Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 66: What in the Hallelujah?

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Ep. 66: What in the Hallelujah? · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
• 0:26
  And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: It's intro time. You hit the same notes too. I know. It's because it's in my head, it's to the tune of, it's Christmas time. What's that from?
• 0:47
  It's, I think, Beach Boys Christmas song. I don't know. I'm not a 100% sure.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: A shocking amount of our episodes start with you singing something and me saying, what's that from?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: The other day at work, the internet and everything was totally out. So we had no music. And my mind was just running with songs. Everything that everybody said was a song. I threatened to sing to everybody I saw.
• 1:20
  And some people I did.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah. Anyway, off of that topic. So today, we have a super special episode for you guys. In just a couple of minutes, we are gonna interview Heather Fraser, who is an author and a coach and just an all around pretty amazing person.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Through the magic of cinema, we've already had our interview with her. So we know what to expect. You don't. We know that she's one of our new bestest best friends. She's fantastic.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: She is. I like, just talking to her and hearing the things she has to say, and you guys obviously will hear all of this in a couple of minutes, but it sometimes when you talk to people on the same wavelength, it makes you feel a little less crazy.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, a 100%. Because I'm always on a weird wavelength with almost everybody I interact with. So to find someone that's vaguely matching the beat of my drum, It was really refreshing and really encouraging. She'll tell you
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: guys a little bit about herself, but she has published one book already. It's called How I Fixed My Teen. And she'll talk a little bit about that. And then she's got another book coming out in October. Correct?
• 2:44
  Correct. And that one's called Mom Got Jesus Wrong, Hallelujah. Hallelujah. And so she's gonna talk a good bit about that book, but also just kind of about her own experiences with the church, with sexism in the church, with just I mean, the same stuff that all of us women deal with all the time.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: All the time. It's a great world. We're just living in it. Something I really like that she says, another spoiler you're gonna hear. But her first book was a non fiction book.
• 3:17
  And it's a lot of her own personal journal entries. And her second book that she's coming out with in October is a fiction book. And as I was kind of marinating on it and what she says, I love that she chose fiction Mhmm. For this book. Because so often non fiction can seem educational Mhmm.
• 3:34
  And intimidating sometimes. Yeah. To pick up a non fiction book and be like, okay, I want to learn something.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: It's so much less intimidating to pick up a fiction, like a story, but secretly learn something.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: I whenever I read a research book so I'm on book, like, 66 or something for this year. And then And
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I have my wheel stuck in a ditch.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: But almost all of mine are fiction. Like, there have been a few, like, obviously, that I've read for the podcast and things like that. But nonfiction, it it intimidates me a lot of times.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I have to be really in the mood for a nonfiction book. And almost every time after I finish one, I'm like, yes. That was so good.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Let me
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: tell everybody I know about it. And then I get intimidated by them again.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I have to sit there with, like, a highlighter and take notes and whatever. And and sometimes that's great, but it takes more brainpower than I usually have at the end
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: of the day. Yeah.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: So for her to tell this story through the vehicle of fiction, I think is just so smart. Mhmm. I think it's gonna resonate with a ton of people. I think it's gonna make people feel comfortable enough to pick it up. Mhmm.
• 4:50
  And I don't know. Just just open up a space that a lot of people wouldn't interact with.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And I think everything that she says, she says through a lot of kindness, which I really appreciate. It's very approachable. For people who are just dipping their toe into this world of feminism or equality, or you don't know exactly what it's about, but you feel like you agree with a lot of the things that these people, we, me and Alyssa and Heather, are saying, I think she's a great person to look to.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: So we'll launch right into that. And you guys will get to hear her story and more about her. I would highly encourage you to preorder her book that's coming out in October and pick up her last book as well. And she'll let you guys know a little bit more about where to find
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: that in a couple minutes. Hooray and huzzah. Hallelujah. And is it time for a transition noise? It's time, Brie.
• 5:55
  Should I keep going? Nah. Okay. Transition.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Hi. Hi. Welcome, guys.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Are you?
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Nice to meet you. I'm good, and it's nice to meet you both.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So good to meet you. I'm Alyssa.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I'm Brie, like the cheese.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I love Brie.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I do too.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: Tell us
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: a little bit about your background as a writer. What about your story led you to write your last book and then also your newest book, Mom Got Jesus Wrong, Hallelujah.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I never wanted to be an author, oddly enough. But as I was raising my kids, I kept having these ideas and I knew that it was God kind of tapping me on the shoulder of like, Hey, I have this idea for you to do. And I was like, no, no, no, really. I'm fine. Like we're okay.
• 6:55
  But it, he was very patient with me and finally I was like, okay, fine. Like this is a good spot in life. And I really, as I had struggled with misogyny within the religious context Mhmm. And a lot of other things and then seeing my oldest is a daughter, and she left religion in large part to misogyny and patriarchy within religion. And so I really had to do some deep digging as far as my own spirituality was concerned and how misogyny and patriarchy do play in that and, and how her experience was valid and what I wanted my experience to be.
• 7:45
  And it really caused me to do some deep reflection and soul searching. And as I would come to these conclusions or have these insights, I would write them down. And so our heroine in the book that's coming out this October, mom bought Jesus wrong, hallelujah, is many of my epiphanies, but not in okay. If I'm honest, nonfiction is sometimes really boring. And so Yeah.
• 8:19
  I spun all of my insights into one character and how she figured out that Jesus isn't a misogynist or a racist. Mhmm. In case we're wondering, like, he's none of these things. And how we often use religion to push forward harmful agendas as a culture. Mhmm.
• 8:42
  I really wanted my book to be beautiful, and I have a really favorite religious artist. His name is Jay Kirk Richards, and he lives about a half an hour away from me. And he was lovely enough to chat with me. And he liked my project and he's like, yeah, let's do it. But I will not be con I will not be constrained to a timeline because he is a true artist.
• 9:08
  Mhmm. And so I was like, okay, cool. And my publisher, once I sat down to write mom got Jesus wrong, hallelujah, I wrote it in about two months. Wow. The first draft.
• 9:21
  It just really flowed because I had been chewing on things for so long that once I sort of set up the structure of I wanted to read as fiction, it's a girl's journal. And this is kind of the plot line of her life within this year of her journal. And so it really came quickly. My And publisher was like, well, you wrote that so quick. Write another one while you're waiting for the artist.
• 9:45
  So I was like, okay, I guess. So my first book to publish it published in 2024 was how I fixed my teen. Mhmm. Which spoiler alert, I didn't fix my teen. I fixed myself, which fixed my relationship with my teen.
• 10:04
  Mhmm. And that is well, it's not fiction. It is my story.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: And both my books are just over a 100 pages because who needs a really long book? I hear you. I wanted people to get what they needed and get on with their life. So I kept them both pretty short and concise. And my first book has been so wonderful.
• 10:31
  How I fix my teen. I included, I really like vulnerability and intimacy in an emotional way. And so I put my own journal entries in my first book.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Wow. Oh, cool.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: As far as one of them was on mother's day and just like, I am just an object to meet everyone's needs today has been the worst. You know, just see me as a means to their purpose. They do not see me as a person. Right. Mhmm.
• 11:05
  And just all the different pains and struggles of being a mom. Mhmm.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Was there like a sense of freedom putting those journals out there into the book, or was that super scary?
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes to both. So scary. But I think that freedom lives on the other side of doing scary but powerful things.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: And so to be seen was really scary. I have a chapter in that book. It's called garbage disposal moms, and it's the second to last chapter. And I really put it all out there in that line in in that chapter. And I have had women that I didn't know that well, but, you know, we know other people show up on my porch with bread and just be like, can we hang out?
• 11:58
  I read your book or I listened to it and I just bawled and I had no idea. And I feel the same way. Like it, it has been so connecting and so nurturing, and I'm really hoping that mom got Jesus wrong. Hallelujah is even more so Yeah. In that regard.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: There's something so powerful about feeling like you're not the only one going through these certain situations.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's my turn. Okay.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: So we kind of talked a little bit about what inspired you to write the story and why you chose fiction because nonfiction sometimes is a little bit boring. But can you pinpoint why you chose the word hallelujah? Because I love that word.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: I love it too. It is such a celebratory exclamation.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: And
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: originally I was troubleshooting titles with my kids. And one of the titles that I had kind of come up with was mom was wrong about Jesus. Thank God. Mhmm. Which is similar, but I wanted to make it more concise.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: And I think that hallelujah is so much more celebratory, and you're not going to mix it in with maybe sarcasm.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: Which thank God is often sarcastic, and it's definitely not a sarcastic title. It is very Celebratory. Yes. Very direct in what it what it means. And actually, fun little backstory.
• 13:37
  Mom got Jesus wrong. Hallelujah was not the title for the first couple of years Oh, wow. Of me writing it.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: What did you have?
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: Okay. This is gonna be a fun little quiz. The title was JC the OG. Do you get it?
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell me who's in the house.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: The original gangster. Yeah. He is. Yes.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: That takes me back to, like, church camp.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Seriously. But I don't think that it conveyed the message as concisely as a title ought to. So I ended up changing it. But I really I picked that title in the beginning because like my daughter, they a lot of millennials and younger and even, you know, I'm Gen X and people are disenchanted with God Mhmm. Because of how he is pitched.
• 14:42
  Yeah. And how Christ is pitched. It's really it's like, oh, a stuffy old bigoted white guy. Mhmm. Mhmm.
• 14:49
  No. Thank you. That's a pass. Next. And my daughter and her peers and so many in society are looking for a leader.
• 15:00
  Yeah. To end racism, to end sexism, to bring equality and peace and love to the world. Mhmm. And there are a lot of leaders that are saying they'll get us there, but they're doing it through hatred. Right.
• 15:17
  They're doing it through anger and through really negative things. And it all eventually fails.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: And so part of my goal in this book is to show people who are looking for a leader that can bring about lasting change, that Christ is that person.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: But he's not the guy that maybe your mom taught you. Right. Or your Sunday school teacher taught you after he asked you out when you were 18. Right? Like Yeah.
• 15:52
  Not that guy. This is this is a different guy that actually doesn't put up with that business.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Mhmm. We actually talk about that a lot. Like, if Jesus were walking down the street today, a lot of the hyper religious people right now probably wouldn't like him very much.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Which is exactly what happened when he walked the street.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: Yep. Oh, the irony.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And we're still there.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: I know. Bless our hearts. Right? Like, did we learn nothing? I was just shaking his head.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: I was like,
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: come on kids.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the book focuses on rethinking your faith, kind of that deconstruction. What does that feel like for someone in real life? What are the emotions behind for your character as she deconstructs?
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: So I can speak to very few experiences because I it's such a personal individual thing that I don't think there's one way it has to look for anyone. But what I've noticed with myself and with clients and friends and family is it's really disorienting at first. It's kind of like you just got put on glasses for the first time and you can see things and it's sort of horrifying.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: And things that you thought were one way aren't, and you don't know what's safe and who to trust. And that can feel so scary and disorienting. And she definitely is going through that. And she doesn't trust anyone because she, the people that she was supposed to trust harmed her. Right.
• 17:37
  And so when we can deal with the disorientation and regulate ourselves within that and find safety within ourselves, then we can connect with the divine in a way that the divine wants to connect with us. Mhmm. And I think in religions, they prescribe that as very specific. Like you need to pray, you need to read the Bible, you need to do these things. And if you're not feeling, you know, God's love or God's word in this, then do it harder.
• 18:14
  Maybe, maybe not.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Maybe go outside.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Touch grass.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. Maybe hug a friend. Maybe, you know, be with a herd of horses. Like there are so many different ways that we can find God.
• 18:33
  And I think that being open and finding safety in exploring that is how we can ground ourself and reconnect with God in a real way. And that's the exact journey that she has in this book.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I love that. That, like, makes me so happy inside.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And so the book is a metaphor. So her mom is organized religion. Okay. And her brother embodies the harms of patriarchy.
• 19:04
  And the book starts with her mom having just died and she couldn't be happier because finally it's done. Okay. Like she doesn't have to deal with it anymore. Mhmm. But much like leaving a religion, she is still haunted because she hasn't cleaned up her end Yeah.
• 19:25
  Of dealing with that. Even though she didn't do anything to deserve it, we still have to deal with our crap even if we didn't create it.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: And and so she's dealing with her stuff and deconstructing, you know, what the the harmful religious voice was saying versus what her actual experience with God tells her, and they don't con they're they're conflicting. They do not coincide. And she does find God in nature, which is a huge connector for me. That's why I put it in there. Some people find it in music or, you know, really good cinema about Christ.
• 20:03
  Like, there's so many different ways. Yeah. And at the end of the book, I very intentionally ended very open in the sense that she never is like, oh, I guess my mom was a good mom, and I'm gonna, you know, whitewash her memory in my head. And that does never happen. Yeah.
• 20:23
  Because I really want readers to glean the confidence and wisdom throughout the chapters to then come to their own conclusion.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Of
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: how they want that relationship to be. Yeah, because it is so personal.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We don't all get the resolution that we want.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. No.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And you can't control other people. Right? Sometimes you just have to let them be who they are and heal you.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: That's that is the fastest way to peace and freedom.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: So I feel like this book probably talks about a lot of like generational trauma, how faith and religion is passed down through generations. Can you speak more on that? And then also talk about, Is it okay somewhere along those lines to break and deconstruct your faith?
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: I think it's not only okay, I think it is necessary. It is a necessity if we want our children to embrace the faith that we that we love.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: So I was just chatting with a friend this morning about her in laws.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Always fun.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: Who are chewing her out for leaving the faith. Because, know, that's so scary and so wrong and she needs God in her life. Well, she has a great relationship with God, just not within the four walls that they think it should be.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: And we were talking about their relationship because they're like, maybe in their late sixties or seventies and how common and my parents are 82. Mhmm. And how common it is for women in that era to fold into their husband and to not have their own mind and to not see their importance of being an autonomous leaf free and thinking person and that. My mom and her mother-in-law, and so many women that we all know yield because that is what is safe and that's what's expected.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: There's no way I would be happy in that relationship. I don't think you guys would be either.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Not so much.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: No, not so much. And so if we want our sons to have a healthy relationship, they need to evolve.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: respect that women are just as intelligent, just as capable and just as worthy of receiving revelation of having their own minds of, and give our women, our daughters that permission. That they do not have to yield to anyone. Right. I, one of the stories that I include in this book, was, in my congregation, I was working with the kids ages three to 12. And we do a program every year.
• 23:37
  It's called the primary program where the kids get up for the whole congregation and sing and talk, and it is just so precious. Mhmm. They take the whole hour, and it's adorable. And our congregational leaders, men came in and they had already approved the date and they're just like, well, we're gonna change it because these other guys wanted it different.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: And it was so frustrating because essentially our hands were tied. Mhmm. And I really had to chew on this for a few days. And he used, and I put this in the book, her brother says this to Avis, the main character. But he said, this is essentially like Abraham and Isaac, and you need to sacrifice at the altar.
• 24:23
  Oh, boy. And I just was like, right? I was so taken aback. Uh-huh. Unfortunately, my co volunteer had the wherewithal to respond because I was speechless.
• 24:42
  Yeah. And she said, this is nothing like that. You are not God. And this is this is an overreach of power. This is not goodness or godliness.
• 24:52
  And I put that in my book because the epiphany that I had from this story was because I was pissed. I went home from church. I was so mad and I just, yeah. So I really was like, god help me out with this one because we are not happy. And genuinely, when I am humble enough to be like, dude, tell me how I can wrap my head around this.
• 25:21
  He basically was like, Heather, you're putting this guy between you and I. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, he's interjecting himself, and you're letting him.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Like, we we don't need a middleman. You and I can talk. We do not need him as a middleman. Love hallelujah. Hallelujah.
• 25:41
  Literally. Hallelujah. In, like, the most non sarcastic way.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. Genuinely hallelujah. Yeah. And an instant peace. Just like, yeah, you are right.
• 25:55
  He gets to deal with his relationship with you
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: And how he's using his power for harm. That's none of my business.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: That's not that's that's his concern.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Hallelujah. That is is for him to deal with, and I can have a great relationship with God, and he has nothing to do with it. And I don't want to give him power to get between me and God.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: If women could have said that sixty years ago. Yeah. So obviously we're talking about harmful theology here. That's a huge theme in your book. What are some of the damaging messages that you're seeing parents hand down, maybe that your daughter dealt with when she left the church that we should maybe let go of?
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I I was fortunate enough to be raised in a household where clothing was not really talked about, for example. But my daughter picked up enough at church, like, that she was shamed for wearing a spaghetti strap dress to church or whatever. And so modesty is a huge one. We've got to flip the script on that.
• 27:07
  And then purity culture, which there's some overlap in that
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: But also around sexuality and expressing that, it's like people want this pure innocent woman, but then also in the bedroom, she needs to be a saucy fixer. Exactly. Like, you can't have it both ways.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Nope.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: And that creates so much dysfunction for our young ladies
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Around sexuality. It's setting them up for a failed sexual relationship in their adult life because you you're only as good as your virtue, and that's, you know, you're prized for that, but then also you need to please over here. Modesty around sexuality, around just defaulting to an outer authority. So many women that I coach need an authority to approve of how they're feeling of what they're gonna do of all these different things, even like in logistical ways. It's like, no.
• 28:12
  Right. You're intelligent.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: One of my clients, I love her. Can I swear? Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm like, girl, you're a grown ass woman.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: You can decide. And she's like, I am. And so all like, for weeks, she's like, I'm a grown ass woman.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: And I want that lamp. I'm like, yes. That is the lamp. Like, get that lamp. And just just defaulting outside of themselves is so ingrained in women, and it's so ingrained in men to be that default.
• 28:45
  Mhmm. Mhmm. And so also because I think patriarchy harms men just as much as it does women.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: And so that's a lot of pressure for our boys to always have the right answer and to always do the right thing and to always be the authority. That's not fun.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: No. No. To realistic.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Yes. And so to be a more collaborative team is blessing everyone.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Actually, we talk about our best friend Beth on the podcast all the time. Her name is Beth Allison Barr.
• 29:19
  I don't know if you've heard of her, but she's another author and she talks about that all the time about how patriarchy harms everyone. In relationships,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: in the workplace, in society at large, patriarchy sets them up for so many issues.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. What advice would you give to parents right now who are trying to deconstruct and rethink their faith and dealing with their kids in the middle of it all?
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: So much grace and love.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: So much grace and love. Your path and journey and your child's, they're not gonna look the same as each other or your neighbors.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: And just to really again, we are hardwired socially to look around, look in and look up. And those are the only two perspectives that you should give any attention to. Our brain's gonna wanna look around. Well, their kid's doing this, or I should be doing this. Redirect.
• 30:24
  Yeah. Like, this is what I am doing. This is what I have capacity for right now in this moment. This is how I can love my kid. This is how I can connect with God and and it is enough.
• 30:36
  Mhmm. You're doing is so enough.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like especially in The US, our culture is always like progress and what are you achieving right now. But I love that giving yourself so much grace and love and patience and just that you are enough. Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Yep. Even if nothing ever shifts, it's enough.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: If you could kind of give that same advice, but looking at the church, what could the church do differently? As you know, kids are walking from the faith because of sexism, racism, homophobia, things like that? How would you give advice to the church, not necessarily to force people back, but to make them feel safe there?
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I love this question because, and I'm not gonna spoil it, but this is the reason the mom dies. Wow. Look. It is her cousin's
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: death. Okay.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: And I'm not gonna disclose what that is. Okay. But because it is so important because I love my faith. Mhmm. But it is run by people who don't always do a stellar job.
• 31:51
  And that includes me. I don't always do a great job either because we're all messy and flawed. K? Some on more occasion than others, but I digress. So we need to own our crap.
• 32:06
  Yeah. We just need to own our crap and not put on a fake face. Mhmm. Mhmm. I was like, yeah, that happened.
• 32:15
  You know, this person got arrested because of what was on his computer.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Yep. Yep.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: Not a good look. And yeah, in the eighteen hundreds, we hit all of that. Mhmm. Not a good look. And, we are misogynistic and we're trying to change that.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Mhmm.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: The most trustworthy thing that a person or an entity can do is acknowledge their untrustworthiness. Yeah. Which is like, yeah, we get it wrong, like, half the time, and we're trying. Come be part of us and help us.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. That's the most appealing thing.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Brie and I both have struggled a lot with finding a church. And one of the things we've said is just accountability would make us feel safe. Mhmm. I think that's huge for women to see from the stage accountability.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah and and things trying to change I think and maybe you'll agree or disagree I think most organized religion Christian and non is patriarchal in practice and and set up their patriarchal systems
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Which is fine. Like, it has to either be patriarchal or matriarchal or some combination, but it's when that power is used for one's own agenda
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Or one's own benefit. Mhmm. And then and then we have the problem. Right? Because, yeah, somebody has to be in charge of this meeting or somebody has to put this together.
• 33:50
  And that's okay if they're doing it in a truly Christ like way.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm. And just finding the right person for that, whether man or woman, just who's the most qualified for it right now.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And being transparent, like you said, in we get a lot of things wrong.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Come bring your strength and your perspective. And let's learn about Christ together.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If we could all just, yeah, bring that perspective together. I think that would change the whole it would change the world.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: It would. It would. But people would have to drop power and the desire to control and the desire for that to feed their own ego.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: And that's a really hard thing for most people to
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: give up. It seems that way. Yeah.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: History would say. Yeah. Our current our currents would say. Yep. That it's the struggle bus right there.
• 34:49
  Mhmm. Which is exactly what Christ invited us to do. Yeah. To drop our burdens, to drop our ego, to come follow him. And most people, when they saw him face to face, couldn't do it for at least not sustainably.
• 35:05
  Right.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: That's the whole bible.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yep.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: How do you think parents specifically can model a different kind of faith? One that's rooted in Christ, but also is not carrying that same trauma?
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: By healing their traumas. Otherwise, it will always surface.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. Even the most well intended parents. I know so many moms that are so amazing, but because of the high control, high damage household they grew up in, it presents. Even if they're really loving to their kids, they hate themselves.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: And so by healing your own and unraveling that is the best way to allow our children to not have it.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: that's a hard. That's a hard one, though. Is. Lots of therapy.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And we just want that easy answer of, you know, just start praying with them every day or, like, some easy, like, check the box. I do this. I do this. I do this.
• 36:17
  They're not gonna experience it. But yeah. And sometimes people can flip this in a moment. Like, it clicks, and they're like, oh, yeah. I'm never looking back.
• 36:28
  I see things completely different. And sometimes it's more like the rising of the sun. It's a little more subtle, but all of a sudden you're like, oh, it is more light. And I didn't even, it was so dark and now it's getting lighter.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Right. I think we can all get there eventually. For sure.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why we're
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: here.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: All
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: right. So the last thing we wanted to ask you,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: and I'll add one little question to this too. But what's something you hope readers take away from your story? And also, where can they connect with you? Where can they grab your book? How do they continue on learning more about you?
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: The one thing I want everyone to get from it is that Jesus loves them as is. Yeah. Period. And of course he wants them to have their best life, but that doesn't require them to abandon themselves. It doesn't require them to hate themselves or punish themselves.
• 37:30
  That it is through unconditionally loving ourselves like he does that we can truly find him. And you can find me at heatherfraser.com, and Fraser is with a z I f r a z I e r. So no s. It's not like the show. I think it's happening.
• 37:49
  I know. It's such a great show. But, yeah, heatherfrazier.com. Both my books are on there. They also and I have amazing bonuses right now.
• 38:01
  Those are When you preorder my book.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So the book publishes in October at the end of the month. I have a playlist that's super good. I have a book group guide.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Which is fantastic. I have a Facebook group where we can talk about Sunday school and all the painful things, you know, that maybe you don't wanna talk to your parents about because they'll just argue with you. Mhmm. Like, well, it's a safe place to talk about it. So many good bonuses.
• 38:30
  So grab your copy at, like, barnesandnoble.com, walmart.com, Amazon. Mhmm. And then you just go to my website. You pop in your purchase receipt number thing, and you get all the bonuses.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Yeah.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Alright. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Heather. This has been so good.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: I absolutely love speaking with people like you because it again, it often feels like we're alone because we're not hearing all of this goodness out in the world, but it's really refreshing to hear from you.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: We need each other in this world. We need the affirming voices of you're not crazy. Jesus really is that compassionate
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: that good and we can get there together.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. We appreciate you being on.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Enjoy Utah. Yeah.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: It's beautiful. I'm in Zion. It's beautiful.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I bet. Bet Michigan's pretty flat.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Not exciting here.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: No. But it is a lot more green than here.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. That's true.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: It is green.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: That's why
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I have allergies.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, we have those here too. Slightly different plants, but yeah.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Alright. Well, hopefully, we'll be able to catch up again soon.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I would be honored anytime you need a guest.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: For
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: sure. Well, have got your email.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: So Yeah. Thank you both so much. It was an honor to meet you and to chat with you. You both are amazing.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Alright. Well, we'll talk to you Take care.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Bye Heather. Transition. I
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: think that's a different transition song than you used to do.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Papa doobie doobie doobie.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: There you go. That's the normal one. Now we've got multiple transitions. Yes. So did you guys love her?
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I loved her. Honestly, just thinking about the interview, I could cry.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Are are you gonna? Mhmm. Do you want me to leave?
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Get me a Kleenex. Give me some space.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: I just think she was so incredibly open and honest about things that are hard in her life too.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: For someone to put their own journal entries into a book, I think, says so much about their integrity, for one, but also how comfortable you can be around them.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Yes. How comfortable you can be around them, how comfortable she is around herself. I loved how she was saying, what's a good example to give your kids? And not just your kids, you're a single person, just to be a good example to everybody is to heal yourself. Spend time healing yourself, doing those journal entries, going to therapy, touching grass.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Making sure that you're okay as a person so that you can pour into other people.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think especially, like, we put so much pressure on ourselves. Well, I need to do this, this, this, and this to be a good example to the people around me. Need to have my faith in this place. I need to work this hard.
• 41:46
  I need to create this relationship, whatever. But to just step back and look at it, like, if I am doing well Mhmm. If I am healthy and whole, then the world around me will see that. Mhmm. And that's what will impact them.
• 42:03
  That's what will impact your kids and your friends and your church community and whoever else you interact with.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I have a good analogy.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Alright. I'm ready. Cake. That's the whole analogy? Just cake.
• 42:14
  Got it.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Cake. Yeah. The outside can be really pretty. You can be doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing as a person of faith. So you can be going to church.
• 42:31
  You can be doing the Bible studies, but not really feel it in your heart. Mhmm. And so sometimes, when you take a bite of that cake that's really pretty on the outside, the inside tastes like dirt. Like dirt? Mhmm.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Wow. Is it like that pie from
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, the help? The help. Yes. Sometimes it's poop pie. Sometimes it's poop That's an even better analogy.
• 42:54
  Or like what mom says, a little bit of poop in your brownies.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: That was do you guys remember that? Okay. All of you little evangelical children, come along this journey with me. Okay? When you were kids, this was always the excuse we got.
• 43:11
  If I would, like, listen to a song that had a cuss word in it or something.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Or you wanna go to a movie that there's just like one bad part
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: in
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: your There's just one small bad part.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: The analogy that I would always get, and it would come from mom, it would come from like my aunts, everybody. And it would be like, well, imagine if you made a brownie and you used all the best ingredients, like the highest end everything, but then you put just a little bit of poop in it. Would you still eat it? Like, to me, like, okay. This one little bad part ruins everything.
• 43:41
  Did everyone else hear that as a child?
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: I heard that all the time as a I heard it all the time. Those poop brownies, man. Freaking even what I was talking about.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: You were talking about a beautiful cake, and then it turned into a beautiful pie, and then it turned into poop brownies.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. So we just need to heal the pie and the brownies and the cake and make them good from the inside out. They can look so pretty, but be disgusting inside. Mhmm.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: So be delicious inside is what we're saying.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Be a cake. A good cake. A good cake. One like from Whole Foods. Anyway.
• 44:20
  So I hope you
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: guys really enjoyed talking to her. We absolutely loved having her on. Hopefully we'll have an opportunity in future to have her on again Mhmm. Just to talk about more of her experiences. She's a coach, so she deals with women dealing with these things all the time.
• 44:36
  Mhmm. And I would love to hear more from her in the future. So definitely head over to Amazon, to Walmart, to Barnes and Noble. Barnes and Noble, and pick up her book. And then like she said, just take your receipt number and head over to her website, which is heather fraser, and that's frazier.com.
• 44:54
  And you can put in your receipt number and get a ton of, like Bonus content, bonus material. Mhmm.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Really good if you're looking for something for, like, a small group or a study Mhmm. To do with your friends or people who you don't consider friends. You know? Good for any amount of people. The the people you hate?
• 45:13
  Good for you're surrounded by people you hate.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: So give them this book. Next week, we are gonna be talking a little bit about kind of some of the differences that we have noticed as we grew up Protestant and now have kind of made friends with some people of other faiths and seen the way that they interact with their faith and the way that I think Protestants oftentimes use some of our theology as an excuse not to be great people.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Is that a good way to summarize that?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To just, like, be a little bit less generous, less kind, because we're told so often that our faith is not works based.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Which I believe. Mhmm. There's nothing that I can do that's gonna make me the best person that's gonna get me into heaven. The only thing that's getting me into heaven is Jesus. Mhmm.
• 46:08
  And the fact that he died on the cross for me. However, while I'm here on this earth, I should be as generous and kind and giving as Jesus was. Mhmm. And I think very often we kind of use that our faith isn't works based Mhmm. As an excuse to not do the works.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna dive into that a little bit and just kind of explore, I think, that and some topics around it too. Mhmm.
• 46:37
  And, that's about that's all.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: There's probably gonna be a little bit of nonsense, a little bit of foolishness.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: No. We never do that.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: I might give another cake analogy.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Oh, you know what I wanted to start doing again? Do you remember when we first started, we were like, hey. Share this podcast with someone in.
• 46:58
  Remember that?
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: I love the country.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I wanna do that again because our podcast reaches people in 29 countries, which blows my mind, first of all. We could hold hands around the world. But I am like I I don't know why, but I just so want us to hit that, like, 30 country mark. Yes. So if you guys could share this we don't have a lot of listeners in South America.
• 47:23
  So share this with people that you know in South America, and let them know that I will be forever grateful if they listen from a country that we don't have on our map so far. And listen.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I had nothing else.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: And on that note, you'll hear us again next week. You're welcome. You're so welcome at all times.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: At all times, you are welcome.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.