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Trump and Zelensky's Disastrous Meeting · Pod Save America

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  Speaker 1: or use code world at checkout. That's Sundays4Dogs. com slash world,
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  Speaker 1: code world. Hey, guys, it's Tommy Vitor. By now, you've
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: probably all seen footage of the disastrous meeting between Donald
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky Friday. They were supposed
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: to do a quick pool spray, which is when the
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: press comes in, shots a question and leaves, and then
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: have a meeting about rare earth minerals, hold a press
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: conference and then figure out the future of the U.S.-Ukrainian relationship.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: But instead, Trump and J.D. Vance erupted on Zelensky. They
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: ended up throwing the Ukrainian delegation out of the White House.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: And it was truly a meeting unlike anything I've ever
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: seen before. So what you're about to hear is a
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: quick reaction episode that Ben Rhodes and I recorded for
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Pod Save the World. We'll be covering this again next
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: week on Wednesday. Subscribe to Pod Save the World wherever
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: you get your podcasts or on YouTube. And here is
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: that episode.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Pod Save the World.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: I'm Ben Rhodes.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We are doing a little YouTube exclusive episode today based
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: off of President Zelensky's meeting with Donald Trump just now.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: We were going to plan to do this regardless. But Ben,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't expect it to be the worst meeting ever
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: in the Oval Office. I'm trying to think of an
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: example of a meeting that went worse. I mean, there
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: was the infamous Bibi Netanyahu-Obama meeting that you and I
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: were both in the room for, but it was nothing
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: even close to what just happened.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Not even close, yeah. This is unlike anything that has
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: taken place in my entire lifetime. And, you know, I'd
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: have to mine my brain. I mean, I assume there
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: were some tough meetings, you know, in the civil war. Um,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I never, never, we've never seen anything like it. Yeah.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll cut to the chase and start to play
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: you some of that. We have a very long clip, uh,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: and we're going to play some excerpts, pause and talk
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: about them and play some more because I honestly, it
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: was just impossible to cut it down. It was that
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: much of a fucking train wreck. So, uh, with that,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: here is a clip from Zelensky and Trump's meeting in
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: the Oval Office today, Friday, February 28th.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: He broken the ceasefire. He killed our people, and he
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners, but
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, J.D., you
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: are speaking about? What do you mean?
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: end the destruction of your country.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: in front of the American media. Right now, you guys
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: president for trying to bring it into this conflict.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: problems we have?
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: I have been to.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Count one.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know
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  Speaker 4: what happens is you bring people, you bring them on
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  Speaker 4: a propaganda.
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  Speaker 3: Tour, Mr.
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  Speaker 1: President.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, stop.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: OK, stop.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: This is the worst OK, stop episode in history. So
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: what you can hear there is Zelensky does his wind
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: up where he's talking about how we can't trust Putin
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: to implement a ceasefire because he breaks every agreement he's
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: ever signed. And actually, I was just watching Mike Pompeo
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: on Fox News talking about how the United States pulled
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: out of all these arms control agreements during the first
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Trump administration because Putin was breaking the terms of the deal. But,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it was hard to tell exactly what kind
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: of sets the meeting off here, Ben. But I do
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: think J.D. Vance is kind of the chief arsonist because
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Zelensky pretty quickly calls him out and is like, OK,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: you seem to know a lot about my country. Have
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: you ever been there? And obviously, obviously, Cheney Vance has not.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: And he flips out about it and just, I guess,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: says that any visit to Ukraine is a propaganda tour now.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Two things turn out to me about this. First, just
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: so people know what Zelensky is talking about. He's talking
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: about the Minsk agreement that was reached in the late
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Obama administration to essentially freeze the conflict and have some
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: kind of process whereby the The Ukrainians had autonomous regions
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: in these places where the Russians had invaded in eastern Ukraine.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: And what he's saying is Putin broke the ceasefire. The
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: last time someone tried to do what Trump's doing, you know,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Putin is the one that violated the agreement and reinvaded
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: the country and dramatically escalated. And that's just a fact.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: It's not an opinion. You know, so this is going
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: to be a reoccurring theme here that Zelensky's saying facts
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and J.D. Vance and Trump are just basically offering Kremlin
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: talking points in response. And then, Tommy, I said this
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: to you, but for J.D. Vance to refer to visits
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: that people make to Ukraine as propaganda tours was one
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of the most triggering things and many that were said today,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: because what people do when they go to Ukraine is
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: they often visit Bucha, for instance, where there were war
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: crimes committed, where innocent civilians were massacred, where children were killed.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And to call that a propaganda tour is so beyond
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: the pale. It's essentially him calling the truth propaganda. When
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: people go to Ukraine, what they see is the reality
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: of a country that's been invaded and bombarded and had
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: tens of thousands of children kidnapped and tens of thousands
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  Speaker 2: of people killed. And J.D. Vance calls that the propaganda.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: And it's up is down. It's black is white. It's
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: just 180 degrees wrong. And I agree with you, Tommy.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: It felt like J.D. Vance was setting a trap, like
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: he was getting trying to provoke Zelensky to say something
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: that would piss off Trump.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Which is a pretty fucking dark role for him to
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: be playing.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: But just to be clear, this meeting was ostensibly about
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: signing some sort of deal between the U.S. and Ukrainians
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: about rare earth minerals. In reality, it seems like it
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: was a setup to get to exactly this moment. So J.D.
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  Speaker 1: Vance and Donald Trump could harangue Zelensky in front of
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  Speaker 1: the cameras and show what a tough guy they are and,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: you know, beat their chest on Fox News later. But Ben,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned Bucha because that's another triggering thing
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: for me because you often hear these same conservatives, actually
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Democrats too, talk about how there were some early peace
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: talks between the Ukrainians and the Russians, but they blew
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: up and they often blame Zelensky for pulling out of
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: those talks. In fact, those talks blew up because the
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: atrocities that occurred at Bucha were revealed and it became
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: impossible for anyone in Ukraine to imagine cutting a deal
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: with with Putin and the Russians in that moment.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And this context was entirely missing. They seemed to
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: be offended by Zelensky pointing out that his country was
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: invaded by Putin. That seemed to offend Trump and J.D. Vance.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: And I think another piece of context here, Tommy, is
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Zelensky is a profoundly exhausted person.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: And you can see it on his face.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: You can see it on his face. I've You know,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: this guy probably barely sleeps at night. He has been
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: besieged by the Trump administration, bullied into trying to sign
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: this absurd deal for critical minerals. And he flies to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Washington because he feels this thing slipping away from him,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: this thing being U.S. support, as kind of a Hail Mary.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: And then he sits down and they bring the cameras
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: in and he just starts getting insulted. to his face
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: by people who can demonstrate no degree of empathy. I mean,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: like they don't even, not even a perfunctory, you know,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: tribute to what the people of Ukraine have done. And
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: they insulted not just Zelensky, this is important. They insulted
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: the Ukrainian people. He said the only people you can
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: get to fight are conscripts that you force to the
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: front line. So that's insulting the troops. That's insulting the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Ukrainians that have been fighting and saying they don't want
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to be there. They're only there because Zelensky made them
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: go there. When in fact, Putin is the one that
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: conscripts people. Putin is the one that did the mobilization.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: And so we can talk later about whether Zelensky aired
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: tactically here, but I have a great deal of empathy
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: for what he had to go through.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, Trump being offended by reality and people
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: insulting Zelensky is going to be a theme of this thing.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: The press court even gets in on the action, but
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a minute. But let's keep
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: rolling that clip.
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: your military?
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And do you think that it's respectful to come to the.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: Oval Office of the United States of America and attack
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: your country? A lot of questions.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Let's start from the beginning. First of all, during the war,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: everybody has problems.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Even you.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: But you have a nice ocean.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: And don't feel now. But you will feel it in
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: God bless.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: You don't know that.
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: God bless.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: God bless.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: You will not have a war. Don't tell us what
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. Because you're
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: in no.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Position to dictate that. Remember this.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: You will feel influenced.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you, you will feel influenced. From the very
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: beginning of the war.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: From the very beginning of the war, Mr. Brown, I
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: was arrested.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: With us, you start having cards.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Right now, you're playing cards.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: of people.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: You're gambling with World War III.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: You're gambling with World War III.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: this country, that's back to you.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Far more than a lot of people said they should have.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Have you said thank you once this entire meeting? No,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: in this entire meeting, have you said thank you?
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And the president.
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: J.D.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Vance just gave up the whole game there. They are
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: offended by a campaign campaign period visit by Zelensky to Pennsylvania,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: which was perceived as an endorsement or support for Joe Biden. Geez, Ben,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I wonder why Zelensky might have thought he'd be better
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: off if Joe Biden was president or Kamala Harris was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: president and not Donald Trump as he's lecturing him in
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: the Oval Office about how he's gambling and about to
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: start World War III.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot in that one too, Tommy. I mean,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: first of all, Boy, to say that Zelensky is the
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: one that's gambling with World War III when Putin is
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: the one that invaded the country. I mean, the Ukrainians
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: didn't want, they don't want to be in this war.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And Trump is pulling out support for NATO, which has
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: prevented World War III.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like what's so fucking bonkers about this is like the,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: all the things that Trump and Van Say presuppose that
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Zelensky somehow wants this war and wanted this war when
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: he was just invaded by Russia. They're the ones that
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: raised the risks of World War III. Then to hear
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: them lecture him about needing to thank Mr. Trump. First
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: of all, Zelensky always thanks the United States repeatedly. He's
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: done it, by the way, since Trump has been president,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: expressed gratitude for the support the United States supplies. Even though,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: by the way, Donald Trump is not the one that
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: provided that support. It was Joe Biden and the United
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: States Congress on a bipartisan basis. But they want Zelensky
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: to behave like a Trump staffer. Thank you, Mr. Trump,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: for being such a great president. And they don't do
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: this to other leaders you know they don't hector other
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: leaders like this in the oval office they you know
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: they they they they're picking on him they're like schoolyard
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: bullies picking on a small injured person to impress their friends.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: And it's like three on one you can hear all
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: of them like chatting and be like yes you were
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: mean yes you did say that it literally sounds like
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: a schoolyard taunting and.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: He didn't insult when did he insult did you do
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: you know what they're referring because he shouldn't insult the u.s
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: he just explained facts facts are insulting to Trump is mad.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It's earlier on in this Oval Office meeting because this
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: was a very, very long pool spray. And just to
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: give folks a little context, what usually happens is the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: two leaders go into the Oval Office. They sit down.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: You bring the pool, the White House press pool, in
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: for like a minute or two. Sometimes there's a shadow question.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: They take photos and then they get them the hell
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: out of there. They have the real meeting. There was
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: supposed to be a lunch and then there was supposed
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: to be a press conference. Trump has started doing this
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: thing where he takes like 45 minutes worth of questions
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: during the pool spray. And then they do the press
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: conference just because he needs to be on TV again.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: All the time. So what you didn't hear that happened
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: earlier was, you know, Trump's entire shtick about Ukraine is
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: the war never would have happened if he was president.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: But Zelensky, when he was walking through all the times
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the Russians broke ceasefire agreements, talks about how the Russians
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: were occupying Ukraine throughout the duration of the Trump presidency
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and people were getting killed during the Trump presidency. And
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Trump really didn't like that because it undercut his whole
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: fucking argument that none of this would have happened if
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: I were in charge. Because he acts like he wasn't
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: actually the president for four years and isn't responsible for anything.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he needs everything to be about himself and
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: not about like the reality of what is happening in
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: the world, particularly a reality that is counter to his
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: narrative and inconvenient to him in any way, shape or form.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And Zelensky is this guy who's only trying to share facts,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: you know, and each time he does... they act as
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: if he has personally offended them and come down even
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: harder on the guy. And by this point in the clip,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: they're just picking on him. And to say that because
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: he's not kissing Trump's ass, he's insulting the whole country,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: just shows you what Donald Trump's view of this country is,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that he is the only thing that matters. He, the leader, he,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Der Fuhrer, is the only guy, he's the symbol of
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: the nation or something. It's It's absolutely grotesque. And what
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: we can see here is like little Marco Rubio on
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the couch, like shrinking deeper and deeper into his seat.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: JD Vance is like sitting on the edge of his seat.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: He's the happiest little boy in town because he was
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: allowed to go to the big boy meeting and say something.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: And Marco Rubio, every photo of Marco Rubio that I've
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: seen in the context of these these Russia Ukraine talks,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: he looks like his soul is is drifting out of
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: his body in that moment. He looks like he's dead inside.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: He knows what is happening is so profoundly wrong. But
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: he just sits there fucking silently and then afterwards tweets
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: an attaboy at the boss. And look, there's all these
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: reports that Rubio is like the secretary of state in
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: name only and actually has a bunch of little kind
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: of nagas supplicants who who work for him on the
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: org chart but are actually running the show over at state.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: So who knows? Yeah. Let's listen to the rest of
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: this clip.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: Who's trying to save your country?
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: It's going to be a very hard thing to do
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: business like this.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: I tell you, say thank you. Except that there are
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: disagreements and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: We know that you're wrong.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: But you see, I think it's good for the American
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: people to see what's going on.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I think it's very important.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: That's why I kept this going so long.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Trump ends the meeting later and says, this is going
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: to be great television. So again, giving up the game.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: This is all about politics for them. They don't care
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: about Ukraine. They don't actually care about anything Zelensky said.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: This is just domestic politics.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And they're just, you know, like, what is he
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: wrong about? You know, like nothing that Zelensky said. We can, again,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: we'll talk later about like what his tactical decision making was,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: but like Nothing he said was wrong. And J.D. Vance
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. He's not
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: some expert on like Ukraine and Russia. He's just some
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: guy who listened to some podcasts and tries to put.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Sorry about that.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: All of you people. This is YouTube.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: This is YouTube. Yeah, exactly.
• 16:59
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• 21:21
  Speaker 2: It's worth noting, like, the meeting.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Didn't start terribly again like we said there was like
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: a 30 minute pool spray there was actually some like
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: kind of chummy moments let's just play a quick clip
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Because europe really helped president trump said that they made
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: less support but they have our friends and they are
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: our very supportive uh partners they really gave a lot
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: you spread they really they did a lot but they
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: gave much less no Much less.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So right there, Zelensky is talking about contributions from the
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Europeans to Ukraine. This is like the third time in
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: a week that Trump has been corrected in the Oval
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Office about the European contribution to the Ukrainian side. Remember
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: in the meeting with French President Emmanuel Macron, Macron grabs
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: his arm and is like, actually, no, 60% of what
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: we gave them was a grant, not a loan. Keir
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Starmer made the same point yesterday, I believe Thursday and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: then Zelensky today. But, you know, it was kind of like, look,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Zelensky had a look on his face where, as you said, Ben,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: he looked exhausted by the end of this conversation. He
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: looks like he wants to cry, but it didn't start
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: terribly like things just escalated and got worse and worse.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it felt like that that that. J.D. Vance
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: and Trump wanted some version of this outcome. They didn't
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: want to go exactly like this, but they wanted to
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: smack him around and say he was ungrateful and tell
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: him to thank Mr. Trump. And again, what I find
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: so appalling about it, but it's interesting, we have to
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: understand this, is that, you know, Trump's, you know, the
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: headline in foreign policy is he's completely switched sides. And
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: it's now the U.S. and Russia against Europe and Ukraine
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: and the U S wanting to be in this alignment
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: with big autocratic countries, Russia, China, the Gulf, et cetera.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: But it also mirrors Tommy, like what Trump does at home.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Like he doesn't really pick on people's own size. You know, it's, it's,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: it's undocumented people. It's trans people. You know, it's a
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: country that's been invaded like Ukraine. It's people in Gaza
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: that he's dunking on and posting, you know, weird videos about,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you know, the Riviera that he's going to build. This
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: guy is not tough. Tough people would pick on Putin.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Tough people would not be terrified of Putin and beating
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: the shit out of Zelensky on television and then telling
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: him it's his fault. And guess who sees that? The
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: world sees that. MAGA base will be like, oh, this
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: is great. Look at Trump. Own the libs because they
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: think Zelensky is I mean your point about Pennsylvania, it's
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: not just– you gave up the game on that. But
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: they also equate like Ukraine with kind of libs or something,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: which is super weird by the way because it used
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: to be the opposite.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, then Obama was weak because he didn't give enough
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: support to the Ukrainians. That was the talking point forever.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Now Obama looks like a much different light compared to Trump.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: But I mean– the rest of the world doesn't live
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: in the megaverse. You know, the rest of the world
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: lives in reality and they're just seeing like a bully
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: picking on someone smaller to make himself look tough.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: So again, this was supposed to be the pool spray
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: before the lunch meeting, before the press conference, the Trump
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: people ended up canceling the rest of the itinerary. And,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the, according to the readouts they're giving to
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Fox news or whoever else, It sounds like Rubio and
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Mike Waltz basically kicked Zelensky out of the White House
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: and said, come back when you're ready to cut a
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: peace deal. They were supposed to sign some sort of
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: rare earths agreement. The text of this agreement has evolved
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: so much over time. Initially, it was reported as just
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: like an extortion, the U.S. demanding half of Ukraine's rare
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: earths or up to $ 500 billion worth of rare earths.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Now it seems like There would just be some sort
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of joint effort to mine these rare earths and put
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: it into a fund that would then be used for
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Ukrainian reconstruction. But the U.S. would have some sort of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: oversight over it and maybe get some of the profits.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that we'll ever know. Caitlin Collins from
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: CNN asked a very smart question during this press conference,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: which is that something like 40 percent of Ukraine's rare
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: earths are in the Far East. So in Russian occupied areas,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: she was like, are you going to be able to
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: get access to those rare Who will protect those? There's
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: been a lot of reporting today about how the mining
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: process for these rare earth elements is unbelievably energy and
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: labor intensive and incredibly dirty. And setting up a giant
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: lithium mine, for example, can take a decade. So the
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: idea that this is some sort of immediate U.S.-Ukrainian cooperation
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: on the ground that serves as a de facto deterrent
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: from the Russians invading is just like sort of nonsensical
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: on its face if you actually understand the details. But Ben,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know that we'll ever need to know the
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: details of this one because it doesn't seem like it's happening.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the whole purpose of this was to, again,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: further make Trump look tough. Like he got Ukraine to
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: bend to his will and give us access to these
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: rare earth materials that, as you said, take, you know,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: these would not be mined in Trump's presidency. And if
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: and when they are. So what? What is it? What
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: on earth does this have to do with ending the war?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with ending the war. It's
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: not a security guarantee to Ukraine to say that like
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: there might be some joint ventures down the line to
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: get some rare earth materials that Trump probably doesn't even
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: know what they do. You know, I mean, so this
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: always felt like this kind of weird facade. And I
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: do just, you know, to put a point on it,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: like Waltz and Rubio. for them to be going along
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: with this charade, like fucking, you know, Ribbentrop, the Nazi
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: foreign minister, like they, these guys were talking tough about
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Ukraine like a year ago. They were, you know, this
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: is what happens when you sell your soul to Donald Trump,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: you know? And if there's one thing that Zelensky's visit
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: achieved is it, it exposed the full truth of what
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: he's dealing with.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, like there is sort of a, there is a,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: there is a national security challenge for the U.S., which
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: is that I think China has something like 70% of
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: the rare earth elements supply. They also have something like
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: 90% of the refining capacity. So there could be a
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: scenario where the US really needs access to these rare
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: earth minerals. But like you just said, I mean, this
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: is like a decade long process. And Ben, I remember
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: having a very similar conversation about You know, people saying
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: there are massive deposits, like trillion dollar deposits in Afghanistan
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: that none of those have been mined even as of today.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: So all of this just seems like very vaporware.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: It's a huge issue. But ironically, Tommy, I know a
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: lot about this issue from the prism of climate change,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: because these are critical to battery technologies, to solar panels
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: and the Chinese wind turbines. And the reality is, if
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: you really cared about it, you wouldn't dismantle USAID. because
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: you'd be trying to be in Africa where there's a
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: ton of these critical minerals. In South America, there are
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: a ton of critical minerals in places that are not
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: currently invaded by Russia. Like, you know, making agreements with Chile,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: which has a lot of these deposits, would be a
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: lot more rational than saying we're going to solve our
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: rare earth materials by getting mining rights in Ukraine, you know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: that has currently been attacked. It's purely for show for Trump.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yep, purely for show. Okay, well... Like we mentioned earlier,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Zelensky wasn't just insulted by J.D. Vance and Rubio and
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Waltz and Trump. There were a bunch of moron reporters
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: in the Oval Office because, as you might have heard,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: the White House is taking over control of the White
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: House press pool. And instead of having like real serious
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: journalists in there from places like Reuters or Bloomberg, they're
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: swapping in right wing zealots who are just their little propagandists.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: So Let's hear an example of what kind of questions
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: those people ask.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Do you ever why don't you wear a suit? Why
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: don't you wear a suit?
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: You're the highest level in this country's office and you
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: refuse to wear a suit.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Just want to see if you do own a suit.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Problems.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: A lot of Americans have problems with you.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: I don't have such. I will wear a costume after
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: this war will finish.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, maybe something like yours, yes.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe something better, I don't know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: We will see.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Maybe something cheaper than that.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: That was a reporter named Brian Glenn. He's the chief
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: White House correspondent for Real America's Voice. There was a
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: reporter from One America, which is another right wing outlet, Ben,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: that asked, what gave you the moral courage and conviction
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: to lead on a peace agreement? Apparently, a reporter from
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: TASS snuck into the Oval Office pool spray. For those
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: who don't know, TASS is a Russian state owned news
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: agency that founded in the 1900s. So interesting move to
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: let the Russian state-owned media, you know, the country bombing
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: the country you're meeting with into the Oval Office spray. Apparently,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the White House staff said he snuck in there somehow.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: It doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their security.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure how you sneak into the Oval Office,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: but I don't know, man. Like, this is bleak shit.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, first of all, the Real America News
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: guy was probably slobbering over Elon Musk in the cabinet
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: meeting yesterday when he was not wearing a suit, was
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: wearing a T-shirt, was wearing a hat and was like
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: amped up on God knows what, standing up, jumping up
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: and down, being a fucking lunatic. Right. So why is
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Elon Musk allowed to like, you know, in this guy's view,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: denigrate the White House, the Oval Office by not wearing
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: a suit? I mean, like, can you imagine can you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: imagine being Ukrainian and looking at this? I mean, Zelensky
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: dresses like that in solidarity with people in his country.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You know, he wears military-colored clothes to express solidarity with
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: troops who are fighting the front line. You don't have
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to think that's a great, you know, sartorial choice. But
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: to fucking just pick on him, what danger has that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: guy ever been under? Zelensky could have been assassinated in
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: the early days of the war. Like, there was incredible
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: reports of all kinds of bounties on his head. And
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: this kind of complete fucking loser from Real America News,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: is picking on him to make himself look good in
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: front of Mr. Trump and whoever his audience is. And
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: then the TASS thing, let's just be very clear here,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: like Russian state media, which I think was like sanctioned
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: or designated.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I know, I was trying to remember that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: They were definitely like a part of some, you know,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: one of the things the Biden administration rolled out. But
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Russian state media is allowed in the Oval Office and
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: the Associated Press, the wire service for more American newspapers
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: than anybody else is not. because they won't call it
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: the Gulf of America. Like, this is where we are, people. Like,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: we are in a reality in which Russian state media
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: and Russian propaganda is in the Oval Office berating a
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: democratically elected leader of a country under attack, you know,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: who's being insulted for not wearing a suit. I mean,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: we just have to get our minds around this thing
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: because we're only six weeks into it.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know like American politics are so unserious. It's
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: so frustrating. But this moment really drove home for me.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I just I can't imagine, you know, this is an
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: existential meeting for the people of Ukraine and for Zelensky, literally. And,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: you know, suddenly he's getting berated about his appearance. I mean,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: it's just like truly outrageous. So, Ben, I mean, the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: big picture question is like, where do we go from here?
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Because this meeting was a disaster. I mean, I'm sure
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Zelensky will try to kind of mop it up. He's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: doing a TV appearance with Brett Baer on Fox News
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: later tonight that I think he knows will be a
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: sort of a direct line back into the Oval Office
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: to communicate with Trump. It's been interesting to watch this week.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: You had Macron, Keir Starmer and Zelensky all have White
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: House meetings and then all go on Brett Baer's show.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: It's become kind of the car wash equivalent. Like when
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: you go to ESPN, you do like a bunch of
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: shows now. Brett Baer is a car wash. But yesterday,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Putin was speaking publicly. He was praising the new U.S.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: administration for, quote, pragmatism, a realistic worldview, discarding many of stereotypes,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: so-called rules, and messianic ideological cliches of their predecessors. You
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: had Dmitry Medvedev cheering and tweeting in English about how
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: great it was to see Zelensky treated like shit. And
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: then yesterday, when Trump was meeting with Keir Starmer, the
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: British prime minister, Trump refused to say that the U.S.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: would backstop a European peacekeeping force. if one were to
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: be put in Ukraine after some sort of peace deal.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: He also seemed to once again, suggest the US wasn't
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: fully committed to Article Five, when he was asked about it,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: he was like, the Brits, they don't need much help,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: they can take care of themselves. And then at one point,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: he said to Keir Starmer, could you take on Russia
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: by yourselves? You know, like kind of joking, but not really.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, pretty dark, man. Like, where do
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: you think that we go from here?
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Again, I think if there's any utility in this, you know,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: because you might say, Zelensky should have just shut his
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: mouth and taken it and then tried to sign his
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: rare earths deal. But actually, I think it's something useful
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: in just surfacing this and just clarifying this is where
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: we are. We've learned that Trump has flipped 180 degrees
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: to the Russian side. We've learned that his approach to
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: peace is to bully Ukraine and ask nothing of Russia.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: We've learned that the Republican Party in the United States
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: has completed the process of not having any spine and
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: capitulating to Trump's foreign policy. And so what does it
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: mean going forward if I'm Europe and Ukraine? I'm saying
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: we need to develop a shared position for this war
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: that is separate from the United States of America and
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: actually sees that this is the United States and Russia
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: sitting on one side of the negotiating table and Europe
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: and Ukraine sitting on the other. And as dark and
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: as extreme as that sounds, I think that's where we are.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Because Ukrainians, by the way, don't have to stop fighting.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: There were reports early in the invasion when Russia... thought
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: they were going to roll over Kyiv, that they were
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: going to have a guerrilla warfare type approach. So the
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Ukrainians don't have to agree to Trump's terms that he
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: strikes with Moscow. I think the Ukrainians need to figure
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: out with the Europeans, what are their positions? What are
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: they insisting on? They're going to have to give a
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: bunch of stuff, including territory. But what can they insist
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: on in terms of a credible ceasefire line, essentially? And
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: then what is a peace force that has... British and
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: French troops. There was an interesting comment from Turkey that
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: they might get involved with troops on the ground. What
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: is a credible European force that can provide some security
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: guarantee and some presence there? And then how do you
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: build a European defense and foreign policy that is totally
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: separate from the United States? Because the United States has
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: switched sides. And I wish that wasn't the case, but
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I think that's where we are. And I don't know
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: that just signing some dumb rare earth thing is going
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: to make Trump be nicer to them. It's not. So
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Figure out your own interests and act accordingly. It's what
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: all of us are going to have to do in
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: these Trump years.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, the more we learned about the rare
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: earths agreement, the more it just seemed like nothing. You know,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: like initially it just sounded like complete extortion. And now
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what it was. I do think,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: you know, to your question, we should ask, like, did
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Zelensky screw up? I think I give him like all
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: like I have so much sympathy for him, but I
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: think the answer is kind of, of course, he did.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, challenging J.D.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: Vance.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Getting into that pissing match. We can look at inputs.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: In DC, people look at inputs too much and they
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: don't look at outputs. The end result of that meeting
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: was a fucking disaster for Zelensky personally, politically, and for
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: his country. So obviously he should have approached it differently.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I think the challenge is he's got politics. Trump's got politics, right?
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: He's not going to walk in there and make a
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: bunch of sort of rhetorical concessions to Putin before negotiations
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: actually begun, a negotiation that he's not part of, by
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the way. And Trump just wouldn't broke any dissent um
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: or or you know actually like he mocked uh zelensky
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: at one point for saying i don't want to cease
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: fire but zelensky's point was like not that i don't
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: want this the fighting to stop he's like i don't
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: want to cease fire where putin then breaks it over
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: and over again and reinvades my country so i mean
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: look yeah we'd be like i think dishonest if we
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: said um that zelensky had played that thing perfectly but
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: uh or even remotely well but i do think It
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: was a setup for domestic consumption here in the US.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that by any measure, tactically, you don't
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: get into a fight with J.D. Vance in the Oval Office.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: You don't allow yourself to be humiliated by the President
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: of the United States to that extent. But I'm not
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: saying this to give him credit because I don't think
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: it was a strategy. I think the utility in it
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: is we know what we're dealing with now, right? Like
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: we have... The Hegseth, like laying down of terms without
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: consulting Ukraine and Europe, in which they surrender all their
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: territory and can't be NATO. We have the J.D. Vann
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: speech in Munich endorsing the European far right. We've got
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Trump calling Zelensky a dictator. And now we have this.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: And so there can be new illusions that somehow some
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: committee to save America is going to, or Marco Rubio
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: or whoever, or Lindsey Graham is going to the Oval
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Office and convince Trump to suddenly get tough on the Russians. Like,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So I'm not saying that Zelenci was like playing some
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: chess and, you know, outed this. I'm saying he messed
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: up by getting baited into this, but there may be
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: something worthwhile that comes out of just clarifying, okay, this is,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: this is actually where we are, you know? And, and
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I can tell you like from, you know, having been
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: in Munich and, you know, different Europeans, like this is
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: what the Trump people are like behind closed doors too.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: You know, like from what I hear, like, they're not,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: they're not just performing for the cameras. Like they, this is,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: This is who they are. And so now he's got
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: to go back. And I was thinking too, Tommy, like,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: you know, he made that comment about like, I will
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: step down. if it brings peace. Like he's got to
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: be also thinking about that, you know, not stepping down now,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: but like, you know, like what is, what, like he's tired.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: He's clearly a lightning rod to Trump because Trump wrongly,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: unfairly sees him as some guy who's like aligned with
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: things that Trump doesn't like, like democracies and Europeans and,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and internationalists in this country. And, and so I think
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: he's got to stand up to Trump, uh, and try
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: to get the best deal for his people and from
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: the Europeans. And then, you know, that's, that's his mission.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And then he's done.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: You're right though. This is really tough for Zelensky because
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: he showed unbelievable, incredibly inspiring courage and, in the very
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: early days of that war, and by just sort of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: like force of personality, brought the entire world to his side,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: helped rally support in the US, in Europe, everywhere, like
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: public opinion, in capitals, everywhere. And if he is seen
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: now as having kind of lost that touch, I mean,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the shine faded during the Biden administration when
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of Ukrainians felt like they were getting some
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: of what they wanted, but getting it late and getting
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: it slow and not getting enough of it. But this meeting,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I think, is probably going to, I mean, maybe it'll
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: rally people to his side, but it might also make
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: them wonder whether he's the right person to be the
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: interlocutor with the United States when they're so reliant on us.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: So very challenging political moment for him personally, as well
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: as for the country.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I'm him, I'm going to take a
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: breath and I'm going to talk. I mean, I honestly, frankly,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: I guess you got to do the Brett Baier car wash,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: but he can't just go on there and grovel. and
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Brett Baer will be an asshole. As a side note too, Tommy,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: do you remember people would go to China, they have
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: to do CCTV, the state media. Fox News has become
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the CCTV of the US. That's pretty dark too. That's
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: not normal people. There's a lot of other people that
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you could do interviews with, but they know that they
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: have to talk to Brett Baer and Fox News because
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: that's who Trump wants them to talk to.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: We'll be watching.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: So I will, you know, I'm sure he'll kind of
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: recalibrate this a little bit, but he can't fold or capitulate.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And that's also not in his character. And I think
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: you go back, you talk to Macron, you talk to Starmer,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: you talk to Mertz and Schultz and the Germans. If
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: you're Zelensky and you kind of go back to the
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: drawing board, OK, like what what's our position? Our being
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Europe and Ukraine and this negotiation with the U.S. and Russia.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Dark day.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Historic day.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One of many we've been covering recently. Well, I'm
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: very glad that we decided to do this. I had
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: no idea how horrendous it was going to be, but
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: great to get to talk to you, Ben.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I thought we'd be talking about like a rare earths agreement.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: I did too.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Trying to explain why that was important.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Subscribe to Pod Save the World if you're not already.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I'd really appreciate it. And we'll be out with a
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: new Pod Save America on Tuesday.