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Dissecting Dave Martinez & Mike Rizzo firings by Nationals ownership · Foul Territory

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  Speaker 1: It's not just that the big league club has underperformed
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: this year. You have a draft and development process that
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: has not produced impact players for more than a decade.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: It is a pleasure to be joined by Barry's for Luga,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: for Luga. How do you say that, Barry? I need
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I get my name butchered all of the time. Tell
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: me how to properly pronounce your last name.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So I say this not facetiously. It's what I always say.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's it's honestly, all the letters in a row, so
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: you can't screw up if you're like a five year old.
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  Speaker 1: It's for Luga.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not smart of.
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  Speaker 3: Those, and I want to know how they mess up? Rizzo,
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  Speaker 3: how do you mess up?
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  Speaker 2: They always mess up. It's like a Lena Atlanta. I've
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: been called all kinds of things, some of which are
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  Speaker 2: not ready for for television, for air, Barry, It's great
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  Speaker 2: to be with you. A lot going on, obviously with
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the Washington Nationals. Is the timing a bit odd to you?
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  Speaker 2: Did you see this coming?
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  Speaker 1: You know it's because everybody will point to the draft
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  Speaker 1: that's I'm coming. And they have one to one the
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  Speaker 1: most important pick that they've had in a long, long time,
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  Speaker 1: and Mike Rizzo obviously made his name as a scout.
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  Speaker 1: He put this franchise into a winner behind two to
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  Speaker 1: one ones in Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harpour more than
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  Speaker 1: a decade ago. So yeah, that timing is weird, but
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  Speaker 1: I think you make this kind of move, and it's
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  Speaker 1: really a seismic move, given that the general manager had
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  Speaker 1: been here since two thousand and six and been in
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  Speaker 1: that chair since two thousand and nine, and Dave Martinez,
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  Speaker 1: the manager, took over in twenty eighteen. You make it
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  Speaker 1: not just because of one draft or one small situation. Optically,
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  Speaker 1: you want to do it at a time when the
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  Speaker 1: big league club isn't playing well and they just got
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  Speaker 1: you know, three they got swept by the Red Sox
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  Speaker 1: at home in three really uncompetitive games. That timing feels
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  Speaker 1: right optically. And also, though I mean, you don't make
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  Speaker 1: this change in a flippant way. You do it because
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  Speaker 1: it's not just that the big legue club has underperformed
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  Speaker 1: this year, but really, you have a draft and development
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  Speaker 1: process that has not produced impact players for more than
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  Speaker 1: a decade, their last truly impactful player in the big
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  Speaker 1: leagues that they drafted was Anthony Rendon, who went sixth
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  Speaker 1: in the twenty eleven draft. That's a long long time ago.
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  Speaker 1: They obviously get credit for signing Juan Soto as an
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  Speaker 1: amateur free agent, for sure, but it's been too many
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  Speaker 1: misses and not enough hits, and that's left them with
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  Speaker 1: a big league club that really their best players are
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  Speaker 1: all the players that they got in the Juan Soto
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  Speaker 1: trade in twenty twenty two. A lot of misses around that,
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  Speaker 1: so timing weird because of the draft, but overall, it's
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  Speaker 1: a big, big move for an organization that needed to
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  Speaker 1: make a big big move.
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  Speaker 4: Is this why the ownership was reticent to bring any
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  Speaker 4: free agents in? We felt like this was a year
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  Speaker 4: that it was time to strike because we looked at
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  Speaker 4: past blueprint bringing Jason Worth in. You have a cj Abrams,
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  Speaker 4: you have a Mackenzie Gore, you have James Wood. Those
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  Speaker 4: guys that, okay, these are going to be the core.
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  Speaker 4: Time to bring somebody like a Pee Alonzo in. Do
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  Speaker 4: you feel like this was just coming because ownership was like, well,
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  Speaker 4: we're not going to push in with these guys, We're
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  Speaker 4: gonna go with the next guys.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's the big question. Are they going
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  Speaker 1: to go with the next guys? Are they going to
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  Speaker 1: push in? I mean, I think it would be a
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  Speaker 1: disservice to to Mike Rizzo to wait and then say, oh,
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  Speaker 1: now we're providing resources that you didn't have, that you
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  Speaker 1: weren't allowed to do. And you're right about the first build,
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  Speaker 1: like they signed Jason Worth to a seven year deal
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  Speaker 1: a year before they were really ready to win, because
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  Speaker 1: at that point they could say, hey, big lead free
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  Speaker 1: agent who won a World Series elsewhere, here's what we have,
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  Speaker 1: here's where we're going, here's where you fit, and we're
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  Speaker 1: going to follow through on some promises after that. At
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  Speaker 1: this point, where they have would, where they have Gore,
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  Speaker 1: where they have Abrams, they have not gone in on
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  Speaker 1: any multi year free agent deals other than a two
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  Speaker 1: year kind of a deal for Trevor Williams that isn't
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  Speaker 1: going to impact anyway. So that they have now a
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  Speaker 1: clubhouse that doesn't that has, yes, good young pieces, but
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't have veterans who are going to be there
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  Speaker 1: or and are invested in the process going forward. That's
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  Speaker 1: on ownership. They have prevented that from happening, and that's
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  Speaker 1: why I think the decision that's upcoming is is a
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  Speaker 1: two way interview. It's yes, the Learner family saying to
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  Speaker 1: any candidate, what would you bring to the table, what's
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  Speaker 1: your vision? But those candidates have to look across the
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  Speaker 1: table and ask ownership, if I take this job, what
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  Speaker 1: resources are you going to provide me? And that's not
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  Speaker 1: just in major league payroll. That's in R and D,
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  Speaker 1: that's an analysis, that's in scouting, that's in player development,
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  Speaker 1: that's in technology. They are not up to par with
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  Speaker 1: the major league standards in any of those regards. Anybody
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  Speaker 1: who takes this job would want to ask those questions.
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  Speaker 3: Why why though?
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  Speaker 4: Why?
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  Speaker 3: Why? Why are the Learners not spending money they used
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  Speaker 3: to in the past. They used to have a direct
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  Speaker 3: catline just boris. Why why did they stop? Is it
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  Speaker 3: because they want to sell the team? They tried and
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  Speaker 3: they took them off the market. What's the reason? Because
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  Speaker 3: I cannot look at Mike Rizzo. Yes, you can blame
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  Speaker 3: draft picks and you can blame this, but they made
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  Speaker 3: good trades and David Martinez, he didn't change the way
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  Speaker 3: he managed. So I have to look at the Learners
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  Speaker 3: and say, why did you stop spending for no reason
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  Speaker 3: because in the past you've done it. You saw the fruits.
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  Speaker 3: You get Sures or you get Corbin, you get these
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  Speaker 3: guys and you go out and you win a World
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  Speaker 3: Series and then you just turn the faucet off. Why.
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  Speaker 1: So it's a really complex question, AJ and I don't
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  Speaker 1: know that everybody anybody knows the full answer. But we'll
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: get touched on a couple points, like did they get
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: scared by the Stevens Strossburg contract? He opted out of
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: his deal after he became the World Series MVP in
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  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Scott Boris went right to work with Ted Lerner,
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  Speaker 1: the late patriarch of the family, and they came to
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  Speaker 1: a seven year, two hundred and forty five million dollars
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  Speaker 1: deal that obviously was disastrous. I think Strasburg pitched fifteen
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: to two thirds in on that deal. He's retired now
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  Speaker 1: they're still paying him. That really hurt. Secondly, the pandemic,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: which affected everybody, really really took a hit on the
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Learner's real estate development. They're real estate people, they're commercial
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: real estate people. And what was not coming back after
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the pandemic, office space, all that kind of stuff. Mauls
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: We can't quantify what kind of impact that had on
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  Speaker 1: their spending on their second business, which is the baseball team.
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  Speaker 1: But you can't tell me that there's not some sort
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  Speaker 1: of relationship there. And then you had a fan base
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  Speaker 1: that they could not take advantage of the momentum from
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  Speaker 1: a World Series championship because the twenty twenty season was
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  Speaker 1: held without fans. That Nationals team in which they got
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  Speaker 1: the band back together, didn't make the playoffs, and the
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  Speaker 1: next two summers were Sell Schuzer and Trey Turner at
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  Speaker 1: the deadline in twenty twenty one, sell Soto at the
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  Speaker 1: deadline and lose one hundred and seven games in twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty two. That had a real impact on the fan base.
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  Speaker 1: I see it as a chicken and egg thing. They
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  Speaker 1: they want more people come through the turnstyles so they
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  Speaker 1: can then turn it into payroll. I would say, you
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  Speaker 1: need to put some money into payroll so that more
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: people come through the turnstyles and you can really sink
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: it into the team. Kratz.
• 7:21
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• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Barry, how much does the on again, off again potential
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  Speaker 2: sale of the team. How much do you think all
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  Speaker 2: of that has impacted? Perhaps the lack of putting, you know,
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  Speaker 2: good players on the field. In turn what you were
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  Speaker 2: saying chicken and egg getting fans into the stands. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: maybe there's just a lot of uncertainty. How much does
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  Speaker 2: that play a role.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it has felt like since they announced their intention
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  Speaker 1: to sell, which would have been I'm losing track of
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  Speaker 1: years here, beginning of twenty twenty three, I believe that
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  Speaker 1: they've had their foot kind of half in the water,
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  Speaker 1: like they're just putting their toe in the water now.
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  Speaker 1: Mark Learners sat down with me it's FRING training this
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  Speaker 1: year and said, we expect to own this thing for
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  Speaker 1: the foresee of the future, and we're excited about it.
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  Speaker 1: But I've always said, like there has to be an
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  Speaker 1: investment of not just finances, but there has to be
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: an investment of emotions and of time. And I don't
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  Speaker 1: know in a group where the patriarch, the guiding light
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  Speaker 1: is no longer around, if that next generation, which is Marking,
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  Speaker 1: his two sisters and his two brothers in laws, can
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  Speaker 1: get on the same page enough to where they're all
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  Speaker 1: kind of pointed in the same direction that they really
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  Speaker 1: are excited to have the team. They don't feel like
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  Speaker 1: it's a burden. They feel like it should be a
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  Speaker 1: plus for the community, like they haven't been able. If
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  Speaker 1: that's the way they feel they haven't been able to
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  Speaker 1: articulate that, you know, to the public very clearly.
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  Speaker 3: All right, I got ask who's next? Who's the manager?
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  Speaker 3: They haven't. They can't even announce the manager for tomorrow's
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  Speaker 3: game yet. Well, Miguel Chiros So think about it, as
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: in Matt Lee Croy. But then who would be on
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: the list of names for for the Nationals to be
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: their next manager besides aer Kraft?
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  Speaker 1: So I think the questions backwards, AJ like, I think
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  Speaker 1: they should choose a GM, a president of slaw operations
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: early this offseason, start that process now after the trade deadline,
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  Speaker 1: and have that person have a heavy hand in who
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  Speaker 1: the manager is because in this situation, with a club
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  Speaker 1: that's not ready to win on the field and still
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  Speaker 1: needs even its best players to develop at the major
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  Speaker 1: league level, I think building the infrastructure in the front
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: office is more important than who's deciding what left he
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: used in the seventh inning, because there's got to be
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: a structure that supplies them with the quality lefty option,
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  Speaker 1: so you know whoever is here for the rest of
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  Speaker 1: the year, and you know Cairo would be an option.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I look, Matt Lee Croy would be a really popular
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  Speaker 1: choice and fun for the fans. For sure, that person
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  Speaker 1: is just a placeholder and really should be the choice.
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  Speaker 1: The permanent choice should really be whoever the choice of
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  Speaker 1: the president of the baseball operations.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think Barry that's part of the reason that
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  Speaker 2: Miguel Cairo said that he needed to think about it.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously the relationship he has with Davey Martinez,
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  Speaker 2: they're very close, but these are jobs that are few
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  Speaker 2: and far between, and maybe he knows that he's just
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: a placeholder, and maybe he doesn't want to be set
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: up for that, although it could catapult him into another
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  Speaker 2: big league job at a different point. What's your take
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: on that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I think one of Davies problems late in
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: the game is that he loved his coaching staff. He
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: made those choices. They're all friends of his and people
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: always had past relationships with and I think, well, that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: made him very comfortable. It didn't put those guys on edge,
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  Speaker 1: and they really haven't developed. These guys. They're still making
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: the same mistakes that they've made in years past, and
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  Speaker 1: that's part of the lack of development at the major
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: league level, both on the basis and in the field.
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  Speaker 4: Mostly.
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  Speaker 1: So I get that Miguel Cairo might be like, well,
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  Speaker 1: you just canned one of my really good good friends.
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  Speaker 1: I know that there's really nothing in it for me.
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  Speaker 1: I can see the hesitance there. But again, the last
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  Speaker 1: half of the season isn't isn't the important part because
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  Speaker 1: this season for the Washington Nationals at the big league
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  Speaker 1: level is lost. It is who can put together a
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: modern baseball operations department that is on par with others
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: in the industry and is funded by ownership in the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: way that's appropriate. That's a bigger question in my mind.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Any manager that wins a World Series is a successful
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: managerial campaign. Is Mike Rizzo's tenure with the Nationals going
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  Speaker 4: to be seen as successful because he won one championship
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: or with all the money that was spent, our fans
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: going to look at it as it was Okay, Oh, I.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Think it was good. I mean, from twenty twelve to
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, only the Dodgers won more regular season games
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: than the Washington Nationals. That's pretty heady company right there.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Given the resources in LA they won four division titles
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: in that time. They won the wild card that in
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen that led to the World Series championship. And
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: then there were a litany of reasons why things got
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: got torn down, And as Aj said, you know, this
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: guy made a lot of really good trade. I can
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: trades over the years. I can criticize the development over
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: the last decade, like the drafting hasn't gone well, but
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: find out Mike Rizzo trade that he lost. It's pretty
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: hard to do. And that includes the Sodo deal, which
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: is having a huge impact on the Major League franchise
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: right now. All three of Gore, Wood and Abrams have
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: been All Stars very early in their careers. Now with
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Gore and Abrams making the Gordon Wood making the team
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: this year, and you still don't know what you're going
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: to get from Robert Hassel and Harlan Susanna, a pitcher
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: who's lowered down in the minors. So I don't think.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I think in ten years, if they're going to have
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: a reunion of that World Series championship, Mike Rizzo will
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: be back at National's Park with a cigar in his mouth,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: waving his hat to the crowd, and they'll be thanking
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: him for it.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: All right, very well, we have You'll have to ask
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: you what happened to Dylan Cruz. I know he's injured,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: but before that, he couldn't hit.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: What happened?
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: This guy hit everywhere he's been.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's interesting. I think, first of all, take
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: the hitting side. One thing that's impressive about this guy
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: who kind of walks off the bus and carries himself
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: as a major leaguer. He just kind of oozes major
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: leaguer is that those at bats he did not take
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to the field, And that's a really good sign for
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: his future because he played a really wherever you put
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: him in center or and right, he played a really
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: good outfield. I'd say aj that, yes, he's hit everywhere
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  Speaker 1: he's been. I kind of view him as a more
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: of a high floor than a high ceiling guy. Like
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: the chances that he's not a really good major leaguer
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: for a long time are pretty good. But he doesn't
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: have James' James Wood's kind of natural athletic ability. I
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: expect that when he gets back from this obleague, he'll
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: be right back out there and we'll see what the
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: second half yields for him. But you're right, he was
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: disappointing offensively, not quite as much power. Definitely got in
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: some streaks where he was swinging at any junk that
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: was out of the zone and was really an easy
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: out from time to time. He's got to get back
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: in the right headspace and become Dylan Cruz because Dylan
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and Cruise is pretty hitterish.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Very before we let you go, we have a fan
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: question here regarding the Washington Nationals. Mike g wants to know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: since this leadership change has been happening right now with
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: the firing of Mike Rizzo and Davey Martinez, do you
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: think the Nationals are more apt to trade a Mackenzie
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Gore now, I mean, does he become more of a
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: candidate at the deadline now because of the change.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question. And Mike de Bartlow, Mike
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Rizzo's longtime assistant GM who started here as an intern,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you know, thirteen or fourteen years ago, he's running the
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: show right now, and it's a very interesting question for
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: him because at four plus years of service time, that's
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: ex exactly the amount of service time at which they
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: traded Juan Soto, who, as a Scott Boris client they
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: knew was very unlikely to sign an extension. Mackenzie Gore,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Scott Boris' client, would he sign an extension even if
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: he won't. If you hold on to him. Now, there's
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a really good argument that holding on to him means
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: you should get a commitment from ownership that look, if
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: we have this guy still, we need to build around him.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: He's only here guaranteed for twenty twenty six. In twenty
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: twenty seven, what are we doing with our payroll if
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: or are we just going to play two more irrelevant
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: big league seasons and let this guy walk? Really really
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: interesting question for Mike de Barbolow, and I think for
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: ownership as well.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Barry, We appreciate the insight. I know it's been a
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: little bit crazy for you considering everything that's gone on
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: in the last twenty four hours. Thanks for being with
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: the Sunfouled Territory.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you having me anytime.