Latest / The Ultimate Intimacy Podcast / 225. Depression And Anxiety: How It Destroys Intimacy, And What You Can Do About It - With Dr Wyatt Fisher

Transcript

225. Depression And Anxiety: How It Destroys Intimacy, And What You Can Do About It - With Dr Wyatt Fisher · The Ultimate Intimacy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the Ultimate Intimacy Podcast, where we discuss how to find ultimate intimacy in your relationship.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: We believe that, no matter how many years you've been married, you can achieve passion, romance, happiness and ultimate intimacy at any stage of your life.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Join us as we talk to not only marriage experts, but couples just like yourself and people who are just flat out fun.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: The Ultimate Intimacy Podcast is for couples who have a good relationship but want to make it even better.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We are talking about how anxiety and depression affects intimacy.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: If I would have known how important this subject really was, I think this would be one of the first 20 episodes we would have done.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: It's been on our list and I think, because it's not something that we've suffered with in our marriage, we kind of push it to the side and don't realize how many people this is affecting, and so that's why we have a specialist professional on today to do this episode is because, I don't know, I think it's going to be really good and it's really really important because it's affecting a ton of marriages.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: And especially this time of year, two or five days depression, anxiety tends to go up.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I was going to say the last 30 days I've had some anxiety.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So, you're exactly right.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I mean just everything going on.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Before we jump in, let's read the poll answers, because I thought those were pretty amazing, and then we can jump into the discussion and go from there.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Yep, I just got to pull them up.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: So, as you know, we love to do polls.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: We really appreciate everyone that participate in the polls.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: It really gives a good sense of really how married couples and people are feeling out there and what's really going on, and so we were pretty surprised by this poll.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: But here they are.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: And this poll was probably one of our average polls.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I think a couple thousand people took this poll, and so I asked everyone do you or your spouse suffer from anxiety or depression?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: The husband or the wife?
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: And 32% said husband and 68% said wife.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: And then I asked whoops, hold on?
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: And then I asked does anxiety or depression affect your intimate life?
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: 80% said yes, 20% said no.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And then we asked in what ways does it affect areas of intimacy in your marriage?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: And those are some of the answers that we're going to go over through this podcast.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So, anyways, I just wanted to throw out those numbers that it's big, it's big.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: What are your thoughts as you hear those numbers from our audience?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Is that something you typically see across the board?
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: I think anxiety and depression can be very common.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: It's often connected to one of the personality traits of neuroticism.
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: The big five model of personality says we have these five traits.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: One of them is neuroticism, and each of them are 50% genetic and the other 50% is from our environment.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Growing up and by the time you hit adulthood your temperament is relatively forged.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: So one of those is neuroticism.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: So neuroticism says if you're high in neuroticism, it doesn't take much environmental stress before you start feeling anxious or depressed.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: That's if you're high in neuroticism.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: If you're low in neuroticism, it takes a huge amount of environmental stress before you start feeling anxious and depressed.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: So all of us are on that continuum.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Somewhere we're either low or in the middle or high.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: One thing just for hope is that research does show, though, on that neuroticism scale before your lifespan, the neuroticism number or score for you tends to go down, because the more life you experience, the harder you become, the more resilient you become on average over life.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: So things don't stress you out as much.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So I know there's a lot of people probably out there listening and wondering well, how do I know if I or my spouse suffers from depression or severe anxiety?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, what are the things that a person can look for to?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I guess maybe self-diagnose, so to speak, or know if that's something they have been struggling with?
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the depression side.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: The classic depressive symptoms are lack of energy, lack of pleasure, lack of joy, lack of drive.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: You just want to sit around all day, you don't want to get out of bed.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: You can start feeling hopeless.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: If it's really bad, you can start feeling suicidal and that's where it gets into the red zone.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: But yeah, you just feel kind of lethargic.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Some people get irritable.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: So you can also go that direction, especially with teens.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: Actually, with teens they don't present as much with feeling down, but they're more like irritable and agitated.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: But sometimes adults can get that way as well.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: So it's not necessarily just that you're feeling down.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: You could just become more grouchy and irritable.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: If you're feeling depressed, for anxiety that's more it depends on how it presents.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: You know, for a lot of people it's these physiological symptoms of like increased heart rates, racing thoughts.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Sometimes they can have like panic attacks, can't like relax, you know, intrusive thoughts, a lot of all or nothing thinking, a lot of catastrophizing in their mind.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's some overlap but it's definitely some differences also with the two.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no great points, and I know a lot of us.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: You know we naturally tend to believe, oh, if we have, if we're anxious about something or we're depressed about something.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: It's also important to note that that doesn't mean that you have depression or anxiety.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I think that through life, you're going to have certain periods of time in your life where you're anxious about things or, you know, based upon where you're going through, might have a period of life that you're depressed about things, and so you know.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's important to recognize that, on the flip side, that is a normal part of life that all of us are none of us are immune to and we're going to go through certain periods of time.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: And I guess how can maybe this is a weird question, but how can someone know if it's temporary or something more long term?
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: It depends on the level of impairment the symptoms are creating.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: And so if you're having some anxiety and you're still able to function, like in work or in your life, in your relationships, but you're struggling with anxiety, then that just might be something more temporary and not necessarily diagnosable.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Same thing with depression.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: If you're just having like some down days, you're just kind of struggling and feeling like you know happy about anything.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: You just feel kind of down.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: You know that's okay and that's normal.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: But when those down feelings get so severe you can't even go to work and you can't even you know function in your relationships.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: That's when it becomes more diagnosable.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: So that is important to remember that if you're having anxiety or depression it doesn't mean you would get diagnosed.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: It becomes diagnosable when it creates significant impairment and at least two domains in your life.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: So jumping into marriages with this whole thing we have.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: So I mean we got tons of answers like my spouse doesn't have the energy or the desire to make love anymore, or I mean we're looking like you're saying you're kind of get stuck on, I don't want to do anything, I don't want to get out of bed if it's bad enough.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: But what we notice with a lot of the comments is some cycle that starts and so one of the spouses has depression or anxiety, which affects their libido and their health, which affects the drive, and then one spouse that you know is not getting their sexual desires or emotional whatever, or just their love languages in general, their needs, met, they start feeling depressed because the marriage isn't where they thought.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: You know, it's just kind of the cycle.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: We kept reading these comments and like, oh my gosh, like you can see, how that one spouse is starting to feel depressed because their spouse is suffering from these things.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: They don't know what to do, or I don't know.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: It can really turn into this vicious cycle, so let's talk about that, I guess yeah.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would say both partners can have a role to play in that kind of dynamic.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: If you're on the other side of someone who's depressed, it is important to have a certain level of grace for a certain season.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: So similar, similar to if your partner, like, had surgery or had a significant illness, you probably wouldn't be agitated that they can't meet your needs because it's more of like a visible problem, right, like, oh, they had surgery, you know their knee, they got their knee replaced or they just had their appendix out or whatever.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: So it's more of a visible illness and so, like you automatically have more patients in grace.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: But with anxiety and depression is more invisible.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: It's like are you sure there's something wrong, like what's going on here?
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: I don't see anything.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: So I think it's a little harder to have grace and to have patience.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: But so on the if you're on the other side of someone with anxiety or depression, I think it's one thing to work on is just having grace and patience for a season while they're recovering, and trying to work at it, just like you would if they had surgery.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're the partner with anxiety and depression, it's very important to not just be passive about trying to get better.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: And that's where it can create resentment, because if you're on the other side of someone with anxiety and depression and you don't feel like they're taking any steps to work on it or to improve, then that becomes very frustrating very quickly.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: So if you're the one who has it, then it's important to make sure you're taking steps and putting some things in place that are going to optimize the chances for improvement.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Well, amy and I were having this conversation as well and I was, like you know, I'm a very optimistic and positive person.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: But if Amy, you know, was dealing with depression and was kind of shutting me out and we didn't have that emotional connection or that physical connection, I could totally see getting depressed and feeling, you know, not desired or wanted, and I can totally.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I never really thought of that till we started getting back all these comments of saying, well, their depression is making me depressed, and I was like, wow, I've never really thought of that but we've heard so many comments and just pretty incredible of how that can just you can see how that can just cause a ripple effect in the relationship and, you know, make things even more severe.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's important to try to approach it as a team, because it can become antagonistic very quickly, where the person on the other side of their partner who's depressed can start making it all about them, like, hey, what about my needs?
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Right, and then the other person feels like you're not sensitive at all, you're being selfish, it's all about you, I'm the one struggling with depression.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: But then if you're the one that's depressed, you know it's important to make sure, again, that you're doing your steps.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: But trying to approach it as a team, I think, can go a long way.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: So trying to turn toward your partner instead of turning inward or turning away from your partner because if you are depressed or you're anxious it is easy to turn away or turn inward but instead to try to turn toward and so that just means trying to open up and share where you're at, share what you're struggling with, share about you know where you're stuck and then, on the other side of that, as the other partner, trying to be empathetic and trying to provide support, and then developing some plans like, well, what can we do together that could help the anxiety, that could help the depression?
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Because then you can feel like you're a team trying to tackle this thing that's hurting your marriage.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: So it's more like a team effort.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: Instead of you're the problem you need to fix you.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: It's more like what can we do to fix this?
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I love it and I think you're exactly right.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: That's such a good approach.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: We have some depression in my family and also people that are, you know, close to us, and it is amazing to see how it really negatively impacts the relationships.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I mean from an outside person looking in.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: You look at it and you say, wow, you're financially set, you're healthy, you go down the list and you're like you have everything that most people in life would dream of having, and yet life is still so unhappy and so tough.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: And it just shows how real that is and the impact that it really does have on relationships.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is surprising.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I was reading the other day about Simon Cowell you know the famous, the judge, and he was saying how he has struggled with depression a lot during his lifetime.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: And it was the same kind of reaction like wow, you seem to have it all, you're wealthy, you're successful, you're famous, and yet you struggle with depression.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: And so it is interesting because some people it is more of a genetic, going back to the neuroticism scale, so he's probably high on neuroticism, most likely, which is partially genetic, partially your experience is growing up.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: I mean research shows the more neglect and abuse you experience as a young person growing up, the more it does predispose you to anxiety and depression and adulthood.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: And so often the roots are in our past on some level.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: And again, some people you can tell if it's an ongoing thing.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: If they're depressed more days than not for at least two years, then that's dysthymia.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: You know that's like the diagnosis of it is dysthymia.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: If you have a depressive episode that's where you can't get out of bed for at least two weeks and that's where you're suicidal and you're feeling hopeless.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: So that's more like a depressive episode, major depressive episode.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: But yeah, so it's interesting to tease apart, like what is the cause?
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: And there's several approaches that can help, right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: So one is based on just your relationships.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: So there's like a whole modality of helping people who are depressed.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: That says the higher quality your relationships become, the less depressed you're gonna feel.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: And so that could be one tactic like okay, well, what's going on with this person's relationships?
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Are they feeling like, do they have a lot of broken relationships or are they isolated?
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Are they feeling lonely?
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: All those things contribute to depression.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So then it becomes well, how can we help them get more connected and repair some of the relationships in their life or join new things to develop more friendships so they're not so isolated?
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Another approach is all of your thoughts.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: It looks at it's just cognitive behavioral therapy and that looks at what are you telling yourself?
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Because when you're depressed, often you feel like you're worthless, other people are worthless and the future is hopeless, right?
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: So if you have like this triage of how you view yourself, others in the future, and so tracking your thoughts and identifying, like, what are the negative core beliefs I have about myself At the core, people who are depressed often feel like I'm unlovable or I'm worthless or I'm no good.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Right, they have these negative core beliefs and things will happen in their environment and they think that's confirmation to this negative core belief.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: And so working through their negative core beliefs and healing that and changing that, that also can make a huge difference.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: So you pointed out that part of it could be genetic and part of it could be obviously just circumstantial, or or things from the past.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: What if you were to guess what?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: What percentage do you feel like could be genetic overall for people and what percentage do you feel like could be more circumstantial?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Or I mean, I know everyone's going to be different, but what?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: What do you kind of see is the as a generality, I guess, in your practice?
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's hard to say because you know that.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Going back to the research on the big five personality model neuroticism, all of the traits are roughly 50% genetic, roughly 50% environmental, so a little bit of both.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: But again, everyone's different on that scale.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: So the higher you are on neuroticism, either the more genetic predisposition you have or the more trauma you've gone through growing up, or both, right yeah.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: And the lower you are on that scale, which means you don't feel anxious or depressed very often.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: If you're low on that neuroticism scale, that means either you have a low genetic predisposition or you've had a really healthy upbringing, or both.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: My question would be for like spouses that they've been married a while, they knew what they were getting to.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Marriages went great and then all of a sudden something causes one of the spouse to get like a major depression and we hear that a lot, you know after childbirth, you know postpartum, things like that.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Or maybe it's amazing major surgery, surgery where the healing took longer and caused depression, or there's, like you said, circumstantial things that can cause things and all sudden you're like whoa, what just happened to my marriage?
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Right, like just boom.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: That affects that major negatively.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: If one spouse hasn't ever been through that before, that's got to be super, super hard to grasp.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Because I love that you said.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: When someone's healing from something like surgery or something that has happened to them, it's easy to be compassionate.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: But I could see in our marriage if it was all of a sudden to wake up one day and going through the stuff that I didn't understand it.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I'd be like what is wrong?
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: like I don't know, what to do right like you have so much to be grateful because unless you've been through that, you're like what's going on, like what is your advice for a spouse that's just kind of been all of a sudden side swipe with a spouse that's dealing with this and and I love you said being a teammate, but there's got to be a like a stage where it's just like really kind of ripping couples apart for a little while.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, and I would say that's actually the more hopeful scenario.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: The more hopeless scenario is if you're married to someone who struggles ongoing with anxiety and depression, regardless of circumstances.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: So if you are married to someone who is like doing pretty well overall, may have pretty good mental health, and then all of a sudden something happens and it's like a left turn, that's a more optimistic prognosis because that shows on average they're feeling pretty good, on average they have pretty good mental health.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: So if it's something just takes a left turn, you know it's really a matter of they may not even understand it either.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Actually you know, they may not know why they're struggling so much.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: But, like, postpartum depression is a good example of that, where something like that I mean anyone can do a lot of research to understand like, oh, this is what's typical and this is what's normal and this is probably what they're feeling and why.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: And I think it's always helpful to see a therapist or a coach to get educated on, like, is this normal?
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Is this not like?
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: What should we do?
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: How can we approach this as a team?
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: You know, how can we make sure we're tending to this together, sensitively, while also still tending to one another?
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: And what does that look like and how can we explore that?
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I think a lot of it is education on what's happening and how common or typical it is, and then recommendations on what to do about it, because that can create those ideas of what to do as a team yeah, exactly no yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: So, like for postpartum, if you both know like, oh, this is what's common, this is what's normal and this is what's recommended, then together, as a team, you can, you can proceed based on that information yeah, great, great information.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: So we we had a lot of our audience members submit questions and I think it'd be appropriate to maybe ask some of these questions and see what you know, recommendations or what responses you'd have to those.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And these were, I mean, these were these questions Amy and I kind of picked and were, you know, pretty much what most people wanted to know about, right yeah, they all seem to kind of be in the same category, so we picked.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, we had hundreds but we picked like six or seven, that kind of like accumulated for all the questions.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: But before we jump into that, I have my own question.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up what social media is doing to marriage to cause anxiety and depression, because I feel like a lot of depression and I could be wrong comes from the social media comparison trap and I really feel like it's wrecking a lot of relationships.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: So what are your thoughts on social media causing anxiety, causing depression and really wrecking intimacy yeah, yeah, I mean, it can come in a lot of different forms, right with social media, but that could be one.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this tendency to compare against how am I doing in life compared to how they're doing in life, and they seem to be so happy, they seem to have a perfect life.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: What's wrong with me?
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: So absolutely, you know, the more we're comparing.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because I read that Webster dictionary, the word you may have heard.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: This for 2024 is authentic.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: That's like the theme for 2024.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I think it speaks to what you're saying, which is a lot of us crave authenticity.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: We want to feel like we're not alone, that my life is messed up and so is yours, and that's okay, right, I just got done finishing one of my marriage classes and it was like this group of about, you know, five to ten couples and one thing they said at the end of it is right, it was so nice just to know we're not alone, yeah, and that we're not.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: We're not the only couple struggling with these common issues.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I think comparison can definitely increase anxiety and depression.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: You know, feeling like I was wrong with me.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Also, if you feel like you're, well, first of all, if you're on screens more than you are connecting with real people in real life, that can create more isolation, which leads to depression, absolutely so, so that can be a contributor.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: Or if you feel like you or your partner are more interested in the phone than they are in one another, then that can create marital stress, which can increase anxiety and depression.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean, if you look at the amount of screen time total, like Netflix, phones, everything there's a lot of connection there with how depressed people feel with how much they're on screens.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: And I've heard I've heard stats that we used to get the dopamine that we needed from our spouse but now we're getting it through swiping right and scrolling constantly and that addiction and we're losing that the healthy aspect of that that we should be getting from being intimate and being with our spouses, and that's got to be a really big cause.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, you know.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: That reminds me of the research around pornography, which says, you know, pornography is a super stimulus.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: Your brain's not Prepared for it, and so for those looking at pornography, it's, it's, it's super stimulus.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: So it's so novel, right, these, this onslaught of images and videos, that you get conditioned to that level of stimulation and then, if you try to turn to a real person, your partner, it pales in comparison, just because the novelty level is not the same, and that's leading to all sorts of issues.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: So it's a similar kind of similar kind of concept, right?
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: So looking at screens, create this dopamine, hit this rush, and then real life doesn't compare.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: So then we go back to the screens.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so true, and I think we've seen that a little bit in our Life and marriage as well.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: A couple years ago, I'm just like I don't like the way this makes me feel, so I'm gonna cut this out of my life.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And it was.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Comparing, like circumstances, houses, whatever you know.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, so we have a, we have the pray to homes in the area and we'd go see these major, massive homes and every time I'd leave I'd like you know, I want, that's my goal, right, like why can't I achieve that?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: And I Literally found myself like I don't like the way this makes me feel.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: So I'm like I'm not going to these anymore and I literally can feel a difference in my life, like I I don't I'm not craving something or desiring something or you know, even that may sound silly, but literally like that made a difference in how I felt, not comparing my life to others and being grateful for what I had and I don't need something else and and that's what social media is doing.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: You don't have to go to pray to homes anymore.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: You just swipe and you're like I don't have that, I don't look like that, I don't have you know, all those things.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, we talk about that all the time, but but yeah, getting off social media or taking anything out of your life, that's making you feel depressed or anxious.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I, we just have, we have more control than we think we do.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Right, like we literally just have to cut those things out.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: But it's really really hard when we're addicted to stuff, which it's an addictive world.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I think just increasing the awareness of, like, what might be contributing to my anxiety and my depression, like what am I feeding myself?
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: What are my habits, my behaviors?
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: That's probably contributing or making this worse.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: That's a first step, because sometimes there is low hanging fruit right Like oh, I need to stop Swiping on Zillow and looking at all these homes, I can't afford yeah right.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Or I need to like stop looking at my friend from high school who seems like he's happily married, and I wish I was.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: Whatever it is, yeah there's these low hanging fruit that we tend to like feed ourselves, things that are making ourselves feel worse.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: So gratitude, yeah, there's definitely a lot of merit and research backing it.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: That says you know, the more you cultivate contentment, gratitude that does lower anxiety and depression.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Also, exercise they say that 30 minutes of exercise is equivalent to one antidepressant pill.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Yep, getting out in green space and nature.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: That lowers anxiety and depression.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: So once a day, trying to get outdoors and just like sitting in green space, like in your backyard or go to a local park, getting sunshine at least 30 minutes a day of sunshine is essential, especially during the winter months when people have seasonal affective disorder.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: It's often because a lack of sunlight.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: So getting outdoors every day for about 30 minutes.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Also, research shows, if you volunteer with altruistic motives, meaning it's something you really believe in, that also lowers anxiety and depression, because you're serving and you get out of your head right, because when your anxious and depressed you get self-absorbed, yeah, and so being able to serve and help others gets you out of your own little orbit.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I love that last sentence.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought those up, because those are things that people can do pretty easily and I would.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I would guess that the majority of people that are feeling depressed Probably you're not doing a lot of those things right.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: They're probably not getting out and exercising and doing the things that you just mentioned.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: So those are easy things that can be done and absolutely make a difference and especially serving.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I love that you said that, because getting out of your own little shell is Huge oh yeah, I always tell my kids, that I'm like when you're on, your depressed or sad, I'm like, just go serve somebody.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: It changes everything for both of you, right?
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because he's gonna think we have a horrible yeah, and our life is terrible and I'm terrible.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Then you go serve at a homeless shelter and you're like, oh my gosh, my, I have nothing to complain about, yeah, this person's going through, absolutely so it just yeah, we get.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: We get insulated with our own problems.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: And that's where they say you first world problems versus third world problems.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when you go serve in a battered shelter or a homeless shelter or someone who has it way worse than you, then it puts things in perspective.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Our son went to Africa and they were visiting villages that had never seen themselves in a mirror, they had never seen a TV, and some of them were had, didn't even have shoes, and he's like these were the happiest people I've ever seen and they didn't have anything.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And we're like.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: We're like, yeah, because they don't know what.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: They're missing in a lot, in a lot of ways, but again, they don't have the technology.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: They they're, they're their day-to-day is figuring out how am I gonna feed my family, how am I gonna survive?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: They're staying busy doing those productive staying busy.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: They're too busy worrying about Things that are important versus worrying about things that shouldn't matter.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly yeah, that's one of the best treatment recommendations if you're depressed.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Go on a missions trip.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: We're going some type of service trip in a third world country and it'll change your world.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, he came back a different person, so he's in.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Guatemala right now and Guatemala City and it's changing, because he's like I can't believe I ever complained about anything.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean, and yeah.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: It's pretty awesome.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: So let's jump into our questions for our audience.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, our first question is my wife never wants to be intimate because of depression.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: What can I do?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and we kind of talk a lot of these questions.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: That was like so many.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, what was the percentage?
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: It was like 70 a lot 70% said the wives were the ones that had the depression.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So yeah, what's the first step?
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the first step is being empathetic toward your partners inside your depression, so you're not coming off as judgmental and it's all about my needs.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: So being empathetic and supportive first.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: And then I would say second is brainstorming together Like what can we do as a team to help with this?
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: And so that might mean, hey, maybe we can get outside and start walking together every morning like, well, let's do it together.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: Maybe we could see a coach or a therapist together to see like how I can support even this journey.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe we need to get connected more socially so you don't feel so isolated.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: You don't feel so isolated if that's one of the causes for the depression.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: But again, I think it really you want to dig into what can we do to improve this?
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Because you know how.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: If that improves, then the intimacy is going to naturally start improving.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: If you're the one with the anxiety and depression, it's just really easy to coast because you get so inward focused and then you just like you feel like you have no energy to even try anything and then that's your side of it.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: So if you're a married person and you're Tripled with anxiety or depression, it's your responsibility to make sure, ethically, you are taking steps to try to better yourself and try to improve, because otherwise You're just kind of loathing in your feelings and then neglecting the marriage and then that's not going to fly for very long.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as your, as long as your partner feels like you're trying, that can go a long way.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: The moment you feel like your partner whose, anxious or depressed, is not trying to get better, that's when grace goes out the window.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a good point and that's I think of if I was really suffering with that and I'm kind of having like no hope to get, I just don't have that desire to even get up.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: That's kind of where you have to just like force right.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: You're like I can literally force myself to get outside and do some of these things and and, like you said, as a partnership, hey, babe, let me help you, let me pull you out, let's, let's do this together, yeah.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: That's right Cause then it's like a body double experience where, when you are really down, the things you need to do is what you have the least energy to do.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, so it creates this catch 22.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: But if your partner is on board trying to be supportive and you're going to approach it as a team, they can be that strength when you are weak.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Right, they can be that.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: They can be that encourage or like hey, I know you don't want to get out of bed and go for a walk, but we got to do this.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: This is so important for both of us yeah, it's important for both of our health, and so they can be that energy and that structure and that momentum when you don't have it yourself.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great answer, all right.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Question number two my spouse is constantly Worrying about things, even during sexual intimacy, because of the severe anxiety.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: So a couple things I would say with that one would be Uh, don't just rush into intimacy when your brain is going haywire.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: Um, so you first, if you know, like, oh, tonight's the night like every Wednesday or whatever, if you know it's like your, your special time for physical intimacy, then make sure you're having some self-care before you even approach the bedroom.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Um, so that could include Maybe I need to exercise and burn off some of that anxiety.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Maybe I need to go spend some time in nature, maybe need to focus on my thoughts with all this what if?
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Thinking because that's what drives anxiety Like what if this, what if that?
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Maybe I need to do some cognitive behavioral on my thoughts to lower my anxiety.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Practice some deep breathing exercises.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: But some prep and self-care can go a long way, because then you're entering in the bedroom at a different head space and you're more relaxed, you're more centered In the moment.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: If you find yourself like your head's going toward oh, I gotta make those Christmas cookies or oh, I still have those presents to wrap or whatever.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: And here we are in the middle of our escapade.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Um, one of the best things you can do in the moment is bring your focus back to your body.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: So what is my body feeling right now?
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: What is my body desiring right now?
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: Where do I want to be touched next?
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: How do I want to be touched next?
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: Um, because it's a difference between focusing on the there and then versus the here and now.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: So it's bringing it back to the here and now, and that's one of the most powerful ways to do it.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: It's focusing on what.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: What are the sensations I'm feeling on my body?
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Where am I feeling it?
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Where do I want to be touched?
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: How do I want to be touched?
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And the more you focus on that, the more it will keep you in the present.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, love it.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: You'll hear that a lot of these questions are obviously connected to sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Um so, anyways well, yeah, that's that's.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's who our audience is right, yeah.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I, and, and that's what they're, that's obviously what they're struggling with, but I wanted to ask this question.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: We we often hear how good um sexual intimacy, or even orgasm, is for Helping with anxiety and depression.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Is that something you, what are your thoughts on that?
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've heard that um being physically intimate and actually having an orgasm Could really help with depression and anxiety in certain ways.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Is that, what are your thoughts?
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think as long as, um, if you're the one with anxiety and depression, as long as you feel emotionally connected with your partner and as long as you feel like, if you have a positive association with sexual intimacy, um, then absolutely you know if you're moving forward.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: You know, even even skin on skin touch, yeah, releases oxytocin in the brain, which is that bonding chemical.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: So even starting there, like even if you don't feel open to sexual intimacy, but maybe you're open to just cuddling with just your, your underwear on right, so you maximize skin on skin, like that can create these endorphins in your brain and make you feel more bonded with your partner, so you're more partnering with them instead of feeling antagonistic with them, while you're sharing your heart with what you're both going through in life.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Um, all of that can create this kind of groundwork, um, to feel like, wow, we're, we're actually using physical connection and emotional connection as almost like a Ointment to help with the anxiety and depression, because it's soothing, yeah, and so definitely that can be helpful.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's great, great thoughts, um.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: The next one is the and we got a lot of these and and again.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: This is something I really didn't think of, but after people were saying it I'm like that is, that is 100.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: True, but Questions about how healthy spouses are getting depressed because of the lack of intimacy or connection from the depressed spouses.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Um, any any thoughts on that?
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, first of all, it makes sense, right, because when, when our knees are not being met, you know we can only withstand that so long, and then we start feeling hopeless ourselves and we start feeling like we're trapped in this marriage without my knees being met, and so that can be difficult, and I think the antidote goes back to what we've already mentioned, which is, first of all, practice compassion and practice patience.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: Just like your partner just had surgery, um, and then become supportive to your partner instead of antagonistic with them, through empathy, trying to understand what they're feeling.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Seek out support, you know, with a therapist or coach, as a couple, because it's a marriage issue.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah not just a individual issue.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Right, that's an important perspective.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: And then developing those solutions like what, what's causing this and what could help.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: And so then, if you both develop those ideas at what could help, now let's execute those together.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: So I'm not going to create a list of like 10 things I read about and hand you the list and tell you to go do them so you get better, because now I'm just trying to fix you.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: So my knees get met, yeah, right and that's not going to go over very well.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: But if I'm, but if I'm Partnering with you and journeying with you through that, then that's going to make you feel like we're I'm doing it for our best interest, your best interest.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: And again, if you're the other partner with the anxiety and depression, making sure you're taking the proper steps as as your side, to make sure you're doing all that you can to optimize your improvement.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wonderful, love it, love it.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I think, and I think all the questions that you know we pretty much got, basically we're under this.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: They were this man or this umbrella, and so, so everything you've said makes complete sense.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think there there are probably a lot of people out there listening that Are are getting a lot out of this episode and probably want to go to the next level.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: But uh, yeah, maybe in wrapping things up, how can our audience members oh, go ahead.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, I've got one more.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Oh, sorry.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Um, I think this was from a wife, but she's like my severe depression is causing less activity, which is causing weight gain, which is now causing me low self-esteem, which is causing me to not want to be intimate even more, which then causes more depression.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of women suffer with this because maybe after, after having babies, and the postpartum hits, or not even postpartum, but just the weight gain, and then the body confidence and that that can cause depression and then if you're not feeling confident in your, in your self-esteem has gone down.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I mean a lot of women pull away because they don't feel sexy anymore, which is just.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I mean here's a whole nother cycle, right, as we talk about cycles like Same same answer like you just got to force yourself out, get some exercise, you know, like yeah, for that one.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is a big issue regards to depression, right?
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Just body image issues, and do I feel comfortable in my skin?
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: And so a couple initial thoughts on that one.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: First of all, I think it's important to realize that a lot of husbands it's it's not so much about how your body looks, but it's more about how open you are to being free in the bedroom, with what you're doing in the bedroom, and so I would, if you're the one with feeling like you're overweight, talk to your husband and ask like is it more important to you that I look a certain way or is it more important to you that I'm open to experimenting in the bedroom?
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: And I bet you you know a lot of things say well, obviously, yes, I want us both to be our best versions of ourself with health.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: But it is more important I would imagine most husbands would say I would prefer if I had a pick between the two, that you would feel more comfortable and open to Experimenting in the bedroom, because that is sexy and that is arousing and that is feels like now there's adventure in the bedroom and we're changing things up and it's new and it's different and that can be free, because then for the woman it's like well, it's less about my body, like with how I look, it's more about my attitude in the bedroom and that my attitude can be sexy so my openness my openness can be sexy.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: My, my openness to experimentation can be sexy.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: So I think there's that's a really untapped approach for a lot of couples, because there's an assumption that if I gain weight, my partners no longer attracted to me and Now I don't feel sexy.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: But often that's just going on in one person's head.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: That's not.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: That's not confirmed with their partner, and even if they try to confirm it with their partner, they don't believe their partner and their eyes still don't believe what you said.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: And so, learning to trust your partner, ask them those questions and then believe them and try to trust what they're telling you.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: And then try and experiment, like, well, how about, for a week I'll try to just having a more open attitude in the bedroom and let's see how my partner feels, let's see what the reaction is.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: And To make it extra safe, you could always, you know, try dimming the lights or no lights.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: You know, that's another practical approach of if I'm having some body image struggles, what if we tried some intimacy with no lights at all and At least we're still connecting, at least we're feeling more comfortable in my skin and at least that could be a starting point while I'm Working on my health, to feel better about you know how I'm looking in my own skin.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: I love that answer because I think you're so right.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: If we were to take a poll, I bet like 99.9% of the men would just say I just want my wife to crave me and to be open to being intimate.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Like I love her for who she is and we hear that all the time in some of our polls Like I love my wife.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Like I don't care and I mean husband and their husband suffering with this too, you know, yeah, but I genuinely love who they are.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Like I married you not because of the way you look and and if, maybe if it's after birth.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Like I love you you just had my child.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Like I think us women are so much more harder on ourselves and what it really comes down to is, just, like you said, the attitude and a desire, so I love that yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: All right, I can keep asking questions all day.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: But I think I think we covered the gist of it.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I think that it's really just important to Just be a team, like you said.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Like if someone's suffering in the marriage, no matter what it is anxiety, depression, something else it's a marriage issue.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: It's something that has to be done together if you want to fix it like you're a team, right.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: And we talk, we talk about that all the time.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: You know solving problems and issues together as a team, and so I.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: I love that you continuously hit on that, because Naturally, when we're depressed or feeling isolated, we tend to try to do things individually, and Maybe we don't want to be a burden to our spouse or whatever, and that's the opposite of what we should be doing.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: So Love the hit on that and just the yep.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: And just to underscore, I think that the biggest pothole to watch out for, if you're the non-depressed partner, is Leading with judgment and agitation and frustration instead of compassion.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: And if you're the depressed partner, the biggest pothole to watch out for is I'm depressed and I'm just gonna coast and I'm not gonna do anything about it.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah so those are the biggest two potholes that are just gonna hit.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: You know the partners against each other.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, such great tips.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Well, you can see why we like dr Fisher so much.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can see how the wisdom that he has, how simply makes everything.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: If, if you are a couple that's struggling with this, we really recommend that you reach out to him.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: He can, he can help you greatly.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: So how can our, how can our listeners contact you and reach out to you and you know, set up times with you and you know take, take you to the next level.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Sure, the best first step, I would say, is my podcast, the dr Wyatt show.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Normally I put out about one podcast episode a week.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: They tend to be short, about 15 minutes.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm very practical, like five steps to this or six steps to that.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: So if you enjoy podcasts, check out my podcast, the dr Wyatt show.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: You also can find me on social at dr Wyatt Fisher, and my website is dr Wyatt Fisher dot com, and so all those avenues could be a great way to learn more and to connect.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: We can't thank you enough again for being on and just again sharing the wisdom that you have, and for all of you out there, we we're so grateful for your listening and all the support you provide us as well.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Amy and I feel very grateful to to be able to do this and, and, uh, just feel very blessed.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: So, um, until next time.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: We hope all of you find ultimate intimacy in your relationship.