Latest / Future Christian / New models of clergy credentialing: Jonathan Foster talks about the Open Table Network

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New models of clergy credentialing: Jonathan Foster talks about the Open Table Network · Future Christian

0:06
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source
0:09
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church
0:11
into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Lauren Richman, junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're welcoming
0:36
Jonathan Foster. Jonathan is the partner of
0:39
one, father of three, author,
0:41
podcaster, lowercase Tea, theologian with some
0:44
degrees, founder of lovehaty.org and
0:47
a lover of mountains o and Colorado School of
0:50
Mines, and in general, a, uh, solvum
0:53
probler extraordinaire. Find out
0:55
more@jonathanfosteronline.com.
0:58
Let's welcome Jonathan to the show.
1:08
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is
1:11
Lauren Richmond, junior, and today I'm pleased to be
1:13
welcoming Jonathan Foster to the show. Hey, and
1:16
welcome.
1:17
>> Jonathan Foster: Hey, welcome to you. Thanks so much for.
1:20
Thanks so much for having me back on. Appreciate it.
1:23
And, uh, it's great to see you, man.
1:25
>> Loren: We're hoping to do this in person. Last
1:27
week at the conferences we were a part of,
1:30
but Jonathan is just such an
1:33
important figure that I just could not pull him off the
1:36
many panels, uh, and speaking
1:39
elements he had. And I had other things, unfortunately.
1:42
So we're doing this virtually, uh,
1:44
here. So appreciate your time and making
1:47
some time to have this conversation.
1:49
>> Jonathan Foster: Absolutely. Sorry it didn't work out in person. That's goofy.
1:52
When we were together, couldn't make it happen, but, oh, well,
1:55
we got the technology, and, um, I'm thankful to have
1:58
a conversation either way.
2:00
>> Loren: Right. So you've been on the pod before, but give a sense,
2:03
uh, give a summary, if just kind of. If you can, of your background,
2:06
faith journey, that kind of thing.
2:08
>> Jonathan Foster: Sure. Well, uh, I've been a church planner most of
2:11
my life. Um, that served me really well. I
2:14
enjoyed doing that. Hopefully, I served it well.
2:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
2:18
>> Jonathan Foster: And then, um, my theology kind of shifted and
2:21
changed and morphed, but went, uh, through a
2:24
lot of loss, including the loss of our
2:26
daughter about nine years ago
2:29
and four months ago. And, um,
2:32
that really just kind of fast tracked me. I,
2:35
you know, there's a lot of questions I had to respond to.
2:38
And so as I was trying to have intellectual honesty with all of
2:41
that stuff, uh, just kind of picked up speed
2:44
and didn't work really well with my denomination, my former
2:47
denomination, they asked me to leave. And, um,
2:50
yeah, so that's been a really interesting journey, and it's really absurd, but I'm
2:53
also quite grateful for it. I'm thankful. Thankful for where I
2:56
came from. I'm not bitter towards them. I think
2:59
it was silly, but, um. But I'm also
3:02
thankful. And then we got a partner of 34
3:05
years, and we have a couple boys
3:08
who are now in their twenties and have kind of grown up
3:11
in all of this shifting, changing stuff. So that's been fun and
3:13
meaningful to process it with them. Um, and I'm an
3:16
author and a podcaster, and I run a nonprofit down in
3:19
Haiti. And, um, I'm involved in way too many
3:22
things.
3:23
>> Loren: Yeah. The, uh, big fancy title for Jonathan
3:26
Foster's podcast. Here, give it to us.
3:29
>> Paul: What?
3:30
>> Jonathan Foster: What is it?
3:31
>> Loren: Jonathan Foster.
3:32
>> Jonathan Foster: Right. Jonathan underscore Foster, the
3:34
podcast.
3:35
>> Loren: That's a big, fancy name, right?
3:36
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, that, that's my big, fancy name. Jonathan
3:39
Foster. Because, um, all the cool names, like
3:42
future Christian were taken and what are you gonna do, man?
3:45
So I just. I just went with it.
3:47
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's a
3:50
spiritual practice that's been meaningful for you of late?
3:54
>> Jonathan Foster: Um, probably the most important spiritual
3:56
practice for me over the last. Well, really my whole life,
3:59
but certainly the last nine or ten years, has been getting out
4:03
hiking when I'm out in your part of the country.
4:06
Um, I mean, I can call it hike when I'm in Kansas City,
4:09
but it's kind of embarrassing. It's really more of
4:12
a walk or a run.
4:13
>> Loren: A walk on gravel.
4:15
>> Jonathan Foster: That's right. We, uh, have some nice parks here, but not a lot
4:18
of incline or decline. So, um, getting out
4:21
and doing that has probably been the most important
4:24
thing. I often think about exercise
4:27
as a way to exorcise
4:30
the stuff I got going on inside of me. And the
4:33
physiological, the spiritual, as you know, are all entangled,
4:36
and so it's. There's no delineating
4:39
between the two. So it's. It's a really important time
4:42
for me, man.
4:43
>> Loren: I know that Thursday, uh, yesterday,
4:46
I came home just really exhausted
4:48
from mental and physical grind this week, but
4:51
I got on the treadmill and just kept going. Cause, like, oh,
4:54
uh, I'm exhausted with this. Feels good.
4:57
>> Jonathan Foster: Yep. Yeah, that's how that works. Yep. For
5:00
sure.
5:00
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I wanted to bring Jonathan
5:03
on the show because Jonathan is
5:06
a part of this pretty recent
5:09
formation of a clergy network
5:12
called Open Table Network.
5:15
And as I understand it, it's kind of
5:18
a new credentialing source. Is
5:20
that fair to say?
5:22
>> Jonathan Foster: We're not sure what to call it. It's opentable
5:25
network. Um, it's funny,
5:28
um, we started it together, myself and my
5:30
friend Dana Hicks and also,
5:33
um, Jennifer Miles and Guy Taylor. And so the
5:36
four of us were all kind of in similar
5:38
positions. Jennifer and Guy, more
5:41
coming from chaplaincy and having.
5:44
Needing to be reordained, re
5:47
credentialed, uh, for their
5:49
positions, but also wanted. Wanting to do it in a place that was
5:52
affirming. Both Dana and I having been
5:56
very, uh, much moved out of our former places
5:58
because we were trying to be, uh,
6:01
affirming to the LGBTQ community.
6:04
So, yeah, sometime in 23,
6:07
we said, well, what? Maybe we need to. Need to start something for
6:09
us and invite others. And, uh, so it's grown
6:12
from there, and it is a place to be
6:15
credentialed, to be licensed if you want. It's a place
6:18
for resources. We've started, um, a
6:20
cohort, uh, just so pastors have a
6:23
safe space and chaplains and counselors. Those are the
6:26
three kind of main groups, so that they have a safe
6:29
space to process the, um, as you know, the
6:32
really awkward, weird space we all
6:35
occupy in this, like, post modern age that
6:37
we live in.
6:38
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to talk
6:41
to you, uh, and I had. Jonathan. I'm,
6:44
um, saying that weird. I want to talk to Jonathan today
6:47
on the show just because I think this is such an
6:50
interesting development,
6:53
kind of in light of what you even just said,
6:57
our context in postmoderny,
7:00
post modernity, when we think about
7:03
the decline of institutions.
7:05
Um, so this is kind of going to be
7:08
a wide ranging conversation. I hope it'll make sense
7:11
to you and for our listeners. Jonathan,
7:14
um, you kind of share that
7:16
the big impetus, it sounds like, was folks who've
7:19
been, to use
7:22
strong word, like excommunicated, whether
7:25
intentionally or implicitly from
7:28
their faith tradition. Um,
7:31
as this thing has begun to take shape, like, what are
7:34
the primary, uh, folks? Is it folks
7:37
who no longer fit in their faith tradition? What are the primary
7:39
folks who are coming to this
7:42
network?
7:43
>> Jonathan Foster: Sure. It's very interesting because,
7:46
um, I think that
7:48
theologically, there are deeper issues
7:51
than just the queer affirming issue,
7:54
but, um, that has become kind of the flashpoint. And
7:57
so I would say we're brand new. I mean, we're only a
8:00
few months old, and there's. There's maybe 30 or 40
8:03
people kind of connected. There's maybe at this point, only like
8:06
15, maybe 20, I'm not even sure
8:08
licensed through it. Um,
8:11
but I think as far as I know, everyone, like, that's
8:14
the main thing, that they either were, yes,
8:16
officially excluded from their former
8:19
theological ecclesiological space, or.
8:21
Or we'll put it this way, they knew their
8:24
time was coming. I mean, they just, you know, you saw the
8:27
writing on the wall, and so they're coming because of
8:30
that. But, you know, to me, there
8:33
are that affirming
8:35
queer theology stuff really just stems
8:38
from, as far as I'm concerned, like a
8:41
posture of love, a posture of uncontrolling,
8:44
non binary, nonviolent, non
8:46
scapegoating, uh, uncontrolling love.
8:49
And so, for me, that's really the deeper
8:52
issue. But a lot of people find themselves here
8:54
because the other, it gets
8:57
so much news and so much traction.
9:00
>> Loren: Yeah. So, practically speaking, if I can ask,
9:03
what was the formation look like? Did you all just form
9:06
a non profit and register as a church type
9:08
thing?
9:09
>> Jonathan Foster: Basically, yes. It's funny because I just talked to,
9:12
uh, a new friend. Her name's Elle pike, she's from
9:15
Canada. And they're doing something very similar.
9:18
They started, um, probably about two
9:21
years ago, but we had to laugh because
9:24
she's taken two years to do study groups.
9:27
Uh, she's been meeting with people around the country,
9:30
up north, as it were. Um,
9:32
and just now is getting going on their nonprofit.
9:35
And I do think the canadian process for nonprofiting
9:38
is a longer process anyhow. And after
9:41
we talked a little bit, I just laughed. I said, well, we just
9:44
typical Americans, we did the opposite. Uh, we immediately
9:47
formed a 501 z three, and we
9:50
pulled. Fortunately, uh, a guy was
9:53
really capable, uh, and Jennifer as well,
9:55
and had some resources together to be able to credential
9:58
and, uh, some really nice processes for,
10:01
uh, people to walk through that, though I should say, side
10:04
note for anyone listening who might be interested, like, we really
10:07
take serious, um, if people have
10:10
had, uh, a lot of experience in ministry. So we're not particularly
10:13
interested if someone has spent a few years
10:16
in another, uh, space to have to
10:19
make them go through, jump through a bunch of hoops.
10:22
>> Loren: Well, let's talk about that.
10:25
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, go ahead.
10:26
>> Loren: Yeah, sorry, I was just going to say, let's talk about that. Because
10:28
certainly in my neck of the woods, at least I'll
10:31
say, like, those of us who have been through div
10:34
school and gone through an ordination process, and I
10:37
think you've gone to seminary, right?
10:39
>> Jonathan Foster: That's right. They, uh, don't claim me, but I.
10:41
>> Loren: Yeah, like, at least speaking for
10:44
my friends, we kind of get super annoyed at those who get, like,
10:47
the online ordination,
10:50
um, and then, like, go do their friend's
10:52
wedding. So I don't think you guys want to do,
10:55
like, that kind of thing. Or at least I'll say
10:58
I hope not. But what's kind of like your.
11:01
Is there some, like, guiding principles, some
11:04
shared theology, that sort of thing that really
11:07
provides some cohesion?
11:09
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. So a couple of things. First of all, yeah, I agree with
11:12
you. We're not trying to rubber stamp stuff.
11:14
Um, and we're trying to, uh, walk the line
11:17
between that and also not forcing
11:20
people, like, let's say, in my, uh, for my
11:23
purposes, you know, I had been a pastor and,
11:26
you know, have a master's and a doctorate and had been doing this
11:28
for basically. Well, yeah, a quarter of a
11:31
century. Um, I just.
11:34
I didn't. I wasn't interested in. It is part of
11:37
the reason I didn't jump into some other denominations. I was just not
11:40
interested in going through all the hoops again.
11:42
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
11:43
>> Jonathan Foster: We're trying to kind of walk that line between, um.
11:46
Yeah, we definitely want to vet people and have
11:48
integrity with what we're doing, but also
11:51
not make, um, it a thing where they have to
11:54
start over. So
11:57
theologically, um, where
11:59
Dana and I come from, um, and,
12:02
you know, the trajectory of
12:04
opentable.net work is open and
12:07
relational theology. And so if
12:10
people are familiar with that or process theology,
12:13
um, they're going to already
12:16
be kind of well on their way to
12:18
understanding what we're trying to do.
12:21
And if you go to opentable.net work, you'll see our values.
12:24
You'll see. Again, we tried to keep that sparse,
12:27
but, um, I'm really proud of the way
12:30
that stuff turned out and some of the things that we're
12:33
interested in. I think people will catch a sense right away
12:35
of who we are and what we're trying to do.
12:38
>> Loren: Yeah. So I think as, uh, this
12:41
will release. A couple weeks ago, I did an interview with Ted
12:43
Smith, who wrote a book about the decline,
12:46
really, of theological education and the
12:49
voluntary, voluntary association as the
12:52
primary kind of sociological institutional
12:55
model. And he talked about
12:58
denominations kind of turning into
13:01
the word he uses, affinity groups. And obviously
13:04
there's some real pluses and minuses, I think we'd both
13:07
agree for that sort of thing. Um,
13:10
for one, you said it straight out, like,
13:13
folks who are LGBTQ are on that, um,
13:17
in that context.
13:20
Obviously in this context, they're going
13:23
to find a welcoming and inclusion much more
13:26
than they might find in some other contexts, or certainly not at
13:28
all in certain contexts. But obviously some
13:31
dangers, uh, of affinity groups, is there can be
13:34
very much like an echo chamber,
13:36
um, certainly exclusionary in their own
13:39
right. So what do you think? Broadly speaking,
13:42
as we see this kind of trend increase
13:45
in our culture and even in our faith
13:48
traditions. Um. This is
13:51
kind of a hard question, I suppose, but how do you think about
13:54
that in relation to open table network?
13:57
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And we are an affinity group.
14:00
At some level. It feels like so many of us.
14:03
It's so many. I have these conversations
14:06
every week, sometimes almost every day, where I'm
14:09
meeting new people who
14:12
are still. I mean, loosely speaking,
14:14
like, generally speaking, you would say they're still interested in Jesus,
14:17
but they've been so underwhelmed and
14:20
disillusioned, uh, with the institutionalized
14:23
approach. And so there's hundreds of
14:26
thousands, maybe millions. Probably, uh, no,
14:29
probably millions of believers who are kind of in
14:31
these interesting waters, and
14:34
then a bunch of us who used to be, like,
14:37
leaders or whatever our titles were,
14:40
who are now trying to figure out how to navigate all this. It's
14:43
very, very interesting. And,
14:46
yeah, I think what we've said is,
14:49
like, tribes are important, but what we're trying to
14:52
do is not give way to tribalism.
14:55
So if you can get a tribe without tribalism, I think that's
14:58
super important. Psychologically, sociologically,
15:01
um, emotionally, spiritually. And we're human
15:04
beings. We're wired to be connected. So it's
15:07
important to do. But I think moving forward,
15:10
people who have intellectual integrity
15:13
about all of this are going to be more and more,
15:16
um, invited into situations where they're going to
15:19
hold. They're just going to hold to their,
15:22
um, denominational ties, their association ties, their
15:25
affinity groups with, um. You're just
15:27
gonna probably hold them more loosely. It doesn't mean that they're
15:30
less important. It's just. Good Lord, they're so. I
15:33
mean, pluralism is such a reality in our world
15:36
now. It doesn't make any sense
15:39
to try to force love into one
15:42
small, little pocket. I mean, love works
15:45
in small, little pockets. I mean, God,
15:48
uh, you know, by faith, I think God can fit anywhere.
15:51
I don't think there's any godforsaken space in the cosmos.
15:54
>> Loren: Right.
15:54
>> Jonathan Foster: But I don't think that's the healthiest way forward.
15:57
So, yeah, we're trying to do the tribe without
16:00
tribalism.
16:01
>> Loren: So obviously, like, we've seen the danger of
16:04
institutions in that there is this
16:07
just protect the institution of, uh, at all costs. You
16:10
know, like, we're both sports fans. Like, the NFL has
16:12
been like, protect the shield. You know? It's,
16:15
it's, it's protect the league's
16:18
identity integrity at all costs.
16:21
Yeah, certainly, um, we've seen that in
16:23
denominations. We've seen that in big
16:26
churches where it's protected the denomination,
16:29
uh, Catholicism. Protect
16:32
the church. In big churches, it's
16:35
protect the pastor's brand. Protect the
16:38
church's brand. Um,
16:41
conversely, though, again, I'm
16:43
thinking about this sociologically, there does need to be some level
16:46
of commitment or covenanting or stickiness to
16:49
keep people together. How do you see,
16:52
like, you can answer this kind of how you want to, whether
16:55
it's from an open table perspective, from like a,
16:58
you know, thinking about, uh, groups
17:01
of believers organizing in the future, like, what do you
17:04
think is going to be necessary to kind of maintain that?
17:07
What I think is an important balance, not
17:09
leaning too far the other.
17:12
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, it's, that's a, um. It's something to be
17:15
managed, isn't it? It's not a, it's not a problem to be
17:17
fixed once and for all. I think it's constantly
17:20
ebbing and flowing, in part because our
17:23
contexts ebb and flow and our culture and
17:26
our societies and, um,
17:29
even, you know, to some degree, morality, because
17:32
it's based on customs and culture
17:35
and systems. And all of these things change over
17:37
time. So I know one of the things that we're
17:40
trying to do and something I personally believe in is,
17:43
you know, we're just constantly, as we, as we
17:46
meet and talk about these things, we're committed to not building
17:49
ivory towers and giant headquarters
17:52
and some big place from
17:54
which all the mandates, uh, are
17:57
decreed. From, um,
18:00
instead of that approach, we're trying to say things like, we
18:03
are here to empower local
18:05
missional communities. So
18:08
basically, if you've got an idea that's
18:11
working or something you want to do, uh,
18:14
we're going to try to get behind you rather than the other way
18:17
around. And that was always, I know I won't be the
18:20
only one who feels this way. As, you
18:23
know, there were good things about the denomination I was part of, but it
18:26
was always a sense. I said, even when I was a,
18:28
uh, 20 something and I didn't know anything,
18:31
I was always like, it's just weird how it feels like
18:34
the pastors exist for the benefit of the
18:37
denomination. It should freaking be the other
18:40
way around. It should not be that way.
18:43
And, um, so,
18:46
yeah, we're just trying to keep that in mind. And I think moving
18:49
forward in general, no matter what group you're part of,
18:51
because it's the local missional
18:54
things that really wind up
18:57
making so much of the difference. Kind of like
19:00
politics, you know, we get all wound up about who's going to be the next
19:03
president. Meanwhile, like, I don't know what the percentage is,
19:06
but there's a high percentage of. It's never even
19:08
going to matter whether Trump or Biden is, for
19:11
me personally, is the next president. Um,
19:14
it's about state legislation
19:17
and local and community. So I think
19:20
keeping that in mind, whatever happens is really important.
19:24
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you made that point about. I think
19:27
some of the clergy I know would agree,
19:29
who work in, uh, some contexts. So I'm
19:32
thinking, as someone who grew up
19:34
independent, in an independent Baptist tradition, where there
19:37
was no, there was no formal
19:40
denominational ties, there was very loose networks.
19:43
Um, and then again, I currently am
19:45
ordained in a mainline tradition that is pretty
19:49
rigid, pretty, uh, organized. And certainly other
19:52
mainline traditions are even more so with higher
19:55
barriers of entry and higher
19:57
regulations.
20:00
Certainly we've talked about some of the negatives
20:02
of denominations and
20:05
institutions. Certainly, um, one
20:08
positive, I think, would be
20:11
kind, um, of accountability and,
20:14
um, just kind of keep an eye on
20:17
folks. I'm thinking about one of the real
20:19
problems in, when we think about
20:22
the SBC, southern Baptist, their denomination,
20:25
but they're not very top down,
20:28
obviously, at least as I understand it. So suddenly
20:31
there's that big scandal where there are just churches where
20:34
just turn the blind eye to
20:37
offenders and passing the buck along,
20:40
where with a more top heavy
20:42
approach. I mean, I say it
20:45
won't work, but obviously happened within Catholicism. But
20:48
theoretically, right, theoretically, the system is
20:51
supposed to kind of keep those things from
20:53
happening. So what do you think?
20:55
Um, the dangers are,
20:58
um, not necessarily just within open table,
21:01
but in these kind of looser, um.
21:03
Um, these looser structures, like, whether
21:06
it be certainly, certainly, um,
21:09
harm, um, is one way, but, you know,
21:11
theological. I sure
21:14
do not love the word, but I think you get it. You can hope get a sense of what I'm
21:17
saying. Right. Theological cohesion, mate, will say it
21:20
that way.
21:21
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. It's almost like, pick your poison, man.
21:23
>> Loren: Right?
21:24
>> Jonathan Foster: If you're going to do ministry in the post post
21:27
modern age that we live in, which is how I kind of reference
21:29
it, you know, you're. You're gonna have to have a
21:32
tribe and you, I mean, you
21:35
don't have to, you can go out and do your own thing, but there
21:38
are lots of, like we've said positive things associated
21:41
with it, by the way. There may be a pension associated
21:43
with it, you know, a paycheck or something like that. Those
21:46
were the good old days, weren't they?
21:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:48
>> Jonathan Foster: Um, you know, and it's.
21:50
>> Loren: I.
21:51
>> Jonathan Foster: What I used to always say when I was church planting was when I
21:54
was a part of the Church of the Nazarene was, uh,
21:57
you know, we're doctrinally and fiscally
22:00
accountable to these people, which I always
22:03
thought, especially as a church plant, when you're starting with nothing
22:05
was a really healthy thing. And in theory it
22:08
is until.
22:11
Until the doctrine gets all skewed
22:14
and even the finances at times can get
22:16
skewed. So it is not an easy.
22:19
There's no one fix. It's not an easy
22:22
thing. Um, open table. I mean, I feel good about
22:25
it in the sense that I can tell you this. It has never been my
22:28
dream to start a denomination or an
22:30
association or whatever the heck we call ourselves. That
22:33
is never a part of my five year, 20 year
22:36
plan. Um, it's just emerged
22:39
because there's obviously such
22:42
a need for it, and we're in such an,
22:44
again, awkward, interesting phase.
22:47
And so here we are, me and my colleagues, and, you know, we have
22:50
some experience. We've been around. We've got
22:53
a few intelligent things to say. We've also got a lot of
22:56
unintelligent things to say. Um, so we just thought,
22:59
well, we're going to put this together and see if we can help
23:02
people. But, yeah, you're asking great questions, because
23:05
there are no perfect answers to this, for sure.
23:07
>> Loren: Well, I think what I'm hearing from you,
23:10
and this is a position that I've been coming to more and
23:13
more late, is so much as I try to
23:16
live according to, is just trying to hold this
23:19
tension between two things.
23:21
And obviously, like, it's easy to get pulled
23:24
in one direction or another.
23:27
Um, and I hear a lot of that in what you're
23:29
saying.
23:31
>> Jonathan Foster: I think so. I think that's the way to live life,
23:33
personally. I think that's the way more and more people
23:36
are living life. You know, all of our institutions, whether they're
23:39
economic, political, religious, national,
23:42
military, um, they're
23:45
full of cracks and crevices, actually. They always
23:48
have been.
23:49
>> Loren: Right.
23:49
>> Jonathan Foster: It's just because of the. Probably because of the Internet,
23:52
because of the fact that we get news, you know,
23:55
up to the second news, and we see problems everywhere. It's.
23:58
It's just in our face. So we're just aware of it more
24:01
than ever. And it's a really. It's a. I started to
24:03
say dangerous time. I don't like that word because. Because
24:06
there's also a lot of potential. It's just a very
24:09
interesting, potentially good, potentially
24:12
bad time. And so for folks out
24:15
there, men or women who have,
24:18
or people who are in some kind of nonbinary
24:22
state there, too, I should say, who have felt a
24:24
call and an invitation to be, again, a pastor or
24:27
a counselor, a spiritual director, a leader, a chaplain.
24:31
Um, yeah.
24:33
It takes a lot out of you to kind of figure out
24:37
how do you want to move forward with all of that. And I think
24:39
living in the tension is a Jesus move. I
24:42
think it's an embodied love move, and I think it's the only
24:45
thing we can really do. We don't need to do it and
24:48
be disrespectful of other institutions, although,
24:51
well, I'll say this way, we don't need to be disrespectful
24:54
of people in other institutions. I personally
24:57
kind of don't really care that much if we're disrespectful to the
25:00
institution itself.
25:01
>> Loren: Sure, I can live with that. Yeah.
25:03
>> Jonathan Foster: Some of these systems, man, they've been living off
25:06
the fat of the hog, so to speak, for, you
25:08
know, at least 18 centuries since
25:11
the time of Constantine.
25:14
Um, and it's just not right. I mean, it took
25:16
1800 years for us to figure out slavery was wrong. It took
25:19
1900 years to figure out women should vote. It's taken
25:22
us a couple thousand years to figure out queer
25:25
folk are like real life human beings.
25:27
And all of that was perpetrated,
25:30
again, good people. But the systems
25:33
themselves, um, can get really
25:36
skewed and sideways. Yeah,
25:39
I keep saying the same thing. We just live in an interesting
25:42
time. Um, and it
25:45
takes a lot of courage to keep moving forward in all of this.
25:47
>> Loren: So let's talk about moving forward.
25:50
I think, and I imagine you'd probably agree, we're going
25:53
to continue to see denomination
25:56
splinter and split and diminish.
25:59
I mean, I think, frankly, that's going to be a big
26:02
draw for, like, your open
26:05
table. What do you think? I mean, do you
26:08
think this is a trend? Do you think you're kind of ahead of the curve? What do you
26:10
see?
26:12
>> Jonathan Foster: Well, um, I
26:14
always try to get ahead of the curve, but it seems like, uh,
26:17
I never quite am. Um, but, um, it
26:20
seems like I get hit by the curveball.
26:22
>> Loren: Yeah, no, I totally agree.
26:24
>> Jonathan Foster: I totally agree. I think, yes, there's going to be
26:27
more fractures and splinters and. And on
26:30
one level, it's nuts, because we have already, depending
26:33
on, I hear, 30,000, maybe 40,000
26:36
just protestant denominations alone,
26:38
counting eastern orthodox and catholic and all
26:41
that. Um, so, good lord,
26:44
we don't need any more splintering. On
26:47
the other hand, uh, there's something good about
26:50
it, too, because the
26:53
splintering splits you up into smaller groups. And again, kind
26:56
of like the local missionalized, missional
26:58
things. And so maybe that's a really. I think there's some
27:01
really positive stuff about that. I don't see
27:04
it going anywhere else. There's no chance that there's going to be
27:07
one big, mega church, unless one big,
27:10
mega denomination, unless, you know, something like
27:13
christian nationalism might
27:16
be able to pull, um, which they
27:19
already kind of do to some degree. And that's a nauseating
27:21
thought.
27:22
>> Paul: Yeah.
27:22
>> Jonathan Foster: Um, by the way, christian nationalism, for the
27:24
listeners, I don't mean just conservative. I mean, uh,
27:28
there's liberal christian nationalism, too, but
27:30
the conservative one is kind of the one that's more in your face and
27:33
kind of more gross, right?
27:36
Yeah.
27:37
>> Loren: Um, I want to say one more point on this, too.
27:40
I'm thinking about, like, in my
27:43
conversation with Carol Howard and also with Ted
27:45
Smith, the point came up about how, especially
27:48
with some denominations, and you kind of alluded to this, like,
27:51
there's so many hoops to jump through that,
27:55
um, as the pastor,
27:58
as a profession, becomes more and more,
28:01
I should say, less and less financially
28:04
sustainable, um, I do think it's
28:06
important for us to have
28:09
credentialing, to use that word, um,
28:12
ordaining models that don't require
28:15
an M div or don't require seminary debt. So
28:18
I think that's another reason why your
28:20
model is intriguing, because
28:24
I think it's gonna be important, you know, to have other
28:27
models or avenues to some kind of
28:30
ministry credentialing that aren't gonna
28:32
require, you know,
28:35
such, um, rigid standards.
28:38
>> Jonathan Foster: I know it's tricky. Um, we gotta have standards.
28:41
>> Loren: It is tricky.
28:42
>> Jonathan Foster: It is trick, especially if you're leading people. There's so
28:45
many needs. I mean, to be a. We'll, uh,
28:48
just say spiritual leader, for lack of a better phrase, to be
28:51
that in any day and age, for sure. But the day and age we
28:54
live in, it's complicated, man. There's so much
28:57
mimetic dysfunction out there. There's so many politics.
29:00
There's so much, you know, um,
29:03
spiritual manipulation and
29:05
weirdness. And people come into your
29:08
practice or your church that are strange, and they
29:11
project all this stuff on you. Um,
29:14
not to mention, like, you got to have ways to figure
29:17
out how to read your sacred texts, in our case, the Bible. And
29:20
if you don't have some education,
29:22
um, you know, we'd all like. We'd all love to
29:25
say, well, love will just lead us. But as
29:28
you and I both know, there's some really complicated stuff. So,
29:31
yeah, just trying to walk that line between
29:34
encouraging education, but not incurring
29:37
all this debt, um, figuring out ways to,
29:40
to stay educated and, and not,
29:43
uh, have to do kind of the traditional route, which is what you're
29:46
saying that people have done and have put them in a
29:49
really tough position financially. So,
29:52
yeah, it's interesting.
29:54
>> Loren: Whoever's listening to this is probably like, are these guys going to make up
29:56
their mind? Like, they're talking all over the place, like on both sides. And I think
29:59
that's really the case. Like, we're trying to acknowledge, like,
30:02
the complexity of this. And like, you know,
30:05
like, as those words were coming out of my mouth,
30:08
I'm like, oh, man. But I do really value theological
30:11
education. I do really value rigid
30:15
ethics and ethical guidelines. But
30:18
also it's a both and
30:20
tension thing, I think has been the theme of this
30:23
conversation.
30:24
>> Jonathan Foster: Absolutely. One good thing is we live now
30:27
in this, um, time period, obviously, with the
30:30
Internet and so many resources. I mean, this is
30:33
unprecedented in the history of humanity. So
30:36
people can get educated now in
30:39
ways that, if they wanted to, could be
30:42
a lot less expensive in the past.
30:45
Part of the problem is, do we
30:48
recognize those people? Do we recognize,
30:51
for example, and that's part of the reason why@opentable.net.
30:53
Work. We're not making people who've pastored for
30:56
20 years jump through a bunch of hoops because we want to
30:59
recognize the fact that experience that accounts for
31:02
something, it means something that you can't get
31:05
in a seminary classroom, um,
31:08
or, you know, from a traditional thing. So,
31:11
yeah, it's just muddy. I'll muddy the waters even
31:14
more by saying that, um, there's got to be ways moving
31:17
forward where we can, uh,
31:19
informally formalize the way
31:22
someone can learn theologically, psychologically,
31:25
emotionally, and, um,
31:28
yeah, we're kind of open to those things at opentable.
31:31
We're trying to play catch up with a lot of it. But, um, I
31:34
think that's a really interesting discussion.
31:36
>> Loren: Yeah, it is.
31:39
I want to shift the conversation because I feel like we could stay in
31:42
these muddy waters forever, but I want to shift the
31:44
conversation towards, I think, a
31:47
subplot or a sub theme of this.
31:51
Ah, and that's to grief. And it's even
31:54
hard to talk about, I think. Ah, and you're well acquainted with grief.
31:57
You have a book you wrote on grief. You mentioned
32:00
the loss of your daughter and how that shaped your family's
32:03
life. I'm thinking about
32:05
this as I
32:08
wrestle with my own grief, um, just thinking
32:11
about my own professional career in
32:13
ministry, or it seems like a lack thereof,
32:16
moving forward I think about folks
32:20
like yourself who committed so many
32:23
years to a, uh, denomination or
32:25
traditional, only to find themselves
32:28
at odds or even actively
32:32
transitioned out of those traditions
32:36
or churches or what. Have you,
32:39
uh, have you encountered
32:42
such a situation at an open table?
32:44
Um, whether you want to speak to this
32:47
personally or professionally, uh, share more about
32:50
that, if you would.
32:52
>> Paul: Yeah.
32:52
>> Jonathan Foster: Thank to like you for asking, and thank you for asking it in
32:55
that way, because, Loren, I think that is
32:58
a big piece of what is going on
33:00
across the country. I mean, it's not like
33:03
I travel a lot, but I'm in and out, and
33:06
I talk to quite a few people in a lot of different
33:09
situations. And I would say
33:11
one of the, on the, on the short list of common
33:15
denominators that is connecting a lot of
33:18
american christian spiritual
33:21
sojourners at this point is this idea of
33:24
grief. It's the idea that this thing just did
33:27
not go like we thought it was going to go.
33:30
Um, the dream of whatever that church was or that
33:33
pastor it was, or even if you haven't been a pastor,
33:37
especially when you get to be my age, I'm a little bit older than you, but I'm in my
33:39
fifties. I'm a grandpa now, by the way. Got a two month
33:42
old granddaughter. Um, did I show you
33:45
a picture last week of my granddaughter?
33:47
>> Loren: I don't know. We'll have to do it here when we're done. I probably should have.
33:50
Yeah.
33:52
>> Jonathan Foster: But, um, when you get to be my age, it's funny, my partner
33:55
and I, we talk all the time. Uh, she was just
33:58
saying something about this the other night, but, uh, how,
34:01
you know, when you've been serving in the church for lots of years and
34:04
you get to be our age, you're like, everyone's pretty much done. They're like, they
34:07
just, they're so tired. They've had it. They've been through
34:10
so many battles. Add on top
34:13
of all the craziness that's happened in our world
34:16
over the last 1020 years, and then if
34:19
you add any personal stuff like she and I have been
34:21
through, um, yeah, you just
34:24
realize that life is like, you go from one
34:27
expectation to the next, and,
34:30
um, it's very frustrating. So I
34:33
think a lot of people are grieving. They're grieving the loss, and you
34:36
don't have to have been. I hope you haven't been someone like me who's
34:39
lost a kid. You know, you may have
34:42
lost a marriage, or it just may have been
34:44
death of a dream or death of the
34:47
way you thought things were going to go.
34:50
What is interesting is, well,
34:53
there's a lot of things, but essentially Jesus
34:56
said this whole dealing with lost
34:59
thing, it's a prerequisite for joy
35:01
because he said, blessed are those who mourn.
35:05
So maybe, again,
35:08
back to the theme we already kind of talked about. Maybe we're living
35:11
in a day and age when it's both
35:14
deeply troubling and problematic
35:17
and hurtful, but also
35:20
deeply replete, full of the
35:22
possibility of blessing. Because if we can,
35:25
just like, there's this fine line
35:28
between. Hmm hm. What do I want to
35:30
say? Fine line between, like, complaining
35:33
about something and I'm hesitant about that because
35:36
I'm, uh. I think there are times when you complain. And
35:39
trust me, you know, having been through what we've been through, I've, I've
35:42
complained a few days. But there's a fine line between
35:45
that and a, uh, lament.
35:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:49
>> Paul: Mourning.
35:49
>> Jonathan Foster: Um, and, you know,
35:52
also nihilism.
35:55
And by the way, not to plug my book, but indigo, the color of
35:57
grief, really is an attempt
36:00
at one level to try to be
36:03
intellectually honest. Sorry, I think that's a fourth or fifth time
36:06
I said that phrase.
36:07
>> Loren: No, it's fine. Yeah.
36:09
>> Jonathan Foster: I was trying to be honest with how you can
36:12
go really hard one way or the other.
36:14
Like, when you go through loss, you can really
36:18
double down on the old. Like, if you're a Christian,
36:21
you can double down on the old, maybe holiness codes or, you
36:23
know, behavioral modification and go really lean
36:26
hard into God's control, or you can
36:29
go crazy the other way and nihilistic and
36:32
say, you know, God's. There is no God. And.
36:34
Yeah, and I can have a measure of respect for
36:37
both. I probably have, huh. Maybe a little more respect for the latter
36:40
than the former, but it
36:43
feels like living in the tension between the
36:46
two is where you kind of have
36:49
to be. And I. We're just not.
36:52
We're just not great at that. Our, uh, our institutions haven't
36:55
conditioned us to do that. But I can't blame it
36:58
all in the institutions because personally,
37:01
you know, I, you know, it's just not what I signed up
37:04
for with life. You know, I was looking for more black
37:07
and white kind of really, really,
37:10
really positive answers versus all this gray.
37:13
But, yeah, I think you're right to frame it in,
37:16
um, a perspective of grief because I think a lot of
37:19
people are struggling with that.
37:22
>> Loren: And I think what makes this so hard, if
37:25
I can be honest, is
37:28
like, as clergy, we're the trained
37:31
caregiver in most contexts that we're
37:33
in a, and then
37:36
b, because our
37:39
profession is. Also tends to be tied
37:42
to our spiritual community. When we leave that
37:44
profession, we tend to leave that spiritual
37:47
community. Um,
37:50
like my daughter, who's like a
37:53
preteen, she's like, dad, we've changed churches so much. I'm
37:56
like,
37:59
because I work for a church
38:01
or have. That's a hard dynamic, isn't
38:04
it?
38:05
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. Just adding to the complexity that we
38:07
already, man, people tuning in who aren't pastors,
38:10
they're like, they should be so grateful they're
38:13
not pastors right now. Yeah. Another
38:16
thing I thought of when you said that, too.
38:18
Um, we're caregivers.
38:21
And then to be pushed
38:24
out, you know, kicked out in my case,
38:26
officially, and lots of other places unofficially. It
38:29
is a. It's a mind trip. We're also.
38:33
A lot of us are kind of like, when you're
38:35
clergy, you play, like, a meaning making
38:38
role in your, uh, community. So when bad
38:41
things happen, you help people make meaningful.
38:43
>> Loren: Right.
38:44
>> Jonathan Foster: Well, what's crazy is when bad
38:47
things happen, like, if it's bad enough, like, uh, for
38:49
example, in my situation, my entire meaning making
38:52
system, you know, just kind of fell apart,
38:55
right? So now I was trying to create meaning in the middle of
38:58
chaos, right? And the poor people who had to come to
39:01
my church, I mean, I say poor people, some of them
39:04
were really, really great and, uh, learned a
39:07
lot. Um, that's a whole interesting dynamic,
39:10
too. And I think a lot of meaning making clergy
39:13
people types, counselor chaplain types are in that
39:16
position. Their lives, personally are
39:18
being unwound sometimes
39:21
and really beautiful, but the beauty is always attached to
39:24
the dark, really bad stuff,
39:27
too. And so to
39:30
navigate all that at the same time, you're trying to create meaning for
39:33
others. Holy smoke. What a trip
39:36
that is, man.
39:38
>> Loren: This is tough stuff, but I think good stuff, and
39:40
I hope it's resonating with the listeners.
39:43
Let me ask you one more question here before we move
39:46
on. So, again, I'm going to
39:49
refer back to my conversation with Ted Smith,
39:52
and he talked about the model of a
39:55
chaplain as being a really future model
39:57
because it signifies you as
40:00
a spiritual leader, but not necessarily tied
40:03
to a institution.
40:06
Uh, like a pastor doesn't
40:09
have to be, but it's often tied to a church, often in
40:12
a specific church where a, uh,
40:15
chaplain, for instance, the hospital
40:18
chaplain, even a corporate chaplain, may or may not work
40:21
for that actual institution. Do you
40:23
see? Have you thought
40:26
about how opentable might be a part of that, or
40:29
what that model even might look like, uh,
40:32
of a spiritual leader? Not necessarily
40:35
tied to an institution.
40:38
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, that's very interesting.
40:41
Um, I don't know if I've formally thought
40:44
through that. Informally. I think so
40:46
because it's kind of my world and your world, too.
40:49
We kind of are in it all the time.
40:53
Some of it is like, your
40:55
response to, like, well, what kind of title do you want? And what is
40:58
the connotation of that title?
41:00
>> Paul: Or.
41:00
>> Loren: Right. Cause, like, I wanna call myself a pastor because,
41:03
like, I think pastorally, and I care
41:06
for people pastorally, but pastors are,
41:09
by and large connected. Like, they're seen as
41:12
being connected to a church in a leadership role. And that's not
41:15
where I am right now.
41:16
>> Paul: Right.
41:17
>> Jonathan Foster: I think this speaks to the need for
41:20
expanded imagination around our language.
41:22
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
41:23
>> Jonathan Foster: And language is, you know, it's important.
41:26
We got to have it. Obviously, it's fundamental to who we
41:29
are, but we just get so
41:32
locked into certain things. So,
41:35
uh. Uh, while we're expanding our theological,
41:39
um, paradigms and perspectives and imagination,
41:42
we should. The language is all a part of it,
41:44
too. I agree. Like, it's funny, I've been a
41:47
pastor most of my life. I still do pastoral things. I
41:50
still talk to people every single day.
41:53
People text me or email me, message me. By the way, you can't
41:56
facebook me right now because Facebook just suspended my account,
41:59
so.
42:00
>> Loren: Oh, man.
42:00
>> Jonathan Foster: Pretty interesting. Yeah. Um,
42:03
but. But I. But I'm not really a
42:06
pastor, like chaplain. I
42:09
totally agree with what Ted and what you're saying, I think.
42:11
But also that word, to me, the connotation. And it's probably just
42:14
my own stuff. Probably. It's probably a great word,
42:17
but it seems passive in some sense,
42:20
some senses.
42:21
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's a feeling like that. Yeah.
42:23
>> Jonathan Foster: But then again, I don't need an aggressive. Like, I used to
42:26
be part of a pretty relatively
42:28
evangelical church planning network that,
42:31
in retrospect, now that I have some years behind me, I realize
42:34
was really informed more by
42:36
competitive american exceptionalism and
42:39
toxic masculinity than it is anything else.
42:42
So if I had to choose between passive and that, I'd go
42:45
passive. So I'm trying to come up with a
42:47
name. I saw something today where
42:50
the guy said he was a, um. Get this. He
42:53
said he was a solv'em probbler,
42:57
a solvent.
42:59
>> Loren: Mhm.
43:00
>> Jonathan Foster: And I thought, how do you spell.
43:01
>> Loren: That, then solve em.
43:03
>> Jonathan Foster: S o l v e m m. Probler. Probler.
43:06
>> Loren: Oh, I was thinking that was like s
43:09
o u l sol them.
43:11
>> Jonathan Foster: Problem. It could be, but it's a takeoff, obviously. Problem
43:14
solver. He's a solvent problem. And I'm like, okay, I
43:17
like that, but that's just silly. Like, I used to call myself,
43:20
um, what do I used to call myself?
43:23
Oh, the most recent church plant, I
43:26
called myself lead follower. Ten
43:29
years I did that. And that always led to interesting discussions.
43:32
Before that, I was spiritual environmentalist at the
43:35
church plant. Before that, yeah. So
43:37
I'm always playing with that, trying to figure
43:40
out what these words mean and trying
43:43
to break out of the stereotypical
43:46
molds of what these things mean. But the greater
43:48
point is plurality
43:51
is a reality in our world. We need lots
43:54
of people in all different walks of
43:57
life who are feeling
43:59
esteemed by their tribes,
44:02
also feeling self esteemed, feeling esteemed by
44:05
God and love to step forward and
44:08
to lead. As much as
44:10
I have, uh, a conflicted
44:13
relationship with the word lead or leadership, but
44:16
that stuff's really important. And, um, so we all
44:19
just need to step up and try to figure out how to create those
44:22
spaces and those names and those titles.
44:24
>> Loren: Well, it goes back to our theme of earlier,
44:27
holding that tension, holding that balance between the two.
44:30
Right?
44:30
>> Jonathan Foster: Yep. Yep.
44:32
>> Loren: Well, usually I build on a break here, but I kind of want to
44:35
just stay with this momentum and ask you this silly
44:38
question, Jonathan. Um, uh, because
44:42
like, you are in some
44:44
ways like the highest level
44:47
denominational official I've ever interviewed.
44:51
>> Jonathan Foster: That's really funny, man, and really
44:54
sad.
44:55
>> Loren: No, and I'm actually hoping to get my
44:58
denominational, uh, lead person on here
45:00
soon, but I'm kind of being
45:03
loose with the term denomination and that's, I guess that's what
45:06
I'm making a play on words here is that you're
45:09
co founder of the denominations or you're like co president
45:12
of the denomination. So
45:15
this is the question. Um, if
45:18
you expanded your influence
45:21
and you were some might call it a pope
45:24
for a day, what
45:27
would you want to do with that
45:30
influence for a day?
45:32
>> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, well, first of all, it's pretty funny. When we started this
45:35
thing, I told my friend Dana, I'll, uh, help, however.
45:38
But I wasn't going to be the president, so he's the
45:41
president on the papers, so he's the official
45:44
guy. Um, and
45:47
I'm helping him. I just say that to make sure, if Dana listens
45:50
to this, I have absolved
45:53
myself of all responsibility. That's pretty
45:56
funny. What would I want to do for the day?
45:59
It would have to be something around, like
46:02
just helping people re
46:05
approach the concept of love. I
46:08
think that the essence of God is love.
46:11
I think it's biblical. I think philosophically, it
46:14
makes the most sense. I think, practically
46:17
speaking, it makes the most sense. What's been
46:20
interesting in my journey? Well, there's a lot of things
46:23
that have been interesting, but one thing that's been interesting is
46:26
I didn't realize I was doing this, but when I set
46:29
out on this new journey, I actually, in many ways, was
46:32
redefining love. In the old
46:34
days, love was. I'm not
46:37
really sure what it was. It had something to do with hierarchy and
46:40
sacrifice and doing the right thing and
46:42
morality, and some of that still plays
46:45
in. But now when I think of love, I go,
46:49
it's this uncontrolling, non binary, nonscape,
46:52
goating, nonviolent energy that's in a relationship
46:54
with God and with others,
46:57
and it's meant for good and blessing in the world.
47:00
And every single one of those words
47:04
are pretty well vetted in my life. I mean, I've
47:06
written some books about them. I mean, they may not be good books, but, I
47:09
mean, I've written. I've put some words behind them, and
47:13
I've spoken a few times about them.
47:16
Um, and I've logged a lot of hours staring
47:18
at the ceiling and again, taking hikes and
47:21
walks in all parts of the country, trying to figure out what
47:24
I think. And so it's fascinating. Each one of those
47:27
things are really, um, important
47:30
concepts. And so if I had a. Well,
47:33
you're asking if I could make a mandate. Well, that's
47:35
completely. It's completely antithetical to open a relational
47:38
theology. If this is a
47:41
consensual thing, then I can't make a mandate.
47:44
But I would highly encourage, invite
47:47
everyone into deeper and
47:49
deeper instantiations of
47:52
love.
47:52
>> Loren: You would seek to persuade them, right?
47:55
>> Jonathan Foster: I would lay out the lure, yes.
47:58
I would invite them and persuade them to
48:01
do my best to persuade them to think even more
48:04
deeply, to throw off the shackles of
48:07
the myth of redemptive sacrifice, and to lean into
48:10
the freedom and the grace of love.
48:12
>> Loren: Well, this is good. Uh, you really leaned
48:15
into that quite well. So thank you for engaging
48:18
that question. So, since you mentioned your
48:21
books here, I do want to give you some opportunity to plug the books,
48:24
because I've had the privilege of
48:26
reading. Um, actually,
48:30
uh, I think all three of your books here, right. The
48:32
reconstructionist. Um, what's the second
48:35
one?
48:35
>> Jonathan Foster: Theology of consent.
48:37
>> Loren: Theology of consent. And then the one you just, uh,
48:39
released in go, which I just want to
48:42
say, I don't know if this is good or bad, Jonathan, for
48:45
you, but I have not fully engaged it, because
48:48
it's so raw and
48:51
deep, um, that I've had to flip
48:54
through it and look at stuff, and I don't know if I've been in a
48:57
space where I can fully engage.
48:59
So I guess it speaks to, I think, the richness
49:02
and depthness of that book. But, uh, say what
49:05
else you. Anything else you want to say about your works
49:08
there?
49:09
>> Jonathan Foster: Thank you for inviting me to say stuff. Um, yeah,
49:12
you're not the only one who's done that with Indigo. I've had a lot of
49:14
even closer friends who have
49:17
picked it up and even family members. Yeah, actually, my
49:20
sister just told me a couple weeks ago. And it's
49:23
funny because she's always one of my biggest fans. I
49:26
mean, I tell you what, Loren. Everyone needs a big sister
49:29
in their life who's a big
49:31
fan. And of. She has,
49:34
um, all three of my sisters have been big
49:37
fans. But anyhow, she told me a couple weeks ago she
49:40
was an early reader back before it was published,
49:43
but she hasn't read it yet. And it sits by her
49:45
bedside because she's just got to get in the right frame
49:48
of mind now. It's probably not good. I'm scaring
49:51
people. Um, I will say it's on audio, so
49:54
that might be easier. It might be easier to listen to it than turn pages.
49:57
>> Paul: Um.
49:59
>> Jonathan Foster: But, yeah, that's, um, been an
50:02
important book for me. Reconstructionist was important.
50:05
That gives a little insight into
50:07
how I kind of rewound when I decided
50:10
I wasn't just going to deconstruct, but I wanted to
50:13
reconstruct. And I decided to do it around three
50:16
basic things. Well, I didn't decide. I realized after the
50:19
fact that three things had basically happened to me, and
50:22
that is that, um, all my questions
50:25
I was having, I kept running through these three filters.
50:28
One was mercy is greater than sacrifice. And
50:30
number two is people are greater than the text.
50:33
And number three is love is greater than fear.
50:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:37
>> Jonathan Foster: What I discovered was every question I had
50:40
theologically, every question I had about human
50:42
sexuality, um, about,
50:45
uh, omnipotence,
50:47
the bible, all these things,
50:50
eschatology. When I
50:53
worked all of my questions through those three filters, and
50:56
when I came out on love, people and mercy,
50:58
that's the kind of theology I wanted. So
51:01
that's the reconstructionist. That's with choir publishing. And then theology
51:04
of consent is, uh, back with
51:07
sacrosage. And that's about. Yeah,
51:09
mimetic theory as it. It's me
51:12
talking about how I think memetic theory is wired and then how
51:15
I think open and relational theology is wired. And then I
51:18
crossed the wires, and I watched the smoke fly
51:21
and try to come up with something of
51:24
depth there. I also have a nice little book
51:27
with a snappy title, questions about sexuality, that got
51:30
me uninvited for my denomination.
51:32
>> Loren: Rolls off the tongue there.
51:34
>> Jonathan Foster: Just rolls right off the tongue. There's so many
51:37
words on the COVID you can't even quite fit it on the COVID
51:39
But, yeah, so thanks for asking about the
51:42
books.
51:43
>> Loren: Yeah. And I'll just give a plug. I know we're running long here, but, like
51:46
the reconstructionist, what was it? Mercy over sacrifice,
51:49
love over text. The third one.
51:50
>> Jonathan Foster: Again, people are greater than the text.
51:53
Uh, mercy is greater than sacrifice, and love is greater
51:56
than fear.
51:57
>> Loren: Yeah, love. Great. Uh, I think those are really,
52:00
really solid foundational pieces. And hopefully, I don't
52:03
think I'm misrepresenting you. Having read the book, you're
52:06
not throwing out sacrifice or the
52:09
text or fear. You're saying, that's
52:12
right. If you're saying, again, to that balance
52:14
intentionally, if we got to choose one of the
52:17
over, like, we choose mercy over
52:20
sacrifice, we choose people over
52:22
text. Because, again, like
52:25
Jesus said, I think the Sabbath is meant to serve the people,
52:28
not people, Sabbath. Right.
52:30
>> Jonathan Foster: Right now, it's a really important point. Like,
52:33
even with sacrifice, what it required me to do, and
52:36
I do more. I show my work in theology of
52:38
consent. Um, on this, it required
52:41
me to go back and to think in terms of,
52:43
well, okay, some sacrifice is good. Like, there's
52:46
altruistic sacrifice that's given your life away. But what it
52:49
boiled down to, the long and short of it, was
52:52
consent became the thing for me. I was like,
52:55
oh, agency, empowerment,
52:58
individual. Like, consent. Like, God's not forcing
53:01
anybody to sacrifice, but love will invite
53:04
you. And when you're invited and you consent
53:06
to it, it'll take you down an interesting journey. But if
53:09
you don't, love's not going to forsake you.
53:12
So it's that kind of stuff. And you're right. I'm not
53:15
trying to disregard all the other stuff. I'm just
53:18
saying, I don't know. There's a healthier
53:21
way to work through these things, Jeff.
53:23
>> Loren: Yeah, well, this is good stuff. Uh, we got to get
53:26
going here. So how can people connect with you? Give your
53:29
website. That's the thing.
53:31
>> Jonathan Foster: Sure. Thanks. Jonathan Foster
53:33
online.com is the website. They can
53:36
go there, find out about the books. They can sign up for my
53:38
substack newsletter. They can find out about the work we're
53:41
doing in Haiti, and, uh, any number of
53:44
things they can find out there.
53:46
>> Loren: And the super titled podcast
53:49
Jonathan Foster.
53:51
>> Jonathan Foster: That's right, they can find out about Jonathan
53:54
Foster podcast with the coolest
53:56
probably name in the history of all
53:59
podcasts.
54:00
>> Loren: Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation. Always
54:03
leave folks with the word of peace. So may God's peace
54:06
be with you.
54:07
>> Jonathan Foster: Thank you.
54:08
>> Paul: Um, thanks for joining us on the
54:11
Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Loren
54:14
or the podcast, visit future dash
54:17
christian.com. One more thing before you
54:20
go, do us a favor and subscribe to the
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54:33
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54:38
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54:44
Thanks and go in peace.