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The Saints Can Help You · Holy Trinity Winchester Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: May I speak in the name of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Please be seated.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: When new people visit this church, they sometimes have a question.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a question that comes up.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Quite frequently actually from people who are not regular attenders at this kind
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: of church let's say.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the question that comes up time and time again is what's all this stuff about Mary?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Specifically it's always Mary.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone wants to know about Mary.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a question that comes along with it which is what about prayer to the saints?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: What about Mary?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: What about prayer to And it's a very interesting question.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a completely legitimate question to ask.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why all this stuff about Mary?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why all this stuff about the saints?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of the concern there is that when people come to
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: a service like this and they hear these kinds of things happening,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: they perhaps think that there is some kind of maybe worship of Mary and
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: the saints going on,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: or that we consider that Mary and the saints are a kind of barrier to And we have
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: to kind of go through those people in order to get to God, as it were.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: They present a kind of barrier to us.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, whilst I completely accept that these are legitimate concerns and it's
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: a legitimate question, I think it actually relies on somewhat of a misconception.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: You see, we do not worship Mary and the saints.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't even pray to Mary and And the concept of invocation,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: even though the word invocation is not something,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: it's not a word that we use often in everyday speech,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: the word invocation is actually quite a familiar concept to us, at least.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because it means that we are asking the saints to pray for us.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: We are asking Mary and the saints to pray for us.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a simple logic to the invocation of Mary and the saints.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same logic that we would apply to one another in the course
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: of our ordinary Christian lives together.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: The book of James,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: says that the prayer of a righteous person availeth much,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: or to use slightly more contemporary language,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Language, the prayer of a righteous person has great power in its working.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I might ask you to pray for me.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: You might ask me to pray for you.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we do these things?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we ask one another to pray for us?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's because we value the prayers of other people.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: We might even value even more the prayers of people who we consider to be especially holy.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just that we ask people to pray for us if we think it's likely
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: that they will remember to do so.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that logic,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: us praying for one another and asking us,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: asking other people to pray for us, that is what invocation is.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And this extends,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: in this view of things,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: not only to the living, but also to the saints who are in heaven and with God.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And of course in heaven we know that intercession happens in general.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because scripture tells us that Christ is interceding for us before the Father.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the New Testament even says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us also.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So intercession continues in heaven.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just something for this world now,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: but it's also something that happens in glory as well.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so we ask the saints to pray for us, confident that they will.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Confident that they are in God's presence and that those prayers are meaningful.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: But this also raises the question of communion, communion with the saints.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because similarly,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: when I ask you to pray for me,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: or if you ask me to pray for you, a sort of connection is made.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: A sort of communion is developed.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just that I'm confident that you'll go away and pray for me.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's that in some sense I've shared something of myself with you,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: or you've shared something of yourself with me.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so this creates a kind of communion, a kind of bond, as it were.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we invoke the saints in that sense,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: when we ask the saints to pray for us,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: it's not just a sort of disconnected request,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: as it were, but it creates a kind of communion.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: It creates a kind of bond between us and the saints.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Creates a bond between, if you like, earth and heaven, in that sense.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as modern people...
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very easy to think of the saints and the holy people who have lived
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: before us as simply historical characters.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: People who have lived in the past and they've done incredible things.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: They've maybe lived holy lives or they've done really impressive things.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: But essentially to think of them like that,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: to think of them in the same way as we would think
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: of just another historical character.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's done, that's happened.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can learn something from it.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It may inspire me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the idea of communion with the saints,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: the communion of the saints and All Saints Day is that it's actually something more
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: than that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the history which we read of and which we hear and which we understand,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: it encourages us, it inspires us.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the deeper thing is that we actually share communion with the saints here and now.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: There is an interpenetration between earth and heaven and we share together
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: in communion with the saints.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: They give us encouragement.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: They give us hope.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: In a very real sense, they give us friendship and support.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just that they were alive once and now they're in heaven.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's they're actually present with us now.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: That great scene in the book of Revelation,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: we read about the way that the saints are in heaven with the angels
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: and archangels worshipping God, a countless multitude.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, friends,
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: as we gather together today,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: we join in with their worship We join in with the worship of those who are
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: in heaven.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so God gives us the church on earth.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We encourage one another by having this community here on earth that we can see,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: that we can experience in this kind of material and tangible way.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also a further community,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: a further communion, which is with the saints who are in heaven.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so this encourages us,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: this gives us support,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the liturgy says in their holiness we find encouragement and hope.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: In our communion with them we share the unity of thy kingdom.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now another question that's often asked of me,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: this is another one that comes up quite frequently.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is what about the state of the church?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you stay with the church?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: What's all this stuff to do with the Church of England?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I won't go into any of the controversies of course but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: People ask me that question quite a lot.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact is is that if we look at the state of the earthly church there are
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: of course many things to be encouraged by.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm particularly encouraged when I consider my parish church and all of you and all
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: of the wonderful things that the Lord is doing in this place.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: there are controversies,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: there are failures,
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: there are basic incompetencies,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: there are scandals, there are all sorts of things to be concerned about.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: There is a constant narrative of decline that we live with in Western countries,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: that Christianity is declining,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: that fewer people are coming to church, that there's apathy.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: About Christianity and so on and so forth.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: You could just go on and on with all of these kind of things.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you could feel very discouraged.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lovely quotation in C.S.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Lewis' book, The Screwtape Letters, which is one of my favourite books.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't know it,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's about a senior devil writing a series of letters to a junior devil,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: giving him advice about how he might ruin history.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: One of our greatest allies at present is the church itself.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do not misunderstand me.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I do not mean the church as we see her spread out throughout all time and space
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: That, I confess, is a terrible spectacle which makes our boldest tempters uneasy, but
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Fortunately, it is quite invisible to these humans.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: All your patience,
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: that's the man he's trying to attempt,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: all your patience sees is the half-finished sham gothic erection on
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: the new building estate.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: When he goes inside,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: he sees the local grocer with rather an oily expression on his face,
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: bustling up to offer him one shiny little book Containing a liturgy which neither
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: of them understands,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: and one shabby little book containing corrupt texts of a number of religious lyrics,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: mostly very bad and in very small print.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: When he goes to his pew and looks round him,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: he sees just that selection of his neighbours whom he had hitherto avoided.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Provided that any of those neighbours sing out of tune or have boots that squeak
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: or double chins or odd clothes,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: the patient will quite easily believe
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: that their religion must somehow be ridiculous.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: none of this applies remotely to this church,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: but there is a great deal of truth in it.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: We can be so preoccupied with what our eyes see,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: with what our senses sense,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: that we so often forget to remember that the church is not just us here and now,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: but as Lewis says,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: the church is spread out through all time and space and rooted in eternity,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: terrible as an army with banners.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I say that this is a This is an antidote to institutional despair.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: It would be so easy to despair at the state of the church.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if the earthly church were all that we saw, then it would be very easy to be depressed.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: But fortunately, the church is so much more than that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And feasts like All Saints Day remind us of this.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: But we need reminding more than that,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: more than once a year,
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: which is why we invoke the saints,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: which is why we have images,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: statues and so on and so forth,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: because they help us to remember that we are not alone.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So all saints is an antidote to institutional despair,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: but in that sense it's also an antidote to personal despair.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to despair of ourselves, isn't it?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: As well as to despair of the institution.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's wrong with me?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't I making any progress in faith?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't I growing in holiness?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why sometimes do I find it so hard to pray?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I have such apathy in my heart towards the things of God?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I struggle with all these sins?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you can just go on and on and on like this.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Friends, that's the normal human experience.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: As we seek to follow Christ in this life.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Life is not easy.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Life is hard.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's full of challenges.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's full of obstacles.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: It makes us weary sometimes and it is difficult.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: That is the reality.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: So how does the idea of communion with the saints help us?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: One of the ways it helps us is we look to the saints and we recognise
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: that those people were once as we are and they were once in our situation too.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: They were here on the earth and They had all the same kind of difficulties
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: and challenges that we do, possibly even more.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Consider,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: the Blessed Virgin Mary,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: who was probably just a teenage girl when the angel Gabriel appeared to her.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, of course, through God's grace that she was called to respond.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was through God's grace that she bore Christ and that she was obedient to the calling of God.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: But she did it.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: She was a human being.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: She did it by God's grace.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And all of the saints are like that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: All of the saints were called by God.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there were, of course, setbacks in their lives and difficulties in their lives as well.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: But they did it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they are there,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: joining with that countless multitude of worshippers,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: which we hear about in Revelation 7.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: If they were able to do it, friends, by God's grace, so can we.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Life seems difficult.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It seems hard, very frequently it is.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: How will we ever get there?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: All Saints shows us that we can, by God's grace.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And one day, we will.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as we approach Holy Communion very shortly, friends, let us do this joyfully.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because after all, this is a feast day.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Raising our vision beyond the everyday troubles and difficulties and strains that we have.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And let us remember that we approach this holy table by God's grace and in communion
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: with all the saints, with all the angels and the archangels of heaven.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: They are present with us now as we are present with them.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: One day we will be fully present with them, worshipping around God's throne.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now we see in a glass darkly, then face to face.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now we know in part, then We will know fully, even as we are fully known.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So rejoice, friends.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Rejoice in our communion with one another and rejoice in our communion with the saints.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.