Latest / Leading in Change / The First Pancake: Why Getting Started Is the Most Underrated Leadership Skill
Transcript
- Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Melissa Thompson. And welcome to our very first episode. Today's episode is appropriately named the first pancake, and we will get into that in just a little bit. But first, I want to start with an icebreaker. Yes. Okay, so you know that we're both nerdy and we love to learn. So tell me something that you've been learning lately that is interesting. Both it could be professional or personal. Speaker 2: And I'm Adrien Owen Jones. I love an icebreaker. Yeah. ⁓ just this morning I learned that ⁓ raccoons are rapidly being domesticated in urban areas. Okay. And they could tell this because their snouts are shortening. ⁓ and it's making them more ⁓ docile and hopefully, fingers crossed, ⁓ I could have a raccoon pet in the next 10 years because they're becoming domesticated enough. Speaker 1: I feel like of all of the people I know in the world that would have a domesticated raccoon, it would be you. Speaker 2: Absolutely, I need that. I would love that. How about you? What have you been learning? Well Speaker 1: So far this spring, I have been focusing all of my energy or extra energy ⁓ outside of work on my garden. So I have some raised beds and trying to do some cut flower raised bed and then some vegetables and other things. So hopefully in a couple months I'll have some things to share with you. Yeah. Some cute cut. Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't wait to try some salad tuppins or pickled vegetables. I don't know. Speaker 1: Other things. We'll see. And if if all else fails, we'll just go to the farmer's market. Yes. Okay, so back to the episode. Today we're talking about the first pancake. So for we have been talking about the first pancake for a while and we've used that as a metaphor for some of the work that we do here at Success Labs, but also for this episode in and of itself. Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah. What what the heck is the first pancake? Speaker 1: First pancake. Okay, so let's pretend you it's a Saturday morning and you've got extra time to cook some pancakes. You've got your batter, you've got your griddle, you've got your butter, you're ready to go. Yeah. First pancake usually is terrible. Yeah, it's because it's overcooked, undercooked, the batter may be too runny. Speaker 2: It sucks, it's the worst. Yeah. My griddle's never hot enough. I'm always like, just give me the pancake and then I'm like I did not wait for enough bubbles. Speaker 1: All the things. Yeah. So it's it's just one that you need to scrap. Or if it's cooked enough, throw to the dogs. Yeah. ⁓ or your pet raccoon. Yeah. And ⁓ so, but also we can use this metaphor as kind of just for anything that you're trying to start, whether that's a professional thing, a pro personal thing, it's just like sometimes you just gotta get started. Speaker 2: Yeah. Brene Brown, ⁓ I think it's the first person I heard use that phrase and she also like references the shitty first draft. Yeah. You know, like the first version of a thing just not being good, but you can learn so much from it. Speaker 1: Okay, but that concept of like just getting started is something that blocks a lot of humans and leaders in particular. So with ⁓ what it what does that look like to you? What do you see? What does it look like when somebody is stalling or they're just not getting started because they're just so blocked by something? Yeah. Speaker 2: I mean, I s I usually see this manifest a few ways. One, I think it's when people feel like they've gotta have like everything planned out perfectly and it's like things never go according to plan, like bestly plans, ⁓ you know, are like plans that can actually be enacted. Sure. I think Love to your thoughts on this in a second, but like I think perfectionism comes into play. I think like death by committee comes into play, like wanting consensus and everybody to be on board. And it's like you're always gonna be upsetting somebody, you know? And so that fear of conflict I think sometimes gets in the way. Yeah. What do you think? Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all of those and probably more. ⁓ I I think that there you talked about the perfectionism. I kind of lovingly call myself a recovering perfectionist. It still sneaks up every once in a while. This really got ⁓ pulled out of my brain ⁓ when I was in grad school, where I was told over and over and over, done is better than perfect. Yeah. Because I wanted everything to be right. I wanted to be proud of it. I wanted to be able to get through all of the work. Yeah. And then be able to look back and say, I did it the way I wanted to do it. Yeah. And that perfectionism to me is not like the outcome is perfect, but like my setup and follow through is perfect. Like I needed all of the data, I needed all of the information. I needed a perfect plan. And then I needed to control that plan all the way to the end. Speaker 2: So control, desire for control is also part of it. Like I think that's part of why people don't just get started is like they feel like it's gonna get beyond their control or they might have to hand something off to others, you know. Speaker 1: And there's trust that is is deeply ⁓ or not it's not too deep, it's just under the surface of if you don't trust somebody, you're not gonna delegate or not gonna give up part of the project. So what where where do you think this is coming from? Like you at Success Labs, we work with a lot of leaders. We do coaching class coaching appointments, we do a lot of leadership classes. Where do you think this is coming from? ⁓ like not just Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. Speaker 1: Describing what it is, because that's what we just did, but like what is the diagnosis that's underneath this? Like, why are leaders stalling? Yeah. Speaker 2: I mean, I mentioned the first one of feeling like you need perfect plans. I think that people wait till they have they want more information. Right. And sometimes I think that does mask perfectionism, but a lot of times I think that masks fear and risk aversion. You know, I think that a a fear of taking a risk is a big part of it. And it's like asking yourself like what's really the worst that can happen. Right. You know, what's really the minimum amount of information I need to confidently move forward. So, You know, there's the ⁓ seventy percent rule. If you have seventy percent of the information, then you should be able to move forward. I've been watching Indian matchmaking and Auntie Auntie Sima always says that like if if they've got seventy percent of the criteria, move ahead, you know, and and I think that that's like you can apply that to the workplace. Speaker 1: But there's this this there's this idea or thought whether it's true or not. It's and it might just be a fallacy or a narrative that I've made up in my own mind. That seventy pr I mean, seven let's be very clear. As a adjunct professional ready for university, seventy percent is a C. If I'm starting a project, I don't wanna make a C. I wanna make an A. But Speaker 2: Yeah. Why are you thinking about it like grading? Like it's not apples to apples, you know? Speaker 1: That's that's what I'm getting at. If ⁓ seventy percent still feels like you're missing a lot of the picture, but you're saying seventy percent is still a huge majority. It's enough to Speaker 2: Yeah, to me it's like, you know, there's always gonna be a certain amount of unknown. And so what do you need to know to move forward? One of the things that I love about the first pancake analogy is that it has the bias towards action and using that action as a learning experience. And so when you're in a dynamic environment, in a fast-changing environment, which I think everyone would agree that we we are in. It's actually a greater risk to stay stagnant. Speaker 1: That's what's just about what's the invisible cost of inaction? Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's that. I think it's opportunity cost. I think that it's ⁓ loss of momentum. I think that stalling things out can reduce morale and and team engagement. Exactly. I mean, what what do you think are some of the other costs? Speaker 1: I think ⁓ if if you're if you were leading a team or leading a project and you are not acting, it can also lead to losing trust on a team because they're looking to you as the leader to get things started or get things moving or or motivate people or just yeah, but the bias towards action is a phrase that you say. No offense, but kind of bare like flippantly, like it's something it's just a part of your brain. It's a part of your vocabulary. Right. Yeah. But bias towards action as a concept is something that you've been saying a lot more or like you've been saying it lately and I've picked up on it and I'm starting to think about it more. I don't know that that's like a concept that enough people understand. Okay. What's like the let's drill all the way back? What is a bias towards action mean or look like to you? Speaker 2: I think I've got a low risk tolerant. It's feeling comfortable making the next move. It's make a move, then make it right. It's take the next step. It's ⁓ the ball is always in your court. Right. So I think about it in the context of I used to lead sales teams. ⁓ I used to lead fundraising teams, I've led sales teams. One of the things we would do in a pipeline meeting is say, okay, where are we on this client? And they'd say, Well, you know, a fundraiser or a salesperson might say, Well, I've sent them the proposal, I'm just waiting for them to hear back. Well, ⁓ when did you send it? ⁓ last Friday. This is a Wednesday, let's say. Well, you do not let a whole week go by. That you're losing momentum, you're losing opportunity. I guarantee you somebody else is following up, right? And so how do you get the ball back in your court? What is one next move you can make to follow up in an intentional way? to add value to the conversation and the relationship. How do you keep the ball moving ahead? ⁓ I'm not great at sports analogies. But yet, you know, it's to me it's about momentum. Yeah. And you feel momentum in an organization and you feel stalling in an organization when things aren't moving forward, when work's not moving forward, when tasks aren't being completed, then it it creates ripple effects throughout the team, not just in terms of productivity loss or opportunity loss. You know, somebody else could go get that client, but also in terms of what you just talked about. you know, morale, teams feeling like they're lack of lacking direction. Why are we still waiting? What am I supposed to be doing? Mm-hmm. Speaker 1: Right. Okay, something you said at the very beginning of that answer that I want to go back to, because I actually I'm I I kind of disagree with you, but I think that we're actually on the same page. You said getting comfortable, getting started. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: The getting comfortable part is the part that I kind of agree with in a way. Because your example about the sales teams, I've been doing that a lot with my own clients, like just sending emails and then waiting for a week or two to hear back from them and not hearing anything. And because I don't want to be a nuisance. I don't want to be a bother. That's like what I have in the back of my head. But I'm never going to feel comfortable. bird dogging someone or just sending the email or like reaching back out or sending a text when the email didn't didn't get responded to. Right. But the comfort but that is a discomfort to me. Yeah. Because and so it's more about getting comfortable in the discomfort of acting. That's the way that I would interpret that. Speaker 2: I think that's fine. Yeah. You know, I I mean what I hear in that is a fear of failure. And I think or yeah, fear of rejection, fear of failure. Speaker 1: Felt fear of rejection. It's not even rejection, but it's like the silence is a form of rejection. Yeah. If they don't respond. Speaker 2: One, how many emails do you forget to respond to? Probably none, but ⁓ for me, plenty. Speaker 1: My my inbox is zeroed out every day. Speaker 2: You know, like I like those are stories you tell yourself, right? And I think that's part of this whole ⁓ fear of bias towards action is you tell yourself a bunch of stories that are not necessarily founded in reality of in known information. What do you truly know? What you know is you sent an email and they haven't responded. Yeah. So how do you gain information that will help you get clarity in how to move forward? Reaching back out helps you gain information. Did they just not risk did they just not read it yet? Is this not the right? inf did I not offer the right thing? Was it too expensive? Like the more like information you can gather, the more you can move ahead. And so taking that bias towards action is how you get more information. Speaker 1: Right. Okay. This makes a lot of sense. I love this. So no matter what the problem is, if you are stalling, if the project is stalling, if the team is stalling, that's the problem. The solution is basically developing and continuing to build muscle around the bias towards action. ⁓ Speaker 2: So yeah. Yeah. And I think comfort and the discomfort is a really interesting point. And I see it come up a lot with team dynamics of not wanting to hurt someone's feelings because of what moving ahead might mean for their role in the project, not knowing what the unknowns might be. You know, I've implemented ⁓ technology projects in the past and I've seen them really stall out when it might mean changing someone's workflow. Because they think, ⁓ am I gonna be eliminated? Is my role gonna be eliminated if we change the way we do this? Is my role gonna dramatically change and I might hate my work? And so getting people comfortable with saying like, we're all on a team, we don't know what the outcome will be, but what I can guarantee is that the work will be better on the other side. Yeah, you know, is usually where I guide people. So Speaker 1: I wanna ask you this and we'll come back to un ⁓ Brene Brown again because she's kind of our favorite. But w when you think about why this matters, why developing this skill set? why why does this matter for leaders? And I'm thinking about myself in particular when we because we were talking about the perfectionism and there might be some people watching or listening that would also call themselves perfectionists. ⁓ What you Why is this why how could this help somebody? Why does this matter so much to think about it? Well, I think it's rather freeing to just get started and to be rewarded or recognized for just getting started. Yeah. Instead of stalling. ⁓ I think that so there's that the the vain part of it. The practical part of it is that you're never going to get anywhere if you don't. Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think? Speaker 1: just get started. ⁓ it's an and I think the thing that's taken me a long time to realize as a perfectionist is that if you get started and get it wrong, that's at least more data. Not a setback. It's like just help from Speaker 2: That's right. That's exactly You learn you iterate. Like one of my ⁓ phrases that I I have on my desk is iteration is perfection. And what that means to me is like getting really comfortable with that discomfort of failure. Like it's actually great because you learn something that you can go forward and do the next time. Yeah. ⁓ you know, the other piece of it that I think about is When the world is changing so rapidly and changing so quickly, your opportunity window is is narrower. It they're they're a fine finite number and they're narrower. And so n having that bi like trusting your gut and having that bias towards action is gonna help you realize opportunities as they come up. Whereas with how rapidly things are changing, an opportunity window might be in front of you, but close by the time that you decide to take action. And then, you know, you're competitor has gotten on top of it or the technology has changed such that it's not relevant anymore for you to develop this tool or this product or whatever. So ⁓ I think that it's particularly important in in a really dynamic world to embrace Speaker 1: Yeah. I wanna we're talking about this kind of in theory, but I'd love to hear about it in practice. So for you, can do you have I'm kind of I'm asking you this, but I'm also willing to give an example myself. But can you think of like a small practical daily thing task that you have not acted on like that you were was stalling you and then you had you switch towards a bias towards action or ⁓ and then maybe like a bigger one. And I can think of a couple already if if you'd like some you go first. Yeah. So one is this is a really simple, like it's it's pretty small and practical. But lately I have been noticing that I was using Claude more than Chat GPT to help me write things or get organized or or just like have all my notes. ⁓ And I kept Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 1: Saying, like, this is gonna be so hard to take everything out of Chat GPT and put it into Cloud because I'd built yeah for the past two years I've been using Chat GPT and everything is there. Yeah. And at one point I was like, I don't I'm not gonna be able to pull all this down. It's not gonna go away. Let me just let it stay there and I'm gonna switch my membership to Cloud. Like I'm gonna have the paid version of Cloud and I just started using it. Yeah. And I was worried about it not having all the context that Chat GPT did. It is like in my brain. I just did it. Yeah. And I'll build it as I go. Speaker 2: Can I tell you a secret just specific to that? Yeah, Clot has like a whole tool. Speaker 1: Well yeah, I know that you can download it all down and Yeah. Yes. But it was it was more than just the download and upload. It was changing habits, changing patterns, yeah, changing the you know the or or like not having a bias towards action because I didn't think it would be the perfect thing anymore that I would have to read. Or ⁓ maybe a bigger problem is waiting to get started on a project. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Like I needed all of the data. I needed all of the stuff. And it's like, no, you just need to get started. You just need to send that first email. You just need to set the first meeting. That's right. And ⁓ so those that's a little bit bigger, less tactical, but I just I've been trying to do that. To me, it's so closely akin to growth mindsets. So okay, something that also heard Brene Brown talk about, and I use a lot in coaching with people is when they're up against a decision, I ask them. Speaker 2: What do you Speaker 1: Where is the scary part coming from? Do you feel scared big or scared small? Scared small meaning like you feel like you're backed into a corner and having to make a decision. Scared big is I don't know where this is gonna go, but the possibilities are endless. Growth mindset versus fixed mindset to me is fixed mindset is I can't do that. I don't know how to do that. Growth mind is I don't know how to do that yet. Yeah. Teach me. And that openness and a curiosity that I think it requires vulnerability and self-awareness and self-assuredness. that comes with time and experience and age and all that. ⁓ and so when I think about bias towards action or bias towards inaction or the pancake, ⁓ the first pancake, to me it's like, I don't know everything, but I'm just gonna get started. I'm gonna take the first step and we'll see where we go. It's it's just to me it's an overall actually instead of it being scary of not having all the information, it's actually freeing in in a way because it's built on the premise of just being curious and asking the right questions and being open to whatever happens after you get started. Hopeful. Speaker 2: Yeah. It absolutely is helpful. I think that's right. I that's exactly right. I'd love to have a future conversation around growth mindset. Yeah. And I think that is critical to creating a culture with a bias towards action. It's learner. It it is a learner mindset. It is a growth mindset. It is we're excited to fail because we're gonna learn something and iterate and improve for the next time. Speaker 1: Yeah. And a huge part of that is as a leader of a team, modeling that, but coaching and reward for that. Like say that was a really great question that you asked. Thank you so much for asking it. Like little little tiny things to model that curiosity that comes with action or growth. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I think that's an interesting whole other sidebar of how do you incentivize for a bias towards action. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. What does it look like for you? Do you have any examples that came to mind? Speaker 2: Any examples of where I've had to just Speaker 1: Like you might have been stalling, and then you were like, Let me just act, let me just go. You're a go, you're a go person all the time, anyway. Speaker 2: I am. ⁓ my struggle is f stick to itiveness. Okay. You know, and so I think that's like a whole other conversation. ⁓ but when things stall th that are I I will say I think conflict comes into play and it that would probably surprise people, but where things stall for me is when I know it's going to be conflict to move it forward and I don't have clear decision rights. So like a a practical thing I think people can do to make sure there's a bias towards action is having clear decision making rights. Like who ultimately makes the call, what are the calls that that are going to be made. that ambiguity is where I oftentimes find myself stalling out. ⁓ I think that this ⁓ starting this episode is a perfect example of like what are the topics, who gets to decide the topics, you know, who's gonna be on the episodes, how long are they gonna be all of that, you know, when you don't feel like you have 100% decision making rights. it becomes like death by committee. And that feels like I just don't want to talk to anybody. You know, like that's where I I think like people who have like a lone wolf mentality are really easy at having a bias towards action in their own work. And it's harder to do with team dynamics. And so that's like growth has been growth for me is learning how do I bring others along? How do I make sure that we have clear decision rights? The decisions don't even have to lie with me, but knowing where they lie is really helpful. And then Accountability. Like I think accountability is really critical of checking in and saying, how's it going? Are is this just running off the rails unattended? You know, what have we learned so far? How are we recalibrating? How are we iterating? ⁓ so for me, like standing meetings on the calendar really help. You know, set agendas that that you know how you're checking in on it. ⁓ and setting some kind of parameters, like I love a 48-hour rule. Like we're gonna sit on this for a finite amount of time, 48 hours. And then we're gonna make a decision. If you haven't made a decision, I do this with my husband all the time, you know, it's like if you haven't made a decision by this, then I'm just going to do this. Yeah, you know, and I think that applies in the workplace too. Speaker 1: Yeah. So you're talking about clear tactical things that you could do. And you mentioned the 48 hour rule. Are there others that you could we could implement as a team? Speaker 2: I I think the decision making rights is a good one. I think clear decision making rights. ⁓ I think that flipping the question, you know, we say, ⁓ there's all this risk associated with just getting started. It's like, well, what's the risk of not getting started? What's the opportunity cost on the table? ⁓ what could we gain in the learning that we experience, even if it does fail? Speaker 1: Right. And full disclosure, this is the second time we've recorded this episode because our first time was a true first pancake. Yeah. Which is where this whole concept came from. Speaker 2: not high res and the cameras or the ⁓ microphones weren't great. I don't know. The technol technology, you know, was a was a foobark. Speaker 1: We had a plan and it didn't go according to plan and we learned from it and we're here for Speaker 2: Guess what? Who cares? We learned. We're gonna try it again. And guess what? I think our future episodes will continue to be better because we'll find formats that feel comfortable, ⁓ and topics that feel relevant, but you know, we've already learned and we're gonna continue to Speaker 1: ⁓ you mentioned accountability in particular. And I know that this could be an entire episode on its own talking about how do you incentivize ⁓ the the bias towards action. What are some like super specific things that people could do? And I'm re and I remember our conversation, we had a staff meeting recently where you said instead of talking about who we're gonna contact for. business development, let's actually pull our computers in here and we're gonna have a concentrated 30 minutes to everybody send three emails to people to set up meetings. So that that to me is a very practical example. Yeah. Sit down and do the work together instead of talking about the work and expecting people to do it on their own. Speaker 2: Who's gonna do what by when? There's a book by that title and I I love it because it says don't hold people accountable, hold don't hold accountability to people, hold accountability to tasks. Okay to the work. So who's going to do what by when? And so make that clear who Melissa is going to do what? Contact these three specific clients by Monday. Yeah, Friday, whatever. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: make it clear and specific and then the that's part of the accountability is make it very clear who's doing what by when and then follow back up. So saying, okay, did you make those contacts? Right. If not, why? What what got in the way? You know, how can we remove the barriers? How can we make the momentum? Speaker 1: And sometimes those barriers are I just didn't have time or I had other pressing work to do for other clients. But I think that the underlying thing is that something that we haven't maybe explicitly named is that that underlying thing is emotions like fear or fear of rejection or not having the you might have the skill to do it, but not the will. And where does that will, where's that will missing? Speaker 2: No, I think Speaker 1: That's fair. So I think it what you're also saying is the account there's a piece of the accountability that is the follow-up. But what that would require, again, a whole other episode, is the feeling of being safe if you were to say, like, I didn't meet that goal. I didn't, I didn't hit that. And you've got to create a team environment where people feel safe to say, Yes, I did that and it'd be celebrated, or no, I didn't. And okay, let me help you. Yeah. Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, I think it's hard to have a bunch of first pincakes, you know, shidey first drafts if you don't have psychological safety on the team. And so I would say like psychological safety, team trust is really what I mean by that, is like the foundation of all of it, you know, is is making sure that you're not creating an environment where there is fear of retribution for failure. Speaker 1: Yeah. Hmm. Now my brain's spinning on all kinds of things. But this is really helpful to hear very specific things. You also instituted in our in our own staff meeting because we try to model this for ourselves. If we're asking our clients to do it, we need to be able to do it too. You also instituted we have annual goals and we are using the RACI matrix to Speaker 2: Who's doing what by when? Yeah. That's what it's all about. You know. Speaker 1: But specifically, can you go through the letters of the Ray C matrix? So because there's there's there's an audience, there's several audiences that might need to be in informed or involved. ⁓ Speaker 2: I think we could do a whole episode on accountability. But one of the really helpful accountability tools from a project management perspective is a RAISI Matrix, which stands for responsible, accountable, consulted, and informed. And what that really does is delineates roles and responsibilities and expectations in terms of, like I mentioned earlier, decision-making role, decision-making rights, like where does ultimate accountability fall if this doesn't get done? Who makes the decisions on the project? Who determines what done looks like, you know, who is actually doing the work. So who's executing on it? And those might not be the same person. You know, consulted is who needs to be brought in and not just updated, but truly add value to the project in an intentional way. ⁓ and then informed is like who needs to be kept in the loop. Yeah. And so, you know, if you start projects thinking about those things on the front end, that sets expectations for accountability, it clarifies decision making rights. And then those are the two things that are going to really set you up for success and make sure that you're maintaining momentum. Yeah. Speaker 1: Well, you know, I love a lot of structure and I I like rules and things, but they they're not actually rules, it's just like expectations and it's ⁓ it's clearly defining like who's doing what by when. So you can all be on the same page and moving towards yeah the goal line or whatever that is. Yeah. Speaker 2: So what did we talk about today? What what can people take away from this conversation? Speaker 1: Well, what I hope they take away is that sometimes the first pancake is not great and that's okay. You just have to get started. And what stalls leaders is we need to we need to uncover what that is, what what unpack that. Yeah. But the antidote to that is a bias towards action. Yeah. And bias towards action could look really technical and and tactical and small, or it could look really big as well. But there are lots of tools and things that can help you. lean towards that. And it's a practice that you have to it's just like yoga. You're never gonna be perfect. It's practice. And you gotta keep working towards that. What what other takeaways? Speaker 2: So I'm gonna s that was a very ⁓ very fast. No, what I was gonna say is this is where our Myers Briggs are gonna come into play. That felt like a a yeah, I'm gonna talk about it from my T my high T perspective. Okay. ⁓ I I think that one you talk I think you're exactly right. Like you just gotta get started. I I hope is people's takeaway. When we talk about diagnosing it, I wanted like double click in on that. So some of the things we talked through in terms of diagnosing it helped me remember. it was you're a f you one, you feel like you got have best slate plans. Two, it might be perfectionism. Three, it might be feeling like you're gonna upset the avocate with the team and getting team buy-in. Yeah, that too. So lack of role clarity. I think that's a great one. Anything else in terms of diagnosing what might have you stalled Speaker 1: even knowing that it's your task to start. ⁓ yeah, it ⁓ there's so many. It could be that ⁓ you don't know enough. There there's missing skill or missing will, there's missing guidelines, there's missing motivation to get started, whether that's internal or external. Yeah. All kinds of things. Okay. Yeah. Feedback, not not being knowing that your boss is gonna ask you about it one time, but there's no accountability and they never ask about it again. Right. Speaker 2: Those are great. So a lack of accountability can definitely be part of it. ⁓ okay, and so then some of the solutions that we talk through and how to implement is like just get started. ⁓ we talked about like the 48-hour rule. So if it's you know, put a timeline on when the decision's gonna be made, clarifying the accountability, so who's gonna do what by when, flip the question. So instead of saying like what are the risks ⁓ to doing this imperfectly. Speaker 1: Just do it. Yeah. Speaker 2: What are the risks to not getting started? What is the opportunity cost? Mm-hmm. What else? Anything else? Speaker 1: Hmm. And ⁓ I think one thing that we didn't talk about, but I think is a really good if I'm I'm a my my Myers Briggs is also a T, but I think that I have to lean into the the F, the feeler part of it. But ⁓ creating psychological safety for a team that's really able to experience the failure, setbacks or just stalled momentum. And then also reward incentivizing, rewarding and and and Speaker 2: That's exactly. Speaker 1: positively affirming action. ⁓ it's kind of like ⁓ I joke that adults are just grown up kids. We're just grown up toddlers and sometimes we need some positive reinforcement. And we need some cheerleading. Yeah. We need to feel good about what we're doing. Even when we don't get it right, we're still making progress. Totally. Speaker 2: I agree. Yeah. Okay. Well Speaker 1: Well, this is our first pancake. Yay, we did it. Yay for our first pancake. Speaker 2: to ⁓ talk about more next time, but if people want to learn more about Success Labs and what we do, how do they do that? Speaker 1: Yeah, I would go first to our website, successlabs.com. And then also we are on all social media platforms, particularly on LinkedIn and Instagram, where we share more insights and practical tools and tips and resources to help leaders, teams, and organizations reach their full potential. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Good job. Speaker 2: Success line. Awesome. Thank you.