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Leading With Love: Accountability And Change · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Danny Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have a great guest with us.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Patty Tutalu is a retired U.S.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Guard commander, U.S.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Coast Guard commander, consultant, and writer exploring leadership, belonging, resilience, trauma, and healing in real and practical ways.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Drawing on more than two decades of military service, she believes that the best leadership is grounded in humanity, empathy, and the willingness to confront both our strengths and our struggles.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Through candid conversation and reflective insight, her work invites listeners to pause, think differently, and consider how we show up for ourselves and for one another in our lives and our leadership.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Petty is the founder of Titalo Consultants, where she partners with organizations to drive meaningful system-level cultural change, particularly in the areas of leadership development and sexual assault and sexual harassment prevention.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's also a co-founder of WAVES, Women of Veteran Executives, and regularly hosts leadership and reflection retreats that blend strategy, self-awareness, and community.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Informed by her military experience, training in holistic counseling, and advanced education and public leadership from Harvard, Patty's mission is to help people and organizations create environments where everyone can feel safe, valued, and empowered to lead.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Patty.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm honored to be here.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So 20 years in the Coast Guard.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, I agree with your leadership philosophy.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is about humanity, empathy, and other things.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into some of that.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: But so you served 20 years in the Coast Guard.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we don't get a lot of coasties on the show, so I'm glad, glad we got one.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh I in fact, I never even met a Coast Guard service member until I was at the Sergeant Major Academy in the Army.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so, but you know, the Army and Coast Guard don't tend to travel in the same circles.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So 20 years retired at commander, I'm sure you had lots of great experiences in the Coast Guard.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, first I just want to make a point about being a unicorn, um, being in the Coast Guard.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to go to Quantigo Marine Corps base one day for a meeting, and I and their numbered buildings are not intuitive.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I go up to this person at the smoking kit and I said, Hey, can you tell me where this building is?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, he's like, sure, sure, sure.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'll just take you there.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm heading up that way too.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Okay.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's meanwhile, he's like saluting, doesn't know what to salute.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was all awkward and like confused, and then he stops and he says, Ma'am, I'll have to ask you, what are you?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was just hysterical, like this this poor kid, like has never he had no idea what it what to do, how to act.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, dude, I'm chill.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're not like the Marine Corps.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the salute, but let's keep going.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, so I've been and I've worked in different places throughout my career where I was kind of the unicorn, both at the Pentagon, and then I did a tour with the Navy.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was always interesting to be the the one to represent the entire service, so to speak.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, my the Coast Guard, oh it was it was a lot of growth, I would say is how to sum it up.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of learning about not only myself, but about leadership, uh people, which is actually one of the main reasons why I joined was to sort of get a different perspective than I had.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in western Pennsylvania and um very, you know, a small town, but also like not very diverse, and not a lot of it was a lot of group think going on there.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just always wanted to just see the world, not to be cliche, but and so part of that was I wanted to learn more about different cultures and different people, and it's just always been a real passion of mine is to um it's kind of like what you're doing is like what's your story?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: What motivates you?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: What's your purpose, you know, all of that kind of stuff, and and how people see the world from sort of from their own lens.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, my career was not a ton of operations.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did one tour afloat, and then after that, I did a couple tours, um like a command center, which is kind of operational in the standpoint of coordinating search and rescue and you know, law enforcement operations from shore.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: But then I sort of shifted into more of the human resources internal to the Coast Guard perspective, um, and DOD for that matter.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: My tour at the Pentagon was about military um compensation policy.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in more of the policy and execution of the policy um standpoint for for for most of the most of my career.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that sort of tailored my, I would say my passion um for the work I do currently.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um because while I was in the Coast Guard, I was that person who people would come to with their problems.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and still to this day I cannot go to the grocery store without somebody telling me their random problems.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I don't know, an energy or something that um I don't know.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've been working on it, but I feel very blessed though that people will tell me um tell me their stories.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that, I I can't I can't just hear a story and not take action on it.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And throughout my career, I heard stories of injustice, I heard stories of abuse, I heard stories of crimes actually.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I said you couldn't just hear them over and over without doing something.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that really informed a lot of my career and the career choices I made and which positions I went into.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: The last tour of which was I was the gender policy advisor and in the Office of Diversity and Inclusion.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in that office, um, the the second I arrived, I said, let's start, let's start working on some of these uh women's issues, particularly.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we started with a women's retention study, and so really get some good quality data and really quantitative data, but more of the qualitative data of understanding what is going on for service women um in the Coast Guard, what is their experience like?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they thinking about leaving the Coast Guard?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do we how do we make adjustments to policies and environments and cultures so that we can retain more women?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um that was sort of my I guess my summary of my career path and then and then what I did at the end and now leads me to what I'm doing now.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we'll get into into uh what you're doing now, all about that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think when I uh think about so many of the women that I've interviewed or worked with or helped or counseled or whatever, I think about how many of them would have had full careers or at least certainly had more years, done more years than they did, if not for the harassment, the assaults, the all that stuff, the cultural issues.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know the military has just missed out on so many brilliant people.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant people who are just as dedicated as the men.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I find that many men are so driven by careerism, they're and yet many of the women, and I I'm not making too broad of a I mean, it's women that are careers too, and all that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing wrong with wanting to get promoted and move up and have you know great influence and power, make more money.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing wrong with any of that stuff.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: But just like so many men are just like that's all they care about is the next promotion, da-da-da.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Even commanders who were like, you know, because I I served in the chaplain corps for 20 years, I was also in the infantry for 10 years, so I did over 30 years in the army on both like polar opposites, one about killing people and one about saving people.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I did kind of all of it, but um, you know, just I remember one cam at commander publicly, he was a good commander.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: He actually was a smart guy, he was able to really think system, he was he was kind of a he was able to make stuff happen, right?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: But he really didn't care at all about the soldiers.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: The only reason he did anything for them, gave them passes, gave them leads, or whatever.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: He understood that if you piss them off at bad enough, they won't work for you.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no like actual care.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: He just knew like you should not make soldiers angry or screw them over because they screw you over, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very it was very self-serving.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at the same time, he's a really good commander in the sense of like what the army wants commanders to do stuff.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but just so many women, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: That like, and and you must have seen that too, or or in your study and your work that like how many women are we losing?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Women who are dedicated, smart, who want you know, career success because of what's happened to them or the way they were treated.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um whenever we did that study, uh, we you know, we came up with all these reasons why women are considering leaving service.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, every time I would go in to brief senior leaders, they would always say, Well, tell me what the number one reason is.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what what I need to do to fix this problem.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want the low-hanging fruit, you know, all of those type of things.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my response was, first of all, we will not, we will not rank these because there's no way to rank them.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, the the study, the research does not show that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this was all this was in collaboration with Rian Corporation.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, you know, it wasn't just Patty saying this.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was a bunch of professionals, and we would we would sit down and we'd talk about this because the bottom line is is it's it's death by a thousand cuts.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's you know, I used to say it's everything from getting in trouble because your hair wasn't properly secured in the two-inch bun, or and then the next day it's you know, something else, like you know, whether you know, another uniform item.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not even like, and then and then the next day it could be an actual sexual assault, you know, there's there's a thousand different things that could be into play, and there's a point whenever you just say, I'm done.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, I cannot stand another day, and it's that final cut that puts you over the edge, and so that's kind of why we couldn't ever put rank order them or anything.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then whenever it comes to the solutions, you can start to chip away at the every issue, but really what you have to look at is the whole system.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how are all of these pieces of the puzzle coming together to create this environment where, like you said, the the example of the commander, he's in a culture, he's playing it perfectly right.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's a stellar in the eyes of the army, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, because that's the culture that has that's the system, and he's like, Okay, I'll see the system, I know how to play this, but there's no value placed on like how he treats his people.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, true value, I should say.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's no true value.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know that they put that usually on the evaluation systems, but how they truly evaluate is another story.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: But um so yeah, I think um you know it's it's a really complex I always say it's really complex, yet not at all.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we would just pause and care about our people, right, how much how much that would go long, long way for not only and not only just retention, but mission execution.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the piece that it's you know, it's it's a ripple effect.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: You if you if you treat your people well that leader can make the United States of America a safer place.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's they they never make those leaps to the ripple effect of how that happens.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I think you're exactly right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there are a lot of leaders, and I wanted to start naming people, I'm not going to, but there are a lot of leaders just that hate cultural stuff.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, unless it unless it means talking about more PT or going to the field more or whatever, write uniform stuff, whatever.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: But like when you talk about these soft, quote unquote soft cultural issues, like harassment and blue jokes and the way you treat people and all this, they hate that stuff because they're like, we need to train for, we need like those are mutually exclusive.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't train for combat and also like not be an a-hole at the same time.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was in the infantry, and you'd have to actually survey my previous soldiers or whatever, but but even in the 82nd Airborne Division with infantry squads, scout platoons, like I did all the elite stuff in the 82nd Airborne Division, where we were all crass, uh rude.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly there were no women that's around us in the 90s, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we were certainly sexist and all, but but it was a really rough environment.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was all about killing people.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was just like that's what we were trying to do.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was infantry all the way.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I always treated, and we were we were highly effective, like my teams and squads were highly effective, and I always treated people like they were equals.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: I always treated them like I wanted to be treated.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it is my religious upbringing and stuff, but also I think because I grew up being bullied a lot and that kind of stuff, that I just I have a sensitivity to how other people how you know sometimes I don't recognize how I'm making people feel, but at least consciously trying to lead the right way.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember a team leader, it's not just about me, but I'm making a point.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can be in this very kind of environment and still not harass people.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I was a squad leader and one of my team leaders, we had a team meeting, you know, end of the day, squad meeting and blah blah blah, and sent them off.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, How do you do that?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, What do you mean?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: He said, They all listen to you, like they actually cared what you're saying.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm meeting with my team, it's just like this totally different thing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this guy was a ranger, he was, you know, he was a great paratrooper badass, you know, but he had no like people skills at all.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so my my answer was like, I don't know, I just treat them like they're equals, and you know, because they are as people, it's just that I've got more rank, more responsibility, and so on.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely get paid more than you, but we're in this together kind of thing, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is no exclusivity, you can treat people well because then they're loyal, they'll sacrifice for you, they'll go above and beyond.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that throughout my 32-year career that when people like you because you respect them and care for them, they'll do almost anything for you, you know.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in in an in teams and environments where you have to lay your life on the line for each other, and I don't care if you're admin or infantry or artillery or medics, it's still the same thing.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're sacrificing our lives, our our physical well-being, because if you serve 20 years in the service, you're you got all kinds of physical stuff going on, our mental health, all this stuff we're putting on the line for a country and for each other.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just if you take care of each other emotionally, mentally, physically, you're gonna have a tighter team.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And why that's so hard for people to get?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just I don't know.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think some of our leaders are not very smart when it comes to you know, because they get enculturated in this in this turning the greens, the reds to green, and making the numbers.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about these metrics, shooting the targets or whatever.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get into soft skill stuff, it's like people want to bother with it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and there are a lot of great commanders at all levels that do get it and do care and are good.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had a bunch of them in my career, so it's not true that they're all bad, but I mean the ones that don't get it, you just want to go, what is so hard for you to get this, you know.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so true.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I I often, when you were talking about that, I thought about a time whenever there was a government shutdown and it lasted a while.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this wasn't the most recent one.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is when I was on active duty, I forgot a year.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um, you know, it's a it was a significant time, and and service members weren't getting paid, like the Coast Guard wasn't getting paid.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember like and I was reflecting this back to somebody who was not military, and I said, There's a time as a leader when you need to say to your people, it's time to suck it up, and yeah, you're now in a volunteer status 100%, you're not getting paid.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But we have a job to do, and we and we are dedicated to that job and we're gonna do it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the difference is is if you loved your people, truly loved them up until that point, it wasn't a big deal for them to come and work every day for free, essentially.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they got back pay, but um that's a lot to ask of a person.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and then to also check in with them, like how how are you doing through this?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you do you need do you need to like give them the resources?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because some people do live pay paycheck to paycheck.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And but it was really striking to me that it was like for this person who is in a different industry, um, they could not understand how to navigate that kind of situation.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but it starts so much sooner than when that situation happens, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: You got to instill that trust and that love.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've and I've only recently started to say the word love, but that is truly what it is.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: We need to spread love to our people.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if they know they are we have our back their back and that their love they'll come back and they'll they'll put 100% in every day um because they know that we're gonna take care of them.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so I just wanted to share that little a little bit about it's hard to lead sometimes, like in these situations, but um good leaders can can establish that opposite front and it it'll carry them through those tough times.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um I think one of the challenges for leaders that really care about people is balancing that accountability um with compassion.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I see people that lean too heavy on compassion and everything's okay, it's okay.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's so much forgiveness, which forgiveness is good, but you know, it's there's no accountability, and then you have um the ones that are doing the work well, then pretty soon it's like, well, I don't know why I'm trying so hard, because nothing happens to this guy, and he sucks at his job, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm doing everything I can.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's no extra benefit for me.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, so in your work, uh as we're transitioning to like the work you do now with the executives and stuff like that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you is that part of the conversation?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you help them do?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that come out because you're talking about humanity and commandment leadership and that kind of thing with accountability?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: How does your work play into that?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I love accountability topics.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for bringing that up.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because holding people accountable is love.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it absolutely 100% is love, just like your children.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you gonna let your children just run amok?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're gonna you're gonna discipline them, you're gonna, well, you should be, anyways, you should be holding them accountable and teaching them rules.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And but not only that, but like for and not to make it oversimplify it for children, is but when you think about a child, what does the accountability do for a child and rules do for a child?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Create safety.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think to your point about like, well, this person could get away with it and this person can't, that that is not a good.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: System of accountability.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like once you have your set rules, you need to hold everybody to the same standard.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that is one thing during my career that I am still frustrated with, in particular the Coast Guard.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: The Coast Guard had a really rough full years recently where Operation Fouled Anchor was released, which is a report that they tried to cover up, but somebody leaked it to Congress.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And basically Operation Fouled Anchor was an investigation by our investigative service to look at sexual assault over a period of time at the Coast Guard Academy, over a couple of decades, I believe.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the number one thing that came out of that is the lack of accountability.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing: there was there is a set standard for how to work through these issues.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's a UCMJ, there's all these different things.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what the problem is, is people with accountability is people don't have the to use your word, moral, they don't have the moral courage to to to turn in their friend.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, being a very, very small service, everyone knows each other.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if I had a dollar for every time I would sit down with a senior leader and they would say, But Patty, they're a really good guy, and they served, yeah, they've been serving for 25 years and they have a flawless record.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Yes, sir, I understand that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But they committed a crime, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And because they committed that crime, it's time to let them go.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not taking anything away from what they did for the service, the country, all of that.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: But today they committed a crime and they need to be held accountable.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is, is they are not, they are too enmeshed in that relationship to actually say, hey, friend of mine, for 20 years, I gotta, I gotta hold you accountable.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and that that's a real problem.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But here's an example I'm gonna give, and I'm gonna try, I might have to like make sure I I want to make sure that this is uh I'm gonna be very general with it so that the the identity is not revealed.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: But there was there was a commander that was reported to to my office at a time and very erratic behavior, very abusive behavior um at his unit.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um to the point where I actually would have a line outside my office of of people on that staff that would come to my office and because I was in work life at the time, and they would say, Well, you got to do something about this wonder.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's off the off the charts mentally ill.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's not well.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it took quite some time, but it ended basically with with the person having an altercation in a bar, and they got relieved of that duty.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: They were never really held accountable for all of the other stuff they did, the the careers they destroyed while at that unit, the people's, I mean, everything from like making a service member um who had a fractured back, the commander overrode the doctor and made them sail with the fractured back.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so everything from that to um verbally abusing someone while on watch in front of everyone.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So very just horrible stuff, and almost stuff you couldn't you couldn't even like imagine, right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does that even make sense?
• 25:34
  unknown: Right.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is what I mean by accountability is love.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those actions were a cry for help, and nobody viewed it as that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: They viewed it as, oh, he's a good guy, he has a good career.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, he is crying out for help through those behaviors.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward years later, I get a call from my former captain who was at that unit with me, and he said, Patty, you'll never believe what happened.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: That person died by suicide, and two days earlier his wife died by suicide, which is interesting.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like how that I don't know what the circumstances were there.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought to myself, imagine, imagine if there was a different route for that person.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if accountability, because accountability is truly love.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody is behaving in a way that is criminal or abusive, or if we hold them accountable, we are we are maybe changing the trajectory of their life for the better.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of need to frame that, I think, in our culture in general.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is brilliant.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: That that is really one of the most brilliant things I've heard of Red in a long time, and it's it's really is true because um I think that piece we need to add, and the other pieces, you know, in I I come from very religious and my uh as I as I look at the Bible and I look at like in the old testament, all these laws and so on.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I have uh some friends that are rabbis, and I I'm not Jewish myself, but I read a lot of stuff um that they ask me to read, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think they have such a rich tradition of being able to understand God and why he has all these laws and so on, um, and what that's about.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and what I what I really learned is that God has all these laws and ways of behaving because we're so valuable to him, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: It shows our value.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we hold people accountable, we're saying, I love you and you're valuable, and I want to help you get on the right path so you don't hurt yourself, hurt other people, whatever, mess make a mess of your career.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're doing that early on, and I have to admit, like I um probably with my own soldiers, I in fact I know uh for a fact there were times I let them off the hook when I shouldn't have, trying to be compassionate and and all that.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if we if we are more um if we hold people accountable in love, not shaming them, not you know, and part of part of that is like understanding how flawed I am.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm correcting you, I'm coming at you from a perspective, hey, I got my own stuff to fix for sure, but I've noticed this about you.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let me help, how can we let me help you?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is needs to be corrected in love, not shame, and all that, and and from the valuable of you're too valuable to to let this continue.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: If we're doing that early on in someone's career, just like we do with children, then before they're in a position where they can totally destroy themselves or others, they're fixed, they're good, they're their characters been, you know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and I the final thing I'd say, because I really want to transition into a lot more specifically about the work you're doing now, but um, I just had a brain crap, forgot what I was gonna say.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we'll we'll move on now.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm sure it was brilliant, but it'll come to me later.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um just this accountability being important, and like you said, framing it and love, love for them, love for others, and then you know, and value and stuff.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: We do that early on.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: We help people in so many ways, then they help people, and in the end, you have a much more just uh good society.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's good for society as a whole, units organization, everything.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing bad about accountability, and there's nothing wrong.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as long as oh, the here, okay.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I remember what I was gonna say.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I also have seen um a disparage of justice.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: The lower your rank, the more likely you're gonna get the full brunt of the law, especially if it's sexual assault or something like that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you build up this protection, the shield, the higher rank you get, and especially officer corps versus NCOs, right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: But NCOs look out for each other, officers look out for each other.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're happy to destroy the i mean, NCOs really can't do anything to officers, but it you know, you look at something like Abu Grab, where the general gets to retire as a colonel and the NCOs go to prison, even though we teach every service teaches this that hey, you're as the leader, you're responsible for blah blah blah, but it's BS.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: 90% of the time, the leader, especially if they're a senior leader, like colonel or hire, lieutenant colonel hire, um, they're good, they're shielded.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: We find somebody else to destroy.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: We might destroy the sergeant major or the first sergeant or whatever, you know, sacrifice, get the sacrificial lamb taken care of, and we all move on, right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: When so all this stuff about you're responsible, blah blah blah, except when you do a crime, then we find somebody else to be responsible.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you've built up like some, you know, some buddies, some, some, some like protection, a career of 20 plus years, whatever it is, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: We so that's like there's a lot going on with accountability, and and a lot of it is executives, because I know you do a lot of executive coaching, um just being blind to their own like lack of of applying policies or whatever, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably some of that just lack of self-awareness that they're doing, you know, that they're not holding people accountable or they're not treating everybody the same or whatever.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like my in the Coast Guard, that was my experience as well is the more senior you are, the more protected you are.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a huge problem.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: But when you think about it, it's it makes complete sense because they're more attached to those people, they're more established.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's harder to call to to hold your friend uh accountable than it is to hold some somebody that's brand new to the to the Coast Guard, for example, that you don't necessarily know.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's enough distance in there that you're like, oh, okay, no problem.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: We can lose that person.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the person that I, you know, went to the academy with my bro over here, I can't get I can't do anything to them.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and that's what I think the biggest problem with operations about anger was was they were all it was that enmeshment that that needed to be untangled.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is too, like it's so easy to just rationalize.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's just with anything, and that's why, like, if you look at the the Jewish system, right?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's why rabbi only rabbis could determine, and and Sanhedrin courts, right, could determine um could rule on religious things because they knew the individual is too is gonna rationalize their way into a um it's okay, you know, even though that was theft, I was poor at this and that and the other, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: By the time you rationalize, you go, yeah, it's it's okay, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so anyway, just not a religious discussion.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'd like to do is go into the work you do now.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about your consulting a company, what you do, and and maybe like your how your experience in the Coast Guard maybe led you into this, if if so.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it definitely did.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So during my career, I worked a lot on sexual assault, sexual harassment, um, trying to make the culture better um for everyone, whether it be through policies that are written.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll give you a funny example.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I fought for was nail polish color.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I don't wear nail polish still to this day, I can care less about nail polish.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why it was so important was I was trying to get rid of the opportunities for people to get targeted.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: So women, for example, if you give them an opportunity, so if it's subject to the commander's uh um interpretation on what professional nail color is, yeah, they don't like that person, they will go after them.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with the hair regulations.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to always say, like, why do women have to wear their hair back?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why do what is the reason for that?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we have to have short, you know, if we have it down, it has to be short, a certain length.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to go to these uniform board meetings and say, and they would say, um, the bun size is two inches thick or something.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, why?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Give me the reason, give me the operational reason of why this is the case.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody could answer it, it's ridiculous.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I know it'd be like always follow up with uh is it seven minute abs or is it eight-minute abs?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: What are we talking about here?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: It does not really matter, just do the abs.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was one of those people that just questioned everything, and I've been that way since I was basically born, like my poor parents.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I just always question the status quo, um, especially when people are being hurt.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's no impact, I could care less about it.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but when people are being impacted, I have a I have an issue and I want to and I want to make the change.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so during my career, that's what I did.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And now on the outside, that's kind of what I'm doing as well.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I like to say that I also, and I this you won't find on my website, but but really what I'm trying to do is infuse systems that don't normally get a lot of love.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to infuse them with love.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and how that looks is is looking at all parts of the system and saying, how can we improve all of the different parts so that again that that that whole ecosystem is more welcoming, is higher functioning, is executing better because they're using every one of those team members to their fullest extent.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And every one of those team members feel like they are contributing to a to a greater purpose.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, and that's you know, I I would never start with that whenever I'm working with primarily I work with male dominated environments.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to like ease into it a little bit more.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: But essentially that's what that's what I'm doing is is is how can we hold the space for for everybody in the organization um to make the organization better?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so primarily I work with, I said male dominated, so maritime industry, it's two percent women uh worldwide.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that is definitely an uh space that I find very challenging, but also very um impactful, you know, being able to help them through some of these challenges.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I also love giving workshops um and trainings to different organizations.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've done a bunch of military trainings and workshops.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of them, one of them that I'm pretty passionate about is also feedback and how to give and receive feedback coming from a place of obviously you need to make it very concrete, but also coming from a place of good intention and knowing who you are as a person before you go and give the feedback.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: What are your biases?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: What are your what are your thoughts on different topics so that it can be effective feedback and to sort of open that door up to that dialogue between two people?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then and then I also do um women's retreats, which is really one of my passions.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I might venture into men's retreats as well.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, that's one thing that I'm kicking around, so stay tuned on that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: But um we're I think it was 2023, the Surgeon General did a report on loneliness, and the US is at an epid epidemic level um for loneliness, and men are worse than women when it comes to being lonely.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love doing retreats because one of the things we do is come together in community and collaboration, and um that seems to really have a profound impact on people as they leave the retreat.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they not only have a better sense of self and purpose, but they also have a community that really truly sees them.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to hide, they can just show up exactly who they are and then take that out into the world.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of an overview of all of the things for my consulting business.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that's really great.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh one thing men should understand is that if you make life better for women in your organization, your life would be better too.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we're just so we're just so like enculturated in the idea that it's about metrics, it's about numbers, it's about success, it's about achieving, it's about dollars.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I am learning so much getting into like I worked with Rabbi Sachs for uh years ago in in when we're together in the army.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I find now, like, even even now, I just gain a lot of wisdom from conversations we've had and so on and so forth.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and one of the most interesting ones, uh you could agree with this or not, but it but it it has like really practical implications.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: What we're saying is that you know, Orthodox Jews believe that God determines in advance how much money you're gonna make that year, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so no matter what you do or don't do, you're not gonna cross that line, right?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna make more because he is determined that's how much you've you've merited, right?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's how much that you've you've either through your labor, your work, all I mean, who knows?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's a million things he takes in fact.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not telling you how I know how God calculates that, but he does, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: He figures out so no matter what you do, you can't make more or less.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: You even a lazy person will make whatever God designated him to make.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the benefit of that is that you're able to, instead of saying, um, but you're also expected to work, right?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: But this the the uh the balance between trusting in God and working hard, there has to be a balance, and it the way you find that balance is do a normal amount of work, right, for the industry or whatever you're in, and do it completely, honestly, and ethically.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's the expectation.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: God will give you what it gives you, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you work ethically, uh normal amount of work.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't do more because you need life balance, you don't do less because it's wrong to be lazy, right?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's wrong to cheat your employer and stuff, but you disconnect that from how much money you're gonna make.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: You work because God will command you to, and you want to honor and serve Him, right?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: You get the money that God decided you're gonna get for whatever reason.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: The benefit of that, and what we're talking to here, and men, is that we tend to work like a dog under the arrogant assumption that it's totally on us.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, if I don't work, I'm not gonna have money, my family starves, I can't pay my bills, the blah, blah, blah, all that.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's on me.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: So every moment that I'm not working, it's not true for every men, but especially go-getters, type A's, whatever.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why we're type type A's is because if we think if we don't work, it's all gonna fail, right?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Something's gonna go wrong, it's gonna go bad.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we take that into everything we do.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I am totally guilty.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can ask my wife, I'm not gonna give you her number, but because she'll tell you it's right that I tend to get so focused on work, even though I work from home, that she gets ignored, you know, and because I because I think I gotta do this, I gotta pay bills, whatever.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: But coming under this understanding, it's like I'm actually violating and decreasing my own blessings by working too much, because then it shows I have lack of trust, and I'm violating you know, God's expectation that I perform and be as a husband and father, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a religious understanding people don't have to have, but the just like with men, we've been so enculturated all our lives that the most important thing is work, and it's our responsibility, it's on us.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's no wonder men are, you know, and then they you know, they they expect that from all their employees, and you know, they see we've also been enculturated that women are weak and they cause problems with all this other stuff, but all that stuff is a lie.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's extremely hard to break through um people's cultures, whoever they are, men, women, or whatever, because we we're often, you know, we're working off of commandments we were given, like social commandments, not re you know, not biblical commands, but social commandments we were given by our parents.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that we were taught, and that we get a system like the military that only and reinforces this notion of um working till you're nearly dead, because that's what the mission is, that's what's required, and all this other stuff.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: The idea of like these quote unquote soft things is just people get so angry at it because it's just so against our program.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I'm so glad you mentioned that because um that was that's actually why I want to do the retreats for men is because I I've actually been working with a group recently about on a co ed retreat.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of the things I'm but there's more men on the group that's planning it than women.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm finding is like I'm getting I don't know what what course they're trying to go with it from a standpoint of the men are so programmed to how can we make our businesses better, how can we achieve more, how can we get to the next level of our career?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and meanwhile, I'm standing over here going, um, why don't we just take all the armor off, throw the sword down, stop competing, and just be still.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine what that would feel like if we were just still for a weekend.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't overachieve.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the word is trust.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Trust that you can take three days off from trying to be the overachiever provider, hyper masculine provider, right?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's another piece of it, is is is being more masculine, um, meaning tough, you know, and not having not having that heart and soul.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let all that melt for just three days.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine what that will do for your for your business, for your creativity, for your innovation, for your health, for your everything, for your family, for your wife.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like imagine what that would do.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And but I think trust is a big piece of that, trusting enough that you can take those three days to just allow it all to just melt for a day.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think coming out of that, you would be so launched.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of us would be, you know, it would be incredible.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that because you're sort of validating the direction I was going with that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it the it that's a tough road to hoe, though, because um, you know, as I as I scroll through like, you know, the the reels or whatever, I don't spend a ton of time on social media, but I do uh I mean when I'm looking to relax, I'll do some doom scrolling, right?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But but um these dudes irritate me so much.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: These guys, I was a navy SEAL and go to my retreat and I'll show you how to be a real man.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: And this I'm like, I'm totally a real man, and I don't have to.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: I wear a beard because Maggie says I look like Santa Claus, so she wants me to wear my daughter.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I wear a beard and I hate to shape, but it's not because I think I'm more of a man because I wear a beard, you know, and and these dudes are like these mountain retreats, and you'll come out like this.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: We men don't have a problem with that stuff.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: See, you're missing the point.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like most men are totally trying to be that, and and we've even like heroized every male profession uh because men want you like that, want that hero thing, and so but that but these guys are like you know, if you're not um teeming the wilderness and shooting guns and all this stuff, all that stuff I love, don't get me wrong, right?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I do, but I don't think it's like has that doesn't make me more or less of a man.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: What makes you a man is honesty, integrity, compassion, love, treating people, you know, all that stuff.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not not that you know, killing things and breaking things, climbing mountains or whatever.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: But but like we're so enamored with that, and so many men are afraid, like inside a lot of men, there is some softness, some there is some things they want to let out, but they're afraid to do it.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to be like around other men, thought less.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and they're also, excuse me, about the trust piece, they're also afraid.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I let my hair down, will I recover what what's gonna happen?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm not thinking about my business all the time, you know, what's gonna happen to it and stuff.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, so like I I don't care if you're uh religious or not, it's not all on you.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I think it's far better, like from my perspective, it's all on God, but even if you don't think that, even if you're it's not all on you, like it's completely impossible for any person to make their life happen the way they want to, without some intervention, you can call luck, you can whatever.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can call it the universe or whatever you want to, but that's impossible, and so you're killing yourself thinking it's all on you and it's not, yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the a retreat like that would be a way, I think, to to help men like if you could really speak to men um about that thing, I think it could transform their life because when I came to this recent real I'd been taught this before, but it didn't really sink into me until yesterday, actually.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like this idea of you know, God has already determined how much money I'm gonna make, and nothing I do or don't do is gonna prevent that.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's determined at first.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: You think, well, that's kind of like a letdown, because I know it's not gonna be as much as I want, right?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: But whatever it is, it's the exact perfect amount that is good for you.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: More or less would be not good for you for some way, because it's also based on the trust that God only does good, right?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: So so it's like um, but just the the like freedom as I started to think about that, I go, Oh my goodness.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the biggest problems I have, and you can is that even when I was not working, I was working.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had to be thinking, like, what am I gonna do tomorrow?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: What's on my schedule?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get our advertising to work better?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: How blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: So even with I was with Patty, I wasn't, right?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And she knew that and stuff.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: So so it's like helping men, I'd say men in particular, because that's what we're talking about, be able to divorce themselves from the idea it's all on you, and to be a real man and be responsible, you're supposed to take on that entire burden.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's what makes you a real man and stuff.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, you're killing people.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's that's a real issue with men, and that's why they have part of why they have such a hard time being compassionate leaders and and being, you know, able to give people accommodations and and to say, don't come into work, you're not feeling good, stay home.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're thinking, oh, we're not gonna make enough money, how are we gonna have whatever it is, like we're not gonna get all these metrics done that we have to do if I'm letting people stay home or whatever.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I really I think the heart of that is this totally insane, arrogant, and really evil idea that it's all on me, you know, right.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and and and I think too, like bringing it back to you know what women can add to that conversation is is a little bit more that balance, is you know, I think a lot of women in the workplace, they are the person that will start to shift that culture a little bit, um, to say it's okay to go home early, you know, like like you said, it's okay to, you know, miss this meeting because your kid has a dental appointment, or like giving that permission and modeling what it is to be a little more balanced is um now.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong, women have a lot, they have their own challenges in the sense of like how much more work they do in the work in the home.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right, unpaid labor for sure.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that's another piece of the puzzle.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: But point being is is like they, you know, both can it's it's coming, it's like at a little bit of a breaking point right now, where I think it it's coming back into a little bit more balance.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I shouldn't say that we're starting the journey towards more balance, is probably the best way to say it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think, you know, and I just want to say one other thing to your point about the money and like how it's sort of a little bit predetermined, and like you get you'll get what exactly what you're supposed to and what you need.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my mom and I always joke about this because it'll be um she'll she'll get like little um validations, I guess, because they're she's pretty much retired, her and my dad, and they'll they'll schedule a trip, you know, nothing extravagant.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: They have their RV, you know, going on a trip or something.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then out of nowhere, a check will just show up in the mail.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, this is God's way of saying she's like, and it's the exact amount I need, you know, to have like a nice trip.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she says it just always comes, and and it's not like in the form of a paycheck, always, it's in the form of like something else.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it I just wanted to say to your point, like I 100% believe that.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I probably articulate it slightly different, but it's it's exactly what I feel is like I will always, and I notice it in my own life.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes I'll just let these random things pop out of nowhere.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you know, like that's validation.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: One, that I'm on the right track, and two, that you appreciate my work.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it, you know.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I that's my focus right now religiously is on trust and just like what does it mean to truly trust, you know, God and and so on, and it's just so powerful and it's so you know, I I study this and I go, nobody gets this, man, except like my rabbinical friends and stuff, but like so much of our society is just so against these principles, and it shows up in our social services, right?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're so you know, the underlying concept is especially in the current administration, but in systems overall, is like when I'm trying to get help for women veterans, especially financial help, there's so many organizations that they want to know, like they want to know about your job and if you're unemployed, what you're gonna do to get a job, and like da-da-da-da-da.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like this idea of if you're poor and need help, it's probably because you're lazy or you made bad choices or whatever.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, there's so limited help in so many ways, and so you have like women veterans who are 100% disabled, they have two or three kids, they've got at least one of them.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like this morning, I was just talking to uh a woman work do some cases for her, but she's totally disabled.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: She has three kids.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um she has a husband, but he's he's struggling to find work and so on.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: So she gets this amount of money per month.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's no possible way for it to meet all the things.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at now, fortunately, there are some great organizations that that help, but many of them, it's like this is a person where she would have trouble getting financial support because she can't work, and they want to know, well, what are you gonna, you know, we only want to help temporarily, so when are you gonna get employed again?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, husband has a criminal record, so he's having a hard time finding work, and it's like, so now you know, we just have these systems that are built on assumptions about people that put them in loops that they can't escape, right?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because she can't work, he wants to work, desperately wants to work.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody is nobody doesn't want to work, like, even if you're getting welfare, it's not enough.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care how much.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's a total myth that Ronald Reagan created way back in the 80s the the welfare queen and all that stuff.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't exist, those people don't actually exist.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's not enough money from the government to to like take care of people.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we have these enculturated ideas that work is so important, being responsible with money is so important, all those things, right?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Not being in debt, whatever.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, people find themselves in situations, yes, due to their choices, but at some point people need second chances, people need help, it needs to we need to stop, you know.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if we had more ideas, more mentalities about you know um not being so like uh ideas in the workplace about being more compassionate and caring people for parent, that would translate over into our social services where we would we would yes have accountability.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's saying don't have accountability, even my most liberal friends don't think don't believe in no accountability, but but also giving people the help they need, um that that's you know, compassionate instead of saying you're lazy because you're not working, you shouldn't have three kids because you're poor, you should like all these things instead of just saying, and and like you have you you have a criminal record, so screw you, you know what I mean?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: We would say, Hey, yeah, you did your time, that was bad, but now let's help you so you don't do more crime because you have to do crime to eat or whatever.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I know we're out of time, but this has been uh a great conversation, and I probably did too much talking, but I I do appreciate all the work you do, and how can people um and and I'd love to have an offline conversation somehow about I can support your men's retreat because I think that's that's really interesting.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um, what's the easiest way?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll put like in the show notes, we'll put links and stuff to your website and so on.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: But for people just listening, maybe in their car or whatever, if they want to talk to you, learn more about how do they get in touch with you?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um definitely my website, uh pattytutelo.com, I think is what it is, or tuteloconsultants.com.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: I should know that.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: We were in the middle of changing it.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, should know that.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I also have a substack, which um I'm finding a lot of great feedback from veterans on my sub stack just because I'm sometimes articulating things that um are true to them, but they didn't really know how to articulate.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and and I mentioned that because uh I've received that feedback, which is actually kind of shocking to me because I feel like I'm just writing and whatever is in my mind, and I'm really finding it powerful that it's landing with the people it's supposed to land with.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also just email me.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's patty p-a-t-ti at pattytelo.com, and that's k-a-t-t-i t-utal.com.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then also on LinkedIn, of course, that's probably the easiest is find me on LinkedIn.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love connecting not only to people, but I love connecting people to other people, which I'm gonna do with you as well after the show.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm during I wrote down a few people that I'm like, oh my gosh, I can connect you.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um, nothing brings me more joy than making connections and then seeing those those relationships flourish.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I'm very grateful.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh a um common friend of ours connected us.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this has been a great conversation, and I I appreciate uh all your service in the Coast Guard and how you're taking those lessons and helping people now.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh you know I hope to to continue to have some conversations with you about different things, how we can support you and so on.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um it's been a real pleasure.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh was there any any final things you want to say before we we close up today?
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, just genuinely thank you.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the work that you're doing to to on this topic of moral injury and for for women.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's so important.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm just I'm so grateful for you and and also the books you sent for that I can give to other veteran women.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, good.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very thankful.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, good.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, folks.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's it for this show.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, be on the lookout for for a the full episode.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it'll it'll be on your your podcast, uh all your podcast uh platforms and on our website and so on.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: So have a great day.