Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / From Ten Failed IVF Cycles To An Open Donor Family a beautiful discussion with Fiona O,Neil

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From Ten Failed IVF Cycles To An Open Donor Family a beautiful discussion with Fiona O,Neil · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Home of Fidelity.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Expert insight about fertility.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I walk.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Helen Sage.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: We are two months who forced past and are passionate about supporting you on your journey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about it all.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Fertility treatment, electric support, relationship, mindset, and the emotional high.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive in.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Good morning, depending on where you are in this gorgeous world that we live in.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: And welcome to the Home of Fertility podcast with me Liz Walton, your host.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: And today I am honored, as with all of my guests, I but I also feel honored so much today with speaking with a wonderful woman who, like myself, has also had a long fertility journey, a different fertility journey, but it's created a passion of wanting to make change.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: And her name is Fiona O'Neill.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Fiona, how are you today?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm great, Liz.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for having me on.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: I am really looking forward to what we're going to cover today.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, look, the pleasure is mine, and I am also looking forward to it as well.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: And Fiona O'Neill, she has created the Fertility Framework.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: She's got a podcast.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll make sure it's all in our show notes because you need to go check out her podcast.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: And also her work with Fertility Framework and working within the um, you know, within offices, within the working environment.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: So let's find out who Fiona is first, and then we can get into the wonderful conversation that we are going to have.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: So who is this amazing lady Fiona?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: So Fiona O'Neill is the founder of the of The Fertility Framework.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: She's a fertility coach, speaker, lived experience advocate, and workplace educator.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: With a long career in fashion and industry, um, Fiona's life took a very different direction following an extraordinary complex path to motherhood, when I understand.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Her journey included 10 IBFs, uh, egg retrievals without creating an embryo to transfer.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Very heartbreaking.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my love.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Pregnancy loss, an ectopic pregnancy, donor eggs, donor sperm, and ultimately embryo donation, which resulted in the birth of her son.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Whoa, that is wondering, my lovely.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Her experience of infertility, genetic grief, and donor conception, and now parenting within an open donor family relationship has shaped her commitment to improving the emotional support available to people navigating this complex path to parenthood.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: She's particularly passionate about early age appropriate disclosure to donor conception and also the importance of supporting openly healthy relationships between donor-conceived people and their donor families where possible.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, I love you already.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Through the fertility framework, Fiona supports individuals and couples navigating the fertility treatment, pregnancy loss, donor conception, and complex building family-building journeys.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: She also works with organizations to improve understanding and support around reproductive challenges within the workplace, helping businesses support employees while protecting engagement, retention, and business continuity.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Fiona's work now brings together all of this lived experiences, advocacy, education, and practical support with a focus on making complex fertility journeys feeling less isolating and helping both individuals and organizations navigate them with greater confidence and with greater understanding.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, Fiona, you are one amazing woman.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for that intro, Lisa.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: That was great.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: Very comprehensive.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: You are so welcome.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's it's it's it's your life and it's your lived experience and your journey.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, I just want to let you know I really honor that because there's a lot in there of highs and lows and you know deep emotions and lots of learning.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm just honoring um your whole journey, my lovely.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get into understanding this journey and everything that you know encompasses in that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: So take us back, my lovely.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna give you the floor as we chat through this.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because I know there's lots of other women, you know, on fertility journeys, and some of them are incorporating this, and some of them don't know that they may need to yet.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this is such a beautiful conversation.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: So take us back to the beginning when you first realized, you know, this this parent thing, parenting working.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I remember thinking, oh, it'll just happen, you know, at last I can become a parent.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: But yes, no, hey, but no.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, no.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, everybody says that you spend your whole feels like your whole young life trying not to get pregnant, and then you want to get pregnant and you can't get pregnant, and it comes as a the impossible shock, um, which was my case.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: So look, I had been um we're married for a little while and trying to conceive having absolutely no luck.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: And after some time, um, my husband and I decided that it was probably time to try IVS.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: So we did two um cycles.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: The first cycle there was zero fertilization, which I didn't know at the time was highly unusual and should have garnered some further investigation.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like at the time, the feedback that I kept getting was, oh, you're so young.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: You're really young.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's you like we'll figure it out, it's gonna be fine.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so did another round, and I think we had we used Dixie, we had some form of fertilization, but um nothing eventuated.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: And that was when I pushed to have a laproscopy and found out that I had stage four endo.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: So I had already, yeah, I had already been doing IVF, and that was not even known.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so that was a bit of a miss, I would say, because I had had a history of um endometriosis symptoms that had never been diagnosed.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I didn't find out until I was trying to become a mum.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we continue on, we do 10 rounds in total with my eggs.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_04: As you said earlier, never to get a single embryo.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean the egg retrievals the count at where I went, they write down the amount of eggs they get on your hand.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I had that too.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, which is its own form of torture, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_04: You wake up all groggy and you look down and you're hoping to see something.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: And in my case, I never saw what I think I saw what I had hoped to see once.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_04: But we had done, we're on the 10th retrieval, and I looked down and it said one.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I was just like at that point, enough is enough.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: This is ridiculous.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I just decided that I couldn't do any more retrievals myself.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_04: And in hindsight, looking back, I mean, I I would have pulled the pin a lot earlier on that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: If you're getting to 10 retrievals without a single embryo to transfer, um, there's something else going on that needs investigating.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_04: Would just be a little piece of advice from my own experience that I would put into that part of the story.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so then we moved on.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: My sister, I'm very fortunate.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: My sister, uh who's uh only a couple of years older than me, volunteered to be an egg donor.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: So we did a cycle with her.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: She has three kids.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so I suppose we would call her a proven egg donor.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: And we um got some fertilization, but they they all arrested before there was we could do a transfer.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: So at this point in time, uh, you know, we're kind of talking about the sperm.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: The sperm looks fine, the sperm looks fine under the microscope.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_04: The sperm was clearly not fine, but we could never really find out what the issue was.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so then in my mind, I'm like, okay, well, we'll try another way.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: We tried sperm donation with my eggs.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: And we got one embryo, and we had to go to Queensland because that was through the European Sperm Bank, who um were not importing to where I lived at that point in time.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: And the embryo arrested on the way to the airport.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: So we didn't get to that transfer.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: So back to the drawing board, we're like, okay, we're gonna try um a really young embryo, uh, sorry, egg donor in South Africa.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: So we went to Cape Fertility in South Africa, and this was anonymous donation at that point in time, and um that did result in embryos.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: So that was still my husband's sperm.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: The younger donor resulted in embryos, but uh ended in miscarriage.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: And then we went back to South Africa and had the same outcome with a different egg donor.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: So I go back to my clinic here in Melbourne, and that's when I find out about embryo donation.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: So Liz, I didn't even really know that it existed.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_06: Wow, yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Which I I think is a massive gap.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I was I was speaking to a doctor yesterday, and I said, I just wish that I, and not everyone's gonna share this opinion, I would have just loved a menu.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: I would have loved to walk into the IEF clinic and for them to say, okay, this is what we do here.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: We do this, this, this, this, this, all the way through to embryo donation.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: I felt that I uncovered things as I went along in my journey.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh in hindsight, like I was a little annoyed that I didn't know certain things up until the point that they were shared with me.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, on in not defense of, but the other side of that equation is, and this lovely doctor said to me, it's just really hard.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: We can't overwhelm patients as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have a conversation, let's say, about donation before someone's ready to have that conversation, that can go really poorly.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so it's a very fine line in clinical care about what information they share with the patient.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I would suggest to women and men that are going through this to be forthcoming with what you want to know.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: If you have a similar personality to me, go in there and say, I'd like to know everything that you do at this clinic.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: What are the options?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: I I I always like to have a plan B.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell me what that might be?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I kind of digress on there.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_04: That is a a very nuanced situation within the clinical setting.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we find out about embryo donation at that point in time.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: It was a system where you it was kind of like dating.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_04: We wanted like it's not an application as such, it's but you're sharing information and you want to like make yourself sound as good as you possibly can.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: So, Rob, my husband and I filling out all the information, um, and you kind of feel like, oh, please pick me, please pick me, because you know it's gonna go to the clinic, it's gonna go to the head of the donor program, and they're gonna look for uh a person, a family, someone to match you with.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think the thing, so you go into a kind of a pool, and if there's someone that matches with you that you're kind of like-minded, that can be the connection.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: So that was up to the clinic at that point in time.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and what I would say about that, we had gone anonymous donation in South Africa, yeah, and I had come back after that hadn't worked, and I'd had a very enlightening conversation with a friend of mine who came from a closed adoption.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I by no means adoption is different to donation, 100%, but it had really negatively impacted his sense of identity, yeah, and because he didn't have the answers uh about his own history that he wanted.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: And that really something changed for me when I had that conversation where I started thinking about what this could look like for a child instead of thinking about myself parenting.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: So I I kinda and I have by all means become a parent any way that works for your yourself, for your family.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: I have no um judgment about anonymous donation, but I had come to a point, and I I could very well be a mother via anonymous donation if it worked out for me.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_04: But after that conversation, I was kind of like, I if there was a way for me to be able to answer questions to a child in the future, in the future, yeah, that that was what I wanted.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: But having said that, Liz, when you really want a baby and you have such an arduous road, I found it very difficult to project myself into the future.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_04: I I couldn't, I I just couldn't even see myself.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: There were points when I couldn't even see myself becoming a parent.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: So to ask myself to be like, oh, well, if you do become a parent, and then the child wants to know, it might be better if you know you have an open situation.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's a big ask for people.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I just happened to have that conversation at a time where it really resonated for me.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so on that application, we were very clear about the fact that we wanted to be matched with someone who was open to contact and open to contact whenever, not legally, by the time the child turns 18.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: Like if if sooner, um the sooner the better.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: And we got matched, we were very lucky.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: We got matched, I would say I think it was eight months.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: Six to eight months, which you know, when you're waiting for a baby, it feels like forever.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, in the big scheme of things, that's that's fast.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I was actually at the hairdresser, I was getting my foils done, and I got a phone call from that private number.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: And then they say this is Melbourne IVF, and you've got to give your identifying, you know, your full name, date of birth, all that stuff.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_04: But I wasn't in treatment, so I knew that there was news, and they told me that we had there had been a match made, and we had 11 embryos.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I just like jumped out of my chair chair there.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: I think I ran out onto the street with foils in my hair.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I was just like, yeah, yeah, I couldn't, I've never had an embryo.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_04: And to be gifted 11 embryos, and I was like, oh my goodness.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: So you of course then have to check all of the paperwork, and you both kind of have to agree on the match.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_04: And we were due to go overseas for a wedding.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: We went away for a wedding and came back and did the first transfer, and was so lucky that I got pregnant with um my son on the first transfer after so many years.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so but so it was amazing.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, we can go down into this.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: It ended up being a very long road for us because that was the first transfer.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: But my actual I got a phone call when he was a year and a half that there were more embryos that had obviously been given to somebody else but had been relinquished.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: And that can happen for whatever reason.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: It can be if you know a couple splits up or they get pregnant naturally or an adoption comes through or something.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: So in the end, we had 21 embryos.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I should also add that our embryos were older.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: So my son was frozen for 14 years before he was transferred to me.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there you go.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: So we had a pretty extensive experience following on from our own experience with the eggs and the donor eggs and donor sperm, because we had 21 embryos to transfer.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: So we and during this time we moved states, then we moved countries, then we had COVID.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: So we were kind of doing whatever we could to do the transfers when we could do the transfers.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I had epitopic pregnancies during that time.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, altogether I was pregnant five times and we've one son.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: So um it was yeah, it was really huge.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_04: But by the end, um I felt uh a sense of relief, I suppose, when all the transfers were done and it was behind me.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And we actually had beautiful friends um offer to create embryos for us.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: The husband and wife done building their family, and we went down that road to a certain amount, but then I just couldn't do it anymore, Liz.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, this has been so many years, yeah, and I just don't have the wherewithal anymore.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like I just really needed to close the book.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: So um that that's kind of the physical, I suppose, side of how I got pregnant eventually.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: But the there's it raises all kinds of questions, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because you like being pregnant with um a donor child is I I have not known, um, I have not had a full pregnancy with a biological child.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't really know the difference, but I know um in my experience, there's lots of questions that you have in your mind.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, is my baby gonna look completely different to me?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Will people like stop me in the street and be asking me?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll have like, not that that would have been uh it's not a problem at all to have a child that looks different to you, a different race child.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's just that it's more obvious.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I hadn't told everybody.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, my close circle knew what was going on, but I mean, I'm not going around telling everybody all the ins and outs of my fertility journey because that's just exhausting.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um that I used to dream all the time that my son was like because he's half Maltese, and you can see I'm very pasty white, and my husband is even pastier than me.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: I used to dream that we'd have this like gorgeous little um dark-skinned baby with dark brown eyes, and um he was actually born and he was whiter than both of us, which was hilarious, um, which we didn't we didn't expect at all.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: But you just I don't know, and then I was really nervous.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: Am I gonna bond with him the same way that I would just like my genetic child?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I probably put um I was so excited to be pregnant, like and I was so excited like when I first saw those embryos, but I think I put some hard expectations on myself because of how I got there.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like for example, I was really worried about having um medication during the birth.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: I had read something about um oxytocin being the bonding hormone and being blocked if you you know have too much medication at birth.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: I am not a doctor.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know why I got like stuck on this piece of information, but I really wanted to have a natural birth because I was worried about bonding, which in like looking back, I'm Just like that, just goes to show how much anxiety I was kind of carrying into motherhood after the experience that I had, which I think is a really important thing to kind of touch on.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I was the same with breastfeeding, like I was pedantic, I would time each side, and then I would be like, Oh, is is he getting enough?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_04: Then I would call the lactation consultant out to my house, and she'd be like, Fiona, everything's fine.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I just had like it was still with me.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember I had this one nurse at the IVF clinic when I was, you know, you get pregnant and you leave, and she's like, Fiona, you just have to be aware that maybe you might have like some post-traumatic stress from the experience that you had that you might need to work through um, you know, while you're pregnant or during um early motherhood.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, what is she talking about?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: I'm pregnant now, I'm gonna have my baby.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I'm good, but I really like I was quite nervous during my whole pregnancy, and I didn't really relax until he was born.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then look, I don't think I really relaxed for a while because I was so I don't know, maybe it was something about I couldn't get pregnant the normal way, so now I have to be like this perfect mum.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_04: I just think there's a lot of um I really, really want to just uh spread the word, please take all of this pressure off of yourself.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what whatever, like if you cannot get pregnant using your own eggs or your your partner's sperm or take the pressure off.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's nobody's fault.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's just the situation that you're in.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um if you are not like glowing in pregnancy because you're feeling a little nervous, it's okay.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Just stop beating yourself up.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_04: And you don't have to have any kind of specific birth.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_04: The the thing about birth is just have a safe one and feeding your baby, just feed your baby.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't, it doesn't matter how, just feed your baby.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_04: All of this stuff, I just think women in particular are just so so hard on themselves.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and uh something that I was talking about with somebody else with stress.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: They asked me, uh what my thoughts on stress affecting infertility.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's I just I actually said I really hate that question because I think that it puts the onus on usually the woman who is like, oh, I'm just so highly strung, it's my fault, I can't get pregnant.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: I had a fertility doctor tell me I needed to to quit my job because I was just stressed.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_06: Really?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: But I had stage four endometriosis, like it that stress wasn't why I couldn't get pregnant.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: And also, if you're on an IVF or fertility journey or a surrogacy journey, stress is part and parcel of it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_06: It is, yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: So, and it's not gonna affect your outcome, but reducing your stress by you know supporting your nervous system is more so about the kind of experience you you're gonna have.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_04: So if you're doing certain things that you know bring you a little bit of joy, then you might have an easier moment, you know, on a really hard day.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: Say you're a person who is going for a transfer, you're really, really nervous about it, you love walking your dog.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: Take take your dog for a walk the morning of that transfer.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: If you can, just do something for yourself.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and call on those little things that bring you a little bit of joy to make a difficult situation easier at times.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_04: It was a lot of talking from me.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it was beautiful.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: I I've written down a few points to talk on.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I thank you first of all for sharing that journey.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so much in it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I always say, um, excuse me, our fertility path is the gift because those little conversations, those little things that people say and whatnot that, you know, like you say, your conversation with that person about, you know, I wish I'd known, you know, and and the fact that he was adopted, it changes how we think and feel.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: And like in that way, that's medicine, isn't it?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's that medicine of going, okay, what does that mean for me?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: What do I need to do?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all it's all, you know, you know, that the yellow brick road taking us home to what's going to be right for us is a reason why we hear everything, I I believe anyway.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the first thing um that you said it was about, you know, you didn't realize about embryo um donation and you wish there was a menu.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, wouldn't that be great?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I think this is yeah, and I think this is why you know people like ourselves are like, okay, how can we, knowing our own journeys, different but similar, how can we make it easier for everybody else?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So let's see what we can do to support.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the biggest thing is we don't know what we don't know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: So don't you know how are we going to know about embryo donation if no one tells us?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: And when you're sitting in that seat at the doctor's office, this is usually the your your first time there.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: And the learning curve, Liz, is so huge.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: Huge.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're trying to wrap your head around all this medical stuff, you're trying to wrap your head around timing.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: And any all the possi you we don't know what the possibilities are.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: So so why we do what we do, and I think I can safely speak on your behalf here, is that we don't want people to be at that starting point where we there's no reason that they have to be sitting there alone without prior knowledge.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: So many of us have been through it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: So this is this is where lived experience can really be your best friend through such an intense learning journey, such an emotional journey.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, to have others that have gone before you can make an enormous difference.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: And this is even, you know, the idea of the podcast is you know, oh, actually, there was a lady, she also had had donor, and you know, had all these things.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think you should listen to that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then that this in itself is education and sharing and learning.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And and again, we don't know what we don't know.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: So if if anyone's listening on this, is just again be gentle.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the right time that that gets introduced is because it's the right time for you, even though we might go, oh, I wished I knew it before we didn't.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so yeah, so be gentle again, I think, with ourselves.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: When you were saying um about, you know, we didn't know about anonymous donations and what was the right thing to do.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say, what a gift that that person had that chat with you, yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: To open up, I suppose it, you know, it's not necessarily Pandora's box, but open up a new space to understand.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because we don't think when you're on the fertility journey, a so much is just about getting pregnant, keeping pregnant, having having the baby.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so we don't think forward.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: So it was interesting to have a conversation that created the um the space to go, oh wow.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so then this changed a trajectory, uh trajectory for you.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: So what what a gift in that too, hey.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think Oprah would call it a aha moment.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like that's that's a hundred percent what it was.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: It was it did change the way I chose to go football in.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I think with that, the the beauty I hear and see uh it is that you've got this open conversation with your son now.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is that correct?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, 100%, yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: So share a bit about that.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_04: So we, as I kind of touched on, we moved around a fair bit.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: So we were moving for work, and um, my son was seven.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_04: So all of this happened, my clinic is in Victoria.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_04: I live back in Victoria again now, but um my son was around seven, and I said to my husband, we have to find his donor family now because if he meets them when he's an awkward preteen or teen, it might be awkward for him, you know.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: I just wanted it to be as seamless as possible for him, and yeah, we had spoken to him from birth about being uh embryo donation baby, and you know, of course you do it in child appropriate age appropriate ways, yeah.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but it we never had to sit him down and have like this full-on conversation because it was just always normal from the moment I was pregnant with him, and you know, the whole time he knew, yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, or he was spoken to in vitro, and then when he was getting his nephews changed, we talked to him about it, we'd read him little books.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: So he always uh knew, and then as he got older, he would ask me more interesting questions, and then I'd be like, okay, so now is the time where I could talk to him about this aspect of it.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: But he was seven, and I really wanted um to meet the donor family.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to meet them, I really wanted him to meet them, and I called Vata, was managing donor connections at that point.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Vata, sadly, no longer.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm aware, yeah.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I called Vata and I was like, I have a baby, he was born on this date, he was born here, he was through the embryo donation program at Melbourne IVS.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: I want to find his donor family.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_04: And she said to me, Oh my goodness, this is so strange, but they've been looking for you.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I said, I said, what?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: And she said, Yeah, they called within it like four weeks ago.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_04: No way.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: So the female from the um donor couple uh called and wanted to see if uh my son had been registered and where he was and if we could connect.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: So it was both for both of us at the same time when we were thinking about it.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_04: So then um we had some counseling through Barter, um families separately.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: So my husband and I, and then them, and I'm not sure if their older kids um had to have any, but then after that is done, they give you each other's email addresses, and you kind of start writing emails, yeah, and then you work your way up to calling each other at the date, right?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's like dating.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um so we got each other's email addresses.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, and there was another bit of the conversation, and she said, I I knew that my son had three siblings, yeah, and um which I was so happy about, but she said, Oh, there's something else I've got to tell you.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: I said, What?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: And she said, He he has a brother who's the same age as he is, and I went, What?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because when you get the paperwork, you get told about you know existing children that they have.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I knew about the other three, but they had had their own very long IVF journey, had all of their kids, donated their embryos, and then gotten accidentally pregnant.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: No, so wow my yes, so their youngest is only three months older than my son.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: My goodness.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: So when I and I hadn't been able to give him a sibling, I was still trying to give him a sibling, I was beside myself with excitement.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think again, it was like the hairdresser.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, yeah, yeah, and then I called my husband at work, and I'm like, Rob, Rob, guess what?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: You've got a brother the same age.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we were thrilled, but then we started exchanging emails, and that was just absolutely fascinating because I was receiving photos of the kids when they were babies and like finding out about their personality types, and they all looked similar to my son.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like I was like, oh my gosh, that baby photo, that one.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and they all like with their personalities.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um as their mum told me about each of the kids, I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like my son.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that sounds like my son.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: So it was amazing, and um so we we got to know each other over email and then we wanted to meet.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, by the time we got to meeting, we were living in Auckland.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: So we flew over specifically to meet them, and we met at Science Works.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because we were like, Science Works is a good place for kids, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: But the kids, the kids were like seven up to what were they, like 21 or something at that point in time.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_04: So we walked in and I was quite nervous because it's so funny.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: You kind of are like, oh my gosh, I hope that they're happy that that they got matched with us and that they think we're doing a good job.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: What is what are your worries that's what uh you know go on behind us, you know.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, what if they think we're we're parenting him terribly?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I don't know.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: It's so funny.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: I you just uh like you just want to do the best by the family that you can, of course.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so uh my husband and I were nervous.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_04: Our son was excited, like he was seven, so he was kind of like, oh, this is cool.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: And then we walked in and I saw the four kids, and they all looked like my son in their own way.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I like it was almost like an out-of-body experience to see these siblings that look like your child, yeah, that you know are full siblings, but you've never met before.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like, and then I saw um uh the parents and uh the woman and I just hugged each other, like we got really tear, and we just hugged, couldn't really talk too much.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it was like, and then she's like, okay, so that then introduced us to all of the kids, and we walked through the science center, and the little boys, the little brothers, were just like off, like they were best friends that had always known each other, and that was amazing.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: And we were supposed to just go to science works for a few hours, but then we went over to a place called Graysland and had all of this food.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_04: We ended up, I think we spent like eight hours together.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so it and then we went back to where we were staying, and we were putting our son to sleep, and we all fell asleep in the bed for the full night, like in our clothes.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think we were just so emo, like it was such an emotional day.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it was I I I couldn't have been happier with how it went.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_04: And we are very lucky.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, this is not this is not everybody's story.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I suppose the thing is as well, both parties have to be invested in how important the relationship is to each uh person.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: For us, we are both families are very invested.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: So over time, we now live in the same state, which is amazing.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we we're going away with their entire family, like all of the siblings and all of the cousins and everything in November.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we have been camping together every school holidays.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: The youngest brother and my son have at least a week together because we live quite far away.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_04: We're in the same state, but yeah, so during the school term can be hard, but they spend the holidays together.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it has been a relationship that you we really have both leaned into.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh that's we we yeah, have put a lot of effort into making it what it is.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: And look, I just think this is so wonderful to hear and understand because I think this is this is some big questions that people have, you know, within the donor space.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think to hear such something so positive and loving and healthy is beautiful.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and basically all kudos and all respect to you for you know wanting that.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I'm you know, I'm just in awe of that.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well done.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think you know, it just it it really enriches my son's life to have people that he can look at and go, oh, I look like them, or you know, oh, I we're similar that way.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just more people to love him.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_04: But I suppose as a parent, you have to be pretty um oh like I'm very secure in my I'm his mum.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I think that's the good security and I suppose um knowledge to go on.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he is my baby and I am his mum.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: And everything else is a bonus.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, because I think that if you were feeling a little insecure about that, I know a lot of people are like, what if they want to spend more time with uh the donor than me?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: Or you know, what if they just feel more uh like them?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_04: Or all of those thoughts are completely valid.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: You like no thought is invalid, but I would say the um reality is a lot different than a lot of those fears that you kind of project on yourself and not let your brain just get caught up and run away with the what ifs.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we're just gonna hold for a second.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: Hold.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've got my client, my daughter, shouting at me.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna go and let my barking dog outside.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, I'm just doing my podcast, love.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm okay.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you let the dog out.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm okay.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just finishing off the podcast, okay, love?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you just lie there, I'll be back as soon as it's finished, alright?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right, you alright?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_07: I'm okay.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_07: Are you are you okay?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: All right, you can come and lie on this bed here if you want, but I'm I'll be finishing soon, okay?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you stay there, I won't be long, all right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_07: Are you okay?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_07: Do you want to um do you want to regroup another day?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, no, no.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, let's carry on and finish the podcast.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: I've just got the the three other places I I I highlighted was when we talk about having hex expectations on ourselves.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: I thought we could go into a little bit of that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then about when we don't release the anxiety, and then that last part you brought up was, and I call it fertility trauma.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's the emotional, it's uh and then we can just finish kind of on that.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: So those were the just the last three sections.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um are you good to go?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then we can kind of finish.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm so fine.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just mindful that your little girl is not feeling.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh no, she's okay, she's on the sofa.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: I've told her I said we'll be fine.
• 43:24
  unknown: Right.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: So if I go now, it just suddenly goes a big thing, and then I know how to redo it.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um so another area that I thought would be great to chat on that you express is about the expectations we have on ourselves.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: And they can be hard.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: We it's like we want, we feel we should know it all, but how can we know it all?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then we get annoyed or we get upset with ourselves, and we get so hard with ourselves.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is uh no matter where we are on our fertility journey, is again, I think it comes back.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: To you know, we don't know what we don't know.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: Let's please be gentle, let's take some breath, and you know, allow ourselves to know this is our first time and it's okay.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think that you can just judge.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so sorry, Liz.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_04: I need to put this blind down.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: I think you hear this party.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_07: No, I just you need to go.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because he's making some of my work a little bit difficult.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's all right, and we can't hear it from here, so don't worry.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_04: You can't hear it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry, we're probably you'll have to cut that out again.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to ask me the question again?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, yeah, no, that's okay.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um now, so um, another area that I feel um would be great to chat about that you discussed was the expectations we have on ourselves and how we can be so hard on ourselves when it's like we think we should know it, but how can we know it, whatever the emotion is?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then we get really frustrated with ourselves.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what I suppose what I want to share is we can't know what we don't know.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really about that breath and just being gentle with ourselves.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think there's so many opportunities to beat yourself up.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: So there is come from, as we spoke, about if you know, having to let go of those expectations about how you were going to get pregnant.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I'm not gonna um be able to have a romantic night and then get pregnant and do like a surprise announcement.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_04: That's not gonna be my journey.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: It may be that you do get pregnant and then you aren't you like I wouldn't let my friends throw me a baby shower because I was just so um I couldn't celebrate anything until my baby was born because I was so nervous.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: So you can kind of lose the joy of your pregnancy.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_04: You can be super controlling about your birth.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, as I kind of touched on that, I was um, that is kind of born out of these expectations that you're placing on yourself.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: But the thing to remember that we both agree on is that you have to be kind to yourself, that this is hard enough.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: Trying to get pregnant when it's a long road is hard enough.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: So just be kind to yourself, but also the important part of that we can say that be kind to yourself, but what does be kind look like?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: I I think that being kind to yourself during uh extensive fertility uh experience is about boundaries.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: So you really I know that I turned to myself inside out to still go to baby showers, to still have people come and stay in my house while I was in the middle of treatment, to go to kids' birthday parties, to, you know, uh we need to be able to step back and go in order to give myself grace, I need to look after myself a little bit more and I need to say no to some things.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_04: And a question that I get asked a lot is how can I be, I'm not going through IVF, but I've got a really good girlfriend that's going through IVF and she's been going through IVF for a long time.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: How can I support her?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_04: One of the best ways that we can support people that are going through this is by giving them grace.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_04: Please do not get mad at your friend who does not come to your baby shower.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, your friend wants to come, but your friend cannot come because the recovery from supporting you is too detrimental to herself.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_04: You know how many baby showers I went to, Liz, and that I stayed in bed for two days recovering.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because emotionally I just did not, I no longer had the capacity.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's grief, isn't it?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: So much grief.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's and it's constantly being bombarded with grief.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_04: Another really important call out is step away from social media.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_04: If if you're having a really hard time, you're finding that you're like in the pointy end of a fertility journey, social media is not your friend, you will be bombarded with all kinds of content about parenting, about cute baby clothes, about um, you know, and I am on social media trying to help people, but I just think that you can get inundated and you can start seeing a life that you're trying so hard to create for yourself, and no matter how hard you're trying, it's not happening.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: So we need to, you know, put some boundaries in place to protect ourselves, yeah, and be okay with that.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, I like all of those.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I I I think another thing about social media is it's can be such a large lie, isn't it?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, making everything so perfect and in the truth, you know, step away, it's never as perfect as it sounds, and just come back to your life, live your life and enjoy and do the things, you know.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think as as you said before, that bring you joy, bring you love, make you smile and laugh, because this creates so much amazing serotonin and oxytocin.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, these things are real to have for you.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: And they also support your nervous system.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and it brings us back home to ourselves.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: So call on all of those tools that you can, those little happy tools.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I always say to people, I don't expect this to be a walk in the park.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it is hard.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're not pretending that it's not, yeah, but you might be able to buy yourself an hour of peace where you've got a smile on your face and you're doing something that you're enjoying and you're not thinking about everything.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: And back to your point as well on social media comparison, we just don't need that.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like we need to let go of the timelines.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's let's rid up.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: I I I don't know about you.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: When I was trying to get pregnant, every Christmas, every birthday, every Mother's Day, every Father's Day, yeah, all just were terribly difficult.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that we need to just say, I'm on my own path here.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: This this is my journey, this is nobody else's experience.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's fine.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: If you've got your two kids already, and I started trying before what you did.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, all of that kind of stuff just hurts you more.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: If we can find a way to like reframe things, refocus ourselves, and as you said, focus on yourself and your experience as opposed to other people.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I really want people to know.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, no, I I I I concur and agree.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: It it is, you know, I always say it's a bumpy ride, and how do we traverse that bumpy ride in the best way possible and being able to keep our own sanity, you know?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's yeah, that's right.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, another area which I thought is so good to chat on is um, you know, not realizing, and this is one where we can look back and actually realize actually, I was quite anxious or I was so stressed, but at the time I didn't think I was.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you know, that whole being pregnant, you know, I can't be happy with my pregnancy until I've got that baby and all of this understanding of, you know, am I allowed to be happy for myself?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Am I allowed to feel good?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we we hold that in and we're not sure.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I know for me, um, so because I was told Willow wouldn't be viable, so it wasn't until I think 24, 25 weeks where they said, you know, everything's fine, go away and enjoy it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then I was like, okay, right, how do I do that now?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then for me, looking at, okay, so what what are the things I need to know?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: And going out and and getting clear on what that was, you know, and looking at some breath work, looking at doing a bit of hypnotherapy and allowing my mind and body to go, okay, let's ease into this, let's enjoy this, let's allow my body to be slower.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and I made sure I watched lots, I wouldn't hear any negative or bad birth stories.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, if they had one, I'm like, I look, I want I honor you, but I don't want that to come into my space.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I only watched Amazing, Gorgeous Birthing because that's what I wanted to create.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and you know, I I had I did have a a um, it was a month before I had a baby shower, but it was a month before.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that's when that was, and that was quite lovely because I was really letting myself know it's okay, it's okay.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: We've all got our different journeys, but um, yeah, and and we don't realize the anxiety or the stress or maybe how worried we were.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: So just about allowing the self to find what is it for me to help in mind and body is gonna help me calm and move forward.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like on during my journey when I was trying to get pregnant, I did we're always in counseling, right?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: Externally outside of the clinic.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_04: But what I would say about that, and part of the reason I do what I do now is that none of my um therapists had lived experience.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_04: I felt like I was having to explain what was going on to them.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, what's the difference between a collection and a transfer?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not, I don't want to go to a therapist where I have to educate you on what's going on.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_04: So um I so that was kind of an area that I felt could use a lot more lived experience input, which is why I do help people one-on-one from a lived experience lens.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_04: But also I was didn't like continue with the counseling.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think as I said with that story when the nurse was like, you might have some PTSD, I was like, huh, what are you talking about?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um but uh what you're saying, find the tools where it whether it be breath work or meditation or um some lived experience support or some um psychology support from a clinician that understands what you've been through.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh don't just think that it may be over, like that anxiety may finish for you because you you're gonna have a baby now.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um pay attention to yourself and give yourself the space to to look after yourself so that you're not because I I it is human nature when you've received so much bad news and so many shocks, your brain goes, you're like bracing, what's next?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_04: What's next?
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what's gonna happen next?
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_04: That that doesn't mean that like that's a very per perfectly normal human response.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_04: There's nothing wrong with you if that's how you're responding to life after you know, having such a tumultuous time.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_04: However, if you have the capacity to do a little bit of inner work on that, that can make your experience a lot better.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I will say, you know, I am four years out of when my journey finished, and um, I can still have moments, Liz.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_04: It has nothing to do with it, it can just be a life moment where like, what's gonna go wrong?
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that this is a pattern from what I went through.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I think the takeaway that I would like to share is please look after your mental health and set boundaries.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, do not do things to appease appease other people during this process.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_04: This is this is a time in your life where it really does matter how you go through it and how you take care of yourself mentally.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I uh thanks for sharing all of that.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that is beautiful, very wise words.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the last part uh for talking into and opening into that is is the fertility trauma and how we deal with it, you know, after birth and having the baby, because there's so many other things that come into play, which all come into the words you've said about looking after ourselves and where do we go, you know, um, and and it is exactly why we do the work we do with um, you know, being fertility coaches is supporting that person that and having that lived experience, um, knowledge, know-how, and understanding, but also being able to support the healing of all the things that can come up afterwards, which can be guilt if I feel you know tired and knackered and my baby's crying and I'm feeling what's going on, but I feel so guilty because I really wanted that baby.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that's another huge thing as well.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, really, you know, and then also later, later on, you know, the issues are in our tissues.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: And um, as you say, things can rebound and happen to us later on and trigger us.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's really important to know, you know, wherever one cycle ends, so we've got the baby, another cycle will happen.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: How do we parent?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: How does that happen?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so it is the supporting mental health, physically, emotionally, spiritually, you know, whether it be a psychotherapist, um, hypnotherapist, but or um, is it breath work, is it meditation, is it going to see, you know, an acupuncturist still continue?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's about helping your body mentally, emotionally, and physically.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, and the more that we can do that we support our little one, because when our cup is full, we can give out so much more.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, and the journey of being on a fertility or infertility journey, depending on how you like to word it, is huge.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: But the gift is is we really learn so much about ourselves and our capabilities, and we've grown in ways we would never have expected in our wildest dreams.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: And realizing just how amazing we are, and in whatever different way we have our little bubby, um that um continuing to supporting to support ourselves is also quite important.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_04: I couldn't agree with all of that more.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's so important.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I I guess the end game is is not actually the baby, the end game is is how you process the experience that you've had and continue on with life, but um having had uh quite uh adverse experience with getting back to parenting.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: That is so beautiful.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, Fiona, thank you so much for your time today.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I usually I always end with, and I know we've had a couple of oh, I'd like people to leave with this, but if there was something you would like um the listeners to leave with from your lived experience and your journey, what would that be from you?
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_04: Don't be a hero, get the support that you need while you're traveling the road.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um put those pillars in place, whatever that might look like.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_04: And that can be a good friend that you confide in that has no judgment and just lets you vent or cry or do whatever.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_04: That can be a therapist.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but don't if you're finding that your journey is longer and you're feeling it, please just put supports in place for yourself.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_04: And the other part of that is boundaries.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so please let's get rid of any guilt around not showing up to events, um not exiting the group chat.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I had I had three best friends who were pregnant.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um we're on a group chat of four.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_04: Three of them were pregnant with their second baby while I had been trying to have a second baby for years and years and years.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I just had to pull back from that group chat, and that's okay.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, as we've said so many times in the conversation, be kind to yourself and get the support that you need when you need it and put your boundaries in place.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: I love you.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's so beautiful.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: Now, lovely Fiona, where can people find you?
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: If they're like, I need to speak to this lovely.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, they can find me.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: Look, I I do a few different things.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_04: I work with organizations on fertility aware training, so that can be leadership training and whatnot.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_04: And you I also work one-on-one with people that are having usually quite tumultuous journeys and want some lived experience support.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I also work with clinics to integrate uh patient voice into clinical care.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_04: So if anybody wants to get in touch with me for any of these reasons, I have a website which is thefertilityframework.com.au.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_04: You can also email me Fiona at the fertilityframework.com.au.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_04: Or you can find me on Instagram and just shoot me a DM and my handle is at fertilityframework.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_04: So that's how you can find me.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: So please do go and find the lovely Fiona.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: Follow her.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: She's got a podcast, she does amazing work, and uh, she's one amazing human being as well.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: Fiona, thank you so much for your time today and our lovely long chat and really delving into all the different aspects of your journey and for being so open and sharing it.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you're so welcome.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_04: It was absolutely my pleasure.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I just am of the opinion the more we talk about this, yeah, the more we reduce isolation and we decrease the stigma.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_04: So let's just keep having all of these conversations as much as we can.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: You're speaking my language, beautiful one.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: And with that, I shall say fare thee well with all of you amazing listeners out there.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: And remember, you know, don't be the hero, seek support, look at those boundaries.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: And if you need more support or want to talk more, we're here for you.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: Come and speak to Fiona, or I'm here.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, um we're just here because we we're we're we've walked this path.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: We don't want you to feel alone.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we'd love a blessing.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast resonated, please share it.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Leave a review or subscribe.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: This helps us support more people that are on TisPad.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, the missing kids might be waiting in a story.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: Your body twisted.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: What's up?
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: Take care, and we'll see you next time.