Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Business, Nothing Personal: The Detective Who Made Crooks Talk | David Plumpton

Transcript

Business, Nothing Personal: The Detective Who Made Crooks Talk | David Plumpton · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apploche Production.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann.
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: I'm your host, Adam Shand over forty years of doing
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: this job, I've developed some strong opinions about the kind
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: of police I like dealing with and.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: That I admire, and I call them the walkers and
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the talkers.
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: Tasmania Police today commended officers for their work in a
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: series of arrests. Investigators say the.
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: Breakthrough came through months of community engagement.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: These are the cops you get out in the community
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: who see what's going on, the ones who notice that
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: tiny detail that tells them nefarious activities are underway. They're
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: the ones who talk to the people on the street,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: who develop contacts amongst the great and the good and
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: the low, mean and downright dangerous.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: A government review into detective training has recommended greater emphasis
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: on forensic analysis and technology, with critics warning the shift
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: risks losing investigators who know how to read a room.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: The walk and talk as a copper has sort of
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: fall out of fashion these days, even though the community
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: loves it. You'll probably go further by staying in the
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: office and reacting to crime rather than attacking it proactively.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: In fact, running informance these days can be a negative
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: in a policing career.
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: A Victorian detective is under internal affairs investigation tonight, accused.
• 1:35
  Speaker 5: Of maintaining improper contact with a known underworld figure.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: You're liable to be accused of being too close or
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: showing some sort of favor.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: My guest today was a walker and a talker.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: David Plumpton retired in twenty fifteen from Tasmania Police at
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: the rank of Detective inspector.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: But I think he.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Deserved to go much higher the commander or even assistant
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: commissioner had he spent more time in the office playing
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: the politics.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: Detective Inspector David Plasmon of Tasmanian Police has been awarded
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: the National Police Service Medal, recognized as one of the
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: most effective investigators the state has ever produced.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Well he lost in rank and salary, Pumpton made up
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: for in the respective game from the people he served
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: and even some of the crooks whom he sold the
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: idea of jail to. That's my pleasure to welcome David
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: to the Real Crime studio.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Gill I Plumote, Thank you very much, Adam.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: That's quite an introduction, isn't it. My word. Yeah. I
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I feel a bit to my ego
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: that has been stroped. Thank you.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the high point. It's all down from here.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, in your own career, I think we've spoken about
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: this before, that you preferred to be out and about
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: rather than playing the politics, and you did some great things,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: and you retired with great distinctive. But I think the
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: point is right that walking and talking has sort of
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: fallen out fashion.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Look, I don't want to appear a dinosaur, and
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be telling others how to do
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a job I left some time ago. However, that capacity
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to engage with the community, I want to say, the community,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: not just the citizens who are going about their daily work,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: but to engage with that one percent of people who
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: are going to break the law, That skill seems to
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: be not necessarily lacking, but frowned upon. The capacity for
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: detectives to engage with the people that they have to interview,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: they have to charge, or they're actually investigating, just seems
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: very limited these days and is frowned upon because of
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: not because of but corruption. Seems to be the go
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: to comment for any police officer who is seen in
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: contact with known Alarican's known criminal, known ne'er do well,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: so to speak. So that's a pity. That's a real
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: pity because so, okay, I'm trying to sell my own
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: opinion here. But if you have a look at any
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: country and you have a look at their most significant crimes,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: the crimes that involve the murder of others, ninety nine
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: percent of them have been solved or resolved through talking.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: That is coppers talking to people and having informants. Your
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: state alone, Victoria had some of the best human source managers,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: informant controllers that have been involved in policing, as was
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: evidence through the charges against those people involved, whether it
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: be Carl Williams or whoever came about and in the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: end Williams Williams role and was telling certain police things.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So the value is there, the evidence is there. How
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: too many senior officers want it done, but don't want
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it done. They don't want to touch it themselves, if
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: that makes sense.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: It's like what Brian Francis Murphy, my old mentor here
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: in Victoria the Skull used to say, informers are like manure.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants to handle it, but it gets you good results.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And absolutely right, absolutely right, yeah, brilliant, brilliant And it
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: was Vic Poler. Remember doing a course in Victoria Police
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: when I was with the National Crime Authority, and they
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: used to write up on the wall in the detective
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: training course a statement. Each day there'd be a different
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: statement there. The one that stuck with me was this
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: bit about an ounce of information is worth a ton
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: of investigation, just those someone putting you on the right track,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: someone explaining confidentially whatever, that this is what actually happened,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: as opposed to spending hours interpreting listening devices, telephone interceps,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: forensic evidence. Now that I'm not belittle in any of that,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: massive changes, unbelievable benefit from those things, but at the
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: end of the day, it is that one percent. It
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: is that information, that ounce of information that will guide
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: and direct.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: And I think that the modern police officer, even those
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: in uniform, especially those in uniform, are so busy.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: They're going from job to job to job.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: Often it's domestic violence that's very stressful and so forth.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: And ironically here in Victoria in particular, the protective services
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: officers are on the trams and trains, they're the ones.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Doing more talking to the general public.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: They often get to right it as sort of the
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: pretend coppers, but they're actually having those conversations and that's fascinating.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: We did an episode on that specifically, But I think
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: it does come down to one's personal makeup, how comfortable
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: you are with talking to people you don't though, and
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: even looking in the face of an angry man and
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: had any conversation.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, you.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: Joined the force as a police cadet back in nineteen
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: seventy five, correct, yep, what was your background? What gave
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: you that the legend communication.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: I think I went through. I was always I'm a
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: real lucky person, not with I've said this before, lucky,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: not necessarily with money gambling, but things would generally fall
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: my way. For example, when I was I'd read hair,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I'd read it, so you would be not victimized, that's
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: not the right word, but you'd be the focus of
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: attention or things will be said. So you had to
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: find a way to engage or deflect or befrey to confrontation.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: So I think that stood me in goodstead. And you
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: felt that you could talk to people, and I enjoy.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I enjoy everybody's got a story and I love listening
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: to this stories, I really do. I remember as a paperboy,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: we used to do the Saturday night paper around the
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: pubs in Alguston and you'd go in there and yourself
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: and those old blokes fifty cents was a big tip.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: They give you the tip, but they'd tell you a story,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: or they tell yourself. In the end. I'd end up
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: with ebbs of papers because I'd be standing there talking
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: to these blokes in the pub, and because they had
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: a willing audience. Some you know, fourteen year old kid
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: who's will understand there listen to them as they're having
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: their six ounce bers. They'd keep on telling me things.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: And I found if you listen, if you listen, you'll
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: pick up so many things. And then you'd see those
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: people again and they'd remember it and they'd say today
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: and here you were. And I used to feel really
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: good being a fourteen fifteen year old boy knocking around
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Olgiston and the older blokes see, whether it be at
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: the football or somewhere, and they say get a mate,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: or there you going or whatever, and your mates will
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: look around and say and you know him. And it's
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: only because for a short period of time I visited
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: his world at his place and let him tell me
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: his story. And I loved it. And maybe they could
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: pick up that I loved it, and no doubt they
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: would have filled me full of a load of crap
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: on occasions and built things up, but I loved it.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: So from that moment in time, I began to enjoy.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: When you're a copper, we talk about protective services. When
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: you are in uniform, you are talking to people and
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you learn very quickly that they're going to come again.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: In a place like Tasmania, those people you're dealing with
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: are going to come again. You're going to interview them again.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: You're going to see them again, and when they're young
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: it might be more serious. So if you treat them
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: with respect, never humiliate, never impose on their dignity, they
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: will when they come again, at least speak to you.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: At least talk to you. Once they are talking, there
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: is an opportunity for you to get from them things
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: they may not want to tell anybody else, or they
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: didn't think they'd tell anybody. And if you can do
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: that now and again, yeah, there is success coming your way.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: That is a superpower, no doubt about that.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: You overcame the red hair thing by losing most of
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: it and the rest of it's great.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: So it's like me, yeah, very true, very true.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: You could well have become a journalist with those sort
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: of credentials, being a paper boy talking to people. But
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: you chose the police force. Did you have any coppers
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: in the family or what was the part?
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: No? No, no, no made up the raid joined Tasmania Police.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: We were finishing school. It was one mate joined the
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: army and another blake joined Tasmania Police. Came down told
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: me I put in an application to join Tasmania Police
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: and it went a bit pair shape because I got accepted,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I understand. But then I got booked for underage betting
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: at a year race. We snuck into a race course.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: I got caught underage betting at sixteen. But when they
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: came to tell them that, yeah, you're successful and you'd
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: start on twelve February seventy five, they never mentioned anything
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: about engagement with a license of police. And it wasn't
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: until April that the summons came. By then I'd already started.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe they'd invested something in me so they kept me.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: So how I got influenced greatly for being a detective.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Was I am with this mate. We come down to Hobart, Jordan,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Tasmania Police and was sitting in police headquarters and next
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: minute two detectives walk into the building. They've got their
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: coats over their shoulder, were sitting on this bench outside
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: this office and they just look at us and go, boys, ah,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: look at me. Mate said, that's what we want to be.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: He didn't, and he never did. But from that moment
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: in time, I used to get ridiculed as a trainee
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and everything that I wanted to be a detective. And
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: then the best advice was don't rush into this. Just
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: steadily build up skills. Speak to people and watch how
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: they go about their business, learn from them and you
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: might be able to do it. And luckily for me,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I did and I worked with some great people. She
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: wish I was lucky enough to work with some of
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I probably say they were great people and others may
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: say they weren't that great. But their skill was in
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: talking to people. They would get people to tell them things.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: One went on to be Commissioner of police, others stayed
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: at sergeant level. So they had a variety of careers.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: But if you judge their success by their capacity to
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: investigate and make the public safe, putting crooks away. They
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: were very, very successful.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: And who were those I think you mentioned Richard McCready
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Is that you're talking about who became the.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Commissioner went on to be commissioner. A lot of people
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: may not realize this, but Richard mccrudy was one of
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the state's best detectives. He had a skill of getting
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: people who wouldn't open their mouths to others to talk
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to him. Him, Bevin Howe, Fred Harris, Colin Little. These
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: names just roll off as detectives of I'm not saying
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I just want to make it perfectly clear. Mccrudy had
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: a skill not only to speak to people, but to
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: record it, to ensure it was put together in an
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: outstanding file. And he chose to pursue promotion and went
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: on to be a very successful commissioner. Now, others stayed
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: at the rank of sergeant or senior constable because they
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: enjoyed or they didn't enjoy maybe the study or maybe
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the office work. Most of them were out and about
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: type of people that is. I'm not denegrating people who
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: stay in the office and everything like that, but mccrudi
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: had come out and said you if you're sitting at
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: your desk, that is the steering will in front of
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: your mate. So the intention would be get out, drive
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: the cargo somewhere, actually speak to somebody, you know, and
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: you would continue to McCready orb and now I would
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: always be saying things along the lines of they're not
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: knocking on the door to come in and speak to you.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I think you've got to actually walk out that door
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: and speak to them. And so they did have you
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: out and about speaking to people doing things, and you
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: notice with them this thing I go on about is this,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: never ever humiliate anybody. What I found was when you
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: charge someone and they go to court and there's a
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: court case, they plead not guilty Supreme Court. I never
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: and I learned this, never sat in when the jury
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: brought back a verdict. I never went descendancing. Our job
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: was done. That was it. But as it is highlighted
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to me, for the person you've charged, you've won. That
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: is the case has been won by the crowd, and
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: that's it. No need to sit there and feed on
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: their dignity, no need to sit there. And now they
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: might not take as humiliation. But I never felt the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: need to in there and watch them sentence like it
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: was business. And so as a result of that, I
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: know many criminals would look from the dock and see
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: who was there for the sentence, and that is what
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: they remembered. They remembered those people there and if they
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: saw the coppers, it was coppers they felt feeding on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: their dignity. Now, I know a lot of people have
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: a different view on that, and a lot will go
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: along to say that's the end. But I never viewed
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: it as been the end. They go to jail, They've
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: still got family, they've still got other people that are
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: committing crime, and at some stage I might want them
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to say to somebody else, I listen, he's not a
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: bad bloke, or you can trust him, or yep, if
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: he tells you his words, his bond, he means it.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Those type of things.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: So they were the little.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Things that I did differently, and I learned from people
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and stood me in good stead. Well.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I think that's a good point in relation to policing
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: in Tasmania in particular, small place, small cod crooks, more
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: color of police, and you do see each other time
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: and time again. Yep, Obviously early on you had cases
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: where those things were made evident to you. Do you remember
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: anything that sort of sticks out in those early years
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: as a detective.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Just I meant some people wouldn't speak to police, and
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: that is wouldn't talk at all. Just on that, I
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: can give you an example. This isn't a really good
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: example I think of now putting this in perspective, I
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: worked with what was then called the National Crime Authority
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: in Victoria in the nineteen nineties and I was lucky
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: enough to have a partner by the name of King Collins.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Here's a detective senior council from Victoria Police, very well respected,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: excellent detective had worked with a major crime squad on
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: significant matters in Victoria, but it had also been involved
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: in you might recall the Donald McKay murder in New
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: South Wales. Now McKay was murdered a local politician and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: significant resources put to it by New South Wales, but
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: there was a component from Victoria, without making it too complex,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: that involved the offender, James Blaizey and others who'd subblied
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: weapons tits one but partner I worked with Collins and
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: another detective inspector from Peter o'haleran. He was in charge
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of the homicide squad for a period of time Pronger
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Hoilera and they called it but.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: DoD call him that. He doesn't quite answer to that bit.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, he doesn't. I remember Ken and I
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: went and dug the foundations for his house when he
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: was building at Brighton. And whilst we're there digging it,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Colins got bitten by Helen's dog at the go to
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: the vet and I stayed there in the stinking son
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: digging all these trenches. But anyway, Blaisly was convicted of
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: a number of murders in Victoria. But Collins had visited
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Ireland as well over Trimboli, say Mackay, Trimbolei. All of
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: this was married together. We're at the office of the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: National Crime Authority in Melbourne. Big Pole had a requirement
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: for Colin's to visit Blaizy at Penrish Prison. So he
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: said to me, come here, come here. They see I
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: think he had a nickname, machine gun Jimmy Blaizey. So
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: we go out to Penrish Prison. Had some papers to serve,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: but had to go through a number of things. So anyway,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and obviously you'd heard of this person because he had
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: a reputation, a reputation going back to the painters and doctors.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: So we go out. They bring in prison officers, corective services,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: bringing Blaisley, nondescript man, just sat there, nodded. That was it.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Colin spoke, Blaisley never opened his mouth, wasn't rude, it
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: wasn't objectionable, didn't open his mouth. Off he went, and
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: we've been there period of time, went through the questions,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: gave him the paper. That was it, Colin said to
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: me afterwards, the only two words he's ever heard Blaisly's
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: state are not guilty in court. So think about how
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: what level of commitment you have to have not to
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: open your mouth to police, not to anybody. And so
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: along the way, in comparison to when I was a
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: junior copper, you'd meet people who would avoid saying things
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: but couldn't help it. Would have to say something, would
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: have to engage in something. Now it maybe derogatory or
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: maybe confrontational, but they'd have to say something. Blazly didn't
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: have to do. On wouldn't say a thing. Now, the
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: skill was getting those people who wouldn't say anything or
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: be confrontational, to lessen the chaos, reduced the chaos from
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the conversation. They were the things I remember when you
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: were starting off, and the skills some people had in
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: doing that. And I'm not saying Brooks and people can
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: pick up the political speak, the diplomatic speak, and the insincerity.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So you have to be sensing when you're speaking to perpetrators, offenders, criminals, crooks,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. Sincerity matters, your tone
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: of voice matters, It all matters, because they pick up
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: very quickly and if they accept you as being sincere,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: but then it proves that you are not, or you've
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: misled them, then you never ever will have anything beneficial
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: positive from your engagement with that person, or they're founidly
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: into the future.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Sincerity is a very interesting way of putting it, because
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: you had this other line which I used in the
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: intro about selling the crook on the idea of jail
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: now selling it wasn't necessarily given them false promises about
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: what you could do for them or other blandishments. What
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: did that actually mean in practice? When you're in the interview, relatively, when.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: A detective is speaking to somebody in relation to a crime,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: and they know that the offender, you know, their offender.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: All I am doing by talking to you is selling
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: you jail. Nothing else can come out of it. Nothing. Sorry,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: you may not get jailed, but you know, all I'm
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: doing is selling you punishment by getting you to talk.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I've got to make sure that never dawns on you.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I've got to ensure that it doesn't dawn on you
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: halfway through. What on earth am I doing saying this?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Because he's just sold me six months, six years whatever.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: You don't actually sell them jail, but that is wrap
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: it up into something, and that's it. You are effectively
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: selling someone jail, and you've got to avoid them waking
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: up to that fact that you are doing that. They
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: have to realize that this is the only way out,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: this is the only path or they want to be
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: reasonable now. And I'm not saying they're telling you the truth.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: How many times like you is there's a kernel in
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: truth in what's being told. But everybody looks after themselves
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: and hopefully they'll blame somebody else, and the person they're
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: blaming is somebody who was involved. Human nature means that
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that's that's what they'll do. Yeah, So you rely on
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: human nature and you just become the conduit for that
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: sale to take place.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: So you're getting two or three for the price of one.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: And I guess also the community's interest is that an
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: early guilty plea will save the court a lot of
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: time and all this type of thing. And I guess
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: you've got to say to the perpetrator it's in your
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: best interest.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: As you say, you.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Don't want to be too explicit about it, but there
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: needs to be a sort of psychological I mean, Brian
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Murphy used to call it slychology. Yep, he'd be saying,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: there would crook, Listen, you did this thing. You've got
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: four kids, you know, you've got money troubles. The wife's
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: probably going to play it with someone. You know, while
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: you do a longer sentence, it's in your interest to
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: work with me. Did you have those moments as well
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: where you where you understood the psychology of the person
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: sitting in front of their pressure points?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: You do, you do, and you can see what path
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: they will take or what drives them. But in all honesty,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the first thing is breaking down that level of trust,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: is getting the other person to accept that you are
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: telling the truth and The biggest benefit I had was
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: a man who I always had was it was business,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: nothing personal. Understand one thing. What we are engaged in
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: now is business. There's nothing personal about it. I'm not
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: having to go at you, Adam shared. What I will
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: do is promise you this, though I will never step
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: outside the boundaries of the law. I will use those
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: boundaries to my best benefit to have you charged with
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: whatever crime you've committed. But you have got no boundaries.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: You do whatever you like. However, I will never ever
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: personalize it. I will never ever make it about you
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: and your family. It will always be business. So I'd
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: like to think, well, I do know some significant criminals
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: accepted that, accepted that, Hey, I wasn't personal. I'm not
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: having to go at you personally. I'm not you to say, yeah, yeah,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: you bloody, useless whatever, or you're a violent thug or whatever.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: You can be whatever you like. My business is to
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: catch you. Now, if I am clever enough, if I
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: am smart enough, I will catch you. If you are
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: cleverer than me, and you don't have to rely or
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: you're not confined by the law, you will get away
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: with it. So that's the business, other than personal and
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: if we understood that, and so many did, and so
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: we've got a bit of a joke. Or some would say,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: don't speak to him. There was a thing that risd
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: in jail. Don't speak to it, don't open your mouth,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: don't talk to Plumpton. So others I go to the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: jail to speak, and the advice will be don't because
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I'd always want to get my man through across about
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: his business. And so you've broken down things and what
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: you have done though, you've personalized it, even like it's
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: not personal. But I've personalized it. I've let you know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And I used to highlight my mistakes because a lot
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: of crooks like to know your mistakes. They don't want
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: to know I like, you sit there, I've charged, so
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I say I did this, I've done that. No, no, no,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: they like to know your mistakes. I could be there
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: for two days telling them my mistakes. They'd end up
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: being worn out listening. But so on occasions when it
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: came to I'd be able to say things along the
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: lines of ah, yes, yeah, that's a really good point.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I missed. I mucked that up. If I'd have known that,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I'd have been able to charge him with that oh yes,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and so we get into this conversation and we yeah,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: it's a deformalized in the conversation is a good thing
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I always found, and so engaging in a conversation with
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: someone finding out what their interests are, knowing that before
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: around there's all these things and you can build up
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: you can everybody thinks they're a good interviewer. No, no,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: no to you is I've sat with solicitors. After a
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: retired from the police. I did some work on a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Vulnerable Person's Department of Justice and we'd interview certain people
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: who have been denied a work on a vulnerable Person's card.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And so you work with barristers to interview some of
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: these people, Ah do are do? Barristers will be the
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: quickest to go for the jugular and miss like I've
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: seen crooks play them on the break. They think they're
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: good cross examiners, but that's in a court where someone's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: judging and directing, like you've got to judge and all
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: these type of things. But when you're speaking to somebody,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: this is one of the great things I think about
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: coppers going off and lawyers, scientists when they're looking at
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: something speaking to people going to Witnesses are not interested
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: in the superfluous crap. Scientists, solicitors aren't interested in I
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: was standing on that corner. I just left that because
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I've been at home with Mammad. But we don't want
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: to know that. We don't want you being a name
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: my mum had always coppers do. We want to know
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: all of that. So we put it all together and
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: it gives a big picture so that if things haven't
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: worked out, you can go through some of that superfluous
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: crap that I was that I am talking to mum
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: who couldn't afford the shoes that so and so had
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: brought round, and everything like that, and so and so
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I being at the house. Scientists when they're doing research,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: they don't want to know the superfluous cut it off. Solicitors,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: barristers when they don't want to know. They don't want
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: you to go off on a tangent. I can go
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: off on tangents, and I would love someone to take
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: me off on a tangent because in that there might
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: be a laugh with this something that later on it'll
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: just be between you and them. I've seen some of
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the most violent men in pubs afterwards, walking through and
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: you'll not at them, and they'll be this smile on
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: their face where they recall when they told you the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: story about this happening at their house and all of
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that type of thing. Nothing to do with the crime,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: nothing whatsoever, But they recall that you had this moment
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: where you discuss something that was superfluous, and that superfluous
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: bits and pieces can marry up into something later on.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: But that's what coppers do. By talking to people, you
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: gather this superfluous crap.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's called rapport.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Now we'll go to a case where you didn't have success,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: but I think the elements of the investigation bore.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: All this out.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: Nineteen sixty nine, Lacille Butterworth is murdered almost certainly, let's
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: say certainly by Jeffrey Charles Hunt. He confesses back in
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: the day it's not taken seriously. He then go on
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: to murder another woman. He does time for that. You
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: begin to investigate. You actually extended your career. You were
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: the CIB boss at glen Orkie. You decided to take
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: on Butterworth, and you got on board carry Millhouse excellent
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: detective as well, and you brought Hunt in for an
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: interview having a lot of work already, and Hunt was
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: under no obligation to speak, but he gave a several
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: hours interview which didn't result in his charging your conviction, unfortunately.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: But the way that the pair of you drew him out,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: he respected your authority. You knew his background, you knew
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: all these things, and the combination of yourself carry was
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: a bit harder at the ball as he was as
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: a footballer.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: But between you you managed to draw him out.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: So he gave up a whole bunch of information that
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: basically exploded his alibis, exploded his denials.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Remember that interview.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: What you're going to remember about Hunt. He had been
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: in jail for two years, and when we've spoken to him,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: it was obvious that he not enjoyed, but respected the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: strict discipline that operated within Risdom prison when he first
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: went there, and bemoaned how it had diminished over time,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: and how you had your head down, walk the line
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: and all this type of thing. And yes, sir, nosir,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: so me being an inspector of police, he obviously had that,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: but we confused him by me being quite approachable and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: him then being able to relate to a person of
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: authority and inspector, senior prison officer. We were possessions of
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: authority to this man who'd done twenty years in a
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: confined environment. Bear in his mind, he was also in albino,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: so he worse than me. Havn't read. He had gone
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: through school being victimized and knew how to shut off.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: He could just shut down and say nothing. So the
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: skill carry mill house things about. Could talk to Jeffery
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Charles Hunt about the area about growing up prior to
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: him going to jail. And Hunt also had this thing.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He knew what he'd done in murdering a young lady
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: by the name of Susan Knight. I don't know whether
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: he really felt remorse or whatever, but the shame. So
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: we had to be careful about moving around that issue
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: without again humiliating him or diminishing him, because bear in mind,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: he's an interesting thing. Just moving off him for a minute.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: In the course of interviewing Hunt or looking at Hunt,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I visited what was then Hayes Prison Farm before it
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: shut down, and then I went to the jail and
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: spoke to a murderer by the name of James Ryan O'Neil.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: O'Neil is a well known pedophile murderer believed to have
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: was accused of the Bamont matters in South Australia, but
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: he's believed to have murdered someone in West Australia. But
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: he is currently serving life imprisonment in Tasmania for the
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: murder of two young boys in the nineteen seventies. So
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: you go meet James Ryan O'Dell and there'd been a
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: documentary on him in relation to his possible involvement with
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the Beaumont missing children. But I need an information because
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: him and Hunt have been together at and I wanted
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: him to tell me about Hunt. I remember going in
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: there and you build a report. So here we are
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: sitting down and walks James Ryan o'nel as a big, solid,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: ruddy faced man, and we shake hands and he sits down.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Then you think, after hold on, those hands have been
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: around the neck and murdered kids, and you know, people
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: talk about our pedophiles. I'd never talk r pedophile. I'd
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: never do this, I'd never do that. But your role
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is to go in and spend time initiate ing conversations
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: and being in an excellent relationship and that person trusting
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: you so that he could tell us things, and he did,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: so I was able to come out with that and
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: carry and I had that information and we knew their
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: relationships and could speak to Hunt about that as well.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: So the superfluous things were of value to us in
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that Hunt would speak at length about O'Neill, the Hayes
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: prison farm and issues like that, and we were able
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: to do that and through the process he vehemently denies
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: anything to do with the disappearance of Lucil Butterworth, but
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: that interview was able to highlight significant failures in his alibi,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: raise other matters that we could investigate that we could
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: put before the coroner, and he found. Obviously, though it
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: cornial investigation, Hunt was responsible, with the DPP were unable
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: to do the same.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a sore point, I'm sure for you, unfinished business.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: But as you say, it wasn't your job.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: To be Obviously, you formed a relationship with Jimmy Butterworth,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and say did I close friendship? And Jimmy's passed away now,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: but the parents of Luciale did. And this is the
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: sadness around a missing person. They've left this earth without
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: knowing what happened to Lucille, without being able to put
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: her to rest and without seeing any punishment for the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: person involved. Obviously, Jimmy's daughter Cassie I keep in contact
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: with and Sue his wife, but Jimmy was well. Jimmy
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and John were the driving forces.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: And the brothers.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this like this thing they recall when you look
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: at this, this iconic case, and will open it up
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: again and we'll have a look. And then you get in.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: When you're reading something, it comes through here. But it's
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: not until you actually sit down and speak to a survivor,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: a victim, or a family member, does the gravity of
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: what you're doing arise. Like it's all well and good
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: to say, our rushing into this, we're going to do that,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: we're going to do this and everything on that. But
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: there is a human element to every crime, and that
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: is the survivor, the victim, the impact. That's the gravity
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of what we do. So forget about making everybody else happy.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: All you've got to do is ensure that that survivor
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: has their dignity. Because with missing persons, don't you notice
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: you go to them and you say we're opening this again,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, all their hopes are placed in
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: you and that's the disappointment about Lucille.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think it was an exemplary investigation, a massive,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: circumstantial pile of evidence, which I think. I mean, you
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: look at the for instance, the Lynn Dawson prosecution up
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: in New South Wales Chris Dawson, the teacher's pet story,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: and I think he was convicted on less than what
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: you had on Jeffrey Charles Hunt. But there's a certain
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: amount of conservatism in the DPP in Tasmania, and this
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: had come after the Soni or Phraser prosecution for the
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: murder of Bob Chappel, which again was I think they
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: had less evidence than you had on Jeffrey Charles Hunt.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: So I think the DPP was I don't know, avoidant
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: in a sense. Maybe he was waiting for more evidence
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: to come up, but Jesus, how much Moavens would you need?
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: There were several prisoners who'd been with Hunt who reported
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: in very similar terms his confessions.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Again, so I don't know what more you could have done.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: And you raised that point about the expectations and the
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: management of people.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: This went on even after you left the force.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: I'll never forget you gave me a call once and said,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: you're well out of the force. Then Jimmy's on his
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: way to the little town where hunt Is is living,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: and I think he's going to do him in and
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: do himself in. So you got involved in that, and
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: he didn't fortunately at that time. But I think it
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: was only because there was a I think you alerted
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: the local constabulary and they went around and made sure
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: everthing was okay.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: But these things are very emotional.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: I think for police who don't have that personal facility
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: and that liking of rapport, these things can be very
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: traumatic and even lead to some post traumatic stress type situations.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: You can't walk away from the survivors. I always said,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: and so Jimmy Butterworth was one. Once we've done that
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: because Jimmy said how his mum had been told by police,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: don't you worry. We'll solve this, we'll find it. Well,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I never did. But worse than that half a period
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: of time, where's a bit thin. You know.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: They move on.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: But I still contact the survivors from certain crimes because
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: we formed a relationship, whether it be a murder or
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: a significant matter. I will still and I still meet
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: with some and have coffee lunch. I still catch up
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: with these ladies who were victims of horrendous crimes or
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: family members whose loved ones were murdered, because for a
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: period of time I became for them the holder of
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the only information they wanted. They didn't they want an
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: instri it in anything else. It's just what happened to
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: their sister, their brother, whatever. So you form this relationship. Now,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: I suppose you've got to be careful that you don't
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: ever do it or get lost in that. But that
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: is the reality of life, isn't it that these people
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: you become the connection to the state because you are
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: the police investigating. So you form this relationship and you
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: become this person, and they still like to talk to you.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: They still want to catch up and do things, and
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to do it. So yeah, that's the great
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: thing that comes out of it. You can say whatever
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: you're like, but I'm still that happy that Tamika still
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: phones up and I'm now her ride or die person.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: So I like that.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: Indeed, now you picked up the Butterworth brief. It was
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: in a bunch of boxes, I think the police museum
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: or something like that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: You did your best.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: You didn't get the result that you should have it's
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: back in a box. If you're the head of Glenorky's
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: CIB and you've got this iconic case still on your
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: books today, you've still got the alleged perpetrator who's alive,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: and do you go back to him? What advice would
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: you give the officer in charge of the file.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Now, what I would do, I'd get Millouse and get
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: him to go over the stuff that's happened since he left.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: That's what i'd do. I'd say, yeah, Garry, come in
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: a couple of days you an office, sit in there,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: buy your coffee and everything. I'm going to pay you
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: because that's sair. The government's broke and he's a stadium
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: supporter so he'll support Tasmania building the stadium and not
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: being paid. So carry get him in and say this
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: is what's happened since you last looked at it. Have
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: a look and tell us what you think. And then
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I'd go to We had probably Tasmania Police best ever
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: analyst in Christine Rushton, look at it and so Carrie
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: review what's been done since, sit down with Christine and
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: crunch it together and tell us where we're at with it,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: because not where we're at with it. That sounds a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: bit trite, but is there anything that we can do?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that has been done or what's changed?
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And Carrie, you've got an intimate knowledge of it, Christine,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: you are the analyst, So please review what Carrie finds
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: and even direct carry to do certain things. And that's
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: what I'd do.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd be there in a flash, I'm sure. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I mean the problem is that a lot of.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: Police regard ex police as their worst enemies, you know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: and they can be very negative, you know. But I
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: think circumstances, all the cases, broken noses, all the faces,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. You know, things change, and
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: you look at these old offenders, Jeffrey Charles Hunter is
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: now in his mid to late seventies, I think. And
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: there's that phrase, the hopeless expectation of impending doom, the
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: deathbed confession.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Is that the last throw of the dice on a
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: case like this.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, because why say that I'm not interested in charge
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: and hunt with murder. What I'm interested in is finding
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: out where Lucie is. If he can confirm the site
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: that we dug up and Jimmy has a memorial to
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: La Seal, if he can confirm that is the sight,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: or if it's not, if we could find human remains
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and give them back to the family and she can
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: be disposed of, Yeah, that's it. I've got no interest
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: in Hunt being charge of murder. Sorry obviously if that's
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the counter yep, but no. My interest is being able
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to say to the Butterworth family right now, Jimmy, Coum
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: and Dad, everybody can be at rest because we're putting
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: a loose sealed to rest. If you could do that,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: then that's the end. Yeah, and people can move on.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: I think it's a very good point because I mean
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: for the listeners, I mean, Jeffrey Charles Hunt's living in
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: this little town in Tasmania. He has no life whatsoever,
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, is in a form of incarceration of itself.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: That won't please the Butterworth family, but I think it's true.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: So I think that that ability for him to be
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: given the opportunity to say this is what I did
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: with her, because he talked about it in nineteen sixty nine.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: He talked about stopping in the little side parking there
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: on the way to New Norfolk. So the question is
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: you've got to sell him again on the idea of
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: repeating that to bring some sort of closure, And I
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: guess an interviewer of today would have to do exactly
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: what you did, create that rapport and to say, Jeffrey,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: it's time to unburden yourself all those persecution isolation. I
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: think one of the biggest problems you've got down there
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: is you've only got Risdom as a prison. What was
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: great for not great, but was beneficial for Hunt was
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: being at Hayes Prison farm where he got.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: To be out and about him.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: He had these dogs there and he was hurting the
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: sheep around and these were the golden years for him.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: He talked about, you know, so absolutely.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: Going into Risdom prison, which is one of the most
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: heenous prisons in Australia still, let's face it, cold and
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: nasty and not very nice, gives him no and send
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: it at all.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: So selling him jail is extremely difficult. But can someone
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: sell him redemption? I don't know, because hey sell him
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: putting the family at ease or saying right, I don't know,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: put yourself at ease. Is there a soul there that
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: can be reached that wants to put itself at ease?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Or it's already at ease, But is there a component
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: of his personality that says, I will make the Butterworths
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: feel comfortable and those that have gone in the past
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: can rest assured that we've now located Lucille and there's
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: other missing persons. I'd love to do that for all
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: of their families, but the Lucille Butterworth one is one
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: that the relationship carry Christine form with the family is
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: such that you just wish that you could for them
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: say Okay, John Butterworth, come back to Tasmania. Here is
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: your sister's rest in place in the decide what you'd
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: want to do, and hopefully yeah, Jeffrey Charles Hunt saw
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: some form of light, some redemption and said issues, he
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to say I'm sorry, he doesn't have to
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: say anything whatsoever. He'd accept his sorry. But yeah, it'd
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: be nice if that happened.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, I'm.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: Not sure it will, but I think if they don't try,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: they'll never will find out.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: And it's another question.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: It's another example of being ready to talk to people,
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: even the lowest in the community, because it's not about
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: judging him, it's about understanding them. And I think that's
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: what you did in spage in your career. Plub, there's
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: been a pleasure to speak to you. We talk about
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: other cases. We probably half a dozen more we can
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: talk about. We can wat you get your back for those.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: But I want to thank you for your friendship and
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: your service to the people of Tasmane.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: Those that are listening to this will will take a
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: leaf out of the old school copper's book about walking
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: and talking. Thanks for your time, mate, I appreciate it.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Thanks very much for your time, Adam, Thank you, Jill
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: your plumber. That's David Plumpton, retired Detective Inspector of Tasmania Police.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: I'd love to see the Lucille Butterworth case sold and
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: I think in that interview that Plumpton and Millhouse did
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: with a hunt was very close.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Maybe not, but they certainly broke the ice.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: I hope someone else gets that box dusted off once more,
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: as not ago before he dies, because it's not just
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: the family, it's the whole community and the confidence that
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: police have that these murder cases are never closed. And
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: I know that John Butterworth, who's the sole surviving member
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: of that family, he would give anything for that to happen.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: So anyway, we'll see what happens there.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: But if you've got a crime you'd like to report,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: please call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: If you don't trust the coppers, and some people don't,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: I get that, you can always email me Adam Shanner,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: writer at gmail dot com. I will treat your inquiry information,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: whatever it is, with the utmost confidentiality.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listen. This is but Adam Shah and
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: for real crime.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what podshape really
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: cares about. Right now, there's thousands of people listening to
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: this show and our other true Crimes, and they're completely engaged.
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.