Latest / Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries / Episode 142: Intergenerational Kinship (ft. Evan Schroeder)

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Episode 142: Intergenerational Kinship (ft. Evan Schroeder) · Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries

• 0:00
  You joined Trinity Lodge number 282 in Duluth how did you find Freemasonry?
• 0:07
  so I, I think what initially led me to the craft, I w- I was always, the kid in school, um, that would go to the library and I would, I would never be reading fiction books, right?
• 0:22
  I'd always look for, for history or, books on, uh, different geographic areas of the world to learn more about those.
• 0:30
  I have always been asking questions about those things.
• 0:34
  Um, and, and eventually I, uh, I met some, some really great people who just so happened to be Masons.
• 0:41
  I had a lot of father figures in my life, which was really great.
• 0:43
  and, uh, two of those individuals that I, I approached, um, Mike and Rudy Denke in Alexandria, um, ended up being my, my first and second line signers.
• 0:53
  I always kinda heard them talking about Masonry while I was growing up, and I, I had a profound respect for it.
• 1:00
  I think what initially led me to join is just being inquisitive as a young person and, uh, being curious about the, the mystery that Freemasonry had.
• 1:13
  What are your favorite aspects?
• 1:15
  so I, I really love the, the ritual.
• 1:18
  I love the history.
• 1:20
  Um, I'm, I'm really big into that.
• 1:22
  I, I do a lot of research on, uh, Trinity Lodge in, in Duluth, um, and, and going through our old minutes and, and writing papers, and so I really like the academic side.
• 1:31
  I've grown to really appreciate the, the brotherhood and community, um, intergenerational friendships, a lot of those things that come as, as part of the Masonic package, if you will.
• 1:44
  I have read some of your contributions to the Trinity Trowel, and you mentioned going through old minutes.
• 1:49
  Have you found some interesting little nuggets of the past that maybe weren't known by current members?
• 1:56
  Any surprises you find in those old minute books?
• 1:59
  Yeah, I, I would say so.
• 2:01
  I, I think there's just really interesting coincidences that, that happen throughout it or, um, you know, one of the, one of the things I heard from, um, some of the more seasoned members of our lodge was that our building used to be a, uh, a funeral home.
• 2:15
  And, uh, going through the minutes, I, I learned that that wasn't necessarily the case.
• 2:21
  the truth about that, um, is kind of adjacent.
• 2:24
  Um, there was a funeral home nearby, and because our lodge had, um, such a great fellowship hall area, they would often do, the meal after those services over in our building.
• 2:35
  So it's easy to understand why somebody would equate that, with being a funeral home.
• 2:40
  But really just learning more about our building.
• 2:43
  Trinity Lodge, in my opinion, is one of the oldest and, um, most historically significant buildings in the West End of Duluth.
• 2:50
  you know, it was built there really early on.
• 2:51
  There's been all kinds of really cool, um, really cool stories about it.
• 2:56
  the person that built that originally as a home kinda came over from Sweden, and, and really helped do a lot of the, the planning for what would become the West End of Duluth, which I find extremely fascinating.
• 3:08
  but I, I guess a cool tidbit about that is, we're on a little bit of a pause now for putting out articles.
• 3:15
  I think that's gonna pick up here again soon for the Trinity Trowel.
• 3:19
  but, I think monthly we put out like a, you know, five to seven-page research paper.
• 3:25
  Um, it kinda fluctuates month to month.
• 3:27
  but what's really cool about that, um, on top of, you know, learning more about the history of the building or the history of our organization, the lodge there, is just how much information you can pick up about the history or, or what was going on in the community, and I think that's really cool.
• 3:42
  And I, I didn't realize this until recently, and'cause when I first joined Masonry, I had no idea I had Masons in my family.
• 3:48
  I think that's kind of a common, common thread there.
• 3:51
  but I, I realized when I actually found, uh, and it, it was like a third great-grandfather of mine that was also a Ma- a Masonic writer, and I got to, uh, read some of, his impressions about, you know, the meaning of Masonry, and then I thought about that, and, and I think the article I read from him was from 1907.
• 4:09
  What a cool connection.
• 4:11
  Yeah, and I was like,"Wow, I, I had no idea about this when I first joined, but now, you know, all these years later, um, being able-- just knowing that I'm doing the same thing as, as a, a relative of mine way back is kind of a cool circular experience for me.
• 4:26
  Trinity Lodge was chartered in 1915 What else stands out that you've learned about your lodge historically that the rest of us may not know?
• 4:36
  So I, I was talking about those weird coincidences or, or, or things that you come across while going through, um, minutes or researching the history, and, one of the things that I was saying was that our building, you know, was a, was a home at one point, um, by the Swanstrom family.
• 4:50
  And, and eventually, I-- and I believe it was because of a Masonic connection, I'm not sure yet, The home was eventually sold to our lodge for, for use as a, a building.
• 5:00
  one of the things that I think is super interesting is, when the, the matriarch of the Swanstrom family passed away, and this is why I think there was a Masonic connection there, she had members of the Order of the Eastern Star present at her funeral, which was hosted in our building when it was their home at the time.
• 5:17
  what is also interesting is that, um, the, the individual that officiated the funeral there, his last name was Harmon.
• 5:25
  I think it was, like, W.E.
• 5:27
  Harmon or something like that.
• 5:28
  But he ended up becoming the first chaplain of our lodge, when it eventually started meeting in that building.
• 5:35
  So it was kind of cool.
• 5:36
  He was, you know, officiating or, or serving in like a, a spiritual capacity for that family in that instance, but then also when the lodge eventually moved in there, he served as chaplain.
• 5:46
  there's a lot of really cool stuff.
• 5:47
  Um, you know, we have a really, uh, a beautiful oil painting hanging on the wall of, of, of scenery, and, uh, it's-- was done by a, a local artist in Duluth.
• 5:57
  I'm blanking on his name right now.
• 5:58
  uh, Thomas Merritt, donated that, to our lodge, and it, it was hung up on the wall.
• 6:04
  And I was like,"Okay, you know, what compelled, this individual to donate it?" And it says it was donated by, you know, Mr.
• 6:10
  and Mrs.
• 6:11
  Thomas Merritt.
• 6:12
  And, uh, l-looking at that, um, his wife, um, her maiden name was Swanstrom, and she was actually the daughter of the original owners of our building.
• 6:22
  So how cool, I'm just thinking about it, how cool would it have been, you know, her, her husband's a member of the lodge that's now meeting in her childhood home, and they come, and they hang up a picture on the wall as a, in honor of her late parents that, that built that building there.
• 6:35
  These are the historical tidbits that we can't lose.
• 6:39
  The connections and how all of the, this evolved is just fascinating.
• 6:45
  Obviously, we are going to talk a lot about Freemasonry today, but to get to know you a little bit better, what is your connection with Indigenous people, working with them?
• 6:56
  I know you work in cultural resource management.
• 6:59
  What does the day-to-day look like in your field?
• 7:02
  I specifically work in kind of the re- regulatory realm of, uh, like, cultural resource management or heritage preservation.
• 7:10
  and, and so it has a lot to do with archeology.
• 7:13
  and a lot of the work that I do, is centered on this thing called Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act.
• 7:21
  And just a layperson's kind of explanation of that, um, whenever a, uh, whenever there's a federal nexus for a project, you know, that could be federal funding, federal permitting, there's a, uh, a requirement, that agency consult, um, not only, with sovereign tribal nations, but also with, like, state historic preservation offices.
• 7:43
  And really, what, what that's meant to do is to kind of as- assist with, like, historic property identification, you know, where are these important places, these archeological sites, um, historic buildings, things like that, and then to, um, determine whether or not that project or that federal undertaking will have an impact on those places.
• 8:05
  So it's a, a lot about, advising and helping to make sure that, while development happens, it doesn't destroy our collective, uh, cultural heritage.
• 8:19
  In the past few episodes of this podcast, we've talked a lot about the fact that you don't find meaning.
• 8:24
  Meaning finds you.
• 8:27
  So you go out and volunteer, find something serviceable to do with your lodge brothers or individually How should we pursue living our masonry?
• 8:40
  Not necessarily activity specifically within the fraternity or the lodge setting, but putting it into practice generally speaking in our lives outside of the lodge.
• 8:53
  Yeah.
• 8:53
  So I think, or at least for me anyway, um, you know, I, I learned a lot, going through the degrees and, um, you know, I, I, I think a lot of people know about, um, the lessons associated with our working tools, and, I think it's really just caused me to look introspectively and, and said,"Hey, you know, how, how am I living?" So for example, um, you know, I, I love to look at the, the 24-inch gauge.
• 9:19
  You know, I'm so bad at that one.
• 9:21
  Aren't we all, though?
• 9:22
  Right.
• 9:22
  Right.
• 9:23
  Like, work takes up so much time.
• 9:25
  You gotta try to figure out how it all goes.
• 9:27
  For a non-Mason, what does a 24-inch gauge mean?
• 9:30
  so it's, it's pretty much like a, um, like a ruler, right?
• 9:33
  And, um, we're, we're taught to, to use that as a, um, as a tool to, to divide up the, the 24 hours of our day.
• 9:43
  and it really makes you, makes you think, like, are you-- do you have a good work-life balance?
• 9:49
  Do you-- are you spending too much time in this one area that, that, you know, maybe you should be focusing your efforts elsewhere?
• 9:56
  Stuff like that.
• 9:57
  Are you getting enough sleep?
• 9:58
  Ex- exactly.
• 10:00
  Yeah, that's the first thing I sacrifice, man.
• 10:01
  I don't know.
• 10:02
  But You're young, though.
• 10:03
  That'll catch up with you.
• 10:04
  You wanna- I'm, I'm immortal still.
• 10:06
  No.
• 10:08
  I kinda have a personality where I can't say no.
• 10:10
  so if that's at, if that's at work or, um, you know, even i- even in masonry, right?
• 10:15
  I, I love putting my effort into things I really care about, and There is not enough time to put as much effort into the things that I care about as I would like there to be.
• 10:27
  How do you make it work then?
• 10:30
  like you mentioned, sleep, uh, that's usually the first thing I sacrifice.
• 10:34
  I, uh, I'm like always up late at night working on stuff.
• 10:37
  you get up, you know, you go to work, you, you put in your time there.
• 10:40
  Um, you get home, you, you really focus on family and, you know, sometimes you have lodge.
• 10:45
  Um, but then after that, everything else, all these other projects, um, you kinda, for me anyway, I, I work on a lot of that after people go to bed.
• 10:53
  It's hard to unplug.
• 10:54
  exactly.
• 10:55
  Yeah.
• 10:55
  Do you ever look at the clock and think,"Oh my God, I, I really need to wind this down because it's 1:00, 2:00 in the morning"?
• 11:01
  Yep, work starts early.
• 11:03
  Time to go to bed.
• 11:06
  We've talked a lot about the lodge experience when it comes to internal culture, hospitality, the, the authenticity of brotherhood.
• 11:16
  The lodges in Minnesota doing very well right now are not necessarily the biggest or have the highest dues or even the most ornate building.
• 11:26
  They're the lodges where brothers actually like each other and care about one another and work and play well together.
• 11:34
  In all honesty, there are likely other lodges that are doing a little better ritual or charging more or better at administrative tasks.
• 11:43
  But it really comes down to culture.
• 11:46
  I think this is a conversation we've not been having enough, and this is going to be the conversation of the next decade.
• 11:54
  If your culture is dysfunctional, you cannot add enough new members to make up for the dozens who will disappear.
• 12:03
  And that doesn't mean that any of these lodges are perfect, but w- we-- finding a way to get along, finding a way to disagree agreeably.
• 12:10
  Companies in the corporate world make the same mistake.
• 12:14
  They ignore the culture but think that pinball machines and foosball tables and free snacks, all the amenities, are gonna make up for the lack of culture.
• 12:22
  But if the culture is broken and messy, all of the bells and whistles and perks won't make any difference to the employee retention, which is directly linked to culture.
• 12:34
  I think that parallels the Masonic experience.
• 12:37
  We keep thinking that bigger candidate class, more members alone without paying attention to how we treat each other, how we function.
• 12:48
  Again, that authenticity comes up time and time again.
• 12:52
  Is brotherhood a buzzword, or is it something we have to pursue in a very deliberate way?
• 12:59
  I think it needs to be deliberate.
• 13:01
  and, and you really can't force something like that.
• 13:04
  Um, and, and so when you, when you mention like quarrels or different things, um, that, that might exist, you know, it, it's strange.
• 13:11
  Some of those things go back a long time, and people like to dwell on them.
• 13:15
  Uh, and it's really hard to overcome some of that stuff in a, in a lodge culture.
• 13:20
  I do really think that getting along and being on the same page about things is, is really important, and that doesn't mean that we can't disagree.
• 13:29
  I think one of the beautiful things in Masonry is that we're so diverse in opinion, that, that's amazing.
• 13:34
  Um, complaining our way out of a situation, I, I think complaining is probably the easiest thing to do, but actually doing something about it, that, that's where the real effort kicks in.
• 13:47
  and it's, it's whether you're willing to put forth the effort that makes all the difference.
• 13:51
  yeah, Lodge cultures are just so diverse and unique, and everywhere you go, they're different.
• 13:56
  kind of aside, but when I originally moved to Duluth, um, I, I tried to visit as many lodges as I could to find one where, um, you know, I really kinda fit in or meshed well with the group.
• 14:06
  and they're all, they're all so unique.
• 14:08
  you know, all, you know, some, some have kind of shared interests in, in certain areas.
• 14:12
  Some are like the fellowship lodge or the, one that's heavy into research and history or ritual or things like that.
• 14:18
  They're just so different.
• 14:19
  and sometimes it's-- Well, I don't wanna say sometimes.
• 14:23
  It's always okay if a, if you find out a lodge isn't a good fit for you to go explore another one.
• 14:29
  That's one of the beauties of, um, having the right to travel as a Mason, you know, experience other places.
• 14:34
  And I think what's great is sometimes, uh, you know, in all organizations, right, um, if you don't look outside of yourself, it becomes kind of an echo chamber, right?
• 14:43
  And you-- there's no new ideas flowing in.
• 14:46
  But, um, by traveling, you can pick up on what other lodges are doing really well, what their struggles are, um, help bring that back to your lodge to, you know, hopefully improve it, and share ideas that you have with the lodges that you visit.
• 15:00
  I think that's a beautiful thing.
• 15:04
  I think it would be helpful for us to realize we cannot complain our way out of our reality right now.
• 15:11
  Where's our focus?
• 15:13
  Ideally, it's on our trajectory and not on the shortcomings of the past.
• 15:18
  But sometimes it feels like, well, complaining's easier.
• 15:23
  Who's gonna do the work, though?
• 15:24
  We, we can all sit around at lunch and, and complain or have our petty quarrels about something that's not perfect, but who's willing to do the work necessary to get us out of that rut in our particular lodge so that we can make some progress I think there's a lot to be said about, um, you know, people w- being willing to do the work.
• 15:46
  you know, sometimes you find a lot of people who are interested in doing that, and sometimes, um, there's a lot of people that are content with, you know, the, the way things are.
• 15:54
  and, you know- The way they've always been The, the way they've always been, and, and, you know, there might not...
• 15:59
  I don't know.
• 15:59
  I don't wanna, I don't wanna judge that.
• 16:00
  That's, that's a take, for sure.
• 16:02
  but I, I, I think one thing, um, that we really need to be conscious of is, new members coming in, new ideas, and not, not shutting them down for that.
• 16:13
  I think it's, it's really easy to be-- to, to look at somebody, you know, they're, they're coming in with a lot of ambition, um, a lot of excitement, to squash that down a little bit, and I, and I think that is only to the detriment of our lodges.
• 16:26
  Try everything and see if it works, um, because I think people say it a lot,"If you never try it, you're never gonna know." How about instead of trying everything, you make a long list and pare it down to two or three things?
• 16:38
  And those fresh ideas coming in is not by any means endorsing that we should be having an innovation in Masonry.
• 16:44
  No.
• 16:45
  It's fresh ideas on how we do things with the community, not at the community.
• 16:52
  How we share who we are, what we do, who occupies this Masonic Temple, and who are these guys?
• 16:59
  What do they do?
• 17:00
  At, at times it feels like we've done a good job of staying off of the radar because we are not showy when we do something serviceable, but yet there is a balance to be had to showcase what we have done with things like the Masonic Cancer Center, the Masonic Children's Hospital, local charitable efforts, being serviceable to those in need in general.
• 17:21
  That, that's something we need to share.
• 17:22
  That's something that we should be proud of, and, and not in a take a selfie, oh, look at us type of thing, but in that collective effort as Masons to identify who needs some help, and what can we do to be a part of that?
• 17:37
  that is a really good point, and I, I think about it a lot, too.
• 17:40
  Um, you know, a lot of our communities have these, uh, Masonic temples, Masonic lodges in them, right?
• 17:45
  and I think it's really easy for our lodges to be like,"Oh, this is our lodge," right?
• 17:49
  But how do we, how do we change the community perception to be,"Oh, here is a really great community space, um, in our town, that we can use for things." And I, I think part of that, um, at, at least in Tri- we're, we're looking at trying to change the perception of our building at Trinity, to kind of have people be aware that it is a, a really great community resource and a, and a place for, for things.
• 18:15
  Um, and, and not just for our members, but opening it up for other groups.
• 18:19
  What does that look like?
• 18:21
  Yeah, so we're kind of on the, on the very beginning of doing that.
• 18:25
  and I, I think there's much more to come.
• 18:28
  it, it's...
• 18:29
  Our, our space has been used a lot by, uh, by our members.
• 18:32
  Um, you know, I actually personally, um, have used our, our building, um, for our, my daughter's, uh, first birthday.
• 18:39
  We had that not too long ago.
• 18:40
  but letting people know that it's, that it's available.
• 18:44
  Um, one of the things that we're looking at doing, is a, a kind of a public speaker series, um, but opening it up to the community, having people come and see the building.
• 18:52
  Another example of something that we have done there's this event or, or organization, if you will, called Open Doors Duluth, and I think it has been done in the Metro here as well.
• 19:02
  Yes.
• 19:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:03
  that has been fantastic.
• 19:04
  Um, and that was largely coordinated by our, our Worshipful Master, Warren Matyla.
• 19:08
  And really what was done there is, um, we opened up our building, had people came in...
• 19:14
  come in, and, uh, and, and learn about it.
• 19:16
  You know, uh, it's kind of a really well-kept secret in the West End of Duluth.
• 19:21
  Like, what?
• 19:22
  There's a lodge here?
• 19:23
  This is so close to everything that's going on.
• 19:25
  We had no idea, um, to come in and, and look at the beautiful architecture and learn about the history and, and learn that it's a resource for the community.
• 19:34
  The open doors Minneapolis has been wildly successful with just exposure to who, who's a-- who occupies this building?
• 19:42
  I think the caveat with the open door option is to ensure, though, that we're not handing petitions to strangers, that this is our opportunity to share who we are, what we do.
• 19:54
  The Masonic experience would enable someone to give back to the greater good, to become a better version of themself, to forge friendships and connection, the brotherhood we talk about.
• 20:05
  If that resonates with someone, then that's a conversation to be had in the near future What else have you seen that feels like we're doing right as an organization or something more specific to Duluth?
• 20:20
  I think one of the strongest things, about masonry, and I didn't really realize this when I, when I was first joining, um, I think I alluded to it, it before, but I, I think intergenerational friendships or, or even more than that, I think it's kinship that we offer is just so amazing.
• 20:39
  I'm a relatively young mason age-wise.
• 20:42
  I'm 26.
• 20:43
  Um, but some of my best friends are, uh, you know, older in, in life or, or even younger.
• 20:50
  I, I kinda look at that, um, you know, just as, as somebody who's experiencing life at this stage, um, you know, I have a, a really young family.
• 20:58
  I'm going through all these things, and, and being able to, to lean on people that have done it all before to, um, learn from them has been immensely, um, helpful for me.
• 21:10
  they've all experienced life, and- They've all been a- Yeah father of a one-year-old.
• 21:14
  Right.
• 21:15
  Yeah.
• 21:15
  And it's, I don't know, so cool, and I think, you know, that's one of the great things that, that masonry has to offer, that intergenerational kinship, and it's people that want to help you, I think that's amazing.
• 21:26
  Regarding the intergenerational friendships, would you ever have had opportunity to meet some of these people and their families had you not met them in the lodge?
• 21:35
  No, not, not at all.
• 21:37
  and yeah, that's just been so great for me.
• 21:40
  I've never really had a super large social circle, and I think I have more friends now than I've ever had in my whole life, right?
• 21:47
  And I think that's largely in part to the fraternity.
• 21:49
  but even more than that, you know, after living in Alexandria, I, I went to, college in Fargo.
• 21:55
  I went to NDSU, uh, one of the first things I, I did as I was, uh, preparing to move over there was, like, all right, what, what lodges exist here?
• 22:02
  and very shortly after going, started attending lodge, instant community there, and, and that was fantastic.
• 22:08
  I still am super great now living in Duluth, right?
• 22:11
  I did the same thing as when moving from North Dakota back to Minnesota, um, you know, find a lodge, um, instant community.
• 22:17
  It's been really great.
• 22:18
  but I, I still maintain so many friendships and, and relationships with people out in North Dakota, still go out there all the time, and it's largely in part to just being super great friends and family with people out there.
• 22:30
  Where are you from originally?
• 22:31
  Uh, Alexandria, Minnesota.
• 22:33
  So North Dakota was just school and then back?
• 22:36
  kind of fun fact, so I, I joined masonry when I was 18.
• 22:39
  I, I remember, uh, you know, working with my mentor and then going and trying to, you know, learn the proficiency, and I was-- I, I found a-- I was in high school at the time.
• 22:48
  You know, went and found a, a little side room during study hall.
• 22:50
  No one was in there.
• 22:51
  I'm sitting there trying to learn my stuff.
• 22:52
  Hold on.
• 22:53
  You were initiated when you were still in high school?
• 22:54
  I was.
• 22:55
  Had not-- hadn't graduated yet.
• 22:56
  No.
• 22:57
  Wow! Still, uh- All right.
• 22:58
  So study hall, you have-- you're working on your proficiency when you should be doing your calculus.
• 23:03
  What, what did that look like?
• 23:04
  Oh, I, I was pretty good at staying on top of my schoolwork, but, uh, no, that was, that was great.
• 23:08
  No, finding a little, a little place there, going over it, you know, preparing for, you know, meeting up with my mentor later.
• 23:13
  That was a really great experience for me, just learning something else aside from school, aside from all the learning you're doing in life.
• 23:21
  Having another thing to be learning about was super cool for me, and I have so much respect, and, and love for the brothers at Constellation for bringing me in as such a young person.
• 23:33
  and, uh, they, they also, when I graduated, I received a scholarship from them, and so they still supported me as I, kind of, went off to college, and that's been super great.
• 23:44
  you mentioned the youth factor.
• 23:46
  Some lodges are a little reluctant to welcome someone that young.
• 23:50
  It's not that you can't join at that age.
• 23:51
  You can.
• 23:52
  18 is the age.
• 23:54
  I guess it depends on where someone is in life, if they're ready for this.
• 23:58
  This isn't just supposed to be about becoming a Master Mason, going through the degrees, get the ring, get the pin, and then we may not see that young man again.
• 24:07
  It's case by case.
• 24:09
  But you were ready to go.
• 24:10
  You had been reading about this far earlier in life.
• 24:14
  Yeah, certainly nothing to-- I, I wanted to be very, uh, intentional about not ruining the experience for myself.
• 24:21
  but like I said, you know, I, I knew Masons.
• 24:24
  I, I at that time didn't know I had any, any in my family.
• 24:27
  but I, I had respect for what those people said.
• 24:31
  and I'm sure it's very situational on the person, the age that, that they join.
• 24:35
  Um, but I, I was at a point in my life where I really needed guidance, I feel like.
• 24:41
  I was, kind of in the process of personal meaning-making, and maybe even feeling lost in some regard, and I, I think Masonry provided a structure for me that I really needed.
• 24:52
  and largely in part it was the men that I looked up to in my life, and, and I thought that I really wanted to be like them, And after having gone through the experience, I know you didn't wanna spoil it for yourself, but when you look back, how was it?
• 25:06
  like, you hear people talk about it all the time.
• 25:08
  You know, you don't pick up everything going through the degree, but the more that you experience those lessons, you learn more and more and take on more and more.
• 25:16
  but looking back on it now, I consider my journey going through the symbolic degrees of, of the lodge as one of the most profound experiences of my life.
• 25:25
  I- How so?
• 25:27
  so as a, as a young man, right, being able to, to take a step back.
• 25:32
  'Cause, like, I, I think even, uh, I think everybody, you know, we get so caught up into in the moment, what am I doing today?
• 25:38
  How can I satisfy myself now?
• 25:41
  You know, how do I make the next dollar?
• 25:43
  But stepping back, looking at life holistically, and the, the whole span of your life and saying,"All right, this is, you know, where I've been.
• 25:52
  This is what I'm doing now.
• 25:54
  What do I wanna do?
• 25:56
  We only have so much time to do it.
• 25:59
  How do we make it meaningful?" And that's really what Masonry's been to me.
• 26:03
  very introspective, contemplative.
• 26:06
  It's helped me make sense of what I'm, what I'm doing as a human being What's one lesson you're still trying to learn?
• 26:17
  I definitely keep going back to that, uh, that 24-inch gauge.
• 26:22
  I- that is one of, again, one of my vices.
• 26:25
  I, uh, I, I keep taking on more and more, and I know people, you know, really worry about, you know, burnout, you know?
• 26:32
  You- You're doing too much, man uh, you're doing way too much, and I agree.
• 26:36
  Yes.
• 26:37
  But somebody's gotta do it, and that's the, that's the frustrating part.
• 26:40
  You just have so much love for everything, and, uh, you know, you really wanna put your all into it.
• 26:45
  That- that's how I've always been.
• 26:46
  I, I've never wanted to join something or be a part of something if I'm not willing to give it everything that I can, and I kind of approach all of life that way, family, everything.
• 26:56
  It's like I wanna give as much as I possibly can.
• 27:00
  but again, there's not enough time, so what do I sacrifice?
• 27:02
  Sleep.
• 27:03
  Is that good?
• 27:04
  Absolutely not.
• 27:05
  No, it's not.
• 27:06
  But you also have a one-year-old.
• 27:07
  Right.
• 27:08
  So I'm already sacrificing that a- What is life like as a dad of such a youngster right now?
• 27:14
  You know, it, it's, uh, it's great.
• 27:16
  It's, it's very busy.
• 27:17
  Um, lots of new things and firsts.
• 27:19
  Um, my partner and I are fortunate in that, um, we're also, uh, raising, um, his younger brother who- who's 16.
• 27:27
  Um, so we kind of have both ends of the spectrum a little bit.
• 27:30
  Um, he just started his, uh, his first day of sophomore year at Denfeld in, in Duluth.
• 27:34
  Oh.
• 27:35
  And, uh, yeah, and then our one-year-old, so we're kinda...
• 27:38
  We're, we're learning about both, which is great, and I think every day is a learning experience, and that's all right.
• 27:46
  earlier we talked about lodge culture.
• 27:49
  How are we disagreeing agreeably?
• 27:53
  Does everyone like each other?
• 27:56
  There is no utopia.
• 27:58
  There is no Masonic Narnia where everything is perfect without some sort of a challenge.
• 28:05
  How important is it to stay focused on that trajectory and not get bogged down in the past?
• 28:13
  I really believe the world is in search of what the Masonic experience can provide, a place where we leave our politics, we leave our arguments outside of the lodge room.
• 28:24
  We get to know one another in an authentic way We're committed to being serviceable.
• 28:31
  I think a lot of interest exists because people are looking to be told what to do But Freemasonry is about what are you willing to do to work on yourself to become that best version of yourself And people are tired of hearing me say the word authentic, but it has to be.
• 28:50
  It can't be faked, contrived, or disingenuous.
• 28:56
  My pal Chris said,"People are desperate for authenticity, but they're allergic to sincerity." I think something that we need to be, uh, extremely aware of is that, Freemasonry is such a beautiful system.
• 29:12
  There, there's so much to, to look at and, and, and so much meaning there.
• 29:16
  but it's ultimately a system of human beings who aren't perfect and who struggle, and, uh, I think it was meant to be that way.
• 29:25
  but it provides a, a forum to, to work through those things and, like you were saying, to, to become better people, and that's really what we're all trying to do, Masons and non-Masons alike.
• 29:35
  Um, we're kind of all on that same, same journey.
• 29:38
  How do we get better?
• 29:39
  but How do we live our Masonry?
• 29:42
  Right.
• 29:42
  How- Is, is that important?
• 29:43
  That, I, I think it's extremely important.
• 29:47
  we go through these profound shared experiences that bring us really closely together in the lodge.
• 29:52
  and for some people, that's where it stops, and I think that is, an error.
• 29:59
  and I, I think we really need to, to reimagine that in, you know, what d- what does the lodge symbolize, right?
• 30:06
  So we talk about, um, you know, the human being.
• 30:10
  We talk about the world, right?
• 30:12
  So all of our lessons are, we're, we're being, we're being taught these, um, moral and ethical truths, right?
• 30:19
  And we're taught to bring those out into the world, not advertising we're Freemasons, but by living the tenets of our fraternity, by helping our neighbor, by giving to the poor.
• 30:32
  and in that sense, the lodge is everywhere, and yeah, Freemasonry is really giving to the world.
• 30:40
  And yeah, I think we really need to do more of that by, by living our, our Masonry.
• 30:43
  I think there's some people that never come to lodge that are living Masonry more than people that, that do, and that's no knock on anybody.
• 30:50
  Everybody's situation is different.
• 30:52
  but- That's interesting, though.
• 30:53
  Do you think there are brothers that are maybe not an officer at their lodge, maybe they can't attend their stated meeting because of a busy schedule, kids, work, you name it, but they're still living it in their corner of the world, right?
• 31:08
  Is that possible?
• 31:09
  Absolutely, yeah.
• 31:11
  And when, when I, when I think about, um, you know, some of the work that we do, in, in Masonry, a lot of it is, is memory work.
• 31:19
  A lot of it is internal.
• 31:20
  And I, I don't think we're ever without a lodge.
• 31:24
  I think it's always inside of us, and we can always, you know, visualize what's going on.
• 31:31
  we don't have to have a common gavel or a, or a plumb to, to, you know, think about what those things mean and how we're applying them to our day-to-day interactions with other people.
• 31:42
  It really could be as simple as that, keeping those tools in mind and how they apply to our situation, whatever we're facing in life.
• 31:51
  It, it really is quite a playbook.
• 31:54
  for life, is it not?
• 31:55
  Am I alone in that?
• 31:56
  Sometimes I get, I go into a rabbit hole and think about we've been gifted with a blueprint for a happier, more harmonious world, but we have to do the work.
• 32:06
  And that's more than just going through a ceremony or hearing a value teaching or hearing a lecture All of those things are very, very important, but that is not the pinnacle of the experience.
• 32:18
  The work begins after that.
• 32:21
  Absolutely.
• 32:22
  Yeah, I, I think all of our symbols, all of our tools, they're touchstones, they're, they're meant to draw us back to a specific experience that, that we went through in our ritual.
• 32:33
  And to feel and hear and sense what was happening at that time, and then to kind of reflect that into what we're going through in life.
• 32:44
  no, I think that's a really good point.
• 32:48
  A lot of lodges struggle because they become one-dimensional.
• 32:52
  It's common.
• 32:54
  There are lodges that are very, very heavily focused on community engagement, and that's kind of their only thing.
• 33:01
  Others are deep dive into ritual, esoteric study, philosophy.
• 33:07
  Again, nothing wrong with that, but that becomes a little lopsided.
• 33:11
  And some are just about social time, and that's important too, but, uh, where do we find a balance of all three of those, to have all of those boxes checked?
• 33:20
  Now, that doesn't mean we're trying to be everything to everyone, but those three core pieces of the foundation of authentic friendship and brotherhood, personal growth through education, through sharing information, through study, contemplation, and then the community engagement.
• 33:38
  It's not easy.
• 33:40
  No, definitely not.
• 33:41
  Different lodges have different strengths, and, uh, that's why it's important to kinda learn more about a lodge before you get involved with them.
• 33:48
  Good point.
• 33:48
  Um, but I, I do think, and, you know, this is just my opinion, but I, I do think a balance of, of all of those things is really important because we, we, like you were saying, attract people who are interested in all of those three things.
• 34:01
  They might not be interested in, in all of them, uh, or they might join for one reason and figure out,"Oh, wow, I, I had no idea this philosophy was so profound.
• 34:11
  I love that about this, but I would have never known if I wouldn't have joined for the brotherhood and fellowship." It's come up time and again, the concept of right-sizing.
• 34:25
  What are your thoughts on that?
• 34:28
  my take, I would love for Freemasonry to continue to grow because I, I truly believe that it's a philosophy that would benefit all people.
• 34:37
  but I, I do, I, I do know that, you know, membership trends are on a decline.
• 34:43
  Um, I think that there was a huge boom of, like there is, uh, after world wars, different world events like that.
• 34:49
  Yes.
• 34:50
  and there is something to be said about the intimacy of small groups.
• 34:55
  so I, I, I do think that, um, a lot of people, joined the fraternity and, uh, and, and now we're-- We were never-- You know, maybe I would love to us to, uh, for us to continue to grow and continue to be that big, but I don't think it was ever really meant to be that way.
• 35:12
  Like, yes, the principles, the philosophy are meant for, I think, are meant for all people.
• 35:18
  But, we really grew strangely during those times, and we were, our, our l- uh, a lot of our lodges can't sustain membership that large.
• 35:26
  I, I think, uh, some other jurisdictions have really cool ideas about, you know, special interest lodges.
• 35:32
  Um- Yeah you know, once your lodge hits, oh, uh, maybe 28 people,"Oh, that's too big.
• 35:35
  Split off, make another one." Um, just because you're able to develop super intimate friendships and relationships with a smaller amount of people than, than you could with, you know, sitting in a room with 100 people.
• 35:48
  The longer I go on this journey, the more value I see in smaller being better, because when someone isn't present, it's noticed, it's, it's missed.
• 35:59
  I'm gonna call that brother or text him and not say,"Where the hell were you?" But,"Hey, we missed you tonight.
• 36:04
  How are you?
• 36:05
  Everything cool?" Sure something came up.
• 36:07
  You can't be at every meeting, obviously.
• 36:10
  But those lodges that are so big, it's almost like a mega church.
• 36:15
  How do you get to know anybody in a meaningful way that you have a connection that if your presence, if you're not there, that you're missed?
• 36:25
  Numbers won't save us We had a high water mark in Minnesota in the late'50s, early'60s.
• 36:31
  It was something like 70,000.
• 36:33
  The world's a different place now.
• 36:36
  The concept of civic involvement, joining, not everybody's a joiner, and that's okay, too.
• 36:43
  The three-month degree cycle in Minnesota came up in the early 1920s when we initiated over 12,000 new members in one year.
• 36:53
  We had to accommodate the volume.
• 36:55
  So it became more of an assembly line, a degree mill.
• 37:00
  perhaps as we look back, here I am saying we shouldn't be, be laboring the past, look to our trajectory, but the reality of that was that we went-- we had to go fast, and the opportunity to learn and look at this as a long-term lifetime experience was very likely watered down In today's world, men are looking for purpose.
• 37:22
  They're looking for something to do to give back to the greater good, and the Masonic Lodge of today can provide that and more if we are committed to providing a quality experience It all comes back to culture to me.
• 37:39
  Nowhere is perfect.
• 37:41
  again, there's no Masonic Narnia that everything is just blissful.
• 37:46
  But lodges that are focused on that connection Brothers that are open to address small problems in their lives or in their lodge while they're still small, The cost of dealing with an issue rarely gets cheaper with time.
• 38:05
  That procrastination will turn an uncomfortable thing into an unavoidable thing Just saying all the words, right?
• 38:14
  Saying the word brotherhood.
• 38:15
  If that becomes abstract, if that is somewhat of a murky concept to a Mason, that's not good.
• 38:23
  Yeah.
• 38:24
  No, exactly.
• 38:24
  Brother, brother in title but not in action.
• 38:27
  Yeah.
• 38:28
  No, I, uh, we're, we're certainly called to be, uh, family and to be a community.
• 38:35
  and like you were saying, I think the, the smaller groups are more conducive to that.
• 38:38
  Um, that's not to say it can't be done in larger groups.
• 38:41
  No, for sure.
• 38:42
  but no, that's, that's really, uh, that's really what it's all about, growing together, learning together, um, experiencing life together.
• 38:49
  It's hard to experience life alone or to feel like you're alone, and you can, you can still-- You know, you can have other connections but still feel like you're doing things alone, and I think one of the great things Masonry does and can do is to give you a community or, or someone to experience life with Look at what the last few years have given us.
• 39:13
  Work remote, food delivered immediately and on demand, entertainment infinite.
• 39:20
  You don't have to leave the house for much if you don't want to.
• 39:25
  that hollow connection through social media, through other virtual platforms is proving not to be fulfilling to the majority of the world.
• 39:34
  And yet nobody really stands up and says,"Hey, I'm lonely," or,"Hey, I need to get out of the house more." I feel like we're on the precipice of just a tremendous opportunity, not to just grow in numbers, but to attract the man of today who truly wants to be a better version of himself, who truly wants the connection to share when life happens.
• 39:59
  That doesn't mean baring all of your deepest, darkest secrets to a stranger.
• 40:03
  But y- you-- It's like you talked about those mentors, the, the friends that you've made, and I-- same for me.
• 40:09
  Those are trusted confidants that when things go sideways, I can call them.
• 40:14
  No judgment.
• 40:15
  They're gonna listen.
• 40:16
  They, they can't fix me.
• 40:18
  We need someone to provide, when you get those intergenerational friendships, what would you have told yourself in my shoes at my age when you were going through maybe a similar thing?
• 40:28
  The details and the culture, big priorities.
• 40:34
  And I, I think a lot of it, too, going back to an earlier, a, a point that you made a little bit ago, we live in a world of instant gratification.
• 40:43
  that's not to say that that instant gratification necessarily diminishes the value of things.
• 40:51
  But in my experience, like I, I kind of...
• 40:54
  if I don't have to do much work to accomplish something, is it-- am I really proud of that?
• 40:59
  Has that really done something for me?
• 41:01
  Did I learn something in doing it?
• 41:03
  And I, I think one of the beauties of the Lodge experience is putting in your best effort, um, stretching yourself a little bit, doing something that might be a little bit challenging but knowing that there's a great support network to help you on the way.
• 41:20
  And those are, uh, environments where growth, uh, happens for people.
• 41:27
  Especial- It's especially done that for me What is one Masonic opinion you'd be willing to fight someone over?
• 41:38
  Figuratively speaking, of course.
• 41:40
  Sure.
• 41:40
  I am a strong believer that, uh, education is one of the core, uh, original purposes of the craft.
• 41:49
  I- Tell, tell us more.
• 41:51
  I really think, you know, Freemasonry was born out of a, um, an era where, where people in society were getting together to discuss things and to learn from each other.
• 42:01
  And I, I think, at least for me, my Masonic experience would be very much lacking if w- I wasn't going to presentations or, or learning something in lodge or, or going to a, at events where, um, you know, different unique perspectives were discussed.
• 42:16
  There are some people out there, um, that, that get, uh, bored if a meeting goes 10 minutes longer than it should- Yes'cause somebody's giving a talk.
• 42:24
  But I thrive on that, and that's what I joined Ma- in part, that's what I joined Masonry to do, to learn, to grow How do you feel about an education section of a stated meeting being 20 minutes max?
• 42:38
  And if you want more, I have a handout or a QR code to read more.
• 42:42
  Yeah.
• 42:42
  I, I'm all, I'm all for that.
• 42:44
  Honestly, I would be fine with much longer, but I know- That's right not all people are, and I think you sometimes have to get a little, a little creative in how that's done.
• 42:53
  I've- Mm-hmm I've seen really great, examples where, uh, you know, a talk is given during a dinner before the meeting, and- Yeah I think people really appreciate that as well.
• 43:03
  Balance, right?
• 43:04
  Absolutely.
• 43:04
  We w- we all want the education, but maybe 75 minutes of something is a little bit much, and five minutes isn't enough.
• 43:12
  But find a, a sweet spot where here's the crux of what I'm presenting.
• 43:17
  Here's a QR code to read more.
• 43:19
  Bring a handout, whatever would, would work the best.
• 43:22
  I know education is a, a passionate subject for you.
• 43:26
  What is the worst book you've ever read?
• 43:31
  Well, I, I don't know if I could dub something the worst book I ever read.
• 43:34
  Um- Or what l- what was a letdown?
• 43:36
  What did you think, like,"I thought this was gonna be more..." I could maybe tie this into, uh, masonry a little bit, um, in that I've done a considerable re- uh, a considerable amount of reading of our, our lodge minute books, right?
• 43:48
  And I love them to death.
• 43:50
  They're amazing.
• 43:51
  Um, I, I just, I love learning from them.
• 43:54
  but I, I realize that such a small amount of our history is captured in the minutes, and, so many more stories and information, um, is actually held by the people that lived it.
• 44:07
  and so by going through that and coming to that realization, our, our lodge has, um, really been picking up in, uh, interviewing, um, the older members of our lodge.
• 44:16
  Cool.
• 44:16
  'Cause that's really where you get the cool stories, yeah, they weren't always, uh, putting to writing some of the, some of the fun things that they were doing on the record.
• 44:25
  I've heard it said by way too many brothers that they are tired of learning these cool stories about a brother after he's passed away.
• 44:33
  There, there's so much more to be shared of our life journey, legacy, life experience that we just don't know all the time of the brother sitting right next to us, and that can be said in the workplace, too.
• 44:45
  Speaking of workplace, what is the most difficult part of your job?
• 44:50
  Oh my gosh.
• 44:51
  Um, I love my job so much.
• 44:54
  it can be challenging too.
• 44:59
  see.
• 44:59
  The worst part about my job, um, it's a lot of desk work, uh, if I'm being honest.
• 45:04
  You know, I do get out in the field and do some cool things like that, lots of walking around in the woods.
• 45:09
  but a lot of it seems to be, you know, answering emails or, um, you know, meetings with people, which are great, you know.
• 45:17
  I, I love those too.
• 45:18
  but I would love to maybe spend a little bit less time sitting down and more time out doing field work and things like that.
• 45:29
  What are you sick of seeing online?
• 45:33
  I think I could do without, like arguments and, you know, people butting heads.
• 45:39
  there's a lot of politics online that I really have no interest in.
• 45:43
  I actually do a lot of reflection on how much I, I am online and, uh, I oftentimes tell myself,"I would do a lot better if I just was not on here as much." another thing I'm trying to work on, I would love to, to do without that.
• 45:56
  I- it's so much better talking to people in, in real life and having conversations.
• 46:02
  and I think it's all too-- it's, it's way too easy to just throw out a hot take or an opinion about something on, on the internet and feel like there's no fallout for it.
• 46:11
  One of my favorites, speaking of, is seeing someone who will post something that you know is going to be inflammatory, and they preface it by saying,"I just can't not say something about this." You know what?
• 46:23
  Actually, you can't.
• 46:24
  You don't have to.
• 46:25
  You really don't have to.
• 46:26
  Now, in that case, call a friend.
• 46:29
  Let's get into a conversation offline about some issue.
• 46:31
  The world can be crazy, yes.
• 46:34
  But putting it on Facebook or TikTok or on your Instagram story, no, it's not worth it.
• 46:40
  yeah, some things are better left just unsaid or like you were saying, said to somebody privately.
• 46:45
  yeah, crazy world out there online.
• 46:49
  What's the most regrettable decision you've ever made?
• 46:53
  In fact, let's couple that with what's the best decision you've ever made?
• 46:58
  Uh, most regrettable decision I've ever made.
• 47:01
  Um, let's see.
• 47:03
  I, I do a lot of reflecting on my interactions with other people.
• 47:07
  Like, I constantly do that.
• 47:08
  I'm like,"Oh, did I..." You know, how was what I said interpreted by that person?" I, I overthink it way too much.
• 47:15
  It's a me thing.
• 47:16
  I'm like,"Oh, did I say something that offended them?
• 47:18
  I really hope not," or I, I- How did they, how did they misinterpret a- Right.
• 47:22
  How did they m- yeah, exactly.
• 47:24
  And I-- So that's something that I'm always worried about, um, with communication, making sure that that's important.
• 47:28
  Um, so yeah, I, I would have to say it's, it's, uh, probably in line with that.
• 47:34
  yeah, just over-worrying about interactions with other people.
• 47:38
  You know, did I do the right thing in that situation?
• 47:40
  Did I make the right choice?
• 47:41
  Yeah.
• 47:41
  What could I have said differently?
• 47:42
  Yeah.
• 47:43
  Exactly.
• 47:44
  Yeah.
• 47:44
  I, I think on the flip side, um, I think I've made a lot of really great decisions.
• 47:50
  certainly one of the best ones that I've made is, meeting my partner.
• 47:55
  Uh, I think that's just been fantastic.
• 47:57
  lot of really great things going on.
• 47:59
  you know, having our daughter was super great for us, too.
• 48:02
  Um, I, yeah, those are definitely the best decisions I've made.
• 48:07
  Evan Schroeder, I appreciate you making the trip from Duluth to have this conversation today, and look forward to crossing paths with you, whether in a Masonic setting or elsewhere in the near future.
• 48:16
  Awesome.
• 48:17
  Thanks so much, Reed.
• 48:17
  I really appreciated it