Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 158: Noxious Stimuli

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Ep. 158: Noxious Stimuli · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: boge bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything, Yanny, I gotta hit you with a
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: marriage advice question. All right, I'm not looking for marriage twice,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: but dude was asking you know, You're like, explain your
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: your one to ten deal that I started, I that
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I appropriated. Oh I stole it. I think from Dr
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Wayne Dwyer Dire Dwyer. It's like a self help kind
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of author, your self help man. My dad is so
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: he's He's passed along a lot of books to me, Dire.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Why am I has it slipping my mind? Nobody can
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: help me out here, Wayne Dire, I know, Dwayne you
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: recently passed away. That's Dwight Dwight. Yeah, no relation anyways,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Uh it was for him. I guess you could. Um Yeah,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Wayne Dyer, I was right. It's like a life hack
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: kind of a thing. Almost can you can you start
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: over and not say that word? But that's popular these
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: days and people know what I'm saying. That's what I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: was hoping. We could do it without it, But I
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: can do it anyways. I've been doing it for I
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: don't know ten years, but it's a way to um
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: get through uh small petty arguments that maybe at the
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: time don't seem smaller petty with your spouse or loved one,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to get through him efficiently and move on, which he
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: then realized that it was probably a petty argument, and um,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: it's better just to have it behind you. But the
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: way you do it is if you find yourself in
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: this situation where you're arguing about how that's the example
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: would be how to load the dish washer, and you're
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: arguing about it, and someone realized this, man, it would
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: be a great time to execute the one to tend
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: um what would you call it, like device to get
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: through this argument to basically you just say, all right,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: how important it is to you? And at that moment
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: both people throw out a number one to ten, one
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: being I don't get ship at all, but I load
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the dishwaher like that I think about it. I really
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: don't care. Yeah, ten being like this is so important
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: to me that if we don't load the dishwasher right,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be up tonight in three o'clock in the
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: morning thinking about it. And so everybody throws a number
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: out and whoever has the higher number, you just go, Okay,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: it's obviously more important to you than it is to me.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Let's do it your way and you move on. I
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: found that it works because I've once I asked myself
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: the question realized I was arguing about twos and threes.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: And I also had to work to my advantage where
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I was adamant about something and my wife threw a
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: two or three or whatever, and I was like, well,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: you know what, for me, it's like a nine, and
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: I won and she backed out and she's never brought
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: it up again. But you have to be fair. You
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: can't always be throwing out eights and nines. Well, this
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: dude that rolled in, he shot the biggest meal deer
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: of his life with his little boy. Okay, with his
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: little boy, and he's like, yeah, I'm putting it right
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: in the living room with my other ones. And she's like, uh, okay,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: he already had some up and he's gonna add it.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: There's a whole long story about what's there not there
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: and all that, but just the gist of it is
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: he wants it there. She's like, uh um. So they
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: do the trick that they that you taught them, and
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: she throws an eleven. But then he's like, hey, so
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: and so he's throwing eleven back. So at that point
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: you're just in a regular fight. Yeah, I just know. Yeah,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: that's gloves off. Obviously, just go back to like sleeping
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: on the couch and you can combine this with your
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: hand holding trick. Yeah, we haven't talked about that on
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: the podcast. I feel like I'm just getting a lot
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of marriage advice out of out of this whole deal.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: This is Miles Nulty talking. Not this, No, this is
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Miles Nulti talking. Not that I'm aware of. But I
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: have been called Nick my entire life because yeah, dude,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you what, man, Prince of Tides the book,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: He's not in the book, he's in the movie. Of course,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: there's some good hunting effiicient stuff in Prince of Tides, man.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, the the Nicknolty thing was fine in the eighties,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: but then when you had the whole d u I
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: thing that was posted all over you know, social media
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: and the Internet, that that didn't go so well. Pull
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: a cork. I didn't know that. Yeah, he got arrested
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: in his h It was it was a big story.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: It was. It was a while ago. But Nick Nolty
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: used to be cool. He's not anymore. My kids are
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: watching a movie the air night on a movie night. Uh.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: And he was voicing a dog, voicing a like old
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: wise dog. Uh. Where were we? Oh, there's an irregular fight.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: But the trick, this is my dad's trick when when
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: one is fighting with their spouse. He likes to do it.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: And he would do this, Yeah, he likes to do
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it where you hold hands. You have to hold hands
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: and fight, which changes the fight. It does reach across
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: the table and hold hands and then be like I'm
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: hanging up that son of a bitch and deer right
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: or however you're gonna go about it. The thing we
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: were talking there day, Kal and Joanni, you were in
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: on this about whether it's okay or not okay to
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: name you're shooting irons or your bow or whatever. And
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I was saying, I don't, but I had my halib.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: It rod was called the widow Maker, and but I
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: didn't name it that, but it just came with the
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: name which I used. The man that named it dubbed
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: at the widow Maker, and this guy looked it up
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: and he's saying, you know, there's various things, are there?
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Some people refer to a particular type of vary. Hense
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Bong hit as a widow maker. He found there's a
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: disturbing sexual practice called the widow maker, which I'm not
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: privy due. But he says, what he thinks you're getting at.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I was saying, it means that you're gonna catch I
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: thought it meant you're gonna catch Maile Hallibate thereby widowing yeah,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: And I can see I can there other interpretations. I
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: know that sting. So you're you're yeah. He gets into
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: this deal. Uh, you gotta introduce yourself. We're gonna get
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: to you real big. But he said, what it means
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: is you're gonna like the rod so much that you're
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: it will effectively widow your spouse because you'll be fishing
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: so often. UM. Got an email from a guy. This
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: is interesting. He was zapped on the ankle as a kid.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: He was in Custer State Park in South Dakota, got
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: zapped on the ankle by a prairie rattlesnake. UM. Within seconds,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: he was temporarily paralyzed and the weirdest thing. He says,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: he was left with nothing but his sense of hearing
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: whoa whoa, yea almost lost his life. And there's this
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: whole other story about the the dude that helped him out,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: and in the way that he felt that the state
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: part sort of didn't didn't didn't seem to want the
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: news to get out. I don't know, but but I
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting story. UM got some We
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: got hate mail. I never I don't talk a whole
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: lot about hate man. We got an interesting hate mail
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: from a guy who was piste, but he's pissed by
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: handful things. He's pissed that we wear forty dollar underwear,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: which I don't understand because I don't know how much
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I I know, like I didn't know how much my
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: underwear cost. My underwear costs nine dollars. I'm not to
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: look mine up. I have what's called a very casile
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: which is a problem in your scroll, and it feels
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: a lot better if I wear I don't wear tidy
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: whities that wear black tidy Whitey's three for twenty seven dollars.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Chet referring to the first light Boxers yeaheal problem. So
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: he's pinning on me. If I did I would just
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: tell him because I'm gonna get some more of the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: things that he's mad about. But that's one of the
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: things he's mad about. Expensive underwear. Yeah, I think you're
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: unfortunately you're just looking at those as underwear. They functioned
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: just fine a shorts on the occasion. Um, I've liked
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: them alone many times. And uh, you know, for plane
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: travel all the way up through riding a horse and
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: mountain biking and all that stuff. Um, you know, you
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: don't stink so bad. Yeah, And you can wear the
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: same things for six seven days and and I do regularly.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: So but that's his great. Yeah, here's the weird thing
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: about this dude. He he says he's he's drinking beer
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: at c Tech and acknowledges that he's probably had too many.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: How much does an airport beer? So I don't get
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: it Like That's that's where this guy's letter becomes really funny,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: because another main gripe of his is that he doesn't
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: feel that non residents should be able to apply for
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: He's mad that we talk about and have friends who
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and that we apply for nonresident big game tax, especially
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: for like limited draw stuff. He thinks that this is
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: bad because a lot of people can't afford that stuff
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: and you apparently he feels it only a taxpayer, like
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: you should have to pay taxes in a state, two
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: hunting the state if it's for limited draw stuff. But
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: again he's talking about like the working man. But again
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: you're buying too many airport beers. I always feel them
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: with people. It's like if you honestly can't afford if
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: you're alive in America today and have a vehicle in
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the house, I could come in and analyze your budget
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: and find the money for you to do an out
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: of state tag. I have often said, like myself personally,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that I write off as unaffordable,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but if I looked at my yearly beer budget, the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: money is more than likely right there. You know, you're
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: honest could drink it for a year. I was conversing
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: with his wife about this, Well, I haven't yet, how
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: do you? I was, actually, this is yeah, I'm in
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: the midst he haven't done it yet. That's right, Uh,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: next year in can say that, But it's your intention
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: right now to take a year off of booze. It
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: is as I look to get back into it. He's
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: looking to get out of it, and his wife was
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: observing to me, um, just the observation of of not
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: having to buy all that beer, and she said, this
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: kid can do whatever. This guy like think about it
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: actually like impacts the bottom line. Yeah, well boxers and
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I P A s are not cheap. So and then
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: he was also mad. Yeah, he talks about how I
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: have a d h D and I mean narcissist. UM
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: guy wrote in something funny. He was saying that we
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: were talking about button box, like do button bucks ever
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: shed their buttons? And and a lot of people wrote
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: it in fact, like send pictures and stuff. This guy
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: tells this funny story where he him and his old
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: man killed the button buck once and it shed it's
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: buttons in their vehicle as they're handling it, so he
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: saves them. He hears us talk on the podcast about
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: whether button bucks ever shed the hardened piece, goes to
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: get his to take a photo of him, can't find him,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: asked his wife, have you seen my two little things?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: She says, I didn't what the hell those were? And
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: I threw him out. So he's bummed about that. UM
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: emails coming in lately about Janice not getting the respect
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: he deserves and not being properly appreciated. And someone wrote
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: in the best I can tell, this is a poem
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: about honest. Have you seen this? Does it say he's
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: not getting respect from no? I feel like I assume
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, he feels the honest doesn't
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: get the appreciation he deserves. In fact, the guy that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: wrote the big hate mail about me having a d
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: h D and stuffering from narcissism, he also said something
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: like you gotta have all those people around you to
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: save you from bears. So he's not again he's referring
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to he's referring to be honest. Uh Now, I hold
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: the creation of Sam McGhee and the shooting of Dan
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: McGrew as sort of like epinnacle of American poetry. Me too,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Like there's no better poem ever been written. So with
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: that as the here here's I'll read a little bit. Oh,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: it's long, more imperturbable than a stoic philosopher, more patient
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: than job as, brave as a lion, a sharp eyed
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: as a mountain eagle. Women at dorm, critters fear him
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: in action? How like an angel? Yeah? Like this in action?
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: How how oh in appreciation, In apprehension, how like a god?
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: He goes on. Another guy wrote in talking about how
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: bad I feel lucky just to be sitting next to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: But then another guy writes in about how bad you honest?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Is it math? Well, the poem didn't say anthing about maskills,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I mean math, how bad? Remember were talking about in
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Ohio if you shoot a buck, and it's like how
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Ohio rates the penalties for poaching, and that if you
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: shoot a trophy class animal, they want to make it
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a lot worse for you than if you shot a
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: forkey and they have this formula. Do you still have
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the formula on you? I'd be able to find it quickly.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: You made it. You you use it. You made a
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: mistake in a term, in a term you used in
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a man and a teacher, a calculus teacher wrote in
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: about it. You said, okay, so you take the gross score.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Here's the formula. You already have it. Yeah, I just
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: realized to have in front of me. You take the
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: gross Boone and Crockett's score of an animal, and just
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: real quick, remind people how you determine the like what
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: are the measurements when you when we talk about this
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: U there's a whole bunch of measurements, but it's basically
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the lengths of both main beams depending on how many
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: places you can get it. There's mass measurements that go
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: around the main beams, and then the length of the
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: times as well as the inside spread. It wouldn't be mass. Yeah, yeah,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: circumference measurements and in the length of all the times.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: You had this all up, and there's a couple different
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: systems for doing this, right. Is there total overlap between
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young or is there
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a difference the scoring systems. I'm pretty sure it's total.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's the same. Yeah, I think it's as
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: far as methodology of But then the sci is a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: different is My brother is a proponent of. He wants
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: to establish a system which might be in use somewhere.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: He thinks that there's only one measurement. It should only
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: be water displacement. I've heard that. I've got a friend
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: in Idaho is a really serious shed hunter, and he's
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: found the sheds off the same crazy Buck for like
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: the last five years straight, both sides. It's awesome. He's
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: just got a stack of them. But it wouldn't score
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: anything on either Sei or Boone and Crockett because it's
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: just they look like moose anglers that stick forward. It's
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: just so massive and palmated. But it's not long and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: it's not wide. But he was telling me about the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: water displacement and how it would do very well. Be like,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: that's his view. His perspective is if it's big, it's
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: just big. Dip it in the water. How much water
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: does it displace? And there you see who's the biggest
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: that if he drew a giant club, you could potentially anyhow.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Uh So you score up the deer and then you
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: take one off the score. So let's say he's a
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: real whopper, and I think they only start at one.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So in that case, you acts a hundred, so you
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: square then times that by a buck sixty five and
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you create the and that's what the finest. So we're
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: talking about this guy killed this big whopper white tail,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and the fine was twenty seven thousand dollars. You have
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a thousand bucks for the add ons. Uh you increduckly,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I didn't even catch this. You described it as exponential,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: that it grows exponentially. Apparently, Well so I used the
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: term exponential when something is being squared. It's not exponential.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: That function is quadratic quad radical. So he had his
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: uh calculus kids make a calculator for us so we
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: could like type in any number and to do it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: And he said he also made a calculator that if
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: you use Janice's method, if you use the honest method
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: and got away from a quadratic system and went to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: an exponential system, uh, a one buck would okay. He
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: he made an exponential system and and rated it so
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: that the one buck scores the same on the quadratic
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: and the exponential. And then he ran, what would happen
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: if you killed a real whopper, a two fifty inch
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: white tail, if it was exponential, Hi, you would have
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: a one point three million dollars five. With the quadratic system,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: your two white tail would get you a thirty seven
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: thousand dollar fine. How much familiarity, uh, you guys have
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: with North Dakota? Got some kN from North Dakota. It's
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: about it. You don't hunt it? No hunted, damn close.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I'm hunted looking over into it. I got Northern Pike
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: on bluegilld jigs over there one time that was pretty exciting,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: just throwing out nothing but a jig head and popping
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: it back and I was catching like hammer handle. Uh.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: There's a bill there right now in the North Dakota
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Senate State Senate to make it that I'm approached the
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: wrong way right now in North Dakota, you a landowner
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: needs to actually post his land no trespassing. Like if
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: you're in North Dakota and you see private land that
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: isn't posted, you can go on it. And I guess
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: oftentimes there will be like large properties and someone might
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: post along the roads or whatever, but you can oftentimes
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: find um landowners who don't bother to post it, and
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: it's just understood that you can hunt it or in
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: people that try to post it don't do the thorough
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: enough job, I guess, and people find, you know, find
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: place where it didn't he wasn't a posted according to law,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and then therefore you're allowed to access it. And there's
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: a bill in the North Dakota Senate to change the
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: law so that becomes an automatically posted state, meaning the
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: landowner has no obligation like tell you you can't go
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: on it. Just understood if it's private, you can't go
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: on it without permission. I can see both sides of
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that one. Uh um. Another interesting thing from a guy.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: He was hunting in Oregon and got a bad hit
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: on a bowl. He said he took a longish, longish shot.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: At what point does the shot become longish? I suppose
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: if you start question that would be very long if
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: you start questioning. I don't know if he felt those
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: longest in hindsight, or if he felt those longish when
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: he was going to pull layer back. He takes longest shot,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: uses the wrong pin, it's high, squaring the shoulder, gets
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: a couple of inches of penetration. Uh. On a whim.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: He goes on to an Oregon An Oregon hunter Facebook
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: page and describes his uh insert broadhead combo. He says, Hey,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: if anyone hunting this year we're to encounter this, let
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: me know. Ten days later, guy sends him a photo
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: telling him he was six inches high of his broad
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: head and this bowl. This guy shot this bull twelve
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: miles due north of where he hit it in a
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: different unit. Wow, it crossed? Is it Grand Rond or no? Wrong?
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: It is ron ron ron across the Grand Round River
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: twelve miles away ten days later, scared it pretty bad,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: or he's just all doing elk type stuff, or he's like,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: I am out of here. Man on the upper end
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: of that's just that giant plateau be kind of easy walking,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: but twelve miles in between the plateaus is pretty rugged. Yeah.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Up on top top by like the big the big
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: gorge there is amazing Yeah, like down uh Joseph Canyon
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and all that stuff is un unbelievable good for more.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Lots of people rolled in. We're talking about can you
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: really slip on banana peels? Lots of people rolled in
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: about slipping on banana peels, first hand accounts of people
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: slipping on banana peals. One guy feels it's such a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: problem that banana peles should be banned. He says, He's like,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: if I'll say this, like if lawn dart still are illegal,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you should not be allowed to have banana peels. That's
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: really interesting because if you get an upgrade in uh,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: your flying service of choice, typically the snack basket includes bananas,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: So I mean, but lower class people are not permitted
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: to have bananas. They might be irresponsible with the bananas
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: are the most eaten fruit in the world. We were
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: doing kids trivia last night. Back in two thousand seventeen,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Dude Massachusetts, an angler Massachusetts catches a four hundred pound
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: blue fin tuna fifteen days after the season ends. It's
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: like a ten thollar fish. Decides to keep the fish,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: but it's hard to like hide a four pound tuna.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: The words spreads around the boat, Doc, But this fella
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: is running around with a tuna. At some point he
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: gets scared and he can't get it in his truck,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: but he ties it to his truck and drags it
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: out into the woods. Okay, he gets a federal fine
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of fifteen thousand dollars for killing this tuna. Then just
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: now the in the in uh, you know, putting Alton
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the wounds. His local municipality doubles around and hits him
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: for another thousand and fines for littering and disposing of
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: waste from a vehicle. They're like, and so you didn't
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: learn your lesson, we will now find you an additional
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: one dollars for charges related to you dragging a blue
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: fin tuna out into the woods. That is very interesting.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's totally fine for I'm not criticizing I
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: think that fine should be higher considering the value of
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: those fish and that fishery and the waste that should
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: be k for a white tail. And here you have
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: like here you have like a fairly written species, like
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: a fairly depleted species. Yeah, and it wasn't if we
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we've fold around that article about that bluefin the first
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: bluefin in the season for a million bucks. Over a
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: million bucks. Yes, just made the Japanese fish markets because
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: they had the right at content anything. Yeah, and it
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: was the first absolute dude got a million for a
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: blue fin, well over a million if I remember correct. Yeah,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: and this guy like owns a like a chain of
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: sushi restaurants over there and is known to be a
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: big guy with fat wallet. I believe it was the story.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: But sure that wasn't the first one. No go for
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: over a million, No, no ship, And I knew they
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: were like extremely valuable. But I want to know blue
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: fin tuna goes for three million at first twenty nineteen
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: sale at Tokyo market, how many pounds with the fish?
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Because I know that they'll go like I was talking
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to a guy that sold some blue fins over the
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: year and over the years, and you take it down right,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: away and they pull a plug out of that thing,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and I don't know what they do, but they're very
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: interested in fat and I'm sure a host of other
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: color fat and all that. And you either got gold
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: or you don't have gold. Yeah, and he says it's
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: hard to tell, like he couldn't tell. What are they?
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Damn sure? No. I was just watching that documentary Guo
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Dreams of Sushi. Very good. But oh man, it was
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: amazing to see them go to the fish market and
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: the guy's like, you know, to an aside, he's like,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I wish there was some actual tuna here, and there's
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: like a warehouse full of these big, giant, beautiful looking
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: tuna and there's just it was all garbage to him. Yeah,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and it's amazing. Cut him down to where they can
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: like stack them like cordwould, right, um, the cores Andani
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: used that learned that the cores. Yeah, this guy was
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: this blue fin tune that they found out in the
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: woods was missing. They had its head cut where to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: leave the collar on. Yeah, the core. I mean when
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you just I'm dying to know what was going through
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: the psychological burden on this man from where he's like Nope,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: screw it, I'm hauling into the woods. I'm keeping it
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: on the boat. I'm not turning it back or was
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it like bleeding from the gills And he was just like, man,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: why would I throw this thing back to the sharks? Well,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: that's the difference between dumping it out. That's like you
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: call in fish and game or you just caught the
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: line once you realize what you got. Yeah, but I
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: just wonder if there's something that made him be like, Okay,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: screw kick the doors open and haul this thing on.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I'm keeping it because then and it's not his boat apparently,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: because I'm sure they would have dinged his It could
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: have taken his damn boat. I don't know what. I
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: don't know if they did that to poach those bear cubs. Man,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: they got their boat taken away, and I think the
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: truck they used to pull the boat. Yes, is that
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: state by state though, whether or not they can confiscate
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: gear for poaching, I don't know. I don't I don't
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: mean don't know, but yeah, that guy had to have
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: just been a mess. Then, like all that compounds by
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: the time you get back to the dock and you're like, oh, man,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I'll just let that damn fish go. Yeah, and then
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: to waste it. Yeah. Oh that's sacrilegious. Man, that's weird.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: That's kind of the weird part of them. Who you know,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: you have the ones had to hang out with the
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: guy like is at some point he even abandoned the
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: idea that he's just gonna stake it out and put
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: it in a bunch of freezers. Yeah, and that's why
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, make that jack that fine up even further.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're if you're wrestling, he's like, he's
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: clearly wrestling with this idea and yet chooses to do
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: a series of worse and worse actions. It's like, you
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: had a lot of opportunities to right this wrong. I
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: get it. But we used to break all kinds of
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: rules and we were little. Yeah, I don't know if
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: he's little. I was gonna say, I doubt this is
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: a kid we're talking about. I don't think this is
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: like a sixteen year old yesterday fishing when the sheriff
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: pulled up. All right, we're fishing. The county sheriff pulls up,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: and I'm able to Now now I'll being where I'm
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: at now in life. I'm able to walk up to
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the window and lean on the window and be like,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: how do you boys? In the old days, if we
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: weren't doing something wrong at the moment, we were nervous
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: about what we had just been doing wrong last week,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: pitchfork and salmon out from behind some beaver dam or oh,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: A little part of me was still like what, I like,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: where's my lights? Where's what am I do? I have
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: barbs on my hooks, so that doesn't matter. Here to
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: be drinking. Yeah, yeah, when you like you see a
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: copy turn the radio down. Yeah, I'm like old enough
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: now where I'm just like, what's up? Guy? Well, they
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: came up and I haven't done I haven't done anything
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: wrong even lately. The thing that threw me off was like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: we're gonna get out and talk to you boy. Yeah,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: off too. I'm like, you know what, get out and
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: talk to me because I haven't done anything bad in
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah, I'm pretty I haven't found any
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: salmon in the damp drainage ditch, saying shot up with
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: a shotgun. Hypothetically. I grabbed my license yesterday morning in
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: preparation for going out on the ice and actually opened
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: it up, double checked the expiration date. Yeah, I got it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: We're we're coming up on the expiration here. Because when
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the first year I lived in Montana, I had a
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: game board and I was fishing downtown Missoula at the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Hollywood Holding right in front of double Tree. I saw
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: a game Ward and watching me with binoculars. Hollywood hole. Yeah,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: because everybody's looking at you game Ward and watching me.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: We been from with binoculars, like peeking around the building.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: And I was like, what the what's what's he doing?
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, you know, I left my
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: fishing bag in the truck. That's where my license is.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I reeled up when I saw him do that, walked
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: right up to him and said, hey, saw you looking
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: at me? Figure you want to check my license? Uh,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: it's it's in my bag in the car. I needed
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to grab that bag because I needed to change flies. Anyway.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: He's like, oh, great, no problem, I walk walk with you,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: walks over there with me. I grabbed my bag, give
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: him the license. We're just shooting the ship, being real
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: friendly and everything, and he hands me the license back
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and as I reached for it, he pulls it back
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: and goes, oh, wait, this is this expired last week
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: and writes me a hundred and thirty dollar ticket my
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: first year, first year living in Montana. And I was like,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, there's a there's a
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: there's a fly shop two blocks from here. I will
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: literally dog there and renew my license. He's like, sorry,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: flexibility here, Yeah, because he was giving you some flexibility
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: for not having your license on you. Yeah, he'd already
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: like yeah, but but but I approached him too, so
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: I felt I felt like, I don't know. I was
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: also yeah, absolutely he was in the right there and yeah,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I can see it both ways, man, Yeah, but I was,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I was just I was just maybe he really annoyed
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: by it. I wouldn't play it in court. Did you win?
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: They reduced it to the minimum fine, which was sixty
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: do that was worth your time? But to circle back
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: to the guy with the tuna, I just have to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: I hope he at least took the belly meat out
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: of that thing, because that that bluefin belly meat is
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: like the most just like the buffalo. I could find
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: out because there's a picture of them. They had to
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: call in a record. They called in a record lifted
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: up by the tail. The picture of it sitting on
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: had to call it Bob's towing to come down and
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: get that tuned carcass. They brought it to a garden.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: They brought it to a local farm to fertilize it.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Old school did day he did? They say, if he
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: knew that the quota was filled when he when he
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: put it in the boat. I don't know. I don't know.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember reading that. I think you
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: want to bring up something, man, like what was I
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: going to bring up? We're talking about. I don't feel
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: nervous about by law enforcement people anymore. Which is good.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: It's in the good shotgunning salmon bad kind and well
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: when they make a bunch of wrong turns, here's the
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: thing is, if it makes so many wrong turns that
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: they're in some farmers drainage ditch, we would take liberties
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: with them, because you're like, well, you're gonna like run
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: into another salmon and spawn on the gravel at this point,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: like you're up Bob weirs and drainage, you know, like
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: you've you know, I don't know if the other salmon
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: want you in this? In the throwing in with him?
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Here comment did the man know that the quota was filled.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like you lose any opportunity for argument when
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: you're stashing ship in the woods, no doubt by the time.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm just wondering what you know again his Yeah,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: I mean too, I'm dying. Yeah, federal. Did I say federal? Federal? Yeah?
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, for all we know, we could be really
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: churching this up. And the guys like, listen, boys, I
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: had a lot of Budweiser's those couple of days. You
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: wish I could think of what I was gonna talk about.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: It was like a tied to this deal, tied to
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: this deal, and I was going to talk about it,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: see the a D h D deal. That like narcissistic
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: a d D deal. Now, if I forgot something that
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: was gonna talk about how great I was, that would
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: back that dude up. I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be like, oh,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I was gonna say, is I've, you know,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: very strapping? Um uh, one last thing I want to
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: bring up, and we're gonna talk about what we're here
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to talk about. We got couple of three things. Um.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: This guy is talking about how he used to hunt
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: scrolls and his grandpa and his grandpa they hunt scrolls
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: with dogs, and when it in his grandpa kept a
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: kit with him which was a fire making kit and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: a coffee can, a tin coffee can. So when the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: squirrel would hole up in a hollow tree, Grandpa would
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: get a fire burned in his coffee can and then
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: set the coffee can in there to thereby smoke the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: squirrel out. And if I remember right, like, I feel
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: like when we were little kids, we would you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: those smoke bombs, you get it? Fourth of July. I
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: feel like we do something similar with that, like sticks
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: in my head. But you're saying one time he's out
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: there with grandpa and Grandpa forgets his can, gets a fire,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: ripping no can and uh starts himself with fortrest fire. Yeez,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: did you get that squirst fire? Heard of it today?
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I hunted the web today with old bench made and
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: chose the wrong answer when I was gonna just kick
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: out my coals or should I use the rest of
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: my water to douse my fire. It's like a choice
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I had to make and benchmates hunt the web realistic game,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and Uh, I decided just to shuffle the coal out
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: because I was hunting in the Pacific Northwest and say,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: nothing can fire here, And sure enough I walk away
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and next thing I know, game over, forest fire giant.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: So I gotta go to clarify. He didn't Okay, he
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: didn't start a forest fire. He burnt the whole damn
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: tree down. But then the fire did spread, okay, on
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the lines of Pacific Northwest and fires and bad decision making.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Our good buddy Jeff Lander all uh primitive outfitting his
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: buddies that are floating floating a moose river um for
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: years and years and years. One of them dies, they
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: bury his ashes underneath this prominent tree on the bank
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: of the river. Um. One of these years, they'd invite
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Jeff to come down with them um and they they
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: this tree is prominent because they've called in a bunch
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: of moose in this same spot and it's nice and
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: you know, breaks all that BC drizzle and uh, they're
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: kind of having a peaceful moment. They're and they're they're
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: calling moose and Jeff has everybody's sandwiches and tinfoil and
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: he starts a little fire there at the base of
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: the tree. Swiches heat the sandwiches, they eat their lunch,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: move on down the river. Somebody makes the comment of like, oh,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: you're sure that fires out. The next day, Jeff has
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: burned down the sacred tree, so to speak, with the
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: ashes with the ashes under it, because he decided to
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: shuffle the coals instead of because he's he's in a
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: really wet place and it's just nothing matters, doesn't doesn't
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: burn by that. Yeah, that's pretty sad. Well, it kind
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: of gives that sacred spot even better. Story does one more?
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: One more quickie? Now, one more quickie? No, um seth
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: if you said anything yet? Just about the the cops
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: getting another vehicle? Oh yeah, uh did you tell people
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: about how about your ill fated one hunt of a lifetime? Oh? Um?
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Drew a bison tag in Montana this year for Gardner
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and talk about that. How did you feel about three
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: areas and three areas West Yellowstone there's Gardener and then
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: there's the absorka back country unit. It's like West Entrance,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: North Entrance and then the back country unit. And um,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: were you excited to draw that? Tex? Super excited. I
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: was excited. Everyone was excited. Gave them all kinds federal bullets.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Was gonna um the first year I put in for
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: it and drew it. UM had big plans. We talk
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: about what needs to happen. So the bison spend most
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: of their life in Yellowstone part and in the wintertime,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: when the weather gets real nasty, they migrate out of
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: the park to find better grass. Um. You know, there's
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: they migrate out because there's some some animals stay in
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the park. This is from what I gather from talking
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: with game wardens and stuff. They stay in the park.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Some animals stay in the park. Um, but there's too
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: much pressure for you know, the park to handle that
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: many bikes and over the winter, so they move back.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And they're they're predisposed of roman and UM. So they
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: usually push out of the park. You know, the season
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: closes February. By that time, they're usually you know, having
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: all sorts of trouble with them and gardener and um
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: getting into people's backyards and destroying stuff. Well, this year,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: the weather or it was pretty mild, not much snow
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: down there, and they didn't decided to leave the park. Yeah,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: we're up in that neck of the woods yesterday and
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: it was like no snow. Yeah, so my bison tag
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: that I don't know if I say it's once in
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: a lifetime tag because you definitely draw it again. Yeah,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: but that means different things. There's like once in a lifetime,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: like the expression yeah, and then there are once in
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: a life once. So once in a lifetime Montana for
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: this tag would be like an expression right, meaning like
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: it's not it's not like an Idaho moose tag. Right,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: that's once literally in a lifetime. If you are a
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: successful yes, really yeah that before that's right, draw the tag.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Got tags your opportunity. If you fill the tag, that
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: is your one star. What's the weight period? Apologies to
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the guy who thinks you should only be able to
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: hunt in the state where you live, Like you can't,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: let go to your own les and then go out
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: do you a little hunt with your uncle? That's like
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: no way, Um how many years if you don't, I
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: want to say, it's seven so long? Wait so they
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: never Yeah. When I talked to a game warden, no
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: state now he used the term state hunters because there
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: are tribal hunters, like a lot of the tribes exercise
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: treaty rights or exercise right no, come and shoot some.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I went down there one time, uh and watched the
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: nez purse shoot five of them. I think our buddy
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: ed Garcia, I think it was just last fall, last winter,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: he was down there. He's got a cabin somewhere down there,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: was driving through and saw a bunch of hunters getting
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: after it, and there was so many and they were
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: having like problems like getting all the meat out and everything,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: and there's gut piles everywhere. And he went down there
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: and he harvested ribs and hearts and livers, all kinds
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: of stuff so much he's like, oh, you want a heart,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: buffalo heart on the way way home and he stopped
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: buying dropping. I've heard of people doing that down there
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: in the gut piles. Well, there's none of that this year. Yeah,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: not one tag holder, not one state tagle. I guess
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: a handful of tribal hunters got some early. Not one
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: state tag holder. Yeah, it's just not the year. He
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: said numbers were low in the park. Yeah, because they'll fluctuate,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: you know, like three thousand seven numbers were low in
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: the park, which means the pressure for grazing isn't there.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: So did you gotta wait seven years now to try again?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure I used to put
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: in for it, then I quit putting in for it
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: just because it just gets a little crazy. But I
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: think I'm gonna start again. I'm not gonna let that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: scare me off. No, I'm gonna put in for it again.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: But the snow dance wasn't the year for it. Nonresident
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: where to snag that tag out for underneath? You don't
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: tell that guy and that don't tell the guy who's
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: all drunk at the sea tag bar on the Wyoming's
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Like I blew all my money on nine dollar beers, bro,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I can't do that hunt Wyoming side that opportunity to
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: pursue that buffalo for a bull. I think it is
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: like over three grand now, Yeah, they tacked their prices
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: up last year. Oh the tag if you draw the
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: tag is three grand. Yeah. As a non resident, now
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: you're resident price. Uh. There's typically a pretty vast discrepancy
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: between your resident and nonresident prices. When anybody like to
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: venture a guess as to why, because they don't pay
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: taxes in the state. Because states raise a held lot
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: of money. Uh, and they fund a large portion of
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: their fishing game operations through the sale of non resident
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: grossly inflated price to tags maybe, and all those resident folks,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: of which all of a sort of beneficiary of our
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: tag bryces seldom get raised. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a subsidy. Yeah,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: you hunt, you hunt deer for thirty bucks, and another
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: guy hunts deer for six hundred bucks, and therein you
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: can fund a lot of wildlife work. Yes, yeah, I
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: do feel for this guy, though in the fact that
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I have definitely been the guy doing a lot of
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: bitching about all the nonresident folks out of state license
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: plates and stuff. And oh yeah, I feel it. I
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: feel it. I would, I would, you know what. Sure,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Montana f w P raised something on the order of
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: twenty one million dollars last year on nonresident license fees.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: It was like the second highest in the country, I believe.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: You know what happens in the trapping world. There's like
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: a reciprocity thing in the trapping world where, for instance, um,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: if a lot of states because because fur bears are
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: more like a commodity, management like a commodity, a lot
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: of states will prohibit nonresident fur trappers from trapping in
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: their state. And there's a reciprocity system where, um, if
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: you live in a no go state. If you live
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: in a if you're if you're like a trapper from
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: a state where your state doesn't allow non residents to
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: trap beaver, other states will reciprocate and not allow you. So,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: for instance, in Montana, you cannot trap fur bears. No,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: a nonresident cannot trap fur bears in Montana. So a
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Montana person is not allowed to go over into Wyoming, Idaho,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: wherever and trap someone from another state. Yeah, your state
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: won't let our people come. We're not gonna let your
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: people come. You get into a little tip for tat.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: A guy wrote in like how come how come people
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: don't talk like why is Washington not a popular hunting
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: state for non residents? Like one of the things that
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: we start. Yeah, there's a bunch of reasons. Um, they're
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: extremely conservative of tag allocation. Uh, it's it's expensive just
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: to apply and a turn of points in Washington and
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: now it's three thirty dollars just for the application fee
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: for each one. So for like my moose coach sheep,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I guys just don't do anymore because be a thousand
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: bucks just down the drain, nonrefundable, nonrefundable. So some ste
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: hundred and thirty dollar application fee. Some states will really
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: stick it to you, like to even get in is
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: gonna cost you. Alaska's smart, and I should say you're smart.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Their strategy is to sucker you in the applications. Not bad.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: We got to buy a base license and you get
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: paid his fees and then you draw and you get
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: all excited and a zap you hard on the tag.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: But then you get people who draw and can't afford
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: the tag, and it probably screws you up on allocations
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: a little bit. So some states want to be like
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: is he good for it or not? Sending all your money,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: demonstrate that you're good for it, so that when we
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: give you the thing, we get our money and it
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't like you can wait and then later decide to
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: buy it or not buy it, and then we have
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: a better sense of who's like ready to roll. Yeah, Wyoming. Um,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: you know mountain goat is a species and the bison
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: as well, where you can't accrue points for those, um,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: But that's all the cash up front, just like if
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: you were to put in for any of the other
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: species and not and go for like the thin chance
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: that you might get drawn, um without the points you
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: throw all your all your cash up front. But yeah,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: that's two thousand bucks for a goat. If you're putting
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: in for a by his sending a bowl bison too,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: you're at like five grand in Wyoming. Yeah, what did
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: your take cost you? Bucks? It's one thousand, two undred
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: fifty for non rays. Once you a good pivot I do,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: speaking Wyoming, you like that? That's what we learned to
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: call it. We just call it a segue of it.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Someone's saying it's like a pivot Larry Keene, Larry Keene
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: pivots uh Larry Bird for that matter. Yeah, yeah, nice? Um,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: real quick, real quick issue too, real quick? Is you
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: know you guys are all for me? With our friend
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Ben long Very when we talked about what we're gonna
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: talk about, when I touched on at one time touched
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: on what we're gonna talk about, and he emailed me
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: warning me not to talk about So I don't want
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: to talk about it because it scared me off. So
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Sam Londran is gonna talk about it because I was
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: too intimidated. I was too intimidated to talk about it
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: because this is like this is like the forbidden subject.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Well that's not very narcissistic of you. Oh, if what
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: would I do? What would have? It will be a
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: better and more narciss You know who narcissist was, Yeah, Narcissah.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: You know what his story was. He found that little
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: looking pond, right, and what happened to him? Would just
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: stare at his reflection in a pond, But something bad
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: happened to him eventually, right, and he drowned in the
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: pond or something like that. He died by by by
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: being so obsessed with his own reflection that was his downfall.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Talk about how Narcissis died. What's his name, Narcissus, Narcissus?
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about how he died, how he passed away?
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Resting r I p rip. Yeah, he found a little
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: pond with a clear surface, and he liked to look
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: at his reflection and to be clear, this is Greek mythology. Yeah,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: because he's sitting there looking so much, and he didn't
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: want to disturb that perfect surface. He got thirsty. Oh,
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't disturb his didn't want to disturb that perfect reflection.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: It's a painful death, especially the painting. He looks like
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: he's got his face about six inches away from the water.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: That's a good story. And we're talking about not long
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: ago about the Greeks. Is there's a um uh, there's
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: this principle it's um xenia z e n i A.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: I think has to do with the guest host bond.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Like it's like somehow related to the relationship of a
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: flower and its pollinator. I've heard of this. I was
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: gonna name one of my daughters. Only had one named
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: after my mother, but if I had more, I wanted
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: to name one zena um. But yeah, it has to
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: do with the guest host bond, like meaning like it's
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you host someone. Like let's say, uh, let's say my
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: father hosted your father in his home, you would owe
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: me still, like it's that strong the guest host bond
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: is that strong? What culture does that drive from? I
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: learned it when we were reading the Ilian in the Odyssey,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: and that because it was Troy you had to do
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: with like you remember how the dude that you remember
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: how Killes kills Hector. Achilles kills Hector and drags his
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: body all over to damn place and Hector's dad pri
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Um maybe remember Hector's dad. Hector's dad comes to beg
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Achilles let me have my boy's body back and stopped
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: disgracing his body. And it's like all these other things
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: that went on with how he guilted him into it,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: but part of it had to do with with achilles father.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Um was once the guest of like pri ums father,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: and so he was somehow through this. Some some people
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: like there's an explanation that because of that, he's like, Okay,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I'll give you your boy's body back, and I'll stop
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: dragging it behind my chariot and making a total mess
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: out of it. Zena uh whelming in the in the
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: thing that one dacent speak about. It's there's a Supreme
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Court case there. I want to explain to people, the
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: damn Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Court case. Well, now
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: you got me all nervous about about opening my mouth
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: about it, and you know which I've definitely felt throughout
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the reporting on this. Do you want to know how
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: he You want to know the metaphor he used. I
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: used it the other night. He said it's a deep
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: cold river and you will get in over your waiters. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: it certainly felt that way. But it's also been a
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: it's been a fascinating experience diving deep into this. But
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about is the Supreme Court case horrariv. E. Wyoming,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: which was heard by the United States Supreme Court on
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: January eight. And they haven't decided yet. No, they haven't
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: decided yet. Most folks anticipate a ruling coming out this
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: summer or this fall. But you don't really know what
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. This isn't funny how it takes along. Yeah,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: it takes up a lot of research issues, I'm guessing. Yeah.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: And the alleged crime here happened, uh five years ago?
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Lay it out? Laid out all right? What happened? Sam's
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: now getting he's up to his n You ordered some
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: hate mail to me yesterday about this, So now I'm
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: all nervous because Sam, right, Sam wrights. Well, let's clarify.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Sam writes an article about this, which can be found
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: at the mediator dot com. What's the article called. It's
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: called her Air of Yoming inside the elk hunting case
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. Uh. And he's already gotten a
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: hate mail, ye yep. But you know, I mean, it's
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: more people airing their biases towards us um than than
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: hate per se. Yeah, this was like, to be fair
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: to the one I'm talking about, it wasn't hate mail.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: It was like being like, hey, man, here's some stuff
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: that you might not know. I learned. I learned a
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: couple of things I shouldn't. That was a bad you
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: know what? Me saying that it was a shitty thing
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: to say because it was not hate mail. It was
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: like being like, hey, I think you missed. You're off
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: the mark. He was a total dick about it, but
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: he also he was, he was, he was, He wasn't. No.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: He started by saying he was sorely disappointed, which is
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: my mom, Like, well, I'm not I'm not mad, I'm
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: just disappointed. It's amazing that people something so are really
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: disappointed really easily. We got a piece of hate mail
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: one time because because just out to half, we use
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: the term like to instead of using something to be
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: like you're running it, you're like running whatever tripod and
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: a guy took the time to write about how bad
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: that is, so that people are like ready to be
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: not happy. Yeah, they're they're, they're, they're they're they're trying
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: to find any small flaw within it. And you know,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: I worked on this for three weeks, and I'm sure
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: there are are elements missing, but I you know, obviously,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: my my goal as a journalist here was to put
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: forward the most complete, inaccurate version I could, And I
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: tried to write something that would walk the line of
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: like explaining this without you know, pissing off people based
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: on their preconceived notions of it. So I tried to
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: play fair. It's it's it's highly racially charged. So let's
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: let's back up a little bit and talk about what happened.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: So there's this guy, Cleaven Herrera, who used to be
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: a game warden for the Crow Tribe of southeastern Montana
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: UM and with two fronts, with a couple of friends, Uh,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: they followed a herd of elk off of the Crow
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: reservation across the state line into Wyoming the Big Horn
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: National Forest, where they killed three elk that they packed out. Uh.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: The game warden who ultimately found who ultimately tracked down
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: this case and um brought them to to justice, if
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: you will, found a fourth bowl that was untouched. But
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: they all claimed that that was that must have been
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: from something else, or that he's lying or something like that. UM,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: and how how did the Is it worth getting into
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: how the warden tracked down. I think it is worth
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: getting into, uh because I found that to be I
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: found that to be a fascinating element of this um.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: So this this game, this warden who testified before the
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: before the court in Wyoming, UM, and I read through
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: all of that. So he was finding a lot of
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: poaching cases in this area. He referenced a friend of
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: his who's a shed hunter spending a bunch of time
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: up there, and this guy alone, who's not law enforcement,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: reported twelve elk poaching cases in this area that year. Partly,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Buscher like like, there's one whereas a big bull um
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: with missing just its head and its backstraps. Um, And yeah,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: I've got a I've got a quote, um it sounds
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: like good hunt zone. Yeah yeah, And he's like, yeah,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: he's getting on. Then this warden said, I was getting
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: pretty desperate. I mean, you know, the public and trust
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: of game warden to enforce the game laws. The way
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: the vehicles were coming going, it was obvious to me
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: there was a possibility it was members of the Crow
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: tribe who response from some of this um. But the
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: way he actually the way he actually got to these
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: particular guys, and it sounds like they're you know, there's
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: probably different groups of people in the Crow tribe is
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: large with a large reservation. But the way you got
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: to these particular people, and Herrera in particular, was Herrera
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: sent an email to Wyoming Fishing Game asking to discuss
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: poaching incidents in this very area, and that was forwarded
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: onto this game warden, Dustin Sharma, who then reached back
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: out to Herrera and said, heck, yeah, I love to
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: talk about that. We're having We're getting her asses kicked
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: out there, basically, So they met up UH on a
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: back road near the state line in this area and
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: and talked about what what their two departments could do
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: to collaborate UH and to try to say all this problem.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: But he walked away with kind of a fishy feeling
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: about that meeting. So that was he, he Herrera, who
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: whose name carries the Supreme Court case. Yes, he reached out.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize this even like alright, I realized, I
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: didn't realize the implication of it. Yeah, he initiated contact,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: he did. I could I could pull up that email
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: if you if you wanted to see it and even
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: reading it and talking with you about I missed that fact. Yeah,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: he sent that email. I knew there's a conversation, but
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that's how it was initiated. Yeah,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: and he voluntarily went to meet up with Dustin Sharma
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: at the state line. They went up and looked at
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: the carcass of a spike bowl that had been poached
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: in that area, but Shorma walked away feeling uncomfortable with
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: the meeting. Um. Here's here's another quote from his testimony.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: He was interested in knowing who I suspected was responsible
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: for these poaching incidents. He was curious as to the
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: capabilities of our forensic laboratory and Laramie. On the way home,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I was kind of, don't know, maybe excited that I'd
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: be able to solve some of these cases. But by
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: the same token, it bothered me some of the conversations
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: that we had. I started thinking like I was maybe
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: being taken advantage of I guess. Um. So he got
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: home and googled Claven Herrera and found his Facebook, but
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: also found his postings on a brag board website called
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: monster mule E's dot com is it fair to call
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: that a bragboard. That's what a lot of other folks
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: have called it. But I, yeah, you know, I haven't
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: really just dude swapping info man whatever. We no, no, no,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: that's part within those forms. A lot of times they'll
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: be sections where you swap info. But then there's also
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: like a thread or an arizone where all it is
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: It's like, I wasn't trying to preference. That's just kind
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: of shorthand yeah, no, no, I got you know what
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: I mean. But yeah, I just would hate to take
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: like a thing like that where people are you know,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: sharing like legitimate infolture, like to look it's like like
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: to show pictures of I don't know, were we all
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: like to do that? And I guess Instagram has become
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: a bragboard, brag board or forum website. But uh found
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: a post there that Herrera had made called Goodyear on
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: the Crow Reservation, and there was photos of these three
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: elk in question, also a pronghorn and a mule deer
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: that other folks he knew had killed. Um but Sharma
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: saw looked closely at the background of the photos and
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: felt like they looked like they were in Wyoming. He
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: felt like he recognized the topography, the vegetation. UM. Obviously
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: he knows this area very well UH and talked about
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: that at length in his testimony about how familiar he
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: is with the landscape. UM. He said, just based on
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: the limited topography and vegetation I could see from the photographs,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: I kind of had a hunch where it was at.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: But I wanted to confer with some people who knew
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: the area a lot better than I did. So we
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: talked to some folks. He talked to that guy who
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: reported all the all the poaching incidents UM. And then
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: this is many months later after the snow had cleared
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: because they weren't able to get up into that into
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: that area in May. So this UH, the that shooting
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: and the conversation between Sharma and Herrara happened in January
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: and May Uh Shurma went in there with a wildlife
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: investigator and print outs of these photos and they basically
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: walked to the kill sites and found all the carcasses.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: He talked a lot about UM finding like the frozen
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: ball of of like cud if you will, UM that
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: apparently doesn't doesn't get taken by by predators when they're
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: when they scavenge interrupt you real quick. Go ahead, talk
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: about that seth with your special buffalo tag that you
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: didn't fill. Um. So this is fascinating and they send
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: you all this information when draws tagging, one of the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: rules that they want you to follow is if you
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: kill one, you have to cut open the stomach. You
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: cut open the stomach and spread the contents out, because
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: think about it, when mug has been hunting in the area.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Later other people go, you have this big bloated stomach,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, grizzlies and self eventually eat it. But then
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: you got like that. You know, it just winds up.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: So they want you to cut it because when you
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: cut it and emptied out, it's like a really small thing.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's aesthetics. There's no other explanation. Yeah,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be aesthetics because everything else is gonna mop
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: up all the soft tissue, ravens, whatever gets into it quick. Yeah,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I mean a predator or a scavenger rather is gonna
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: come tear that stomach. Oh bears, It just leaves it
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: looking like someone dumped out a bag of long clipping.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But I mean there's no other explanation besides,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: like just the way it looks, because there is a
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: lot of non hunting recreator overlap, and that's like the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: size of a wheelbar. Yeah, that stomach is like you
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: couldn't even fit it in most wheelbear. That's also a
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: sensitive topic around there, shooting buffalo, and there are a
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: lot of folks who are up in arms about that.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: And the whole organization built around a whole organization, so
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: I can kind of understand why they want to worry
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: about the optics of that. Ye, all right, go on.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: They did some cut analysis. They but they were able
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: to take photos that matched the photo print outs they
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: had brought with them, um by identifying specific like unique
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: knots on trees and burn marks and branch configurations and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: and and took GPS way points at the same time
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: finding all these all these kill sites were um they said,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: within the space of about a football field, and they
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: were all a mile away from the Montana border. Um
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: so he and they they so they found those three
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: butchered elk um, which in Herrera's defense, sounds like they
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: were well, they were well taken care of. They'd taken
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: all the meat. But they did find a fourth bowl
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: that had been untouched and so yes, but it's main
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: so that so it's it's it's unclear uh, whether that
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: was from Herrera or his group or somebody else, or
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: if it died of natural causes. They couldn't tell what
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: that bold died from. I don't remember exactly. Um. There,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of chatter about this. I think
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: it's something we should discuss, like ch That's why I'm
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: letting you say, because you've looked into it more. I've
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: heard a lot of chatter and I heard some like
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: surprising things that that I don't know if they're true
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, And you know, I've had very little
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: conversation with Claven Herrera, but I have tried to get
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: in touch with him several times. And I asked him
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: specifically about that. Um. That was the first thing I
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: asked him, in fact, because it's a you know, it's
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: a big accusation to level at a hunter and um.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: But I also figured that was something that would you know,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: maybe get him to respond to me instead of a
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: softball question. Uh. And he told me, he, um, he
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: wouldn't even dignify it with a response. That's how like
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: you know, he felt very highly insulted by the accusation. UM.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: But anyway, Uh, that's what the game warden from Wyoming
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: said they found. UM. So they put together this evidence UM,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: the GPS way points, the photographic UM matches, and he
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: confronted Herrera on the cro reservation UM in September and
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: cited him for two misdemeanors, obviously the hunting out of
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: season without a license, but also being accessory to other
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: people doing so. Uh. For the two folks they a UM,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: they possessed or they seized the heads of the elk.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: All three elk had already been eaten by that point. Um.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: And Uh, those three folks went to court. Uh they
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: were pressured very hard by the State of Wyoming Uh
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: to plead guilty, to plead out. The state of Wyoming
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: was seeking some thirty thousand dollars in fines and was gonna,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: you know, come after them really hard with like, you know,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: removal of hunting privileges and certain things. The two other
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: guys UM who's names are escaping me right now, Uh
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: did plead guilty UM for a lighter fine, yes, Uh,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: And somewhere in the neighborhood of eight thousand UM and
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: probation and not hunting in Wyoming for three years UM.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of this stuff is Uh.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like people who know this case are just
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: taking notes about what I'm getting wrong here, and I'd
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: like to, Uh, I'd like to, you know, kind of
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: address that briefly by saying that a lot of these
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: case files are sealed because it's an active, active litigation
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. Nobody wants to talk about this.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Like the guy who sent us that that pissy note
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: um yesterday. Uh, he was privy to seal the information.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: He was very he was privy to seal the information,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: and uh ended his his letter um with a long
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: disclaimer about how we could not reproduce this, we could
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: not use his name, that it was not the official
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: opinion of anybody or anything. Uh. And that's the That's
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: what I've run up against a lot in this court case, um,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: because you know what happened. Yeah, And they tell me
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: some other part of it, and I would say, well, man,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: how where can I go see that? And they'd say,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: you can't. It's not part of public so it's hard
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: to Yeah, And and what I'm what I'm talking about
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: here this testimony what I extracted by by skimming through
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy pages of court transcription from the
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: from the testimony. But anyway, um, the the court in
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Wyoming um did A issued a pre trial decision saying
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: that these men could not use a treaty right argument
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: within this within this case. So they and you don't
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: need to explain to you. But I just don't understand
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: the court system enough to understand that. I don't either,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Steve and so, and it seems it's it seems odd.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: It seems odd to me. Let you understood it better.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I do. I do too. And I imagine this podcast
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: will get a lot of people reaching out and maybe
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: somebody we can actually quote about it. Um And and
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: I loved dr talk to anybody about this. And I'm
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: sorry if I pissed anybody off. I want to point
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: out I think you're doing a great job. Okay, thanks,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that you're trying really hard, because here's the thing.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: It's not like we're airing someone's dirty laundry. This is
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: being heard by the Supreme Court. Yeah, and as we'll
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: get to this could is something that could have significant
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say major could have significant tangible ramifications.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: It could and it couldn't. You couldn't, it couldn't. So
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: so if you hit some points here, Sam, where you like,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: during your investigation here tracking down UM leads, have you
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: hit some points where you're like, I'm just this is
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: pointless to go forward. Yes, So I wanted to walk
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: away from this so badly. I I got to the
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: point where I was like, man, I really wish I
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: hadn't opened my mouth about this story, because it got
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: to it got to the point where it was it
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: was very difficult to proceed and to really know, to
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: be able to parse it because everybody, everybody's got vested
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: interest here and there. There's so many different, strange, like
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: competing UH sympathies. Most of the mainstream news coverage you
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: see on here is about this is oh nasty, Wyoming
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: is just being mean to those natives that they promised
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: this too, and now they're reneging on these treaty rights,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: all these hundreds this hundred fifty years later. UM. But
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: then on the other side of it, UH, you know
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: is some some pretty uh I feel like overblown UM
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: rhetoric about what would happen UH I think both extremes absolutely,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: and so that that's what I was seeking to accomplish
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: with this story, is to is to make something that
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: people could read all the way through that you know,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: I was aware of those extremes but didn't buy into them.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: And I think, honestly, most of the fee back I've
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: been getting about this was Hunters saying Hunters were angry
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: at us for not condemning her era M and I
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: that's just not my role as a journalist. Like, I
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: kept myself out of this as much as I possibly could.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: Obviously you can't completely eliminate bias, but I wasn't willing to.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: I wasn't willing to say that you know he but
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: you haven't. But you haven't even gotten to the part
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: that the court cares about. Yeah, okay, so yeah, the
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: part that the court cares all circumspects. But yeah, well yeah,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: so so that's how we got caught. The went went
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: to trial, it was found guilty. The the jury agreed
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: with the prosecution. That uh, and so he argued because
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: he couldn't make the treaty right argument in court, he
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: argued that he didn't know he was in Wyoming, and
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: that is the kind of return to what side tractice, Yeah,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: like some legal professional needs to explain to me how
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: you can how in a court they can it can
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: be dictated to you. What I don't get it. Like
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: let's say you kill someone and you're like, you're like,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: but those self defense bro or I'm gonna act like
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: those self defense whatever, and they say you can't say that.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: I don't understand that. But I don't understand Okay, Okay,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: So I think I think I think part of this
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: in gosh, I wish, I wish I understood this center,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: but part of it is is an issue, a thing
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: called issue preclusion. So I think I think that's what
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: perhaps where where this pre trial is decision derives from,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: because Wyoming is saying that because this issue has already
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: been litigated in in high court decisions that I'm about
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: to discuss, because this issue has already been been litigated,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: you can't relitigate that issue, yes, So so what go ahead?
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: He's saying he didn't know he was in the state
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: of Wyoming, but he wasn't like the list of charges
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: brought against him didn't include hunting without a license. Yeah,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: I did, it did he would have been legal he
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: would have been, it wouldn't have been Wyoming's issue. And
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: the Crow reservation, I don't believe the Crow tribe issues
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: deer or elk hunting licenses because it's treated as a
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: as an inalienable right. You're allowed to go shoot deer
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: and elk as a Crow tribe member on the reservation
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: kind of whenever you want. Collateral estopple is your issue preclusion? Yeah,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: issue preclusion is is by and large what's being argued,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: um by Wyoming in the Supreme Court. That's correct me
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But isn't there also something that hinges
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: upon the definition of occupied land? Yes, oh yeah, but
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: that we haven't got that. But but you know, now
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling it on how you cannot like let's say,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: let's say we've live in some fictitious world in which um,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: some Supreme Court decide hides that that self defense is
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: not a justifiable self defense isn't justifiable for murder. So
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: then later I'm like, I get murdered. I'm like, well,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that it was self defense, and they say, no,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: you're not, because it's been decided that that isn't a defense.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: So I could see some version go on. Yeah, I'm
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: feeling better now. Yeah. So Wyoming is pointing to two
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: separate court cases. Um in eighteen ninety six Supreme Court
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: ruling called Ward v. Racehorse, I'll back up because you're
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: not you're not there yet. I'm you're right, You're tight,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: You're you're right, You're right. He's convicted and appeals Yes,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: and uh. The appeal obviously has made it to the
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court. And what is his what is
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: his appeal? His appeal to forbidden appeal? Correct. His appeal
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: is that the eighteen sixty eight second Treaty of Fort
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: Laramie included Lane Whidge that the Crow tribe when the
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Crow tribe exceeded some thirty million acres of Montana, Wyoming,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: North and South Dakota to the United States and were
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: allotted there I think eight million acre reservation, they retained
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: the right to hunt on the unoccupied lands of the
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: United States, so long as game may be found there.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: On some wishy washy words. Yeah, yeah, but no, not
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: words I wishy washy word right, what is it unclaimed
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: or unoccupied? Unoccupied, unoccupied lands of the United States, so
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: long as game may be found there on. So the
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: state of Wyoming became a state shortly after that in
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: eight and in eight six the Shoshoni Bannock tribe UM
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: tried to assert a similar hunting right with similar language,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: I think the same language actually unoccupied lands of the
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: United States UM, asserting off reservation tribal hunting rights in Wyoming.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court said that, Um, when the state
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: of Wyoming entered the Union, they did so on the
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: same footing as all other states, the equal footing doctrine.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: That's that's pretty ubiquitous, UM. And that that equal footing
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: includes sovereignty over the natural resources within that state. So
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: word vy Racehorse said that the the Shoshone Bannocks tribal
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: hunting rights were extinguished by Wyoming's statehood, like they became
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: not unoccupied. Yes, that that land became occupied when Wyoming
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: became a state. It was it was unoccupied territory prior
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: to that, then it became a state. So that's that's
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: your definition right there of what is occupied. Yes, and
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: that's being tested, yes, and and that's and there's there's
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: another layer to that, UM. There was another Uh, there's
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: another decision from the Tenth Circuit Court in so just
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: shy of A hundred years later UM in a case
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: called Crow Tribe of Indians Versus Repsis, which is a
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: very similar case to this, it was a Crow tribal
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: member who killed an elk out of season without a
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: license in the Big Horn National Forest. That did not
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: go to the Supreme Court UH. That ended at the
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: at the Tent Circuit court. But the Tent Circuit asserted
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: that the creation of the Big Horn National Forest resulted
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: in the occupation of the land. The Big Horn National
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: Forest was designated in seven it's one of the oldest
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: protected areas UM in the country. So there's those two
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: those two cases. But shortly thereafter after the Repsist decision UH,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court heard a case called Minnesota the mill
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: Locks Band of Chipwah Indians UM and the curt The
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Court maintained in that decision that the Millocks tribe main
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: did maintain hunting and fishing rights on the lands they
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: had seated under a similar treaty agreement UM. But they
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: did not reverse either the Racehorse or the Repsist decision.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: So now there's these three conflicting precedents that the Supreme
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: Court is is is wrestling with yeah, because I'd have
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: to challenge, like, is the U S territory of Guam
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: technically unoccupied because it's not incorporated as a state, well,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: and you could show up and hunt a tribal member,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: go hunt Guam. The oral arguments in the Supreme Court, Uh, yeah,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. The Supreme Court
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: UM wrestled with this in the in the oral oral arguments,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: and they're I mean they're they're throwing jokes back and
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: forth about like how the hell do we decide what
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: unoccupied land is? They asked, let's see, three lawyers, attorneys
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: spoke before the Supreme Court UM, one representing her Era,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: one representing the United States, who is intervening on behalf
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: of Herrera in this case, so they're siding with the
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: Crow tribe, and then the the attorney for Wyoming. Uh.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: And they asked all of them, what, how do how
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: do we what's what's unoccupied land? How do we decide that?
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: I asked the wildlife professional about this. UM. I don't
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: want to tell who because I didn't talked to about
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: how I was going to use this perspective, but I
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: was asking, like when when people were drawing up these treaties.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: I was expressing some surprise about using language it would
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: be so confounding to later generations, and he said that
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: confounding gets it. He said that that probably wasn't the
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: word that mattered to them because at the time when
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: they were doing this, because I think the assumption was
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: that the game would be exhausted. Yes, yes, they didn't
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: view it wasn't normal. Was picturing that we'd still have
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: the resources, and it was like they were watching it
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: vanish as long as they're go ahead, Well, it was exhausted.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: And and that's and that's an interesting argument that hasn't
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: been made, but has been suggested to me that elk
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: were extirpated from the Big Horn Mountains. So so the
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: tree language not only says the unoccupied lance part, but
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: so long as game may be found there on. So
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: the state of Wyoming also could make the argument that
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: because at one point game could not be found there
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: on in the Big Horn National Forest in the state
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: of Wyoming brought them back as well as bringing elk
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: back to the Crow Reservation, that you know that the
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: treaty right right was extinguished because of that. That's not
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: the argument they made. But it's when they perhaps could
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: have that. Yeah, and and and I've I've heard that too,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: that uh, the negotiators, if you will, for the United
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: States at the time, we're thinking that that, well, we're
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: we're we're damn far down the road of getting rid
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: of all the bison and elk and everything, and they're
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: probably not gonna last a whole lot longer. So what
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: what what value validity does this have? This, this truck,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: this right will will go away just because they won't
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: have anything left to shoot not too long. It seems
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: that the money is betting on Wyoming losing. Like we
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: don't know how much they'll lose or how bad they'll lose,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: but the money seems to be betting on that Wyoming
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: will lose. Yes, Yes, that's that's a that's my if
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: I to read the tea leaves, and there's two, there's
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: two competing wisdoms here, one competing one one wisdom. One
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: idea is that this will mean that the whole system
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: that we've built around assessing wildlife populations, making a determination
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: about harvestable quotas and being able to enforce that, like,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: all of that's gone. Now. If I'm just saying that
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: that the two look radical competing with that that is
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: the given the radicals here, Yeah, the radical sides and
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: and and we'll getting on what might be the thing.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: But like you, you wouldn't need to you, you don't
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: need to look far to find someone who could say, well,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: what this could mean was is that tribal members can
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: go out onto any national forest, any blm land. I've
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: even heard national park and shoot whatever you want, whenever
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: you want, whenever you want unoccupied land. And it will
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: make land and will make wildlife management very difficult because
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: we won't have enforcement systems in quotas and and bag
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: limits and seasons and all that. That's that's one thing.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: Another thing is that, um, this is nothing new. Other
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: states have been in this situation. There's states that work
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: in cooperation, most states, and it wasn't and it wasn't
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: wildlife armageddon, and there's no reason to think that it
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: will be here. Those are like right. I haven't been
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: able to confirm this, but I've heard a couple of
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: times that Wyoming is the only state that does not
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: allow any form of off reservation treaty hunting every other apparently,
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: I cannot confirm this but I have heard that every
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: other state in the West there exists some form. I mean,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: we were just talking about it. In the case of
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: the Gardener bison hunt that's off reservation treaty hunting. Yeah,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: and there I think and and man I could be off.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: But in there, I feel like it just has to
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: be that the tribe actually, like the tribe doing the
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: bison hunting, but they're doing it in cooperation. They're like,
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: there's like quote as they went place, it's like historic
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: use patterns. So it can't be that like that. I
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: don't think that that someone from um, like a seminole. Perhaps,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I could be wrong with us. I
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: don't think a seminole could come out and make a
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: claim that they're gonna shoot buffalo on the border of
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: Also National Park. I think it has to be a
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: group that has some sort of historic youth handing. Now
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: the Nez Purse, who I went there. As we all know,
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: when the yes net Purse were during the Netz perse War,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: Um they traveled through Yellowstone, so it was like they
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: had an awareness of the area they were able to
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: navigate through there. They had historically gone out and hunted
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: on the plains because like our our people, if they
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: didn't know about it and didn't know how to travel
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: through there, they wouldn't have gone through there in eighteen
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: seventy seven. So we had a historic there was a
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: historic use. Yes, and in many tribes have petitioned based
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: on historic use and in treaty language successfully and in
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: very very recently too. Um. Two uh, restore those those
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: hunting rights based on historic use. Um. So what didn't
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: we hit? What didn't we hit? Well, yeah, okay, so
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: we we didn't. We didn't quite we didn't quite wrap
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: that wrap that up about what what would happen. So yeah,
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: there's people who are saying, well, yes, if the Supreme Court,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: you know, rules in favor of Herrera, then all of
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: a sudden, there will be tribal members in every national
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: forest in the West, shooting whatever they want, whenever they want.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be extreme. I would be that that's
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: just not gonna happen. Well, the matter is that's not
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: gonna happen. You don't know because there could be some
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: huge sweeping like now and then the court will have
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: like some huge sweeping thing that causes a lot of Yes,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: but that there overturned a lot. The doctrine of conservation
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: necessity is in everyone's minds here, and that is a
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: a well established UM precedent. That's that basically prevents courts
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: from issuing decisions that would have drastic negative consequences for
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: wildlife populations. This is this is this is something that
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: dates back a long ways and UM the Supreme Court
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: is is highly aware of The Supreme Court is unlikely
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: to completely solve this issue. Uh They they typically, I
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: mean the Supreme Court deals and high minded ideals, if
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: you will, so they what I would guess they would
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: do is issue a test for occupancy. Two. I imagine
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: they will say that there are unoccupied lands in Wyoming still.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: But what that means that they may remand to a
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: lower quarter or they may issue some form like what
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: what I think about? Here is another case I'm familiar with,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: you know, the current litigation surrounding the Clean Water Act.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: Uh So that the the issue there is like what
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: what what are connected waterways? Like? What are you allowed
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: to pollute? What are you not allowed to pollute? And UM,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: what they're basing a lot of the revision of that
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: Clean Water Act rulemaking is on UM significant nexus or
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: is it is it navigable or you know how water
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: flows from one place to the other. That's what the
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court likes to do, is like, here's a test.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: This is how you go down and you go figure
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: it out. And so they'll probably remand to the tent
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: circuit or whoever it is um based on this, and
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: I've heard some I've heard some suggestions that it's hundred
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: and fifty yards from a road and two hundred yards
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: from a campground in in a national forest and on
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: on public land or so so they they may issue
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: some some like these are unoccupied lands, but the conservation,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: the doctrine of conservation necessity will likely lead them or
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: the lower court they were manned to too effectively force
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: Wyoming and the Crow tribe to come to the table
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: and and say, okay, you do have the Crow tribal
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: members do have this right to hunt these unoccupied lands,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: whatever they may be, and put it to Wyoming to
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: accommodate them. Yeah, exactly, Wyoming will have to accommodate them.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: And and in the story I have an example of
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: how how that um went down with a tribe in Colorado. UM.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: And so you know, one guy I talked to UH
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: for this for this story he gets. He gives the
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: example of UM, so say there's hundred ELK tags for
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: that unit currently. He if he's looking at the crystal
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: ball or t leaves or whatever, he's saying, like, you
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: know currently, and you know these these are numbers out
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: of thin air. But he's like, so if you currently
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: have eighty licenses, of those licenses going to residents and
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: twenty going to non residents, after whatever may happen, if
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: they rule in favor of Herrera, then you'd have sixty
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: of those licenses going to residents, ten going to non residents,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: in like thirty going to crow tribe members. So that
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: that's that's how that's how significant reduction of available tags. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: you know that's what you just brought up. Something that's
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: interesting with the guy that this idea of, like should
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: you be able to do nonresident hunting is um Most
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: states also put a cap. Most states limit like an
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: available resource for only ten percent of the resources can
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: go to non residents. Yeah, and Wyoming does all sorts
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: of crazy stuff like that, like you can't hunt in
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: the wilderness areas and nonresident that without not a guide,
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: which I believe is unconstitutional. But I asked the governor
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: there about that. He didn't want to discuss it. I
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: would imagine that's unfair rule. How do you justify that?
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: He goes, I don't need to justify it to you.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: I spent out it was it was a joking. He
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: didn't really. I mean it was we're formally joking around,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: uh my buddies over there on the Idaho side. That
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what they always come back to is like, listen,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: you may have more pressure in your area, but the
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: number of nonresident hunters doesn't change. It's like, for the
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: last X amount of years it's been this much, it's capped. Yeah,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: It's like it's it's never above ten percent. And he's like, yeah,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: I don't doubt that you're seeing more pressure in year zone. Well,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: Colorado Archery ELK, it is not capped. There's over the
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: counter tags all over damn state. Oh really that's cap
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: That's interesting because he feels like you will see Brody.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: Brody is predicting that you will see the end of that. Yeah,
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: it will become capped. I I thought that they I guess,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: not right. Not happening to move at that direction. But
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: they're doing some stuff this year. But they didn't. They
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: didn't cap like the OTC tags. They didn't do any Idaho.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: Every non resident purchase goes against that quota. So it
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're buying all the way up in
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: the Panhandle, uh, you know, unit one or all the
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: way on the complete opposite side of Hell's Canyon. Um,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: it all comes out of a nonresident pool, can I
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: I know I got us off on that, but I
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: get us back. What are we missing? Sam? I feel
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: like we've covered it, so we gotta wait now, we
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: gotta we gotta wait. But yeah, you know, I mean
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: too if you had to one to tenant, one to
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: tenant on this is like one to tenant, um Like
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: this is like, oh my god, this is gonna change
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: life as we know it. Being a ten one will
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: be that there's no not even a blip. You'll never
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: really you could live your whole life and never knew
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: this happened. Um, where are you putting it? Putting into?
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah it is. I wish you'd ask me that an
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: hour ago, and I could have thought about a little bit.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: But I'd say a three or four for three or four, Yeah,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: I mean and and so and and everybody like with
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: with this piece of everybody wanted to put like big
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: implications in the in the headline and and major changes coming.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: And I just I was uncomfortable with that because I
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: because because of the content doctrine of conservation necessity, we
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: don't have unregulated hunting in the United States by and large.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: You know this will this will ultimately fit into some
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: form of game management system. Will people in Wyoming lose opportunity?
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: That's that's possible. I don't think that's yeah, quite possible. Um,
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: But uh, you know something something that um Herrera's lawyer
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: keeps harping on whenever I've talked to her is that
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: elk are over objective in that unit and that Wyoming
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: apparently can't get rid of enough elk tags. And so
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: what's interesting about this, and we talked about this, and
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: you talked about it too, is that none of this
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: matters to the court. The Supreme Court doesn't care like
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: about the elk objective. They don't care if you took
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: all the meat, none of the meat. It doesn't matter
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: if you shot a hundred of them. Yeah, it doesn't
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: matter if you tortured them they're talking about ceremonials, talking
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: about like three or four words. They're talking about issue
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: preclusion and unoccupied lands. They're not that's all they're making
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: Like was this ethical? And it's like there, it's like
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: they're looking at something very clean. All of the stuff
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: we're getting into, all the preluders like Germane. It's like,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: is someone who's living under this treaty that was made
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: with the federal government, what is the definition of a
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: term that was using your treaty? Yeah, and so and
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: so that whole story I took I took people through
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: is like and that that's what everybody points to, is I.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh man, he just he's felt so guilty.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: He felt he really feels like poaching. Even someone on
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: staff was like, while he was poaching, let's just say
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: it was poaching. That's not, that's not, that's not, that's
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: not what's a foot here that that's not what the
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court does. More than likely, I would expect that
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: whatever the Supreme Court decides, there will be another ruling
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: by a lower court case that will decide if he
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: was poaching or not, and he will gets slapped with
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: a fine for that. You don't think so. No, if
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: he wins, he's not going to get a If he
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: wins the Supreme Court case, he's not going to get
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: fined by the state. Right, Well, you know who knows.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: Let's let' let's let's revisit this after Yeah, let's bring
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: a lawyer in here. But yeah, so I I really,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: I really think that you know, it will affect hunters
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: in Wyoming, UM by some measure, But I don't think
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: it blows up the North America in the auto of
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: wildlife conservation like some people are asserting. That's your prediction,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: that's my prediction. We'll return to it. Okay, Yeah, I'm
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: gonna I'm hooked now. I can't help but continue to
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: follow this. So, uh, it's it's gonna be. It's gonna
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: be quite a while until this is resolved, so we'll
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: have plenty more opportunities. I don't have a good segue
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: for what's coming. Net. Do you have a pivot? No? Well, yeah,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: I think a pivot that's just like you just start
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: talking about something different, right, No, pivot's kind of like
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: a segue. You could just jump. I like how you're
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: wearing a jump my dad. My dad calls My dad
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: calls it changing gears without hitting it, without stepping on
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: the clutch. I'm not clutching, and he loves to do that.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: He just changes changes topics on the drop of the happen.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: I forgot to clutch there. Sorry, because the theme, the
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: theme here, one of the themes here is um uh
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: we're talking about here, I'm working this out. One of
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: the themes that we're talking about. We're talking with writers
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: and uh and writing. We're talking about writing. They can
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: be found at the meat Eator dot com. And I'm
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: pivoting too, Miles Nick Nolton's kid, Miles, you never sent
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: me any good you know, birthday, yes, or anything. That's
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: what I was always hoping. Yeah, I mean he could
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: have afforded some some good ship. I never got anything.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: You gotta do a paternity claim, Like, well, how else
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: would I have the same name? Uh, lay out your deal.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: So the story that we're talking about comes from I
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: mean this kind of kicked around in my head when
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: I was ice fishing not too long ago, and we
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: were we were having a good day and we were
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: pulling a whole lot of perch through the ice and
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: just kind of take them off the hook, and we
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: had probably three inches of standing water on the ice
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: in the hut at that time, and I could just
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: hear these dozens of perch splashing around beneath us, not
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: not really dying, just kind of gasping and half freezing.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: And it got me thinking about how, particularly as hunters,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: we talk a lot about ethical killing. Yeah, like, you'd
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: never have a half a live deer in the back
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: of your truck. No, No, well I hadn't. My old
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: man was it was accident, it was a road kill.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: He didn't. He didn't do it, and someone else did it.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: You never drag a half a live deer and like
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: have it kicking behind me. That that's fine. Yeah, I'm
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: not worried about that. That That sounds pretty dangerous too. I
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: mean there is that aspect, but that's beyond but that's
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: not what that's not the point here. Beyond danger. Yes,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: So it got me thinking about how we we talk
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: a lot about ethical killing, and we judge people who kill,
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: how we determined to be unethically as hunters, but no
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: one seems to give a shit about fish. My sister
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: in law, you're okay, your sister in law teaser for it,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: for it and she made her job to dispatch fish,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: and we ridicule her for it. But we don't have
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: live squirrels bouncing around in our game bags. That would
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: be barbaric. And and if you wound the bird bird
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: hunting and it's still flopping, what do you do? Kill
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: it immediately? Immediately, immediately? And if you don't, you're a
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: bad person, right, I mean by all of like the
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: collective consciousness assessment, fish like tough shit, We just let
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: him go? Why is it? And this is my question,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: this is what I started thinking about, is why why
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: do we not care about fish? It's I think it's like, well,
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's just like a person,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: what the amount of credit you give them? High you've
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: talked about before. But so after you and I talked
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: about this, Steve, I went and did a deep dive
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: into some of the literature, like the actual research literature
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: on this and the dark web, Yes, the dark web?
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: Is that? Is that what we're calling the truth about
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: the truth about whatever. It's a real answer and and
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: believe it or not, like in certain biology circles or
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: certain certain uh corners of academia, right now, there is
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: a lively debate about how much pain fish feel and
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: whether or not they do feel pain. And this they're
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: like these sort of these two camps that are lobbying
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: articles back and forth in different journals. They keep referencing
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: the same each other and and going back and forth
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: convinced fish do feel pain or convinced the argument for
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: why fish can't feel pain. And it seems to me
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: that all of this, like I learned, I learned a
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: lot of vocabulary while I was doing this. I figured
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: you guys would would appreciate vocabulary. So one being, um,
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: the things that cause pain into two critters are referred
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: to as noxious stimuli. Got it. Yep, I'm liking that one. Yep.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: And the beginning for a band, Yeah, would like it's
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: real hard metal. Yeah, very like death metal. Knocks at
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of like feedback and they sing like death metal.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: Well that that's that's a great segue into your lead.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: It is. But I'm I've got more like I've got
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: I've got these the goes on right like you got.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not a stimuli. I'm just saying your vana. I
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: know I do cover that in the article. We do
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: get into you know, I do believe there's but there's
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: possibly like the reason at least our generation doesn't think
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: that that's cool. The torture fish is because of Kurt Cobain.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: We can completely blame him for his his lyrics that
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: you know it's okay to eat fish because they don't
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: have any feelings. But I don't buy that. Cobain said
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: that he did Underneath the Bridge. Yeah, I never did
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: like that band. I mean nothing to do with that.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, you're from that area. I couldn't help it.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: I still I don't. I don't don't consider him like
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: a solid source on on fish. You don't go there
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: for your theology. I don't. I don't. There were people
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: in my class bawling the day Cobain killed himself, or
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: the day of the news came out that he had killed.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not about being I'm not gonna like act like
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sad when someone passes away. I'm not. I'm not
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: sitting up sorry. I'm not gonna act like I'm not
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: gonna stay like. That's not I means said the opposite.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: I went, I'm saying like meat digging, and I just
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: don't like the music as bearing out my feelings about
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: one's passage, especially someone has a child. Yes, I'm gonna
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna pivot this back to to where the noxious
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: stimulator things that could hurt something. The the behavior of
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: responding to noxious stimuli without being conscious of it or
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: is known as no seception or nazi semption. I'm not
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: totally sure. And and where this really hinges is the
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: difference between having the subjective experience of pain, which is
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: known or subjective experiences are known as quality just more
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: more thrown out there. But there's a subjective experience of
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: pain versus sort of the unconscious response to a noxious stimulus.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: And the best analogy that I was able to find
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: was that, like when you put your hand down on
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: a hot burner, your body jerks your hand away before
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: you experience pain, And so those two neurological experiences are different,
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: like that the processes in the brain are very different
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: between having what they would call a nose defensive behavior
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: pulling your hand away, and then having the subjective experience
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: of having pain. And so where these two camps of
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: researchers seem to differ is do fish have the physiological
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: capability of getting to that pain experience? And some say
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: they dunes, some say they don't. So there there's still
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: debate between these two camps of biologists as to whether
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: or not fish are just reacting to not just stimuli,
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: or they're actually have or they have the capacity to
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: both react to it and feel it as a pain experience,
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: if the quality or the subjective experience is similar to
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: ourselves and higher primates. And so there's there, you know,
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: if you look at it in terms of the evolutionary
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: tree of vertebrates, fish are about as far from primates
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: as you can get. And there are a lot of
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: differences in the way that we're put together. And these
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: two camps of researchers are essentially arguing over something that
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: right now is unknowable. What is the internal experience of fish?
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: And point unknowable it is? And and they both seem
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: to me, And I'm sure we're gonna get mail from
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: folks who are researching to no more than I do.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: It seems to me that they're working from predetermined notions.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: One camp be in like it is we since we
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: can't know the possibility of subjecting these critters to pain
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: that's not unnecessary, is is atrocious, and we should therefore
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: make sure we're not doing it, and the other camp
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: saying the value to humans of our the way that
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: we're doing things like the way that we fish, the
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: way that we farm, the way that we do testing
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: on fish is so high that we can't assume that
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: they're having the pain experience. And so they both are
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: working from their their preconceived notions of value and trying
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: to prove something that at this point is unknowable. Where
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: are you add it? I mean, I'm stuck on the
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: unknowable part, and I have I love fishing and I'm
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: not gonna stop fishing. And I think that fish experience stress.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: There's no question they experience stress. You can, you can,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: there is is there no question that fish experience stress.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: That part is is no question they experienced stress. They
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: have stress hormones. They there are a lot of studies
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: that demonstrate that they avoid noxious stimuli right, and that
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: they different fish more than others. By the way, trout
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: do not avoid noxious stimuli because they're not as smart
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: as say goldfish. Different story though. The other thing I found,
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: but that's why the can catch them so good. I
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: still think I still from when going back to the
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: initial story, I don't think there's any reason to unnecessarily
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: subject fish to stress if you're just gonna kill him anyway.
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: So you're now stopping, you're stopping. Okay, let me put
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: it this way. Let's say you're fishing bluegills. It's hot,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: and you're throwing them in a bucket because they stay
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: alive in the bucket, they do. And you keep adding
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: water because you're live well alive because it's hot out
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: you don't happen to have a whole bunch of ice
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: and packing them on ice and whatnot. Do you think
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: that's bad? He damn sure is not wanting to be
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: in that bucket. Yeah, I mean, I I think that.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: I think that. I'm not I'm not condemning live wells.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna come. I'm not gonna go with that
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: about buckets. I mean, do you make an argument the
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: bucket alive well, pretty damn so properly managed. I think
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: those are pretty dmpn similar, I think. And I think
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: that in that case, if you're playing to harvest that
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: fish and it's a question of spoiling the meat and
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: wasting the critter, I'm gonna say keep it in the
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: keeping the bucket and keep alive, but then dispatch it
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: quickly when you remove it from there. Here's the thing
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: that makes us interesting too. And you talk about this,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: you talk about killing fish. When you were a commercial fisherman,
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: I was. I was. I was a guide that was
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: a recreation guide, but we were harvesting a lot of
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: I was gotten up in Alaska. I got it up
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: in Alaska for years, and we harvested a lot of
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: salmon for our clients, and we essentially became fish processors.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: Best practices, yeah, was to get them in as quickly
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: as possible, whack them right at the base of the
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: skull until you get the twitch, and then bleed them
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: out and get that meat off the bone. I did.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: I I commercial fish in Alaska for a long time,
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: and we would haul in tens of thousands of sam
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: at the same time into our hold of refrigerated seawater
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: that's exactly thirty four degrees and so, and they would
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: freeze to death over the span of about an hour
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: they'd be swimming around in there. So that seems much
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: less humane than what you were doing. Yeah, and and
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: that like to to that point. That's one of the
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: issues going on with the researchers are talking about right
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: the way that we harvest fish commercially, if they experienced pain, Like,
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: we have all these things in place for livestock, in
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: the way that you can kill livestock too, so that
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: it is as humane as possible, even like blind Yeah,
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: like blind alleys, you can't they can't see the one
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: in front of it. Yeah, and they don't see like
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: in a normal situation. I guess they they're not even
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: watching the one in front of it get hit. And
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: that's a neat quality issue as much as a that's
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: what That's what I's getting out the commercial practices is
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: it winds up being that Um, people who are like
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: just concerned with since they're just concerned without it's like
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: a reductive thing. People who are concerned with quality of flesh. Um.
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know about your case. I think people are
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: concerned with the quality fresh process real quick. Yeah. But
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: Sam's case is slightly different too, because we're talking about
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: he's talking about humane ethical kill and this is a
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: question of do fish feel pain? Well, this is both
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: And that's the difficulty of this of this debate is
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: because we're trying to apply science to a philosophical issue.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: The reason that we know this is possible though, or
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: it's a relatable thing is congenital in sensitivity to pain
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: or SIP genital and sensitivity genital um, which is the
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: human version of you have never felt pain, nor are
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: you capable of feeling physical pain. So by knowing about that,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: we do know that it is at least possible to say, well,
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: these fish or what whatever you want to discuss this on,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: it is possible that they could very well not feel
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: pain because we do have an established case. Um, I
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: know that these critters damn sure don't want to die. No,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: that's why. That's why. Yeah, I don't don't really have
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: any to add. My sister in law changed my my
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: My sister in law made me feel slightly sensitive to
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: it because she doesn't like it, and that that was
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: the base of your We're out fishing catfish, she don't
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: like them laying by. I'm about we're going all around,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: she won't even fish. Should just take a flame knife
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: and kill all the catfish. I would say this. I
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: would say this. I think that the point for me
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: in all of this is that we we talk about
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: trying to be at least conscious of the way that
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: we kill things, we're gonna harvest somewhere to eat them.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that we should apply that to fish
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: as much as we do anything else. And and because
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: because it's unknowable, take steps to you know, I'm not
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: saying don't go out and kill fish, because I'm not
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: gonna stop doing that, but to to do it in
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: a way that like if to not unnecessarily draw out
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: that process, because this was not hard to just whack
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: him over the back of the head. And they're done
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: the same way, like if you kill your ducks to
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: someone say like I don't, I think you should when
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: you run up to a duck, you should make sure
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: it's dead. That's not by extension saying you shouldn't hunt ducks. No, yeah,
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: we've just accepted that. That's like a normal practice. Have
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: you guys seen the videos of the Messiah when they
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: had decided to kill you know, they're nomadic hurds and
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: when they had decide I had to kill one of
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: their beeves. Um, like, it's quite the slaughter process because
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: like everybody's around petting this. I would assume a steer um.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what age class they select, but that
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: would suggest that they cast right. That would suggest that
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: they cast right if it's a steer. But and I'm
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: putting a lot of western uh yeah. But they're around
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: like petting this uh beef and uh I had and
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: from what outside looking in, making it seem very special.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: And then somebody just pops a real quick hole and
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: it's jugular vein and uh they continue to sit there
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: and and pet it and eventually it just like weekends
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: and goes to sleep. There's a apocalypse now now they
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: do it. No, no, but that seems like killing them
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: softly approach. I think. I think the the quick kill
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: and uh, you know, quickly dispatching our our game is
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: something that's very caught up in the uh you know,
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: the fair chase ethic that's developed around sport hunting in
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: the United States over the last hundred years. Because I
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: imagine the market hunters of old didn't care so much
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: about it. I'm guessing not guys who were out killing,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: you know, dozens and dozens of deer bison every day
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: probably weren't overly bothered by the you know, how long
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: it took for them to die. They were, but for
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: other reasons. But someone who ran four their bison off
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: cliff right. Yeah, probably wasn't top of mind to go
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: and make sure I mean that that was like a
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: maiming exercise. It was like, probably not top of mind
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: to make sure everyone was humanely dispatched real quick. No.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: But I mean, this is this is something that has grown,
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: as you know, I feel like concurrently with the fair
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: chase ethic, and I think it's a positive notion. I
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: think it's tied to a lot of other Western ideals
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: and even anthropomorphism, the growth of that in our culture.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: So it's it's fascinating to me. And just dealing with
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: the working on this piece with Miles, it's it's really
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: made me introspective about it. Now. I sort of feel
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: bad for letting tens of thousands of pink salmon, uh
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: you know, die over the band of a couple hours.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: And it's it's really made me think about this and
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: every every fish I've caught since then. I've just it's
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: not too hard to take a filet knife and stab
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: it right behind the eye and make them dead quickly. Man,
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: those boys and gone are good at it. They kill him,
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: they do because all their fish bite. Yeah, they around
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: the bottle of the boat. They'll take a chunk out
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: of your leg. Man, they got it down pat. They
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: hit it like it's like they take that knife and
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll stand the fish up, belly down, thin up,
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: and they hit the sweet spot with that tip of
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: that knife that fishes. It's a good practice. Sometimes. My
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: dad almost lost a toe to a dungeon s crab
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: that was wandering around at the bottom of the boat.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: But you know, some folks again for the meat, the
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: consistency of meat that they're looking for. It's like you
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: want to leave that heart pumping pop a gil so
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: it's bleeding out. That doesn't sound very good. And then
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: there's that may practice miles about that. That's that that
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: can't be a good a good way to go. That's
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: where that's where the man. Once you e k G
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: may something. It's dead dead dead dead dead, Yeah, the
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: dead dead. Explain what that is e k G. Man Um. Basically,
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: you start at the tail um and there's a lot
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: to do with like getting the fish cold um, but
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: it's still alive. Um. You cut the tail open. It
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: hasn't been bonked on the head or nothing. It hasn't
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: been bonked on the head. Yeah, you peel the tail back.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: You take a metal rod and you running up the
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: spinal column to the base of the brain. And what
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: that does is it uh prevents the fish going uh
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: for going through riga moartas changes change us the way. Yeah,
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: we had a guy right in all about this changes
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: the way to say, like there's like when you slaughter cattle.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: Have you ever watching the slaughter cattle and a slaughter facility?
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: Not personally, so I think this is the right sequence.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: The hit with a captive bolt gun, hoist it up,
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: cut it, electrocute it, electrify it. And that has to
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: do with yeah, it has to do with like neat
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: quality issues. But it just melts. There's no like like
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: changes the way. It's like seized up. And and we're
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: the first time I went to Guyana, they killed turtles
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: that way. Cut the head off the turtle and take
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: a long skewer. Did they go out caught in the jungle,
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: Take a long skewer and run it down the turtle spine,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: down the center of the spine. Because normally if you
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: kill a snap and turl, you can't clean it for
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: an hour or two. You clean that turtle the second
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: you cut its head off because once you e K G.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: Made it, I'm using verb form up. Once you did
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: that to it, you could lift this leg up and
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: drop it and the leg just falls flat dead. There's
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: no nerve like, there's no like nerve contraction. It just melts.
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating telling you what, man, And it has to
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: do with like like sushi, and you know the applications.
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not even totally checked out. I need to tell
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: again this is somebody reading about it right now. But
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: it was interesting on the fish thing because if at
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: any point in time a thousand years ago, um, somebody
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: truly thought fish had pain experiencing that, I think it'd
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 1: take a real tough son of a bit should be like, listen, man,
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: I know it's really gonna hurt, but I'm gonna run
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: this metal route up your spine. If you're quick about it. Yeah,
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: you know what's dead. It's going to be dead, real dead. Yes,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: if I did that to you, just like jelly, no
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: bringing you back. But I think I think the point
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: here that s important is that like, is it possible
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: that that we are anthropomorphizing all the game as it's
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 1: very possible, But I also think that that's there's there's
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: a validity to that, to it to to take best
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: practices that we can to tomize the potential of suffering,
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: whether because we do not know, like, at least from
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: the research that I was reading, we do not know.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: You're not ruining You're not like ruining the meat. No,
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: you're not. It's like it's not costing you anything. And
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: if it's only a ten percent chance that it's diminishing suffering,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: why not exactly? And from a oral standpoint, it's just
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: better ground to stand on. Yeah, I feel like we
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: can feel better about ourselves as hunters and anglers if
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: we have a higher degree of respect for the animal
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: in its life. And I feel like, you know, in
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: the day and age we live in, having you know,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: a positive public perception of our practices is as is
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: very important that we consider these things. In fact, just
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: the very fact that we consider them. I think it's beneficial.
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: Was the name of your article, Miles, Uh, it's it's
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: it's currently being decided because it hasn't come out yet.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: It will be coming out next week, so we we
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: the draft hoppy is finished, But you go with a
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: clever one or just one that lays it right. Out.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure yet. Like I've got two different options
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: right now, so I'm I'm I mean, the obvious one
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: is do fish feel pain? I've seen that or that exactly.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: That undersells it, man, I know, I think you should
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: call it um. It's working on ethical right now. It's
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: ethical fish killing. It's sort of the working title. But
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: I think that's lame and I want to get more interesting.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: I don't have a good title. I'm working on it.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: I was trying to get to a one fish to
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: fish red fish. Oh yeah, that's a type of situation.
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: I was trying to go with fish. I was trying
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: to go with a play on Nirvana or Kurt Cobain.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: I wonder if there's another lyric we get to extract there.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: There was there was one of those in the spirit
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: maybe yeah, de fish, real quick? What's wrong? Honest? Well,
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: I just want to say something. I've been listening to
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: you guys talk for like ten minutes. I was gon
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: and uh, I just feeling It's fun because last night
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: my wife and now we're talking about just like how
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: much does an animals suffer? We're like the kids were
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: somehow the HSUS came into it. And we're trying to
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: explain to kids like species versus individual animals, and we
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: got talking about suffering whatever until like we actually are
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: able to say, yes, this is the experience the animal hats.
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: We can't really even use a term and apply the
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: term suffering to them because you just don't know. And
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, look at how individuals are different. You might
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: suffer when we're out there in Alaska in the rain
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: and it's shitty and you have a suffering sensation. I
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: might not. I might relish that, and and and and
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: and do well in it, right, and so like it's
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: and it's we bring up these things were like we're like, oh, well,
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: we feel better about it, and sure we do, but
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: it's like this made up fantasy really that like it's
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: in our own heads that we now feel better about
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: this thing that we're doing where we really don't have
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: like there's just no basis to it because we don't know.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: You could say in the experience. You can say the
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: same thing though about all fair chase philosophy. Totally no,
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: And I agree, like it's something that we've made up
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: and we decided that those are the rules that we're
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: going to play by. Yeah, well, that that's what ethics is.
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: An animal rights ethicist that I spoke with, the guy
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: that's interviewed in the Stars in This Guy documentary, he
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: one of the things he tries not try it out.
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things you explained to me
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: is he's like, look at the way are like the
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: way the country handles human rights. All we recognize that
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: all people have rights. It's not we don't base out
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 1: your rights like an American's rights recognized by the government.
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: We don't go like, oh yeah, but you're not that smart,
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: so you don't have them, or um, you know, you're
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: handicapped in some way, so you don't have them. It's
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: just that we extend them. We agree on these ideas
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: that all people are created equal have these things. And
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: so that's what makes him uncomfortable with this idea. Well,
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it too dear, um, but I would
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: do it to a fish. But he does a better,
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 1: far better job of articulating this than I do. But
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of doing like such a bad job. I
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: almost regret bringing it up. But you get the point. No, no, absolutely,
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned him because his segment in
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: that film absolutely informed by thinking on this. I thought
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a super interesting inclusion to the
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: your discussion of hunting. Yeah, he's a good dude, like
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: an interesting well spoken um looks the part of a philosopher.
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: He's an interesting guy. Oh that the human hierarchy of
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: animals is something that I find really terrible. It's you. You,
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: you'd get a lot of advantage out of that. You know.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: Do I get a personally know what he's saying? You do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, sure,
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: I know what. I know what you've been eating. Um
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: all right, seth, sorry, um, just so we don't have
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: to deal with it next time we podcast E K G. May.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: I just did a quick search, read three quick different articles.
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: And they do because the main purpose is to do
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: it quickly to end up with a better quality flesh.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: And so there's a spike driven usually right, that's right
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: to kill it and then the process of bleeding and
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: severing the spinal Helen Choe Helen Show and her boyfriend
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: do it, and they have a special spike. That's right.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: I forgot all about it. He's got a special spike
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 1: and a special wire and he takes the special spike
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: and puts it in a special place in the fish's
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: head and then runs the wire up. That's exactly right.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: I would think he's got like a little special driver
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: for a spike. This is very particular about the placement
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 1: of said spike. Now that I think about it, I'm
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. The picture here looks very
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: much like were you fishing with us out there? We
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 1: had the fish raw? Was it especially good? It's good, man,
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 1: we had a lot of it. It's a bummer when
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: you get back to the dock and most of your
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: fishes are eating up. Yeah, living in the moment um
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: anything else, Yeah, no, seth bad. You'd be a bison hunter,
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: I know. And you could have gone down and tried
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: to implore them to extend the season. Yeah. I tried.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: I know I tried that. But no word of it,
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: not not that I've heard of yet. I feel like,
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: if it was gonna happen, what happened, right, Yeah, I
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: think so, Sam. Final thoughts concluders, you know, I'm talked out. Really,
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: you got water coming in over your waiters, bro. No,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: I think it's good. I'll stay. I'll keep my feet
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: on the bottom. You did a great job, man, I
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 1: don't want to do it. Someone had to do it. Yeah.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: I felt I felt like it was I felt like
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 1: it was something you know, in the space we exist
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: in as the company that we are, I felt like
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: somebody had to talk about it, and I I didn't
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: want to put that on anyone else, So I decided
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: to do it myself. And it was. It's been. It's
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: been a fascinating, a fascinating process, and uh, I hope
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: people understand that trying my best to to give you
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: the most accurate version of the truth and I'm not
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: trying to preference it either way, will continue to be fascinating.
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: It will continue to be fascinating. Miles Maulty, I'm gonna
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: echo the praise that you've given Sam. I think you
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: did a really good job of that piece. I think
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: that's a really hard one to do, and I'm glad
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: it didn't fall to me. You grad to find about
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 1: flopping perch that that one. I feel like I can
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: get my head around and I will piss off a
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: lot fewer people. Yeah, you never know, though, You'll always
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: find someone to get mad. I'm good at pissing people off.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: I've done that my whole career. Okay, do you want
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: me to clarify my hierarchy of animals statement? I was,
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: it's I is just excluding the human animal from that equation.
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: Oh I thought you're talking about position at the top
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: of the higherarchy. No, no, it just it really bothers
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 1: me where it's like, well, yeah, but that one special
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: you know, it goes in the charismatic Magafana argument that
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: we always talk about. It just drives me crazy that
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 1: people are so disconnected from what food is, so disconnected
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: from the animals, yet they feel like glue trapping mice
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: and ship like that. Yeah, slapping the glue trapping mice
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: and getting worked up because some guys eating deer somewhere.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, But I mean we play we play into
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: that too on some level. I mean, most hunters get
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: weird about, you know, when to eat a monkey, Oh yeah,
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: or dog? Yeah, dude, I'm telling you what. Everyone bleeds
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: in the hierarchy. Yeah, I put monkeys on the thing. Well.
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: I remember when we were at the fish shack years
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: ago and your oldest boy was challenging the hierarchy. He
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 1: was scooping up all these little eels and hermit crabs
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and he'd get them all situated in bucket,
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: and he'd have like little caves and stuff for him,
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: and then every morning everything could just be belly up
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: in that bucket, you know. And uh, that kind of
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: everybody kind of got together and I was like, all right, um,
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: wouldn't it be good at the end of the day.
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day. But he flipped about
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: se cucumbers cucumbers. So his hierarchy is that like fish, eels,
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: crabs or gunnals gunnalfish just look like an eel that
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: somehow the lowly c cucumber like dassn't be touched, but
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: he will suffocate innumerable other creatures and artificial like aquarium settings.
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: Perhaps the least cute and at least like least human
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: being there is a c cucumber just doesn't look like anything.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: It looks like something that has a doctor in his mind.
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: It was like, how could you hurt such a thing?
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: I need to go and dump out all the dead
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: stuff from my bucket. I'll tell you he's not he's
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: not interesting. Putting a perch back. No, no, no, he
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: was upset with me yesterday. He doesn't like that kind
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: of stuff at all. I got no concluders. Did ever
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: get a concluder in You're good except for you good
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: almost no, I'm spent alright, guys. Thanks