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Why ADHD Writers Need Experimentation, Not More Rules · No Mess, No Magic

• Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the No Mess, No Magic Podcast of Monica Hay, a podcast for writers. Today I have a dear friend, Suzanne, joining me. Hello, Suzanne and welcome. Susanne: Hi, it's so good to see you again, Monica. Monica Hay: Yes. it's very special for us to be chatting because we're on the same time zone. Susanne: It is magical. Mm hmm. Monica Hay: It is magical. I love everybody who I am colleagues with and get to chat with, but there's something nice about not being a six to nine hour time difference with the people I talk to. Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: so Suzanne is the world's first ADHD writing coach for adults, a role her clients handed her rather than one she went looking for. Five years and hundreds of writers later, her line hasn't changed. ADHD writers Aren't failing at writing, the standard advice is failing them, which I love that bio. So today we're gonna talk about kind of a few different things. I feel like we have a lot of different topics, but first we're gonna talk about ADHD and writing, and then we're gonna talk about a really cool event that Suzanne has coming up. Do you wanna tell us about the event real quick? Susanne: I want to tease that it is awesome and that Monica is going to be there. Monica Hay: I will be there. Yes. Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: I love it. Okay. I love having people who specialize in ADHD in the pod, because most of my audience relates to ADHD or or autism, some kind of neurodivergence. Not everyone, but a lot of them. And I want to ask you a couple of different questions about this topic. I loved something that you mentioned that was like you compared writing a writing project to your living room. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: So you see everyone else's living room has been cleared up for company, but we experience our own in all of us everyday mess. And this feels Susanne: I just Monica Hay: particularly funny to me because I have a friend coming to visit Wednesday. And so Susanne: Yeah, yeah. Monica Hay: I did just do a huge cleanup of my living room. And I love I love this concept that you mentioned because a lot of us, not even just ADHD writers, but a lot of us, we Like you said, we see other people's finished product. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: So we see the clean living room, but we're not seeing the dirty living room. So how does seeing other writers' clean living rooms affect the way we that we see our own process? Susanne: Mm-hmm. I think that I I have this too. Every time people come over, I'm like, I haven't even if my cleaner comes over, I have a cleaner now. It is fantastic because not everyone loves cleaning as much as you do. I have a cleaner now, and even when she Monica Hay: We talked about this, I forgot. Susanne: even when my cleaner comes over, I'm like, I should have, I should have like tidied up a little bit. I shouldn't have cleaned anything, but I should have tidied up at least a little bit, right? What what will they say? What will they think? So when people come over, your instinct is to present like a clean version. but we forget that other people do the same thing. And I think the effect is that we keep comparing our everyday messes to other people's polished product. So when we read Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Susanne: something online, we don't realize or we read an short story and an anthology. We don't realize that at least three people have edited it. We don't realize that the the friend who is sending you their rough draft probably polished it a little bit before they send it off to you. And that means that you always you only see your own mess. And that means that you compare your own mess to someone else's clean living room all the time. And is it any wonder then that you feel like your work is worse than everybody else's? Monica Hay: Yeah, this is a really interesting phenomenon. I I've I've asked pe people have asked me, 'cause I tell people every book that you see on a shelf in the bookstore or library has been revised and worked on many times, multiple drafts probably. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And we know that logically, but I don't think that we understand it in our soul because Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: we probably haven't seen a lot of rough drafts. Some of us have. I mean maybe if if you work in the industry you have, but most of us aren't seeing a really, really rough, messy draft Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: on a daily basis. Whereas I think It's funny, I talk a lot about how writers need to learn to practice their craft and not expect this like perfect outcome when they write. I don't see that confusion as much in the visual arts or in music. Like musicians don't show up expecting their music to be perfect the first time they do it. Susanne: True. Practice is baked in. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Why isn't it like that in writing, I wonder? Is it because of we only see the fit the polished drafts? Susanne: it might be. It is also we are exposed to so much writing all the time. When you open your social media, you're exposed to writing. When you communicate for work, you check your email or you check your Slack. When like everything is writing. When when I am trying to figure out when I should expect my next zucchinis to grow in my garden, which is probably by the end of this week and I'm super excited. Then I go on Google and I read an article about it. We are so exposed. We Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: are constantly consuming writing in an almost in a way that makes the medium disappear. Whereas Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: for music, you're very intentional about listening to a piece of music. Though I do Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: I do remember last week making the joke to my husband that we should give a a a 10-year-old daughter of some friends a violin to make their life terrible and and very awful because when people start practicing the violin it does sound terrible. And I do think that when you start practicing an instrument, same with trumpet or anything else that requires some skill in order to actually have it produce sound, I do think that with some instruments there is the expectation that it's going to sound immediately like the violin. I play the harp. Harp is really easy just like the piano. It's It's really hard to make good music, but you can just pluck a string and the the sound is perfect, right? And you don't have that with all instruments. So I do think there's some variation. But it might be that because writing is everywhere and there's so much that you're constantly consuming, that your standards are constantly going to be raised. Might be. Just Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: hypothesizing. Monica Hay: Yeah. It's I keep thinking about because my my parents are both artists. My dad's passed away, but he was an artist. My mom's still an artist. And, you know, I would regularly see well, not every day, but my dad would sometimes destroy his pieces that he didn't like. And it's funny because I don't think I ever really saw it as like, I can do that as a writer. Like I can just Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: decide that this isn't very good. But It's interesting that I'm I actually want to ask you, when was the first time you saw a rough draft as a writer? Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: Saw something messy from somebody that wasn't you? Susanne: Right. Well I I think when I started my business in my bio, my bio needs to be updated, clearly, because it's now been six years. When I first started working, someone people would start sending me stuff. And because I was offering also my editing services, I would see drafts that people had quickly put together and needed a quick turnaround on. but that was because I was at that point a professional. I don't think I've ever seen anything. Maybe maybe in grad school people would send me some stuff to to get my feedback before they sent it off, but that was never unedited. They already did a few rounds of revisions before they felt comfortable sharing it. Monica Hay: Yeah, I think that was because I've I've seen a lot of messy drafts in the professional realm as well. Not as much before that. I I have had friends, of course, send me stuff, but it was never something so messy as some of what my drafts look like when I write my drafts. I write zero drafts typically, so it'll be very, very messy. It'll be incoherent. I don't do that as much for short stories because they're faster to write, but for novels. They're incoherent, the first draft. Susanne: Perfect. Monica Hay: And and yeah, it's because I I try not to go back and revise because I used to be the person that would when I wrote a first draft, you know, I would write it and then something would change and I go back and put all the information in the the rest of the draft so that I could have everything update. But then that would happen throughout the entire book and I wasn't finishing anything because I was just kept revising. And Susanne: Mm-hmm. Right. Monica Hay: so I was like, okay. I'm just gonna write incoherent things to get the draft done. And I have not shared anything like that with a friend before. Maybe we should Susanne: Mm mm. Monica Hay: all like share each other's extremely incoherent draft so that we feel more more you know Susanne: Yes. You know, there's there's something in the in the hard sciences like physics where they have like a repository where people are just putting their initial ideas and their rough drafts that aren't even close to publication yet, so that the community can give feedback and contribute and maybe we should do something like that for writers. It's like Wattpad, but Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: then with the intention of it being bad. Monica Hay: Yeah, I love that 'cause I think a lot of people would be surprised to see how messy it can get. In one of my courses, I had to get some some courage to do this, but I recorded myself writing a chapter in a zero draft to show people how incredibly incoherent it can be. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And I had the feedback of Monica, I had no idea I could do that. Susanne: That's amazing. Monica Hay: They were like, my god, you met this messy. Cause some people when they think of messy, they just think of some typos. And I'm like, No, it's so much more than that. Susanne: That is incredible. I am sure you ch you have changed lives with that video. I do have a question for you, and I know that this is not usually the way these things go because I am supposed to be interviewed, but I do have a question because I get this so much. How do you make that switch? If you are used to editing as you go, and you are used to not letting it go until it looks at least okay, how do you make that switch to it doesn't even have to be coherent? Monica Hay: Yeah, I had a few things I had to do. It took me a long time. I what I did was I and there's actually a book on this from Jessica Brody, I believe it's from page one to done. She talks about zero drafting, which if you're listening, it's a really cool book on how to set up a zero draft for success. What she recommends, and this is what I do, is when I go Into my zero draft and I make it co incoherent, I leave myself comments for future me so Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: that I can go back. And that almost gives my brain permission that at the moment, like when I'm actually writing, I think like, how am I gonna fix this? But then when I leave the comment and I give myself, I actually give myself stage direction sometimes. I'll say, like, this is what Susanne: to give myself to something like Monica Hay: I was thinking, and this is what I'm writing, and this is what I think will need to happen in the future. That helps me know that future me is gonna be okay. Susanne: That's all you guess. Monica Hay: That's what helped me, honestly. and you don't necessarily have to do that, but that's how I kinda got past the like, my god, this is gonna be a hot mess. Yeah, that's what I did. But I also like It's a practice of I guess sometimes I just will literally tell myself while I'm writing like this is going to be a hot mess and that is the entire point because otherwise the book won't get written. It won't come out. Yeah. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. My favorite my favorite saying about that is writing the first or the zero draft is like shoving sand into a bucket, and only in the second and third draft are you making a cast a sand castle out of it. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: Exactly. Exactly. And I even see that with my own, like I wrote a short story this weekend, which I don't really do a zero draft a short story because it was like 10 pages, right? So it's a bit different because it's easier to like read it from fa the back to front fast. But even when, you know, I wrote the first draft and I was like, okay, that's pretty good. And then I looked back and I was like, man, I'm using a lot of passive voice. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And I had to like change so much of it, even though it felt like it was polished, but it really wasn't. Anyway, I love that Yeah. I love looking back on the process and just noticing what what shifts and how experimentation changes and things like that. And that brings me to another Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: thing you mentioned. You use this idea that a thousand writers means a thousand and one ways to write. How does someone actually experiment their way toward their own process instead of endlessly trying new things or new pr new productivity systems. Like how does that Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: look for an ADHD writer? Susanne: I would never have juxtaposed those two. I think that reinventing the whole system every couple of months can be your system. Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: I think that the way I see it, experimentation is amazing. I think experimentation is wonderful. And one of the reasons why I think it is wonderful, and especially for ADHDers, is because we are so incredibly motivated by novelty. Now, if our brains love something that is new, why are we looking for something that never has to change or be reinvented? Why don't we accept Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: that novelty is our jam and that we can reinvent the wheel every few months if we want to? Now, if Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: that is something that you can accept, which I think you should Because I am pretty sure that every single ADHDer who is listening to this podcast or or watching this podcast has has a very large graveyard of discarded projects, discarded systems, discarded apps and tools, maybe fidget toys. Things that were so exciting and so amazing those first few weeks, and you thought they were going to absolutely change your life. And then after a few weeks, you stopped using them and you felt that you were such a terrible, terrible person because you can stick with anything. Now, if if we accept that that is just your reality, and it's not that you haven't found your system yet, but this constant finding of new things and this constant excitement about new tools and new strategies and new ways of doing things is the way that you thrive, then the way that that has serious implications. One, you can stop feeling like you're an awful human every couple of weeks, which should be its own reward. two, it means that you no longer think this system is going to change my life. So let me dedicate the next week to setting it up. Perfectly so that it will be able to support and sustain me for the next 20 years. So you're going to also Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: lose a lot less time setting up new systems that are only there to serve you for a little while. So my idea is Monica Hay: Yep. Susanne: if if for the price of this tool, I I had this conversation once with a with a novelist who said, I I found this whiteboard online. And I can't stop thinking about it and it is amazing and it will make me feel so good, but I can never stick with anything. So I shouldn't get it. And I said, Well, if for the price of that whiteboard you would get two weeks of unlimited possibility, creativity, motivation, focus, enthusiasm, would you would you pay me that price? And she said, Yeah, in a heartbeat. I said, Then why don't you buy this whiteboard for yourself? Just so that you have two incredibly productive and exciting and joyful writing weeks. What's more, Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: and this is one more thing that feels like a problem with ADHD, but I think is a superpower. I don't think ADHD is a superpower. I do think that we ADHDers have the magical superpower of forgetfulness. And that means that after a couple of months, this thing that you got bored with is going to feel new again. Monica Hay: Fair. Susanne: So I think that if you instead of trying to fight this this it this this instinct to keep trying out new things and to to figure out how it works for you and to have fun with it, instead of fighting it because you have to stick with something and it has to be serious and it has to serve you for the rest of your life, instead if you accept the way that your brain works. You will lose less time setting systems up, you will beat yourself up a whole lot less, and you will actually give yourself the opportunity to experience the joy of a new tool. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. I'm curious what some tools that you use are. Do you use Scrivener or something else? Word Susanne: Hmm. Monica Hay: word, etc. Susanne: You have to remember that I don't actually write. Well, I have written a book which is currently sitting on my computer, and I should definitely send it to a publisher, as I have been telling myself for the last two years. But I wrote that completely in Microsoft Word. Monica Hay: Nice. Susanne: I am very old school. I don't like Scrivener. I know it is a radical Monica Hay: Fair. Susanne: thing to say, but I opened it once and never again. I it is not my thing. My fave favorite tool for organizing notes and the the tool that kept me on track is Notion, which is Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: very it goes against everything I've just said. I spent two weeks setting it up. the beauty of Notion and and l similar tools is that there's so much flexibility. That I've actually been using it for the last three years, but make it feel new by constantly making changes. So I didn't I did I didn't envision three years ago how I was going to use it today. It's just the tool has grown with me. Monica Hay: Yeah. I used to use Notion and I think it might have been t about two years ago when I got fed up with it because how what was happening? I think I was trying to make a can ban board. So for those of you who haven't heard of this, it's it's where you kinda have different columns of different some people would say it's a to do list, but you can create however whatever you want on Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: there. And I have a canban board. on Trello for my drafts where I put in like every column will be like act one or something like that, act two, whatever it might be. And then I'll have Susanne: We will bring and also think. Monica Hay: scenes on on the cards. And I was trying to create a Kanban board and it wasn't letting me add or delete columns easily. And I was like, what is happening? And this was a long time ago. So it might have changed. Susanne: This is a long time ago. So it might have been Monica Hay: It's probably changed since then. And now I just use like Google Docs for the organization, but I also use Scrivener for for my own practice. Scrivener is Susanne: Right. Monica Hay: not, you know, a learn it in two seconds necessarily Susanne: Right. Monica Hay: tool. It's it takes a minute. But what I like about it is that it's relatively cheap compared Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: to other tools. Cause the other ones usually have some kind of subscription model. Susanne: Mm-hmm. And especially now that all these tools have been adding AI because I work with a lot of writers, so they always show me around in their latest hyperfixation. And now that that Monica Hay: Right. Susanne: a lot of them have added AI, they've also upped their price, I think. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah, a lot of t I think Notion always has a little AI function. I never I've never clicked it, so I don't even know what it looks like. But at least for Susanne: Mm-hmm. Right. Monica Hay: me, I don't know. If you I don't know if you can turn it off or not. Susanne: Notion is completely free and I have never used the AI. but again, just like Scrivener, it is a steep learning curve. So the the Monica Hay: You think so? Susanne: more functionality you have in a tool, the the longer it takes you to learn it. Monica Hay: Yep. Exactly. Yeah, I l I just love hearing what people do. I the nice thing about for for me that I love about Google Drive is that like everything is saved all the time, which is such a nice feeling. But Susanne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: we will we we digress. I am curious if we look at the opposite of talking about the tools and experimentation. Some of us And this has happened to me where I'll try something and it doesn't work immediately. And then I'm like, okay, this just doesn't work for my brain. But sometimes Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: I'll try it for a few weeks and then it will click and it'll work. So how can we tell the difference between this doesn't work for my brain versus the system just hasn't had enough time to work yet? Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And I I could have some patience with it. Susanne: Well I think that there I would really take one step back and I would look at I would look at your purpose. So if your if your brain doesn't in immediately gravitate towards it and you don't get that initial boost that I described that you get from some new tools, maybe it isn't the right one for your brain. And yes, perhaps if you stick with it four weeks from now, it will work and it will feel good and it will feel like a second skin, but do you have that capacity? That's a that's a question we really need to ask ourselves and it is always at the bottom of our list. Do I have the time and the energy and the bandwidth to actually learn this new tool right now? Or do I maybe have something else that can fulfill the same function? Now The question then becomes, why are you using this tool and is it worth the investment? Monica Hay: it's funny because I think I think some tools, not necessarily tools like Scrivener or something, but some some other types of tools do need a second. So for example, one of my one of the things I help writers with is trying out free writing. And there's different ways of talking about this, but I have people put on a timer, so something like this, for and I always say 10 minutes at least. And people all have if they're really stuck. On the writing and they can't get themselves to say anything on the page. I say, okay, let's turn a timer on and you're just gonna put your hand on the page or laptop, whatever Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: you do, and you're gonna write nonstop. You don't have to write so fast that you hurt yourself, that you hurt your hand, but you're just gonna write nonstop for 10 minutes. And it's funny because I always get a lot of pushback. People are like, that's not gonna work for me. I've tried that before and it didn't work. And sometimes it does take a few days Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: for people to notice the magic in that. Usually the magic doesn't come till like minute eight. And then they start feeling like they can flow. Maybe the first few minutes they're like, I don't know what to say. This is stupid. Why is Monica making me do this? You know, and then they keep they keep Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: writing and and get some more stuff out. But I do kind Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: of think that my the tools that I have used, whether it's scrivener or, you know, a writing tool like that of getting the words out. They take me Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: a second to get used to if I've never done them. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And sometimes I'm impatient. Are you impatient as an ADHD or is it just me? Susanne: in in some ways. When I send an email I'm certainly impatient. I need an answer now. when I have to reply to another email, I am the most patient person in the world. Mm-hmm. No, I completely see what you're saying. And here I think the question, is it worth the investment is absolutely like valid, right? So the question is, do you have any other strategies that can help you break through this writer's block that you're experiencing? You've tried other things before. Now here is Monica who has seen it all, who has helped thousands of ten thousands of of people, and she tells you this might be worth another shot. Just give it some time. Then it might be worth the investment. Because one, you have no alternative, and two, you have a very Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: good reason to believe that in the end it's going to pan out. But in other situations where there are alternatives and you don't necessarily Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: have a reason to believe that it will work out for you, why would you put yourself through Putting all that time and all that energy into trying something just to prove that you have tried. Right? I think we are way too Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Susanne: eager to prove to ourselves that we are not we don't give up, we are not quitters, we are very strong and committed and we can do the hard stuff because we are adults and we are professionals. Whereas People always forget w to ask themselves, why did I start writing in the first place? Because I can Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: pretty much guarantee you that you started writing because it brought you joy. But then when you want to take your writing life seriously, you suck all the joy right out of it. And then you ask yourself, why can't I motivate myself? Right? And that is true for the writing itself. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Susanne: It's true for the project, but it is also tr true for your process. It doesn't have to look like suffering. You don't have to suffer to produce something worthwhile. It it is allowed to be fun. Monica Hay: It's funny, I think I disagree with that. And let me tell you why. Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: Maybe we'll get spicy. Susanne: Mm. Monica Hay: I agree that there's there should be fun in our process. But I also think that writing requires suffering. And I don't mean the like myth type of suffering where you hear like they're an alcoholic and they're miserable. I don't mean that at all. Susanne: Yes. Yes. Monica Hay: I think that myth is annoying. I don't I don't like that myth whatsoever. But what I do notice is that Writing just requires sitting with discomfort. Man, I I I felt this so much yesterday when I wrote my first my short story to send out. I was so uncomfortable because it didn't feel like the writing was good. In my head, I was like, my God, this is so bad. Like there there were so many thoughts. I was thinking, like, Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: am I real writer? Am I good enough? Is this good enough? Should I s should I quit? I had all these thoughts in my head. And that is in an as in a in itself a s a level of suffering of like having these like negative thoughts in your heads. And Susanne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: all writers I think face self-doubt at certain levels on the page. We face rejection, which is a level of suffering. We face we face a lot of things that don't feel easy. And with writing, especially for ADHD years, it's hard to find that reward because Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: sometimes, you know, if you're writing a novel, you're probably not reaching the end in two seconds. It's gonna Susanne: Mm, mm. Monica Hay: it's gonna be a minute. And then you have no guarantee of what happens after. You don't have a guarantee of a publisher or an agent or anything. Like there's no real guarantees in writing. And so I think there is a level of human suffering in the creative process. Yeah. Susanne: Yeah. Yes. Yes. I did not say that there is no discomfort in writing. I would not have a job if there was no discomfort in writing. What I'm Monica Hay: Ha ha ha Susanne: saying is that we are very eager to actively deny ourselves the joy because it's not supposed to be fun, because we are serious writers. Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: So do I Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: Am I telling you to put down your pen or your keyboard or whatever it is that you write with as soon as there's discomfort because you were doing this because it's fun? No, absolutely not. You're not going to get anywhere if you give up at the first sign of discomfort. I'm saying that we stick way too long with things that make us unhappy and that thing with things that make our life harder. And that we spend a lot of time actively telling ourselves. You're not this this is this feels too easy, so clearly it's not good enough. This feels familiar, so clearly Monica Hay: Hm. Yeah. Susanne: it's not good enough. I am having way too much fun with this, so now I need to be serious and I need to take this seriously and I need to make this work. Like there's there's so many moments Monica Hay: Mm. Susanne: where we actively deny ourselves the joy, those are the ones I was talking about. I wasn't saying. Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: that every single moment of writing is supposed to be joyful because that's never going to going to happen. No. Monica Hay: It's funny, have you seen the there's been this reel that goes around I think my friend Emily sorry the trend sh she posted like Life is hard, make it harder, write a book Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: I was like, my God. And yeah, I do think it's funny because when I think about as a kid when I was writing, how joyful it was and how easy it was. And I still have the moments of joy and and play and fun. But yeah, I think the seriousness does seep into a lot of the culture of writing. I think a lot of us get get sucked into how do how do I say this? We take ourselves seriously, which I want I want writers to take themselves seriously in Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: the sense of you believe in yourself. But I also think we take ourselves seriously in the sense of we almost we think serious has to mean a certain thing. Susanne: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And that serious means that I mean when you look at corporate America, right, like when you think about the seriousness of of like a corporation or a job or professional. role a lot of us aren't necessarily thinking of it in terms of fun. It's like you know but I like the idea Susanne: Well my failure. Monica Hay: that we can combine the fun and the series and the play all at once. Susanne: Yeah. You you can be a Monica Hay: And I don't Susanne: serious writer who actually enjoys themselves. Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah, I really wish more of us tried to play. I actually I don't know if they have this where you live, but I've been going to an art cafe on Sundays and just like making stupid shit. I will show you guys if you're watching on YouTube, you will see how terrible this painting is. my god. I know that you've just don't judge me. Susanne: No Monica Hay: I made this the other day. thank you. It's Susanne: I love it. That's incredible. Monica Hay: a hot mess. You can't like really see how fucked up it is from this angle because like you can't quite tell. But it's not good. Like I didn't get the colors right, like I just kind of like messed around. And you know what? It was fun. And I just fucked around and found out. Susanne: There you go. And I think that I think that is Monica Hay: And that's what I want more people to do. Susanne: that extends our conversation about experimentation. Monica Hay: Mm, yes, yeah. Susanne: Find out. I got an email this morning from someone who said, Yeah, I've been writing a lot in the mornings, but the afternoons are really hard for me. now this is happening in my life and this is happening in my life. What do you think? Should I go home from from work to to write at home? Or maybe that would actually make things harder? Or should I do this? Should I do that? I said, why don't you try? We can we can like Talk about this all day, every day, we can we can figure out how we think things might play out and what might or might not work. Why don't you just try it out? In the coming week, just go home after lunch and and see if it makes you more productive in the afternoons. If not, okay, then the next week you don't go home after lunch. Right? Maybe you try to add an extra hour in the morning, see how that works. Why don't we just try out? Why don't why do we need to know how things will play out before we even get started? Doesn't that take the fun out of the whole process as well? So yes, fun experimenting and just tr just play around and find out. I will do the more PG version. The less PG version. Monica Hay: Yeah, I think a lot of us a lot of us don't do it because we don't they don't wanna waste time. You know, they're they think it's it's time wasting. I hear that a lot. People Susanne: Yes. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: are like, but I wanna you know, we think of our words as precious and we don't Susanne: Yes. Monica Hay: wanna waste words on something that won't get published. And Susanne: Yeah. And then you spend a whole lot of time just trying to force yourself or waiting to make the decision or and you still lose. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Susanne: let me tell you one more story before we move on. So I once worked with a an amazing novelist. She was she was fantastic. she actually had made one mistake and that is that her her latest novel was a huge overnight success and it ended on a cliffhanger. So she suddenly had a lot of very angry fans who were very anxious for the next story, and that pressure mounted up so that she ended up not being able to write at all. And every single time she logged into social media or opened her email, there were angry letters from fans who felt like they couldn't go another night without knowing how the story ended. In her defense, I have since read the book, and it is a Pretty brutal place to leave your reader. Anyway, Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: good good way to sell the second book though. where were we? Yes. So she found me. she showed up to a session and she said, Look, I don't know what to do anymore. I've been trying to write for three months. I show up to my desk every single day and I just stare at a blanking cursor. I don't know what to do anymore. Because these people are waiting and they are angry. And I need to write the second book because otherwise I'm also going to lose the momentum that I built with the first book. she also felt like she had no time to waste, just like the the people that you just described. And I told her to put this book aside. I said, You've been trying for three months, you can't write, just forget about it. What do you want to write? And she said, Well, I have all these ideas for over new projects, but I've been telling myself that I'm not allowed to work on them yet. Because I haven't finished eating my vegetables. I'm not allowed to have dessert. So I told her just pick anything, anything that your brain wants to play with, and just give it a couple of weeks. See what happens. So she played around with a new idea. it was a novella set in the same universe. She wrote it in two months and published it, and her fans were appeased. And with that, the pressure disappeared, and she could actually write. The sequel to the first book. So she Monica Hay: Nice. Susanne: she had been actively denying herself the joy of starting a new project, one that she was actually excited about, because she first had to do this one thing. Sometimes the thing that you fear is wasting time or wasting precious resources is actually the thing that unlocks and carries over the momentum and the motivation and the excitement of giving yourself just some time to play. Monica Hay: Exactly. That is the perfect story to hammer in that point. Perfect. Susanne: Good. Monica Hay: I love it. I wanna talk about your Basecamp to Brilliance. So Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: you have you did Basecamp to Brilliance last year and you're doing it for this year as well. Can you tell us what Basecamp to Brilliance is? Susanne: Can and I'd love to. Basecamp to Brilliance last year was my five year birthday party for my business. I decided to throw a big, big party and invite all my friends and have a summit for ADHDers who want or need to write. So novelists are welcome, memoirists are welcome. We also had journalists and we had activists who are writing a lot of materials, we had screenwriters and s and and playwrights. So anyone who needs or wants to write with ADHD was welcome, could show up. Monica gave an amazing talk there as well about overcoming writing resistance. there were 15 speakers who all talked about one part of the ADHD and writing experience, and it was so addictive and so exciting and so wonderful that I've decided to do it again this year and make it bigger. So in October, ADHD Awareness Month, we are doing another ADHD, another Basecamp to Brilliance summit for writers with ADHD. And Monica again is speaking, and I'm super excited about that. Monica Hay: Yes, my talk will be on parts work and self compassion, which is one of my favorite things to talk about because most ADHDers I know are not very kind to themselves in our heads. And yeah, a lot of times people are like, What does self-compassion mean? And I'm like, Yeah, most of us have not been told what that even looks like and what that can feel like. we Susanne: Right. Monica Hay: get very used to being mean to ourselves often because the world was mean to us. Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: As a kid when we were struggling. And that definitely was my experience as a child. I remember Susanne: Right. Monica Hay: that some of you might relate to the story, but my I was I was getting into creative writing. I think I might have been in fifth or sixth grade is when I started writing a lot of stories. And my sixth grade Susanne: Okay. Great. Monica Hay: teacher, my English sixth grade teacher, threw Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: my short story in the trash. Mm hmm My history teacher read it to the class with a ton of love and enthusiasm. Susanne: history teacher ready to class. Monica Hay: My English teacher threw it in the trash. Susanne: That is not okay. Monica Hay: No, it's not. whatever. So yeah, when I say like self-compassion and learning to be kind to ourselves, a lot of it is because we did not experience that when we were children. Some of us did experience a lot of kindness and love. My f my family was very kind to me and I was very lucky to have very supportive family and Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: parents. Not everybody has that, of course. And so I think self compassion is A great thing to learn. Susanne: Yeah. And I also think that it's not it's not just that people were mean to us. It is also that their being mean was shown as a strategy to help us. Like Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Susanne: if we if you wanted to motivate a kid when when I grew up and probably also where you grew up too, if you wanted to motivate a kid, then you really bring home to them how important it is that they do it and the consequences of not doing it. including the punishment that you will receive. And no one used kindness as a way to motivate you to clean your room. So this this constant critique and negativity and and was was presented to us as the one surefire way to motivate. And that is I think also something Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: that we have internalized. If I need to motivate myself to do something I don't want to do, I need to be hard on myself. I need to call myself names. Because that is what our caregivers like present it to us as the way to do that, right? I think your talk, your Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. And I Susanne: topic is so important and I'm so, so glad to have it with us. I was really excited when I saw it. Monica Hay: I'm really curious since this is kind of a selfish question of me to ask, because I live in the Netherlands now, which is where you're from. What so in the US it was yeah, it was a lot of what you just said, but how how did they teach you d was it really very similar to the US in the in a Dutch school system where you grew up? It was you know, you you motivate yourself with this kind of mean or this like strategy that ultimately ends up doing the opposite of what they attended. It just doesn't make you feel good and then you don't want to do it. Is that kind of what it looked like when you were a kid? Mm. Susanne: Yeah. I do think that it looks a lot different now. My my sister is a is a teacher and I know that there's been a lot of developments and changes within the within the Dutch school system. But yes, when I when I went to school, absolutely, that's how you did it. Monica Hay: Yeah. I hope it is changing. I really, really hope it's changing all over the world. And I really wanted to ask you this question 'cause I think it could be a really juicy discussion. On your base camp materials is somet something that jumped out at me that said recognition first, equipment second. What does that mean to you? Susanne: Mm. Okay. I have coached ADHD writers for for six years now, and I did not really have a handbook or a course that I can do could do to learn how to coach ADHD writers. So to figure out how to help them, I had to go into the ADHD literature, ADHD books, ADHD social media platforms to figure out, okay, so how are we talking about executive function, how ADHD affects Our ability to motivate ourselves, our ability to start projects and finish them, etc. I had to look at productivity communities online to how to see how they talked about increasing productivity and what tools were working and why. And I had to look at the writing communities where they were talking about writing craft and that kind of stuff. And then I had to cobble something together. in order to to talk about how how ADHD writers can actually make things easier on themselves or more joyful. I think that that is a lot of hassle and that every single ADHD writer who doesn't have an a an ADHD writing coach who did the exact thing for them pretty much has to do the same thing. Cause there's not too many people in the world talking about the intersection of ADHD and writing. Now what I realized and I just remembered your question, so let's get back to that. I just realized yes. When I was first diagnosed, I was in my early teens. I was very lucky. The only thing they could tell me about ADHD is sometimes you have a hard time focusing. Do you want to take these meds? Yes or no? And I said, Well, these meds make me angry and aggressive. I'm not an angry and aggressive person. I'd rather not take these meds. And they said, Okay, good luck. Go forth. and that was it. Monica Hay: Okay. Susanne: We didn't know anything about ADHD. Now the thing, especially in women, the thing about the online ADHD communities is there's a lot of there's there was a lot of mess that they showed. People are very vocal on social media about their inability to keep their room clean and their floor drobe, their their tendency to put all their clothes, drop all their clothes on the floor. They are very open about how hard it can be to brush your teeth when you have ADHD. Or to remember to take your ADHD meds so you remember things. Or to drink enough water, or how many people are forgetting lunch. And those things became normalized. So for me, who had ADHD for a very long time and knew I had ADHD for a very long time before these online communities emerged. The diagnosis didn't do so much, but this recognition that all the things that I felt made me a terrible person and made me a bad adult and not serious and incapable were actually ADHD. That was such a big revelation. Like it dwarved the diagnosis. And with those revelations that it wasn't me, it was the ADHD, came a lot of acceptance and a lot of liberation and a lot of acceptance and empathy for myself, self-compassion, as you're talking about. And that is what I needed to actually start building a life that works for me and for my brain. Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: A life that doesn't set me up to fail. Now I am super Monica Hay: Right. Susanne: grateful to the ADHD communities online, but this doesn't exist for ADHD writers. And that means that ADHD writers, even if they have the ADHD diagnosis, are still stuck In the sense that if this doesn't work and if all the write five hundred words every day and do this, do that, that is that is touted online as the only way to be a writer, if that doesn't work for me, then clearly I'm not cut out for this. Clearly I am bad. I'm a bad writer, I'm incapable, this thing I've been dreaming about since I was eight years old is never going to happen for me because the internet says that if I can't be consistent, I cannot be a writer. So I think that what we need is exactly what I found in the online ADHD communities, this recognition, this this seeing your own challenges reflected in someone else, someone you respect, someone who has achieved things and therefore has proven that it is possible to both embrace your ADHD NIS and produce the the writing results that you're dreaming about. That is why recognition first Monica Hay: Yeah, I think Susanne: and after that we get the tools and the systems and the strategies, et cetera. Monica Hay: Yeah. Well, it's funny because I think social media, as much as there's pros and cons to it, one of the biggest pros is how it's you you see other people's challenges as ADHD is reflected and you realize that's that's what I'm doing and it's more normal than I thought. Susanne: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: Right. And I I always ha I see people online even lately say like, we've like normalized it too much. And I'm like, okay. I Susanne: Yeah. Monica Hay: I remember I didn't realize that I probably was ADHD until it was dur it was during COVID and I was, you know, ultimately not really Yeah. Susanne: All your systems and structures disappeared. Yep. Monica Hay: Exactly. And when I went to get diagnosed and he was asking me all these questions and he was like, Do you have like struggles in school? And I was like, my god, yeah. And like I've I've told the story even before I was diagnosed. I had always known that I was what my family called a late bloomer. And they didn't see that say that in a mean way. They just meant like, it took me time to mature. And I didn't know that that was because I was neurospicy. I just thought I Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: was stupid when I was a kid. And the the recognition of seeing even even talking to my clients, you know, when they talk about like an experience they're having as an ADHD, I'm like, yeah, that's something I experienced it well. And they're like, my God, what? I th What? 'Cause how how are you supposed to know if nobody else in your life has it or is also writing? Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: You wouldn't know. And we all need I mean, it's the same reason they say we need diverse books. It's the same it's the same exact concept of like we need to see ourselves reflected. Have you ever read Anna Green Gables, by the way? Susanne: No, but it is a very popular one that has been recommended to me a lot. Monica Hay: The reason I ask is because she if you Google her and like Google the the book, she is said to be an ADHD child. And when I when I read that book, I was like, my god, this was how I was as a kid. I was just like her. And it was very healing to read an account of this child who was just as talkative and like made shit up, was was kind of chaotic. Right? Like I was so similar to her. So if you're listening and you're curious, I highly recommend reading even even the first book in that series because she's she's like such typical ADHD. but yeah, seeing seeing yourself and others, I think, is extraordinarily important. And so that's what you mean by recognition. It's like that The echo of our own experiences and other people. Susanne: Yes. Monica Hay: I love that. I love that. Okay, when is the base camp to brilliance? When is it running? Susanne: Mm-hmm. It is running in ADHD Awareness Month in October. no, that's not a coincidence. the weekend of October 16 through 18. And the way I've done it is that so that at whatever time zone you are in, there are sessions that you can attend live, but you have 14 day access on all tickets to the replays. So we kind of assume that you're not going to attend every single session live. Because I wanted to include people from different time zones so that we can have a true global event. So it's October 16, Friday through to October 18, Sunday. There will be 15 speakers, including Monica, who will all give their own presentations, workshops, etc., on a variety of topics. And then there's also going to be six VIP panel discussions, which I truly enjoyed last year. You will hear Monica's fabulous laugh while the panel panelists, the the speakers discuss your questions live on air. Monica Hay: I love that you call my laugh fabulous. I don't r did something happen last year where I laughed and it Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: was I can't even remember. Susanne: You laughed multiple times. It's always my intention to make you laugh. Yeah. Monica Hay: That was so funny. Well, I love it, I love it. And when do tickets go live? Susanne: The tickets are live now. Monica Hay: Girl, it's like a month before the event. Susanne: I know I know but I wanted to g have the opportunity to give away little gifts and and and have an early bird pricing w and and do Monica Hay: Love it. Susanne: all the other fun stuff that come with a launch like that. So yes, we needed a little bit of runway for that. Monica Hay: Love it. Well, if you're listening, the link in this show is my affiliate link. So help a girl out and Susanne: Sure. Monica Hay: sign up for the affiliate link. And yeah, I'd love to see you guys there. It's gonna be amazing. It's always fun to hang out with other ADHD writers, other Neo Spicy people. And I also love that it's of all types of writers. I love you welcome, you know, poets, novelists, memoirists, everybody, Susanne: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: which I think is really special. Susanne: Right. As as well as odd Monica Hay: And where can people Susanne: AHDers, people who are both ADHD and experiencing chronic chronic illness, people who are ADHD and there's a lot of variety within the lineup as well. where can what was Monica Hay: Yeah. Susanne: your next question, Monica? Monica Hay: Where can people find you on socials or online? Susanne: That is a very good question. And I almost completely forgot to talk about that. Yes. I am Passionate Writer Coaching on most platforms. I'm most active on on Instagram, where you can find me at passionate writer coaching. Monica Hay: Nice. And your passionate router coaching dot com is your website? Perfect, perfect. All right, all, thank you so much for listening and I'm very, very excited to see you at the summit. And thank you, Suzanne, for being here. Susanne: Thank you so much for having me, Monica. This was a wonderful chat.