Latest / I Do, Part 2 / Fighting 101 (Part 1) Toxic Politeness Is Ruining Our Relationships

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Fighting 101 (Part 1) Toxic Politeness Is Ruining Our Relationships · I Do, Part 2

0:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. It
0:05
Speaker 1: is Saturday, August 29th, and we're going to try something today.
0:09
Speaker 1: I hope you guys get something out of it, but
0:11
Speaker 1: we're going to do a little mini series, Fighting 101.
0:15
Speaker 1: And the idea is to help anyone in a relationship
0:19
Speaker 1: communicate better, connect better, and yes, even fight better. And today,
0:25
Speaker 1: or at least our first part one, is on this
0:29
Speaker 1: notion of toxic politeness, or What one expert calls unhealthy peace.
0:35
Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you in any way? Does that
0:38
Speaker 1: sound like something you're familiar with? Just this idea of
0:41
Speaker 1: toxic politeness or having an unhealthy peace in your relationship.
0:47
Speaker 2: I'm listening.
0:49
Speaker 1: All right. This comes from an article in the New
0:52
Speaker 1: York Times and the author of a book called The
0:55
Speaker 1: Art of Fighting. She's a conflict resolution facilitator. I didn't
0:59
Speaker 1: even know that was a thing, but sounds like a
1:02
Speaker 1: pretty cool job. And her name's Priya Parker, but she
1:04
Speaker 1: even talked about how despite that being her job, she
1:08
Speaker 1: still struggles even in her own marriage, which I think
1:10
Speaker 1: made sense. us readers feel a little bit better that, yes,
1:14
Speaker 1: even the experts struggle when it comes to personally dealing
1:18
Speaker 1: with relationships. But she argues that we could all use
1:21
Speaker 1: more fighting, more conflict. We just need to be better
1:25
Speaker 1: at how we do it. Do you buy that?
1:29
Speaker 2: Again, I'm listening, but no, it doesn't make sense yet.
1:33
Speaker 1: Her whole concept with this is that intentional, thoughtful conflict
1:39
Speaker 1: is actually leads to greater connection and relationships often fall
1:44
Speaker 1: apart because we're afraid to have the hard conversations.
1:48
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm still listening. It sounds general. It sounds so far. Yes,
1:52
Speaker 2: we've heard things like this before.
1:54
Speaker 1: Yes, but I think that we assume that conflict is dysfunctional.
1:58
Speaker 1: You aren't like that. You've never been afraid to I
2:02
Speaker 1: don't want to say to fight, but you've never been
2:03
Speaker 1: afraid to bring up what bothers you. What about you?
2:08
Speaker 1: What about your upbringing? You are different than the others.
2:12
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't like the word fight. I
2:14
Speaker 2: don't like the word conflict because as soon as you
2:16
Speaker 2: say those things, you have a fight and a conflict.
2:18
Speaker 2: It's very, for me, and you know this, been dealing
2:20
Speaker 2: with me and dealing with any conflict we have. I
2:23
Speaker 2: simply say directly what the problem is, and then I
2:27
Speaker 2: ask for a particular solution. I just think it's just,
2:31
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know how we just take
2:32
Speaker 2: emotion is just a mess. It's just emotion and ego
2:36
Speaker 2: and pride and all these things when it's as simple
2:39
Speaker 2: as saying what bothers you and if the other person
2:42
Speaker 2: is mature enough to hear it, that's resolution to me.
2:46
Speaker 2: That's not conflict. That's not fighting. That's grown folks who
2:48
Speaker 2: respect and love each other. Every time we have a fight,
2:52
Speaker 2: I'm pissed at the end of it because we just
2:54
Speaker 2: wasted two days when all we had to do was
2:57
Speaker 2: say something, and give a respectful response, and we were done.
3:01
Speaker 1: Yes, that would be the goal, I think, for most folks.
3:04
Speaker 1: It's hard to get there. And I think what a
3:06
Speaker 1: lot of people, it's everyone goes back to how you
3:09
Speaker 1: were raised, this conflict aversion, avoidance, pretending everything's fine. In
3:14
Speaker 1: some people's families, that's what they were raised around, and
3:17
Speaker 1: that's their safety net, so to speak.
3:19
Speaker 2: Okay.
3:20
Speaker 1: And that is part of the problem. That is the
3:22
Speaker 1: big part of the problem, she said, is the conflict aversion.
3:26
Speaker 1: People avoid it. They don't want to deal with it. Look,
3:29
Speaker 1: I was impressed with you. Literally, this is a clear example.
3:34
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with us. But we had
3:37
Speaker 1: someone come in, a worker come into our house. And
3:40
Speaker 1: that worker came into our house and absolutely blew up
3:44
Speaker 1: our bathroom. And instead of being annoyed and resentful, and
3:48
Speaker 1: we're never going to see this person again. But you
3:50
Speaker 1: actually directly and politely and respectfully confronted the person and
3:55
Speaker 1: said that was not okay that you did that.
3:58
Speaker 2: But that's not, so what's one, as far as conflict resolution,
4:01
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to not say anything.
4:03
Speaker 1: No, you did the right thing. That's the point.
4:06
Speaker 2: But there was no, I don't know. I didn't think
4:09
Speaker 2: about that, but I don't know. I just think things are.
4:13
Speaker 2: I don't know how it developed over years. I hear this,
4:16
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to be respectful and mindful of other
4:18
Speaker 2: people who do struggle with this, but in dealing with
4:20
Speaker 2: an adult that keeps saying, well, when I was a kid,
4:25
Speaker 2: this and that. I mean, at some point, you have
4:27
Speaker 2: to do better, and you have to be better, and
4:29
Speaker 2: you're old enough and mature enough to know to change.
4:33
Speaker 2: And I guess every therapist and all these people say,
4:35
Speaker 2: you don't understand, and people go through, and okay, that's fine.
4:39
Speaker 2: But man, where does responsibility, at some point, where is
4:42
Speaker 2: the line that you cross to where, okay, I'm old
4:45
Speaker 2: enough now, I can't blame that. It's my responsibility, especially
4:50
Speaker 2: when you recognize what you're doing wrong. And you still
4:52
Speaker 2: don't do anything about it because your mama spanked you
4:55
Speaker 2: when you were four. Okay.
4:58
Speaker 1: Okay. I just, I thought, I think everyone comes from
5:02
Speaker 1: a different place. And I do think just, and I
5:05
Speaker 1: use that example because most people would never have the,
5:11
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have created a boundary. They wouldn't have felt comfortable.
5:14
Speaker 1: They wouldn't have actually confronted somebody. And instead they'd go back,
5:18
Speaker 1: they'd complain, they'd bitch, they'd remember it, they'd have negative thoughts,
5:23
Speaker 1: and they would just hold this emotional weight on something
5:27
Speaker 1: that that they refused to acknowledge or address. And I
5:29
Speaker 1: say that because it was just a completely, you know,
5:32
Speaker 1: a person you're never going to see again. And yet
5:34
Speaker 1: how you handled that was surprising to me. I bet
5:37
Speaker 1: you if ten people, nine of those people would never
5:41
Speaker 1: have said something to him.
5:44
Speaker 2: As we sit here, I'm looking at that bathroom. It's
5:47
Speaker 2: 15 feet from where I'm sitting. And, of course, you
5:50
Speaker 2: want to be polite to folks. Folks come to your
5:52
Speaker 2: home and work. They have to use the restroom. I
5:54
Speaker 2: understand that. He'd been here less than five minutes and
5:56
Speaker 2: asked to use the restroom. And I don't know what's
5:59
Speaker 2: appropriate on his end or mine. If I let somebody
6:02
Speaker 2: use the bathroom, then I should assume they can do
6:04
Speaker 2: whatever they want in there. It is wildly inconsiderate. Wildly.
6:09
Speaker 2: He came. This is a main bathroom for guests right
6:12
Speaker 2: in the front of the house and blew up the house.
6:15
Speaker 2: Blew it up. It was disgusting and it was awful.
6:19
Speaker 2: And it was disrespectful and And yes, I didn't go
6:22
Speaker 2: out back there and yell and scream or anything else.
6:23
Speaker 2: I looked him dead in the eye and said, that
6:25
Speaker 2: is wildly inconsiderate to come into our home and do
6:27
Speaker 2: what you just did in there. That simple as that.
6:29
Speaker 2: I didn't get mad in anything. Don't have to.
6:31
Speaker 1: And how did he react? Shocked.
6:34
Speaker 2: Eyes stunned. And oh my God, he knew I did.
6:36
Speaker 2: He was completely embarrassed. I wasn't trying to embarrass him.
6:38
Speaker 2: He should be embarrassed for what he just did in
6:40
Speaker 2: somebody's house. So conflict resolution and conflict and how to
6:44
Speaker 2: talk and how to speak.
6:45
Speaker 1: What?
6:46
Speaker 2: Be respectful and be honest. Okay, look out for our
6:50
Speaker 2: next episode. I mean, that's what else. And I know
6:53
Speaker 2: I sound like I, and you know I'm like this,
6:55
Speaker 2: but I sound like I am not leaving a lot
6:57
Speaker 2: of space for other people having struggles and for real issues.
7:00
Speaker 2: People have real issues that affect them in their adulthood.
7:03
Speaker 2: We know this. But Jesus Christ, man.
7:07
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you did that and I was reading
7:10
Speaker 1: this article and she's, yes, it applies to romantic relationships,
7:13
Speaker 1: but it applies to coworkers. It applies to neighbors. It
7:17
Speaker 1: applies to family members. And I have been impressed as
7:21
Speaker 1: I read all of these experts giving boundaries and guidelines
7:26
Speaker 1: and how to react to people who do things that
7:29
Speaker 1: upset you or who do things that are inappropriate. I
7:32
Speaker 1: have always been in awe of your ability to address
7:36
Speaker 1: issues head on, unemotionally, And it's not just in our relationship,
7:40
Speaker 1: but in every relationship you have. And it, I am
7:44
Speaker 1: curious who you got that from, because I will say
7:46
Speaker 1: that is a skill that most people never, ever actually
7:51
Speaker 1: acknowledge or even look to brush up on or get
7:55
Speaker 1: better at. And yet you seem to have always had it.
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Speaker 2: Uh, awareness and practice. That's all just, if you're aware
8:02
Speaker 2: of it all the time and just taking emotion out
8:05
Speaker 2: of it is difficult. I understand, but, um, I don't know.
8:09
Speaker 1: I don't know.
8:09
Speaker 2: I've been, I've been practicing it for a long time
8:12
Speaker 2: to where it's just habit. Now it's, so please, what, yes,
8:16
Speaker 2: what is this lady? And again, this is one of
8:18
Speaker 2: these episodes, folks, sometimes on the weekend, if you, hang
8:21
Speaker 2: with us. This is one where Rogues will present something
8:23
Speaker 2: to me. So I didn't read up on this. So
8:25
Speaker 2: I am learning as you all are.
8:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. And some of them I look and certain moments
8:30
Speaker 1: in our weekly life trigger, or I just see these
8:32
Speaker 1: articles and I think, wow, and I'll either apply them
8:35
Speaker 1: to us. But I do think these are universal issues.
8:38
Speaker 1: And I do think a lot of people grew up
8:41
Speaker 1: in families where There is a constant avoidance of conflict.
8:47
Speaker 1: The moment I met you, we became friends I don't
8:50
Speaker 1: know how long ago, I was impressed at your ability
8:53
Speaker 1: to take on issues directly and almost immediately. And I
8:59
Speaker 1: don't think most people have either the confidence or the skills...
9:04
Speaker 1: to do what I see you do every day. And therefore,
9:07
Speaker 1: people don't end up having conflict-resolving conversations. They don't have
9:12
Speaker 1: meaningful conversations because they just want to pretend it's all okay.
9:18
Speaker 1: And this is what she says most relationships are missing.
9:22
Speaker 1: So she says, if you are like me and not
9:25
Speaker 1: like TJ, and you struggle with that a little bit,
9:28
Speaker 1: she suggests practicing something. And you say practice. She says
9:32
Speaker 1: practice what she calls healthy heat. Can you guess what
9:36
Speaker 1: that is?
9:36
Speaker 2: Healthy heat? No, I don't know what she said.
9:38
Speaker 1: Okay, she said this is how you can ease into
9:40
Speaker 1: having more direct, more meaningful conversations, and you learn how
9:45
Speaker 1: to fight better without emotion. She said to start with
9:51
Speaker 1: things that don't matter. So start with, she said healthy
9:53
Speaker 1: heat starts with low stakes arguing. So it allows you
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Speaker 1: to disagree, to even be disgusted. by what the other
10:01
Speaker 1: person does or says, meaning like food, movies. TV shows, music.
10:06
Speaker 1: How could you possibly like that? Or just having known
10:11
Speaker 1: things that you would be different on and have those
10:14
Speaker 1: conversations in a playful, fun way.
10:15
Speaker 2: Conversations. Okay. Tell me how I was supposed to put
10:19
Speaker 2: that in practice. So if we're watching a movie and
10:23
Speaker 2: I don't like it or we disagree about what movie
10:25
Speaker 2: we like, yeah, really, what's an example?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's saying to normalize that fighting, you can normalize disagreement.
10:31
Speaker 1: You can normalize fighting. You can normalize having differences of
10:35
Speaker 1: opinion and not taking it personally, not getting emotional reaction
10:39
Speaker 1: from it. And she said you can start with things.
10:41
Speaker 1: And she's, look, again, not just romantic relationships, but even
10:44
Speaker 1: if you've got problems in the office, problems with family members,
10:47
Speaker 1: And maybe it is over specific things, but if you
10:50
Speaker 1: can learn that you can disagree and it's still going
10:52
Speaker 1: to be okay, that actually you can provide differing points
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Speaker 1: of views with one another without getting upset. There are
11:00
Speaker 1: lots of triggers out there. And so anyway, it's about
11:03
Speaker 1: normalizing fighting, about making fighting safe, about having disagreement and
11:07
Speaker 1: conflict and not feeling like the world is crashing down
11:11
Speaker 1: around you.
11:12
Speaker 2: See, I'm taking issue with the words fighting and conflict.
11:15
Speaker 2: because this is not a fight or a conflict if
11:18
Speaker 2: we disagree about a movie or dinner or music or
11:22
Speaker 2: whatever else. Once we put them into those categories, even
11:25
Speaker 2: practicing healthy heat, practice fighting, practice conflict, what I'm saying
11:31
Speaker 2: is stop it before it becomes a conflict. You know
11:34
Speaker 2: I say this all the time, baby. It's never the crime,
11:37
Speaker 2: it's the cover-up. You and I don't ever fight about
11:39
Speaker 2: what actually just happened. It's something else and the reaction
11:43
Speaker 2: to it and how ever, ever, ever. So I just
11:45
Speaker 2: don't think most things are fights. Hey, babe, you remember
11:49
Speaker 2: I asked you to do the thing. You end up
11:50
Speaker 2: not doing it. That really put me in a bad spot.
11:53
Speaker 2: And can I please just ask that you not do
11:54
Speaker 2: that again? Do we have conflict? Do we need to fight?
11:58
Speaker 2: What is the reaction to that going to be? And
12:00
Speaker 2: that's going to be key. Well, I didn't know, okay?
12:03
Speaker 2: I had this, I had this, and I had this.
12:06
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry I didn't remember to put your little
12:08
Speaker 2: luggage back in the closet. Okay, let's do it. Now
12:13
Speaker 2: we got to fight. There is no fight. There is
12:15
Speaker 2: no conflict. I respect you. You respect me. You should
12:20
Speaker 2: respect me enough to receive what I'm saying. I should
12:22
Speaker 2: respect you enough to say it in such a way
12:24
Speaker 2: that doesn't insult you. Next.
12:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are all the shoulds. But unfortunately, they aren't
12:30
Speaker 1: oftentimes what ends up happening.
12:32
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. Why do we always have an
12:34
Speaker 2: excuse for why we don't behave better? That's what I'm saying. Should. Yeah,
12:38
Speaker 2: I should. But yeah, I should. But yeah, but I got.
12:41
Speaker 1: I know.
12:41
Speaker 2: But yeah, but then I got up. But OK, I
12:45
Speaker 2: say this. At some point, you just got to be
12:48
Speaker 2: better at some point. OK, but let me listen to
12:51
Speaker 2: the good doctor and author there.
12:54
Speaker 1: Well, she says that after you. Work on and acknowledge
12:58
Speaker 1: the low stakes arguing. You then possibly can go to
13:01
Speaker 1: the high stake arguing. And look, she says, you know,
13:04
Speaker 1: it's high stakes because you feel it. You feel it physically.
13:07
Speaker 1: You maybe feel slightly faint. You get hot, you get sweaty,
13:11
Speaker 1: but your chest tightens, your heart starts racing. And she says,
13:15
Speaker 1: when that happens, That is the point in which you
13:17
Speaker 1: have to take stock and say, wow, look what's happening
13:20
Speaker 1: to me. I am physically reacting to the emotion. You've
13:25
Speaker 1: never felt that? I'm sure everybody has felt that physical
13:29
Speaker 1: reaction when you are upset and you're in a fight.
13:32
Speaker 1: Your body physically reacts, which doesn't help you when you're
13:36
Speaker 1: trying to have a meaningful conversation. So I think that's
13:40
Speaker 1: a good place to start. You're like, okay, here we are.
13:43
Speaker 1: I'm in a high-stakes argument or... potential conflict. And when
13:47
Speaker 1: I see what's happening, when I feel what's happening in
13:49
Speaker 1: my body, part of the way to take a step
13:53
Speaker 1: back is just to notice it, to notice it and
13:56
Speaker 1: to breathe. And the number one thing, do not exit,
13:59
Speaker 1: do not leave, because that is what you might have
14:02
Speaker 1: been doing in the past. That's what a conflict-averse person
14:04
Speaker 1: would do. Somebody who avoids conflict, who's into this toxic politeness,
14:10
Speaker 1: they have to leave because... They can't handle the pressure, literally.
14:18
Speaker 2: And I assume the doctor says that's bad. I keep
14:20
Speaker 2: saying a doctor. Is this doctor something? I don't know.
14:23
Speaker 2: She's not a doctor.
14:24
Speaker 1: She is a, wait, what was the word? A conflict
14:27
Speaker 1: resolution facilitator. I didn't see a doctor in front of
14:32
Speaker 1: her name. I don't want to take it away from her.
14:33
Speaker 1: She might have it. I don't want to misspeak on
14:36
Speaker 1: this one. But I thought this was interesting. So anyway,
14:39
Speaker 1: and she had this. I'm curious what you think about this.
14:42
Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about this. She said
14:44
Speaker 1: that we don't normalize arguments. We make them seem bad
14:48
Speaker 1: and negative and should be avoided at all costs. And
14:51
Speaker 1: that is part of the problem. I understand that. And
14:53
Speaker 1: so she said if her children are in the room,
14:56
Speaker 1: when she and her husband get into a fight, she
14:59
Speaker 1: looks at them and says, it's okay that we're fighting.
15:01
Speaker 1: We are arguing because we love each other. And this
15:03
Speaker 1: is an important conversation.
15:05
Speaker 2: Okay. Now that's comical. That is comical.
15:08
Speaker 1: I knew you'd have a feeling about that.
15:10
Speaker 2: Any heated couple having an emotional argument about their relationship
15:15
Speaker 2: and who knows what big themes. You're going to turn
15:17
Speaker 2: to a three-year-old. We're good. Just keep watching. This is
15:21
Speaker 2: perfectly normal.
15:23
Speaker 1: I guess if you learn how to fight in a
15:25
Speaker 1: meaningful way, and I know you don't like the word fight,
15:27
Speaker 1: but have an argument or a disagreement maybe even is
15:30
Speaker 1: how you would put it, and you could do it
15:32
Speaker 1: in a meaningful way. She's saying to not let your
15:35
Speaker 1: kids see that is actually a disservice because then it
15:38
Speaker 1: tells them that it's only okay if everyone is happy
15:43
Speaker 1: and they need to understand that conflict and disagreement is
15:47
Speaker 1: a healthy part of a loving relationship.
15:49
Speaker 2: Okay, so then they can grow up and also start
15:51
Speaker 2: fighting and whatnot with their spouse later in life and
15:55
Speaker 2: see it's perfectly normal. Then they can blame their parents
15:57
Speaker 2: for how they fight because that's what they saw their
15:59
Speaker 2: parents do. And this is the only way I know
16:01
Speaker 2: how to resolve conflict is to get emotional in this
16:02
Speaker 2: fight because that's what my parents did.
16:04
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, she's not saying to get emotional in front
16:06
Speaker 1: of them.
16:06
Speaker 2: I know, but Groves, who's... Okay. So we first got
16:10
Speaker 2: to get people to a good place of how they
16:12
Speaker 2: fight before we tell them it's okay to let your
16:14
Speaker 2: kids see that fighting. Because right now, according to this
16:17
Speaker 2: doctor or... The author, overwhelmingly, people aren't fighting the right way.
16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:22
Speaker 2: Okay. So it's hard to tell them to say it's
16:24
Speaker 2: okay to let the kids see it right now.
16:27
Speaker 1: And then she talked about the only way to move
16:31
Speaker 1: past a disagreement or a fight is to learn not
16:36
Speaker 1: only how to give a full apology, but also how
16:40
Speaker 1: to receive a full apology. And she said, we have
16:44
Speaker 1: not been taught that. how to do either very well,
16:49
Speaker 1: that ultimately half the time when we apologize or when
16:52
Speaker 1: we accept an apology, we actually make things worse.
16:55
Speaker 2: When we give and accept?
16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, that most of us, most of us, obviously there
17:02
Speaker 1: are always exceptions, but most of us are not good
17:05
Speaker 1: at giving apologies and we're also not good at receiving apologies.
17:09
Speaker 1: So she said the art of giving a full apology
17:13
Speaker 1: is to first articulate what it is you did wrong.
17:17
Speaker 1: Never say, I'm sorry you were offended. But the example
17:22
Speaker 1: would be, you'd say, I am so sorry that I
17:24
Speaker 1: spoke to you that way. And genuinely say that. I
17:27
Speaker 1: am so sorry I got defensive. I am so sorry
17:31
Speaker 1: I hurt you. Like, explain what it is you're sorry for,
17:34
Speaker 1: because that does make it more meaningful. And do not say,
17:38
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you were offended.
17:40
Speaker 2: Which, and if you all don't pay attention to that,
17:43
Speaker 2: pay close attention to a lot of public apologies that
17:46
Speaker 2: people make. And how often that's in there and how
17:48
Speaker 2: offensive that is to say that I'm not sorry for
17:51
Speaker 2: what I did. I'm just sorry that what I did
17:53
Speaker 2: caused you to get your panties in a bunch. Yeah.
17:56
Speaker 1: And people like people think if they take out the
17:59
Speaker 1: if that that makes it OK. And look, I have
18:01
Speaker 1: caught myself doing it. It is it is a terrible habit.
18:04
Speaker 1: I think the obviously the first step is acknowledgement. But
18:07
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if you were offended is absolutely blasphemous. But
18:11
Speaker 1: even saying, I'm sorry you were offended is just a
18:15
Speaker 1: cousin to that. It might be slightly better than the
18:18
Speaker 1: if you were offended. But I'm sorry you were offended
18:21
Speaker 1: is still not good enough. You have to say, I'm
18:23
Speaker 1: sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry my words were harsh.
18:28
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I got defensive and didn't listen. Those are
18:33
Speaker 1: full apologies. Would you agree? Yeah. Look, I agree.
18:40
Speaker 2: Think you know I apologize with the best of them
18:44
Speaker 2: it's full that I don't need to and you know
18:46
Speaker 2: this is something I do and I remind you all
18:48
Speaker 2: the time if you tell me I'm doing something wrong
18:51
Speaker 2: or that bothered you there is no follow-up to explain
18:55
Speaker 2: myself somebody I love just said that something I did
18:59
Speaker 2: upset her I'm listening and there's nothing else to talk
19:02
Speaker 2: about and to change it on the spot I don't
19:04
Speaker 2: know defend well if you let me if you only
19:07
Speaker 2: if you understood well what was on my mind at
19:09
Speaker 2: the time Nothing. Nothing else to say. If you love
19:12
Speaker 2: and respect that person, you got to listen and nothing
19:15
Speaker 2: else matters.
19:17
Speaker 1: Agreed. And then if you're on the receiving side, when
19:20
Speaker 1: someone does apologize to you, she says, don't just say
19:24
Speaker 1: it's okay or it's fine. That that is dismissive. That
19:28
Speaker 1: doesn't make the person who actually, I didn't think about this,
19:31
Speaker 1: but it's true. The Um, is because people don't want
19:37
Speaker 1: to admit they're wrong, but the reason why it's so
19:39
Speaker 1: hard to say thank you when someone apologizes to you,
19:44
Speaker 1: because it's actually vulnerable to admit that someone affected you.
19:46
Speaker 1: When you say thank you, that really means a lot.
19:49
Speaker 1: You're acknowledging. that you were just incredibly vulnerable in that
19:52
Speaker 1: moment and you got hurt. So they say people have
19:55
Speaker 1: a hard time even accepting about it's okay. It's fine
19:57
Speaker 1: because they don't want to act like they actually even
20:00
Speaker 1: got affected or even hurt by it. It's fine. It's okay.
20:02
Speaker 2: I say that all the time, but it's not about me.
20:05
Speaker 2: Not feeling like I'm affected. I will let you know
20:07
Speaker 2: I was affected. That's why we're fighting in the first place.
20:10
Speaker 2: Because I'll let you know I was affected. But I
20:13
Speaker 2: get what you're saying. It's another way to protect yourself
20:16
Speaker 2: by not accepting an apology.
20:17
Speaker 1: Eh. Yeah.
20:19
Speaker 2: I could see, I could see that.
20:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she just said like the, um, to remember
20:23
Speaker 1: if you were getting apologized to, and maybe even if
20:27
Speaker 1: it's not how you want them to apologize, if you
20:29
Speaker 1: just say thank you, it does go a long way.
20:33
Speaker 1: And then, um, look, she just said it's a huge
20:35
Speaker 1: problem with daily life. We, the fact that we're as
20:37
Speaker 1: human beings and as old as some of us are
20:40
Speaker 1: present party included that it's still, why is it so
20:43
Speaker 1: hard to say you're sorry in the right way? Why
20:46
Speaker 1: is it so hard to accept an apology? in the
20:49
Speaker 1: right way.
20:49
Speaker 2: So why is that?
20:51
Speaker 1: It's about not wanting to be vulnerable. It's about not
20:53
Speaker 1: wanting to be.
20:54
Speaker 2: So when do you start?
20:56
Speaker 1: You have to make a decision. And she said, you
20:58
Speaker 1: have to practice. You just have to practice. Right.
21:00
Speaker 2: At some point that people, I don't know, it's just
21:02
Speaker 2: that type of change. Yeah.
21:04
Speaker 1: Yeah.
21:05
Speaker 2: I guess it's never too late to start. Let me
21:06
Speaker 2: just go with that.
21:07
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
21:07
Speaker 2: All right.
21:08
Speaker 1: When we come back, you're going to, you're going to
21:10
Speaker 1: have thoughts. on something else she suggests that she says
21:14
Speaker 1: she has studied. This is something that folks have been
21:17
Speaker 1: doing since the beginning of time. Couples from, yes, before
21:22
Speaker 1: we were even colonized and civilized. She says we should
21:27
Speaker 1: schedule our fights. Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy
21:39
Speaker 1: and TJ. We are talking about toxic politeness, unhealthy peace,
21:44
Speaker 1: and this all comes from an article in the New
21:46
Speaker 1: York Times from the author of The Art of Fighting.
21:49
Speaker 1: This is a woman who has studied conflict, studied how
21:52
Speaker 1: couples and relationships, not just in romantic relationships, but friendships, families, coworkers, neighbors,
22:00
Speaker 1: why we can't have constructive, meaningful conversations, and how we
22:06
Speaker 1: can't actually address conflict in a healthy way. We avoid it.
22:11
Speaker 1: We get offended by it. We don't apologize for it.
22:15
Speaker 1: We don't extend forgiveness. And it just creates the mess
22:19
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in politically and personally. And I
22:23
Speaker 1: do think that reads, we're not good at it as
22:25
Speaker 1: a human race. Most of us aren't at least.
22:29
Speaker 2: Because again, because of us, because of pride, because of ego,
22:33
Speaker 2: because of what you're saying, you don't want to be
22:35
Speaker 2: vulnerable and all these things. I just, That's too bad.
22:38
Speaker 2: This is, you know, this drives me crazy how we
22:41
Speaker 2: talk to each other in all things in life and society.
22:45
Speaker 2: It sucks just seeing people in the grocery store talking
22:48
Speaker 2: to each other sometimes. I just, I don't know. This
22:51
Speaker 2: is a, yes, I get what you're saying. This helps someone,
22:53
Speaker 2: at least if you're aware of it, be mindful in
22:56
Speaker 2: how you go about it. this is useful.
23:00
Speaker 1: We're doing three separate episodes from different vantage points and
23:04
Speaker 1: different types of conflict. But the point being is, this
23:09
Speaker 1: is the thing that makes most of us miserable. We
23:12
Speaker 1: were even talking, we were watching morning television. Why is
23:16
Speaker 1: it that four or five people sitting around a table
23:19
Speaker 1: yelling at each other is entertainment? We've just become so
23:23
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like, we almost need a fight.
23:24
Speaker 2: That's a good point. That doesn't help at all. Everybody,
23:29
Speaker 2: every article is so-and-so and claps back, so-and-so and eviscerates,
23:33
Speaker 2: so-and-so and puts down. It's all that stuff.
23:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:38
Speaker 2: To where we think this is the only way to
23:40
Speaker 2: resolve conflict is to come out on top in your
23:44
Speaker 2: TikTok video response to make sure you took them down
23:47
Speaker 2: harder than they took you down. Oh, yeah. This is
23:51
Speaker 2: how we have debate. This is what ratings are about
23:55
Speaker 2: in cable news is to get two people on and
23:59
Speaker 2: go through heated conflict on TV.
24:02
Speaker 1: So we normalize dysfunction and then we find it in
24:06
Speaker 1: our own homes and we don't understand why. Now she
24:11
Speaker 1: says she has studied, she goes back to indigenous peoples
24:16
Speaker 1: and said they are, there is historic evidence, um, that
24:20
Speaker 1: these traditional and indigenous communities actually had specific times and
24:25
Speaker 1: places to regularly sort through conflict. So she even suggests for,
24:32
Speaker 1: she said oftentimes there's one person who doesn't want to
24:35
Speaker 1: fight and the other person who doesn't. who does and
24:39
Speaker 1: I say fight meaning address an issue so one person
24:42
Speaker 1: wants to talk about the other person does not and
24:44
Speaker 1: so she says that you should actually have like a
24:47
Speaker 1: day of the week save it for Tuesday and then
24:50
Speaker 1: the one person who wants to discuss it right now
24:53
Speaker 1: because they're hot and they're angry and they're pissed The
24:56
Speaker 1: other person can say, save it for Tuesday. And then
24:58
Speaker 1: they sit down on Tuesday and they have kind of
25:02
Speaker 1: an adjustment. Like, let's talk about what went wrong and
25:04
Speaker 1: let's figure this out in a setting where you don't
25:08
Speaker 1: have emotions flaring. You have had some time to reflect
25:12
Speaker 1: on maybe your role in the situation. You can actually
25:14
Speaker 1: have a meaningful conversation. I don't think it's a terrible idea.
25:17
Speaker 1: It might sound silly, but I had never considered that.
25:20
Speaker 1: And she said, look, if we go back and look
25:22
Speaker 1: at how before all of our modern society evolved, That
25:26
Speaker 1: is oftentimes what these groups did. Even they would do
25:29
Speaker 1: it in their community or with family, but they would
25:32
Speaker 1: have a day or a time or in a place
25:34
Speaker 1: where they would meet and focus on discussing conflict.
25:40
Speaker 2: Some people call that therapy, regularly scheduled therapy. Some people
25:45
Speaker 2: can call it Congress, right? We have a regularly scheduled
25:49
Speaker 2: place and there are rules to how we are going
25:51
Speaker 2: to fight and work out our differences. Yes, that all
25:56
Speaker 2: makes sense. Robes, it doesn't make sense when a spouse
26:01
Speaker 2: just pissed off another spouse and that offending spouse says,
26:05
Speaker 2: I'll talk to you about this on Thursday.
26:08
Speaker 1: Okay.
26:10
Speaker 2: Let the frying pan fly.
26:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, maybe in those moments you have to have
26:15
Speaker 1: an initial conversation. And she didn't address it from that perspective,
26:18
Speaker 1: but she said part of what we're lacking in our
26:22
Speaker 1: human connection is to have a ritual or something where
26:25
Speaker 1: we hold ourselves and each other accountable for grievances towards
26:31
Speaker 1: one another. And the worst thing you can do is
26:33
Speaker 1: never discuss it, sweep it under the rug, and let
26:36
Speaker 1: resentment prevail. build.
26:38
Speaker 2: Was that thing you just said, list of... Dang, you
26:40
Speaker 2: said something that was terrifying. I said like a list
26:43
Speaker 2: of grievances or something.
26:44
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, not that you're keeping score
26:46
Speaker 1: in that sense, but that you're... But.
26:48
Speaker 2: If we have a regular meeting every week, to which
26:50
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to bring all my problems to the table,
26:53
Speaker 2: that means I've been collecting them for seven days.
26:55
Speaker 1: I mean, yes. I mean, it could be... You could
26:57
Speaker 1: have it once a day. You could have a conversation about, hey.
27:00
Speaker 2: Um, what went wrong?
27:02
Speaker 1: What went right?
27:02
Speaker 2: Yes.
27:03
Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't give guidance about how often or when,
27:05
Speaker 1: and I think it's just, she's the expert.
27:07
Speaker 2: We need our guidance.
27:07
Speaker 1: She's just suggesting that if you've got somebody who never
27:11
Speaker 1: wants to talk about it and you've got somebody who
27:13
Speaker 1: always wants to discuss it right then there's a compromise
27:16
Speaker 1: in the middle. That was what her acknowledgement was. And
27:18
Speaker 1: then she did have this bit of information. Um, and
27:22
Speaker 1: she was directing this more towards families. She was talking,
27:24
Speaker 1: she talked a lot about political differences, religious differences, all
27:28
Speaker 1: the things that affect families. She said, if you've had
27:30
Speaker 1: the same conversation over and over and over again with
27:34
Speaker 1: this person about how they feel about something, and you know,
27:37
Speaker 1: you're not going to change them, but you still want
27:39
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship with them. She said to
27:43
Speaker 1: literally have fun together and remember all the different reasons
27:47
Speaker 1: you love one another. There may be something that is
27:49
Speaker 1: just not going to be resolved. And she was, she
27:53
Speaker 1: actually used her relationship with her father as an example
27:55
Speaker 1: of And she said, at a certain point, if I
27:57
Speaker 1: want to be in a relationship with him and I
27:59
Speaker 1: want to love him, I have to drop it. And
28:03
Speaker 1: I have to focus on what we do agree on,
28:06
Speaker 1: what we can find common ground on, and focus on that.
28:10
Speaker 1: And that was her suggestion. But it was just interesting.
28:12
Speaker 1: I had never heard anybody have these types of advice.
28:17
Speaker 1: And look, for each person, this might speak to one
28:19
Speaker 1: person and be ridiculous to another. It sounds like it's
28:21
Speaker 1: mostly ridiculous to you.
28:22
Speaker 2: But this could speak.
28:23
Speaker 1: To somebody who has... a penchant for avoidance. And I
28:29
Speaker 1: do think that is a lot of folks. I tend
28:32
Speaker 1: to be more in that category where you just want
28:34
Speaker 1: it to all be good. You don't want to bring
28:36
Speaker 1: it up. You'd rather just keep the peace, but there
28:39
Speaker 1: is a real danger in doing that. And that was
28:42
Speaker 1: her point. And a lot of it is you acknowledging
28:45
Speaker 1: that you have that tendency and to focus on trying
28:48
Speaker 1: to be more direct and And to not pretend because
28:54
Speaker 1: that is unhealthy peace. I just like that concept of
28:57
Speaker 1: recognizing unhealthy peace.
28:59
Speaker 2: No, I get that now. Danger and avoidance. Now I'm with,
29:02
Speaker 2: I'm with you a hundred percent on that. And well,
29:05
Speaker 2: sometimes that does keep the peace as well. Wouldn't call
29:08
Speaker 2: it a healthy relationship. You told me about the airport
29:10
Speaker 2: divorces thing, right? I didn't, I didn't think that's healthy,
29:13
Speaker 2: but people want to find peace in their relationship in
29:15
Speaker 2: whatever way. Knock yourself out, however you want to go
29:17
Speaker 2: about doing it. But I, She challenges and gives tips
29:20
Speaker 2: and gives, mine is just simply, ask yourself, like, why
29:27
Speaker 2: are you not being better? You're acknowledging that you do
29:32
Speaker 2: something wrong. You're acknowledging what you're bad at. You know it.
29:37
Speaker 2: It's okay to challenge yourself and nobody else to just
29:39
Speaker 2: be better. Because what I found is... I hope you
29:42
Speaker 2: hear me say this all the time. I do not
29:45
Speaker 2: have a lot of faith in people. I just don't.
29:50
Speaker 2: Let me screw my own stuff up. Don't do it
29:52
Speaker 2: for me kind of a thing. I just would love...
29:58
Speaker 2: For also people to take that challenge on is to
30:01
Speaker 2: just look at yourself and say, yeah, I know I'm
30:04
Speaker 2: doing that. So why do I continue to do it?
30:08
Speaker 2: That's it. And that's helpful. It has been helpful for me.
30:11
Speaker 1: You set this up perfectly.
30:14
Speaker 2: Oh, there's more?
30:15
Speaker 1: Well, no, because I'm teasing the next episode. Oh, sorry.
30:17
Speaker 2: Yes.
30:18
Speaker 1: The next episode you're going to see on our feed
30:21
Speaker 1: is five things to ask yourself.
30:23
Speaker 2: Ah.
30:24
Speaker 1: To prevent a conversation from turning into a fight. So
30:27
Speaker 1: stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, thank you
30:29
Speaker 1: for listening to us, everyone. I'm Amy Robach alongside TJ Holmes.
30:33
Speaker 1: We'll talk very soon.