Latest / What You Have Seen and Heard / Interview with Rev. Zach Kingery

Transcript

Interview with Rev. Zach Kingery · What You Have Seen and Heard

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of What You Have Seen and Heard.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Today, I want to be sure this is clear.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is an unofficial podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I happen to be a Global Methodist pastor in Marcus, Iowa,
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: in the Upper Midwest Conference of the Global Methodist Church,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: but it is an unofficial podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can't overstate how unbelievably unofficial this is.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Travis.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to start the question kind of the same way I start
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: with all these questions is, can you tell us your story?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a bit about how it is you became a Christian or you began
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: to take your Christian faith seriously.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in Kansas in a rural area,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Greenwood County, Kansas, and one of the more poor counties in the state.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Grew up in a family of five and my dad's a farmer.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: My mom worked as a paraprofessional at the And so growing up,
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: we went to church regularly at a little Wesleyan church in
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyan denomination.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it was in this middle of nowhere town called Lamont, Kansas.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those unincorporated villages that we have dotting our rural areas
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: across the United States.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: But there was a small little Wesleyan church there.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I grew up going to that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was primarily my mother that took us to church.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so my brothers and my sister, we grew up going to that.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like a lot of our rural and small town churches,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: when you have a smaller congregation,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: For a while,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: there was a group of us that was primarily extended family and a few others
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: that were going to it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a place that really nurtured who I was.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was thankful to grow up with some distant cousins that were also regularly attending.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in a very small church,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: but then it began to grow and we got more kids and more families starting to come.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I had people that just intentionally invested in that church and in our faith.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really kind of how I grew up, coming to know Jesus.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was something that was just a normal thing.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: We were just being taught, who is Jesus?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for you?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it mean to be someone who follows Jesus?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were intentional about,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: even when we did VBS, they had like a Bible memorization competition.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, which was training us at an early age,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: not only to hide God's word in our heart,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: but part of it was you have to go out into the community and recite this verse
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: to people.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then they signed the little booklet that you're given.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they were helping us to learn as young,
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: young kids How to take God's word out of the community, share it with others.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when I was little, I was just in it for the prize, right?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to win that thing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it also helped kind of coach us over that fear of, well...
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know how to share our faith.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so often those verses were tied to the Romans road and other things like that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we're hiding God's word in our heart.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're learning how to share it with others.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then who in the community is going to tell some nine-year-old that's excited
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: to quote a verse to them, no, I don't want to hear it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was one, a good move on their part.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But two, it helped us as kids learn that this is something that we should be doing.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm somebody who loves to read, and so I really enjoy reading.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: When I got into about middle school,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: then it was,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: am I just going to church because I'm supposed to be going to church kind of thing?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And am I doing this because my mom takes me to church?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the intellectual kind of philosophical debate of,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm probably just a Christian because that's the predominant religion in this area.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And had I grown up somewhere else,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that I would,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: if I grew up in this area of the world,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be into Taoism or Buddhism or all these different philosophical thoughts.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: So then I began to wrestle with,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: is religion just this philosophical idea in search for meaning?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Which, you know,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: reflecting back on that,
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that there would be a lot of people who would assume that
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: a seventh grader isn't thinking about those things.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, they're just kids.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was just a kid.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that there wasn't much depth to those thoughts other than me simply just having them.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I went like during study hall in school,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: went to a small school, you know, I had a graduating class of 13 people.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: But during study hall,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would go to the library and my schoolwork would already be done pretty quickly.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would just read books on world religions and I'd look at encyclopedias
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: and try to trace the roots of, well, here, you know, we have the Christian faith.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where did that come from?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so where did Judaism come from?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like trying to trace it back.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: On this search for truth and thankfully We had a new pastor that had come when I was
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: in sixth grade and he was very open to questions.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: He was also an intellectual person.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would come with these questions and I would ask him different things.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he would always just sit down,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: listen to me, ask me questions to get to kind of what I was asking.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've always struggled with being concise.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: longer conversations where he's asking questions and then he would point me to
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: a resource.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And say, well, here's a good book to read.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it was something that he knew.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so he'd say, like, look at this part, read this and tell me what you think.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so he invited me to wrestle with it, which I really appreciated.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then because I'm also with that middle school angst,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like early teenage years, then it's, all right, so what is truth?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got the predominant religions of Christianity and Islam and like
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: who says what is right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just given space.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: To wrestle through those things, but in a respectful way.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And all at the same time,
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: still continuing to be at a church that was,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: when I was really young,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: was looking at closure,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: but had,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: because this congregation,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: even before they had a full-time pastor come, this congregation was really...
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just like, hey, we're here for a purpose.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're not just going through the motions.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're going out.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeking people.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're bringing them into life together.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're drawing them closer to the Lord.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I grew up in a church that had a growing vibrancy.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so that helped, one,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: fuel my angst,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: because while people are coming and either this is real or it isn't,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: and we're lying to everyone, or there's something here.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so those two kind of seventh and eighth grade years were very formative for me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Asked a lot of questions, but also participating in a vibrant church.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so my search for faith and search for truth...
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: was also matched with a pivotal time of seeing other people come to the Lord
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: and hearing their experiences of why they're being baptized or why they've come
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: to faith in Christ.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that also helped me wrestle with All right,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think growing up it was just something I grew up in,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: but I really need to come to know who Jesus is.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And not just an idea, but like when Jesus says to the disciples, who do you say I am?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had to have that moment.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Who do I say Jesus is?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And is he these other things or is he the Christ?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was also helpful going to things like church camp.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was in the Wesleyan denomination, so we had Wesleyan students from all over.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Originally,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: it was Colorado,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Nebraska,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: and Kansas,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: and then Kansas grew large enough just to have its own 400 and some students.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we would come together for church camp.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was in the Wesleyan denomination.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: They did a really good job at the time creating this culture of you wanted to go,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: you wanted to belong, you wanted to participate.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing college students from Oklahoma Wesleyan come.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of that helped me then feel led toward it.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, there must be something here.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm not one that says that powerful preaching is going to save everyone on the planet.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think if it could have, it would have.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a culmination of all of it,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: but then plainly hearing God's word shared and then having them ask that question,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: do you believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just one thing.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was all of those things with this moment of either I'm in it or I'm not.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And have I ever really surrendered to Christ?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Not just praying the prayer because I was coached through it,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: but that Jesus, are you truly the Lord of my life?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so in between that seventh to eighth grade year, I had that moment.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at church camp, which sounds cliche, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like this big emotional experience at camp.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And mine wasn't necessarily this big emotional experience like around a campfire
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: during a final worship service.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mine was I heard the word preached plainly.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: There was the question that was given, essentially, do you believe this?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then instead of some big altar call thing,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: mine was we closed out the service and then I went and I just went and kind
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: of thought for a while.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ended up talking to my pastor in the little cabin that he was staying in at the church camp.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And having some of those questions and then just kind of a settling in my heart.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that he did die for my sins.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then just a simple like, all right, Lord, I'm in.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was this feeling of just.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate Wesley's words, my heart strangely warmed, but mine was different than that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a heart strangely warmed.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a warm heart that had been lit on fire kind of thing.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it had reached that critical mass and just,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: and then on the way back, like I just couldn't help but talk about it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was just this, man, like I'm, this is different.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then feeling like, why don't other people feel this way about Jesus?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't it like, you know, that like, where is everyone else on fire like this?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was a pretty quick understanding of, oh yeah, they're definitely here.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I saw growing up that people come to the Lord.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: These are like,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: now I'm remembering their testimonies and where I viewed it with an eye of suspicion
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: before, now I get it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like that kind of thing.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a long way to answer your question of how did I come to Christ.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't one in a nurturing church where people highly invested in us.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Two, it was in a church that had growing vibrancy.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Three, it was in a space where I was allowed to wrestle and ask questions.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of being told, What to think.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was invited to wrestle with what I was thinking.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of that being matched with just kind of that who do you say I am feeling.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: It happened through preaching.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: It happened through conversations, but it also happened with the Lord speaking that in my life.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you say I am?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So for anybody that's listening to this,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: if you have those students that are a little bit rebellious,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: maybe talk back too much,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: are asking those hard questions but are engaged,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: lean into it, ask them questions, and invite them.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, help them to see the things that are happening.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was one of my problems.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to see what was actually going on.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was viewing it with suspicion.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can't tell someone to see it, but you can ask questions and invite them to see it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so again, it wasn't a John Wesley heart strangely warmed.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was more coming alive, being on fire.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a scale falling from my eyes in one moment.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was this gradual approach.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: But when it happened, it happened.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I still look back fondly on that because I definitely was bold
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: and had little understanding.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to tell people, hey, do you know that Jesus loves you?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then not much to follow up after that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: If they're like, yes, I say praise the Lord.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: If they're like, whatever, I'd be like, well, I hope you know Jesus and walk away kind of thing.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And thankfully it moved on from there.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's how I came to faith.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And man, now that I'm reflecting back on that more, it's kind of reigniting this desire.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to see more congregations that have that kind of stuff going on.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because how many young people are sitting in church going through the motions
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: and not,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: if they're not hearing it,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: not just proclaiming a sermon,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: but if they're not hearing other people share what's going on,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: if they do have that come to Jesus moment, they're going to feel really alone.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Something you said makes me think about there's one or two places in the Gospel
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: of John where it's remarked upon that they're telling something that Jesus said.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, we didn't understand this at the time.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: But after Jesus was glorified, then we knew.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's one of the amazing things that I've heard in my own life
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: and I've heard from other folks is that you can have these experiences
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: and they can be what they are.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then you don't realize what God was doing until you kind of cross over
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: that threshold and you look back on it and it changes everything.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I'll talk about with churches is looking back at the history of
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: the congregation and where they've been, what they've done, that kind of thing.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Often they just think about their building projects,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: like, oh, well, we built this thing or did this thing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, I want to know those legend moments where—
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Someone said something or did something that changed the direction of
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: where you were headed because God intervened.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like God, the Lord's the one that did this.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: They use that person to do it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it changed the direction of the whole congregation.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And those happen often in small ways.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, hey, we,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know, yeah,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: we thought we were making a decision on this,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: but it was actually the Lord that was doing something big.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't seem like it in the moment.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But look at the result.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the fruit of what God did.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so think about your own life.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Think about your own ministry.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: What's that small thing that changed the direction of And then talk about it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: It might seem innocuous, but talk about it.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll hear other people share the same thing.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just last year, this congregation that I serve celebrated 150 years of a presence here.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, more than one building, all the rest.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever we looked through the historical documents,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I found myself really frustrated because I wanted to hear the stories of
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: the faithfulness and all those kind of things.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: But the only thing we ever bothered to write down is we voted this much to build
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: a new building,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: or we voted this way to do this,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: or the building was destroyed, and we were so tied up in the building.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's tangible, because you can document it fairly easily.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the same time,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: the sexual ingenerations,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: we don't get to know about the wonderful saints who have lived and died in faith.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: You built this thing, great.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: What was the process that led up to saying yes to building this?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: What are the stories of people that had to surrender their preferences or
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: that Holy Spirit moment?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: That said, this is the direction we're going to go.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: That matters so much more than the result of what's been like, oh, here's what we built.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a brick and mortar thing or it's a wood framing thing.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to hear about the spiritual journey that happened that led to that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this what was built?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the unfortunate aspect of some of that is, well, it was what made most sense at the time.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like, okay, well, good.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad we need to steward what we have.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be practical people.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: But when I think about the church that I grew up in,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: there were times where decisions were made,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: but those decisions were preceded by so much discernment.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: The decision didn't make sense outside of the discernment.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a spiritual process where people were coming together.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they were talking about what is practical and how do we be good stewards,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: but also what is the Lord calling us to do?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, you parted the Red Sea before.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't you part the Jordan?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: You got to go stick your feet in it this time.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be the same every single time.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to discern what is the Lord calling us to do.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then write those things down.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Write down the,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: we spent how many days in prayer in the last month coming up to this decision?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sister so-and-so said this word, and it really caused us to rethink that.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of thing.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are the, when we look at scripture, those are the things that like, that's powerful.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: In Acts,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: where they were meeting for prayer,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: worship,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: and fasting, and then the Holy Spirit said, set aside for me Barnabas and Saul.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't just write down, we decided to send out Barnabas and Saul.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Praise the Lord, they didn't just record that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: What was the process that led up to them being sent out that then changed the course
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: and face of the Christian movement that eventually led them into Europe,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera, et cetera.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not currently serving as a pastor, but you are in full-time vocational ministry.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: What's your story of God calling you, you hearing that call into vocational ministry?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So growing up in that church, I felt a calling into ministry.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was that same in middle school, either I'm in or I'm out.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so going all in then led to continued wrestling.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like, man,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be a biology teacher in school and also maybe coach junior high
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: or high school football as offense coordinator or something.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: That was my thought going into my junior year of high school.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right, what's the course of my life going to take?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be a believer in Jesus.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'll probably go to one of the state schools in Kansas.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to become a teacher.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I like biology.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll do these things.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's because I enjoyed football and I enjoyed my offensive lineman coach
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: and connected well.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he was also very encouraging and said, hey, you'd be good at this.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, all right, maybe that's what I'll do.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So those were things that because someone said like, hey,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I see this in you,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: then it very much was like,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: well, then I should really consider going and doing this.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then matching that with some discernment, Lord, what am I really called to do?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew the proclivities that I had within myself of,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm not all the way in this, I'll probably drift away.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, so Lord, what does it look like to be all in?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I wrestled with, am I called to be a teacher or am I called to something else?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that wrestling then led me to,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: even though I went into college undecided,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that I was called to pastoral ministry in some way.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And even then, that wasn't quite the right fit.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just knew it was ministry.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was supposed to go in and be all in and doing something for the Lord.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I look back on that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Had it been discerned that I would have become a teacher and that kind of thing,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would have still been effective in advancing the kingdom of God.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that if you wrestle with, well, should I do this or that?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a matter of discernment.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Both of them were good, but what is the best good?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: When people wrestle with those things,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: where you're looking at two decisions,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: both of them can glorify, honor the Lord, and advance His kingdom.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the best good that God has for you?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because both are good.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to have to go a direction and then eventually change course
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: if you know, hey, this wasn't what I was supposed to be doing.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're flawed.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: We get it wrong sometimes.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrestled with that and then said, all right, Lord, let's be all in.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Oklahoma Wesleyan.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyans were good at creating this culture of call where you wanted to go
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: to Wesleyan church camps.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: You wanted to go to their district gathering every year.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: You wanted to go to Oklahoma Wesleyan, which was the one in my area.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: The Wesleyan Church was a few approved universities,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Indiana Wesleyan, Oklahoma Wesleyan, others.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was two hours from Oklahoma Wesleyan, so I said, all right, I'm going to go there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I went in undecided,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: but I knew I was called the ministry of some capacity,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: and then eventually went into the pastoral ministry track.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: But proclivities toward teaching.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I feel some draw to this.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have some natural talents in preaching and teaching.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like to read.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can usually take information, then convey it well in a way that's understandable.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so went for pastoral ministry and And graduated from Oklahoma Wesleyan with
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: a pastoral ministry and biblical studies degree.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was their – that meant I had to take all their Bible courses and all their things.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Loved my four semesters of Greek that I took.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I say, you know, I hope you heard the slight sarcasm in that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was fruitful.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I needed it.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: But parsing sentences isn't my favorite.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it was really good.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So graduated from there and stepped into pastoral ministry after that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And while doing it, you know, did my internship, that kind of thing.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been in pastoral ministry in various aspects since 2009.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Moved to Kansas City, did some work in Nazarene Theological Seminary while working jobs.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Was in a Wesleyan church for a while.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Life took us to Fargo,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: North Dakota,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: so I stopped my master's work,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: stepped out of the church that I was serving,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: and it was a secular job that took us to Fargo.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at that time, I'll Married, we're looking at, are we going to start a family?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: How are we going to do that?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a lot of debt from undergrad.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: What should we do?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Job opportunity opened up for my wife in Fargo.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we took it, moved there.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: No family in the area, no friends, no Wesleyan church, which the Wesleyan world is amazing.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I get a secular job.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: My wife's working a secular job.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I start volunteering in the church and build discipleship stuff.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then after a little bit,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like, all right, I'm ready to step back into full-time ministry.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: We had bought a foreclosed house, and we're ready to sell it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: That way we can pay off all of our student debt, that kind of thing.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then during that time also had been,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: all right, Lord, so what am I called to do in ministry?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Where am I called to go?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And having been now in pastoral ministry,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: knowing that it's not the perfect fit for me,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: but it's really the only – It's the only thing that I'd ever seen.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: You preach every Sunday.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: You lead the meetings.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're in all the stuff.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're being a pastor.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what my idea of being a pastor was.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's my idea of you either have pastoral ministry or you have missions work.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's pretty much it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was my perspective.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that was a perspective that was based in my own ignorance.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't looking for what else exists in ways to serve the Lord other than getting
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: a secular job and having marketplace ministry, which is good.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: But knowing that pastoral ministry wasn't the exact right fit for me,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: but saying, well, this is the way it is.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And ready to step back into full-time ministry.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: My wife and I, we then started a family.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now we've got two small kids.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: We bought that house.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was foreclosed, flipped it, selling it, paying off all of our debt.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: But we had really sensed the Lord is moving.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying, this is the time to step back into ministry.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so saying, all right, we've discerned this, Lord.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've been praying.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: We've been fasting.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now's the time.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've been looking for jobs in the Wesleyan Church,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: and there weren't any available at the time that matched the area that we were in.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't really,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: we didn't feel called to move to upstate New York where the open churches were in
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyan denomination.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it came down to this moment of essentially being told there's no open doors
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: for you in the Wesleyan denomination at the moment.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And all right,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: well, Lord, we've sensed this is the time to say yes to stepping all in in ministry.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trusting that we have discerned correctly.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we still, we sold our house and we did the wonderful millennial thing.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is in 2016.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: In spring,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: we sold our house and we moved into my wife's parents' basement in Sioux Falls,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: South Dakota.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Very millennial, moving to the basement.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we did that for a few months while I searched for a full-time ministry job.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that led to, I'd applied to some different churches.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got a phone call saying,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: hey, would you be willing to have a conversation with this person?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: His name's Roger Spahr.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to talk to you about some open churches.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never heard of Roger Spahr.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know who was calling me or why.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, yeah, I'd be open to that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was already talking to some other churches and other opportunities outside
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyan Church.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, well, somebody must have passed along my resume.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so Roger Spahr calls me on the phone and he's like,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was wondering if you'd be,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've got,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I heard,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: he's like, I hear you like rural churches because you've got to hold my resume.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, I have a couple of them for you to look at.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Would you consider a United Methodist Church?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, before you say no,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: and that was how he had the conversation with me,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: because it was very plain on my resume, who I am, what I'm about.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he was in the Wesleyan denomination.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so he told me about himself and everything else.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, all right, we'll look at him.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that led...
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: This long journey of pastoral ministry,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: stepping out of it,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: stepping back into it, because I wanted to be in smaller town or rural churches.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the trip to Fargo,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: this is a weird way to tell a story,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: but going to Fargo and then being able to pay off our debt.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And mine was just undergrad.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even have a seminary degree at this point.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have grad work on top of it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had been paying for my short stint at NTS in cash.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's hard to go into congregations with all of that debt riding over you.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So thankfully,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: we were able to sell that house,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: pay off all of our debt, go in to a church debt-free, starting at zero.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Praise the Lord.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: But said yes to Roger Spahr and these rural congregations,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: and that brought me into the United Methodist Church,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: which was an interesting foray because even though I didn't grow up
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: with anyone telling this to me,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: We were in a different denomination, and for lack of better words, we had everything right.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: We had everything right.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And no one ever told me that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: No one ever said, don't look at other denominations.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: But kind of when you grow up, just like, hey, this is a group of people.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a culture.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want to belong.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then stepped into a different denomination and found out that
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyan Church was right.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: They did have everything right.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, different world, different realm.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then seeing their perspective on what pastoral ministry looks like.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Still wrestling with that, is this the right fit for me for vocational ministry?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that led to, I got a passion for rural and small town churches.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes all the way back to,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: as I was discerning my call on whether or not I'm called to pastoral ministry,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was freshman year of college.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: They said, well, what are you called to do?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have a good answer.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Most people were saying, be a pastor.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And my response was, I feel like I'm called to the dead, the dying, and the forgotten.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that means.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so then this gave me the opportunity to see how other denomination does church,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: what they think about what a pastor is,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: their model of ecclesiology, everything else.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that led me to talking about rural ministry a lot.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then going around and speaking at rural churches about why the rural church matters.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it mean to have a missiological perspective of a rural congregation?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is your church's mission and purpose?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just to exist.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just to maintain.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm talking about these things and then,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Well,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I should probably finish my MDiv and did that with an emphasis in rural missiology.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: But then wrestling with this.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: So pastoral ministry.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love serving a local congregation.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm also called to the dead, the dying, and the forgotten.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that mean?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was like this resurgence of what I had said back freshman year
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: in impromptu response came flooding back
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: while I'm serving these rural congregations, the United Methodist Church.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, well, maybe it's a wider calling to just rule in small town America.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: but with an emphasis on Whatever the size of community you're in,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: your church is there to be not just a place that's a preaching point,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: but a place for people to flood out of into the community with the gospel
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: of Jesus Christ.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so that led to me then,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: even though I was in the UMC at the time,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: talking about the rural church and these different things,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: that led me to reconnecting with a pastor, friend,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: and mentor,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Steve McVeigh, who had started an organization called Dirt Roads Network.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Dirt Roads Network's calling.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: They believe that every community deserves a life-giving,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bible-believing, community-transforming church.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he started that at the end of 2018,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: got it going in 2019,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: then it kind of changed directions with COVID in 2020, all at the same time.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had started talking about rural ministry in the Dakotas Conference of the UMC in
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: a very similar way.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm sharing these things in the Dakotas Conference of the UMC.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's doing Dirt Roads Network in the Wesleyan Church.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then saying, all right, I see what's coming.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: We see what's coming in the UMC.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Theologically, practically, I can't go that direction.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what needs to happen?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I called up Steve at Der Roads Network.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Steve, this is kind of what's going on, which, of course, he was aware of it.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is what's going on.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: This was before we had the name Global Methodist, but the split was happening.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, hey, this is going to happen.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many churches are going to go.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had this phone conversation with them.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I said that what this group of people is going to need isn't a new denomination name.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: They need a new heart and understanding of what it means to be the church.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I think Dirt Roads Network.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is what they're going to need to hear and what we do.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it wasn't we at the time, but what y'all do.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, hey, I understand.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I hear you.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was just in the Wesleyan denomination.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Dirt Rose Network at the time was just in the Wesleyan church.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I think you're right.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're the guy to do it, but I can't pay you.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And a small organization, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my joke is always, rural ministry is where the money's at.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope everyone hears that with the loving sarcasm behind it because it's not.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, I can't pay you.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'll figure that out.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that led to me stepping out of pastoral ministry to partner with Dirt Roads Network.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm appointed an extension ministry for the Global Methodist Church to Dirt Roads Network.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I raise all my own funds like a missionary to do work in rural and small town America.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because we do believe that every community deserves a life-giving,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Bible-believing, community-transforming church.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a congregation there, then that's who you're called to be.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's not that in that community,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: then let's network our vibrant churches together to plant in that area.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are called not just to maintain our churches,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: but to remember that the dead, the dying, and the forgotten exist.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't go and invite them into life with Christ, then the dead stay dead.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if we are not moved by that compassion and that conviction,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: then friends, what are we doing?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our churches don't exist just to maintain, just to be present in the community.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're there to bring life to the community.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that led, all of that is to say, I now work with Dirt Roads Network.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the things that I do.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: My title is ambassador because we just didn't have a good thing to call what we're doing.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do all things Dirt Rodents Network in the global Methodist church.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we work with rural and small town pastors.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: We work with
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because again,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: we don't think you're there just to be a preaching point where people come into
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: the church.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're a missionary outpost that, yes,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: should have vibrant preaching,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it sends people out into the community,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: into the county and beyond to share the gospel.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because rural America is a mission field,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: and we can talk about that,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: but Travis says it was probably the longest way I could answer that question
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: on what do you do now?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that does raise a question.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure I don't lose sight of this because if you have,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: if someone wants to know more about Dirt Roads Network, I'm happy to put...
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can put down in the description links for various things.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got anything you want to direct people to,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: you can send it to me on email,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I'll make sure I put it down in the description so people can learn more
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: about what it is you do, what Dirt Roads Network does.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: I remember,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: just as my kind of commercial for Dirt Roads Network,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: at our first annual conference in New York,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Steve was there and he was talking about the difference between
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: He had called it an urban versus rural mindset,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: and then he was realizing that there's been some pushback about the labels,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: but he was describing two ways of looking at things,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I remember sitting there going,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: oh my goodness,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: my administrative council is split between those two,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: and that's explaining why we were having some disagreements of philosophy and
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: which way to go,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I found it just to be hugely illuminating,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I think that There was somebody,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember who it was who said,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: but they said that in America,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: those who are poor often don't think of themselves as poor.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: They think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: That someday they're gonna get it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes the way we talk about Churches in America is that we have,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: it's almost like we're all megachurches deep down inside.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: We all really want to be megachurches in one way or another.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Pastors certainly want to be megachurch pastors.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then we kind of use that as our standard for what is excellent.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we lose sight of the fact that the majority of people in America,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: to speak of nowhere else, are going to churches that have a membership of under 200.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we disproportionately throw our resources at chasing something
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: that statistically most churches are not So I want to make sure I kind of promote
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: that as well.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not only is it you might get struck by lightning before you become a megachurch.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not only is there that,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: but if megachurches were effective,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: America does them better than almost anywhere else.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: If megachurches and the megachurch movement was going to save America,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would have happened.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that is built on preaching.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: We want to have that effective preacher teacher up front,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: that rock star pastor that says the right things in the right way.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: There are hundreds of those being,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: not only can you go attended in person,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Not only can you stream it live while it's happening,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: but then you can go on YouTube,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Instagram,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok, Instagram, like all the things, and hear clips or the entire sermon.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if megachurches and if the best sermon were going to save America,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would have happened.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: It would have happened.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: We'd do it better than almost anywhere else.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: But when you talk to so many people about how they came to Christ
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: and what really affected change in their life, like real...
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Being transformed by the renewing of their minds.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Where does that happen?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't happen from just attending a church service.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: It happens by walking with people.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Getting close with them as you center yourselves around Christ
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: and really working out life together as you follow Jesus.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so do I hate megachurches?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think the season of megachurch is coming to an end.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think people are beginning to realize that, yes,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe this was a moment,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: but until we can really begin to get people into groups
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: that center themselves around Jesus,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: then we're going to have just a consumer church.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what I don't want people to hear is that, well,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: we have a small congregation that automatically means we're centered on Christ.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a small congregation of 20 people and be just as consumeristic as
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: a congregation of 20,000 people,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: where you come,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: you sit,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: you listen,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: you go home,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: and the only difference between you and your pagan neighbor is that you gave up
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: an hour, an hour and a half on your Sunday.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that sounds extremely harsh.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a reality.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say your pagan neighbor,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: just because we're in America,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't mean that they're saved and they're walking in the grace
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Largely,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: we have people that say,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in God, but it's a God and God is nature and morality.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: I live a comfortable life.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everything must be OK. And I pray when I have an emergency.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a little bit – it's not even more than paganism.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that sounds harsh,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: but I think if we really have our eyes uncovered to what we see in Scripture,
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: what we see in primitive Christianity,
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: or those that
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: in different ways throughout history have rediscovered primitive Christianity,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: like our beautiful Wesleyan Methodist roots, they tap into a power that is not us.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also not, quote unquote, universe.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: They get connected with the Holy Spirit in such a way that causes people to be able
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: to begin to walk in sanctification and move with the Lord.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And like when we were talking about this earlier a little bit,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: that they begin to serve with joy.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm rambling now, Travis.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so you're kind of touching on kind of the other question
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: that I decided – this is not part of my original plan,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I've asked it of everybody so far,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I've decided I'm going to ask it on purpose.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that is – and again, you made a comment.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not here to kind of get down on any particular person or whatever.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: We are here to call people to holiness and to discipleship.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that I have felt – You know,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: you've been, especially if you've seen a bunch of churches, right?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not trying to pick on any one place.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look across a variety of churches that you've experienced,
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know, is there something that is kind of a common place?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sickness that is faced by churches.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because you made the comment about,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: one of the things that I know that there's a concern about is just
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: because somebody is part of a denomination that they believe
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: to be faithful doesn't mean that the church,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: the congregation is being faithful, doesn't mean the person is being faithful.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so like what,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: if there was a sickness that we need to treat,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know we could probably list a bunch of them because,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: especially if you're pastors, we have no end of things we can complain about.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: But if there's something that strikes you as being something that is Difficult at
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: the core of many congregations that needs to be worked on.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: The answer is discipleship, but everybody hears that word in different ways.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to put it like this.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Spiritual leadership that develops spiritual leaders.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And all of those, of course, so what's your definition of these things?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about a group of people that understand my role is not to be
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: the treasurer of the church or the chairperson or whatever committee head
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: or anything like that.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you are a leader in your congregation in any way,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: you must understand that you're a spiritual leader.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not going to be a spiritual leader,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: then you should not be in leadership in your church.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then do that together.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the...
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of the sicknesses that we have.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this isn't like there was an intentional choice.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do this.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is often what we've seen.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then we do.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's that we operate more like a business than we do a group of people centered on Christ.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: That are we getting together for spiritual discernment,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: asking the Lord, God, what is the purpose of this church?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: What is the purpose of this congregation in this community?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: What have you called us to do?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: How have you gifted us?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: How have you empowered us?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we be faithful in doing what you have called us to do?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something that should be burning
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: on our hearts every time we get together for a leadership meeting.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also not something that's just going to shift and change every single meeting.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it's just we're following the zeitgeist, the spirit of the moment.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, we should go do this now.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I saw this thing on the news and some other church did this.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are we called to do in our community?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes a certain level of spiritual leadership of people
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: that have learned what it is to walk with Christ,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: not only individually, but together.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I bring all of that back to the word discipleship in that you need to walk
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: with someone who has been and is walking with Christ.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Not so you can walk with them, but so you can walk with Jesus.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the best ways to do that is to have someone
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: who already knows Jesus introduce you and then help you get to know Jesus.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then you do the same thing to someone else.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: One of the best ways to learn how to fly fish,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know this sounds like a tangent,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: but one of the best ways to learn how to fly fish is to go fly fishing
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: with someone who's been fly fishing.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to learn more from not only them speaking it to you,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: but watching them and You can watch a bunch of videos on YouTube about how
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: to fly fish,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: but until you're standing in that stream striving to do it, you don't get it.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because what you see on YouTube, your stream is going to look different.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: The setting is going to be different.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: The air temperature, the sunlight, everything is going to be different and contextual.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So walk with someone as they walk with Christ, and then you learn to do the same.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then it shouldn't just be one person.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: It should be a group of people centered on Jesus.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that the sickness is,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of like, and I know I'm throwing different analogies in there.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: We have fly fishing.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put this one in there too.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you've grown up in a dim room and never really been in the sunlight,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: you don't know, you probably don't know that you're vitamin D deficient.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And until someone takes you out of that room and you begin to walk out in
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: the sunlight and then you realize, oh, this is something that I need.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's something more here for me.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the sickness in our church?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're vitamin D deficient.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be vitamin discipleship, I guess.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the stupidest way I can put it, Travis.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we are in need of spiritual leaders who will raise up spiritual leaders.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're in need of, and then that doesn't mean getting everything right.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: It means people that are committed to saying, Jesus, what have you called us to do?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: How are we called to do it?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: What are small things that can be done?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Get together regularly for prayer and discernment as a church leadership group.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I say church leadership, well, spiritual leadership group of which the pastor plays a part.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Travis leads his congregation in Marcus.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Travis should not be the person who does all the spiritual discernment.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: He also shouldn't be the one that does the spiritual discernment and then comes
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: and has to fight with his church council to say,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: this is what God has called us to do.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they're saying, no, we're supposed to do that.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: We come together centered around Christ.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And well, when you talked earlier about...
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: That breakout was where you learned kind of
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: the different mindsets we approach things with in a rural area.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, oh, my leadership is split on how they view things.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very practical way of saying, okay,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: now that we're learning how we all view the world,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: How can we ensure that we're intentionally setting aside how we view things
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: to really focus on who Jesus is and ask, Holy Spirit, what are you calling us to do?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then that changes almost every aspect of your church because then
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: the spiritual leadership group,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to want to intentionally walk with people in the congregation.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: To help them become more committed followers of Jesus Christ.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna wanna see their congregation become a group of missionaries
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: that are disciple makers.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're called to go out into our communities and share the gospel in the way that
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord has saved and empowered us to do.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: It leads to a deeper understanding of Ephesians 2.10.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've been created in Christ Jesus to do the good works that have been prepared in advance.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you begin to look at your congregation and not say,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: oh, I think that person We need a nursery worker.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't matter.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Help them go do that thing.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you begin to dig into the church world and learn the language
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: of different movements and groups within it,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: you hear things like the,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: we can do it,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: you can help,
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: which is a church that says we've got all the answers and you come to us and
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: then you do what we do or say to do.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: And instead it switches to you can do it,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: we can help, which is the Lord has a plan and a purpose for you.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And as the church,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's our job to try to help you learn what that is and then send you out to do it.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's all those little kind of almost cliche statements that follow all of it.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it starts with having a spiritual leadership community of which the pastor plays
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: a part and is not the primary leader.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there might be pushback on that.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know that there are plenty of people that teach that the pastor is the CEO of
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: the church, which I think is not biblical.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's Jesus.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one that's in charge.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe we should spend more time centering ourselves around Jesus,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: asking Holy Spirit, what are we supposed to do?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: We should spend more time doing that instead of arguing about the budget.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or our programs.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a shift that needs to happen and take place,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: but it is a primary sickness because it then affects every single organ of
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: the church, every single thing that happens.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: It creates this body of Christ that is anemic and inept at doing what it's supposed to do.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because then we say things like,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: well, none of these young families make it a priority to be in church.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we need people that are going to be on trustees because the lawn has to be mowed
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: and the roof needs to be patched.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: We need we need women in the kitchen serving at funerals and which, by the way, like.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: I make the argument for women being in the pulpit more than the kitchen kind of thing.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Biblically, what are they called to do?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's not just be in the kitchen.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: If they're called to do it, praise the Lord, have them do it.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that shouldn't be the default.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the sickness then translates into all these small things where we're just trying
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: to plug people in to the way we do things.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of asking, Lord, what are we called to do as a church?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, what is every individual called to do in the church?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so we plug people in.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that argument about, well, young people aren't participating.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sports is too important.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: All these other things are, people will go where they find purpose.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: They will go where they find purpose.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: They will go where they find community.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't just happen by saying, well, let's just invite you to church.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are you inviting them to?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you invite them into a life with Christ,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: as well as a life with you,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: where you're willing to go deep,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to have more, quote unquote, success in seeing people come.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel weird even saying that.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: The goal isn't to get people to come to church.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: The hope is that we get them to come to know Christ.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then your church might grow as a result.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: But even if it doesn't, praise the Lord if the kingdom of God is advanced.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because isn't that what we're about?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Being disciples who make disciples.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I'll button all that up,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Travis, by saying the sickness is discipleship and spiritual leadership.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll end with this statement.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you can cut everything else out if you want.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: A disciple who can make disciples, but chooses not to.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Needs to understand that they're not a disciple.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that will take some heart wrestling.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: And no one, I don't think anyone can tell you that.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: But you do need to come to a place of conviction to say,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: if I've made the claim to be a disciple of Jesus Christ,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I've had the opportunity to disciple others,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: but I've chosen my preferences,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've chosen comfort, I have chosen myself over the command of Jesus Christ.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then maybe I'm not really a disciple.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that will – people can push back.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've had pushback on that.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: What about the thief on the cross?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying that wasn't a disciple who went to – because only disciples go to heaven, right?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hang on.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would say he was already bearing witness to Jesus even in his final moments.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there's already – he's bearing witness.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that idea that, well,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: did he walk with someone and make a disciple long-term,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: what we often view as discipleship?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, with the only opportunity he was given,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: he bore witness to Christ, and you're still talking about it today.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I hope that it doesn't take nailing you to a cross before you finally have
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: a witness for Jesus.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would hope that simply just waking up in the morning Saying,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: God, you've given me another day.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who is it today that I'm going to encourage?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Who is it I'm going to connect with?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: How can I pray for them?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: And not just pray for them, but pray with them.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Who, Lord, am I called to go to to share your light, your love, your truth?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then walk with them as they come to know Christ more.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because every day you're given is a blessing.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I also,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: because I know that scripture is true,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: at some point we will stand before the judgment throne and give an account for all
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: of our days.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that I have not used every day that I've been given to the capacity
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: that it could be used.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I do know that there have been days where I have chosen myself over Jesus,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: and I will have to give an account for that.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a sobering thought.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: We are quick to say at someone's funeral that, oh,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: they're being welcomed in the embrace of Jesus,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: hearing well done, good and faithful servant.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're quick to say that because it comforts a grieving family, which is well and good.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're too quick to believe that about ourselves,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: no matter what I do, I will hear well done, good and faithful servant.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we've missed the understanding of what it means to be a believer in Jesus.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not about me.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have died to myself.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, yes, to die is gain, but to live is Christ.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: And can I say that about today?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: That I lived for Christ.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, that could all be heard as judgment on others.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: I am giving you my personal take on what it means to be a believer in Jesus.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Which I know straight originally from the original question of what do you see as
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: the difficulty in the church.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've said this out loud yet,
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: but I think the word sickness on the one hand can sound aggressive,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: but I also think that there's a value to using that term because sickness,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: if someone is sick, they don't need judgment.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: They need diagnosis and they need medicine and they need therapy or whatever
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: the appropriate response is.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: That when someone is sick...
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: What does a good community do when someone in your community falls sick?
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: We care for them.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: We care for them.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: What does an unhealthy community do when someone is sick?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: They isolate and remove them.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to quarantine you without the support that you need to get better.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, that is too often what we do.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're scared when people are sick.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we will cast them aside.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we do that with churches where things aren't going well.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: We say, ah, well, we will just – we'll try to make sure that we get a pastor out there.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: We'll try to – We isolate them even further,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: which on one hand, yeah, you don't want what they have to catch on where you're at.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to be infected by that sickness.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: But, I mean, if we're covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, it's not going to catch hold.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're called to go in there and bring healing.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Jesus did.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: We all love Matthew 9,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: 35 through 38,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever it is,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: where Jesus went and he had the crowds where he was healing
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: and he was casting out demons.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we get that powerful passage of that the harvest is plentiful,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: but the workers are few.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and we love that.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that one of the reasons where we can unintentionally love
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: that passage is that because Jesus was there and there were crowds of people.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we want to bring healing to the crowds of people.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus was already doing that in Matthew 4 before there were crowds,
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: and he was going to the small towns and the villages,
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: and he was bringing healing, and he was sharing the gospel.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: But there were not crowds yet.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus was already doing it.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe this is more of a conviction for the pastors.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to go bring healing and you want to bring a sense of authority to
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: a place where the crowds are already gathered, yes, they need it too.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they're gathering for a reason.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: But are you willing to go where you're unwanted?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Are you willing to go where people don't know who you are or what the gospel really is?
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's not just pastors as well.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll throw that caveat in there.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just pastors, it's leaders.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Are you willing to go where nobody's going to celebrate what you're doing?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you're going to go because that's where Jesus is leading you.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a slightly different word than what we're talking about.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it still flows in with that idea of what is one of the sicknesses.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: We want to do what gets celebrated.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so that church had success doing that, so let's do that here.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: What has Jesus called you to do?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe nobody's going to celebrate that,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: but in 10 years from now,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've been faithful to what Christ has called you to do
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: and have been empowered by the Holy Spirit,
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: then yes,
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: there might be other people that are saying,
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: let's do what they're doing, regardless of there's accolades in this world.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is happening in your congregation that's affecting your community
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: that is changing the lives of the people that live there?
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are you bringing hope?
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are you bringing healing?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Are you inviting them into community with Christ?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where I start preaching about the Church of 2050.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you are faithful now in things,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: faithful now,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: truly following this is what Jesus has called and equipped us to do,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: then your congregation or your community
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: or someone else's congregational community will be changed because
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: of your faithfulness to the Lord.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the Church of 2050 can look wildly different than the Church of today.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because you had someone in your congregation that simply just said,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is what God is calling us to do.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Let's really wrestle with what this means.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that could just be one person.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so if that person is you and you have that word on your heart from the Lord,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: then bring it for discernment.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't say my way or the highway, but bring it for discernment for a group of people.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a wider part of my story.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in that kind of congregation.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where it was spiritual discernment.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was something that they kind of stumbled into, but they really took hold.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it's a part of my spiritual DNA.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to be the church?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: It means a group of people coming together around Jesus saying, what have you called us to do?
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then faithfully going and doing it, even when it doesn't make sense.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then Ephesians 3.20 comes true.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: That it's God's power at work within us that does more than we would ever even think
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: to ask or dream of.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we can only say that God did this because it made no other sense than God doing it.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to that idea, Travis, of what is the church?
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: What is that kind of that illness that might exist that we should come around
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: and bring healing to?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: We need spiritual leaders in our congregations, not just a great pastor.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: we might need more pastors that say,
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: how can I help you do it, than pastors who are great at doing all these things.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because a good leader is going to empower other leaders,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: not be the gal or the guy that does all the things.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that leads to burnout.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing about Zach is that he's a friend of mine and we could talk all day.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's been so much wisdom shared.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: And please do reach out to him.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Pay attention.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: He writes articles for our annual conference newsletter.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: He does multiplication minutes.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: Probably, if this is the first time you're hearing from Zach, it means...
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: You need to pay more attention because there's information out there.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's stuff you can see, stuff you can hear, stuff you can keep up with.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can get his newsletter that he sends out.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to remind you guys all this is a...
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reaching out first to people who I know,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: but then eventually we're going to need to have more folks.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you know somebody who's doing exciting ministry,
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: who has a story that needs to be heard,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: you can send it to me at an email at pastortravisatmarcusgrace.com.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love to keep this going and get as many stories from around
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: the annual conference shared as possible.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again, Zach, for being here.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep springing this on people, but would you be willing to close this out in prayer?
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love it.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let's pray.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gracious Heavenly Father,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: I lift up to you the Upper Midwest Conference of the Global Methodist Church.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: I lift up to you the Global Methodist Church,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: but Father, truly, I lift up to you just people who call themselves Christians.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: And Lord, Father, you know my heart that I get so many things wrong every single day.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: And Holy Spirit, I'm so thankful that you lead and you empower.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Lord, when I pray these things, you know what I'm truly saying.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: But Father, deep in my bones, there is this fire to see your bride, the church, come alive.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's already happening, Lord.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: But Father, you have put us here for a reason.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not to get everything right.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply just to be faithful to you.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: Father,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: help the leadership groups and the congregations that exist within our conference,
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: within our denomination, and really within your body.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: Help them, Lord,
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: to see success,
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: not as the largest crowds or the best programs, but simply as faithfulness to you.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that faithfulness isn't a fully passive thing,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: that it's going and it's moving and it's walking with you and it is bringing hope
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: and healing to the dead, the dying and the forgotten.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: That to be disciples, Lord, that you have sent us out to go and make disciples.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't just mean making a good church member.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: It means seeing someone truly walk with you,
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: be empowered by the Holy Spirit and doing what they have been called and saved
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: to do.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: And Father,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just ask and pray that if there's just even one person that hears this and
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: that they want to try something or start something or do something,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: that Father,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: that you would just draw them closer to your heart,
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: that they would truly be with you,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, before they ever go and try to do something.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: And Lord,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: I You know that I pray this, Father,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: before any sermon that I preach,
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: but if there was something that was said for me today that was not from you,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: that God,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: that it would just fall on deaf ears,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: that no one would even know what it meant or that I said it.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just pray that your truth and your love would remain.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, help us to be your humble servants.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: Keep that fire shut up in our bones.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Keep your word flowing from our lips.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Father, may we come to know you more every day.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: I thank you for these churches.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: I thank you for these leaders.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Father, I thank you for what you are doing.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: Holy Spirit, for how you are leading it and empowering it in this world.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus, we just praise you and thank you for who you are.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: Help us to trust the same spirit that rose you from the grave can now live in us.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus,
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: that as the Father sent you,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: you have now sent us to carry you with us,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: your hope, your love, your message to the world, that you have come for us.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: We thank you for that, Jesus.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's in your holy name that we pray.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks again for watching.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you've come this far, this has been what you have seen and heard.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: And our guest this week has been the Reverend Zach Kingrey.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully you can come back and we'll have more of these together.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.