Latest / The Generalist World Pod / Burnout is misalignment, not tiredness

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Burnout is misalignment, not tiredness · The Generalist World Pod

• 0:00
  Hey, it's Millie, and welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. This is the podcast for people who have never fit into a box at work, and to be honest, we don't really want to.
• 0:09
  Every week, I chat with a new member of Generalist World and I share their stories, their philosophies, their frameworks of how they are living their life and creating work that actually aligns with their generalist skill set.
• 0:22
  So if you are someone who has had a non-linear, squiggly career, this is the podcast for you. Amy's in the studio. [laughs] Welcome. Welcome. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you. Oh, it's so good to be here. I l- I love...
• 0:36
  You're looking very, like, autumnal at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful and fine Really leaning into it.
• 0:41
  Yeah, like I saw this cardigan on, like, I think it was the end of August, and I was immediately like, "I need this. I will need this for the next couple of months." So, yeah- Why?... fully prepared. [laughs] Why?
• 0:52
  H- what is your relationship to this time of year? So I have my... Well, my birthday was last week, so I'm very much like an autumn girly. It's one... it's one of the most beautiful months.
• 1:03
  Like, everything goes kinda orangey and warm. The weather's still quite nice, but it's not too hot, not too cold. Jumper season, obviously. Perfect time to wear jumpers. And it also feels...
• 1:14
  We were talking a little bit before about, like, nesting and settling down. Mm. I feel like it's a really good time of year to just take stock, wind down, kind of check in with yourself a little bit.
• 1:24
  So yeah, fully into the autumn season. Oh, same. And, like- [laughs]... in my 20s, I was such a summer girly. I didn't have a winter for, like, seven years. I was a tour guide, and I just kept skipping it.
• 1:37
  I would just go from summer to summer to summer. Mm. And now I'm like, "Give me the slow. Give me the autumn." [laughs] Give me... Like, I'm craving, I'm craving some big, juicy autumn quietness.
• 1:51
  I actually started just this morning. Have you done The Artist's Way before? I've heard of it, not done it. I started it this morning. We're having a little group in GW. Mm-hmm.
• 2:00
  And to be honest, it's been sitting on my shelf for, like, a year. And then the equinox passed, and it started feeling autumn, and I was like, "I think this is the moment. Like, let's, let's do The Artist's Way."
• 2:12
  So I can keep everyone posted on, on what that, on what that's like. Okay. There's lots of different ways we can go here.
• 2:19
  I wonder, just to give people a flavor, an idea of who they're listening to for the next half an hour or so, how do you describe yourself? What are you interested in? What are you m- and most curious about at the moment?
• 2:31
  Give us a bit of flavor for who Amy is. Oh, my gosh. Y- this is always, like, the hardest question, right? Particularly for a generalist. They're like, "Okay, who am I?" Um, so I have always just been...
• 2:45
  I'm just gonna describe myself as a curious person, someone who learns by trying new things, who likes to think outside of the box. I'm sure you've spoken to loads of people like this.
• 2:57
  But through my career, I've basically done things that I've thought are helpful and good. So I think how we met, and what you might remember me from for, like, our other conversations, is a Notion consultant.
• 3:10
  So someone who knows a lot about Notion, knows a lot about how to use it in different contexts.
• 3:16
  But outside of that, I was also just someone who was helpful to businesses because I could combine all my other strengths and all my other skills.
• 3:24
  So if they needed someone who, who could illustrate a mascot, suddenly I was that person. You needed someone who could build a new website, that was also me. Uh, you needed someone who...
• 3:38
  You're having an in-person event, and you needed, like, a mural on a wall, that was also me. So I feel like I am a generalist in the most... I don't even know how to describe it.
• 3:51
  [laughs] I'm sure you know what I mean of, like, I am a generalist. That's, that's who I am. Yes. Through and through. I, I love this. So would you say that you have a, an artistic streak?
• 4:03
  Is this an important part of your world? Absolutely, yeah. I think you can trace it back to in school, right? Like, I was a straight A student. Did a lot of, like, the maths, the science, like history, English.
• 4:15
  Like, I got A's in everything. And I think when you're of that mindset, like when you have that skill, you're funneled into the more STEMY subjects. Mm-hmm.
• 4:24
  You know, you're into, like, engineering and, like, into the sciences because, oh, you're brainy. Like, you can do all the brainy things. But I insisted on taking art at A level as well.
• 4:34
  I was like, "No, I, I need to keep that up because I genuinely like that part of it. Yeah, I'll, I'll do all the maths and all the science and stuff, but let me continue doing my art."
• 4:43
  And I carry that forward into my adult working life as well. Like, I work as a programmer, but a lot of my hobbies are still very creative. Like, I love drawing, I love crochet. I pick up, like, embroidery.
• 4:57
  It's definitely a core part of who I am. Mm. Did you crochet the blanket in your background? I did. Yeah, yeah. So that is my, uh, commuter blanket. So, um, like I commute into London.
• 5:10
  Obviously, a lot, a lot of people do. And on the train, I wanted to do something that wasn't just going on my phone. Like, like, I, I read books too, but I was like, "I need something a little bit different." So I...
• 5:22
  You can see it's made of... I'll grab it. [laughs] See. You can see it's, it's made of squares. Oh, gorgeous.
• 5:29
  So each one of these squares I would crochet on the train, and then when I got home I'd stitch them all together. Ah. This took me- Cool... oh, God, I can't remember now, but like hundreds of hours.
• 5:40
  Absolutely hundreds of hours. [laughs] But yeah, it's so good. It's so soft. Yeah, really proud of this one. Wow. I love it. Okay. Amazing.
• 5:48
  So clearly you've got this big, full generalist skill set with maybe a leaning toward these... It's so interesting to me 'cause you've got clearly this, like, artistic talent and desire and, like, channel.
• 6:01
  But then you're also, like, really good on, like... I mean, Notion is very much like a Lego data- And like built systems really. So it's an interesting thing to combine those two. How did you land into Notion?
• 6:15
  What did that look like? So it started out as just a tool for work. The company I was working with at the time, I think Notion had just come out of the beta, and we were just trialing it out, and I loved it.
• 6:28
  I immediately got sucked in. I think this was even a time before they had databases. I just liked making all the pages and organizing all my different work in there.
• 6:37
  And then I started using it for everything of, like, just general life planning. I tracked my shopping list in there. [laughs] God, what else did I do? I did all sorts of little bits and bobs. And then at some point,
• 6:52
  I can't remember what started it, but I think I shared my... Oh, that was it, I made my portfolio in Notion and someone was like, "Oh, how did you do that? I... Like, teach us how to do that."
• 7:02
  So I started running workshops on how to build websites in Notion, and then I learnt about the ambassador program, so then I joined the ambassador group, and then that kept spiraling into being a consultant, so I would help companies to organize their Notion workspaces.
• 7:17
  Yeah, that's just how it started, was with me tinkering around for my own personal organization and joy, and then just people getting on board with that. Being like, "I wanna do that too. Show me. Show me."
• 7:29
  So yeah- Mm... that's how I got in. [laughs] This is the first lesson of the podcast, people. So you followed your curiosity. You found something you naturally wanted to play with anyway.
• 7:39
  It literally started with you making your own shopping list on Notion. Mm. Like, no one starts making their own shopping list thinking, "Maybe this could be a business one day." It's like that, the business emerges.
• 7:50
  The, that, that comes next. So can you talk me through... 'Cause yeah, exactly, when we met, you were, you were, you were the Notion girly.
• 8:00
  Like, we were like, okay, if we need N- I mean, still in GW if anyone has a Notion question, I'm like, "Amy." They tag me, yeah. [laughs] Yes. So you are this Notion expert. I'm actually curious.
• 8:11
  Okay, I'm gonna come to that, but how do you feel about the term, how do you feel about the term, like, specialist? Because you are a specialist, I assume, in Notion. Would you identify- Mm... with that? Oh, gosh.
• 8:25
  Yeah, no one's ever asked me that before. It's completely throwing me. I feel like as a generalist, you kind of, you expand in all different directions, right? You have bits of knowledge in all sorts of different things.
• 8:38
  It... And maybe some of those pockets of knowledge are more, like, you go in deeper than in other parts of your knowledge.
• 8:46
  But then I also think, again, one of my values as a Notion consultant is being able to bring in that Notion knowledge with, like, this is a silly example, but, like, knowing Illustrator well enough to make custom icons for all your pages and, like- Mm...
• 9:01
  custom banners and stuff, or ages and ages ago, knowing the API well enough to be able to build services from... Like, this was before all the AI capability was added.
• 9:15
  But being able to program in all of those little customizations that you need. So even though I was a specialist in the tool of Notion, I was still able to bring in my generalist mindset- Mm...
• 9:27
  and tool set into that to be a specialist that also had a generalist sort of bent. [laughs] So specialist, but also still, like, in disguise generalist underneath.
• 9:39
  [laughs] I totally hear that, and it's, it's probably my, my favorite and most perplexing learning from building Generalist World is that we have so many people who are specialists inside Generalist World, and in fact I would say even I'm specializing in, you know, content creation and community building, and I think the difference is, like, it's, like, right now verse maybe this, I don't know if I'm gonna be doing content in, like, five years.
• 10:09
  So I'm like- Mm-hmm... I, I'm keen to go deep.
• 10:11
  When you were speaking, I'm a very visual person, and when you were speaking about how your generalist skills go in all directions, I don't know how familiar you are with, like, um, slime molds.
• 10:22
  Have you heard of these, like, slime molds? No. No, I haven't. [laughs] They are amazing. They sound disgusting. [laughs] They're s- they're honestly the most cool... Like, I don't even understand fully what they are.
• 10:34
  I'm not gonna go too much on a tangent, but basically if you put the slime mold into a maze, it will find the fastest way out of the maze. And so they've used it to, like...
• 10:46
  They did, like, a map of London, and then they put the slime mold in to see, like, where the fastest, like, exit routes or the best way to build, like, a train line.
• 10:54
  And it just, it felt like a visual map of, like, this generalist skill set, where, like, the world is kind of a maze, and the world of work is kind of a maze. And as generalists, gosh, we can go any which way.
• 11:09
  We can spread ourselves in all these directions, and I think the skill- Mm... is, like, maybe trusting.
• 11:15
  Like, it sounds like you have, like, quite a lot of trust in yourself to, like, you could go in all these directions, but you're kinda just gonna pick this one. Mm.
• 11:23
  Um, I'm curious, like, how do you pick which route you're going to go? How do you pick which direction when your slime mold Amy Rogers Notion- [laughs]... consultant career can go any which way? How do you pick?
• 11:37
  How do you choose? It's pure feeling. It's pure instinct. It's happened to me at several points in my career, where you kinda get this itch in your brain where you're like, "I really wanna try doing this."
• 11:49
  Like, I worked as a, a permanent product designer in, like, embedded in companies for, like, the first five years or so of my career- And then at some point, like, I was doing fine, everything was happy, and then at some point something in my brain went, "Yeah, but you wanna try being a freelancer.
• 12:06
  You wanna understand what it's like to operate your own business." And I couldn't get that out of my head. So I did that for a bit.
• 12:12
  And then a couple years ago, the same itch came back and it was like, "You kinda wanna be a front-end developer again, don't you?" [laughs] "You should, you should go back." [laughs] And then you- I followed that branch.
• 12:21
  But the- whenever you're going to all these different routes, you keep all the experiences you just had with you. So- Yeah...
• 12:28
  I was coming into being a front-end developer with years of experience of being a product designer, and then somewhere else far back in that research, in that research, in that journey, I was a user researcher.
• 12:41
  I also had, obviously, all the Notion experience. And it all just kind of gloms together to make my skill set so broad, but then also it's broad enough and it amplifies the thing I'm currently focused on- Mm...
• 12:54
  in a really unique and cool way. And I think when we say generalist, we think of someone who's just kinda, like we... I keep doing the, the slime mold hands now.
• 13:03
  [laughs] But we think of someone who's kinda smushed and unfocused, and that they don't really have a specialism. But I don't think that's true. I think it's that,
• 13:12
  like you were saying, at a particular point in time you become a specialist, but all of your other experiences and skills power that up. So you're kinda like- Mm... a, a leveled up slime mold.
• 13:24
  I can't picture it in my head [laughs] very well, but, like- [laughs]... you, you know what I mean. You're kind of like in one sense specialist, but also generalist. Like, yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
• 13:34
  This is either gonna, like, absolutely land with people, or they're gonna be like, "What are these two women- [laughs]... talking about on this podcast?" Um- They got so distracted by the mold. [laughs] Yeah.
• 13:45
  Uh, there's gotta be, like, a big surge in, like, Google searches for, like, what is slime mold? For me, I'm gonna go check it. [laughs] Oh my gosh, they're so cool. Okay. So
• 13:59
  I wanna frame for people kinda where you are now, because you've done an interesting career shape, I suppose- Mm... where a lot of the folks we speak to are in full-time roles, and they're like, "I'm out.
• 14:11
  I wanna go freelance. I wanna go self-employed," and they're going in that direction. But you- Mm... have gone from being freelance into back into a full-time role. So firstly, what was the impetus for that?
• 14:24
  What was the thing that happened in your head or that voice that comes in your head that said, "Let's go full-time"? Hm. So I think, like I have done at several points in my career, I got very lucky.
• 14:35
  So it was the end of 2024, and like I said, I got that itch where I was like, "Oh, you wanna do front-end development." And then another part of me was like, "Oh, no, but then you'd be a junior again.
• 14:45
  Like, you'd have to try and be a, a freelancer and be selling a skill you're still quite junior in, relatively speaking."
• 14:53
  And at the time, the company I was freelancing with, which is the company I'm with now, actually, pure coincidence, the situation changed so that they could offer me a permanent role.
• 15:03
  [laughs] And so they, they pitched it as, "Okay, you can stay on with us as a permanent member. Even though you are currently doing product design, we can hire you on as a design engineer." Mm.
• 15:16
  "So we expect that you will be able to skill up into that role quite quickly because we know you, we know that you're good at product design." And so for me it was just kinda obvious. I was like, "Oh, okay.
• 15:27
  I guess I'll, I'll go back to permanent." Um, it made me feel more stable and safe to try something new, when I wasn't having to balance all the other freelance stuff. Like, freelance is...
• 15:41
  I found it really good for trying a bunch of different things, but also, like, I already knew how to do product design, so the scary, uncertain part was in who I was gonna be working with- Mm...
• 15:54
  and, like, navigating client relationships and doing all the admin of invoices and all that kinda stuff.
• 15:59
  Whereas going back into permanent meant that I could focus on learning a skill that I didn't have a complete knowledge of yet. Mm.
• 16:06
  So that's kind of what drove me to come back in as, you know, so to speak, of, like, I've wanted more stability so that I could focus on what I needed to at the time. Ooh, I love that. And when you look back at your...
• 16:21
  'Cause you had your freelance business for, like, three years, was it? Oh, gosh. So I, I became a freelancer, again, pure coincidence, March 2020. [laughs] Oh. Yeah. Right as lockdowns kicked in.
• 16:34
  I was like, "Oh, have I made a mistake?" And then it ended when I joined my current company. So- Okay... roughly five years, actually, doing the maths of that. Okay.
• 16:44
  And when you look back at that, is there any kind of standout things that either were the needle movers, which you were like, "That is what made being freelance awesome," or that you were like, "I would totally not do that again.
• 16:58
  If I was to go back freelance- Oh, wow... I would totally scratch that"? I think needle movers were community.
• 17:04
  So finding, not even for, like, drumming up business, but finding other people that you could lean on kind of emotionally, but then also just to learn what it's like to be a freelancer.
• 17:17
  Like, um, that's how I met Ece, actually. We were both in a community for freelancers. And when that was running, that was so lovely.
• 17:27
  Like, again, like, obvious- I'd post, I'd post questions about, like, "Oh, hey, how do I share an invoice? Like, what do I do?" Like, but I was also... It was like having a work Slack, but when you- Mm...
• 17:40
  didn't have a work Slack to join, if that makes sense. Yeah.
• 17:43
  Like, having a little chat where you could post memes and, like, you know, talk about your day and stuff, but you're not talking about the things you're working on.
• 17:52
  So that's one thing that was definitely a needle mover, was having that community. And again, practically as well, like you see in a generalist world, like- You become known as the person that does stuff.
• 18:04
  So if you ever needed to contact a photographer, you'd be like, "Oh, you know, Brian in the, in this community, I could message him." Like, I would get messages from people being like, "Hey, I know you do Notion.
• 18:15
  Do you wanna help this friend of mine to- Mm... sort theirs out?" And then in terms of, like, detractors, I think it took me a little bit of time to get a sense of people who were just gonna make me absolutely miserable.
• 18:29
  And for me, that was people who were nickel-and-diming on my day rate. [laughs] Like, it's a tale as old as time, but if someone is haggling with you before you've even, like, gotten to the point- Wow...
• 18:41
  where you're working together, yeah, red flag. Whatever they're trading, like, often for me it was like, "Oh, I haven't done this before. I might not do it well.
• 18:49
  I don't wanna, like, hedge my bets and give them a terrible service, so I'll give them a discount." Mm. But what that meant was that they felt that they could bully me. Oh.
• 18:58
  They could push me around, and like, "Oh, keep, keep making changes." Like, if I could go back and tell myself something, I'd be like, "Nope, don't budge your day rate.
• 19:06
  If they can't afford you, then they don't need your help." [laughs] Boom. Headline. Yep. If they can't afford you, they don't need your help. I'm sure many, many freelance, self-employed people need
• 19:16
  to kind of be reminded of that. I wonder if we can touch on, like, your experience with burnout. A- basically, how you think about navigating burnout, balancing this, like, very fine line of work and life.
• 19:31
  Where- how does this sit with you? Oh my God, yeah, we've gotta be [laughs] gotta be careful here. Like, this could go on for ages, and I... You know, you could just get tied up in it all. But for me, I think
• 19:43
  the thing that stuck in the topic of burnout, I think people think it's, it's because you're tired, and it's like- Mm... no. For me, it's because there is a misalignment between
• 19:55
  who I am and what I wanna do, and what I'm being asked to do. So for example, like, if you don't enjoy working on really small things, and you're just being chucked really small things to work on every day,
• 20:10
  you're not getting tired by the amount of work you're being given, you're getting tired because you're not being given the right type of work.
• 20:18
  And I'm also someone who needs a bit of, like, thinking, a little bit of a challenge. So I found that for me, the burn- like, I could work for, like, 10 hours straight and not blink. I'm, I'm very good at working.
• 20:32
  [laughs] Um, but if you're being asked to work on something that either you don't understand, like if someone's just gone, "Oh, just do it. Like, don't think about it, just do it."
• 20:42
  Or if you're being asked to s- to work on something that you don't agree with, if you're like, "No, this, this isn't the right thing. I think we should take a step back and, like, plan a little bit, try it again."
• 20:54
  And then if you've got someone there, again, who's saying, "No, just do it. Don't think." Mm. That's the thing that grinds me down. I'm...
• 21:01
  Maybe there are some people who would just be happy to turn up, do whatever, get the paycheck, and leave.
• 21:06
  But I think that's why it's always been really important for me to work with companies that I trust and that I care about, and that I know that they are mission-driven, that they have some overall purpose they are working towards.
• 21:18
  Because it means that you have a reason to do all these things. Like, like, you can see why. You can see the why, you can feel the why, and understand it. So
• 21:31
  for me, that's one of the reasons why in the past, like, burnout has happened, is because particularly as a freelancer you get this quite a bit, where you're like, "Okay, I was just a mercenary. I drop in, I drop out."
• 21:43
  Where you need to have that to keep you going. Like, that's one part of the burnout that I've kind of seen. Another part, and this one's super recent, is
• 21:55
  I'm, I'm not gonna mention that elephant in the room of, like, working in tech, there are things that are happening at the moment that is making everybody really unhappy, and making everybody feel like their, kind of, their jobs are a bit more precarious.
• 22:10
  They're kind of losing their purpose. They're losing their ability to go deep on a problem because this AI elephant is kind of [laughs] taking- [laughs]... all of that from them. And
• 22:23
  I have yet to find a really good sustainable trustworthy way to combat that fatigue. Of course, I am leaning on community.
• 22:33
  Like, to kind of remind people that there are other people around you, and we all care about each other. That is a big thing.
• 22:40
  And then also looking for hobbies and interests, again, kind of back to the craft stuff, hobbies and interests that aren't dependent on you sitting at a laptop- Mm-hmm...
• 22:51
  or that aren't reliant on you being optimal or performing well. Like, for me, this is fun. Like, loads of mistakes in that, but that doesn't matter because I had a good time making it.
• 23:02
  So I think, yeah, reflecting on burnout, one is you need to be doing stuff that is, like, that you care about and that you're good at.
• 23:10
  And then the other thing is finding ways to recharge, I dunno, recharge your soul, I guess. Like- Mm... to come back and to be like, "No, I'm a person. I'm not just here to perform, I'm here to live." Yes.
• 23:24
  Like, what else- [laughs]... to say except yes. It's so refreshing to hear. 'Cause I think when we s- when we start to talk about burnout, and it is a sensitive topic, right? Like, so many people are burnt out right now.
• 23:35
  And- Mm... obviously I get it. It's, it's a lot to be- Mm... alive right now, and to hold many, many truths. And I think it's really helpful for folks to hear
• 23:49
  that it might not be, like, the what that you're doing, but, like, the how. So maybe it is, like, the context or the, the way that the teams are operating. So that could be a helpful frame for people to see. Mm.
• 24:03
  I've also- I've actually just wrote an essay, like, just published an essay today, and one of the-... concepts in it is this idea of, like, a load-bearing wall.
• 24:13
  As we were talking about just before this, I just bought a house, a little tiny home, and my husband introduced me to the concept of a load-bearing wall.
• 24:22
  And it was as I was going around, like, hammering and drilling, and a really good concept, you know?
• 24:28
  And because my brain works in, like, patterns and threads, I was like, "Oh my God, load-bearing wall," like, our identity, who we are as a person, we are just made up of these different walls, stroke dimensions, stroke identities.
• 24:44
  And there are some identities within me that aren't load-bearing, that I'm just like- Hmm... okay, like if I was, like, if I s- I identify as being someone who creates content. If that got knocked over, I'd be fine.
• 24:58
  I'd be like, "Okay," like, life will continue on.
• 25:01
  But if, maybe if one got knocked over that was, like, my writing, like me as a writer, which is something I've done since I could hold a pencil, that is a load-bearing wall.
• 25:12
  That would be something that would really, like, knock my identity. Hmm. And I think,
• 25:17
  I think my advice to people in this world when it is high-stress, high-pressure, and it's only getting more and more high-stress and high-pressure, is to diversify those interests and to be a really interesting person, like offline.
• 25:33
  And- Mm-hmm... it's, it's so underrated.
• 25:35
  Like, one of our- my good friends, Neta, who's a GW member, and she was at the, the California, like, meetup for International Generalist Day, and she described it as interesting and interested people that were there.
• 25:49
  I like that. It's like, that's kind of it. Like, interesting and interested. And this is one of my favorite things about GW and getting to do these podcasts, because no one is one thing. Like, no one- Hmm...
• 26:01
  just has the one wall holding them up. Everyone has, like, many walls, many dimensions. Some are load-bearing. What are some of your favorite, like, interests or curiosities at the moment? Ooh, at the...
• 26:17
  I like that you added the at the moment ca- caveat, because whenever someone asks me [laughs] that question, I have to go back through my entire personal history and be like, "Okay, what's the thing?" Like, "Who am I?"
• 26:29
  But specifically right now, I'm very into, as I have been for a while, my Switch. Like, I have a Nintendo Switch. I just like playing games on that.
• 26:38
  So at the moment I've been playing, it's a game called Little Witch in the Woods. It's quite new and it's, you're a little witch and you are in the woods.
• 26:46
  But you're, like, going around collecting potion ingredients and making potions. So it's, like, absolutely perfect for this time of year. Uh, I picked that up over the weekend. Yeah, over this weekend.
• 26:56
  It feels like it's been a lot longer, but yeah. I feel like just little, silly, cozy games are- Mm... an absolute antidote to whatever else is going on. You know, we already discussed that. We don't need to go into it.
• 27:10
  What else? Coming back to load-bearing walls of, like, one of mine has always been a good and productive person. Hmm. And
• 27:21
  recently I've been doing a bit of work to evaluate if that is a load-bearing wall or if that's just always been there. Mm-hmm. So... And I'm, I'm starting to think it's just that it's just always been there.
• 27:32
  Like, I mentioned before that, you know, I was a very successful kid at school, like, I got loads of good grades. So maybe it's just that that's been there since then, and it is safe to knock it down.
• 27:43
  But also, I don't know. I don't know [laughs] if I want to find that out.
• 27:47
  But that also means that when you're reflecting on who you are as a person outside of work, there isn't really a lot that I can confidently lean on at the moment- Hmm...
• 27:57
  because so many of, like, the things I do for enjoyment, like, the...
• 28:04
  Obviously, I won't mention the crochet again, but, like, writing articles, like, doing podcasts like this, that is still kind of tied to that identity of being, like, a good, professional, sort of- Hmm...
• 28:17
  visible, starting conversations about my work. And it's like, okay, if I were to dismantle that- Hmm... suddenly there's just a big vacuum and I'm like, "Oh, what, what else do I like?" [laughs] "What else am I good at?"
• 28:30
  So that is a very crafty way of me dodging the question of, like- [laughs]... what else, [laughs] what else is going on in your life at the moment? Yeah. It's just lots of, like, bedding down with cozy games and crochet.
• 28:44
  But I also think that that's okay to just have those two things for now. Yes. This is wh- I was just gonna say that.
• 28:50
  Like, it's so interesting that we feel, we, I would be the same, would feel this, like, pressure to be like, "And this, and, and, and," where it could just be like, I'm like really into this cup of tea.
• 29:02
  [laughs] And, like, it, life's kind of- That's okay for now. It is... that it. It's enough. [laughs] So I, kudos. I like that. It can, it can be a full sentence. Like, yeah, the cozy games. That's it. That's all I need.
• 29:15
  [laughs] Mic drop. What about your predictions? Do... What is the world, or maybe not what does the world look like, do you have any predictions, any hunches that you see coming maybe in the next, like, 12 to 24 months?
• 29:33
  Yeah, like, I think, 'cause we, you know, did the little questionnaire before this, and that is something that I have been thinking about since I gave you the answer on that, which was I think people will crave disconnection from everything that's happening digitally.
• 29:51
  They will crave to be disconnected from that. But then also being able to do that will be seen as, like, a privilege. So
• 29:59
  at the moment, like, on the commute into London, I will look around the train carriage and almost everyone is on their phones.
• 30:06
  Not that there's anything wrong with being on a phone necessarily, but the stuff that's on there usually has been designed to make you want to keep looking at it. Mm-hmm.
• 30:16
  And I'm sure that- For most of the people there, there's some part of their brain that's going, "I don't really, like I don't really wanna do this. Like, this isn't... I'm not really retaining anything that I'm seeing.
• 30:29
  Like, it's just making me feel angry." Mm. But to do anything other than that, there's something chemical that's like, it's not as satisfying. Mm. If that makes sense?
• 30:41
  Like, I've definitely been looking for this feeling in myself where if I sit on my phone and scroll versus if I have a book out- Mm... it's like having a snack versus having a meal. Mm.
• 30:51
  Or maybe even having like a big bowl of pasta versus having a, a nice grain salad or something. Like, there is a difference, and I think
• 31:02
  it, there's something in our human brains that makes us go towards the easier, snackier thing. And so I think being able to
• 31:12
  tear yourself away from that, in a sense, or like being able to put that down and be like, "No, I'm just going to read," I feel like that will be a superpower- Mm... to be able to [laughs] do that.
• 31:22
  Like, it sounds, it sounds a little bit pretentious as well, but I also think that that will give someone just a richer experience of themselves- Mm... to be able to dismiss whatever,
• 31:39
  I don't wanna use the word slop, but like whatever is just coming up on the feeds making us angry, 'cause that's been intentionally designed that way. Mm.
• 31:46
  And being able to lean back into, like, stuff that you enjoyed as a kid or something that is like a new interest that you're pursuing.
• 31:55
  I think that's what people want deep down, but I think we're gonna have to have a bit of an uphill fight with ourselves to get there.
• 32:02
  Isn't it, like, so wild that we've gotten ourselves in this position where being bored is a privilege? Yeah. It's mad, isn't it?
• 32:11
  [laughs] Like, we're really, we're really smart as a species, but we've really got [laughs] ourselves, like, in a pickle. I completely see this. Just last weekend, so last week wa- was bananas.
• 32:23
  We did, it was like International Generalist Day, many, many thousands of people. It was just, like, stimulus. It was stimulus the entire week. And on the Saturday I was like, "I need to disconnect.
• 32:36
  I need to be unreachable. I need to be in nothingness for an entire day." And so I did this, like, meditation retreat in my hou- in my house. And the first, like, hour or two was great. It was, like, blissful.
• 32:50
  I was like, "Oh, wow, novelty. Can't be reached." And then- Mm...
• 32:53
  wow, the challenge started coming because I had been so stimulated the whole week, and it's like the first two hours kinda, like, lowered the waterline to be like, "How am I actually?"
• 33:04
  And how am I actually was craving this, like, busyness or craving to continue this, like, busyness and getting pinged and getting, like, honestly, lots of dopamine from seeing lots of people meet all over the world. Mm.
• 33:17
  And then I spent the next, [laughs] the next six hours in this, like, kind of torturous meditation where I was just, like, having to basically sit on my hands so that I was...
• 33:27
  I was like, "Maybe I should, like, go and buy a shed, or maybe I should, like, paint the, paint the stairs. Or maybe it's, is it cheating if I go and make granola?" Like, I just wanted to do anything but nothing.
• 33:40
  Like, anything but just sit there with myself in silence, and I'm not ashamed to say, like, holy crap, it was so challenging. And at the end of it,
• 33:54
  probably around the seven-hour mark, I feel like I m- I got over a bit of a hump, and I came- Mm... to a little bit more of, like, a plateau of feeling like, it's like when you turn the internet on and off again.
• 34:05
  It's got a bit of a reset, and my brain- Mm... felt... So I think, like, I, I completely agree that this, like, pulling ourselves away, it's almost more than discipline. Like, you need, like- Mm...
• 34:17
  support and structure to be able to do this. If I hadn't had the meditation day, I don't, I don't think I could've just sat there for s- seven or eight hours doing nothing.
• 34:26
  But I think, I think there is gonna be more, I don't know what it is, like s- what, what I hope it's not is more technology that enables this. Yeah. I don't need more. I don't need any more.
• 34:38
  [laughs] I do worry that this is probably gonna be the case where more technology gets piled on to be like, "Oh, I've got the answer to unplugging." Mm.
• 34:48
  It's more and more and more technology, and so something I'm holding for me personally is just like, actually, the answers can be as simple as, like, closing my laptop, leaving my phone at home, and going into the woods.
• 35:01
  And it, it really can be as simple as that. Yep. It just takes that thing in your brain that helps you to do that.
• 35:09
  Like, the one that always gets me, I can't remember what it's called, but there's this box that's got like, you put your phone in it, and then you close it, and it sets like a timer. But it's all connected.
• 35:21
  Like, it's all, like, however long you leave it in syncs to your phone. So it's, it's kinda like this weird pantomime of, like, oh yeah, it's a dopamine hit, but from using an app that's not on your phone.
• 35:33
  Like, I just, I just put it in a drawer. I'm like, you don't need to gamify that sort of thing. [laughs] Like, I don't know.
• 35:40
  Maybe it's just, maybe it's just something that didn't sit with me, but I was like, "This is too much." Like, I d- I don't, it's not for me. I hear that. Well, I'm with you on the prediction, and I'm for it.
• 35:52
  I, I think let's be bored, let's be bored in groups, let's meet and have coffee, and, like, be a- be across from each other and be bored, and, like, write with a pen and paper, and, like, create.
• 36:04
  All these things feel s- like, as you said, the antidote to, like- Mm... what is happening with tech at the moment.
• 36:10
  Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really wish you had a chance to talk about while we're here together? Oh, gosh.
• 36:18
  I think for me it'd be cool to get your insight on, like- So obviously you have, like, this beautiful bird's-eye view of everything that is Generalist World, and, like, the kinds of people that come in.
• 36:29
  Have you noticed, like, a lot more people coming in recently? Or is it, like, the types of people that are coming in have changed? Maybe before it was people who were already established generalists, whereas now- Mm...
• 36:41
  it's like people who are- they've been a specialist for a long time, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, but actually maybe in this..." I keep saying new world. It's not really a new world.
• 36:50
  [laughs] It's just the same world that's a little bit different. In what's happening now, is it helpful for me to become a generalist?
• 36:57
  Like, what kinds of trends have you seen in the types of people that are joining Generalist World? Hmm. Ooh, great question.
• 37:05
  [laughs] I tend to see, and this has been the same since the beginning, we're- we're preaching to the converted.
• 37:12
  So it- it's less so people are generalist curious, and if they are generalist curious, they read the newsletter religiously.
• 37:21
  I have had people read that newsletter twice a week, 100% open rate, for, like, three years, four years. Wow. And then they become a member. Oh, so that's... They're not even a member at that point.
• 37:31
  They're just looking at the newsletter. Incredible. They're looking at the newsletter. They're reading every LinkedIn post. They are, they are connected, and in some ways, like, I totally see them as a member.
• 37:43
  It's just not a paid member. They're part of, like, the generalist, like, circle, or sphere, or world probably. [laughs] Should use the real, the real term. But I find that the people who are becoming members are...
• 37:55
  There's, there's a few, like, often pivotal points that I see people say, "Now. Now's the time." It's at a time of transition.
• 38:04
  Either they've quit their job, or they've started a business, or they've lost their job, or they're going for a promotion and they're gonna be changing, like, levels completely.
• 38:13
  So it's some kind of, like, transitionary period. Or also, they're moving. This happens a lot. They're like- Like, moving house or like... Or country or city. Like, "I'm moving to Hong Kong. I need community." Ah.
• 38:28
  And it doesn't even matter if there's not, like, you know, a big community in Hong Kong. They just need community full stop.
• 38:36
  I think the funny thing about Generalist World is that we are, on paper, a professional community. I'm saying this in air quotes for anyone- [laughs]... who's just listening.
• 38:45
  So we come together around this, like, concept of a generalist.
• 38:50
  But really once you're inside, like, there is a professional element, and people are asking questions and getting help with their, like, specific career woes and triumphs and... But it's really a life community.
• 39:04
  Like- Mm-hmm... people are coming, and they're celebrating their babies being born. And, you know, they're, they're needing support 'cause their wife is sick.
• 39:13
  We haven't, like, kept ourselves into the box, of course- Flip [laughs]... of... Oh, yeah. I know, like, oh. [laughs] Shocker, um- [laughs]...
• 39:22
  of being this, like, strictly professional community because for me, professional, what the flip is professional? Like, professional- Mm... like, it's, it's so many spheres, and it's like the slime mold.
• 39:34
  Like, being a professional for me is like the slime mold, and the best work I do of my career is not when I'm trying to be a professional. It's when I'm being Millie.
• 39:46
  And so this is who I'm trying to, like, attract, people who are also not just living similar careers like this, but who are designing similar lives. It's more...
• 39:57
  It's like, I don't want to say a lifestyle community, but as in we might bond initially, like, we- they might come for the career, but they stay for the people, and they stay for, like, the life. Yeah.
• 40:11
  I think when I described what community... like, what the community was like for me, I described it as, like, I've turned up to a party, and I already know everybody there. Mm. It's that sort of feeling.
• 40:24
  Like, even though you haven't met everybody yet, you're like, "Oh, wait, yeah. Like, I- I know you," in that sort of sense. Yeah. So yeah, like, it definitely isn't just professional. Like, it's...
• 40:35
  Yeah, it's, it's comfy. And there's a free- there's a freedom that comes with people who get it, and I, I understand what you mean by, like, you know everyone there.
• 40:45
  You don't literally know everyone, but you know the vibe. [laughs] Like, the vibe when we're, we're not... We don't have to have the mask. We don't have to be super polished. Like, you can just come in your gym gear.
• 40:55
  Like, it's okay- Mm... to the party. Like, [laughs] it... No judgment. You bring your own snacks. We don't mind. Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. Always bring your own snacks. That's the only prerequisite. [laughs] BYO food.
• 41:07
  We'll have a potluck. That is... That's the vibe. Oh, Amy, this has been awesome. We will link
• 41:15
  all your links in the show notes so people can get in touch with questions and comments, and thank you so much for coming on the GW podcast. Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's, it's so cute. It's been really good.
• 41:27
  [laughs] Awesome.