Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / STA205 'Will AI Ever Replace Human Health Practicioners?' with special guest Jo Turner

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STA205 'Will AI Ever Replace Human Health Practicioners?' with special guest Jo Turner · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
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back into soft tissue therapy.
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Music.
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Hey people, how are you doing? Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, episode 205.
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How are you? my name is matt phillips i'm creative run chat
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live.com and as always this episode is being recorded live
0:29
on the sports therapy association youtube channel and
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facebook page if you're listening to podcasts and you
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like the idea of joining us live so you can ask our guests questions directly
0:39
just hang out with other people join us live then that's all you have to do
0:42
on a tuesday normally but sometimes it's a wednesday and you just have to come
0:46
along to the sports therapy association youtube channel if you prefer facebook
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page for some bizarre reason then go to to the Sports Therapy Association Facebook
0:52
page, and you can join us live.
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Although tonight's going to be quite quiet, because I believe there's some football
0:57
game going on somewhere in the world. So that's fine. We understand.
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And I'm not going to judge you for not joining us if you normally do.
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Very shortly in this episode entitled, Will AI Ever Replace Human Health Practitioners?
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We will be joined by special guest, the wonderful Joe Turner,
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founder of mehab.co.uk and host of You Matter podcast.
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This episode is actually part one of a two-part focus on AI and Healthcare,
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because next Tuesday, back to the normal day of Tuesday, so that'll be July
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the 16th at eight o'clock, my guest will be Marcus Slade, who's the co-founder
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of Physiogeny Technology,
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and he's going to be discussing AI systems for the modern therapy practice.
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I'm really excited that it's kind of worked out this way, because tonight we're
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going to talk about how far AI can help us, and is there any danger,
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and are we kind of losing our own identity,
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and what, you know, what we do is really about if we're thinking
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it can be replaced by AI it's going to be a wonderful kind of philosophical conversation
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and the next week we've got a guy along who's selling loads of
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AI technology so it's going to be a challenge for them but it's
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going to be exciting so have a look at what he offers and there is a load of ways
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that AI can help the clinic there's no doubt about it and if you are listening
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live and you want to chime in and tell us how AI is helping you whether it's
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using chat gpt to write I don't know notes afterwards or something or blogging
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or maybe using using AI in your booking system or reports, whatever it is, then do let us know.
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Before we start with part one, obviously, I have to give a big thank you to last week's guests.
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I'll bring it up for those of you on YouTube. You can see I'm showing a screenshot here.
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Last week, it was episode 204, Therapy for Swimmers.
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And I was joined by the wonderful Carla Bickerstaff. I've got to start saying
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wonderful. It's already become a buzzword.
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Fantastic, Carla Bickerstaff and the lovely Jenny Lane, who gave us an hour
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of their time sharing their experiences of working with swimmers,
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including triathletes.
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Amazing episode i mean especially amazing
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to me because i work with runners and swimmers and the
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idea of shoulders and things like that is bizarre to me it's
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a part of the body i don't even know exists so it was lovely
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to hear um two people that's experienced as
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kyle and jenny talking about and some of the things which
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you really wouldn't imagine you need to know about if you're working with
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swimmers and loads of advice how to work closely with swimmers if that
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is what you can do so yeah as a as always
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available on all popular podcast apps and youtube right but tonight as i've
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already said um in episode 205 it's going to be will ai ever replace human health
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practitioners with my special guest founder of mehab.co.uk and host of you matter podcast joe turner.
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Music.
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I'm happy to say that people are coming through the door into the lifelands.
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We were both saying before, it's just going to be us and Billy and O-Mate sitting
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here while everyone else is cheering in the door.
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So yeah, Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show.
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I have known about you and followed you for years, but we've never actually
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seen each other face to face.
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So this is very special for me. So thank you for giving that your time.
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No, likewise. Yeah. We've had lots of comments online, haven't we?
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Haven't we just? And it's, yeah, it's wonderful.
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Not, it's not like flesh, flesh, but it's still the new reality,
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isn't it? So it's as close as we can get.
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Well, you're not that far away. Where are you in the world? I'm in Gloucestershire.
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Oh, I'm in South Coast, so it's not too far away. Okay. Yeah.
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So before we start consideration of this question tonight, will AI ever replace
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human health practitioners?
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I think it'd be useful for listeners to hear a little bit about yourself,
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to hear where you're coming from when you answer this question.
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In particular, I guess, what caused you to create mehab.co.uk and the podcast,
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the United Podcast? podcast.
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Yeah, thanks Matt. So I am a physiotherapist of now 27 years.
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Most of my career has been in MSK and for the last, I think it's about 12 years
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now, I've co-owned a clinic in Gloucestershire. It's two clinics now actually.
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And I started, I formed Mehab in 2020, I think it it was.
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So I, after practicing for many years as a physio, I probably had a bit of a
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career stroke midlife crisis and wanted to go off and do something that wasn't
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particularly clinical.
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So I spent a year doing some personal development work and getting coaching
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myself and enjoyed the process.
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But there were frequently light bulb moments going off thinking, well, this stuff just,
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is so applicable to healthcare. And I can see how this stuff would support practitioners.
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And at the end of the year, you could, if you wanted to, train as a coach.
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So I just kind of thought, yeah, why not? I'll do that. I don't really know
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what I'm going to do with it.
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COVID hadn't come on the scene at that point. It was 2019.
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I was just enjoying learning to coach, not knowing what on earth I would do with it.
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Even when I qualified, I thought, so is this going to be a separate career?
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Am I going to leave physio? What's going on here?
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And then we went into the pandemic and it was blatantly obvious that there were
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a huge number of clinicians needing support.
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So slightly by design, but more through circumstance, I decided to form a niche coaching clinicians.
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And, you know, I guess as it turns out, pandemic was a really good time for me to hone those skills.
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And it was nice to know that there was such a need out there.
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But I think really, if I look back, my interest in a coaching style was probably
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based on the way I've always been as a physio and maybe the way I've been as a parent and a friend.
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I've always been very interested in what is driving a person,
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what's behind their behaviors and what they say.
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And a lot of my friends tease me that I'll always be the one that asks one more question.
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And I was the same with patients in that I always wanted them to see what I
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saw, which was usually potential and something I could draw out and I could
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help them see and believe and work towards their goals.
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And then as a clinic owner, very much the same.
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And I've got a line on my website that says that mehab was formed partly out of anger.
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And it was anger at seeing so many clinicians that I generally thought were
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absolutely brilliant, telling me how they wished they could do better,
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asking me what course I thought they should go on so that they would be, you know, good enough.
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And it just, this disconnect was quite frustrating. And I, so I suppose even
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before I knew about coaching, I was generally trying to help people see how
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brilliant I thought they were.
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I'm just going to jump in there. Sorry, but this is going to be really significant
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for our listeners in fact i think i hear a few of them rejoicing because
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for for our sports therapists massage therapists sports
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rehab therapists to think that physios have self-doubt
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to think that they haven't got it made and this is i'm not a little bit joking
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but it is a problem in the non-allied health professional industry because pedis
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physios are put up and pedestal thinking oh yeah they're the probes they've
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done a four-year degree they can do anything they can work for the nhs and we
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kind of think they've got it sussed they get they can do what they want to
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do and they're going to get a good career out of it and that sports therapists
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and sports master's therapists are the only ones who get the imposter syndrome and self-doubt.
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But you are suggesting that for yourself and for a lot of clinicians,
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other physios you've met, that this isn't the case.
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Not at all. I mean, I've actually interviewed a,
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another coach on my podcast way back about imposter syndrome
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feelings and she gave me a statistic something
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like 75% of the population are likely
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to experience feelings of imposter syndrome at some point within healthcare
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it's 96% and it's supposed to be particularly high in professions where technical
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ability is valued very highly and you know if you marry that which which is
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obviously the case in healthcare professions,
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marry that with the personality type that tends to be drawn to physio,
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usually will have been quite high achieving at school, probably in sports as well.
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Massive people pleasers, most of us, and this drive to be good and also to be
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right in a profession where you're dealing with a highly unpredictable medium called human beings.
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And you've got colleagues, you know, that seem to be brilliant.
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And then you've got doctors, you know, we all work in this hierarchy,
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don't we? There's always somebody around us that we think is better.
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And then there's this constant opportunity for improvement. There are courses,
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there are conversations you can have online.
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You know, if you're searching for validation that you might not know something
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or might not know something as well as somebody else,
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there's just so much out there to feed that
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feed that feeling so yes soft tissue therapists rehab
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therapists do not be under any illusions i'm
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quite busy as a coach and a lot of that is around supporting physios
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who yeah don't always that's really i mean
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i'm not pleased to hear anybody is suffering or questioning
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their career choice but in like i say in the
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non-aligned health professional industries yes
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it's it's it's something that undoes the good because like
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you say particularly with massage therapists for example
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anybody who wants to rub their hands through oily hairy backs for a living and
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not get paid much for it work really hard i have to do all the laundry afterwards
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they're in it not for the money they're in it for altruistic reasons it's as
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close to altruism as a human can get i think because you just want to think
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you're helping and make that person better.
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So it's like you've said, we tend to be people in this career who do want to
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help others and receive more thank yous than bank notes.
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So I like the way you said that, the combination of that.
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With the the uncertainty of
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what's going to happen and the fact that maybe it doesn't always work
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and you've got people around and you think of better it's it's a
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pretty dangerous combination isn't it can lead to a lot of stress and that technical
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ability part you know we're measured i don't know about you guys but you know
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from college we're we're measured against our ability to be technically accurate
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and you know that's what we have in our heads and sometimes that's,
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I don't know sometimes that doesn't sit so comfortably
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as you know perhaps I'm generalizing but
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you know maybe people in engineering or accounting that you know
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are really their brain works in
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that very precise way and they love a right and a wrong answer and
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I think a lot of people that go into our professions are well
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if you look at it positively I think we're multi-talented you know
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generally we have been good at those subjects but we've
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also probably might have been good at art or english or languages and
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things and you know we're often people that connect dots all
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over the place so then to be measured on something
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so narrow and to learn to value yourself
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on that can often feel quite uncomfortable i think one of the problems that
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i'm wondering whether this is the same for you and other physios because obviously
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you mustn't generalize but you've spoken and you've coached a load of physio
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so you probably get to see trends but one of the things that i think often we
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feel is unique to us and probably plagues us a bit more is.
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Still a lot of the courses out there are delivering
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information which is outdated and and sometimes it's
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a little bit incorrect sometimes it's just plain wrong and people
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spending three four thousand pounds coming out after learning in a way which
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often the instructors put on a bit of a pedestal anything they're amazing and
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they're telling stuff then they come out and especially these days with the
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internet they read something online but maybe someone's shouting in capital
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letters or whatever it is and it's like this is all wrong you're not
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doing this you're not doing this you're not doing this and the reaction to that for a lot of,
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soft tissue therapists is what either anger disappointment and giving up and
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i always think that's a tragedy because these people who are altruistic who've
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got so many different skills who want to help others they they realize that
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a lot of the stuff they've been taught.
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Well not a lot some fundamental things that have
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been taught is not quite accurate so i'm thinking oh i don't know things like massage
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can spread cancer you're breaking down muscle knots
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all that that sort of stuff you can cause miscarriage all these things for
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someone to say actually that's not quite true unfortunately as
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human beings we don't go oh that's interesting tell me or we go yes it
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is or we go i've got no skills does that
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happen as much in physiotherapy or is that kind of more unique to our industries
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no it absolutely does and i often talk about when i was a young physio there
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was a as a thing called the macp and that was kind of the holy grail of your
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technical skills at that time.
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To be fair to the MACP, they have changed their offering quite a bit,
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so I'm not bashing them for this now.
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But I was put through that course.
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I was working in a London hospital and, you know, I was put through that and, you know, very.
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Pleased to be put on it, but was struggling a lot with the specificity,
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you know, even then where specificity wasn't a dirty word.
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I wish my brain was just constantly going, really? Oh, really? You sure?
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Definitely. It just doesn't compute with what I see in front of me as humans
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and what I believed physiotherapy to be when I went into it until we got onto the pain module.
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And we started learning about neuroscience and pain physiology,
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which was more in its infancy, then it was around the Louis Gifford McThacker era.
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And to a large extent at that time, pain physiology was the thing that stuffed
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up all the beliefs around mobilizations and, you know, stretching to a certain
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extent and soft tissue and neural mobilization.
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And a lot of my contemporaries got really, like you described,
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upset and quite angry at what was being challenged. At the time,
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I found it really refreshing.
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But I think what happened in my mind was that I didn't go, okay,
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well, everything I've taught is utterly pointless.
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I was just perfectly happy with the fact that there was a different explanation
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for why sometimes the things I was doing worked.
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And I would encourage people to adopt
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that approach now and embrace the fact that we
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are getting better at understanding what happens
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when we put our hands on people or when we talk to
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people or when we challenge people or where we
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give people space to talk because we're
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learning to understand how humans work better and of
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course that's going to mean that some of the things
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we taught were taught that just just look at it that okay it doesn't mean i
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need to stop doing what i was doing i just need to have more modern thinking
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about why i choose to do it why it might work or why it might not work and you
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know that's why specificity is.
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Under the cosh at the moment, because, you know, I think a lot of the modern thinking,
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really doesn't back up the fact that it always matters in minute detail what
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technique you choose or, you know, how particular you are about the way you
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prescribe an exercise or perform a technique.
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But it really is worthwhile learning the physiology and the modern thinking behind it.
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And actually, Matt, from my experience of people like you and Anna Mazzieri
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and Matt, what's Matt's surname escaping me in the moment?
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Scott. Yes, Matt Scarsbrick. You know, when I listen to people like you guys,
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you and I don't wish to put my my colleagues down.
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But, you know, you guys are really interrogating that evidence with vulnerability and honesty.
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Honesty and hats off to
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you because it often more directly challenges what
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you do because so much of your work is hands-on and
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but you're finding ways to reframe it I mean Anna Mazzieri talks about touch
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as a context isn't she in a platform for engagement with with clinicians and
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to me that's a much more open-minded and generous approach to emerging evidence
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I don't think there's a need to to be so faithful and defensive.
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Yeah, that's great. And yeah, and Maria Maciere, yeah, definitely.
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And a few others as well are trying.
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We're trying as much as we can to show, yeah, these things aren't quite right,
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but now we're getting to know exactly, well, not exactly, we're getting to know
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now, thanks to research and evidence, what probably is happening,
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why people are feeling better when we've got our hands on you and all the other
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things which come with it. So it should be.
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This is the struggle I think educators have got,
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if you manage to get through to the person in front of you and treat them in
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the right way at the right time then you can turn it from being angry and sad
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to something quite exciting and.
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And something yeah that's that's tricky for
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educators it's also tricky for your relationship
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with patients you know equally patients aren't all
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they're going oh right okay so everything i've been told for
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the last 20 years by health professionals isn't quite right and some people
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will get quite angry about that other people just be really fascinated and again
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that's personality types but you know maybe as a clinician sometimes you've
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got to sit with the discomfort of having slightly pissed your patient off for
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the short term while you both go through that process.
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It's true and not being scared that that's the fact i think you
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know i think that we've had that a few times is as soon
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as you can realize that not quite knowing the answer of
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being able to say to your patient this is interesting this isn't
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what i would expect it that's fine we'll work with this and maybe patients probably
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most of them are probably going to think wow i'm really
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glad this guy's really looking into it you know it's not well that's that's
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one of the absolute tenements of coaching actually to be okay
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with not knowing i mean in
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the context of coaching it's not knowing how a session
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is going to go and also having no idea what
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the right answer is um and you know
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i know you need to keep that within certain limits sometimes within
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health care but it is so freeing to just give
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yourself the space and give the patient the space to not immediately know
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the answer freeing is a good word it's freeing
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that's what i could that's why healthcare like you say not all the time but
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a lot of the time that should be how we feel because we are working with individuals
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and they are going to be a little bit different depending on the iron you've
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got to listen more anyway the reason we have talked about this happy podcast
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listener for so much now is we haven't actually directly addressed the question yet but i think.
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With that conversation, it will make it clearer now where Joe's coming from
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when we start addressing the actual title of this episode. So I think we're
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going to go down there now.
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So just to repeat, in case you got lost and you think this is a podcast episode
19:36
I was listening to, this is, just scroll down now, here we go.
19:41
So the title is, Will AI Ever Replace Human Health Practitioners?
19:47
And I did mention in the advert for this episode, the piece recently published
19:52
in The Garden which was the head of first nhs physiotherapy clinic run by ai
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to start this year for those who love the pictures we'll put a little picture
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of that up for you so you can see.
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There we go so i mean it's it's an interesting piece and we're going to kind
20:10
of dissect it now but in particular joe you saw this and we'll look into the
20:15
whys and hows shortly but you saw this piece and it inspired you to write a
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piece for the this month's msk mag by the physio matters team,
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let's jump into it why why you're a busy person why did you suddenly think i've
20:31
got to write something about this what was it about it that you didn't like
20:33
so i deliberately misunderstood,
20:39
the article you know looking at the fact that this is written in a newspaper
20:45
that wants to grab attention.
20:47
I know this will have been written in a certain way to overplay the fact that
20:53
it's written by the clinic.
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It's claimed that the clinic is being run by AI.
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I am sure the team at Flock and the people running this organization wouldn't
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make that claim, but I do understand it makes a headline.
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But I chose to take it at face value.
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And I hope in my article, I got across that the bit that actually made me angry
21:17
doesn't have a great deal to do with AI itself.
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So like most of us, I accept that there are many, many positives to AI and we're
21:27
seeing great ways that it can support particularly the administrative side of our clinic.
21:33
But the wording in this article was, this is an AI physiotherapy clinic and
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it referred to an AI physiotherapist.
21:43
So if you were a lay person reading this article, I would imagine you would
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think, great, the whole thing from start to finish is an AI service.
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There's not going to be any humans. That's interesting.
21:55
You know, they've managed to take the entire profession and computerize it.
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The bit that really made me angry is not the AI is coming.
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It's that we are, it feels to me like we're letting so much of our profession
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go that it's possible to write an article like this.
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I hope that most people would be able to interpret it for what it is.
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But the idea that the complex web that forms not just physiotherapy,
22:26
but soft tissue therapy and rehab particularly,
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could literally just be taken by a bot or by AI, that's what's infuriating.
22:36
Scenes I'm almost less angry with the AI side of things
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I'm more angry with us for being so
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lost in the wilderness for so long I think about who we
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are so that we're not championing our brilliance as therapists so that you know
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an article like this would just be ridiculous because everyone would know what
22:57
physiotherapy is and what self-tissue therapy is and what rehab is Does that
23:01
answer the question? Definitely.
23:04
And yeah, I mean, I think you are giving the general public.
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I don't want to use the word intelligence, but I think a lot of people will
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see this and the newspaper knows what they're doing.
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And I agree with you. They will have an image of like, you're just going and
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you talk to a computer or face the computer.
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They're thinking like something out of Pete Sharker's Guide to the Galaxy or something like that.
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There's something like that. There'll be some computer face on the screen.
23:29
Or even some people think, oh, they're going to be robots.
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They're going to, you know, that's the kind of image because that's like,
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that's what people think AI is all about.
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And that's a, it is a shame. It's a bit of a, I agree.
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Is written that way or maybe it's just us who are ultra cynical and we're looking into it but,
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and it seems such a shame as well because I always get so excited when
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mainstream newspapers do put an article in there about healthcare like we've
23:52
had some great stuff by Roger Carey we've had Mary O'Keefe from Ireland as well
23:56
about Matt Payne I think Derek Griffin once he had a piece as well in the Independent
24:00
but then they get eclipsed by other stuff and it's and it seems such a shame
24:05
because media could educate people.
24:07
Well there was it wasn't so long ago that we had the Daily Mail article about
24:11
physiotherapy being a quick consultation and a sheet of exercises.
24:16
And it works because patients use that phrase almost on a daily basis with me.
24:22
Oh, I had this experience where I just had a single consultation and a sheet
24:26
of exercises, and that's become shorthand for a service that fell short of my expectations. And.
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You know, lo and behold, the next newspaper article is, oh, look,
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in theory, a bot can do those things.
24:41
Well, of course it can, if that's what the, that's the first line in my article,
24:45
you know, reduce what people understand a service to be to something incredibly simple.
24:50
And then the next bit of information is, oh, and by the way, we can automate that.
24:55
So, you know, there's two sides to it. And I'm not here to slam my NHS colleagues,
25:00
because I know that in so many good departments, that isn't the experience of physiotherapy.
25:05
But if that happens even enough times for enough numbers of people to be using
25:09
this to describe the experience they've had, then of course,
25:13
an article like this is going to land beautifully because like, yeah, that's all I got.
25:17
So if it comes from a bot and I don't have to leave my home and it's much more
25:20
simple and I don't have to wait 20 weeks for it, marvellous.
25:24
I mean, interestingly, I met a lady recent physio first AGM it might even be
25:31
this service she was involved in and she was telling me about it and it sounded
25:35
brilliant because it was a triage service and she was describing how.
25:41
The you know there was a really good collection questionnaire
25:45
so it was really able to sift through the right
25:49
referral pathway for this particular person and
25:52
then you know they were they were distributed they were sent very
25:55
quickly to the right department and they trialed it
25:58
and the physios were loving it because they were getting less inappropriate referrals
26:01
and a lot of the information that they needed had been
26:04
taken care of beforehand now if this is the same service then it's a really
26:09
good thing but she most definitely would not have called it an AI physiotherapy
26:14
clinic yeah yeah I was well on we're sitting next to her at dinner and you know
26:19
it just sounded really really exciting but this isn't if it is that then this
26:23
isn't presenting it honestly,
26:25
definitely i mean if it's something like first nhs physiotherapy
26:28
clinic assisted by ai or something or just it's just that run by ai i think
26:33
it's human free which is which is i think but we'll talk about it in more detail
26:38
about what you think how we are a little bit guilty for people believing this
26:43
and that so let's just bring up from the screen so like i say you wrote a wonderful piece,
26:48
in, let's change this one.
26:51
Let's get rid of that. You owe to one little piece in MSK Mag,
26:53
which we have talked about before on the show. It's monthly...
26:57
It's in paper as well. After the fact that Jack Chew and Jack March have decided,
27:00
let's go back to magazine form as well. So you can get it in good old-fashioned
27:03
magazine, Runners World or something.
27:05
But it's also online. There is a free, it's like a membership thing,
27:09
but it can be free. You just get, I think, summaries and things.
27:11
And then there's a very reasonable introductory rate where you just get a certain
27:15
amount and there's full membership, all sorts of things.
27:16
We've talked about it in other shows. I think you get a couple of free articles.
27:19
In fact, mine was free this month. A couple of them each month are free.
27:22
Yeah, to give you a little tease. And then you don't have to sign up straight away. way but
27:25
in these days where you can get some terrible information from
27:28
lots of places when you've got a product just giving quality
27:31
information there's been other stuff we had ben white brow on the show as
27:34
well which i loved that thing about sit in the
27:36
mud which i thought was a wonderful piece that straight onto the
27:39
show it's wonderful and so yeah there is quality stuff in there
27:42
so i would consider looking at it and
27:45
again don't be put off by the fact oh it's for physios isn't
27:48
it it's not i know it's called physio matters but jack chew
27:51
back in the day was starting the whole
27:54
physio matters podcast and everything when there wasn't
27:57
such a voice for sports therapists it was just all about physiotherapy and he's
28:00
been a key player along with people along the way like yourself and jim oliver
28:03
and all the other people involved in physio maths too to break down these walls
28:07
and make it more multidisciplinary so don't be put off you can't change the
28:11
name now it can't be multidisciplinary matters it just wouldn't work.
28:14
So it's still called physio matters everyone matters everyone matters
28:18
don't be luckily in the 19th world but it can't be that
28:20
way but um yeah definitely don't let that put you off sports therapist and
28:23
sports therapist and if you listen to the show
28:26
believe me you will have the information to understand
28:29
everything that's written in there in fact it will give you confidence because
28:32
you will read stuff which supports what we've been talking about
28:35
what i guess we've been talking about let me bring
28:38
up for the visuals of you let's go
28:41
to there we go so this is i love the
28:43
title by the way this was fantastic i don't know whether it's
28:46
sarcasm anger it was just subtle
28:49
innuendo but yeah chat gpt this is this was joe
28:52
turner's title for this chat gpt can you tell me
28:55
if you want my job tell me about that title what were you trying to get at yeah
28:59
so it was a little bit cheeky almost using the thing i was criticizing to create
29:05
the the catchy title for me and also yeah trying trying to get the answer from
29:10
the thing that I was trying to keep away from my job.
29:14
But it's interesting because it wouldn't be able to answer, would it?
29:17
Because by definition, AI doesn't have desires yet, or it would just be able
29:21
to give you a calculated response to what other people are saying.
29:24
Sorry, I interrupted to continue.
29:27
I don't worry, I've forgotten all of them. I think that was title number five.
29:31
Jack Chu and I had a fun WhatsApp exchange about midnight, trying to get more clever dick titles.
29:38
And that was the last one. Did you get the last one? I did, of course.
29:43
You got the last one. I wasn't going to say. That is, yeah, yeah. Good, I'm pleased.
29:47
Yeah, I'm pleased. I can only imagine some of his offerings.
29:51
I think he said at the end, yeah, I put a shit one in because I wanted you to
29:53
do better. Of course you did.
29:55
Brings people together right jack it's amazing but yeah great piece and like
30:01
that is actually free if you look it up if you put in msa mag joe turner then
30:06
that will come up and you'll be able to read it but obviously we're going to
30:08
talk about it in the next 25 30 minutes as well.
30:13
Hey there matt phillips here sorry to interrupt the podcast
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31:17
You said yeah what infuriates me
31:20
is that this is called an ai physiotherapy clinic and the
31:23
bot is called an ai physiotherapy so it's yes taking away all
31:26
kind of human interaction it's just a recipe but i
31:29
love this at the top you said listening encouraging building trust
31:33
and confidence using touch as a
31:36
context for imparting knowledge and understanding so
31:39
that's just gonna be beautiful for anybody who does
31:42
use touch yeah can you expand a little bit on that and
31:45
why i was trying to create
31:49
a list of the things which a bot probably couldn't do now i do understand that
31:55
you could argue that a bot could appear to listen and it could be encouraging
32:00
but these next bits building trust and confidence is that that's a subtle complex skill so i.
32:09
Just as an example, I think the day after I wrote this article,
32:12
I had a patient in who seemed like just a straightforward hip replacement post-op.
32:19
We were going through routine assessment and our conversation,
32:22
if you'd listened in, would have sounded very straightforward.
32:26
You know, nothing particularly unusual about it.
32:29
And this man had tears rolling down his face while he was saying it.
32:32
And it took a little bit of silence, actually, and then some gentle questions
32:37
to ascertain that And this chap had recently been diagnosed with OCD.
32:42
And the fact that he couldn't mow his lawn while he was non-weight-bearing post-op
32:47
was absolutely killing him.
32:49
And that was the most important thing. now you
32:52
know yes a bot could probably have you
32:55
know an advanced ai situation could have
32:58
probably got that information out but you
33:01
know how would he feel putting that in knowing that the information that's coming
33:05
back is not not from someone who sat and listened and assimilated it in real
33:10
time it's a combination of thoughts and opinions that have been fed in over
33:16
time and you know the algorithms have sorted it out.
33:19
And okay, it might get to that point where it's that sophisticated.
33:21
But I think those listening skills and then really letting someone know that
33:27
you understand, then finding the ways to help them work out a solution.
33:32
I mean, that's the other thing. I'm happy to be corrected, but I think there's
33:37
a lot of evidence to suggest that if you can help a patient or a client create their own solution,
33:44
then their belief in it, their their understanding of it and their willingness
33:49
to stay with a rehab program is so much greater.
33:52
And that's a really complex skill because, you know, perhaps when you're a less
33:58
experienced therapist, you do learn recipes and you teach and you try and tell
34:03
and you try and fix a lot. And sometimes that's still appropriate.
34:06
But as you get more experience, you learn to give that space to yourself and the clients.
34:11
We were talking about this a little bit before we came on air, there, won't we?
34:14
And allow the solution to develop rather than it being a direct question and answer.
34:21
You know, I put this question in, I get an answer and yes, that sounds okay.
34:24
And off I go, oh, but I'm doing this rehab program that I was taught to do, but,
34:29
it just feels off and I don't believe in it. So I'm not going to do it.
34:32
You need to go and have another conversation.
34:36
These are all really subtle skills and touch as a context. Yeah,
34:39
I appreciate your audience is going to pick up on that one.
34:43
So maybe that's the most crazy thing about the article.
34:48
Yes, there are arguments going on about hands-on and hands-off,
34:51
but that article just completely wipes hands-on off the table, doesn't it?
34:56
As if there's absolutely no benefit whatsoever now we talked earlier in this
35:00
discussion about the fact that you've got to be modern in your interpretation
35:04
and your understanding as to why touch might be helpful.
35:08
But it is you know there we know there are so many patients for whom touch is
35:14
a really really helpful adjunct do you know at the weekend i was on a p.o sullivan
35:18
course the weekend before last And I was talking to a physio who works with
35:23
psychologists and he said,
35:25
oh, the psychologist shared with me their frustration that we have the remit to use touch.
35:31
And, you know, obviously it needs to be appropriate and touch for some people
35:35
is a highly inappropriate tool.
35:37
But where it is appropriate that the
35:40
psychologists were saying you know we're really envious because it
35:43
is such a sort of
35:46
portal if you like into connection and
35:50
to establishing trust but we're completely not
35:53
allowed to do it it's not in the in the toolkit of
35:56
a psychologist so yeah i
35:59
think in that those paragraphs i was just trying
36:02
to think of some of the things that you
36:05
know really are part of that human interaction that at
36:08
the moment like i say please prove me wrong anybody out
36:11
there but i i don't think ai is there yet and
36:15
i kind of hope it won't be you know it's so hard
36:18
not to sound like a luddite here and i was very nervous putting that article
36:21
out because i thought you know i'm just laying myself open to people going oh
36:24
how old's this physio oh yes a bit old doesn't like computers wants to do lots
36:31
of hands-on it would be so easy to fall into that trap and lay myself open to that.
36:36
But I always like going with that before I got into doing silly voices.
36:42
I think.
36:44
It's too easy to give everything over to technology and not,
36:51
I guess that's the crux of my article, let's hold on to humanity.
36:55
We know that loneliness is a huge problem.
36:59
We know that too much screen time for our kids more than anybody is a problem.
37:05
We do need human connection.
37:08
And technology is sophisticated enough to mimic some of that.
37:12
But, you know, i really hope it's not good
37:15
enough to totally replace it not yet give
37:18
us a few more centuries before that happens yeah do you think
37:21
part of the problem is the public
37:24
perception and maybe even some therapist perception and
37:27
the and the tutors the teacher is that physio or
37:31
sports therapy whatever it is is a lot of
37:34
the time we still think it is something that's done to you people say oh
37:36
yeah i'm going to have some physio done and as soon as you think
37:39
that as soon as you think you're getting fixed because they're doing this mobilization
37:42
or they're giving you this massage then that does automatically take out the
37:47
idea of or i'm going for a chat i'm going to go to somebody who's going to listen
37:50
to me he's going to support me he's going to facilitate me he's going to take
37:53
into consideration how i am and all sorts of other levels as opposed to just my knee,
37:59
yeah is that part of the problem absolutely i think it is and you know also
38:03
you know maybe i I have written this article from a very particular perspective
38:09
of who I am as a therapist.
38:12
And I won't apologize for that. But I, you know, I do accept that there are
38:17
people out there who think, you know, the chat is not that important.
38:22
It is about doing stuff to people. There's a lot of patients that,
38:26
yeah, hold that belief very dearly. Lots of patients that come to my clinic.
38:30
But hey, you know, we're intelligent people. And that's part of the thing, isn't it?
38:34
Your your ability to decipher who the person in front of you is and what they need.
38:39
And if what they need is for you to give them what they expect and there is
38:44
a justifiable reason for it, fair enough.
38:48
I'm not in the camp of just give the patient what they want when you're doing
38:51
something completely non-evidence based and is not going to improve.
38:55
Then hopefully you can educate.
38:57
But it's hard work. Look, we can't expect patients to have come on the career
39:04
journey that we've been on over the last 10, 20 years.
39:07
I don't know what's happened in accountancy or law or other professions.
39:11
We've got a job on our hands to bring these patients with us.
39:14
And I think that we do have to put the work in for that. That's what we owe
39:19
our patients. Otherwise, yeah, bots can do it.
39:24
It's it's interesting going back to the guardian article because some of the
39:29
stuff that's kind of put in there and almost hidden let me go and back to bring
39:33
this up the article when it goes into the nitty-gritty of it for people who
39:37
kind of read the small print almost it does kind of say what we're saying and just bring this up into a,
39:44
However, some in the industry say that AI cannot yet replicate the skill of
39:48
a fully trained physiotherapist, and that treatment needs to be nuanced due
39:50
to the complexity of cases. So, I mean, yeah, you think.
39:57
Thanks for including that, by the way, on page three of the article or something.
40:00
But then it goes into what I thought was quite disturbing because it stats.
40:07
Stats people love giving stats and i i question how
40:11
much of this will stay in the minds of the readers
40:14
it talks about some of the success of the
40:17
pilot scheme that they put out i think it was in hospitals to student doctors
40:22
or something they started testing this ai clinic on them and seeing what the
40:26
results were like and and then you get the stuff which the public really like
40:29
to see it says i'll read it out just for people listening to the podcast all
40:33
of those surveyed patients from
40:34
the NHS pilot said that their experience with flock had been at least equivalent
40:39
to seeing a human physiotherapist and 57% of patients said they thought the
40:43
AI experience was better.
40:45
It's boring, isn't it? Well, it worries me. One, if that happened and two.
40:53
What message that's going to give to humans, because that's a really kind of like science fiction.
40:57
Oh, wow. Look, it's even better than humans.
40:59
Over half the people thought it was better than human beings.
41:02
But I think if, like you said, if you're speaking to the person who put this
41:05
trial together and actually had all of the information and all of the kind of
41:08
data they collected, I wonder whether that statement there is a little bit misleading.
41:14
Yeah, I mean, who knows? If we do take it at face value, there's still,
41:18
questions to be asked behind that, aren't there? So, you know,
41:21
what was the human physiotherapist experience?
41:25
And I think we need to look at ourselves and ask, you know, if that is true,
41:29
and that's a correct stat, then, you know, what the hell is going on that that
41:33
is the conclusion that can be drawn by 57% of patients.
41:37
Joanne Elphinstone shared another article that she'd found when all this was circulating.
41:42
And I think the sort of crux of that article was,
41:48
It was another study where they had put patients in a double blind trial where
41:54
they inputted their symptoms into a computer and they received a response either
42:00
generated by AI or generated by a healthcare professional.
42:04
I think it was a doctor. I think it was a GP thing, not a physio thing.
42:08
And I can't remember the results, but more people felt that the bot's response
42:13
was more empathic, which again, on the face of it, you're like, oh.
42:18
God, well, you know, empathy is the thing we're talking about here.
42:20
So if the bot's beating us on that, then, you know, we're screwed.
42:24
But I thought about that and I thought, okay, well, if I was the clinician in
42:29
that scenario and I had just received someone's symptoms on text and then I had to type my response,
42:37
it's going to take me quite a long time to generate the words that I would say quite easily.
42:44
And I'm probably going to write it in a more technical way than I would actually say it.
42:48
So what they receive is probably very different to what they would receive verbally from me.
42:54
So is that a fair trial? And, you know, one thing that I would entirely concede
43:00
is that AI is much better at generating that kind of language instantly.
43:05
So, you know, the effort level on that clinician after doing four of those,
43:10
they're probably going to think, oh God, you know, just bang out a quick paragraph.
43:12
But that isn't how human healthcare works. We don't receive emails and respond to them by text.
43:19
That's a very interesting point. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a very good point.
43:23
Yeah, the AI with a flick of a switch just manages to put together something
43:26
which sounds full of empathy, whereas text sent by it or the email sent by an actual human.
43:33
Maybe I'm clutching at straws. I think it's a very valid point.
43:36
But as we look deeper into this again and start ignoring the interesting kind
43:41
of science fiction side of stuff,
43:42
we realise that behind this, like you alluded to in the beginning,
43:45
it is a triage system the ai is still being fed through humans and it's still
43:51
being checked and it's not human free at all i think let me just check what
43:56
oh no that's not what let me just see it's definitely they mentioned let me go to the next one i think.
44:05
This was annoying as well. This annoyed me. More than four in five participants
44:09
reported that their symptoms have improved during treatment with the platform.
44:13
97% of the patients who self-referred to Flock within NHS Lothian received an
44:18
automated triage outcome.
44:20
92% were immediately approved for AI physio and given access to the appointment the same day.
44:25
5% all tried to refer to another NHS service such as a GP.
44:28
But these massive percentages again make
44:31
it look like just a human free ai robot
44:35
has managed to make you symptom free and it's if
44:38
anything it's just kind of persuading people to
44:41
actually use this system instead of seeing a human but well one
44:44
interesting thing matt sorry to interrupt you when i
44:47
was talking to jack about this before i wrote the article he
44:50
said actually he's getting quite a lot of business out of this
44:53
circumstance because he said well i think what's
44:56
happening is quite often they will get through that first stage get
44:59
an ai physio assessment and the immediate outcome of
45:02
that is you need to go and see a human physio and he'd had
45:05
three or four people in his clinic that week coming in
45:08
with that information okay i've tried the ai thing but it's talking so yeah
45:13
as you say there's it's not this article suggests it's human free but it's probably
45:18
not very far down the chain that a human gets involved or was very much involved
45:23
in creating the information that
45:24
it's well obviously creating information that's fed in the first place.
45:28
Definitely and and even there was a quote from the actual creator i think i
45:34
missed it oh no it wasn't from the creator it was from the csp health informatics lead,
45:40
that wants to read that out now csp health informatics yeah ewan mccomiskey
45:45
excuse my pronunciation that's wrong said at the ai clinic there is no doubt
45:48
that more needs to be done to to tackle huge and intense waiting lists,
45:51
particularly for musculoskeletal services.
45:53
And AI has huge potential to be an adjunct,
45:56
So that's probably, there should be a capital lesson to the work of physiotherapists.
45:59
However, AI cannot yet replicate the clinical judgment and skills of a physiotherapist
46:03
who is required to be registered with a statutory regulator, blah, blah, blah.
46:06
I mean, that's probably the most important. It should come somewhere near the beginning.
46:09
Like the same way as if we're writing a blog, we have to say,
46:14
this is not medical advice. You should always see it, blah, blah, blah.
46:17
It should be like a, but it's not. It's kind of later on in the article.
46:21
And I was, you know, I had a bit of a dig at the CSP in my article.
46:24
Article but you know stating that why were
46:28
we not hearing about it from them why were they just a
46:30
token narrative balancing statement three-quarters
46:34
of the way through the article but you know I imagine you and McComsky
46:38
is not very pleased either about the way his
46:40
comment was used almost as a kind of it's a bit like the
46:43
other one you you quoted you know by the way physio
46:47
is quite complex actually yeah you might need a human it's
46:51
uh interesting and then they concluded as well no red flags
46:54
have been missed which again was interesting but then
46:57
maybe red flags is something that ai
47:01
could actually be used because
47:04
that is a little bit more clear-cut we've got i mean it's
47:07
still not infallible you still love to pick up on
47:09
situations by those kind of open-ended questions
47:13
of peeling back the layers and stuff but i can
47:15
imagine that somewhere which which a yeah unison
47:19
between humans and ai could be used there's an
47:22
interesting comment here i'm just going to read out from devs dev sterlo roly
47:25
i'm going to read this out devs thanks for leaving the comment this is a great
47:27
subject brilliant to highlight this thank you within the surgery side of the
47:31
nhs ai is being used in abdominal surgery e.g endometriosis pelvic adhesions
47:35
recovery time is much shorter less error and handshake the robot dot dot dot and then it moves on to uh.
47:45
The robotics are still controlled by a surgeon. Could AI be something we can
47:48
work with and open our minds to assist?
47:50
As you said, Matt, AI alone will still need human input, surely.
47:54
So, yeah, that's a good example, James, of where the two can work together.
47:58
There are some things which a robot or something programmed can probably do better than a human.
48:03
And the accuracy, every single time it does, it will be much more precise than
48:09
a human because it's just made to move that way.
48:11
But it still needs the human input behind it. And if what we did as therapists
48:16
was as specific as abdominal surgery, then yes, they could definitely see that.
48:23
But yeah, I mean, I hope Debs has heard you and I give a balanced argument to this.
48:29
I don't think either of us are saying no, no AI. Thank you very much.
48:34
Good question there, Debs. Thank you for your input. Cecily Hislop has said,
48:38
as someone who has to triage patients,
48:39
I also work for noticians, it's wiring that the nuances that humans show could
48:43
potentially be missed by ai that's what it's all about isn't it humans are complex
48:48
not complicated it's like loads of different stuff going on depending on the
48:52
moment of the day what's in the room the context and everything,
48:55
and i'm sure you know you expect you'd agree matt and people listening it's
49:00
often what a human being doesn't say which is important so you've got it you
49:05
know a bot is going to hear the question and take it at face value.
49:08
Well, you know, surprise, surprise, humans tell you the acceptable thing.
49:12
And there's often something really important underneath that,
49:15
that you've just got to dig a little bit or, you know, just be quiet for a moment
49:20
until they actually decide to tell you the thing that is important.
49:23
But so you could get a very good answer and a very correct answer for the thing
49:27
you decide to share first.
49:29
And then the consultation's done and off you go with your solution.
49:33
But, you know, a skilled clinician will work out that maybe the first thing
49:37
you said wasn't the thing.
49:40
Good point. Yeah, definitely. So what do you think, what would you like clinicians,
49:46
whether it's physios or any other type of healthcare professional,
49:49
what would you like them to take away from your blog?
49:53
What should they be reflecting and thinking, oh, maybe I should be doing this
49:56
a bit better, or maybe I should, how could I help avoid this sort of thing taking over?
50:00
I suppose my main hope was to stir people up by being perhaps a little bit more
50:06
provocative than I would be verbally.
50:08
But at the end, my last paragraph is really a rallying cry to come on people.
50:13
We need to be talking about how good we are and stop debating what we are.
50:20
Well we could continue that debate about what we are but it doesn't that shouldn't
50:25
diminish our confidence in our ability to help people and support people in
50:31
a really really important way you know and I'll keep doing all I can to to support
50:38
and encourage clinicians confidence.
50:40
And I do that you know partly hopefully because
50:43
I'm a nice person but also because I want
50:46
our professions to survive and if we're all
50:49
here wringing our hands lacking confidence searching for
50:53
identity we're not going to be up to
50:56
the job of defending what we do and you know
50:59
we do risk what potentially is starting to
51:01
happen already you know being told that we're we're not
51:04
our services aren't important enough
51:08
or you know there isn't enough evidence that we are better than
51:11
a robot we you know really think we have to start shouting a little bit louder
51:16
about how bloody brilliant we are once we've convinced ourselves yes sometimes
51:22
the issues it's interesting in soft tissue therapy i wonder whether sometimes
51:25
as well because some therapists not all therapists.
51:29
When you meet them and you see them and you read what they were doing and stuff,
51:33
you think, well, this person is not worried or I haven't got any prostate syndrome as well.
51:36
But a lot of the time they are doing a massive amount of cupping or dry needling,
51:41
or they're really invested in some kind of manual therapy.
51:44
And I wonder whether sometimes they kind of, I mean, with the right patient,
51:48
that kind of stuff might really help.
51:50
It might form part of that care that that patient needs at that particular time.
51:53
But I wonder whether investing a lot into doing something
51:56
to the patient again kind of maybe hides a little
52:00
inside burning thing going i need something
52:03
to do to this person you know i can't you know it's didn't you
52:06
know because that again puts it into a i'm doing this to you you know you can
52:10
do this yourself without me and i think that's why that comes very attractive
52:14
sometimes rather than considering maybe it's about communication so it makes
52:19
sense do you think sometimes yeah totally i think it's a really reassuring thing
52:22
to you know we all remember when
52:23
we first qualified, when frankly, we hadn't got a clue what we were doing.
52:26
Just to be able to deliver something that sounded quite plausible and,
52:30
you know, seemed to go down well with the patient and occasionally got good
52:33
results, that's really reassuring.
52:35
I think perhaps the other side of it is people who question often tend to be,
52:41
well, maybe this is a generalisation, but perhaps there is a trait that people
52:47
who question things question themselves as well, obviously,
52:50
you know, because if you're questioning your profession, you're going to question
52:53
yourself within that profession, you might be on the more sensitive side,
52:58
because you pick up on, you know, how people are feeling about things,
53:01
how your colleagues seem to be reacting.
53:03
And that's, you know, you made a perfectly valid comment that to be championing
53:08
ourselves, we've got to believe it ourselves first. And that is the challenge.
53:13
And I suppose you asked me at the start why I formed Mehab. And that is the
53:18
short answer, because I recognize that there is a collective lack of confidence
53:23
and lack of sense of identity.
53:25
And I understand those challenges. I have them all continuously myself.
53:29
But if we can work together, I think the more we talk about it and the more
53:32
we talk about solutions as well as problems and challenges.
53:36
Methods and strategies that we
53:39
have found personally to to to
53:42
overcome some of these insecurities then as a
53:44
profession we move forward very nice what i
53:47
said it's 8 56 already that
53:50
went very quickly i think katrina lake deserves the
53:54
final word you quoted her inside the fsk mag
53:57
and we'll bring that up on the screen because it is beautiful it's a lovely quotation it
54:00
kind of sums up what we're saying so katrina lake is a colleague
54:03
of yours works she owns a practice in
54:06
abingdon fantastic and she kind
54:09
of mentioned this just bowled off her tongue did she always come
54:12
out with these fantastic kind of like i don't know i don't know very well
54:15
but yeah maybe she just threw it out one evening on my facebook group
54:18
so yeah maybe she's a quote woman so katrina
54:21
lake said i can see ai replacing the brain
54:24
of exercise prescription and progression but i
54:27
don't see it replacing the complexity of human interaction
54:31
pretty good powerful words very.
54:34
Nice good job Katrina excellent right
54:37
let me get rid of that so I can see you again so
54:41
right time has beaten us but people have
54:44
listened hopefully if you have been affected by this
54:47
and you've got some more questions or maybe you'd like to get in contact
54:50
with Joe or follow Joe then we talked
54:53
about the website earlier on let's bring a screenshot for
54:56
people who have joined us on youtube got a
54:59
little screenshot here a few people of mehab.co.uk let's
55:04
bring this up there you go lovely website again by the way really nice very
55:08
nice as well so yeah mehab.co.uk and there's blogs there and it's it's a community
55:14
there's a facebook page as well linked to it which is a private group but what
55:18
sort of people do you get joining up in the facebook group then they're all clinicians.
55:22
And clinicians of all types so I don't have many questions on the entry but
55:27
you have to tell me what kind of clinician you are.
55:30
Okay so once again it's not just for physios it's for any clinician who's kind
55:33
of interested in they've got questions and they want to chat about it.
55:36
And that's called MeHub in a highly clever play on words.
55:40
Me hub i like you absolutely did there very good and also of course there's
55:46
the you matter podcast oh happy
55:47
birthday by the way 40 episodes yeah about that not quite up to your 205.
55:54
But no i was looking through them and it's interesting
55:57
i went back to the earliest episodes and i think it's the first
56:00
or second episode you're talking about how we identify ourselves
56:03
and our careers imposter syndrome so it's all
56:06
the same topics which we've had the
56:09
joy of talking to guests about on this podcast as well so there will
56:12
be things there for people to listen to how do
56:15
you kind of not sell but how do you kind of present this podcast
56:18
who do you think would want to listen to it and benefit from it well
56:21
again it's aimed at clinicians of any
56:24
persuasion description i do have a
56:27
few people who are not clinicians who listen to it i'm not quite sure what
56:30
they get out of it but well actually i suppose you know the topics
56:33
imposter syndrome and burnout things like
56:36
that do apply probably across any profession but
56:39
it is specifically for it's designed for
56:42
clinicians most of my guests are clinicians apart from
56:45
that 40th birthday one which was my husband that was an
56:47
indulgence and yeah it's it's
56:50
I just try to I guess I describe it as conversations around everything outside
56:57
what happens in the treatment room which isn't entirely accurate because all
57:00
the thoughts go around in your head while you're in the treatment but i i don't
57:03
tend to talk about clinical and techniques and things like that it's more about.
57:09
The clinician and what's going on for you very nice
57:12
and i love how you say it's worth having a look at the website because it will
57:15
cause reflection the way you write the way you present things i
57:18
think is wonderful in the sense that it makes the reader actually stop and
57:21
pause and think and i think that's probably your intention you know
57:24
and i love the way you you kind of say it
57:27
in the about section how we do we
57:30
are quite giving people we like to help
57:33
others and we've get into a business model where
57:36
we have to see every person and the more people we
57:39
fit into today which has its problems as well and then we do
57:41
run the severe problem with not actually thinking about ourselves looking
57:44
after ourselves which is where these issues come from and that
57:47
actually as you comment so rightly in the on the website
57:50
that can lead to us actually delivering a worse service and not
57:53
delivering the best care to our patients so it's like we're eating
57:55
our own tail sort of thing yeah so it's interesting point
57:59
you made there yeah and i never want to give people the impression
58:02
that i want to encourage self-care just so that you
58:05
can be better for other people and i often make the statement you you deserve
58:10
to be well because you're a human being just as your patients do and if the
58:13
bonus is that you're delivering a better service great but i would hate to think
58:18
that i'm just kind of driving the machine to make us better at giving to other
58:22
people that makes sense that makes sense.
58:25
And also the coaching, of course, as well, which you mentioned at the beginning
58:27
of the podcast. If people are interested in coaching and kind of mentoring,
58:31
then how do they contact you?
58:32
The best thing, if you're on the website, the best thing is to click on the
58:36
Booker Call link, which will take you straight to my Calendly link.
58:41
But yeah, actually, that's the only way to get that directly.
58:44
But if you contact me via email or via my LinkedIn or on Facebook Messenger
58:48
or anything, I'll send you that link.
58:50
And I always start with a, I hate the name Discovery Call.
58:53
I don't know why I hate it but it's just a well anyway a
58:57
call where we work out whether you like me and whether I think coaching can
59:01
help you that's fair enough that's great a discovery call people can email you
59:06
they can follow you if they want on twitter you're quite active on twitter so
59:10
that is at mehab underscore joe on facebook like I say there's the mehab private group mehub.
59:18
Mehub is the facebook group mehub is the facebook group and then
59:21
also substack.com as well which more and
59:24
more people are turning to now is this wonderful site and that's very
59:27
much connected to the msk mag but if you go to substack.com and
59:30
type in joe turner in the search then you'll see all the blogs and things that
59:34
joe writes and obviously you can subscribe and get updates when the new blogs
59:37
come along and it's a little bit i think now you can get the podcast off substack
59:41
as well oh wonderful there you go great place to get the podcast as well so
59:45
there you go lots of ways to to get in touch with Joe Turner.
59:48
Thank you so much, Joe, for joining us tonight. Thank you, Matt.
59:51
I very much appreciate it.
59:52
I think a few people have joined us live. Thank you, people who joined us live as well.
59:56
You are summing up very well. Deb Sterlovoli says, this has been fabulous.
59:59
Well said, Joe. Thanks, Matt.
1:00:02
Mansfield so it's great someone's put in the chat who's won the football I'm
1:00:05
vaguely interested no but actually
1:00:08
don't listen to that please people because I don't I'm going to watch it
1:00:11
and without knowing the result okay no don't don't
1:00:14
worry on this occasion I never thought I'd ever say it's my life please ignore
1:00:17
Joe Turner it's the only time I'm ever going to say but yes thank you people
1:00:23
who joined us live and everyone listening to the podcast so next Tuesday it'll
1:00:28
be back on a Tuesday at eight o'clock that's this week July the 16th we have
1:00:31
part two of our focus on AI and healthcare.
1:00:34
So we're going to be looking at some of the technology which you can use in clinic.
1:00:38
It's going to be with Marcus Slade, co-founder of Physiogeny Technology,
1:00:41
who will be discussing AI systems for the modern therapy practice.
1:00:45
So I'm hoping people that listen to this podcast will come to this and then
1:00:49
challenge our Marcus a little bit, or maybe you don't need to,
1:00:51
but it'd be interesting to put these two together and see what we come up with.
1:00:55
If you do want to join us, then like I say, just Sports Therapy Association
1:00:57
association youtube channel or the facebook page eight
1:01:00
o'clock next tuesday july the 16th thank
1:01:04
you very much nikki mansfield for not telling me
1:01:07
the football halftime score i was still going on is it great i'm gonna guess
1:01:10
that's good that's quite a positive vibe message you can ever tell with nikki
1:01:14
mansfield honestly she'd be great at poker yeah yeah yeah you would never know
1:01:17
could go right thanks again joe turner really appreciate giving us time and
1:01:22
hopefully we will see some of you but for the next episode take care bye.
1:01:27
Music.