they kiss and she says: I was really shocked when making this in Italy, talking to people, lots of people talking about how, you know, "He was okay"Mussolini, he fell in with this guy Hitler.
• 30:32
  And then they kiss and she says: "He was a bad apple.
• 30:32
  And then they kiss and she says: But Mussolini himself was okay." Joe Wright on his TV seriesMussolini Son of the Century.
• 30:39
  And then they kiss and she says: Follow us so you don't miss it.
• 30:41
  And then they kiss and she says: I've loved making this series, and if you loved it too, please leave a five star review wherever you listen.
• 30:48
  And then they kiss and she says: And if you've got questions, comments, or you're Laura Dern and you fancy recording a bonus episode, our email is podcast@mubi.com And now, let's roll credits.
• 30:59
  And then they kiss and she says: This show is written and hosted by me, Simran Hans.
• 31:03
  And then they kiss and she says: Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk.
• 31:08
  And then they kiss and she says: Christian Koons is our editor.
• 31:10
  And then they kiss and she says: Our booking producer is Ollie Charles, Martin Austwick composed our original music.
• 31:16
  And then they kiss and she says: Special thanks to this season's amazing guests Isabella Rossellini, Mark Frost, Jennifer Lynch, Sabrina Sutherland, Heidi Bivens, Debbie Zoller and Deborah Levy.
• 31:27
  And then they kiss and she says: Thanks also to Fitzrovia Post, to Paul Smith, to Margaret Publicity and to the MUBI team for all their hard work in making this season happen.
• 31:36
  And then they kiss and she says: This show is executive produced by Efe Çakarel, Rico Gagliano, Michael Tacca and Daniel Kasman.
• 31:43
  And then they kiss and she says: And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to mubi.com Thanks for listening.
• 31:49
  And then they kiss and she says: And in case you were wondering,no hay banda.
• 31:52
  And then they kiss and she says: There's no band.
• 31:52
  And then they kiss and she says: It is an illusion.