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Programme delivery in the defence sector · Project Podcast

0:14
Hello and welcome to the APM Podcast.
0:17
My name is Professor Adam Bodison and I'm the Chief
0:20
Executive of APM and your host today.
0:23
We're delighted to welcome to the podcast Steve Langbridge.
0:26
Now Steve is the Director of Programmes at SEAA Company,
0:31
based in the southwest of England, which specialises in
0:34
developing and delivering defence solutions to a global
0:37
customer base. It's business areas include
0:40
naval, ship and fleet protection and undersea surveillance
0:43
systems. Steve was appointed to his
0:46
Director role in July, having previously been head of the
0:49
Project Management office. In this conversation, Steve's
0:52
going to tell us what it's like to deliver projects and
0:55
programmes in the defence sector, including the challenges
0:58
of working in such a fast evolving and complex space.
1:02
So Steve, thanks very much for joining us.
1:05
And to kick off, let's talk a little bit about you and your
1:08
background. Can you give us a a sense of
1:10
your background and also your career journey to date?
1:14
Yeah, hi. I mean, it's great to meet you
1:16
and I really appreciate the opportunity to to join today.
1:19
So in terms of my background, I've been really fortunate to
1:21
work across a number of sectors with, with lots of really
1:24
exciting teams. But if I if I rewind right back
1:26
to the start, I began my career as an electronic engineering
1:30
apprentice. I was really fortunate to work
1:32
for a company that supported my education and I developed along
1:35
that technical path all the way through to a bachelor's degree
1:39
level in, in electronics. At that point, I made a switch
1:42
into, into management and leadership when I, I completed a
1:45
master's degree in engineering management alongside various
1:48
other complementary leadership and project management
1:51
qualifications. And, and I guess it's this point
1:53
in that, that transition that coincided with my move away from
1:56
hands on engineering and into leadership positions.
1:59
So, so professionally over the last 20 years, I've had the
2:02
privilege of leading diverse teams across Europe, delivering
2:06
projects in sectors ranging from industrial power generation to
2:10
aerospace to fast moving consumer goods.
2:12
And then as you mentioned more recently in the defence base
2:15
with SEA. I've had the again, the
2:17
privilege of delivering everything from major capital
2:21
investment projects in personal care, manufacturing lines all
2:24
the way through to the design and development of complex
2:26
systems, some of which I'm sure we'll touch on today.
2:29
Over the course of my career, I've held senior leadership
2:32
roles across engineering, operations and now programmes,
2:35
but I guess the key theme here is that the focus is always on
2:38
delivery people and continuous improvement.
2:42
I, I, I know we always have that advice.
2:43
You know, when you write your CV and they say it's going to be on
2:45
2 pages, I'm thinking that's a heck of ACV Steve, isn't it?
2:49
You know, I don't know how you would keep it on the 2 pages,
2:51
but brilliant that, that, what a fantastic background.
2:54
So that's a bit about you. What about SCA?
2:56
You kind of touched on it briefly.
2:58
Maybe you could tell us a bit about when it was founded and
3:00
the types of products you develop, who your customers are
3:03
and so on. Yeah, absolutely.
3:05
So SEA or systems engineering assessment as is otherwise known
3:08
is AUK based defence company. We were founded in 1961 and we
3:13
were inquired by the cohort PLC who are an independent
3:16
technology group in 2007. So our team is is made-up of
3:20
over 400 people and we operate across the southwest of the UK
3:23
with three sites and we also have a wholly owned subsidiary
3:26
in Canada. So as you mentioned at the
3:28
start, our expertise lie in shipping, free protection,
3:31
underwater surveillance and complex systems integration.
3:34
The big things for us as we design, manufacture and deliver
3:36
a wide range of advanced products and capabilities which
3:39
are often modular and adaptable to meet specific customer
3:42
challenges. So some of the core products and
3:45
and again I'm sure we'll touch on this later, but we deliver
3:48
world leading torpedo launcher systems both into the UK and and
3:52
Navy's globally. We have Cratesense Toda Ray
3:55
system, which is a flexible scaler, scalable and modular
3:59
sonar system. And then most recently we have
4:02
designed, developed a trainable countermeasure launcher called
4:06
Ancilla, which is a rapid protection decoy system designed
4:09
to protect naval vessels. I'll do some jargon busting on
4:13
that, that that later. All of the products that we we
4:16
make are designed and manufactured at our facility in
4:19
North Devon and we support customers including the UKMOD
4:23
and other navies internationally across Asia, the Indo Pacific
4:27
region, Europe, South America and Canada.
4:29
We work closely with shipyards, governments and lots of defence
4:33
partners. So we're we're in a really good
4:36
position because we understand some of the challenges that that
4:38
are being faced and we're again uniquely positioned that we can
4:42
provide solutions that meet these challenges both now and in
4:45
the longer term. The the last thing on this I
4:48
mentioned is that we're part of the larger group called the
4:50
cohort EOC. The benefit of this for us is
4:53
that this group gives us the backing and the stability of a
4:56
larger organisation while still allowing us to operate with the
5:00
agility and focus of a specialised mid tier defence
5:04
business. Yeah, exciting.
5:06
It is very exciting and, and you know, obviously the, the world
5:09
is in a very challenging place at the moment.
5:13
You know, there's obviously conflicts going on all over the
5:15
place and, and I guess for businesses operating in a
5:19
defence space like yours, there's going to be huge demands
5:25
and expectation from you to kind of to meet probably what I guess
5:29
is a, a growing order book. I also mindful that some of some
5:33
of the projects you're working on will be quite sensitive and
5:35
you may not be able to talk about them all, but are there
5:37
any that you can talk about and give us some examples of of
5:41
maybe the kinds of projects that you're working on?
5:45
Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of alluded to some of
5:47
the exciting stuff in in the last question, but if I pick up
5:50
on those three in particular. So Ancilla which is our decoy
5:53
launcher is a new flexible maritime countermeasure system.
5:57
This is designed to provide rapid protection to ships from
6:00
modern threats like anti ship missiles.
6:02
Before I kind of go any further on that, a countermeasure is a
6:05
bit it's essentially something that's designed to deceive or
6:08
mislead a threat such as an incoming missile.
6:11
There are lots of different types of countermeasures, but
6:13
typically they can include things like physical decoys that
6:16
create a cloud that masks a target or a ship, or it can be a
6:21
pyrotechnic countermeasure that fires a flare to attract heat
6:24
seeking missiles. So that's essentially what the
6:25
decoy launcher does and and how the countermeasures operate.
6:29
So, so for us on cilia it is is a slightly different.
6:33
So older systems are typically fixed in place on a ship.
6:37
So when a threat is detected, the ship would need to adjust so
6:41
that it could fire the countermeasure in the
6:42
appropriate position. What's really important here is
6:46
that and sillier is actually trainable by its nature.
6:49
And what that means is it can rotate and be aimed, meaning the
6:53
ship doesn't have to respond and and move to these threats.
6:56
That's really vital because the speed of missiles is
6:58
significantly different now to what it was 20 years ago.
7:01
So that's a vital capability and we recently won a, a £135
7:06
million contract with the UKMOD to give our navies this
7:09
capability to help us defend against attacks at sea.
7:13
So that's that, That's kind of the first one.
7:15
The the second one is is a product called Cratesense.
7:17
And this is a flexible sonar system which includes one of our
7:21
world leading toad array systems called Crater Wave.
7:24
But again, a little bit of explanation what that means.
7:27
A toad array is essentially an underwater surveillance system
7:31
that's made-up of acoustic sensors, usually hydrophones,
7:33
which are to really just underwater microphones which are
7:37
towed behind a ship on a long cable they used to detect and
7:40
trap underwater objects like submarines and other things.
7:44
Obviously a key part of this though is to correctly identify
7:46
the sounds you're picking up. What you don't want to do is mis
7:49
categorise a ship with a whale or a wave or something like
7:53
that. So that's that's kind of how a
7:54
toad array works and that's where kind of create sense for
7:57
us comes in. It comprises of a 20 millimetre
8:00
toad array and and that's quite small compared to traditional
8:03
toad arrays, which are more like 19 millimetres.
8:06
This smaller size naturally means it's lighter and therefore
8:09
uses a lot less power than traditional arrays and this
8:12
means that it can be fitted to a wider range of vessels.
8:16
Again, typically these older systems are more complex,
8:19
they're very large and they're really only suitable for
8:22
specialist navies and specialist ships.
8:25
Whereas again, this is this is more flexible so it can be
8:27
fitted on smaller ships and can even be used in an uncrewed on
8:31
an uncrewed vehicle too. This flexibility also means
8:35
that, you know, navies that are operating across large
8:37
coastlines or island regions where threats seem to be growing
8:41
at a faster rate can have this type of protection.
8:44
So this is an essential key product as we move forward in
8:48
the anti submarine warfare kind of world.
8:49
And again, we're, you know, much like Ryan Cillier product that
8:53
we talked about before, we're really proud to be supplying
8:54
Cratesense to a Southeast Asian Navy and which is really helping
8:58
them enhance their defence and again, and get this cost point
9:02
completely different to that that heavy infrastructure.
9:05
And then probably lastly and it just rounding off the other
9:08
products we talked about earlier is our torpedo launcher system.
9:12
So this is designed as a lightweight system that can
9:14
defend against submarines and other threats.
9:17
For us our TLS or our torpedo launcher system is configurable.
9:21
One of our configurations is a triple launcher, which means we
9:24
can fire all three torpedoes from one unit at a time.
9:27
And this is quite a unique product as well because it's
9:30
weapon agnostic. So navies aren't locked into one
9:33
safari or one round time. There are some configurations
9:36
that are needed, but that's, that's a, that's a unique thing
9:38
for us and it's relatively easy to maintain and much like our
9:41
other two products and we have recently secured contracts to
9:46
supply this to the Royal Malaysian Navy as well as navies
9:49
in Latin America. So hopefully that gives you a,
9:52
you know, a good flavour of what we're working on on a day-to-day
9:55
basis. Thank you for that, Steve.
9:57
So yeah, it's really interesting.
9:58
And I wonder if I just might ask a different question before I
10:02
ask you about kind of what a typical day looks like.
10:05
At the beginning you talked about your career trajectory
10:08
almost as an engineer. I know that you're now in a kind
10:12
of director of programmes role. So I kind of project type role.
10:15
And when I listen to you talking about the various products that
10:19
SEA has, I was in my mind thinking as a kind of product
10:22
management element to this. I mean as a kind of
10:24
professional, how do you kind of I identify so is it as an
10:29
engineer, as a project professional, as a product, a
10:32
development professional? Is it a bit of all of those?
10:34
Yes, it's a great question. I don't know if I've ever been
10:36
asked that. I, I, I see myself as a project
10:39
professional. And I think that's, that's
10:41
really important because I think it's a, it's a, it's a skill set
10:44
that provides a unique, a unique offer into the world.
10:48
And sometimes you don't always really notice that.
10:50
But I absolutely see myself as a, as a project professional.
10:53
And I'm fortunate that I've had some really fantastic rounding
10:57
in other areas. And I find that particularly in
10:59
my current role in the defence, that my engineering background
11:02
is helpful. Honestly, it gives you that
11:05
broader understanding of what's actually happening on the
11:08
ground, what the team's really working on.
11:10
And, and because I've been there a little bit myself, albeit a
11:13
long time ago, you, you kind of see some of the challenges, but
11:17
also some of the really good things they do.
11:18
So again, that's really helpful. And similarly, the operational
11:21
elements of my, my previous lives, I guess one of the better
11:25
words again, gives me that kind of understanding of what's
11:28
happened in other parts of our business, which again are vital
11:31
to projects. But now I absolutely see myself
11:33
as a project profession. But I'm grateful for your
11:36
beauties I've had. I was hoping that's what you
11:38
would say. So in terms of your, your role
11:41
then at the moment. So you, you obviously got this
11:43
recently, recent promotion as the director of programmes.
11:47
You know, there'll be people listening to this that don't
11:49
have a sense of what that means in practise.
11:53
You know, what is, is there such a thing as a typical day?
11:55
You know, what is the, the remit of the role?
11:57
Can you tell us a little bit about about that, what that
12:00
means? Yeah, of course.
12:03
And I, I guess the first thing I can say is, as you would
12:05
probably imagine and everybody else would imagine, it's quite
12:08
broad. It's quite broad in scope.
12:10
And I suppose if you boil that right back, it's at its core.
12:14
I'm ultimately accountable the project and programme delivery
12:17
and performance of both projects and programmes across our
12:19
business. So that means I really need to
12:22
ensure that we've got the right capability in our teams, the
12:24
right structure and the right culture to ensure that we can
12:28
continue to deliver complex solution with both agility.
12:31
And that's a really big thing, particularly as our world is
12:34
evolving, but also assurance. So those are the kind of the
12:37
real, the core bits. I mean, we talked about some of
12:40
the, the competencies of SCA earlier and, and me
12:44
specifically, I leave a team structured around 8 distinct
12:47
business areas. And each of these areas are
12:49
responsible for delivering specialist capabilities to our
12:52
various customers globally range in for things like the torpedo
12:56
launches that are talked about to advanced solar systems to Com
12:59
system. So there's a lot in there too.
13:01
And these teams are at the heart of our growth ambitions.
13:05
And, and through the projects that they're delivering and the
13:08
products they're creating, the project teams and the
13:11
engineering and technical teams within them are basically
13:14
delivering stuff that's reinforcing our reputation as a
13:17
trusted supplier. I suppose it is difficult to
13:19
really tell you what a typical day looks like, but ultimately
13:23
my role really is about enabling teams to deliver high impact
13:27
solutions and and about clearing the path for them to be able to
13:30
do what they're good at. So yeah, it's absolutely that.
13:33
Really. Yeah, that makes sense.
13:34
So, so let's talk a little bit then about the kind of
13:38
commercial side of things. So my impression of the defence
13:42
sector traditionally, as has been, it's quite a high bar to
13:46
enter. So you know, like a new, a new
13:48
company turning up, for example, that wanted to compete with you,
13:51
I think would find it or historically would have found it
13:54
quite difficult for all kinds of reasons ranging from, you know,
13:58
national security, intelligence type thresholds to, to, to, to
14:01
get through and so on. But also the, the, the, the, the
14:04
kind of level of, of technology and innovation, you kind of need
14:09
it. It would be quite hard as a new
14:10
player coming into that. However, now with advances in
14:14
tech and, and so on, I, I wonder whether that's changing.
14:18
And, and also just how as an organisation you just kind of
14:21
keep ahead of the curve because I guess you've also got
14:25
organisations similar to yours operating in other parts of the
14:28
world who are competing against you and supplying other
14:32
countries and so on. So how do you stay ahead of
14:36
what's going on and kind of continue to be innovative and
14:39
everything else? Yeah, you're right.
14:42
Actually the barriers to entries that were that's typically a
14:44
kind of subsiding a little bit now.
14:47
And we talk about the evolution in the defence base.
14:50
Obviously the government is well publicised, the government are
14:52
investing a lot of money in the Union and and this in this
14:56
increase in investment is absolutely driving a rapidly
14:59
evolving well. So innovation is typically
15:02
happening on multiple bunts. And what we're seeing is that
15:05
there's a major shift towards autonomous vehicles and, and
15:08
emerging sonar technologies. So for us, it's about making
15:12
sure that we're playing in the right places and that we're
15:14
using our skill sets in the right areas.
15:16
So, you know, a key area we're focused on is evolving our sonar
15:19
technologies to allow for faster updates, greater interrogation
15:23
of data, better fit with evolving navies and platforms
15:27
and giving that kind of improved cross functionality to different
15:30
domains and not just necessarily always the maritime domain.
15:33
Obviously this this transition to kind of unmanned vehicles
15:37
and, and investment in ships and marines into operability or the
15:41
ability to work with different systems is absolutely key.
15:44
And again, that's something that's at the forefront of our
15:46
mind when we develop. You know, they're essentially
15:49
got a modern defence. The, the thing about in terms of
15:52
staying ahead of the curb, we're really proud of SCA are all of
15:55
the ways that we kind of do that.
15:58
You mention about small businesses, we're uniquely
16:01
positioned here too in that we're still small enough that we
16:05
can respond quickly for changing demands and we can be agile and
16:09
we can pivot, but we're large enough that we can scale to
16:12
solutions. So the other thing that we do
16:15
and I talked about those products earlier is we invest
16:17
our own funds in product development and innovation.
16:20
So we're not always waiting. We're, we're investing ourselves
16:22
in, in private bench work and we, we determine how best to do
16:27
that through a few different means.
16:31
So we've got a a whole host of subject matter experts and
16:34
domain specialists within our business, which we're very
16:36
fortunate to have. We also have as we talked about
16:39
earlier, close relationships with navies and customers around
16:42
the world and kind of the combination of these help us
16:46
shape our product Rd mass to match what we see as the
16:49
immediate needs today, but give us a steal on what we think the
16:52
emerging needs are. So in some cases what we need
16:55
today is going to be a little bit different to what we need in
16:57
5-10 years time. So we have to kind of predict a
17:00
little bit, but we're well positioned.
17:03
The other nice thing that we do, so in those eight business areas
17:06
that have one of those of research and simulation business
17:08
area and that particular area works really closely with
17:12
defence science and the technology laboratory with PSTL
17:16
and they deliver research and studies for the UKMOD.
17:19
So this collaboration is, is also a great bus.
17:21
It doesn't just support cutting edge exploration, but it also
17:25
ensures that all of the outcomes from that are strategically
17:28
along with what we're working on.
17:29
So again, it's another extra insight that helps us stay on
17:32
that front foot. So I suppose what I'm really
17:34
saying is, is that kind of blended approach between the the
17:38
technical work we do with the STL, the customer insight that
17:40
we have and some of our own kind of strategic foresight means
17:43
that we can kind of stay compared.
17:45
Yeah, that, that, that all makes good sense.
17:47
I like that idea of the sweet spot.
17:48
Small enough to be nimble, but large enough to scale.
17:51
That's that's really interesting.
17:53
What you, you didn't really touch on AI so much there.
17:56
You know, it's obviously impacting every business in
17:59
every country. How is it affecting the the
18:03
sector, but specifically the work that you're doing on a
18:05
day-to-day basis? Yes, great question, isn't it?
18:09
And of course it's it's really easy and and really tempting to
18:13
get caught up in in with the hyper guiding AI.
18:16
And it also doesn't seem that sensible to ignore it.
18:20
At SCA, what we're doing really is identifying specific areas
18:22
where we can use AI in a targeted manner.
18:25
So again, we've talked a common effect through this so far has
18:28
been our solar systems, and that's where AI and machine
18:30
learning can be transformational to the way that we process data
18:34
and analyse data. So this is particularly crucial
18:36
for navies that are starting to use uncrewed vehicles.
18:40
So what we need are systems that can rapidly detect, respond and
18:43
even predict threats. And of course, all of that needs
18:46
to be done with minimal human intervention.
18:49
So in effect, what we're looking at is how can AI augment
18:52
traditional capabilities and reduce the workload of
18:55
traditional sonar operators and still enable fast data
18:59
understanding an accurate, an aid accurate decision making.
19:02
So that's really where it's really making the biggest inroad
19:05
for us at the moment in our product offering.
19:07
But outside that, the use of AI is going to have an impact
19:11
everywhere else from meeting support to document production
19:14
to software development. It does sort of seem inevitable
19:18
that this is going to on everywhere to make everybody's
19:21
lives easier and, and really free up time for impactful
19:24
things. So, yeah, so for us, there's a
19:25
lot of hype, but what we're doing is making sure that we're
19:28
taking a measured, innovation driven approach to integrating
19:31
AI where we think it can make a real difference.
19:34
What I I hear and see out and about is the more that that the
19:39
defence sector kind of uses AI to keep people safe, the more
19:44
that people who are out there wanting to cause threats are
19:46
going to use AI to tackle that. You know, are we going to end
19:49
up, if I kind of get my crystal ball out for a moment now, are
19:52
we going to end up in a situation where when there is
19:55
conflict between countries and so on that we're going to end up
19:59
actually with just AI fighting other AI?
20:01
Is that is that where we're headed?
20:03
It's. Hard to predict, isn't it?
20:05
But the thing you write warfare, warfare is changing rapidly and
20:09
and that's what's driving, that's what's driving innovation
20:12
and and the big change in innovation.
20:13
So if you think about, you know, the war in Ukraine, it's being
20:16
fought in a different kind of way with drones and you know,
20:19
autonomous vehicles and AI driven responses and threat
20:23
detection. So it's not unreasonable.
20:25
It's not, it's not unreasonable to think that, you know, it will
20:28
continue to change the way that warfare works.
20:30
And that's some of the challenge that we have and other companies
20:32
have where we have to predict what we need right now and what
20:35
we think we're going to use in the next couple of years.
20:37
But what will warfare and what will defence look like in in
20:40
kind of five years time? So it's difficult to answer, but
20:43
you're right, it is easier to see the defence, particularly
20:47
being, you know, more focused on our technology.
20:51
Interesting, interesting times. Now, I always talk about the
20:55
project profession and project management roles being kind of
20:59
transferable between sectors. But equally I also know that
21:03
there are some things that are specific to particular sectors.
21:06
You know, if you're working in the legal profession, delivering
21:09
projects, it's going to be different than if you're in
21:10
nuclear, if you're in defence and so on.
21:12
So when it comes to defence, what would you say is the things
21:15
that might be unfamiliar to people who are outside of the
21:19
defence sector? So what is it that your project
21:22
professionals are dealing with? Kind of, if you like, above and
21:24
beyond the standard expectations of project professionals.
21:29
It's, it is unique, you're right.
21:30
But like all sectors, managing scope is always a challenge.
21:34
I suppose the the thing in defence is, is that scope can
21:36
vary massively. So you can end up with a
21:39
situation where you have, you know, really detailed
21:42
requirements at a low technical level actually, and for a
21:46
different customer, you can have something that's really high
21:48
level and board. And I suppose the key for us is
21:50
to interfere all of these types of things found them in a way
21:53
that aligns with our workload friends and quite honestly gives
21:56
us a clear, manageable contracting mechanism.
21:59
You know, with that variety in scope, it's really important
22:03
that we make sure that we can both get on and off contracts so
22:05
that they're quite important. But beyond that, one of the more
22:08
distinct challenges in defence sector, which we we kind of
22:11
always touched on is the pace of pace of change and the rise of
22:16
uncrewed and autonomous platforms.
22:18
So this means that we're constantly ensuring that
22:19
capabilities we're developing today will remain relevant over
22:23
the life of the project or the programme.
22:25
So we manage this, as we said earlier, by investing in our own
22:27
product development. But again, we need to make sure
22:29
that those products we're developing today do have the
22:31
ability to kind of pivot and diversify themselves or the
22:34
ability to spiral develop them and add future capabilities.
22:38
So that's also that's also quite important.
22:40
The, the irony here though, in the defence sector is that this
22:44
rapid pace at the innovation stage, it contrasted with the
22:48
long life cycle of a project. Once you're on contract, it's
22:51
not unusual once again, once you're on contract for a project
22:54
to run for 10 years or more, particularly once the capability
22:58
is in service. So, so the change is kind of
23:00
shift. So at that point, skills
23:03
retention, knowledge continuity and and maintaining long term
23:06
stakeholder relationship becomes really crucial because again,
23:10
it's not just a A1 to two year project and in, you know, in
23:15
sectors like IT potentially projects are a lot faster in
23:17
turn around. So we need to kind of consider
23:20
that. And then going back to that
23:21
capability piece, over the course of that 1015 years, how
23:24
are we going to introduce spiral development?
23:26
How are we going to increase capability, particularly when
23:30
today we don't necessarily know what that's going to look like,
23:32
but you know, the physical system is there.
23:35
And of course, in that same time frame, you've got things like
23:38
obsolescence tonight. So again, things like processing
23:41
today and and the, the, the type of systems that are needed today
23:44
are going to look quite different to kind of 1012 years
23:46
time, particularly if we talk about AI advances.
23:49
So those types of things are, are quite different in our
23:53
world. So I suppose while the core
23:55
principles are generally shared across lots of sectors, defence
23:59
demands a unique balance, that ability to move quickly and
24:02
innovate, but also kind of plan for longevity, sustainability
24:06
and mission critical delivery. So it's a bit of an oxy ball of
24:09
it. Yeah.
24:10
No, that makes sense. And so you talk about skills
24:12
there. Do you, when you're recruiting
24:14
for staff, do you kind of recruit kind of if you like pure
24:19
project professionals and then give them the extra that they
24:21
might need that you've just talked about?
24:23
Or do you try and recruit specifically to these quite
24:26
specialist kind of skills that you've you've talked about?
24:29
So if we, if we focus on the project management sphere for a
24:32
second, you know, the reality is we take a blended approach to
24:35
recruitment and we're actively looking to bring in experienced
24:38
senior project leaders, particularly with people that
24:41
have a background in, you know, defence project delivery,
24:43
because their sector knowledge and, and you know, educational
24:46
background, I mean, they can hit the ground running for us.
24:48
So they're, they're incredibly valuable.
24:50
But at the same time with with family committees developing
24:53
talent from within and that includes bringing in junior
24:56
professionals and helping them develop through our business.
24:59
Sometimes it means taking other people within others other
25:02
departments. So engineers are a good example
25:04
and cross training those, particularly when an engineer
25:07
demonstrates strong potential and a genuinely interest in
25:09
project management. But we also welcome individuals
25:12
from outside our sector who've got solid project management
25:14
fundamentals but might need support to build up that
25:17
industry specific experience. So that, that's kind of the, the
25:22
approach and obviously recruitment varies for us
25:24
massively depending on our site. So we got three sites in
25:26
Southwest. It's obviously easier to recruit
25:28
in Bristol for lots of reasons than it is in, in Barnstable in
25:31
North Devon. Both have their, both have their
25:33
other sides. So Bristol's obviously far more
25:35
competitive. Typically in New Devon, if you
25:38
join the company, you generally stay there because you're,
25:41
you're either living there for a work life balance or you're
25:43
moving to the area for a work life balance that you, you
25:46
otherwise don't have. So again, it's quite different
25:48
and in possible this year we've actually got an employee that's
25:50
celebrating 50 years with the company.
25:52
So it's so those things are really are really, really
25:55
important for us. But again, that's where working
25:57
with you guys and, and, and the APM more broadly to make sure
26:00
that we create structure project management pathways in our
26:03
business. We align with your competency
26:05
framework and we get our educational piece right.
26:07
So that actually if we aren't recruiting senior leaders that
26:11
that have been in our space for a long time, that we're able to
26:14
support that development. Now I hope, I hope it gets
26:17
something, a good gift for being there for that long.
26:20
That's what I would say. You talk about leadership there.
26:25
So let's, let's talk about that. You, you obviously are, you
26:28
know, a distinguished leader yourself.
26:31
You've probably worked with lots of distinguished leaders.
26:33
You know, what would you, in your opinion, say is like the
26:36
one most important trait of a great project leader?
26:40
If I could push you to do 1. If I had to pick one, I I would
26:45
go with emotional intelligence. And the reason I picked that is
26:48
because that's what ties everything together.
26:50
If, if you can't understand your people, if you can't feel
26:53
trustworthy teens and you can't leave with empathy, you're
26:57
really going to struggle to, to deliver this and you're going to
27:02
really struggle to create a team that can be really well
27:04
performing. If you've got that, you can
27:06
recognise when people are struggling and, and when you
27:09
reckon that could be the difference between project
27:10
stalling and being successful. If you can see when somebody
27:13
can't necessarily see the bigger picture and you can help that,
27:17
you'll encourage different things.
27:18
So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of right answers here, but I
27:21
probably would stick with emotionally intelligence.
27:23
If you if you've got that and you're ready to kind of tie that
27:25
team together, that's that's the dinner.
27:29
Yeah, I'm, I'm actually really encouraged by that answer
27:31
because one of my kind of hobby horses, if you like, and people
27:35
who, who listen to me regularly on the podcast will know this is
27:37
I'm really pushing the kind of the people side of project
27:40
management and, and broadly speaking, the competencies fall
27:45
into kind of process and people type things.
27:47
We, we could have a debate about whether that's true.
27:49
But I, I, I, I argue that, you know, with the advent of AI and
27:53
everything else, the process side of things is probably going
27:56
to be the bit that gets eroded over time and that people side
27:59
of things, which is already important, becomes even more
28:01
important. And emotional intelligence, I
28:04
think is, is, is right up there. So I think that's a great
28:06
answer. Thank you.
28:07
Well, look, thanks very much Steve for for for joining us
28:10
and, and also to everybody who's listening or watching.
28:13
We'll be back in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, if
28:15
you've got any comments or feedback, then please do e-mail
28:18
us. You can get us at
28:20
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk or if you're a Spotify user, you
28:25
can leave us a comment directly in the app.
28:28
So that's it for this episode and we'll see you next time.