Latest / Story Magic / 142 - Planning for the author life you want with Daphne James Huff

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142 - Planning for the author life you want with Daphne James Huff · Story Magic

• 2:27
  Daphne James Huff: Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Rachel: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Emily: I'm Emily.
• 2:33
  Rachel: And I'm Rachel.
• 2:35
  Emily: And today we are talking with our good friend Daphne James Hoffman about how to plan for the author life that you want.
• 2:43
  Emily: I'm super excited about this.
• 2:45
  Emily: Daphne is a sweet contemporary romance author, and she also works in hr, so we're going to get to pick her brain today.
• 2:53
  Emily: But before we dive into it, Daphne, can you tell us a little bit about yourself as a writer, as a person, so folks can get to know you, and then we'll.
• 3:01
  Emily: Then we'll dive into the juicy bits.
• 3:03
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, of course.
• 3:04
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 3:05
  Daphne James Huff: So, hi.
• 3:05
  Daphne James Huff: Thank you for having me.
• 3:08
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 3:08
  Daphne James Huff: So I. Sweet romance writer, like you said, I have over 15 novels published right now, started back in 2017, so this is something I've been doing for a while now, and I started a few years into my HR career, and they've really grown in parallel, which is really interesting, and I think it's probably the case for a lot of people, but we don't talk about it.
• 3:25
  Daphne James Huff: So that's why it's really, you know, wanted to come here and talk to you all about it, because it seems like it's just weird that I talk to so many writers and they never tell me what.
• 3:33
  Daphne James Huff: What they do.
• 3:34
  Daphne James Huff: But as an HR person, like, I.
• 3:36
  Daphne James Huff: My job is people's jobs.
• 3:37
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I love hearing what people do, and it's almost like people are embarrassed to talk about it or like, oh, it's not important.
• 3:42
  Daphne James Huff: Like, what I really do is writing.
• 3:43
  Daphne James Huff: It's like, well, no, I think both are really important.
• 3:46
  Daphne James Huff: So it's been kind of interesting for me to see over the years how kind of the writing has influenced the HR career and vice versa.
• 3:53
  Daphne James Huff: And at first it wasn't really intentional, but now I do take into consideration both as I'm planning my next steps for both.
• 3:59
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 4:00
  Daphne James Huff: Like, every year I'm like, don't plan a book launch during the month that this big project is happening.
• 4:05
  Rachel: Open enrollment.
• 4:07
  Daphne James Huff: Yes, of course.
• 4:09
  Daphne James Huff: It's always the month, right?
• 4:10
  Daphne James Huff: It's like, so somehow I'm still not great at that.
• 4:14
  Daphne James Huff: But I will always advise people to do that.
• 4:17
  Daphne James Huff: I never seem to be able to do it myself.
• 4:18
  Daphne James Huff: So just things like that.
• 4:19
  Daphne James Huff: But then also just the kinds of jobs I do.
• 4:22
  Daphne James Huff: So when I had a really bad burnout, actually in 2019, from, I published six books in a year, which, oh, my goodness, a lot of books.
• 4:31
  Daphne James Huff: And it was very much the case then.
• 4:33
  Daphne James Huff: Think still, unfortunately, a little bit the Case now where, yeah, you have to publish pretty often as an indie, right, to stay relevant and things like that.
• 4:40
  Daphne James Huff: And so that's what I was doing.
• 4:41
  Daphne James Huff: And it was at a time I was working at a nonprofit, so don't make a lot there.
• 4:45
  Daphne James Huff: So I was like, okay, I need.
• 4:46
  Daphne James Huff: We just bought a house.
• 4:47
  Daphne James Huff: So I just needed more income in general, but not a full time.
• 4:50
  Daphne James Huff: Like I wasn't trying to make 50k from my 20 books.
• 4:53
  Daphne James Huff: I was trying to make, you know, maybe like 5 or 10k extra, you know, it wasn't like anything didn't seem bananas.
• 4:58
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, well, six books should do it.
• 5:00
  Daphne James Huff: Well, what it did, yes, I burned out pretty bad.
• 5:02
  Daphne James Huff: But I was also, you know, I had my own podcast at the time, Writer mom life.
• 5:05
  Daphne James Huff: My son at the time, he was like 4 or 5.
• 5:07
  Daphne James Huff: So I was driving him to daycare every day.
• 5:09
  Daphne James Huff: It was like a 45 minute drive.
• 5:10
  Daphne James Huff: This is pre Covid.
• 5:11
  Daphne James Huff: So everything was fully in person.
• 5:14
  Daphne James Huff: What else was I doing?
• 5:14
  Daphne James Huff: I was getting my coach training.
• 5:16
  Daphne James Huff: Like I was doing everything, all the things.
• 5:20
  Daphne James Huff: And so no surprise, I burned out.
• 5:21
  Daphne James Huff: And you know what helped was I got a new job that paid 50% more.
• 5:26
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, oh, okay.
• 5:27
  Daphne James Huff: So like I don't have to publish six books a year anymore.
• 5:30
  Daphne James Huff: And I got to have this, you know, I was traveling a lot for work.
• 5:33
  Daphne James Huff: So I didn't publish for three years between 2020, which I feel like a lot of people also maybe took a little pause in 2020 for other reasons.
• 5:41
  Emily: Various reasons, yes.
• 5:43
  Daphne James Huff: Pause the podcast as well.
• 5:44
  Daphne James Huff: And yeah, three years, just didn't publish anything.
• 5:47
  Daphne James Huff: But I was able to take classes like from YouTube, which really helped, I think, restructure the way I think about my stories.
• 5:53
  Daphne James Huff: I was able to pay for a VA when I did come back to publishing things like that.
• 5:57
  Daphne James Huff: So, I mean, I wouldn't have the writing career I have now if I didn't also have this HR career.
• 6:01
  Daphne James Huff: And I feel like it's just something I don't hear a lot of people talk about.
• 6:04
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it seems like full time writing is the goal for a lot of people, which may maybe it should be for them, but I feel like it's a should.
• 6:11
  Daphne James Huff: I know you get.
• 6:12
  Daphne James Huff: You two don't like shoulds.
• 6:13
  Daphne James Huff: So I'm just really curious about where this should is coming from and is it really appropriate for people.
• 6:18
  Daphne James Huff: And I think for most people it's not realistic.
• 6:20
  Daphne James Huff: Just for lots of reasons and not in a bad way.
• 6:22
  Daphne James Huff: Just like take away that should, you know.
• 6:24
  Daphne James Huff: So I thought that's why you, you all probably have some thoughts on that too, since.
• 6:30
  Rachel: So many thoughts.
• 6:31
  Rachel: But this is amazing because I feel like there were a lot of things that you just said where you're doing so many things.
• 6:39
  Rachel: So you're an author, an HR professional, a mother, a coach, and doing kind of all of these things at once.
• 6:46
  Rachel: And it sounds like those are all things that you want to be doing.
• 6:50
  Rachel: Right?
• 6:50
  Rachel: Like you're not trying to sacrifice one thing or the other.
• 6:54
  Rachel: These are just things you enjoy and that you love.
• 6:56
  Rachel: And podcasting, I mean, that is a lot to manage.
• 7:01
  Daphne James Huff: Yes. Yeah, Well, I haven't done the podcast yet.
• 7:03
  Daphne James Huff: The last episode was like February 2020.
• 7:05
  Daphne James Huff: And I don't think for now, no plans to bring it back.
• 7:08
  Daphne James Huff: I also think at the time, you know, I really started it because I wasn't seeing those models of other writer moms.
• 7:13
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 7:14
  Daphne James Huff: Actually, it's my mug today.
• 7:15
  Daphne James Huff: It's from the, it's from the show.
• 7:17
  Daphne James Huff: It was giving indie author moms a voice was tagline of the show because I wasn't hearing it right.
• 7:22
  Daphne James Huff: I was hearing it from, you know, mostly men, usually a lot older, or if it was women, Joanna Penn, she's great, but also doesn't have kids.
• 7:27
  Daphne James Huff: So just a different kind of lifestyle.
• 7:29
  Daphne James Huff: And again, it was all people who were really aiming for that full time writing.
• 7:33
  Daphne James Huff: And since I wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't hearing from people like me.
• 7:37
  Daphne James Huff: I wasn't seeing people like me.
• 7:40
  Daphne James Huff: Not even just like the mom thing, but just even the, hey, I don't want this to be a full time writer.
• 7:44
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it doesn't have to be for me.
• 7:46
  Daphne James Huff: So, yeah, started that, did that for a couple years and I think, you know, I'm still, all the episodes are still up, so I'm really proud of that.
• 7:52
  Daphne James Huff: But it does seem like there is more.
• 7:54
  Daphne James Huff: There are more groups, there are more communities.
• 7:55
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 7:56
  Daphne James Huff: Like, your podcast is great, like anti Hustle.
• 7:58
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I think that message is a lot stronger now than it was in 2017 when I got started.
• 8:03
  Daphne James Huff: But it's, you know, it's still, it's still around, like full time writing and to your point.
• 8:07
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, like I've, I've never wanted to be.
• 8:10
  Daphne James Huff: I mean, if someone tomorrow was like, here's a million dollars, like, you can just write.
• 8:13
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I'm not going to say no, but it's like, yeah, I've made six figures from HR for the past, I don't know, six, seven years.
• 8:21
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I don't need writing to make six figures.
• 8:23
  Daphne James Huff: And I wouldn't want to put that pressure on it, you know.
• 8:26
  Daphne James Huff: So I think that's probably the case for a lot of people.
• 8:29
  Daphne James Huff: But for some reason, I don't know, I don't.
• 8:30
  Daphne James Huff: People are scared to say it or feel like there's some shoulds there.
• 8:34
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, it's just been really interesting over the past couple years to notice that.
• 8:38
  Emily: Yeah, I feel like it's often this all or nothing idea, right?
• 8:42
  Emily: It's like you either make no money on your writing or you're gonna make all your money on writing.
• 8:47
  Emily: And I do that.
• 8:50
  Emily: It's like I hesitate to be like that's a dangerous way to approach it because there are people who, we have friends who we know, people who have done that, right.
• 9:00
  Emily: Within a year or two they have made a full time career out of writing.
• 9:04
  Emily: That is fantastic.
• 9:05
  Emily: It can be done.
• 9:07
  Emily: But I think there's, it's dangerous to assume that that's the, the only and best way to do it, I think because it is very, very hard to be a full time author.
• 9:19
  Emily: Like Rachel and I are not full time authors and I think, and I know a lot of trad.
• 9:25
  Emily: Like even if you get a huge deal in trad, like what does full time author mean, right?
• 9:28
  Emily: Because the sustainability of that, there's pressure, there's deadlines, right?
• 9:33
  Emily: There's.
• 9:37
  Emily: I just got, I don't know, I think it's Anna Sprout Latimer.
• 9:42
  Emily: She's an, she's an agent who has a substack that I subscribe to and she just put out a substack newsletter last week that was basically like your advance will go down like, like most often the, the next like advance that you get on a book from your publisher in traditional is less than what they paid you for the first one.
• 10:03
  Emily: Like that's just like that.
• 10:04
  Emily: And it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen the other way around.
• 10:07
  Emily: But it's like people don't, I don't think people have a realistic, or at least this narrative of become the full, have a realistic sort of understanding of the unpredictability of being a full time author.
• 10:22
  Emily: And I think you have to, and I know we're going to get into this, but you have to be willing to accept that unpredictability.
• 10:28
  Rachel: Right?
• 10:28
  Emily: Like being a full time author is not being like, okay, now I'm, now I'm stable and have all the money I want and I'm going to make the same amount of money every year forever.
• 10:37
  Emily: Like that is not what being a
• 10:38
  Daphne James Huff: full time author is.
• 10:39
  Emily: And it doesn't mean that you can't achieve it.
• 10:41
  Emily: It doesn't mean it's, it can't work for you.
• 10:44
  Emily: But like, do you want that?
• 10:45
  Emily: Do you want that to work for you?
• 10:47
  Emily: We don't ask that question enough.
• 10:49
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, there's no job description.
• 10:50
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, I feel like writing work in hr, it's like, what's the job description for a full time writer?
• 10:54
  Daphne James Huff: And if it's 100% of your income is from royalties, period, I don't know how many people that's even true for.
• 11:02
  Daphne James Huff: Do you know what I mean?
• 11:02
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I think it's probably the same amount as professional athletes, you know, like, it's a very, very small amount.
• 11:09
  Daphne James Huff: That doesn't mean there's, you know, not tons of people playing, you know, playing local, you know, community leagues and loving it.
• 11:17
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 11:17
  Daphne James Huff: And so I think it's interesting that for writing we put that extra pressure on it for some reason that, like, oh, well, if you were, you know, if you, if you do it.
• 11:24
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Like to your point, it's either nothing or everything.
• 11:27
  Daphne James Huff: And there's most.
• 11:28
  Daphne James Huff: 99% of people are probably in the middle there somewhere, you know, but we don't hear from them.
• 11:32
  Daphne James Huff: We hear from either people who, you know, really, really love it and they're just doing it for, for the love it, which is great.
• 11:39
  Daphne James Huff: And then I always say, especially to indies, like when I would ask this question on my podcast, and it's not that I didn't believe people, but maybe it's.
• 11:45
  Daphne James Huff: I'm Capricorn, I don't know, very money focused.
• 11:47
  Daphne James Huff: But I'd be like, they're like, oh, I just want someone to read my book.
• 11:49
  Daphne James Huff: And I'm like, really right at all.
• 11:53
  Daphne James Huff: Like, if one person would read it.
• 11:55
  Daphne James Huff: And like, I mean, sure, that feels great, but in that case, you don't have to put it on kdp.
• 12:00
  Daphne James Huff: You can hand it out on the corner.
• 12:01
  Daphne James Huff: I don't know.
• 12:01
  Daphne James Huff: You know what I mean?
• 12:02
  Daphne James Huff: It's just like a.
• 12:03
  Daphne James Huff: If all it was to read, there's lots of ways to do that without it making any money, you know.
• 12:07
  Daphne James Huff: So for me, if you're out there, if you wanted to make money, but we're like almost ashamed to say it, right, that we want to make money.
• 12:12
  Daphne James Huff: Like, oh, if you really love it, then, then you don't care about the money.
• 12:15
  Daphne James Huff: You're doing it for the love of it.
• 12:16
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, what other job is that applicable?
• 12:16
  Daphne James Huff: I would argue, I don't know, like teachers maybe.
• 12:22
  Daphne James Huff: People seem to think like, oh, you just love it.
• 12:24
  Daphne James Huff: Like, you don't need to get A living wage, maybe like nurses, like, you know what I mean?
• 12:27
  Daphne James Huff: Like anything.
• 12:30
  Emily: Yeah.
• 12:31
  Daphne James Huff: In that kind of area.
• 12:32
  Daphne James Huff: It's like, oh, if you love something, you shouldn't be paid for it.
• 12:34
  Daphne James Huff: It's like, I don't.
• 12:35
  Emily: That's not, that's such, that's such capitalistic work.
• 12:38
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 12:38
  Emily: Right.
• 12:39
  Rachel: Like, it's like, it's like capitalism, but it's not even anti capitalism.
• 12:43
  Rachel: It's like the, the icky side of capitalism that because yes, you should be paid for your hard work and your labor, but then also at the same time we're like, oh, but it's, it's like create.
• 12:55
  Rachel: We're just doing it for our love.
• 12:57
  Rachel: So. And we're not putting in like, we're not producing that much, so it's okay if we don't get paid.
• 13:02
  Rachel: It's like there's, I do think people, number one, don't have honesty around what they really want and like their goals.
• 13:11
  Rachel: And there's shame behind saying like, no, I actually do want to make money from this and I also love it.
• 13:18
  Rachel: People.
• 13:18
  Rachel: I don't think people are honest with themselves and I also don't think that they're realistic with.
• 13:23
  Rachel: There's an idealized version and.
• 13:26
  Rachel: Which is beautiful.
• 13:27
  Rachel: I mean I really would love.
• 13:28
  Rachel: I was just talking with one of my full time author friends who works full time.
• 13:32
  Rachel: Author, full time.
• 13:33
  Rachel: There's an idealized version of like the full time author sits in front of their computer by themselves all day.
• 13:39
  Rachel: It's quiet.
• 13:40
  Rachel: They don't get interrupted.
• 13:41
  Rachel: They're able to crank out 10,000 words a day and finish all these books.
• 13:44
  Rachel: And like the real is the, the real story is that.
• 13:47
  Rachel: Nope, that's not happening.
• 13:48
  Rachel: There's also a lot of meetings in your day.
• 13:50
  Rachel: You have to talk with different publishers, you have to answer a lot of emails, you have to market.
• 13:54
  Rachel: You have to do like a lot of things that in the idealized version of what it means to be a full time author is not realistic.
• 14:03
  Rachel: And so when you put together someone who's not honest about what they really want and then they're, they're not down to earth and like what's possible then you get, I think the life that's not what you really want it to be.
• 14:15
  Daphne James Huff: Well, it's.
• 14:15
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Daphne James Huff: I mean, again, coming back to the job description and this is my HR coming out where it's like, I feel like I say this 800 times a day.
• 14:21
  Daphne James Huff: Like, where's the job description?
• 14:21
  Daphne James Huff: You know, if it's a promotion, if it's a hire, like what's the job description?
• 14:24
  Daphne James Huff: Oh, you know, and I've.
• 14:26
  Daphne James Huff: I've walked into roles too, where they didn't have a job description.
• 14:29
  Daphne James Huff: Those that has gone not as well as places I've been where I have had a job description.
• 14:34
  Daphne James Huff: So even just for me personally, knowing, like, knowing what's expected, knowing what, you know, those definitions of success are, right, like for the role.
• 14:40
  Daphne James Huff: And so for writers, it seems every.
• 14:43
  Daphne James Huff: You know, if there's, I don't know how many people in the world, if there's a billion writers in the world, there's a billion different job descriptions for a writer, you know.
• 14:49
  Daphne James Huff: And so I think working on that, first of all, you know, for people, if they really want to say, okay, what.
• 14:55
  Daphne James Huff: What are the parts about that I do like, you know, just learning more about what it is.
• 14:58
  Daphne James Huff: Like maybe some.
• 14:59
  Daphne James Huff: Somebody has no idea, right, that you don't have it, you know, because again, what does what a movie show us?
• 15:04
  Daphne James Huff: Even other books, you know, like, I think so many of the books I read, this could also just be in romance, but like, romance, we love to write about romance writers.
• 15:11
  Daphne James Huff: But I did just finish to.
• 15:13
  Daphne James Huff: I finished it this morning.
• 15:16
  Daphne James Huff: What is it?
• 15:17
  Daphne James Huff: The ending writes itself.
• 15:18
  Daphne James Huff: It's VE Schwab.
• 15:19
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Right.
• 15:20
  Daphne James Huff: And so it's writers.
• 15:22
  Daphne James Huff: And so even that, like, that's crime or mystery or whatever, right?
• 15:25
  Daphne James Huff: And it's still.
• 15:25
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 15:26
  Daphne James Huff: Like, we love writers, love writing about writers, but we don't write about them having day jobs.
• 15:32
  Daphne James Huff: We write about them having.
• 15:34
  Daphne James Huff: Just writing, you know, and so it's almost our own fantasy when we write that into a book.
• 15:38
  Daphne James Huff: It's like, yeah, this is what my life would be like.
• 15:40
  Daphne James Huff: And yet there's no, you know, maybe there's some.
• 15:42
  Daphne James Huff: Some drama with the publisher or something, but there's never like the endless emails and like the admin and filing taxes and all this stuff that goes into it.
• 15:50
  Daphne James Huff: It's just like writing and like, oh, no, I get interrupted by the sexy sheriff, whatever it is.
• 15:56
  Daphne James Huff: So it's very.
• 15:57
  Daphne James Huff: Well.
• 15:57
  Emily: And all the internal stuff too, like the pressure you're describing, all these, like, external things that we.
• 16:03
  Emily: That come with being an author, which are so valid.
• 16:06
  Emily: And then on top of that, you also have all the internal stuff that, that you have to deal with, right?
• 16:11
  Emily: If you're.
• 16:12
  Emily: If your livelihood is dependent on your writing, like, that changes.
• 16:16
  Emily: That changes your relationship with the writing and it changes your relationship with deadlines and like, how fast you need to write, how you push yourself.
• 16:24
  Emily: Like all kinds of hustle voices can come in and like, prefer perfectionism.
• 16:27
  Emily: And like, I've seen all those kinds of things pop up when someone suddenly has a deal or they've got successful indie books, right?
• 16:32
  Emily: Like now they have to produce, have to quote, unquote, Produce, quote, unquote, on a schedule.
• 16:40
  Emily: Quote, unquote, right?
• 16:40
  Emily: Like they.
• 16:42
  Emily: There's all these hustle culture narratives that we have to battle when there's that much external pressure on the writing that nobody wants to talk about either, right?
• 16:53
  Emily: There's this idea that, okay, if you get the deal or if you like go viral, right, and you like have like, the thing happens, right?
• 16:59
  Emily: It's a one time thing and then you're a full time author forever, that you get to just like not have problems.
• 17:08
  Emily: Like, I feel like that's, that's the promise of this myth is like, okay, now I get to just write without having to worry about dealing with people or dealing with financial issues or dealing weight.
• 17:19
  Emily: And it's like, no, all that baggage, it becomes your job, right?
• 17:21
  Emily: It becomes your job and it comes with all that baggage.
• 17:25
  Emily: And we don't talk enough about how you get to kind of choose that.
• 17:32
  Emily: Like, like you were saying earlier, like, no one talks about how most of us are somewhere in between, right?
• 17:35
  Emily: We're making money in a bunch of different ways or various ways, or we have a day job and we write on the side, right?
• 17:44
  Emily: Like there's.
• 17:45
  Emily: There's so many ways that our writing life can look that we don't talk about.
• 17:49
  Emily: And I feel like part of that, part of that is this hustle culture.
• 17:54
  Emily: When you guys were talking earlier about this idea of like, oh, I don't mean to make any money off this thing that I love, right?
• 17:58
  Emily: And then there's the I want to be a full time author, right?
• 18:02
  Emily: Those feel to me like two ends of a hustle culture spectrum, right?
• 18:06
  Emily: Where it's like you're either allowed to write for fun and have no stress and pressure, but you can't make money off of it, or you have to be a full time author, right?
• 18:17
  Emily: Like, if you say you want something in the middle, then you're like failing somehow, right?
• 18:21
  Emily: Like there's this like, external voice that, like, that's not enough or that's, you know, giving up or it's not valid, right?
• 18:30
  Emily: There's this.
• 18:31
  Emily: And I think it took me a while to sort of navigate around that voice to figure out, well, what's my actual voice, right?
• 18:37
  Emily: Like, what do I actually want?
• 18:42
  Emily: And for me, it was, I don't want this to my, like my financial stability to be dependent on My writing, like I want to make money off my writing.
• 18:50
  Emily: Like I would love to make a lot of money, but I don't want that to be the thing.
• 18:54
  Emily: Like for me, like it was important for me to not have that financial stress pressure on my writing or it would take all the joy out of it for me.
• 19:03
  Emily: But it took me a long time to figure out that that was my truth.
• 19:07
  Emily: Like for a long time I was seeking that full time author.
• 19:11
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 19:11
  Emily: Title name.
• 19:12
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, whatever.
• 19:13
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, the title.
• 19:14
  Daphne James Huff: I mean the title, it does feel really good.
• 19:16
  Daphne James Huff: I mean I think, right.
• 19:17
  Daphne James Huff: Seeing this in HR too.
• 19:18
  Daphne James Huff: We want the status, right?
• 19:18
  Daphne James Huff: We want the status and the money.
• 19:22
  Daphne James Huff: Like we want both.
• 19:23
  Daphne James Huff: And really it's interesting because probably the, the jobs that do make the most don't usually have the status.
• 19:27
  Daphne James Huff: Like I would say, like if you really want to make a lot of money, like from HR perspective, I mean sales makes bananas money.
• 19:33
  Daphne James Huff: But in terms of status, like people, you know, either they proudly say they're in sales or they kind of like play it down.
• 19:39
  Daphne James Huff: And so it's interesting too for like not even just indies like trad as well, you have to market, but really you're in sales.
• 19:44
  Daphne James Huff: And it's almost like a bad word.
• 19:46
  Emily: Yeah.
• 19:47
  Daphne James Huff: But it's like you can make if all you want is money, like go into sales, man.
• 19:51
  Daphne James Huff: I mean there's, it's, it's very, it's eye watering sometimes but.
• 19:56
  Daphne James Huff: Or it's like, oh.
• 19:57
  Daphne James Huff: Or it's, you know, really just those top, you know.
• 19:59
  Daphne James Huff: Oh, the C level, you know, like those titles like full time author feels like that status.
• 20:04
  Emily: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 20:05
  Daphne James Huff: But then the work that comes into it, we don't, we don't see it.
• 20:08
  Daphne James Huff: We don't know again that.
• 20:09
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Daphne James Huff: You were talking about the emotional pressures, like the inner work, things like that, which also, you know, being in hr, working with the C levels, they have too.
• 20:17
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 20:17
  Daphne James Huff: Like, don't worry, like they're not.
• 20:19
  Daphne James Huff: And I think this could just be a part of, you know, just getting older and like getting closer to the age that they all are.
• 20:23
  Daphne James Huff: Was like, oh no, no, no, nobody.
• 20:24
  Daphne James Huff: You know, when you're like 22, you're like, oh my gosh, you know, they're 55.
• 20:27
  Daphne James Huff: You must have it all figured out.
• 20:28
  Daphne James Huff: And like I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, they don't, no, they don't know anymore.
• 20:34
  Daphne James Huff: And it's, you know, the same for writers where you think, oh, if they're a full time writer, they must have it all figured out.
• 20:38
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 20:38
  Daphne James Huff: They must not have any doubts.
• 20:39
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, So I think it's just natural with any job, like whatever you're going for, whether it's full time writer or CEO or whatever it is.
• 20:46
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, if you don't know what the work is.
• 20:48
  Daphne James Huff: And this is where too, I wonder with my work in hr because I do see all the behind the scenes and like what goes into it then through the podcast and just being in the writing community for so long now, like, I know what, yeah, I know what goes into it.
• 20:58
  Daphne James Huff: I know people, yes, who are full time indie.
• 21:00
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, it's the impacts that, you know, AI is having, the impacts that like algorithm changes have, like, that stresses me out so much.
• 21:08
  Daphne James Huff: And this is coming from someone who, you know, works in tech and startups and has been laid off three times.
• 21:12
  Daphne James Huff: So it's not like it's any more stable like where I'm sitting, but it's, I feel like it's a little more stable like there's at least, you know, like I can go out to find someone looking for my skills versus writer.
• 21:22
  Daphne James Huff: It's.
• 21:23
  Daphne James Huff: You have to kind of go out and find those people.
• 21:25
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 21:25
  Daphne James Huff: And I think it's maybe a little bit of the reverse thing, but.
• 21:29
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah.
• 21:29
  Daphne James Huff: So rounds of title, just figuring out, is it the status?
• 21:31
  Daphne James Huff: You know, I think recently, like this year, this summer, I've kind of switched to writing short stories because I feel like, okay, I feel like there's this status of getting short stories in certain publications, things like that, where I'm like, all right, let's try that.
• 21:43
  Daphne James Huff: You know, like if full time author isn't going to be the thing, you know, that gets that status, like, okay, maybe just these short stories or whatever.
• 21:50
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 21:50
  Daphne James Huff: And so it's just figuring out what makes sense for you, for your community, for your goals.
• 21:55
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 21:56
  Daphne James Huff: And so it's like, yeah, if I want to teach at certain places or coach, you know, certain things, like having those things does matter.
• 22:01
  Rachel: Right.
• 22:01
  Daphne James Huff: And it's also, I think for writers, like we don't want it to matter.
• 22:05
  Daphne James Huff: But then someone who writes romance, you know, it's like already walking into a room knowing it's going to be seen a certain way versus if I wrote something else.
• 22:13
  Daphne James Huff: Even though I write Sweet woman.
• 22:15
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 22:15
  Rachel: Well, you know what is, I gotta go pull out my soapbox and get up on this.
• 22:19
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 22:20
  Daphne James Huff: Well, this summer, so one thing too was I went to a science fiction fantasy convention for the first time.
• 22:25
  Daphne James Huff: And since I was a little girl, I would go with my parents, but I been going to romance, you know, conventions the past, you Know, five, six, seven, whatever years.
• 22:35
  Daphne James Huff: And like it was so different.
• 22:37
  Daphne James Huff: First of all, there was a lot of boys, which was really weird.
• 22:39
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, oh, boys here.
• 22:43
  Daphne James Huff: But like the focus was like so not on making money versus a romance convention.
• 22:48
  Daphne James Huff: So it's kind of interesting too that like just being in that space and you're like, oh, maybe it's just like, I know it's not just the romance space like where there's this full time because you know, there's indies who are full time every, you know, in every genre.
• 22:59
  Daphne James Huff: But like the romance, it's almost like it makes so much money it's the highest selling genre.
• 23:05
  Daphne James Huff: So why aren't you full time almost?
• 23:05
  Daphne James Huff: There's almost like an extra level of pressure in romance where it's like, well, it's the biggest selling so it should be easy to make a full time writing.
• 23:13
  Daphne James Huff: And it's like, well no, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's not.
• 23:16
  Daphne James Huff: But no, I can't remember I'm talking about this.
• 23:18
  Daphne James Huff: But, but yeah, so just depending on genre and like your goals and things like that.
• 23:23
  Daphne James Huff: So.
• 23:24
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, titles matter and you know, I wish they didn't but we live in a world where they do and so it'd be great if they didn't.
• 23:30
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, if, if.
• 23:33
  Daphne James Huff: And I think for people, if what you're looking for is whatever that feeling is from saying full time writer, trying to figure out where else you can get it either in your current role.
• 23:43
  Daphne James Huff: You know, I think a lot of people I'm, I mean, I think I'm really lucky.
• 23:46
  Daphne James Huff: I do love what I do and I'm really good at it and I get really well paid for it.
• 23:50
  Daphne James Huff: And if you're not, then I get why full time writing seems amazing, right?
• 23:53
  Daphne James Huff: It seems like an escape and like great.
• 23:55
  Daphne James Huff: I don't have to deal with, you know, people or this politics or whatever, you know, like we just said, you do still have paperwork, you just still have taxes.
• 24:01
  Daphne James Huff: You do, and you're doing it all on your own, right?
• 24:03
  Daphne James Huff: There's no HR to blame if things go wrong.
• 24:05
  Daphne James Huff: That's also my job.
• 24:06
  Daphne James Huff: Things go wrong, it's HR's fault, which is fine.
• 24:09
  Daphne James Huff: But in writing like it goes wrong, like it's kind of your fault.
• 24:12
  Daphne James Huff: And so there's that extra pressure of like not having that internal support system that you get at a company for good or for worse, you know, having colleagues and managers and a whole structure in larger, more developed organizations.
• 24:24
  Daphne James Huff: Maybe not so much startups, but I think, you know, just what Are you not getting at your current job that, like, maybe switching jobs or switching teams or something?
• 24:32
  Daphne James Huff: You could still get it and get paid, you know, to cover your bills and stuff so that writing, you can take off that pressure.
• 24:41
  Daphne James Huff: So I think that's something I've been thinking a lot about, too, over the past couple years.
• 24:44
  Daphne James Huff: Where is it just me that I just really love my job and like everybody else, all other writers just hate their jobs?
• 24:49
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, I don't think that's true.
• 24:50
  Daphne James Huff: I think a lot of people really like their jobs, but for some reason, they're not allowed to say it in the same way that you're not allowed to say, I want my writing to make money, you know?
• 24:58
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:01
  Rachel: So you said a couple times this idea of a job description, and we're already starting to talk about, like, okay, how do you navigate this?
• 25:09
  Rachel: And how do you plan for the life that you want?
• 25:12
  Rachel: But there's a couple things that you've mentioned, like, knowing, like, thinking about it like a job description or knowing, do you want to make money from this or what?
• 25:20
  Rachel: What is the time expectations that you want to have on your life?
• 25:25
  Rachel: Like, what's the balance that you want to have in your life?
• 25:27
  Rachel: So where do you recommend people start kind of thinking about this so that they can start thinking, you know, to a year, two, three years down the road of, like, I want my life to look like this.
• 25:41
  Rachel: What do we do to plan?
• 25:44
  Daphne James Huff: So I think.
• 25:46
  Daphne James Huff: Big question.
• 25:48
  Daphne James Huff: Well, I'm trying to think, how did I get where I am today?
• 25:50
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 25:50
  Daphne James Huff: Like, part of it is, is I am so happy with my life and how much I do and having all the different pieces.
• 25:56
  Daphne James Huff: And, like, that's fine for me.
• 25:58
  Daphne James Huff: So, like, how did I get here?
• 25:58
  Daphne James Huff: And I think part of it is trial and error to a certain extent.
• 26:02
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 26:03
  Daphne James Huff: I think, like I said, like, originally, a lot of my choices weren't intentional around writing in my career, but now they are.
• 26:08
  Daphne James Huff: And so that just sometimes just takes time.
• 26:10
  Daphne James Huff: And I feel like that's the worst thing to hear.
• 26:13
  Daphne James Huff: But, like, the older I get, the more it is just like.
• 26:16
  Daphne James Huff: And, you know, in.
• 26:17
  Daphne James Huff: You two are parents as well.
• 26:18
  Daphne James Huff: And so sometimes it's like you just.
• 26:19
  Daphne James Huff: They just gotta fall down, and then they know they can't go climbing on that thing.
• 26:23
  Daphne James Huff: You know, you just gotta watch them fall.
• 26:26
  Daphne James Huff: And, you know, in hr, too, like, it's.
• 26:28
  Daphne James Huff: I try not to compare HR to parenting too much, but a lot of it is, like, I told you that was gonna happen.
• 26:33
  Rachel: Yep.
• 26:34
  Daphne James Huff: Then you just gotta let them watch it.
• 26:36
  Daphne James Huff: Happen.
• 26:36
  Daphne James Huff: So part of it is just time and figuring it out and having those trying, you know, those try fail cycles.
• 26:42
  Daphne James Huff: If you're going to get into compare it now even more to writing.
• 26:46
  Daphne James Huff: And so until you get to your.
• 26:48
  Daphne James Huff: Oh, there was a whole thing to my head, it all written around like, where are you in your career versus like comparing it to like a story structure, right?
• 26:54
  Daphne James Huff: You can have like mini arcs, like within your career, right?
• 26:57
  Daphne James Huff: Like I'm on my, I don't know, my second or third arc with all these layoffs.
• 27:00
  Daphne James Huff: And then, um, within a day even you can have, right, the little, the battle against whoever from accounting for the, you know, the email and like your whole little battle, right?
• 27:08
  Daphne James Huff: So there can be these little story arcs in your day, in your career.
• 27:11
  Daphne James Huff: So that could be helpful.
• 27:12
  Daphne James Huff: So for writers is think about where are you in your arc, right?
• 27:15
  Daphne James Huff: And so what resources Are you kind of in the early stages, right?
• 27:18
  Daphne James Huff: Are you just going into the new.
• 27:20
  Daphne James Huff: Are we at the, you know, break into Act 2?
• 27:22
  Daphne James Huff: Are you already gearing up for the final battle and you need to gather your resources?
• 27:25
  Daphne James Huff: So just kind of looking at it that way might be helpful for some writers if they're really, you know, structure focused.
• 27:35
  Daphne James Huff: So I think that's.
• 27:36
  Daphne James Huff: That can be really helpful to just think of it.
• 27:39
  Daphne James Huff: And also just again, not a single arc, but like multiple arcs.
• 27:41
  Daphne James Huff: You'll have multiple arcs in your life, in your day and your career.
• 27:44
  Daphne James Huff: So it's not like there's one big bad.
• 27:45
  Daphne James Huff: There's going to be many, many, many internal and external.
• 27:51
  Daphne James Huff: So yeah, so I think just starting there is one way and then just learning more.
• 27:55
  Daphne James Huff: And I think that's where two time just kind of helps is because, yeah, you talk to more people, you get to know the writers and you'll find those models.
• 28:01
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I think for me, the big like light bulb moment was at a romance convention and she wrote for Harley Quinn.
• 28:07
  Daphne James Huff: And I've been submitting to Harley Quinn for a couple of years.
• 28:09
  Daphne James Huff: And so I was talking to her about kind of, because that for me is like a path.
• 28:12
  Daphne James Huff: Like you submit, it's a couple thousand dollars advance.
• 28:15
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's not a lot, but like, okay, great, that's enough to like help pay for one of my indie books, you know, like, trying to figure out the math that way.
• 28:21
  Daphne James Huff: So I was talking to her about it, you know, for advice and stuff like that.
• 28:24
  Daphne James Huff: She was a lawyer her entire career, you know, and she loved it.
• 28:27
  Daphne James Huff: And she had time to write on the train and during her lunch breaks and like, and she had a great Career, Right.
• 28:32
  Daphne James Huff: Being a lawyer.
• 28:33
  Daphne James Huff: And then when she was done and now she has, I don't know, 20, 30 books with harlequin and like can go to these conventions and it's great.
• 28:37
  Daphne James Huff: So then once I saw that model, I was like, oh great, that's what I'll do.
• 28:41
  Daphne James Huff: Like, and then just like the pressure just kind of, you know.
• 28:44
  Daphne James Huff: So I think for writers, like, seeing as you meet writers and you're hearing their stories, like what for you feels like, oh, that could be me, you know, and maybe it is someone like that.
• 28:54
  Daphne James Huff: Maybe it's someone who did after a year, you know, like write however many books or do whatever marketing campaign and was able to do the full time.
• 29:02
  Daphne James Huff: So just going out and seeking those examples and seeing what feels like the right step for you and what you can really see yourself doing.
• 29:11
  Daphne James Huff: So there we go.
• 29:12
  Daphne James Huff: I think those were three different ideas maybe.
• 29:13
  Daphne James Huff: So hopefully that's helpful.
• 29:15
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, I love that and I, you've mentioned this a few times, but I love this idea of get, get more data about like what people's writing lives look like, especially those full time authors.
• 29:24
  Emily: Like really ask them what is it really?
• 29:27
  Daphne James Huff: Like, like, yeah, yeah.
• 29:30
  Daphne James Huff: And not like the Instagram one.
• 29:31
  Daphne James Huff: Like it's great for example stuff, but like, no, like the actual, yeah, the actual like one thing at the science fiction convention too, they did where they call them, they call them coffee clatches, which is like, and you just sign up for free and you can sit with the writer.
• 29:43
  Daphne James Huff: And that's why I'd gone to this convention was to talk to this one writer, this one book that I loved.
• 29:46
  Daphne James Huff: And I was like, I can just like sit at a table with her and talk to her.
• 29:49
  Daphne James Huff: Even me after like, you know, how many years of writing and talking to lots of writers, like, I still get, it's still really cool to do and like you could just ask her whatever.
• 29:56
  Daphne James Huff: And she did.
• 29:57
  Daphne James Huff: And she's like, yeah.
• 29:58
  Daphne James Huff: And I was full time marketing person and was making a bunch and this makes way less, but it's enough that I can do it.
• 30:03
  Daphne James Huff: And so she was, she was honest, right?
• 30:03
  Daphne James Huff: She's like, this makes way less.
• 30:05
  Daphne James Huff: Like she wasn't trying to say this makes just as much as my big fancy corporate job.
• 30:10
  Daphne James Huff: So just being able to ask those questions.
• 30:13
  Daphne James Huff: So there are opportunities, you know, I mean the conference was, wasn't free, but it wasn't a lot.
• 30:17
  Daphne James Huff: And then you know, it was local and so there should be any opportunity you have to ask those questions directly.
• 30:22
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, can be really helpful.
• 30:23
  Daphne James Huff: And yeah, I'm A big data.
• 30:24
  Daphne James Huff: Yes.
• 30:25
  Daphne James Huff: I'm like the HR data person.
• 30:26
  Daphne James Huff: Like I'm more in the systems now, which is also a choice.
• 30:29
  Daphne James Huff: Like I did do a lot more of that emotional labor of HR earlier in my career.
• 30:34
  Daphne James Huff: In the past couple of years I switched to behind the scenes data and I'm like, oh, look at that.
• 30:38
  Daphne James Huff: I have all this energy now for writing.
• 30:39
  Daphne James Huff: So that's one of the more intentional switches.
• 30:41
  Daphne James Huff: So I think too, like I was saying, if people are unhappy in their career and they're thinking writing is the way out, it's like, well again, just see if there's a way in your current career to like.
• 30:52
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Cause again it's the emotional part.
• 30:53
  Daphne James Huff: Like, yeah, I, I mean nurses, you can't really change much.
• 30:55
  Daphne James Huff: But like maybe you go into teaching and maybe that's less, you know, or something less patient, you know, focused and then you can have a little more of that because it's emotional.
• 31:03
  Daphne James Huff: Like that's the biggest thing.
• 31:04
  Daphne James Huff: I think if you're any kind of emotional labor heavy job, like writing is very hard at the end of the day.
• 31:10
  Daphne James Huff: So getting into something that gives you more of that space is, is always going to help.
• 31:16
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.
• 31:17
  Rachel: I do feel like people often don't think about making changes to their person, personal life or their professional life in order to facilitate their writing life.
• 31:27
  Rachel: It's usually the other way around where obviously we all want more time to write and so but it, there's like usually not enough time.
• 31:35
  Rachel: So people will try to fit writing in where they can.
• 31:38
  Rachel: But my husband, my husband was a wildland firefighter for a really long time.
• 31:44
  Rachel: Went back to school and got a graphic design degree.
• 31:47
  Rachel: Worked in graphic design for like five years or so and then was really, really unhappy at the company that he worked at.
• 31:56
  Rachel: Had no problem with graphic design.
• 31:57
  Rachel: Like loves art, loves graphic design.
• 32:00
  Rachel: He's such a creative person and is an incredible like physical artist, which is not my zone of genius.
• 32:08
  Rachel: I cannot draw for shit.
• 32:10
  Rachel: So I'm so mad at it.
• 32:11
  Rachel: But he's like such a great artist but in the springtime he was like very unhappy with this job.
• 32:17
  Rachel: And so we decided like, well, why don't you just go get a quote easy job somewhere else.
• 32:23
  Rachel: Like go get a different job.
• 32:25
  Rachel: It doesn't matter where you were as long as we have health insurance.
• 32:28
  Daphne James Huff: So that's a big thing.
• 32:31
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 32:31
  Rachel: Go get another job.
• 32:32
  Rachel: So he got a job at Costco and it's like way more physically demanding because he's not only working in retail.
• 32:40
  Rachel: Again, we both worked in retail in our past, but he's working in a retail space.
• 32:45
  Rachel: He's also lifting like 60 pound boxes all day long, all day, like every day.
• 32:51
  Rachel: So it's like very physically demanding.
• 32:53
  Rachel: But he's happier.
• 32:54
  Rachel: And now he has more time energetically to be doing other things that he loves.
• 33:01
  Rachel: So he started a business with his best friend.
• 33:03
  Rachel: And I'm like, well, you're where I was.
• 33:05
  Daphne James Huff: Yes, a couple years from now.
• 33:09
  Rachel: So then I had a meeting with him and his best friend to like, give them like consultant advice.
• 33:15
  Rachel: Here's how you start a business and here's how you need to know things.
• 33:19
  Rachel: But now he's, you know, six months ago he was just so completely burnt out.
• 33:24
  Rachel: It wouldn't have been like that.
• 33:25
  Rachel: And I do think there's such value in being like, okay, well, he took a lesser paying job, but he's happier.
• 33:32
  Rachel: And if we could, thankfully, we have enough privilege to be able to make that work.
• 33:36
  Rachel: Right.
• 33:37
  Rachel: Not everybody can.
• 33:38
  Rachel: But I do think there are changes you can make in your life if you want a different life.
• 33:42
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, yeah, I know.
• 33:43
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, it is a lot of privilege.
• 33:45
  Daphne James Huff: And I think too, for me, like, even that switching within my career, I'm in the Boston area, so that job opportunity is very different.
• 33:51
  Daphne James Huff: You know, a little different post Covid, but like pre Covid, when it was all like, it's part of the reason we moved here.
• 33:56
  Daphne James Huff: We moved over from France, like, and not my husband's like, moved to Wisconsin.
• 33:59
  Daphne James Huff: Like this French guy wanted to move to Wisconsin.
• 34:01
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, no, no, we're not gonna do well there.
• 34:05
  Daphne James Huff: So I knew we'd have more opportunities here.
• 34:07
  Daphne James Huff: And it's.
• 34:07
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, like, we can move around and we can change jobs.
• 34:09
  Daphne James Huff: And it's been again, these three layoffs.
• 34:10
  Daphne James Huff: Like, yes, they were very stressful, but I didn't have any trouble finding a job afterwards because of where I am, you know, and that's not the same everywhere for everyone.
• 34:19
  Daphne James Huff: And I know that and I acknowledge that.
• 34:21
  Daphne James Huff: So it's, you know.
• 34:21
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, it seems to be, oh, just, yeah, like, change your job, change this.
• 34:24
  Daphne James Huff: And it's like, it's not easy.
• 34:26
  Daphne James Huff: So I do want to acknowledge that for people listening, like, I know a situation's gonna be so different.
• 34:30
  Daphne James Huff: And it's like, I, you know, I wish it was easy for everybody.
• 34:33
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 34:33
  Daphne James Huff: To do that.
• 34:34
  Daphne James Huff: But it is something that, to your point.
• 34:36
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 34:36
  Daphne James Huff: That if you're trying to squeeze in the writing around the life, it might be the life that has to change.
• 34:41
  Daphne James Huff: Like, and, and it might be ways that you might not realize and having.
• 34:46
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 34:46
  Daphne James Huff: Having someone help you kind of maybe look at that can be really helpful.
• 34:48
  Daphne James Huff: I had a business coach this summer, actually, because it was for more the.
• 34:53
  Daphne James Huff: The HR job, actually, like just kind of getting ahead because even hr, we're not great at advocating for our promotions and things like that.
• 34:59
  Daphne James Huff: It can be really hard.
• 35:00
  Daphne James Huff: So I was working with this career business coach and of course then we started talking about writing.
• 35:05
  Daphne James Huff: And she's like, well, why don't you want it to be full time?
• 35:06
  Daphne James Huff: And we really dug into that, right?
• 35:06
  Daphne James Huff: And she's like, well, what would it take?
• 35:09
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, well, I'd have to do this many books and do this and this and this.
• 35:11
  Daphne James Huff: And she's like, well, do you want to do that?
• 35:11
  Daphne James Huff: And I was like, no.
• 35:13
  Daphne James Huff: She's like, okay, well then own it.
• 35:15
  Daphne James Huff: And like, it was actually a period of grief even.
• 35:17
  Daphne James Huff: So I think too, if people are so stuck on that idea, there was like some grieving that I had to do to be like, okay, like, this is something I keep saying I didn't want, but I think a little part of me did want it.
• 35:28
  Daphne James Huff: Well, always, again, someone shows up tomorrow like, here's a million dollars for this book.
• 35:31
  Daphne James Huff: I'm not gonna say no, but like, grieving, like, that's not gonna happen.
• 35:36
  Daphne James Huff: Or you know, the full time, like, the work it would take and the work I know it takes, I'm not gonna.
• 35:41
  Daphne James Huff: I don't wanna do because I have other things I wanna do.
• 35:43
  Daphne James Huff: Like, that's acknowledging it.
• 35:45
  Daphne James Huff: It is.
• 35:46
  Daphne James Huff: It is hard and it is a grief process and you have to work on that.
• 35:49
  Daphne James Huff: And I might, you know, still be working on it for a while, but it's like, none of it's easy.
• 35:54
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 35:54
  Daphne James Huff: And so I think just acknowledging that too, that it could be something you really, really, really want and it's not going to happen.
• 36:01
  Daphne James Huff: And that's really sad.
• 36:02
  Daphne James Huff: And it's okay to be really sad that it's not gonna.
• 36:05
  Daphne James Huff: But it's not gonna be the life that you thought it was gonna be.
• 36:08
  Daphne James Huff: But that's.
• 36:09
  Daphne James Huff: There are ways to find, you know, joy in the life you currently have.
• 36:13
  Daphne James Huff: And like, I'm kind of rolling my eyes because that's a little too woo for this Capricorn.
• 36:16
  Daphne James Huff: But it's.
• 36:17
  Daphne James Huff: If that helps other people, I think.
• 36:19
  Daphne James Huff: And we can say that.
• 36:21
  Emily: I think there can be a lot of, like, it's actually really difficult to figure out what you want.
• 36:27
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, humans are tough, especially as a woman.
• 36:31
  Emily: Especially if you're not practiced in it.
• 36:33
  Emily: Right.
• 36:33
  Emily: Like, if you haven't, like, if you haven't had the, the chance of the privilege of awareness to think about it.
• 36:40
  Emily: It can be very, very difficult to untangle what culture says that you should want, what the parent voices that have been ingrained in your brain.
• 36:50
  Emily: And like all the, you know, the mentors, like all the, all the, many, many voices that represent the culture that you grew up in.
• 36:57
  Emily: You know, everybody has a slightly unique circumstance in that, in that way or experience in that way, right?
• 37:05
  Emily: Whatever those voices are telling you, it can be really difficult to, to hear past them to figure out what it is that you want, because you might not even know.
• 37:14
  Emily: And so I think like you earlier, you said, you know, talking to authors who have these sort of quote unquote hybrid careers, right, where they write and do something else or make money in a different way, right?
• 37:28
  Emily: And learning about their circumstances.
• 37:31
  Emily: And I think, Daphne, you used the phrase something along the lines of like, oh, I could do that, right?
• 37:36
  Emily: Like that feeling, that gut instinct of like, oh, that sounds interesting to me.
• 37:43
  Emily: That's a, that's like a feeling I think that we can follow.
• 37:46
  Emily: One of the most helpful exercises that I have done in my personal journey with this was a long time ago.
• 37:56
  Emily: I think it was Amy McNee had a journal prompt in a book or on a podcast or something, but it was basically like, look like, imagine six months from now or a year from now or five years from now.
• 38:08
  Emily: And how do you want to feel?
• 38:10
  Emily: Like, what do you want your days to look like?
• 38:10
  Emily: And like, how do you want to feel?
• 38:14
  Emily: And I think that can be a really helpful question because oftentimes how we want to feel is not necessarily in alignment with what our brain is telling us we want, right?
• 38:25
  Emily: Like how you want to feel with your writing might not actually be the feeling you get from being a full time author, right?
• 38:33
  Emily: And so like, the more, the more that you can attune to, like, how do you want to feel day to day?
• 38:39
  Emily: Like, because that's, I mean, that's what life is.
• 38:41
  Emily: Life is day after day after day, right?
• 38:43
  Emily: And like, how do you want to feel, right?
• 38:43
  Emily: Do you want to feel this like, drive in ambition to like make money with your writing?
• 38:48
  Emily: Do you want to feel the freedom to just create without pressure?
• 38:55
  Emily: Do you want to feel right?
• 38:55
  Emily: Like there's no right or wrong answers to how you want to feel?
• 38:59
  Emily: But I think if we can attune to how we want our writing journeys to feel, that can give us a lot of information about what publishing paths or futures we might experiment with and pursue to see if they give Us those feelings.
• 39:16
  Emily: Because for me, that was the big shift is like, I. I felt like if I was gonna.
• 39:21
  Emily: If I was a full time author, it would somehow alleviate a lot of stress and, like, creative pressure.
• 39:28
  Emily: And it took me through experiment and experience, right.
• 39:32
  Emily: Learning, like, that wasn't gonna be the case for me.
• 39:35
  Emily: And so I could do a lot of mindset work to get rid of some of that stress and creative pressure.
• 39:40
  Emily: But I also could, like, choose to, you know, make money in different ways or, like, there's a lot of different factors in your life that can contribute to how you want to feel day to day in your writing and in your life.
• 39:52
  Emily: Um, and so, like, Rachel, you were talking about your husband and his, his career shift, right?
• 39:57
  Emily: It was a feeling like, how do I want to feel?
• 39:59
  Emily: I don't want to feel like this anymore.
• 40:01
  Emily: And I think society could, you know, easily, like, tell us, quote unquote, that, you know, it's not acceptable to, like,
• 40:08
  Daphne James Huff: then go work at Costco when you
• 40:09
  Emily: have, like, this graphic design job at this company.
• 40:12
  Rachel: Highly qualified and, like, should be.
• 40:15
  Rachel: I mean, he has a technical art degree.
• 40:17
  Emily: Yeah.
• 40:18
  Daphne James Huff: In there, right?
• 40:19
  Emily: Yeah.
• 40:19
  Daphne James Huff: I know you said you have the shit in there.
• 40:21
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 40:21
  Daphne James Huff: It's the shoulds.
• 40:22
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 40:22
  Daphne James Huff: That's why I love listening, you guys.
• 40:23
  Daphne James Huff: Because it's like, it is.
• 40:25
  Daphne James Huff: It's the shoulds, right?
• 40:26
  Emily: There's so many shoulds just in that it doesn't matter.
• 40:29
  Emily: Like, those shoulds don't matter.
• 40:30
  Emily: How he wants to feel is what matters.
• 40:32
  Emily: And he gained that feeling, right?
• 40:32
  Emily: And like.
• 40:34
  Emily: And so.
• 40:35
  Emily: But I feel like you do have to sit with, like, what you want that feeling to be in order to, like, combat those, Those external voices, right?
• 40:42
  Emily: Of like, what everybody else is going to think or say about the things that you choose to do.
• 40:49
  Daphne James Huff: You got to be really strong.
• 40:50
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's, it's.
• 40:51
  Daphne James Huff: And this is why, too.
• 40:52
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I don't know that it's something you can have at 18, 20.
• 40:55
  Daphne James Huff: I mean, if you do.
• 40:56
  Daphne James Huff: Amazing, right?
• 40:57
  Daphne James Huff: But, like, it's definitely something that's.
• 40:59
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, way easier, you know, just the more life experience you have.
• 41:03
  Daphne James Huff: And like, it's. And I wish.
• 41:05
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 41:05
  Daphne James Huff: I wish there was a shortcut.
• 41:06
  Daphne James Huff: And like.
• 41:07
  Daphne James Huff: And I say all the time to my therapist, I'm like, oh, if only I'd known, like, back then.
• 41:10
  Daphne James Huff: She's like, but you didn't.
• 41:11
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's fine, you know, But I'm like, ah, but if only I'd known then.
• 41:15
  Daphne James Huff: And so I, I do get kind of, like, upset sometimes where I wish I Could yeah.
• 41:18
  Daphne James Huff: Just like skip a couple steps.
• 41:19
  Daphne James Huff: It was like, nope, I just have to live this and go through this and I get more confident in, in my skills and yes.
• 41:25
  Daphne James Huff: And, and what I want.
• 41:26
  Daphne James Huff: And yeah, it's like knowing what you want.
• 41:27
  Daphne James Huff: I don't.
• 41:28
  Daphne James Huff: Cause I think you just don't even know when you're younger.
• 41:30
  Daphne James Huff: Like when what, what is even out there to want, you know, Like I started my HR career in Europe where I was living at the time.
• 41:36
  Daphne James Huff: And there's not even the same path.
• 41:39
  Daphne James Huff: Like the laws are different.
• 41:40
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 41:40
  Daphne James Huff: Like, but even the pathways were different working in Luxembourg where there's like one industry which is like finance.
• 41:45
  Daphne James Huff: So even working in a different industry.
• 41:47
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 41:47
  Daphne James Huff: And so here it just feels like in the States we moved back.
• 41:50
  Daphne James Huff: That's one of the reasons.
• 41:51
  Daphne James Huff: But it was just like look at all these industries and look at all these jobs and like every day now like in hr I'm like look at this job and look at like I didn't even know these were jobs, you know, like when I was 20.
• 41:59
  Daphne James Huff: So it's just, yeah, you can't know everything there is, you know, at first.
• 42:04
  Daphne James Huff: And so you just kind of, kind of keep learning.
• 42:05
  Daphne James Huff: And when, yeah like you're saying the feeling when something feels right, just learning to listen to that and learning to pay attention to that because yeah it's, it's when it feel like you'll know when something feels wrong, you might not know it feels right.
• 42:18
  Daphne James Huff: So I think that maybe if people aren't sure what they want, I think you can usually feel you feel stronger.
• 42:23
  Daphne James Huff: Like what you definitely don't want.
• 42:25
  Daphne James Huff: I think maybe that.
• 42:26
  Daphne James Huff: And that's where people are running towards the full time writing or whatever it is because they don't know whatever they're currently in.
• 42:32
  Daphne James Huff: They know it feels wrong.
• 42:33
  Daphne James Huff: So like okay, well so they might have to try and maybe they do try it and they're like actually like, like Emily, you said, you know, like oh, I thought it would get rid of this pressure and maybe you try it and you're like, oh it didn't.
• 42:42
  Daphne James Huff: And you go back, you know, like this been looking like lately too like for like consulting and HR and things like that.
• 42:48
  Daphne James Huff: And there was a consulting local consulting group and so many people there were actually had been consultants and are now back in full time company roles and like just hearing that to like retrain my brain, like that's not a failure, you know, like it's, they're doing the right choice for what they need and it's just exposing yourself over and over and over to, you know, there are other paths, even though one we're seeing the most in movies, in books, you know, even writers, like, we love to write it.
• 43:14
  Daphne James Huff: So maybe this is, I don't, I don't think I've ever written a writer.
• 43:17
  Daphne James Huff: And I guess maybe I could draw a line in the sand and say, like, I never will because I don't want to perpetuate that stereotype that like, writing life is so amazing.
• 43:25
  Daphne James Huff: But it is something.
• 43:25
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, you kind of pay attention to when you're, even when you're reading and you're like, this book is great, but it is still, you know, fiction and a fantasy.
• 43:33
  Daphne James Huff: Even when it's contemporary romance.
• 43:35
  Rachel: Yeah. People are allowed to change their minds.
• 43:37
  Rachel: I feel like we have this expectation that we commit to a path and then you're on that path and you suffer to continue or you change and you're giving something up.
• 43:47
  Rachel: And it's like, no.
• 43:49
  Daphne James Huff: Was that sunk cost fallacy?
• 43:50
  Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:51
  Rachel: The sun can cost fallacy.
• 43:53
  Rachel: I also think people feel like they need to explain their choices to the world around them.
• 43:57
  Rachel: And you don't have to explain your choices to me.
• 44:00
  Rachel: I mean, like, I love you and I don't care.
• 44:02
  Rachel: Right.
• 44:02
  Rachel: Like, I think most people will get really worried.
• 44:05
  Rachel: There was a long time that I felt like I had to explain a lot of my choices to my family and like to the people around me and to.
• 44:12
  Rachel: So I worked at a startup company and it ended up being a very successful company.
• 44:17
  Rachel: And I actually worked in HR for six months at this startup company.
• 44:21
  Rachel: But I had a lot, I had a lot of different jobs at that company because I was moving around a lot.
• 44:25
  Rachel: But when I quit, I was quitting like a really high paying job with excellent benefits from this company that had become really successful to like start my whole business.
• 44:34
  Rachel: And I felt like I had to explain that away to like everyone to like prove I'm not crazy and this is a good idea and like, we can do it and I can pull it off.
• 44:43
  Rachel: And now I'm, now I'm like, I'll do whatever.
• 44:47
  Rachel: Why I don't.
• 44:49
  Rachel: So I'm not going to explain myself to you.
• 44:52
  Rachel: But like, you know, I do think there is a lot of pressure.
• 44:56
  Rachel: When I was working at that company, for example, everyone knew I was a writer.
• 45:01
  Rachel: And so everyone would ask me, when are you going to be full time?
• 45:03
  Rachel: Like, when are you going to quit to be writing?
• 45:05
  Daphne James Huff: Where did they even, where did they get the idea?
• 45:07
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's not like, like it's like somehow in the air around us that, like, oh, if you write, like, you must want to do it full time, and it's like, where did this, like, written on your forehead when you're a baby?
• 45:16
  Daphne James Huff: I don't know.
• 45:17
  Rachel: They think there's, like, some.
• 45:19
  Rachel: If you put in enough effort, you will get published and you will make the money.
• 45:22
  Rachel: As if it's the same that if you put in an effort into a job, there's likelihood you'll be promoted and you'll make them more money.
• 45:29
  Rachel: It's not the same.
• 45:30
  Daphne James Huff: Right, but even that, I mean, even the story from.
• 45:33
  Daphne James Huff: And you're seeing it now with, like, you know, again, all the layoffs and all the careers and this whole traditional path of get a good.
• 45:39
  Daphne James Huff: You know, get a college degree, and then you get your good job and then you're set for life.
• 45:43
  Daphne James Huff: Right?
• 45:43
  Daphne James Huff: So I think even that.
• 45:44
  Daphne James Huff: So I just think in general, society is, you know, sometimes, like, we're in, like, what, the end days of, like, the Roman Empire, and things are just falling apart all around us.
• 45:51
  Daphne James Huff: But, like, it is a little bit that where, like, these stories come from.
• 45:55
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Culture and how we're raised and what we see and what we hear.
• 45:58
  Daphne James Huff: And so it's really, really hard to see another path or without actively going out to seek it.
• 46:05
  Daphne James Huff: And, yeah, it's really, really hard to be so confident in it.
• 46:08
  Daphne James Huff: And I think, you know, like, with Rachel now, you're like, yeah, whatever.
• 46:12
  Daphne James Huff: I don't have to explain, but I'm sure there's still moments where you're like, right.
• 46:14
  Daphne James Huff: It's never, like, 100% confident.
• 46:16
  Daphne James Huff: 100%.
• 46:17
  Daphne James Huff: And I think, you know, it's just like, we know ourselves, so we're aware of all of our thing.
• 46:22
  Daphne James Huff: It's not even.
• 46:23
  Daphne James Huff: It doesn't even have to be Instagram.
• 46:24
  Rachel: Right.
• 46:24
  Daphne James Huff: Like, can just be talking to somebody on the street and, like, the 10 minutes, you know, you're talking, oh, they must have it all together, and then they don't.
• 46:30
  Daphne James Huff: You just only saw 10 minutes, you know, with another writer, you know, and even her, like, this writer at the conference, I was like, oh, man, it must be great.
• 46:37
  Daphne James Huff: But even though I knew in my head, even as she was talking, I was like, sure.
• 46:41
  Daphne James Huff: She wakes up every day and she's like, oh, my gosh, this is, you know, this is so hard, and I can't do it, you know, and.
• 46:45
  Daphne James Huff: But she wasn't going to tell us that, you know, because, yeah, we don't want to.
• 46:48
  Daphne James Huff: We want.
• 46:49
  Daphne James Huff: We want people to hear the good stuff, too.
• 46:50
  Daphne James Huff: So I think there's part of it too.
• 46:52
  Daphne James Huff: And finding writer friends that are maybe honest enough too to tell you what it's really like.
• 46:58
  Daphne James Huff: Because yeah, you kind of need like, I think I've said it before but like in like my coaching and stuff or on HR too, like you need peers, right, who are like right at the same time level or maybe a little bit above.
• 47:11
  Daphne James Huff: Right?
• 47:11
  Daphne James Huff: Then you have like the people way above who are kind of like your goal, you know, your targets.
• 47:16
  Rachel: Right.
• 47:16
  Daphne James Huff: But who you need to be listening to is the people right around you.
• 47:18
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's not so much the people like 100 steps ahead, it's the people who are like two or three steps ahead.
• 47:24
  Daphne James Huff: But you know, but then you want, you want your dream, you know, whatever your dream is and you want to go listen to them.
• 47:29
  Daphne James Huff: And it's the gap between their life and your life is always really hard to kind of mentally align, I guess.
• 47:37
  Rachel: Yeah, I started when I, I, we talk so much about writing community to help you with writing, but it's this, this is exactly what writing community is to me.
• 47:46
  Rachel: It's like my co workers.
• 47:47
  Rachel: I mean, I, if I was just like by myself all day.
• 47:53
  Daphne James Huff: That's what I worry about with full time writer.
• 47:54
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I think about it all the time.
• 47:55
  Daphne James Huff: I'm like, oh, I wouldn't want to do like even now, like I'm fully remote and I, I kind of hate it, which I know, I feel like I'm not allowed to say, but like, I like, I like people, I like being in the office.
• 48:04
  Daphne James Huff: I'm a little more extroverted, I think, than a lot of writers and a lot of people on the data side of hr.
• 48:09
  Daphne James Huff: And so I always want to go in, but it's, it's not even in the state, so I can't, I can't even go in anywhere.
• 48:14
  Daphne James Huff: And it's been really, really hard.
• 48:15
  Daphne James Huff: And people think I'm crazy and I'm like some, some of you know, like, I need that community.
• 48:19
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I need the colleagues.
• 48:20
  Daphne James Huff: I need to feel like I'm involved in stuff.
• 48:22
  Daphne James Huff: And I get that from writing.
• 48:24
  Daphne James Huff: So I think if I didn't have writing, I was fully remote.
• 48:26
  Daphne James Huff: Like I would be definitely have changed after, you know, a couple months because like, there's no way I would have just mentally survived.
• 48:32
  Daphne James Huff: But you know, writing, having that extra community can bring you a lot when you know your day job isn't perfect and no job is perfect and vice versa, you know, if the writing has been really hard and it's kind of nice sometimes to go into an, you Know another job, a non writing job and be like, oh yeah, no, I'm good at other stuff.
• 48:49
  Daphne James Huff: And look, these people respect me for this and this and this, you know, So I think having both sides is kind of a nice balance to have where the writing doesn't have to be everything and your non writing job doesn't have to be everything.
• 48:59
  Daphne James Huff: And like for your husband too, Right.
• 49:01
  Daphne James Huff: Like now he has this other thing, right.
• 49:02
  Daphne James Huff: And it's, it's.
• 49:03
  Daphne James Huff: He's able to do.
• 49:05
  Daphne James Huff: Fill all those different parts of himself.
• 49:07
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:08
  Rachel: I mean, the balance is really hard to strike.
• 49:13
  Rachel: We, we've tried to find.
• 49:15
  Rachel: We've.
• 49:15
  Rachel: We talked with another creative and we mentioned this a couple times of using the word harmony of like, because it's, it's really hot.
• 49:22
  Rachel: Like, balance implies that if there's a give and a take and that you're missing out one way or you're giving something to others that you have to take away from somewhere else.
• 49:31
  Daphne James Huff: Where there's only two things.
• 49:32
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 49:32
  Daphne James Huff: Like it's a sign.
• 49:33
  Daphne James Huff: Like it's never two.
• 49:34
  Daphne James Huff: I think integration.
• 49:35
  Daphne James Huff: I like harmony, though.
• 49:36
  Daphne James Huff: I think I've been saying integration, like integrating your writing life into the rest of your life.
• 49:40
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, but it's probably more corporate.
• 49:42
  Daphne James Huff: I don't know.
• 49:43
  Rachel: We're integrating and we're integrate or anyways.
• 49:46
  Rachel: Yes, optimize.
• 49:48
  Daphne James Huff: Optimize. Integrate.
• 49:49
  Daphne James Huff: No, I don't even think optimize.
• 49:51
  Daphne James Huff: Optimize.
• 49:52
  Daphne James Huff: No, efficient's a bad word too.
• 49:53
  Daphne James Huff: No, I don't like efficient for writing.
• 49:54
  Daphne James Huff: Optimize.
• 49:55
  Daphne James Huff: No, integrate.
• 49:56
  Daphne James Huff: Because I think it's, it's impossible to separate them.
• 49:59
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I really do see it as all meshed, but I do like harmony.
• 50:01
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I do feel like that's, it's also such a peaceful word as a writer.
• 50:06
  Daphne James Huff: Harmony.
• 50:07
  Daphne James Huff: I already feel like more relaxed.
• 50:08
  Rachel: Yes, exactly.
• 50:10
  Rachel: Harmony.
• 50:11
  Rachel: Yeah. But I've talked to one on one clients before where I'm like, they're, they're.
• 50:17
  Rachel: Okay, so writing is.
• 50:18
  Rachel: Emily and I are not full time writers.
• 50:20
  Rachel: Right.
• 50:21
  Rachel: Like, we have our business.
• 50:22
  Rachel: So for me, I work way more than I think I should or that I want to.
• 50:27
  Rachel: Right.
• 50:28
  Rachel: When I say should, I don't mean based on capitalistic standards.
• 50:30
  Rachel: I mean like I, I overwork myself.
• 50:33
  Rachel: Right. Like I physically know that I am working too many hours, but that is part of like my, my author business is my second job or my first job.
• 50:44
  Rachel: And this, it doesn't.
• 50:45
  Rachel: There are two jobs, Right.
• 50:46
  Rachel: Like I have two jobs.
• 50:47
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, I have two jobs.
• 50:48
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 50:49
  Daphne James Huff: Well, three, because you're parents.
• 50:50
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, I know exactly three jobs.
• 50:52
  Rachel: And you're a spouse and then you're like, you want to be healthy.
• 50:56
  Rachel: And so then you have like.
• 50:57
  Rachel: Anyway, there's a lot of things.
• 50:59
  Daphne James Huff: No, no. Yeah. There's too much.
• 51:00
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:01
  Rachel: But there are times where, where I'll speak with an author or a write.
• 51:05
  Rachel: A writer, author.
• 51:06
  Rachel: They're interchangeable terms to me.
• 51:08
  Rachel: I'll speak with someone and be like, you don't want to work 12 hours a day, so perhaps this isn't a good goal for right now.
• 51:20
  Rachel: But that could change.
• 51:21
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:22
  Daphne James Huff: And maybe I think that's the thing too.
• 51:23
  Daphne James Huff: You see a lot for me with the, with the, with when I had the podcast, it was.
• 51:27
  Daphne James Huff: I did make sure to speak to a lot of women with younger children because it's like, is it actually possible?
• 51:32
  Daphne James Huff: And I think for maybe like one or two it was.
• 51:34
  Daphne James Huff: But then the spouse was doing, you know, a lot more and things like that.
• 51:37
  Daphne James Huff: And even mine, I only have one kid having one versus I think I had one, she had five kids.
• 51:41
  Daphne James Huff: So just hearing how it works and it is different, I acknowledge, like, it's very different for me.
• 51:45
  Daphne James Huff: But like, yeah, the 12 hours days, like, it just is impossible.
• 51:49
  Daphne James Huff: But you know when it will be, it's like, yeah, in another, I don't know, hopefully he's out of the house in another 10 years.
• 51:54
  Daphne James Huff: We'll see.
• 51:54
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, fingers crossed.
• 51:56
  Daphne James Huff: There's an only child.
• 51:57
  Daphne James Huff: Like, you know, he could live here until he's 40.
• 51:59
  Daphne James Huff: And we're like, oh, hey, sweetie.
• 52:00
  Daphne James Huff: Like that, like wedding crashers.
• 52:03
  Daphne James Huff: Like Will Ferrell, like.
• 52:04
  Rachel: Right, exactly.
• 52:05
  Daphne James Huff: Like it's gonna be terrible.
• 52:07
  Daphne James Huff: But yeah, so in theory, yes, in 10 years.
• 52:10
  Rachel: Right.
• 52:10
  Daphne James Huff: So it's like great.
• 52:11
  Daphne James Huff: Like what, what, what will we be able to do?
• 52:13
  Daphne James Huff: Even like our careers, like we're thinking, are we going back to Europe?
• 52:15
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it'll probably be at least another 10 years because like, you know, it's not going to be now when he's still in school and stuff.
• 52:20
  Daphne James Huff: So I think acknowledging too, like, if you want it to happen, does it have to happen now?
• 52:24
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 52:24
  Daphne James Huff: Because like it will take.
• 52:25
  Daphne James Huff: If it's going to take 12 hour days.
• 52:27
  Daphne James Huff: Great.
• 52:28
  Daphne James Huff: Can you do that now or maybe in 10 years you can do it, you know, like when the kids are a little older and it feels unfair because.
• 52:33
  Daphne James Huff: Especially for women, because I don't think men necessarily think the same way.
• 52:37
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 52:38
  Daphne James Huff: So there is that added layer of complexity.
• 52:41
  Daphne James Huff: But so that's again, so there's a grieving process.
• 52:44
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 52:44
  Daphne James Huff: You can be like, okay, yeah, it's what I wanted.
• 52:47
  Daphne James Huff: And maybe it's not going to be possible now, but it doesn't mean never, you know, So I think there's that part of it too.
• 52:52
  Daphne James Huff: As long as you don't say it's as long as you say not yet instead of never, then maybe that's helpful too.
• 52:58
  Rachel: Yeah, or for like a short time, you know, because the indie author thing is there's a lot of pressure to continue to produce all the time.
• 53:07
  Rachel: And I think that applies to any kind of author.
• 53:09
  Rachel: But I mean like, when you control your own deadlines and really the limitation is how much you want to work.
• 53:15
  Rachel: And obviously there's other factors, but like, I don't have to make a deal to sell a book.
• 53:20
  Rachel: I can just write a book and put it on the Internet.
• 53:23
  Rachel: And the more books I have out, the more money I make.
• 53:26
  Rachel: I mean, like, that's a pretty one to one like comparison where my backlist will continue to sell.
• 53:31
  Rachel: And if I want to make more money, I either market those books more or I write more books.
• 53:38
  Rachel: And again, there's a really big asterisk here.
• 53:40
  Rachel: There's a lot of external factors,
• 53:44
  Daphne James Huff: but
• 53:44
  Rachel: I mean, like, anyway, so the last two and a half years I feel like I really doubled down and like committed.
• 53:49
  Rachel: And now my fourth book just came out, the series is done, and I'm like, mm, I don't, ah, I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna take it slow, I'm gonna take it slow for a little bit and like, I, maybe next year maybe I'll, maybe I'll write a couple books and release them all at once.
• 54:04
  Rachel: I don't know, maybe I'll just take it slow and do nothing and play the Sims for the next three years.
• 54:09
  Rachel: I don't know.
• 54:09
  Rachel: But like, because, because I have this other job, I do feel like I'm able to make that choice, right?
• 54:16
  Rachel: Like I have more options, right?
• 54:18
  Rachel: Where with.
• 54:19
  Rachel: If you are a full time author, that's not always a choice you can make to like slow down or to move your deadlines or to decide I'm gonna take a break.
• 54:27
  Rachel: Because when you don't have another form of income, taking a break becomes a hit to your income.
• 54:33
  Rachel: And can you sustain that for a lot of people?
• 54:36
  Daphne James Huff: No.
• 54:37
  Rachel: So there's choices there where I'm happy that I have two jobs because I can take a break for writing and, and be okay, right?
• 54:47
  Rachel: And like I can come back to it when I'm ready, when I have more time and energy, whatever.
• 54:53
  Rachel: And the flip side is true.
• 54:55
  Rachel: Thankfully I have a job that's like, very flexible.
• 54:57
  Rachel: And Emily and I have built environment where if we want to double down on our books, the Golden Maze stuff can wait.
• 55:06
  Rachel: You know, like, we have flexibility in that.
• 55:09
  Rachel: But that was, like, a conscious creation on our part.
• 55:12
  Daphne James Huff: Wasn't accidental.
• 55:13
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Daphne James Huff: I think that's being more intentional.
• 55:16
  Daphne James Huff: These past couple years for me, too, I think, has really helped.
• 55:18
  Daphne James Huff: Whereas before, it was just kind of saying yes to everything as it came and doing that.
• 55:22
  Daphne James Huff: And then when I kind of had to take that break for both the burnout and then also just the world shutting down a bit in 2020, like, it really helped me, you know.
• 55:30
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Be more intentional and step back and say, what do I really want?
• 55:32
  Daphne James Huff: And so, yeah, I made some changes to the branding and the kinds of books I was writing and things like that.
• 55:37
  Daphne James Huff: And so now it's.
• 55:38
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, I'm on this path that I can still change my mind.
• 55:40
  Daphne James Huff: And I keep reminding myself that.
• 55:42
  Daphne James Huff: And that's kind of what I've been doing with these short stories and things like that.
• 55:44
  Daphne James Huff: And we'll see.
• 55:45
  Daphne James Huff: You know, if I do end up doing something more in the science fiction fantasy space, it'll be a different pen name for sure.
• 55:49
  Daphne James Huff: But even just that, my brain is like, oh, another pen name.
• 55:51
  Daphne James Huff: But it's fine, because I know the work that goes into it.
• 55:55
  Daphne James Huff: Do you know what I mean?
• 55:55
  Daphne James Huff: So that I can make that choice.
• 55:56
  Daphne James Huff: Like, I know what it is going into it.
• 55:58
  Daphne James Huff: So I can say, like, okay, am I committed?
• 55:58
  Daphne James Huff: Am I ready to make this extra work for myself?
• 56:02
  Daphne James Huff: And if I'm not, okay, that's fine.
• 56:04
  Daphne James Huff: I'm still getting paid every two weeks from my HR job, so I don't.
• 56:07
  Daphne James Huff: It doesn't need to do anything right
• 56:09
  Emily: away, but, yeah, having eggs in multiple baskets is never a bad idea.
• 56:14
  Daphne James Huff: Exactly.
• 56:14
  Daphne James Huff: Yes.
• 56:15
  Rachel: Yeah. There's.
• 56:17
  Rachel: Before I start wrapping up, there's, like, one thing that is I think about a lot.
• 56:21
  Rachel: Daphne, do you watch the Office at all?
• 56:21
  Rachel: I know Emily doesn't.
• 56:24
  Daphne James Huff: I have it.
• 56:25
  Daphne James Huff: It is very hard for me in HR to watch it.
• 56:28
  Rachel: I bet.
• 56:28
  Rachel: I'm sure.
• 56:29
  Daphne James Huff: Also, as like, very empathetic person, like, my husband's always like, these aren't real people.
• 56:33
  Daphne James Huff: And I was like.
• 56:34
  Daphne James Huff: But it is real situations that you think are made up.
• 56:38
  Emily: Yes.
• 56:38
  Daphne James Huff: But I assure you, someone in that writer's room has been through something very like.
• 56:42
  Daphne James Huff: That is what.
• 56:42
  Daphne James Huff: Like, writers, we.
• 56:43
  Daphne James Huff: This is what write what you know, means.
• 56:44
  Daphne James Huff: Like, we are taking it from life.
• 56:46
  Daphne James Huff: So. But, yes, I've seen it.
• 56:47
  Daphne James Huff: So I know.
• 56:48
  Daphne James Huff: Yes, the character is in the.
• 56:49
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, I know all that.
• 56:50
  Rachel: Okay. So I, that's like my husband and I's like comfort show.
• 56:55
  Rachel: And a lot, I feel like a lot of my lens viewing at the world is colored by the office.
• 57:01
  Rachel: But in the later seasons, so, you know, Jim and Pam are like the main couple that are together and they, you know, were star crossed lovers.
• 57:11
  Rachel: They got together, they got married, they have children, et cetera.
• 57:14
  Rachel: And in the, in the last season of the show, Jim takes another job elsewhere to follow his dreams and his passion.
• 57:22
  Rachel: And it actually ends up putting a lot of stress onto Pam.
• 57:25
  Rachel: And so their marriage goes through trials and tribulations and both of them are kind of reconciling with Jim saying and believing if she could just hold on, I know this could be really good for our family.
• 57:37
  Rachel: And on the other side, Pam is like, I am holding on and I'm doing a lot and I don't see an end in mind.
• 57:44
  Rachel: And there's this one conversation that Jim has with his HR rep, Toby, and Toby says to him like, well, what's, what's the end date?
• 57:52
  Rachel: And he, Jim is kind of taken aback.
• 57:55
  Rachel: He's like, well, what do you mean?
• 57:56
  Rachel: And he's like, well, it must be really hard for Pam to sign on to being unhappy if she has no idea how long it's going to last.
• 58:04
  Rachel: And Jim's kind of like, oh, I've, I've never thought about it like that before because to him he can see such a clear vision.
• 58:11
  Rachel: But to Pam, she's just being asked to pick up all this slack to support, you know, Jim's dreams.
• 58:17
  Rachel: But that, that really stuck with me for like a very long time of like, how long am I signing on or how long am I agreeing to something, whether it's, it's an amount of work or it's an unhappiness.
• 58:30
  Rachel: I'm not necessarily trying to equate it to like being in an unhappy marriage.
• 58:33
  Rachel: Right.
• 58:33
  Rachel: I'm not saying that, but I am saying, like, when I committed to writing these books, I was like, I know there's going to be four and when it's done, it's done. Right?
• 58:39
  Rachel: Like, I'm going to then reevaluate.
• 58:42
  Rachel: And I, I think for me, planning it that way, now that I'm on the other side was really helpful because I do think to pursue this balance asks a lot of you.
• 58:55
  Rachel: But if you don't give yourself milestones or you don't give yourself measurements to be like, I will reevaluate when I hit this point or I'll, I'll do this for A couple years and then see how I feel.
• 59:07
  Rachel: That's where you get into really damaging burnout.
• 59:10
  Rachel: I think that is just completely draining the reevaluation.
• 59:13
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, it's the re.
• 59:13
  Daphne James Huff: Evaluation we know about.
• 59:16
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, no, I was gonna say to add in that nature, I think, to that.
• 59:19
  Daphne James Huff: Cause we have smart goals and we know that, but I like smarter goals.
• 59:22
  Daphne James Huff: Because you have.
• 59:23
  Rachel: Right.
• 59:24
  Daphne James Huff: The evaluate and then.
• 59:25
  Daphne James Huff: Right.
• 59:26
  Daphne James Huff: Re. You know, reset as needed, you know, And I think we kind of forget about that part.
• 59:29
  Daphne James Huff: And we think, yeah, like you said, if you get to that point and you're like, great, I set my goal.
• 59:33
  Daphne James Huff: But then if you're not readjusting it as you go, then it's.
• 59:38
  Daphne James Huff: It can be really hard.
• 59:38
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:40
  Emily: That's the point at which you gotta figure out, like, is this still how you wanna feel?
• 59:43
  Rachel: Is this the way you want?
• 59:44
  Emily: Is it feeling the way you thought it would feel?
• 59:46
  Daphne James Huff: If it feels bad, then it' sign to reevaluate.
• 59:49
  Daphne James Huff: Yes, definitely.
• 59:49
  Rachel: Yeah, right, exactly.
• 59:51
  Rachel: Because, like, I.
• 59:52
  Rachel: I have.
• 59:52
  Rachel: I love writing.
• 59:54
  Rachel: I love our business.
• 59:55
  Rachel: I don't have any plans to change, like, this balance between the.
• 59:58
  Rachel: Or this.
• 59:59
  Rachel: The juggle between the two of them.
• 1:00:01
  Rachel: Right.
• 1:00:01
  Rachel: Like the harmony between the two of them.
• 1:00:04
  Daphne James Huff: Like that word.
• 1:00:06
  Rachel: But it was like, okay, that was a hard two years.
• 1:00:12
  Rachel: And you know what?
• 1:00:13
  Rachel: That required a lot of sacrifice on my parenting side, which I've talked about on the podcast before.
• 1:00:18
  Rachel: But, like, that took sacrifice from other areas.
• 1:00:21
  Rachel: Right.
• 1:00:21
  Rachel: To achieve.
• 1:00:22
  Rachel: To achieve what I wanted to achieve, I had to make decisions in other part of my life that now I'm, like, evaluating those decisions to be, like, I'm very happy with what I accomplished.
• 1:00:33
  Rachel: Do I want to make those same decisions for the next two years, the next five years, whatever it is.
• 1:00:39
  Rachel: And like, in some.
• 1:00:40
  Rachel: Some situations, my answer is no, I don't.
• 1:00:43
  Rachel: So I'm gonna have to change to change that.
• 1:00:47
  Rachel: But, like, I. I think you have to.
• 1:00:50
  Rachel: You talked at the beginning of this.
• 1:00:51
  Rachel: You have little arcs in your life.
• 1:00:53
  Rachel: You have to get through the arc before you can realize.
• 1:00:56
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 1:00:56
  Rachel: Before you.
• 1:00:57
  Daphne James Huff: I wish we could jump to the end, but we can't.
• 1:01:00
  Daphne James Huff: We have to go through the whole thing.
• 1:01:01
  Daphne James Huff: And the.
• 1:01:03
  Daphne James Huff: And it's once.
• 1:01:03
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah. Once you start seeing.
• 1:01:04
  Daphne James Huff: I feel like.
• 1:01:05
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, with, like, story structure from.
• 1:01:06
  Daphne James Huff: Again, I learned from one of your classes, which is amazing and very much big cheerleader for all your.
• 1:01:11
  Daphne James Huff: All your classes and stuff.
• 1:01:12
  Daphne James Huff: And they.
• 1:01:13
  Daphne James Huff: They really did change, like, how I look at story and.
• 1:01:15
  Daphne James Huff: And.
• 1:01:16
  Daphne James Huff: And my writing.
• 1:01:17
  Daphne James Huff: But, like, once you see it, you can't unsee It.
• 1:01:20
  Daphne James Huff: And so, like, I just started applying it to everything, and I'm like, everything has to be a story.
• 1:01:24
  Daphne James Huff: Like, not every.
• 1:01:26
  Daphne James Huff: You can just live your life.
• 1:01:27
  Daphne James Huff: You don't have to be apply.
• 1:01:28
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's really hard to turn off, but.
• 1:01:30
  Daphne James Huff: Yeah, but it's.
• 1:01:31
  Daphne James Huff: If that's helpful.
• 1:01:32
  Daphne James Huff: Yes.
• 1:01:32
  Daphne James Huff: For people to think like, oh, I'm.
• 1:01:33
  Rachel: I'm.
• 1:01:34
  Daphne James Huff: I'm at the dark moment.
• 1:01:35
  Emily: Don't worry.
• 1:01:36
  Daphne James Huff: Like, something.
• 1:01:36
  Daphne James Huff: You know, it's.
• 1:01:37
  Daphne James Huff: It might last longer than you.
• 1:01:38
  Daphne James Huff: Than a chapter.
• 1:01:40
  Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:41
  Daphne James Huff: But there will be something after, I promise.
• 1:01:45
  Emily: Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  Rachel: Oh, I love that moment where I'm like, oof, Just found a new internal obstacle.
• 1:01:51
  Rachel: Add another character flow to work on.
• 1:01:54
  Daphne James Huff: I can usually tell, like, whatever I'm working on, like, that's what I'm working on in the book.
• 1:01:58
  Daphne James Huff: And when I read a lot of a single author, like, I've read, like, everything from Tessa Bailey, even though you might not expect it of a sweet romance author.
• 1:02:03
  Daphne James Huff: Tessa Bailey is one of my favorites, and I've read so much of her stuff.
• 1:02:06
  Daphne James Huff: Like, now when I'm reading her books, I'm like, she was going through this thing.
• 1:02:09
  Daphne James Huff: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:10
  Daphne James Huff: Like, she was working through this thing.
• 1:02:11
  Daphne James Huff: I don't know her personally.
• 1:02:12
  Daphne James Huff: I have met her once.
• 1:02:13
  Daphne James Huff: Probably embarrassed myself.
• 1:02:14
  Daphne James Huff: But it was like, you do that with.
• 1:02:16
  Daphne James Huff: And so you do with your own writing.
• 1:02:17
  Daphne James Huff: And I think that's what you just start to recognize in your own writing is like, oh, I'm going through a thing now.
• 1:02:23
  Daphne James Huff: I've got to go write a book about it.
• 1:02:25
  Rachel: Yep, exactly.
• 1:02:26
  Emily: Totally.
• 1:02:27
  Emily: Totally.
• 1:02:28
  Rachel: No, my four books are definitely working through my time at that startup.
• 1:02:32
  Emily: Yes.
• 1:02:33
  Daphne James Huff: You might like the book then, like, yeah, because the person I went to go see, it was called Startup Hell is the book.
• 1:02:38
  Rachel: Love it.
• 1:02:39
  Daphne James Huff: So. And that.
• 1:02:40
  Daphne James Huff: And she told.
• 1:02:40
  Daphne James Huff: She told us too, at the.
• 1:02:41
  Daphne James Huff: At the.
• 1:02:43
  Daphne James Huff: You know, when I saw her speak at the conference and stuff, she's like, yep, that.
• 1:02:45
  Daphne James Huff: That scene really happened.
• 1:02:46
  Daphne James Huff: I was like, oh, no. That was the one I was really hoping was a.
• 1:02:49
  Daphne James Huff: Oh, you made up.
• 1:02:50
  Daphne James Huff: But it was like, oh, no.
• 1:02:52
  Rachel: I had a great experience, though.
• 1:02:53
  Rachel: I, like, loved, loved my company.
• 1:02:55
  Rachel: I. It was definitely the wild west of, oh, yeah, we can do whatever we want and then.
• 1:03:01
  Rachel: No, you cannot.
• 1:03:03
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 1:03:03
  Daphne James Huff: I don't like being.
• 1:03:04
  Daphne James Huff: I know.
• 1:03:04
  Daphne James Huff: That's why I don't.
• 1:03:05
  Daphne James Huff: I don't like being that.
• 1:03:06
  Daphne James Huff: That.
• 1:03:06
  Daphne James Huff: That law rule, you know, imposer.
• 1:03:09
  Daphne James Huff: But it is.
• 1:03:11
  Daphne James Huff: It is sometimes needed.
• 1:03:13
  Daphne James Huff: It's, you know, it's like applying a story structure to your first draft.
• 1:03:18
  Daphne James Huff: I'm sorry.
• 1:03:19
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 1:03:19
  Daphne James Huff: Like, it's gonna make more sense if you just have just little boundaries.
• 1:03:23
  Daphne James Huff: You don't.
• 1:03:23
  Daphne James Huff: Doesn't have to be plotted.
• 1:03:25
  Daphne James Huff: Just get it into shape.
• 1:03:27
  Rachel: You know, let's just like, be compliant with laws and we're in a good spot.
• 1:03:33
  Daphne James Huff: That's. That's.
• 1:03:34
  Daphne James Huff: Yes.
• 1:03:34
  Emily: Just please.
• 1:03:35
  Rachel: That was my job.
• 1:03:36
  Emily: Well, be compliant on the law.
• 1:03:41
  Daphne James Huff: Always.
• 1:03:42
  Emily: Oh, well, this was really wonderful, Daphne.
• 1:03:45
  Emily: Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us about this and lending us your hr.
• 1:03:50
  Daphne James Huff: Thank you for having me.
• 1:03:51
  Emily: Can you tell everyone where they can find find you on the interwebs?
• 1:03:56
  Daphne James Huff: I'm on Instagram mostly and not as much as I have been imposing some limits to myself, but Daphne James Huff on Instagram, on Facebook website DaphneJameshuff.
• 1:04:09
  Daphne James Huff: When is this coming out?
• 1:04:09
  Daphne James Huff: I don't know, but I should have a book coming out in November.
• 1:04:12
  Daphne James Huff: But I don't know.
• 1:04:12
  Daphne James Huff: I'm indie, so this will come out.
• 1:04:15
  Daphne James Huff: Oh, well, okay.
• 1:04:16
  Daphne James Huff: So it's probably a book coming out at some point this fall, but follow on Instagram and you'll, you know, you'll know when it's coming.
• 1:04:23
  Daphne James Huff: So.
• 1:04:24
  Emily: Awesome.
• 1:04:25
  Emily: Well, thank you so much.
• 1:04:27
  Daphne James Huff: Thank you.
• 1:04:28
  Rachel: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 1:04:34
  Emily: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 1:04:37
  Emily: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 1:04:42
  Rachel: Link in the show notes.
• 1:04:43
  Rachel: We'll see you there.
• 1:04:45
  Daphne James Huff: By.