Latest / One Voice Many Conversations / Crushing Strongholds #054 Special Guest-Rick Sorenson- Art: The Church's Response

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Crushing Strongholds #054 Special Guest-Rick Sorenson- Art: The Church's Response · One Voice Many Conversations

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:00
  unknown: Okay.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another great episode of Crushing Strongholds.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast where we turn pain into power, trauma into triumph.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we do that?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We do that ex by exposing the lives of the enemy.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: We also do that through testimonies from individuals that come on here and and share how they have overcome obstacles in their life and they have literally crushed strongholds.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sharing your testimony helps break those barriers down.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's what this podcast is all about.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Today I have an amazing guest today.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to bring him on and get to have a great conversation.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: This gentleman is an artist, which I absolutely love.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you that know me, know I'm an art guru.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: He has um been uh creatively driven since he was a child and um went to school, graduated, got his bachelor's degree in fine arts.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: He also teaches, he's a coach, and he's also an author.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um so I want to bring to the table Rick Soresen.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So Rick, come on in and say hello and tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hello, and thank you for having me.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I grew up in Boise, Idaho.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a son of a pastor, and but I've always loved art.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's always been something that I loved.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I that's what I pursued.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a specific type of art or just art in general across the board?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um art in general.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I um I've taught drawing and painting, and so I I love all forms of art.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you grew up as a pastor's kid.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, were you able to use your creativity growing up as a kid, or did you have to wait till you became an adult?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, my parents always encouraged me in being creative.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so in the creative sense, I learned um I I I played the guitar and and the trumpet as a kid, but visual art was always something I I preferred.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really like to practice that much.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I let music go.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But um it wasn't really till I got into seventh grade that I began to have a mature journey of learning art.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had a teacher that taught us a renaissance method of how to draw from observation, was starting with the white ball on a table with the white piece of paper under it, shut out all the lights, close off all the windows, and have one light source shining down at that ball.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then he taught us how to see the shadows, and so you know, learning to draw light was became very exciting for me.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And later on, you know, in the Bible it talks about light, and when you study light, you pay a little more attention to those verses.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that was so even drawing a ball, which is such a simple shape, it's always exciting to me because you're drawing light, you're not just drawing this simple object, but you're drawing the observation of what light does.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's pretty awesome.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I remember taking an art class in seventh grade where we started to learn how by doing the exact same thing, doing shapes and stuff.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um I don't I'm not sure where you went to middle school at.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I went to Hillside Junior High in Boise.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um Oh, I uh I grew up in Nampa, so I went to South Junior High and then graduated from Nampa senior high.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have family that live out that that area.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's interesting because I've been doing podcasting for over a year, and a lot of people are all over, you know, all over the United States and whatnot.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this week I have met two people from Idaho in the same week, and I thought that was just really strange and interesting and a lot of fun too.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other gal that I just um met, we're we want to um try to do a podcast live and see how that goes.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that'll be fun.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So with your creativity um and and and your involvement with church, how do you how do you mix the two together and how to how do you teach on that?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um since the 1970s, there's been a lot of um development of the church accepting art because of Francis Schaefer and what he taught.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so there's a lot more openness now, but there's still a lot of confusion about it too.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And every now and then you'll still um meet people from more traditional churches that view the arts as a negative thing, or or even something that's inspired by the devil and not by God.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um, even though there's been improvement, there's still confusion.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I've tried to address some of that confusion, and how I've done it, um, this is some of what my book addresses is that first God made us in his image, you know.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Genesis says, Let us make man in our own image.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you back up a second, the first chapter in the first verse, God reveals himself to the first time to man as creator.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: In the beginning, God created.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when he said, Let us make man in our own image, part of that image is that we are also creators.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: We have to create because that is part of who we are, into the very fabric of our being, and that's a big revelation for a lot of people, especially in the church.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so I mean, just that foundational issue itself, which has been talked about for the last 40 years, but there's still a lot of confusion about it.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are is being creative still something from God?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it is.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have to create, and if you think about it, everything around us started in someone's imagination and was brought into reality.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to create.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, I'm still listening.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, um getting that's fairly easy for people to understand, but now you go into okay, what are people making?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the Bible talks about their works a lot.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can look in the old testament to see a lot of examples of works, you know.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Say Noah, for example, his work was having to make an ark that had never been created before.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: God gave him kind of a basic pattern, but he had to come up with it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we can talk about the the tabernacle, where the children of Israel had to make all the things of the tabernacle, the the tent itself, the articles in it, the ark of the covenant, everything was originated at God's prompting for that, but still it originated in their imagination, and all the the people that were making it and contributed to it, it all was brought forth by them.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when you start to think about things like that, you know, God initiated many things in the Bible, but he left the particulars up to us that we're the ones that brought it forth, and so um that that is just um talking about people's works, it's not as negative as what is usually thought.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you when you address, you know, how can you know if something is good or bad, then that is always where confusion comes in too, partly because our society has really confused the issue, telling us, you know, we can never know if something is good or bad, it's all based upon our feelings, and that's a lie, it's not really true.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: We can know if something is good or bad, and we do it all the time.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so I'll give you a scenario.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard a no to that everyone has always said yes to me to, and that is you walked out of the movie at the movie theater and thought or said to somebody, you know, they didn't pull it off.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good idea, but they didn't pull it off.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone I say that to always shake their head yes, they never shake their head no, they always go like this.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is a natural thing that we do.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I in my book, I break apart this action.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've identified the idea.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think of work as two parts of a whole the idea and the expression of the idea.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when those two parts come together like an interlocking symphonic harmony, we say, Oh, that's good.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But when they don't match right, we say, Oh, they didn't pull it off.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so evaluating a work, evaluating anything that people do is much more objective than it is subjective.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so that take that takes a lot of the confusion away.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that in in our site society, even like even an engineer is considered an artist in my book.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we're we're all crafted and designed uniquely and differently, but yet we're all creative in our own sense in our own way.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all have some creativity, creativity in us.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um whether it's um um building the Eiffel Tower or you know, putting a painting on a canvas, you know, I think it's all part of creativity, like you said, with works.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and I wonder about like when the church thinks that it some of it might be demonic.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I can I can understand like when they're talking about you know, in Moses' day when they built the golden calf, you know, that was an artistic um act and ability that they did.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um they built it out of gold and they they shaped it and formed it, and then they worshipped it.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I I mean there there are some things in the Bible that I I see where it could give someone the idea that art could be demonic because of those types of things.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But overall, I don't know how anybody would subjectively say that art in itself is satanic, because I think that even the Bible talks about gifts.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're giving all these gifts, and I believe creativity is like is is is huge when it comes to the gifts that God gives us.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even in preaching, if you're called to be a preacher or an evangelist or um a missionary, you're you're you still have to be creative with what you're doing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: How are you getting your message across?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing it creatively, you know, we have to use our minds.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I know the Bible says, you know, we if we're taking every thought captive, like it says in 2 Corinthians, like we're supposed to, and we take it to the knowledge of God, God's gonna bless that.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if our ideas and our creativity, if we're taking that to the to the word of God and we're lining it up, then then there's there's nothing demonic about that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's Holy Spirit filled, I believe.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um the church has often applied morality to how they look at things.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um often the Bible is based upon or or the morality is based upon the Bible, but it's also oftentimes a cultural morality instead of a straight biblical one.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um I've I've met artists that told me that they've been condemned because of the subject matter that they did by other Christians.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Said, how can you do that because you're a Christian?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you must not be a Christian because you're doing this.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I was in art school, I was part of a home group.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I what I would do to fulfill an assignment from school is I would take my drawing notebook and I would draw like a coffee table setup while we were, you know, discussing whatever the scripture that we were discussing.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's kind of fun to draw, and I'd have my notebook on my lap and my my Bible, and I'm drawing and I'm I'm looking.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was really fun to do it that way.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, everybody's curious about what's in the artist's notebook, and so after being in this home group for a couple years, then uh one of the leaders, church leaders' wives, um, wanted to see my notebook.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so the times that I didn't have any money, because you know I was a poor student, I would have to use my small notebook until I had enough money to go get a big pad for my figure drawing class.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I would have these small studies or figure studies in my notebook, and so after looking at my notebook, I had this hour interrogation before I had to go to work because I worked overnight as a security guard.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had this interrogation about how could I do this?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: That I must not be a Christian because I had these figure studies in my my little notebook.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now this is some from somebody that knew me for at least a couple years.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was participating I often participated more than most people in the in the Bible study because you know that's just who I am.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't help it.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So they knew my character, they knew me from this time, and they still were saying, you know, how say I question whether you're a Christian because of this.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you're still going to come against that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's still something, and I've thought about it, of course, a lot over the years, and I've come to think that um, you know, God had to take me through some healing for that, and because that was a major wound for me.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: The it wasn't just going through forgiveness and forgiving them, but also God had to heal that wound.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was uh a big process and before it all got healed.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what did you did you ever taught discuss it with them and let them know the effect that it had on you?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I did discuss it with them, and but they weren't in any place that they could understand what I was saying.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just had to say, oh, well, um it almost came to that, well, we have to agree to disagree because I don't agree with you.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and the home group took place at their house.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't drop out of the church or the home group, I stayed there, and I was I still participated, but what happened was that the result of that, and I I suffered through two more attacks from them.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So this was a total of three separate incidents where I was attacked because they looked at my notebook and said, How can you be a Christian?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I was starting to get to know the family, and what this did was it killed relationship.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: There was no relationship I had with them after that, and that's the result of Christian common condemnation towards artists, is that um if the person that's hurt doesn't leave the church itself, which I know I'm unusual and I I stuck it there because I didn't feel like um God wanted me to leave.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: This was the place that He had for me and I was there.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but it so if artists don't leave the church because of the hurt, then um there's gonna be um what cut-off relationships.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so there'll always kind of be a little tension between the you know, between the parties because of that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've never experienced um I've experienced church hurt before, but not not from an art perspective where a lot of people know that um I'm an artist and that um I I do a lot of stuff around art.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I I do a lot of crafting and artwork and all that kind of stuff, but people that know that know me know that that's just my nature.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think it depends maybe on the church or or like you said, some of some of the older churches.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh even um I have gone to a couple of churches where um they brought in drummers in the you know in the worship team, and and they they that was a big deal.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when they brought in the drummer, that was a big deal.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept thinking, man, what's you know, what what is the big deal about it?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's music, you know.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's beautiful music.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love the drums.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people don't.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: They think it's it's the the bang is um a a um demonic summoning to the to the enemy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, it's not.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, you know, I mean, I mean to me it's not.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, you know, and um they're like, oh, you can't have drums in your church, you know, you can't go to that church if it has drums.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's you know, that church is not following the Bible.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I think that we want to legalize every single thing that the churches do, you know.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even, you know, even with art and and and the the church that I was going to in California, um, I used to flag.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also a form of art.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we used to flag dance.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And some people, you know, some churches look at look against that too.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: They think that you shouldn't be running around flagging in the middle of a church service or during worship service, not during church service.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I think it's it's each one's perspective, but it really can probably have an effect.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, it it could, you know, it can be hurtful and harmful, um, especially being an artist, for someone to say, hey, you're not a Christian.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: That in itself, if someone were to tell me I wasn't a Christian, I would be really concerned whether they are or not, actually, if they were to ask me that, because um, for one, we're not to judge someone's walk with the Lord.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if if you I don't I wouldn't mind somebody ask me if they thought, you know, if they're just kind of questioning me because they want to help me, but if they're condemning me because they have a different of opinion, difference of opinion of me, then that's not that's not how God wants us to talk to people or lead people to to him.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't want to just you know start picking at people.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna send anybody his direction.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so if someone's doing it in in this area, then they'll be doing it in every area.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely could see that happening.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love going to churches where they have someone on the side of the stage and they're painting.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're painting Jesus or the a mural or some type of like sometimes just the scenery or or a tree or a flower, whatever is laid on their heart to paint.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it doesn't have to be a scriptural or biblical picture, it's just whatever they're drawn to painting that day.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love watching them.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I'm intrigued.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And some people will say, well, that's a distraction.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: If they're painting when the service is going on and they're on the side of your painting, it's taken away from the message, you know.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I could see where they come from saying that word where it could be a distraction, but only if you're letting it be a distraction to you.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, that people have to have self-control when you go to a person getting up and going to the bathroom could be a distraction, you know, or a kid saying something, you know.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, the enemy will do anything to take away.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I mean, the enemy likes to distract us any way he can.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: If if he can keep us from getting the actual message and hearing the actual truth, that's what he's gonna try and do anyway.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But um he he's definitely hard at work these days, especially this week.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean that that's Easter week and everything that's going on in the world um today is is so um and it's very tense right now.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of stuff happening.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that you know the enemy knows his days are numbered, honestly.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we're getting so close.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I I was I was literally looking at a meme the other day, and I I I like actually just stared and pondered at it for a little while because I I had to ask myself this question.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So envision this, if you will.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's uh two people on a bus.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: One person sitting on one side looking out the window, and it's like beautiful and they're happy and they're joyful, and the other side, the other one sitting on the other side, you know, with his head down and he's glooming.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's in doom and gloom mode, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what the mean said is Um, are you are you are you excited that Jesus is coming, or are you worried that Jesus is coming?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you, where are you at in that mix?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to think about it because everything that's going on in the world, there's times I I catch myself being worried about.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I worry for people.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I worry for you know people that you know lost souls, souls going to hell.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I worry for that, you know.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know we're you know we all are gonna die.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: We all have you know what we all have an end somewhere in our life.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the joy of Jesus coming back and to be able to be with Jesus is so exciting to me that sometimes it just it just covers all of that nonsense out.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just feel like, you know, even though all this is going on around me, I I'm I'm still at peace because I know who my Lord and Savior is.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I really had to take in that picture and it was a great illustration of where are you with the Lord, you know.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um because we're supposed to, we're not supposed to be worried for anything, it says.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: It says worry for nothing.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I I sometimes I, you know, if I flip flick on the news and I see something, I'm like, oh man, oh man, and instantly the enemy will be like, oh, try to get me all nervous and worried, and and I'm like, Jesus is coming.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just start saying, Jesus is coming, Jesus is coming, you know, because he's coming, and and instead of letting it worry me or bring fear, and um, yeah, that you know, things are gonna happen and and it it can be a little bit um scary out there, but I think that if we keep our eyes on Jesus, we'll be okay.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that is true, and in a sense, creative people have an advantage in that they can channel all that and get it out.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the work can can channel the worry, but it can also provide the solution.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes sense too.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I do agree.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think, but I again I I I honestly in my heart believe that we all are created creative beings, we all have creativity in us.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us just are not operating in that gift.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we do not operate in it in the gifts that God gave us, and that's why they sit idle wondering what to do with themselves, you know, because God has a gift on their life and and they haven't figured it out, you know.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or they buried it, or they buried it, yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean or someone came along and squashed it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's that, and it amounts to the same thing.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they don't believe that they are creative, and so they bury that.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the parable of the talents is a good example of this.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was the the three servants, one got 10, one got five, one got one.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and it's as I was I've thought about this, you know, talent in biblical times was money, but it's the same thing.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about talent, we're talking about an ability.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that applies, or that interpretation applies just as much to that parable as money does.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the person with one talent, what did they do with their talent?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: They buried it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: They buried it, so it's entombed.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: They they buried their talent, so it's not useful, just like money wasn't useful, didn't get any interest, and and the master was upset because that there was no interest on the return.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't use our talent, there's no interest.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: God can't take interest in what we do to participate with us in it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, the Holy Spirit likes to participate with us in the creative act.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I always wondered why, you know, I you know, why he would go and bury it.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I I kind of get I get it because he only has one, so he's probably just thinking I only have one, I have to protect it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, you can't get no interest in it if you if you go and bury it, you know.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, definitely a good thing.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can't increase it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the increase, not only in interest, but in multiplying, where the ones with many talents, they multiplied the talents, but not the one.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so And as Christians, we're supposed to do that.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: We we it it says in Genesis we are to go and multiply.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not just have children, but to to multiply in the you know, in sharing of of Jesus Christ and and the gospel, we're supposed to be sharing that abroad.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell people all the time we need to be, you know, going out and preaching the gospel and telling people about Jesus because time is of the essence and we're running out of time, so we need to, you know, start talking more now, more now than ever than we have before.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like uh Saint Francis, you know, we do it without words and we use words when necessary.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's where our our abilities and talents come in.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, with crushing strongholds, do you have a testimony that you'd like to share with us where you you came up against an obstacle that was really hard to face, uh, you know, in other than just um having someone kind of like question your Christianity?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever had an obstacle like that um where you were really tested and you had to use your faith to overcome?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I accepted Jesus when I was nine.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I mean being the son of a pastor, my dad would would take me to uh coffee shops and restaurants when he was meeting someone.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad's also a counselor, so he you know, I I heard a lot of stuff growing up.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so um for me, accepting Jesus came down to one thing because of every all the people I've listened to was who is going to be in charge of my life, and and it took me a couple years to wrestle with that before I finally told Jesus, okay, you can be in charge.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, then growing up, so that was age nine, when I I knew that's what the issue was about.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so going through junior high and high school, it was just going, you know, just doing school because that's what you had to do.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then after I graduated high school, I went to one year of college because you know that's what you're supposed to do.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I went to college, I took art classes because you know I loved art classes, and I I skipped other classes, played racquetball, shot pool.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so God kicked me out of the house.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm summarizing, and it was a nice thing, but it was time for me to to leave the nest.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I I moved from Boise to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and in Fort Lauderdale, um it was learning how to be on my own to go from a kid to an adult, and part of that was that um I was reacting against my father.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: My father had a very strong personality, and of course, as a pastor and uh counselor, he was almost always right, and and so um I started to date this girl, and um I met her in Idaho when I came home for my first Christmas, and she moved to Fort Lauderdale.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: My my father knew the family and said I shouldn't date her.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I I did kind of somewhat out of rebellion.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was also that I thought so you you know there's times you self-talk to yourself, and if you listen, you'll um sometimes get good stuff.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I knew she wasn't really good for me, but I didn't think I deserved anybody that was good.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just had a um my image of myself was you know really poor.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't think that I could have the best, and so you know, during that time then we had sex, and that was um kind of about as far as my rebellion really went.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we finally broke up and she moved away, then I began to kind of put my life back together after that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And my father sent me a message that he did about our identity in Christ, and that I began to take the so I began to see myself as God saw me, not as I thought about myself, but I began to take on that identity that how God saw me was that I was his son.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you go through these scriptures that were kingdom and priest, so I'm a king's kid, but I'm also a king, and I'm a priest, and how God sees me, I began to see that as myself.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: That it's not who I thought I was, it's who God tells me I am.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I see myself, and that began to change everything about my life because it it wasn't that I I wasn't saved, I was saved, but I wasn't, you know, God wasn't leading my life at that time, and then when I came back and I began to now um, in a sense, grow up and see myself in the way that God saw me, then I began to um participate more in church.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I was a youth leader, I was um involved in home groups and in um evangelism, and all that happened because I began to see myself as God saw me.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it went from being somewhat apathetic to now participatory in what God is doing in my life, and a revelation that God gave me was that I am God's representative to my life.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: That it's not just that um God is guiding me, but I'm the representation of God throughout my life to myself.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you think about things a little bit bit differently, you're God's representative to your own life.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so somewhat the fear, the apathy of just being a kid to becoming now someone that really takes charge all happened because I saw myself as Jesus sees me.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely believe that you know when you when you capture who you are in Christ, it's definitely an eye-opener for sure.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And your walk with the Lord changes drastically when you figure out who you are in Christ.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it definitely works on how you think and and and your thought process and and even your ability to be creative.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it changes that that as well.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: It opens up a whole realm for you.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the additional thing for me is that um in God kicking me out of the house to grow up, then I kept asking God when I could go back to school.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he would tell me, not yet, you know, just keep learning what I have for you.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when it was time for me to go to school, then he asked me, did I want to be a Christian artist or artist who's a Christian?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to figure out the difference.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had the sense that either choice was okay, but you know, what where did what direction did I want to go?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I won't tell you the whole process I went through, but I came to see that the um the difference had to do with audience, because basically who you are is the same, but your audience is different.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: A Christian artist has a narrow audience, Christians, but an artist who's a Christian their audience is the world, and so I in thinking about that, I said, Okay, God, I I don't want to be limited.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I so I I want the world, I don't want just this narrow audience.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Okay, now you can go to school.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then going to an art school, I was the only Christian in my school.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've been involved in evangelism.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, in Fort Lauderdale, you go to the beach to evangelize or or you know, walk through town or you know, wherever.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was involved in evangelism, and God told me not to evangelize when I was in school, and it took me a couple years to understand why.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is that you artists.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if I would have gone out and started just doing what I did, then it would have closed off people.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I had to prove myself on their own terms, and so the times I was able to share, then it penetrated, but it it was all because I had proven myself.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's good to share about Jesus, but it's also times that you need to prove yourself so that when you do say something, it'll be listened to.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's credible, yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a that makes a lot of sense.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good way to look at that though.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, because even like as as a podcaster, you know, we speak to different audiences, and um the one thing I like about the art of podcasting is that we get to reach people across the you know the whole world where um sometimes you wouldn't be able to get that opportunity, and you get to talk with people and hear people's testimonies from all over.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's wonderful.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I think it's it's great.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love having guests come on and share their stories and tell about their lives because I think there's a lot of impact in that because for one, there's people out there that are that go through stuff and they think they're alone in it, but then they hear a podcast about someone who has something familiar with what they're they're going through, they can resonate with it and it helps bring freedom to their life.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then we get to talk about Jesus, you know.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love that we get to talk about Jesus, and um, I'm glad we live in a country where I can freely talk about Jesus and you know, and don't have to be afraid, you know.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, even if I was in a country country where I couldn't was told I couldn't talk about Jesus, I'd probably be in trouble because I probably wouldn't be able to not talk about Jesus.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'd definitely be in a lot of trouble there.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: But so having that in mind, um as a coach and um a visual artist, um, what advice um as we wrap wrap up, what advice can you give to our listeners if someone is kind of wanting to venture out into the art world but they're holding back because of um their Christianity or because um they they may feel that um they're gonna be looked down on.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: What advice can you give them to just keep pressing forward and and dive in?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand it takes a lot of courage to be creative.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: That um most people are overcoming fear.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of fear about being creative, um and so it takes a tremendous amount of courage.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: So give yourself some slack that um everything you do is not going to be awesome, it's a process of learning, of doing something, saying that it could be better, and so the next one you'll do better.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: So understand that learning to be creative is a process, it's not a one-time shot that you gotta be perfect at.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a process of continually improving.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And just remember, step out and courage.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like David.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Be like David.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Be courageous.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell our listeners um how they can how they can reach you?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um if they're interested and they want to um check out your book, um your book's called Art, the Church's Response, and um where they can um get to know more about you, and if they have any questions to ask you about art um um while they're walking out their Christianity, um can you just tell us where they can reach you at?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the the Lanyap Life is where my artist um or my author's pages.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's the publisher, and um, which I'll give you the the link.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I write on Substack about the nature of art and aesthetics or the nature of creating itself to understand so that we can cooperate with it instead of fight against it.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh you can get my book on Amazon, Art The Church's Response.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I seen that, I seen your website on there, and you can also sign up for um, you have a place to sign, put your email in there, sign up on your website too, um, for anyone that's definitely interested in and learning and knowing more about that.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know as an artist myself, um I find um I'm I'm my biggest critic, I think, when I'm an artist.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all are to our our own.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um because sometimes to our own liking isn't isn't what other people like.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um as an example, when we opened up our bookstore in our art gallery, I had a painting that I took in there and I didn't I didn't like it at all.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was black and pink and white, and it was a big painting, and I was like, I was gonna I was gonna paint over it.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna redo it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I had it sitting in the studio because I was gonna, I was gonna be one of the very first paintings that I was gonna paint over because I didn't like it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um my daughter's um partner came in and he said, Um, wow, that painting is amazing.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, it's not.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Yeah, he's like, Are you gonna sell that?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to buy it.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he that was the our first big painting that we sold, and it was the one that I didn't like, you know.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's funny because you know, as I teach art, um, I'm learning from my students as much as they're learning from me because I like, you know, I I get them involved in the creativity and picking out the colors and what what what technique would they like me to try and show them.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: But um sometimes I'll I'll I'll create a piece and I just really don't like it.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, they'll say, No, it looks great, and I'll be like, it's okay, if you guys really don't like it, it's okay to say you don't like it because, you know, and they're like, No, only you don't like it, you know.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: But um, and that's just that learning curve of being, you know, your own critic, you know, when you're creating your own um your own um art.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a lot of fun, but I I like watching my students create art and seeing what they come up with, especially what when they do it for themselves and they realize how much fun it is, because you really can't mess up with uh fluid art, you know.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: It may not be exactly the way you want it, but um you always can make something masterful, you know.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe everyone can be an artist.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: We we have kids from a really young age.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think our youngest child that came in was I think six, that came in with his mom and painted.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, they were surprised that we allowed him to paint.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, he's gonna have so much fun.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna just so much fun.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And they're usually the cheering squad, actually.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones that give all the oohs and the ahs, and it's so exciting when they're watching because they haven't seen it before.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I love I love art, I love creativity, and I like churches that support it.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's important that churches um not pick and choose their congregation and who they support, you know.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think Jesus loves us all, and um uh we need to look at that as a you know, factor that in, where some churches are kind of um I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I feel like sometimes they're really kind of stiff-necked as to what they allow and don't allow.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: But then then it's basically they're picking and choosing the people that they want in their seats, you know.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've gone into churches where you can see where they're all just sitting there and you know, like they look like zombies and they're afraid to they're afraid to worship, they're afraid to move, they're afraid to they just sit there and I'm like, is this church or are we at the funeral? 'Cause I don't know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I don't know what's happening here.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't feel the Holy Spirit when you you feel impressed, you know, and I mean not impressed, but imposed upon that you can't be who God wants you to be.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, He designed us to stand out and He equipped us already.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's our equipper.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell people you are already equipped with everything you need if you have God.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just I want to encourage everyone that's listening today, and um I'm I'm thankful that you you love to still do art.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that you you bring that up and you talk about um the effect that it has with churches, and and I definitely agree with you.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: I do not believe that there's anything demonic about art.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe it can be anything in the world can be used for good or bad.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Anything exactly so I get where some people can miscue it and be like, oh, you know, art is art that's that can be demonic.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: But anything can be demonic, you know.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um um, but it but it's you might like my definition of art.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is an expression of our humanness.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that's really good.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love that actually.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that we should have the right to express ourselves, you know, artistically.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I kind of wish I think the world would actually be even a better place than what we already live if if everyone just was able to express their creativity, you know, you know, to a degree.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you think about one of the greatest composers that ever lived was Bach.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the influence that Bach had on music itself changed music where it developed into the modern form that we understand today.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like that under Bach.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it changed and developed.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: If we were all at that level where what we did was so deep and impactful that it changes the nature of the craft itself, then what would our world be like?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be very interesting.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we're so we would all be walking in the gifts that God has given us.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's essentially what when we get to heaven what will be happening.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't wait actually for that because it's gonna be exciting to see people that you know you know that aren't using their gifts here, but when they get there, though they will be.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, it's important that we understand that that we are created in his image, you know, um, to be creators.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I that's a great analogy too that you used in the very beginning.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: But so for all of our listeners, if you want to learn more and um read Art, the Trish's response, um, go to Amazon.com.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the book there.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like Rick said, and then um you I'll put in the show notes all of your information, your website, all of that information will go in there so they can find all of that information as well.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they can uh reach out.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you still doing coaching at this time or are you just writing right now?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh right now I'm writing.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm open to coaching when the opportunities come up.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to make sure before I put that out there, so uh for anybody that that is listening, if they you know felt led to to reach out to you because they want some coaching, um, I wanted to make sure you're you were still you were still doing that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: So and um how many books are you working on right now?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm what I oh excuse me.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: The so what I'm doing on subsc all the articles I'm going to be probably compiling into a series of books called the Books on Art I Wish I Had.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've I've just kind of started thinking about um doing a book on beauty, so I'm still kind of thinking about it.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the name of my art company, the beauty of art.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I so I'm thinking about you know what is beauty, and then um so I'm just kind of saying some of my ideas right now.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just starting to write it down.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um like definition of beauty.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I see beauty itself is um spiritual in nature, and that's why it's so hard to define.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and then um I think I'm thinking of kind of doing a look at different philosophers through the ages, like from Plato on, um, some of their takes on beauty, just kind of give the the background of it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm that's some of my ideas so far.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: I so it's enough that so it'll probably be a couple years of kind of research, yeah, just to try to find all because that's such a vast subject that I want to give it, you know, what it needs and not just rush something.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sounds like it'd be really good though.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd definitely be interested in and reading that myself.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um, of course, you know, because we we we o we own a bookstore, so we love all kinds of books.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I love books about art as well, um, whether it's photography or or um um my daughter's an artist, she's 16, um, she's a comic book artist and she's amazing um in anime and manga.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's kind of end of writing, you know, drawing like that kind of style.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um but she's really good at she can look at your face and in like 10 minutes draw a portrait of you, like just really quickly.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: She's really good at at portraits.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she can't take a picture and draw a pi a portrait from a picture because she said it's not lifelike enough for her to draw.
• 50:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: I find that really interesting with her as as an artist.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: A photograph is flat, that's true.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: So she said I can't I can't draw it because I don't it's lifeless.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it makes sense, you know, how she does it.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because she she has to see the depth, you know, in the in a person's face, whatnot.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: But anyhow, um, well, I thank you um for coming on and and having a great conversation.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm glad you shared with us um uh about your book and your art, and thank you for your testimony and everything that you have brought to the table today.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's been wonderful talking with you.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I will let all of our listeners know where they can find you, where they can reach you.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and as far as crushing strongholds goes, um uh you can reach me at crushing strongholds.com for um prayer for anything.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you need any type of prayer, just message me.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: I will be glad to pray with you or pray for you.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um again, I offer free clarity calls for um crushing strongholds for anybody that's um facing obstacles of fear, depression, anxiety, uh, rejection, abandonment, um, any of those types of strongholds that you're just struggling with, just reach out to me and and and let's have a conversation.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, but Rick, I just want to say thank you so much for for coming on and and um having a conversation.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was wonderful.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I've enjoyed it.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward for your books to your books to come out.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I will go check out um um your your art, the church's response.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want to check that book out.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, come by and see me.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're local with each other, so yeah, you can come and come over to the bookstore and say hi anytime.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh I'd love to see some of your art as well.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll definitely be looking up some of that that um after we get done talking.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: So but I want to say thank you.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: And do you have anything you want to say to our listeners in closing today?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd say be creative because that's part of who you are.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: You are creative because God put that in you.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: So be creative.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, create.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great, great ending to a great conversation.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, to all of our listeners, we uh thank you again for being here and listening.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you like, follow, and share.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, don't be afraid to give us your two cents.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love to hear what you guys have to say in response to um this episode, and we're glad that you participated.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we just hope and pray that you have a great day.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, all of you take care and God bless.