Latest / Ridiculous History / Ottoman Harems Were Disturbing and Ridiculous, Part Two: A Real-life Game of Thrones

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Ottoman Harems Were Disturbing and Ridiculous, Part Two: A Real-life Game of Thrones · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. This is part two of the Ridiculous
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: History of Ottoman Empire. Harems and uh, this is the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: part where we do a disclaimer. Our our go to
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  Speaker 1: Guy Max the Sultan. Williams, our super producer, has returned
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: from Adventures Abroad. You are here, I'm Ben Bowling, you're
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Nold Brown kis I Yeah, we've got We've got a
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: disclaimer here because this episode in particular talks about out
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  Speaker 1: some very disturbing things that were normalized practices, but they
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  Speaker 1: are part of history and should not be forgotten.
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  Speaker 2: And I think we actually offer a couple of warnings
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  Speaker 2: within the episode itself, So if this is not something
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: you want to hear about, you should have every opportunity
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: to hit that thirty second. I don't think we talk
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: about it for more than you know, to two or
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  Speaker 2: three minutes. Yeah, it is about genital mutilation.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah there, just to put it out there, and then
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: also you got to promise here as the research associate
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: for this episode, I think I did an okay job
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: not just talking at length about my dumb little novel.
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  Speaker 3: Are you kidding? I think you mentioned it once and
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: then you like walked it back. But I'm excited.
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  Speaker 2: I read the first couple of paragraphs at least, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: and I thought it was beautifully written. Frankly, I got
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  Speaker 2: to be honest that when I was editing part one
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  Speaker 2: of this series, I was like, Okay, where's the novel?
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  Speaker 3: And you didn't talk about the novel?
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  Speaker 2: And I was, well, but you linked to it in
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  Speaker 2: the dock and did he talk about it at some
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  Speaker 2: point a little bit us. It's really good, Ben, that's
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  Speaker 2: really poetically written. And it was like you're describing a
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  Speaker 2: sort of era that's like this, but you're you've got
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  Speaker 2: new things that are in there, like new creatures and
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  Speaker 2: new terms, and you're it's It made me think of
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  Speaker 2: like Anthony Burgess and clockwork orians. The way you were
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  Speaker 2: immediately creating this cool lexicon. I thought it was really smart.
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  Speaker 2: I'm excited to read more.
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  Speaker 1: Gosh, that makes my day. No, seriously, thank you, man.
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  Speaker 1: That might be the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I've got more where that came from. Let's jump
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  Speaker 3: right in, folks.
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  Speaker 1: And there's also a very why. One thing people sometimes
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  Speaker 1: I think forget about the Ottoman Empire is that there
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  Speaker 1: was a lot of diversity because it was a big operation,
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  Speaker 1: and so the Harem is a microcosm of that. The
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  Speaker 1: Harem has people drawn from the Caucus, from Africa, the Balkans,
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  Speaker 1: so there are a lot of unique cultures coming into
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  Speaker 1: mixing together here. And the Sultan did have legal wives,
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  Speaker 1: but he wasn't always romantically interested in them. The concubines
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  Speaker 1: the mistresses might just be there for romance and reproduction.
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  Speaker 1: He might have wives that he barely talks to because
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  Speaker 1: they're just there to cement and alliance. They're like paperwork
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  Speaker 1: for him, which sounds you speaking to sounding callous and
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  Speaker 1: gold And you know, in many cases the wives were
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  Speaker 1: probably not super jazzed to hang with the sultan either.
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  Speaker 1: They just went to live in a really nice cage.
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  Speaker 3: And getting back to the machinations.
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  Speaker 2: Within the machinations, we know the politics of game of
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  Speaker 2: thronesy type stuff involves a male air often, you know,
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  Speaker 2: that is sort of the name of the game. And
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  Speaker 2: we also know that for the longest time in history,
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  Speaker 2: you know, let's think of old Henry the Eighth right,
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  Speaker 2: the idea of like, if you couldn't produce a male
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  Speaker 2: air for me, then you were of no use to
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  Speaker 2: me and I will have you be headed. But it
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  Speaker 2: turned out that it was the male contribution to that
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  Speaker 2: union that is actually what generated the male air. So
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  Speaker 2: it is Henry's fault the whole time. But this all,
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  Speaker 2: this emphasis placed on generating a male air. You know,
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  Speaker 2: people have lost their lives over this for generations without
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  Speaker 2: because of this lack.
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  Speaker 3: Of understanding behind the science of it.
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  Speaker 2: It's all it's very looking back on it with hindsight
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  Speaker 2: in that perspective, it looks just it seems utterly ridiculous.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.
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  Speaker 2: Sorry to that point though, the mothers often would you know,
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  Speaker 2: be a little more deferential to their own sons because
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  Speaker 2: they were kind of grooming them to maybe be the
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  Speaker 2: next sultan. Right, so there could be more political maneuvers
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  Speaker 2: within maneuvers.
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  Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna tell you man, there's some Sith lord
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  Speaker 1: aspects to it, right, like, oh yeah, I'm raising you
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  Speaker 1: is my apprentice together the empire so far beneath the
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  Speaker 1: control of whatever we're saying instead of Sith exact. So
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  Speaker 1: this also we also know look slavery is terrible. There
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  Speaker 1: are as a function of the expanding human population, which
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  Speaker 1: has been going like gangbusters for a while. They're more
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  Speaker 1: slaves alive now than at any other single point of history.
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  Speaker 1: But and check out our stuff. They want you new
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  Speaker 1: episodes on this. But slavery is not always the same
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  Speaker 1: type of social mechanism. It's always horrible, but it differs
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  Speaker 1: depending on geography and time. So in the Ottoman Empire,
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  Speaker 1: slavery is kind of complicated.
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  Speaker 3: Like the.
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  Speaker 1: Janissaries, they're this elite fighting squad and they were originally
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  Speaker 1: formed through slavery. The Ottoman Empire would go around and
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  Speaker 1: the Balkans and other Christian areas and they would force
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  Speaker 1: people to give up their children, their Christian children. They
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  Speaker 1: would make those kids who are slaves, these child slaves,
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  Speaker 1: convert to Islam and then be drafted into this slave
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  Speaker 1: army of the.
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  Speaker 2: Otto child soldiers, right, I mean, that's absolutely a thing
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  Speaker 2: we've seen in more recent history too, like in parts
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  Speaker 2: of Africa.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Like there was a film I believe called the Oh gosh,
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  Speaker 2: it was Kerrie Fukunaga's first film, Beasts of No Nation.
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  Speaker 2: I want to say it was all about child soldiers
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  Speaker 2: in all rwandas. I can't exactly remember the details, but
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  Speaker 2: it is painfully part of very recent history. If not,
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  Speaker 2: I mean certainly likely to still be going on in
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  Speaker 2: some parts of the worlds.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. Here's what happened in the Janisaries, though,
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  Speaker 1: just like the Templars, they became a powerful political force
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  Speaker 1: all their own. In fact, they became the first modern
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  Speaker 1: standing army in all of Europe. So eventually the Janis series,
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  Speaker 1: despite being slaves, were more powerful than members of the public.
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  Speaker 1: And then slaves pressed into service at the Harem also
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  Speaker 1: did have as we were talking about this the entirety
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  Speaker 1: of this episode, they had this limited agency to pursue
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  Speaker 1: power that would not be accessible to the majority of
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  Speaker 1: the empire. And usually when you go to in a
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  Speaker 1: weird way, man, these poor kids who had to go
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  Speaker 1: to the Harem were kind of going to private school.
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  Speaker 1: They learned sport, behavior, mathematics, dancing, literacy that they would
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  Speaker 1: they would may not have been taught.
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  Speaker 2: That's why it's also complicated because on the one hand, yes,
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  Speaker 2: you cannot leave. It's like the Hotel California, you know,
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  Speaker 2: time vibes, but like you, you're getting the best of
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  Speaker 2: the best in terms of education, in terms of access
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  Speaker 2: to culture, in terms of access to political power.
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  Speaker 3: You know, like, you really are in.
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  Speaker 2: This very isolated yet privileged position, but yet can we
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  Speaker 2: really call it privileged if you were forced into it?
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  Speaker 2: But yet compared to the alternative of what life outside
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  Speaker 2: of those walls might have been like, and the survival
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  Speaker 2: rates and the potential of starvation or whatever, you know,
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  Speaker 2: all real things to weigh when thinking about what was
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  Speaker 2: best for the individual, Right, I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this well said. I would say the
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  Speaker 1: key thing is, yeah, one person might prefer the safe,
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  Speaker 1: secluded existence. One person might prefer the normal path of
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  Speaker 1: public life. But the key is they need to be
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  Speaker 1: given a choice to do so, you know what I mean,
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  Speaker 1: not just walked into a place when there's cold, And
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  Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most difficult things. Also, look,
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  Speaker 1: if you were good at the lessons you were being taught,
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  Speaker 1: you might not end you might technically be a concubine,
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  Speaker 1: or you might just end up being a common servant,
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  Speaker 1: and they might say, hey, the Sultan doesn't seem romantically
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  Speaker 1: interested in you, but you were super good at accounting.
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  Speaker 1: Do you want to manage some of the money for
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  Speaker 1: the harem, and then people would jump at that because
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  Speaker 1: now it's.
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  Speaker 2: A civil position, that's right, Yeah, which protected you know,
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  Speaker 2: you got yourself a government job at this point. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: god knows that's going ahead in the future, but we
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  Speaker 2: know in the past that comes with some protections.
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  Speaker 1: So what we're saying is, again, not every woman in
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  Speaker 1: the harem interacted with the sultan at all as a
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  Speaker 1: matter of fact, because you know, it's one guy. Again,
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  Speaker 1: there's so many people in the harem. If he took
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  Speaker 1: someone to bed, once they became newly elevated, they technically
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  Speaker 1: became a more official part of the household and they
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  Speaker 1: got invited to live in the good part of the harem,
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  Speaker 1: like harem premium.
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  Speaker 3: Downstairs type situation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just so, And that's where you live with the
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  Speaker 1: sultan's wives and relatives. And this is where we see
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  Speaker 1: some of the mean girl stuff coming in or some
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  Speaker 1: of the acrimonious behavior, because the wives and the relatives
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  Speaker 1: are often not thrilled about the new girl moving.
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  Speaker 2: In, but in the presence of the sultan, they got
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  Speaker 2: to put on a happy face. But when the Sultan's
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  Speaker 2: not around, there might be some pretty gnarly mean girl
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  Speaker 2: type sniping and bullying and burn book.
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  Speaker 4: Type and sometimes people not even ye point, sorry I'm
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  Speaker 4: talking about the burn book, but you know, you go
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  Speaker 4: as far as like literal murder of you know, your
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  Speaker 4: sexual or political or just someone who you perceive is
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  Speaker 4: getting more of the Sultan's attention than you rival, right, right.
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  Speaker 1: And then also you know, it's an ugly thing to acknowledge.
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  Speaker 1: But while we don't have a specific example here, it
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  Speaker 1: is statistically inevitable that some of these people having their
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  Speaker 1: agency removed may have chosen to take their own lives.
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  Speaker 1: And it's just it's a reality of the terrible things
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  Speaker 1: that can happen when people are forced into an unnatural
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  Speaker 1: life that they did not agree to live. And this, okay,
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  Speaker 1: so look we see there are a lot of moving parts.
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  Speaker 1: And obviously we are not members of the Ottoman Empire.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, sleeping.
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  Speaker 3: Dog Ben, you're secretly a member of the.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, on record, you notice how I never you never
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  Speaker 1: see Max and the Sultan in the same place.
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  Speaker 3: Max does have very sultanly vibes.
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  Speaker 1: He's always telling me that.
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  Speaker 2: Sweeping his hands you know here for this one.
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  Speaker 1: Uh So we are also not native Turkish speakers, So
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  Speaker 1: apologies in advance for any any mispronunciations here, but no,
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  Speaker 1: we thought would be cool right to talk about some
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  Speaker 1: of the positions you could attain in the in the Harem,
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  Speaker 1: so Odalisk is our starting point, right for a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people that you want to become what's called the
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  Speaker 1: ghost Day the Favorite. But it's like playing King of
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  Speaker 1: the Hill because the ghost Day one year might not
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  Speaker 1: be the Ghost Day the next year.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, Yeah yeah, I mean this isn't the same
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  Speaker 2: eras it's more of a I think Victorian England kind
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  Speaker 2: of version of this type of political maneuvering. But there's
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  Speaker 2: a really excellent Yugoslanthemus film called The Favorite that is
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  Speaker 2: just an excellent example of this type of court intrigue
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  Speaker 2: and the types of things that happen when you have rivals,
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  Speaker 2: and its very much is a harem type situation. But
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  Speaker 2: it's an absolutely remarkable, exciting, sexy, funny, fucked up film
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  Speaker 2: and I highly recommend anybody checking it out if this
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  Speaker 2: type of thing is of interest to you. Next, we
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  Speaker 2: have the Ikbal or the Fortunate, which is a favorite
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  Speaker 2: concubine that gives birth to that covened male air. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Now they might be on the way to run in
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  Speaker 1: things and then via the male air right, via the
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  Speaker 1: male air, yes, like the regents.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So then there's a group these you could maybe call
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  Speaker 1: these the mean girls, the Cadin, the favorite women of
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  Speaker 1: the Sultan. They have privileges like specific servants, specific units
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  Speaker 1: that only work for them. They have their own separate apartments.
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  Speaker 1: They are in terms of privilege, they're very close to wives.
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  Speaker 1: There's still a notch down, but they're on the way.
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  Speaker 1: And of course if they give birth to a male air,
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  Speaker 1: it's game on. One of the best examples of a
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  Speaker 1: slave girl who goes from the position of odalisk to
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: running stuff is a Ukrainian slave girl named rock Salana.
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  Speaker 1: She overcame great odds. People tried to kill her repeatedly,
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  Speaker 1: but she ultimately ascended to the position of the most
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  Speaker 1: powerful empress of the Ottoman Empire.
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  Speaker 2: It was possible famously committed to song by the excellent
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: eighties post punk band The Police. Yeah read the lyrics
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  Speaker 2: and their hit rock Soalana you don't have to put
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  Speaker 2: on the red light.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. She was the chief consort of Ottoman Sultan Suliman
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  Speaker 1: the Magnificent. She remains one of the most powerful, powerful
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  Speaker 1: female political figures in the entire history of the Ottoman Empire.
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  Speaker 3: Was she ascend through the harem? Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: She started as totally yeah, and she became She is
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  Speaker 1: perhaps the most iconic member of that period of time.
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  Speaker 1: We described the reign of women the salt to day
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  Speaker 1: to way.
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  Speaker 3: There you go call back and yeah, I'm sorry, I
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: didn't mean to interrupt. I just the idea of them
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  Speaker 3: becoming a literal empress.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that that is sort of the end goal of
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  Speaker 2: this type of political climbing, of this maneuver. This is
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  Speaker 2: sort of like the best possible outcome. And I'm sorry,
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  Speaker 2: I can't. I can't help but think that maybe the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: police were aware of this figure in Rosan Rock Salana.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Maybe not sting contains multitudes. It's a great song, It stuck.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: It really is a killer song. I love the way
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: the downbeat or the drum. It's like a reggae beat
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: where the kick drum is where the snare would normally fall.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Sorry not to get nerdy about it, but it's if
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: you really listen to it. For the verses, it's kind
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: of hard to count. It's a little bit of a
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: tricky rhythmic kind of polyrhythmic thing.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: And there's a I don't know, there's some poetry to
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: its absolute body line.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: What's ben? What's the police drummer's name?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Stuart Copeland's right, Yeah, Sun excellent Pobaly rhythmic genius, that
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: guy love him.
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  Speaker 1: And speaking of geniuses, if you become an impress, a
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  Speaker 1: favored wife, then your next step what do you do
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  Speaker 1: after that?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Where do you go? Now?
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Where do you go? Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: You become the valid or valid sultan?
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  Speaker 3: Uh.
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  Speaker 1: This is usually the wife or concubine of the sultan's
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  Speaker 1: father who has risen to an exalted position in the Harem.
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  Speaker 1: And everything is so secret. This lady is plugged it.
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  Speaker 1: She's basically the director of the cia for the Harem.
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  Speaker 1: She knows everything that happens, She green lights everything. Nothing
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  Speaker 1: moves without her knowledge or permission. And if you are
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: a young slave girl brought into the harem, you immediately
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: need to kiss this woman's butt because you might die.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Is that almost like the Master of Whispers in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Game of Thrones?
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But again, now we're gonna we're gonna get into
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: what that character was as well, which is sort of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: a combination of two of these things.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Wait, virus. That's his name, right, Yeah, yeah, of course
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: his little birds.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: But he was a unit.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's his name. I'm thinking I've got
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the role now, you know. Yeah, that was it.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: That's where that was his name of the bald guy.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I see it.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: It's a Varis.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: It's Varius. Sorry, George, George r R. Martin, don't r.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: R stand for by the way, I've always wondered and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: never cared enough to look it up.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm gonna keep not knowing. I
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: want to go on like the mystery. Also, George, don't
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: don't look it up and hack it. I see you
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: thinking about it. Don't look it up better than not know.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: George, don't use me as an excuse to stop writing
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Winds of Winter. Man. I'm sorry, it's happening. I'm keeping the.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Faith some pages. We know it exists, at least in part.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: You know, we'll see what happens.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I've had some very strident conversations with their Pallor and
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Vogelbaum about this, which are maybe not fit for the
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: air on a family show.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But she's a little bit of a George hater, isn't
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: she No, she doesn't like Stephen Kane that sense. That's right,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: which is fair at times, you know, but unfair at
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: other times.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I guess, man, I've had some nice interactions with him
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: on Twitter. He's super into dad jokes.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Now, of course he is.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: He's the ultimate dad now that it was this ever
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: since he quit Ben's drinking and cocaine, I think he
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: became a little bit more of a dad like human.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Probably this uh, this type of sultan, this this ultimate
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: position of ascension. This lady will play a heavy role
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: in her son's decisions as a member of the imperial court,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: and she kind of functions like a silent politician or diplomat,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: as you said, Master whispers. There is proof, historical proof
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: that in the court of the Ottoman Empire there was
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: a window that the sultan would sit by, and the
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: women of the harem would sit behind the window and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: they would listen to the discussions being made in court.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: And there are instances where the women would whisper to
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the sultan and say, oh, no, that's a bad move, Nah,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: don't ooh.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: I like them they're good.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Well, as we know in business and in politics and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: in whatever creativity, a lot of times just about being
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: in the room and being cool, being a cool hang,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: you know, and being able to like express an opinion
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: without coming off as being like trying too hard, you know,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: and like nobody likes to try hard. Nobody likes someone
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: that's clearly jockeying to improve their lot in life. But
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: if you're around and you're holding space with like some
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: powerful people, and you become, you know, part of the crew,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: and you say something that could well lead to serious
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: world shattering changes, you know.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you see this in people's jobs today. One
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: of the biggest most important things is just being in
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, and not paying a just being like I said,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: being a good hang, you know.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: And from the viewpoint of western eyes, we see there's
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: this orientalism, there's this other exoticism of the women in
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the Harem. But they were actually in many cases they
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: were more powerful and influential than the guys who were
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: writing about them in such condescending ways.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: That's maybe part of it too.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: There might have been a little bit of sour grapes,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you know, on the part of the the curators of history.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: But again we say that the power aspect, the access
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: to education, the access to all the finest of things.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it's so complicated
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: because it is still all the product of a decision
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: that has been removed from somebody. Speaking of removing things, right, people,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's time to talk about units.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Here is our second disclaimer, folks, this this is an
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: unpleasant thing. We've been talking about agency and choice. Eunuchs
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: are not not given choice or agency over what happens
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: to them, often at a very young age. Let's put
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: it this way. Imagine you are the sultan. You're hoarding
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: your wives, some of whom you never talk to. You're
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: holding your concubine, some of whom you've never even met,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and servants. You're holding it the way smou hoards gold
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: spout the dragon. You got one big issue. You're thinking
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to these people as your property because you're you know,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: you're running a slave empire. And so you say, I
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: don't want a bunch of I need security, but I
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: can't have a bunch of random dudes around my ladies.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, and women can occupy the administrative
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: roles sure and keep things, you know, running smoothly. On
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the ground, but they don't possess the you know, the
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: masculine type properties that we need to create the secure situation.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: What if there were a third thing? Now, what if
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: we could create a third thing?
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: What if we can loophole this Because a lot of
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, powerful people in theocracies spend a
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: great deal of energy figuring out loopholes, so they can
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: still say they're obeying the rules of their belief system,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: but in a way that benefits them. So in the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire, are then right, they just come, I love it.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I'm so into it in particular as you know. But
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the so in the Ottoman Empire, the Sultan finds himself,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: like he said, in a bit of pickle, and he says,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I also Islam also forbids me from my perspective of
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: having dudes around my female chattel and my wives. So
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: what if there's a third way? The third way? The
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: eunuchs slaves in charge charge of a lot of aspects
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: of the harem. They watch and they serve the female
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: members of the harem.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: They are.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: They're called eunuchs because they are born male, but they
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: are mutilated to varying degrees that would remove either their
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: ability to reproduce or their ability to engage in penetrative sex.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were different varieties of eunuch as well.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And the one term that I learned from that Escopus
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: article is sandali or clean shaven, which is this It
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: actually can be used to refer to also shaving of
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I believe, hair on genitals, but in this case it's
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: referred to a clean razor cut of the sex organ,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: the male sex organ, oftentimes with some sort of wooden
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: rod that's sort of stuck in up to a point
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: to guide where the cut happens, you know, because it's
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: barbaric and then charterized with boiling oil, and many did
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: not survive right this this you know, we know medical
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: science is not there wasn't exactly sterilized environments. You know,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: this could very well lead to a horrific infection that
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: would would take the lives of those.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: You hear it described by Varus in Game of Thrones.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: There's another type would be the removal of the scrotum.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: But still these are all very very terrible things because
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: they were meant and it's just an enormous waste too,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: because it was all meant to leverage a what the
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Sultan saw as a religious loophole. So now after this
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: traumatic mutilation and attack, these individuals, in the Sultan's eyes,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: you're not considered men. But they're half man and half woman,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: so they can enter the hair and they won't be
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: you know, there won't be a fox and the.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And we may have mentioned this, but just to double
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: down real quick, this often happens when they're before puberty.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Reading about this, just in more graphic detail than we
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: are going into here to hopefully spare you of, that
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: really makes me kind of clinch up in unpleasant ways.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's it's one of the worst, most unimaginable,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: abhorrent forms of child abuse, right on top of the
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: on top of the slavery.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And for the most weird form of sexual assault too
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: if you think about it. But it's one that not
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: only would stick with you psychologically for the rest of
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: your life, but actually physically, you know.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, and these these kids, when this stuff happens
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to them, they're already having a terrible time in life
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: because there they've often been captured and stolen from their
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: homes in a busy throughout the African continent, in the
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: jungles of Sudan. In Egypt, they're attacked or assaulted or
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: castrated during this trip and sold in the Mediterranean slave markets.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: And from all of this, they too can have a
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: path to power in Harem, which is just mind boggling.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: It breaks our social expectations in the West because they
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: serve as trusted messengers. They are, you know, like the
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the higher ranking eunuchs, especially the position of the kissler Aga,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: the head of the eunuchs.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: The chief White Unuch, I believe is another maybe a
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: translated version, but they have.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: The two, the white Unich and the Black Unich.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: But we had referred earlier to the idea of that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: one particular woman whose name.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Escapes me, rock I think it was maybe it was.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: There was another one that you said was that it
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: was the mother maybe who became the head of the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: valid correct.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: So that is sort of what the chief.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: White Unich was as well, this idea of the being
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: in charge of the palace bureaucracy and also being in
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: charge of the Palace School, which was a school specifically
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: for white Unis, and also just being an information.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: Filter.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: You know, you are a absolute gatekeeper, being able to
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, guide this information and knowing
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: everything about everyone.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the kissler Aga is the Black Unich. The
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: copy aga is sometimes called the Chief White Unich. So
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: think of it as like, like you said, the head
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: of administrative that would be our White Unich and kind
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of the head of security that would be our Black Union.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Got it, And you know, they have this amazing level
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: of power. They can spider along, they know how to
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: play with play the parkour buacracy. So you if you
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: are a new child enslaved and brought to the Harem,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: you have to kiss their butts too, And if they
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: don't like each other, you've got to be very careful
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: because either one of them could also have you killed.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: It's it's crazy, Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's wild boy.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: We've really spun quite the yarn here that story. It's
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it's it's all true. And we've mentioned the fact that
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: there is some complexity to the idea of like was
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: it better in the Harem or outside of the air,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: And we kind of have an interesting answer to that
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: when the Ottoman Empire fell, right, yeah, yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Because contemporary sources do seem to indicate that the mystery,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the purposeful mystery and secrecy of the Harem led to
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of embellishment, led to a lot of tall
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: tales because in the absences, in the absence of transparency,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: speculation thrives. And when, like you say, when the Ottoman
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Empire fell in nineteen oh nine.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Much more recently than I would have thought, Yeah, yeah,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: for the first time, the gates of the Harem were
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: opened to the world.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Women were set free. They could go back to their families,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: their relatives, their fathers and brothers, et cetera. And interestingly enough,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: according to proven historical records, there were members of the Harem.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: There were women who did not want to go back
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: outside of the cage because they said, you know, I
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: was poor before, you know, why do I want to
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: go back there. It's like that guy who wants to
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: go back in the matrix.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Under and you can there are two ways of looking
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: at that. One is that, sure, being rich maybe is
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: better than being poor, you know, objectively, if you're just
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: looking at pure mathematics.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: But you could also look.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: At it as a form of indoctrination and like Cultwood
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and Dockheims. Yeah, so I just I feel like it's well,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: it is an an answer to the question of was
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: it now Really it's not was it better? You know,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: because we don't really know exactly. I'm sure there were
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: abusive practices, you know that. It's depicted in this like
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: positive light in many and many accounts. But it's also
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's a darkness to the whole affair.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: After nineteen twenty six, the Turkish Republic, the successor of
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire, made polygamy illegal, and so the seclusion
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: of women became less popular. And obviously the current ruler
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: of Turkey or to God, does not have to our knowledge,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: an opulent empire or an opulent harem. You know who
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I think might have a crazy harem hidden away somewhere.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. He just seems like the type of.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: He does he does, and he seems like the type
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: that wouldn't want to share it with anybody.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: And thank you for taking this wild ride with us, folks. Uh,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: This again is endlessly fascinating period of history. No, I
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: think there may be some more Automan Empire episodes in
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the future. What do you say we get out of
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: the harem and get to some of the other stuff.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: I think, man, so to those episodes.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So we've gotta give Yeah, we've got a big, big
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: thanks of course, uh to our to our producer, mister
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Max Williams, and immediately to our special guest producer, Ben
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the Sleeping Dog Hacket. I'm curious, is give, asked Bet? Ben?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us how you got that that moniker?
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well it's it's kind of funny. It's it's
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: it's this thing. It's this record I'm working on. I
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: made a bunch of music while that's like real quiet,
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: because my I made it while my dog was sleeping.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to wake him up.
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: That's how I made an album of songs called Songs
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: for Sleeping Dogs and so's I can't wait to hear it.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, save thanks also, of course to Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to A. J. Bahamas Jacobs who reached out to us.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: We'll just see that photo Brandy took out that it
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: was good.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, super good.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, And I'm actually New York City bound
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: just after this episode, so I'm gonna try my head
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: up mister Bahamas as well. Huge shout to Jonathan Strickland
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the quizt.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: A happy birthday, Jonathan No Joe, Yeah, happy late days. Happy,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: but you know how we are with holidays on this show,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: so happy belated birthday.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Better better late than never. But also I.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Think Strict should be making an appearance on this show
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: or the very least stuff that I want you to
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: know in the very near future. But he's been having
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on his plate, so we've
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: been trying to not inundate him. But we are gonna
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: have to get him back very very soon.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Let's just say it for the people fell ridiculous historians.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: The Quistors new writer is insane, right, And I'm like,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: you are not the Sultan of podcasts.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Making us get a bigger clock, which we thought was
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: already like so much funny could possibly Yeah, I mean
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: it's it's absurd.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: If we didn't buy that stupid clock, we would be
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: a video podcast.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: We're working towards the larger clock.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: We're saving up forever, but once we it's worth it
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: to us. Though, guys, it's worth to us to get
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: the h though, is so much more chill with his rider.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: All he wants is like a bagel, a good bagel
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: like spread.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: You know, we can get a little sneering grass.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Big big Things. Also, of course, do Eves
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Jeffcoat on theme. Check out the podcast Big Big Things
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: to Chris Vrassiotis gave Lucier and Big Big Thanks to
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Noel Barcelona.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Brow Thanks Ben Ben Bowling. Bowling nailed it. We'll see
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: you next time, folks.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows