Latest / The Uncensored Catholic / Show 81: Interview with John Kraemer/Lego Church

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Show 81: Interview with John Kraemer/Lego Church · The Uncensored Catholic

0:59
So hey, y'all, we welcome to today's show. Today I have a
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really special interview with John Kramer. I believe it's how you pronounce your last
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name is sat John yep. Okay, it's k R a E e R.
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Not like Kramer on Seinfeld, A little different. You know. He
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has been doing a really unique ministry for about I think it's twenty five years
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or so. It's called the Lego Church, and he does a lot on
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issues dealing well not just Catholic issues, but also issues with disability. He
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has i think he said, my old cerebral policy. And he's someone you
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really want to get to know, you really want to check out his work.
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Be sure to sign up for his subseec newsletter, and toward the end
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of the interview, I'm going to ask him to give all, you know,
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all the places he can be fine be found his Subsetect newsletter. He's
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on Twitter, I'm sure he's all over the place. I know he's on
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Facebook. Really really fascinating project, really interesting guy. So John, if
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you would just take away tell us about yourself, your background, and how
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you got into doing what you're doing. Well, first of all, thank
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you for having me on the program. I greatly appreciate it. My name
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is John and I'm based in Sagina Township, Michigan, which is about two
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hours north of Detroit. And what I do is every year, starting around
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February, I take about a month to two months and build a giant Catholic
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parish of my own design at a lego, all free hand and complete with
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full interior, complete with lights, people, you name it if. It
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is probably about the best representation of the church that you can find in a
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model form. And what it cann Oft boils down to is the reason why
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I'm doing this. Aside from being able to take it out to different rises
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and showcase my talents, it gives me a chance to talk about disability issues
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because I've got my own firms from a puzzy, so I'm showing no matter
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what challenge or disability you face, I can still use your talents. That
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is a message that I truly believe in and one that I live and one
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that has guided me through a lot in this life. Kind of hard to
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believe that I've been doing this for as long as I have been. Yeah,
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what was the inspiration? How'd you get started? Well? Growing up,
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I had friends that in the neighborhood, We're building these massive spaceships out
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of legos, and no matter how hard I tried, I just simply could
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not do it. But in the family life, the church was the foundation
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of it for a long time. We actually lived for about I think about
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ten years, we lived about half a block from the church, so we
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walked to church. I was a server. I helped out within the church.
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And it's kind of interesting in this case, the church is called Christ
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a Good Shepherd, although back in the day we were Saint Helen's. What's
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kind of funny is that I'm still involved in that parish even after all this
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time. So growing up, the church was the foundation. That's what we
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were involved in. So it kind of took these rudimentary ideas eventually turned it
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into these churches. And what eventually happened was is I started doing a couple
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of public displays where I actually take these creations out. There was a charismanic
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community of prayer community and Flushing called mal Zion, who I've got affiliations with,
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and they were the first ones that ever let me bring one out.
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But it really wasn't until my fourth season where I started doing the annual event
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in Christmas display at my home church, which has been going on for almost
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twenty years now. So was this something Well, first of all, how
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old were you when the cerebral policy presented? Well, I had always had
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it. It was a little bit of a late diagnosis. Didn't really get
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diagnosed until I was about eighteen or so. But but growing up I always
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had challenges related to a disability. We just weren't fully sure what they were.
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I mean we're talking, oh, gosh, a long time ago.
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I'm in my late forties now, so you're looking a long time back,
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and technology and science has come a long way to help diagnose with stuff.
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But back then, I mean, you didn't always have a clear understanding of
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what was going on. I knew something wasn't right, but you didn't exactly
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know what it was. Yeah, yeah, Well it's it's kind of interesting,
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you know. I live in a very rural, uh part of part
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of the country, and a lot of of old farmers start later in life
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showing signs of like Parkinson's and they've they're beginning to think it may be some
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of the pesticides for using on the farms. But we've also seen an increase
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in cerebral palsy among younger people. Those that you know may have had been
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affected by the same chemicals, whether in the water or it could be something
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genetic. Nobody knows exactly what's going on, So I was I was curious
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about that. Well, I lived in the city for the most part,
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I lived in I spent most of my life in Saganak, and spent a
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good number of years in the Flushing area, which is a little bit more
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of a quieter town, but still it's still still that same kind of city
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environment. So could be a number of things. All I know is that
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God has me where I am meant to be at and doing interesting things.
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Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Anytime you post a project, not only does
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it pop up on my feet, I'm like, oh, that's cool,
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you know, but I get like thirty seven to forty other people said,
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you need to take a look at this, this is really cool. So
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well, it's kind of funny because each year is its own design and building,
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and what I'll do is I'll take the time to build it and then
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I'll take it to different locations within my region. Basically, any Paris is
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willing to host me and can write transportation. Yeah. And then when I
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do the final display at Christ's a good shepherd, I'll bring it home and
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I'll tear it down. And that's usually one of the biggest jaw dropping things
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people here. You tear that thing down, Yes, and then I start
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the next project within a couple of weeks. Oh, that's cool, very
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cool. So it's kind of an interesting cycle of life, so to speak,
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to build, to share, to tear down and rebuild things again.
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And I always look forward to that because it challenges me. It challenges me
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from a technical standpoint, because I'm testing the limits with legos. It challenges
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me from a spiritual because I'm spending a lot of time praying at the bricks.
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I'm also testing the limits of the legos themselves, building it in such
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ways that I don't think the creators intended it. Yeah, I imagine you
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would have a lot of architectural features you'd really have to figure out how to
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work with. Well, the bigger challenge is keeping it sturdy enough to be
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able to survive a transport. Oh sure, yeah, which is always the
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most nerve wracking part. In fact, I've got a display coming up here
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in a little bit, and I probably will not get to the parish until
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Sunday, and I'll get to see how it survived the transport. Now,
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thankfully the priests that picked it up on the other day, he knows about
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my work. This is not my first time going to his pairs, so
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he knows what to expect and he knows how to take care of it.
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So I'm not exactly worried. It's in good hands. About what's the average
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size that you do? The projects themselves are usually around forty seven inches in
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length, twenty five inches in width, and about twenty three to twenty five
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inches to the tip of the bell tower. Wow. And it sits on
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a plywood board that is about forty eight by twenty six So you're talking about
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four feet long and a little more than two feet wide and two inches and
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two feet tall. Yeah, we're talking a very large building. Wow.
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How long does it take you to do it? I would say it kind
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of varies from year to year, but on average about a month and a
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half. Really you can do it that fast? Well? Okay, Well,
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a lot of it is experience. Yeah, I've done this so long.
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I have a set I have a set plan in my head as to
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how it will be built, what I actually do versus how it Eventually it
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turns out of something totally different, but the general general flow of things is
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very similar, and what it starts off with is just a basic grid,
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and I start mapping out where things are going to be. The ultra is
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one of the first things that gets figured out, because that actually the trust
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the church will flow around that. Literally. In fact, many times I'll
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have the back section entry away, not even fully decided, but I'll have
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the ultra bricked in enough that I can start proceeding with everything else. So
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it really is one of the first things that gets designed, and then from
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there I can have a thousand ideas, but sometimes Lord will tell me to
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go in a different direction. Neat neat, And for those of y'all who
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haven't seen these, it's not like I don't know, like a sand cast
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or something. You're not looking. Just like the outside of the edifice.
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I mean, he literally does the full interior and all the features. It's
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incredible well, and that's just I try and keep it as realistic as I
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can. Obviously, Lego has certain limitations, but there are things that I'm
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able to do and I try and incorporate a lot of different figures inside there.
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I think I've got close to two hundred and twenty figures right now,
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and I've got enough room to hold at least three hundred easy on both the
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lower half and the upper valve mean, which is kind of in an U
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shape right now. I've been doing that kind of design for the last several
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years and it's one that I like, one that kind of it's a challenge
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because on one hand it can be limiting, but on the other hand,
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it can be inviting because you can see this giant church with the two bell
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towers and you know what you're what to expect. And I've got people in
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there with all kinds of limitations. I've got a couple of service dogs inside
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there. I've got wheelchairs I've got to call powerchairs of my own design that
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I put in there, and it just really kind of highlights the fact that
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no matter what challenge or disability to face, the church should be accessible.
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Yeah. Absolutely in some ways. And a lot of it's a lot of
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that boils down to attitude and mindset. M the attitude of that we that
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you we want you to be there inside the church who want you to take
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part in the mass. Uh. I know our parish. Our parish is
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like one of the most welcoming around and they've made subtle changes here and there.
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They've taken out steps, putting in ramps and parts of the church to
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make them easier. But when you go in with that kind of mindset that
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you want to be inclusive, then everything else this kind of flows from that.
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Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So with the figures, do
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you do you have like real people in mind, I mean, like personalities
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associated with these the figures or are they more representative of a concept. I
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have a little bit of a mixture of both. The one story that I
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have is the the lady and the powershair that that's kind of featured kind of
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prominently in a lot of the photos I do. That's actually based on an
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actual person. Her name is Caitlin, and she's got some real palsy severe
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And what it happened was, I think Lego had announced that they were going
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to do the wheelchairs, and I was sitting from my spot in the choir,
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I saw her and her mom, and I was trying to brainstorm the
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entire mass. Could I build a powerchair of my own design. Could I
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actually make a powerchair? Yeah, because the wheelchairs hadn't been released yet and
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I wanted to get something into one of the projects. And I think I
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took a couple hours and I came up with a feasible prototype. So that's
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kind of based on an actual person. I've used figures in the past for
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priests representative of different pastors that I know. Same with the organist is it's
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like anyone can end up as a lego figure at some point, and even
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I'm sitting in there somewhere. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. I do a
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little bit of a carving and whittling, and you know, mostly these days
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I'm working on spoons and kitchen utensils, but I do some figures sometimes and
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it's really, really is funny. I'll start off on a project and I'll
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be carving, you know, a little guy or something, and I won't
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think anything of it, and maybe I post a post online. And the
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most recent time this happened, I'm on a forum somewhere. There's a guy
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named John. He's got he's a hillbilly like me, but he's got long
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hair and a long beard, you know, sort of like zz Top or
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something, and everybody on there's like, you carved a John. I'm like,
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I totally did not even mean to do that. Well, for for
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a long time, there was one priest figure that I was using that was
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representative of the priest that was at our church at that time, and when
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he retired, I took that figure out of circulation. Okay, but the
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but the funny part was that everyone knew everyone in the church knew that that
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I was using uh father Emmatt as a representation inside my work. Okay,
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but that was and sometimes that's a way of saying thanks, yeah, absolutely,
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yeah for being a support of and and Caitlin and her mom know that
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they're they're inside the project. They know that. Okay. I'm always open
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about it. I don't hide anything, but people see a lot of themselves
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inside there anyway. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Well, I
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think it's it's a fascinating project. You know, my grandfather died of Luke
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Garrick's disease, and so we had a lot of experience with wheelchairs and a
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lot of experience with a lot of the well this was the late eighties,
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early nineties, so pretty primitive technology at the time. Going church was not
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an option for him, and that was a big, you know, big
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disappointment for him. Once he lost the ability to walk, he could not
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get up the stairs to the church. So when I found out about what
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you're doing, I thought, you know, this is a good project.
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This is a good project because it gives people sort of a different view of
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well, the accessibility of a church. Well. And I think a lot
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of the things that I've learned is from what we're doing in our own church.
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I don't think you have to make a lot of depending on the building,
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I don't think you have to make a lot of dramatic changes. Yeah.
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For what we did is, yeah, our main entry away, we've
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got a lot of stairs that you have to climb up. But as you
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head towards the alter area of the church, there's a couple of side entrances
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that are easily accessible from the parking lot. And all they did was they
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just made things a little easier for wheelchairs to come in. Nothing overly dramatic.
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They had to do some major concrete work anyway, and they figured since
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they were going to be doing all this work, they might as well just
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go ahead and make a few changes. Years ago, they modified one of
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the bathrooms so it'd be easier accessible. And this was like, oh man,
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a long time ago that they did this. So but once again,
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it starts at the attitude that is when I've run into stuff, when I
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talk to people about stuff, the biggest challenge is not the accommodation themselves.
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It's coming up with that attitude that, yeah, we want to be more
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open, you want to be more welcoming. How do we do this?
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And it doesn't have to be dramatic expensive, it can be very subtle.
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I've got in my case, I've got balance issues. There there are days
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when walking is a challenge and a half. But and I'm able. But
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the fact is I can walk up a ramp in the back of the church,
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go to where I need to and not have those barriers interfering with my
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ability. I've got a clear path of travel to where I need to go.
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I've got a priest who was very well aware that I've got issues and
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will bring these community in where I'm sitting in the fire section. If he
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realizes that I'm there, he is there, that's good. Yeah. One
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thing I will say about my grandfather's church. You know, eventually he got
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to where he couldn't go at all. But you know, he was completely
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paralyzed except for his eyes and a digestive system for the last like I guess,
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five years of his life. But they actually had a ministry and the
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young men and some of the youth would take part in it. Uh,
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Like I said, it was just stairs, you'd actually get two guys come
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pick the wheelchair up and carry the person up the stairs and take him in.
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Yeah. And they had and guides for the blind and all that.
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And you know, on the one hand, whereas the church is more accessible
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now, I really wish it was more of that volunteerism. You know,
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I think we could do a lot to kind of get especially young people involved
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because where I live it's es mostly a retirement area. The Catholic Church is,
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you know, that's it. I think we could get a lot of
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more of the young people involved and start sort of a mentorship relationship between young
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and all the young kind of help the older the disabled and the and the
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older the disabled instruct and teach and share with the with the young people.
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I think it would be a fantastic thing in any parish. I think that.
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I think that's very important I think there's a lot that those of us
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with disabilities can teach people to help them think of a mindset that in areas
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that they are moral, wouldn't you look into especially when it comes to the
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obvious physical ones, are sometimes the the mental health issues as well. Yeah,
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true, how the mental health can impact us and a lot of that
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stuff can go in and hand. I've certainly learned this myself, and I
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think people when they when people hear about disability, they have this conception of
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what it is. And I think we have to change a little bit about
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how we think about it in what terms, because some people see their challenges
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and disabilities as a limitation, others don't. And we have to take each
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person where they're at and understand understand that each person has their own challenges and
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they know how to work with it. And if you've got questions asked,
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and particularly me, if they see that I'm having an issue, what do
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I need for them to do to be able to help me? Sure?
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And that's just and I've had to learn a lot. I've had to learn
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a lot about myself, and that's part of the reason why I keep doing
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this ministry, because I'm bringing I'm able to use the project as a way
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to open doors to conversations. One of the bigger issues I talk about is
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transportation within the church. Yeah, definitely. As someone who doesn't drive,
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that can be as that can be an epic struggle. Sometimes I'm thankful for
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what I have, but I know that not everyone is as fortunate as I
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am. So it's an unrealized need that I'd like to see more done because
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I think that it's an untapped evangelization as well. Yeah, I agree,
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And it's also a very diverse topic. I mean, you've got physical disabilities
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and then you've got like I mean recently in a parish I was in and
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there was a fellow who severely paranoid schizophrenic. And I mean when someone's acting
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strange in the corner, people have a natural tendency to stare at them.
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Well, that's not something you want to do with a paranoid schizophrenic. Yeah.
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Either there's or somewhat autism too, Yes, yes, autism, You've
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got You've got a family in our church whose whose son is autistic. And
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but that stuff doesn't bother me because I mean I've certainly seen I've certainly had
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my own moments I've had severe anxiety attacks. Well in the middle of the
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mass, Well, that wouldn't be fun. You know what, though,
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I don't mind going to Mass when I'm not one hundred percent because I know
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that those are the times where I need to be at Mass the most.
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Those are the times when when the Lord will will work through me in ways
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that I otherwise would not see. Case in point, this past weekend,
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I was in a very high anxiety state because this is mine own stuff.
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But I felt at peace when I was at the church, being able to
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sing, being to be able to just listen, or in my case,
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when when my mind feels like I'm losing a track of what's going on,
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I start looking at the staying glasses in our church. Yeah, I know
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what you mean. That's a great comfort. And you know, it's it
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becomes back to the beatitudes. I mean, you know, there are people
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who are going to be disabled, people can be sick, and it's a
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privilege to help them and care for them and blessed her both the you know,
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the disabled was sick and those they are the caretakers. Yeah, and
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it's you know, it's always a joy for me when I know that I'm
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able to help someone with my work. Yeah. Yeah. A case in
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point last year when I was doing when I was visiting a parish in actually
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a rural community of Saint Louis, Michigan, which is about an hour from
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me, that's farm land area, m and a mother or a grandmother brought
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her grandson over and I was doing to see them twenty three display over there,
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and they came up to me after Mass and told me that that hearing
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my story about my own challenge with serbal palsy, I had given them hope
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for their grandson. Excellent. Uh. There have been times where many years
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ago, actually at the parashomy going at this coming weekend, Uh, there
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was a lady who had brought her neighbor who's got severe disabilities. And you
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know, I still I'm still touched by this, even after all this time,
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to be able to see the kid looking at my project and his eyes
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lighting up. Because when you walk in, when you walk into a room
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and you see this, you see this from a distance, and it is
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massive, it is it is a giant. The pictures that post on here,
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even when you see pictures of me in it, I mean, I'm
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a fairly big followed myself. But the pictures don't do this justice. No,
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agree, I had no idea it was four feet long. Yeah,
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I don't build small things. That's good. How about if you go ahead
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and give us all your information, you're URLs and where people can find Okay,
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be'st place to find me is praying at the bricks on substick. You
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can find me under a lego church project. On both Facebook and Twitter,
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those are the probably the best ways to find me. I tend to post
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a lot of pictures, especially on Twitter. I've been known for posting pictures
26:32
threads, so but on the Facebook page, I've got pictures of all twenty
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four seasons, and the last few of them you actually get to see how
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this thing was actually built. Oh cool, great, Yeah, well John
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to Telly, I really enjoyed this. I'd really like to have you back
26:49
sometime, and I want everybody you know go check out his work. This
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is really cool and I think what you're gonna get is it's going to inspire
26:57
you. And that stuff that that's that's just a that's a what is that
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that's a terrorism in and of itself, you know. So, Yeah,
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I really did enjoy this and I appreciate you coming on. Thank you for
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having me, really appreciate it. Yeah, sure, anytime, Stay in touch.