Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Survival (1/3)

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Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Survival (1/3) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. Hamster with a blunt.
• 0:34
  Pen knife for doing quicker, quicker, quicker welcome.
• 0:40
  Back to our hamster with a blunt pen knife, The Doctor Who
• 0:43
  commentary. Podcast.
• 0:46
  Battle of the Titans commence in the blue corner.
• 0:50
  Joe Ford hamster with a blunt pen knife in the red corner,
• 0:54
  Mark Donaldson in the Time Lash. Hello, Mark.
• 0:59
  Hello. How are you?
• 1:00
  You all right? I mean, that's quite jovial
• 1:02
  considering the introduction you gave me there.
• 1:04
  But hello. If we fight, we will destroy
• 1:08
  this podcast. We will destroy ourselves.
• 1:12
  If we fight like animals, we die like animals.
• 1:16
  We did fight have. You actually, I meant to ask you
• 1:18
  before we started recording, but it seems like a good time to
• 1:20
  bring it up. You got cat food behind you
• 1:22
  there, cat. Food.
• 1:24
  There's like a bot. Is that that bag there on the
• 1:26
  windows? No.
• 1:27
  That's mini eggs. Oh is it it?
• 1:29
  It looks like it looks like that.
• 1:31
  It's like similar design to our cats brand.
• 1:34
  That's why I got confused. Linking into the theme of
• 1:36
  survival, you know, because we live on this very rough St. in
• 1:40
  Eastbourne Town and there's an alley out the back and there's
• 1:43
  fucking thousands of alley cats. He's turned this into Alley Cats
• 1:46
  Central because he leaves them out.
• 1:48
  Dreamies and tuna and all sorts. Oh, I mean any one of them could
• 1:52
  be a predator from another planet for all I know.
• 1:56
  It's getting a bit out of control, if I'm honest.
• 1:59
  Mark, why don't you tell everybody why we are here today
• 2:02
  and why you have chosen this story for us to talk about?
• 2:06
  Yeah. So while we're here to talk
• 2:08
  about survival, the last serial of the classic era and I, I
• 2:15
  think I'm going to set myself a ground draw here in terms of
• 2:20
  like talking about positives. I'm going to try not to go.
• 2:24
  Oh, of course it it, it predicted the modern era because
• 2:30
  we know that that's not all that interesting.
• 2:32
  There's a bit of that going on here, though.
• 2:35
  There is, there absolutely is. But I think what's more
• 2:37
  interesting is kind of what it says like kind of how it it kind
• 2:42
  of accidentally quite an interesting finale to Doctor Who
• 2:47
  from 1963 to 1989. I think that that's kind of a
• 2:51
  more interesting conversation to have.
• 2:54
  And yeah, I suggest this to you a while ago.
• 2:58
  And then recently you did it on Strictly Kill Hamster and two
• 3:02
  two absolute. Roaring trays, I seem to recall.
• 3:07
  A savaging There was barely any meat left on its bones.
• 3:11
  It was like, it's like that poor milkman after the after those
• 3:14
  kittens are there, chewed them, chewed them half to death.
• 3:18
  Like that? Horrible.
• 3:19
  Carcass with the ribs sticking out that you keep seeing right
• 3:22
  in the front of the shots I. Know.
• 3:25
  And you know what? All there was left, Yeah.
• 3:28
  I was, I was fair because I said the Cheetah Planet looks good
• 3:32
  and I said that. Actually, I think I even said
• 3:35
  some nice things about Sophie Aldridge in that one.
• 3:39
  As far as I recall anyway, if frozen.
• 3:50
  Way to freeze. Hello.
• 3:53
  No, no. Keep talking.
• 3:54
  Sorry. I'll edit.
• 3:55
  I'll edit. Two seconds I'll.
• 3:57
  Edit around anything, don't worry.
• 4:00
  Well, no, but I don't want it to kind of keep doing it, so bear
• 4:02
  with. Me OK.
• 4:30
  All right. I've I've pulled it sort of
• 4:33
  further forward. So you sort of bringing it
• 4:35
  closer, but every time you go out.
• 4:37
  There. Now look, I don't know if you
• 4:40
  recall but the first time we did this, remember us didn't pay my
• 4:43
  bill and we had to stop every 20.
• 4:45
  Minutes. So don't worry about it right
• 4:47
  now. It's your turn to inconvenience
• 4:48
  me, OK? Well, I'll try not to.
• 4:55
  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 4:55
  Can I just say again what I can I just rebutting you for a
• 4:58
  second there. Actually, I do think in that
• 5:01
  episode, I did say some nice things about survival.
• 5:03
  I did say I liked the the cheetah planet.
• 5:06
  I love the score. I actually think, and I do want
• 5:09
  to talk about this, Sophie Aldridge is very good in this
• 5:12
  story, right at the end. She gets it right.
• 5:15
  Hurrah. So I think I was sort of
• 5:17
  balanced, but I, I only kicked it out because Rod said he
• 5:20
  didn't like cats and I just wanted to annoy him because he
• 5:24
  loves it so much. That was it really.
• 5:26
  But actually I, I do rather like this.
• 5:28
  I I certainly think it's doing very interesting things that
• 5:31
  have never been done in Doctor Who before.
• 5:34
  Well, that's good. But yeah, I just, it was funny
• 5:37
  just listening to Luke Molloy kind of talk about a lot of
• 5:42
  things that, you know, God love him.
• 5:45
  I don't feel we're like kind of kind of getting to the surface
• 5:49
  of the story. It was all kind of surface
• 5:51
  stuff. Oh, it looks a bit cheap, which
• 5:53
  is kind of the point. Certainly in the Perryville
• 5:56
  scenes, of course, everything looks a bit red, bare and cheap,
• 6:01
  partly because it's the end of the series, but also because
• 6:03
  it's it's bleak 1980s suburbs of London, you know, and I think
• 6:10
  the cheetah planet looks great. I don't know what you're talking
• 6:12
  about. I.
• 6:12
  Mean it also looks cheap because it's classic who and he's into
• 6:16
  who was the new series which I know.
• 6:18
  Is too cheap moments, but mostly that's a much more.
• 6:21
  I mean, I think the new Series A single episode is made on like,
• 6:26
  you know, the budget of an entire season in Mccoy's time.
• 6:30
  Yeah, probably. How how they stretch the money?
• 6:34
  I think it was £1,000,000 a season or something like that,
• 6:37
  which sounds like a lot, but I don't think in TV terms or what
• 6:40
  was it, 12 episodes a season. Yeah, it would have been
• 6:43
  something 13, no? Stretching that money, you know,
• 6:47
  so the production value that's on the screen, I think they've
• 6:49
  got a lot to be proud of. Yeah, definitely.
• 7:00
  You've stopped. I don't.
• 7:03
  Know. Yeah, yeah, you kind of.
• 7:04
  Well, yeah, I don't. Know why?
• 7:06
  Freeze for a second. No, you caught up with yourself,
• 7:08
  so I hope. Yeah.
• 7:09
  And I think you're absolutely right.
• 7:10
  They do have a lot to a lot to be proud of and and this series
• 7:14
  as a whole, series 26, I think is it is the most consistent.
• 7:20
  And I think, I know I said I wasn't going to talk about kind
• 7:24
  of how it influences the modern series, but I think one of the
• 7:26
  interesting things is that the episode count.
• 7:30
  They're so close. They're so close to figure it
• 7:33
  out that actually maybe if we just streamlined everything, we
• 7:36
  could make really strong, coherent Doctor Who and and then
• 7:43
  they get cancelled. So we don't get to kind of
• 7:44
  develop that any further unfortunately.
• 7:46
  I feel like Cartwheel instantly started bringing in the sort of
• 7:51
  the the urban settings and the domestic themes and the
• 7:55
  character work and very gentle arcs, but in a way that the show
• 7:59
  had never done before. And that was all coming to
• 8:02
  fruition here. And you're right.
• 8:04
  Yeah, the axe came down just as May.
• 8:06
  I think maybe the next season would have been the best season
• 8:09
  of Dogs who we had ever had. I think it would have been, I
• 8:13
  think it would have been the most contemporary.
• 8:16
  I think they kind of they're kind of skirting around it in
• 8:19
  this. And then if it was interesting,
• 8:21
  actually listening to strictly when Daniel was talking about
• 8:26
  unit in Battlefield and how Carmel's kind of setting up a
• 8:30
  kind of new unit that he he wants to use the next series,
• 8:34
  which is true. That's that is kind of what what
• 8:36
  he was doing because sort of obviously the babe and never got
• 8:39
  script stages, but the vague ideas were, you know, you had
• 8:42
  that animal welfare idea which they turned into a big finish
• 8:47
  and that is like a unit story. You know what though, right?
• 8:52
  Those Season 27 Big Finish stories, they aren't very good
• 8:56
  and I don't think they are at all what we would have seen on
• 8:59
  the screen. Well, no, because.
• 9:02
  Of the season they're. Kind of written for audio,
• 9:04
  aren't they? And.
• 9:04
  How and how they're remembering it.
• 9:06
  But I think it's very hard to remember what you add in your
• 9:09
  head. I think the best version of
• 9:12
  Season 27 is that DWM article from God knows how long ago it
• 9:18
  was now that Dave Owen wrote where he it was.
• 9:23
  I was like, I feel like it was a big sweeping article that was
• 9:26
  kind of based on what fragments they knew about Season 27.
• 9:30
  He kind of, you know, concocted this whole mad season 2728 sort
• 9:36
  of every episode. And McCoy would regenerate into
• 9:39
  Richard Griffiths and and all of this stuff.
• 9:41
  Oh. Yeah, I have read that.
• 9:43
  Oh yeah. I mean, we've got every copy of
• 9:44
  Detail, but I'm just trying to dig that out, you know?
• 9:47
  It's yeah, it's really good. I need to read it again
• 9:49
  actually. Do you think this is an
• 9:52
  appropriate point to lead the classic series survival?
• 10:00
  Well, not deliberately, but I think there is, there is a kind
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  of neat sort of circle being drawn here because we start in
• 10:11
  contemporary London in the 1960s, We end in contemporary
• 10:16
  London in the in the late 80s. And there there is a kind of
• 10:20
  state of the nation kind of looking at kind of, well, how
• 10:23
  far have we come? How far haven't we come in the
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  same way that Benaronovich in Remembrance does all that stuff
• 10:31
  about. Yeah, sure.
• 10:33
  We all kind of, you know, hold the 60s up as this kind of
• 10:36
  really great progressive time, but there was still a lot of
• 10:39
  racism going on. This I think goes a lot of the
• 10:45
  issues that were maybe swept under the carpet or there's just
• 10:49
  a completely whole new bunch of issues.
• 10:52
  Like to quote one of my favorite ever films with their eye, you
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  know, the 60s are over and we've fundamentally failed to paint it
• 11:01
  black. You know, it's is Blake, you
• 11:05
  know, the hope long gone, and that's where you're getting
• 11:09
  survival. So as a kind of cultural time
• 11:12
  capsule of like the whole of classic Doctor Who, it is kind
• 11:15
  of a weirdly appropriate ending. I mentioned in the Strict
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  episode, the one thing this gets absolutely perfectly, especially
• 11:23
  in episode one, which we'll watch it in a bit, is that
• 11:26
  feeling of a lazy, boring Sunday afternoon when I was eight years
• 11:32
  old. And it and.
• 11:34
  I lived, I lived in Crawley, but I lived in a a nice part of
• 11:38
  Crawley, so these streets just look like my streets.
• 11:42
  So when I first watched this and you see the TARDIS materialise
• 11:45
  at the end of the street, I was so excited when I first saw
• 11:48
  this. Oh my God, the TARDIS is landing
• 11:50
  on my street and just playing in the fields, the sun baking down,
• 11:54
  the shops all closed like it's a bygone era now.
• 11:57
  It doesn't exist anymore. Sundays, I could tell you,
• 12:00
  they're all in my fucking shop on a Sunday, So they're all,
• 12:03
  they're all in the town now. But boy, it captures that well.
• 12:07
  It does really does. And that thing you're saying
• 12:11
  about kind of Doctor Who kind of landing on your street.
• 12:14
  I first, this was the 1st Doctor Who video I ever bought.
• 12:20
  And so it would have been probably 9697 because I'd seen a
• 12:27
  bunch of Doctor Who on TV, watched the TV movie.
• 12:30
  But it was after the TV movie that I was like, right, I need
• 12:33
  to get into Doctor Who now. And I'm a Doctor Who fan.
• 12:38
  And so at some point, probably late, I think it was maybe the
• 12:43
  summer actually, because it feels like there was school
• 12:45
  holidays. I was in time with my dad and it
• 12:47
  was like, right, you can buy Doctor Who video.
• 12:49
  I spent ages figuring out what I want to get.
• 12:52
  And I think in this kind of weird sort of completionist
• 12:58
  thing, I read that survival was the last of our Doctor Who
• 13:02
  story. And you know, when you're that
• 13:03
  age, you want to know how things end like, and then you can just
• 13:07
  go back and, you know, think right, rest I, I, that's why,
• 13:12
  why I got it. And I remember the next morning
• 13:14
  sitting down to watch it because obviously we went home and we
• 13:16
  had to watch like bugs in the National Lottery or whatever
• 13:20
  that, you know, was on Saturday night.
• 13:24
  And then it was Sunday morning watching it and just thinking,
• 13:26
  Oh my God, like that's, you know, it's not, it's not San
• 13:30
  Francisco, it's not, it's, it's just a suburb that I can, I can
• 13:34
  relate to and I can kind of see see your own kind of experiences
• 13:38
  in. When I first got the VHS of
• 13:41
  Survival. This was the coolest thing I've
• 13:44
  ever seen in my entire life, and to my everlasting shame, there's
• 13:49
  a sequence in episode 3 where I used to rewind it again and
• 13:55
  again and again until my mum walked through the room.
• 13:58
  Because I knew if she saw this scene that was so cool in
• 14:02
  survival, she would realise just how great Doctor Who is.
• 14:06
  And I would be absolutely, I don't want to tell you what
• 14:09
  it's. So.
• 14:11
  Embarrassing now. Now I think it's really cold.
• 14:15
  I'll tell you when we get there, all right?
• 14:17
  Excellent. I'll just start saying rewind.
• 14:19
  Rewind. She's not here yet.
• 14:22
  No, but I did. I I thought, I genuinely thought
• 14:25
  Ace was the the best female character I've ever seen in my
• 14:29
  life. Look how far I've come.
• 14:32
  I thought the relationship between her and Sylvester McCoy
• 14:34
  was wonderful. I love the urban setting.
• 14:37
  I thought the master was chilling.
• 14:39
  I didn't even notice that their cheater people look like Puss in
• 14:42
  Boots. I was so absorbed in the story.
• 14:45
  I didn't. I didn't care.
• 14:46
  When I was a kid, I was so much less critical.
• 14:49
  Do you? No.
• 14:52
  It's a shame, isn't it, that we grow up.
• 14:53
  Because even, like, even being a kid in the 90s, so I would have
• 14:59
  been probably 11 or 12 when I watched this for the first time.
• 15:03
  And at that age you can be like performatively cynical, you
• 15:07
  know, because you're kind of on the cusp of being a teenager
• 15:10
  and, and you know, no, that's not very cool.
• 15:13
  But stuff like that never used to really bother me.
• 15:16
  And it still doesn't really, I think because I think
• 15:19
  ultimately, like if it's a good story, you can kind of overlook
• 15:22
  a lot of stuff, which is why Underworld is, is terrible
• 15:26
  because it's, it's not a very good story and it's for the
• 15:29
  ropey effect. And it all combines to just be
• 15:31
  like, Oh no thanks. Well, spoiler, it always is when
• 15:34
  I started writing reviews. So I started examining this
• 15:37
  stuff and pulling it apart, not just enjoying the stories, like
• 15:41
  literally pulling apart and looking at the writing and the
• 15:44
  direction of the actors and the music and comparing one story to
• 15:47
  another. And and then of course,
• 15:49
  podcasting came in, and that's more to blame because now we're
• 15:52
  pulling these things apart more than ever before just because we
• 15:55
  want to hang out together and talk about Doctor Who.
• 16:00
  This this podcast originally started as a loving for
• 16:02
  everything and then somewhere along the line I started
• 16:05
  inviting people on to to slag things off and now look where we
• 16:08
  are. I think, I think all, all
• 16:12
  aspects of that are value. I think it's more interesting.
• 16:15
  I think sometimes talk about like we we were saying before
• 16:18
  recording, like those Doctor Who stories that on one day you
• 16:23
  think are a masterpiece and the other day you could like, I know
• 16:25
  it's not actually like they're way more interesting to talk
• 16:28
  about than City of Death because it's like, yeah, it's really
• 16:31
  good that I've got nothing to say about it.
• 16:33
  It's really good. It's very funny.
• 16:36
  Harris looks nice, doesn't it? I did.
• 16:39
  A moving today, right on the Star Trek podcast about the
• 16:42
  survivors, a season three episode of Next Generation, you
• 16:47
  know with the two people on the planet, there's just that square
• 16:49
  of grass on the whole deserted planet and it's a really good
• 16:52
  episode, right But and it's really competent and it's really
• 16:56
  quite interesting fuck all to talk about because it's just.
• 17:00
  All it's good, you know, and we were like.
• 17:02
  And what do we say about this thing?
• 17:04
  I'd much rather have something like this to talk about, which
• 17:07
  is has has got intelligent themes to it.
• 17:09
  You know the whole thing about the planet that bewitches you
• 17:13
  and awaken something inside of you.
• 17:15
  Now as a kid, I never would have seen that.
• 17:17
  Now those ideas really excite me.
• 17:20
  Oh yeah, it's full of, it's full of big idea.
• 17:21
  And actually the the the other thing is obviously the lesbian
• 17:25
  subtext. Yes, I was hoping you would
• 17:28
  point this out for me. Which we'll we'll talk about
• 17:30
  when it comes up. Is it there?
• 17:32
  I think it is. But I as a as a straight
• 17:36
  cisgender man, I'm not entirely sure if I'm the best person to
• 17:41
  point it out, but hey, I'll give it a go.
• 17:43
  That's podcasting then, at the end of the day.
• 17:45
  It's not just like Ace having a sudden desire for pussy, is it?
• 17:50
  No. OK, All right.
• 17:51
  Or that. Yeah.
• 17:52
  I mean, I mean, I can kind of see that she's a bit bewitched
• 17:56
  by this. That pun was intended, right?
• 17:58
  Yeah, unfortunately, yes, I can. Shows you my.
• 18:02
  Lame. Level of humour.
• 18:03
  Well, look. Should we go into episode one
• 18:05
  and see what that's got to offer?
• 18:07
  Because I'm sure we could do this, make this preamble last an
• 18:09
  hour, but we've got to go to bed at some point today.
• 18:11
  We do. We do.
• 18:12
  So why don't you count us in? All right, well, let's press
• 18:16
  play in 321. I do have an immediate question
• 18:22
  for you though. OK.
• 18:23
  What does this music do to you? It I I love the care for colour
• 18:29
  we. Do.
• 18:30
  Version of attention. It's just great.
• 18:34
  Just that kind of discordant scream at the start.
• 18:37
  I love this like other full title sequence which I've
• 18:43
  brought this sort of telly down from the spare room, so it's
• 18:45
  just massive. So that's why my face is just
• 18:47
  suddenly blue and. Purple, it looks.
• 18:49
  Fabulous. Right now, your face.
• 18:51
  Honestly, it's all you're glazed in the colour of the Sylvester
• 18:55
  McCoy titles he was. And I like the wink as well.
• 18:59
  You know, I love, I love all of this, like this.
• 19:01
  Is my tumbling. Towards you.
• 19:04
  Yeah, fabulous. Because I think when I first got
• 19:07
  into Doctor Who, like 1989, Doctor Who was the closest
• 19:11
  equivalent to kind of the kids telly that I was watching at the
• 19:14
  time. So it's just the easiest kind of
• 19:18
  fit I think. I I thought it was the coolest
• 19:21
  title sequence of all time then, and I still do now.
• 19:25
  Excellent. Oh no, there's that cat.
• 19:27
  There's the cat. Even Mike Tucker's appalled.
• 19:31
  Like on the documentary he's like.
• 19:33
  We just needed like 2. Or three more days and we could
• 19:36
  have got it. Perfect.
• 19:38
  It's not so much the the animatronics, it's the, it's the
• 19:43
  the first soul Manger, but kind of fake Manger.
• 19:46
  So it doesn't feel natural. It feels that they're kind of
• 19:49
  just glued bits of. Opposite problem of that rat in
• 19:54
  Talonzoy and Cheyenne where it's so smooth and silky like, like
• 19:57
  it's just been in the Timothy advert.
• 19:59
  But they do have a real cat because you see it and there's
• 20:02
  there's a wonderful close up in I think it's Part 2 where you
• 20:05
  see it licking its lips. Yes.
• 20:09
  Oh, the Tardis. In a normal.
• 20:11
  Street. Normal, normal streets, you
• 20:13
  know, you just don't see that in class of ducks, hey.
• 20:16
  Right. Come on, you need to now tell me
• 20:18
  why Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldridge as the 7th of Doctor
• 20:21
  and ace of the best pairing of all time.
• 20:24
  Off you go. Have I said that the best
• 20:26
  pairing? Also?
• 20:28
  Actually, I don't know if that's a deliberate choice that I've
• 20:30
  never noticed before. The house next to the woman
• 20:35
  there who's just lost her son, It's all boarded up and there's
• 20:39
  like tape over the front of it. Is that the is that the house
• 20:42
  that got fire bombed by the white kids maybe?
• 20:46
  Or like I mean, I'm sure they didn't have the budget to
• 20:48
  actually make that, but that that's, I've never noticed that
• 20:52
  before maybe. They chose it because they are
• 20:53
  sort of going for this sort of derelict look.
• 20:56
  Maybe they chose it for that reason.
• 20:59
  Look at this. This is exactly the sort of
• 21:01
  places I used to Doss around as a kid.
• 21:03
  On this hill. Definitely just all the rubbish
• 21:07
  scattered around. But why did the cat appearing of
• 21:11
  all? Time.
• 21:11
  The cat in the background was there in the back of the shore.
• 21:15
  Hang on, it's behind Sophie right now.
• 21:17
  Sorry. Oh yes, I see him there.
• 21:20
  I think I think a lot of it is the chemistry, definitely.
• 21:25
  But I think also like after, I mean, Bonnie and Sylvester are
• 21:29
  great as well, but I think after so many years of just people not
• 21:33
  really wanting to be together, it's just so refreshing to watch
• 21:38
  a doctrine companion relationship where they seem to
• 21:41
  like each other. And you can then have kind of
• 21:44
  complicated things like the whole Fenrick stuff and and all
• 21:46
  of that. And it actually hits harder
• 21:49
  because they're mates. That is a really complicated
• 21:54
  friendship, isn't it? Like, Like it is that Professor
• 21:58
  Higgins Pygmalia thing in that he is trying to teach her and
• 22:02
  he's trying to make her confront her fears.
• 22:05
  Yeah. We never quite know.
• 22:07
  Why do we? I mean, we were going to find
• 22:09
  out in the next season. It was so that she would become
• 22:11
  a time board or something like that.
• 22:12
  It's some kind of time board initiation.
• 22:15
  But yeah, but. That's me playing with a ball
• 22:19
  age 8. Years old, just jumping over
• 22:21
  that style there. I can't.
• 22:23
  I can't argue about the chemistry, though.
• 22:26
  I think. I think they're made for each
• 22:28
  other, this pair. Yeah.
• 22:29
  And that's why they keep working together.
• 22:32
  Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I just love how bored
• 22:35
  the Doctor looks. And it's not that kind of like
• 22:38
  Matt Smith. I mean, and I love Matt Smith,
• 22:40
  but you know that kind of like Moffett, well, sort of.
• 22:43
  Chibnall and Power Three really heavily writes how bored the
• 22:46
  Doctor is. All McCoy needs to do is just
• 22:49
  listlessly look at a phone box and just feel a bit sad.
• 22:52
  It's great. Oh, this miserable community
• 22:55
  centre alert with a couple of it's all I'm.
• 22:58
  Getting flashbacks from my childhood now.
• 23:01
  We had a ping pong table in the community centre.
• 23:04
  Oh, it was the most miserable. You don't have you don't have
• 23:06
  wrestling going on. Oh no, I'd love to be at this.
• 23:09
  Look at these men in the great joggers.
• 23:11
  Ought to be well happy. Now talk about a good
• 23:14
  performance, this man Patterson. He's great.
• 23:17
  What's the fellow's name? It's Julian Holloway.
• 23:20
  Gosh, is the answer. Yeah, he is fantastic.
• 23:25
  And like this again, feels like something I think it was, was it
• 23:30
  Daniel on? You said that like a lot of the
• 23:33
  stuff in this is like basically what Ian Chesterton's doing in
• 23:36
  the Daleks. But with sort of 20 odd years of
• 23:39
  kind of retrospect going, actually maybe there there is
• 23:42
  another way, you know, to that you don't have to keep teaching
• 23:46
  people self-defense. Interesting take, isn't it?
• 23:50
  It is. And also, I think in terms of
• 23:52
  like where this is set, you know, there's also the idea that
• 23:55
  the only way that sort of like working class kids can make
• 23:58
  something of themselves is like if they get into sports or if
• 24:01
  they, you know, become, if they just harden themselves up and
• 24:05
  become a hard man, you know, and that's, that's kind of what
• 24:08
  you're supposed to. That's what you're supposed to
• 24:10
  do as a as a man. I think there's, it's really
• 24:13
  interesting, like Ronald Monroe as a writer is writing a Doctor
• 24:16
  Who story where it's the doctor and a female companion.
• 24:19
  And yet it says so much about sort of, well, what we now call
• 24:24
  toxic masculinity. It's really interesting.
• 24:29
  I like how he's such a bully boy and he's, you know, he told.
• 24:34
  Oh, I'm the only one out the worm Stew and all this bullshit.
• 24:38
  And yet, when he is exposed to something genuinely terrifying,
• 24:43
  he. Falls to pieces, you know, and
• 24:45
  it's. Because he's just someone like.
• 24:46
  Schreela, who's literally there, you know, bunging rocks and
• 24:50
  coming up with plans and things like that.
• 24:52
  It's the kids that are doing it. Definitely what's interesting in
• 24:56
  the novel that he's a police officer.
• 25:02
  He's one of the police officers that I think was it that kind of
• 25:06
  turned up at Ace's house when she disappeared.
• 25:09
  And obviously that's not in this.
• 25:11
  He is just ATA guy. But it would make sense on that
• 25:15
  line, wouldn't it? Yeah, exactly.
• 25:17
  Mark down as a missing person. You don't.
• 25:19
  You don't give a toss, do you? Yes.
• 25:22
  I'm surprised that got through. Yeah, but then it is going up,
• 25:27
  going up against Coronation Street.
• 25:28
  And I think this, more than any of the other stories this
• 25:31
  season, does feel like a kind of weird Coronation Street
• 25:35
  alternative very, you know, very surreal.
• 25:38
  It's kind of slicer life, social realist.
• 25:40
  Well. This class.
• 25:41
  There's also massive cat people in it.
• 25:44
  That's. The that's when reality departs.
• 25:47
  Do you know the line that's cut in a minute?
• 25:50
  So when he goes one finger, it's a deadly.
• 25:53
  Weapon. Deadly weapon.
• 25:54
  Yeah. And then it was scripted that
• 25:56
  Ace goes. There's a lot I could say about
• 25:58
  that. And apparently JNT was there
• 26:01
  with his red pen going cut back. That's not going in.
• 26:04
  And she was like, that's such a nice, she says in the
• 26:06
  documentary. She goes, that's such an ace
• 26:08
  line. I yeah, that's the sort of thing
• 26:10
  I should have been allowed to say.
• 26:12
  But yeah, JNT was so weirdly I I always wonder, I mean, that this
• 26:18
  is a whole separate podcast thing.
• 26:19
  But like, I do wonder about JN TS kind of slightly sort of
• 26:24
  stuffy puritanical approach to I to things.
• 26:27
  I wonder if it's a thing of like he's an openly gay producer at
• 26:30
  the BBC and he so he's very careful about what gets into
• 26:35
  Doctor Who because he's because he would be the one that gets it
• 26:39
  in the neck. You know, it's oh, that, you
• 26:42
  know, he's corrupting the youth because he's a, you know, he's a
• 26:44
  gay producer because this is still, you know, not a great
• 26:47
  time for that kind of. In the same breath, yeah, he's
• 26:50
  making it as sexist as he possibly can, and he's kind of
• 26:53
  convinced. And Gary Downey a cherry picking
• 26:56
  the youngest, prettiest twinks. But that's in private.
• 27:00
  I know it's. Such an interesting study.
• 27:02
  That book is amazing, isn't? It it is incredible, yeah.
• 27:05
  Oh, here's the place. I think they're great in this.
• 27:11
  I don't understand what. I think they underplay it, so
• 27:15
  it's just acted. It's it's not done as comedy,
• 27:18
  it's done as a performance. Yeah, they're just, they're just
• 27:21
  two guys running the shop on a Sunday afternoon and there's
• 27:26
  some mad guy wanted a. Shame is in the book.
• 27:29
  This is bookended in the third episode, the last part of the
• 27:33
  book. So where Midge gets his sharp
• 27:36
  suit, Well, it's supposed to be a sharp suit.
• 27:39
  They go, but the Master and Midge go to the shop and raid
• 27:43
  the shop for the money. Yeah.
• 27:45
  And then they get transported to the Cheetah planet and that's
• 27:48
  their out in the story. Whereas here they're just sort
• 27:50
  of here and then they're gone and.
• 27:55
  His cat gets seen. Oh, look at this miserable
• 27:58
  convenience store. It's all coming back to me.
• 28:01
  This is basically Crawley right here.
• 28:05
  Where were you brought up? Edinburgh.
• 28:08
  Oh, gorgeous. So yeah, yeah, sort of sit lived
• 28:14
  sort of mostly lived in the sort of centre of the city.
• 28:16
  So that was kind of, I mean, a corner shop is a corner shop
• 28:20
  regardless of kind of where you you live, they've all got that
• 28:23
  kind of slightly miserable building.
• 28:25
  Yeah, but the ones in the 80s, look, they had a special a
• 28:29
  special doorstep to hell in the Oh dear.
• 28:33
  I I love the. Scar like just creeping into the
• 28:38
  into the shot with with all that kind of sort of like arms full
• 28:41
  of cat food and that's kind of ruining the joke.
• 28:46
  But right on. Monroe never forgets the theme.
• 28:48
  So even in this scene, they're talking about survival of the
• 28:50
  fit. It's, you know, you don't have
• 28:51
  to outrun the lion. I don't think the story ever
• 28:56
  strays away, not for one scene. No, it's all even with Ash.
• 29:02
  When in a minute, when Angie's shaking a a Money Box on the
• 29:06
  thing and the doctor's going on about, you know, track it down,
• 29:10
  take it by surprise before. He's and also she's raising
• 29:12
  money to stop fox hunting. Yeah, as well.
• 29:16
  So it's all, it's all kind of tied in.
• 29:19
  How about breakfast in that very pub?
• 29:22
  What in Peridot? Well, it's in Elon.
• 29:25
  So did. You go because it was in myth.
• 29:29
  Well, Ben used to live around the corner from it, so we went
• 29:31
  for breakfast there once when I was visiting them.
• 29:35
  Unknowingly or knowingly? Knowingly.
• 29:38
  Definitely knowingly. Now, did you?
• 29:40
  This is a very simple bit of camera work I'm going to talk
• 29:45
  about now, but it's indicative of the sort of modern techniques
• 29:49
  that are coming in there now. And Nick Mallett would have
• 29:52
  started the scene probably in long shot with them going
• 29:55
  towards her. What Alan Waring does, he starts
• 29:57
  around the corner and he comes round the corner with the camera
• 30:00
  and swoops around onto them walking in.
• 30:04
  And this will love the shot as well, just the doctor kind of
• 30:07
  rooting around the charity shot while the conversation's still
• 30:09
  kind of going on on the other side of the glass.
• 30:12
  I love this woman, Ang. Yeah, she's great.
• 30:15
  I thought you were dead or you gone to Birmingham.
• 30:19
  But remember what I said to you about that sort of roughed up
• 30:22
  look for us? That's the sort of look I
• 30:24
  thought. Yeah, I can see that.
• 30:27
  Yeah, I do see that. And I think what as I get older,
• 30:31
  actually what I like about this bit and actually the whole sort
• 30:35
  of first part of part one is that feeling of you go back home
• 30:40
  and like nobody's there anymore. Like everybody's kind of moved
• 30:44
  on. And there is a kind of weird
• 30:47
  sort of disconcerting kind of feel to it because you're like,
• 30:50
  well, all right, well, where do I go now?
• 30:52
  And you kind of haunt the old places that you all used to hang
• 30:56
  out. It's, it's really like when you
• 30:59
  get older, it's like, it's like, oh, God, yeah.
• 31:01
  This is actually still quite still hits you.
• 31:04
  It's like the height of egotism, isn't it?
• 31:06
  That you go home and you expect it to be exactly.
• 31:08
  How it was when you left, as if you were the only thing of
• 31:11
  importance. Well, we all do it.
• 31:13
  It's like when you go home to your parents and your your
• 31:15
  room's been turned into a spare. Room or something like what?
• 31:18
  What's going on here? But what a great way for us then
• 31:22
  to get to know Race's back story, to come back here.
• 31:25
  And we're talking about a friend.
• 31:26
  So there's a mystery of her missing friends.
• 31:28
  Then she gets taken to the Cheetah planet, and then we
• 31:31
  really get to know those people when they're under pressure.
• 31:36
  Yeah. Mccoy's having some fun here
• 31:38
  with some cat food. It's the sort of.
• 31:44
  It's the sort of setting I just can't imagine, like, Colin Baker
• 31:47
  walking around here. No.
• 31:48
  That's that's how. Far we've come, just in a few
• 31:50
  seasons. Yeah, I couldn't even imagine.
• 31:53
  Could you imagine Davison doing this?
• 31:55
  No, I mean, you didn't have any contemporary stories.
• 31:58
  Did he want a bit of time? Flight maybe?
• 32:00
  Oh, excuse. Me, just watch.
• 32:02
  This man in the great job is running.
• 32:04
  You can definitely see things moving.
• 32:06
  Oh, he's Anthony Ailey. Amazing in this story.
• 32:09
  He's so good, he's great. What's what's your sort of Ailey
• 32:14
  feeling in general? My Ailey feeling, I think I'm
• 32:20
  not a big fan of him. I think he, but I don't think
• 32:25
  it's his fault. The problems I have with him is
• 32:27
  the kind of panto master. It's the idea that essentially
• 32:32
  the doctor can be anybody can like change his face and have a
• 32:35
  sort of slightly different personality.
• 32:36
  But for some reason the Master has to be this kind of Roger
• 32:40
  Delgado but like twice removed figure, which I think really
• 32:45
  plagues in late. But in this, he's kind of given
• 32:49
  the chance to just act and not going to play a caricature.
• 32:53
  I. Don't think there's one bit in
• 32:55
  this where he he overplays a line.
• 32:58
  Not at. All but for him, it must have
• 33:00
  been so refreshing because, you know, there's stories in the
• 33:03
  studio, them going here, No, camp it up more and more.
• 33:06
  Yeah, you know, bigger. And he's going.
• 33:08
  Oh, God. All right.
• 33:09
  Immortality, you know. Yeah, bless him.
• 33:15
  Now I do need to ask you now about Sylvester McCoy hanging
• 33:18
  around in people's gardens, upsetting the old ladies of the
• 33:21
  area. Yes, so I think like that is
• 33:27
  kind of the doctor's whole deal, right?
• 33:29
  He's always kind of getting into, he's always kind of
• 33:32
  getting into places. I think what's funny about this
• 33:34
  is that it's suburbia where people people will chap on the
• 33:39
  windows. But you.
• 33:40
  Won't boss him hanging out in the bushes.
• 33:42
  With that cat food, I mean, you'd be like, there's some I'd
• 33:45
  call neighbourhood Wash straight.
• 33:47
  I love this woman. You see her banging on the
• 33:48
  window. What?
• 33:49
  You doing in my garden? Oh dear.
• 33:55
  Bless him, but I did. I can sort of see what Luke
• 34:00
  Malloy was saying. We know Path after seeing You
• 34:04
  know Him and Fenrik carving. Chess.
• 34:07
  Pieces out of desert sands to create this sort of thinker.
• 34:10
  Play chess with this all gone. Talk to who, though, Like, isn't
• 34:14
  that also like one minute? He's this kind of lonely God
• 34:18
  who's played chess with, you know, the evil since the dawn of
• 34:22
  time, and then the next minute he's just spooning cat foods on
• 34:27
  our pavement. To capture some.
• 34:28
  Aliens. It's.
• 34:30
  Just talk to us there how that very realistic cat became an
• 34:34
  animatronic cat the second it sat in her lap.
• 34:36
  Yeah. It's got some skills.
• 34:40
  Oh. That what?
• 34:41
  That's a brilliant introduction, that low angle.
• 34:43
  Of the horse rearing up. See, I've never really had much
• 34:47
  of a problem with the cheap people.
• 34:49
  I can see the, I can see the criticism and there's a lot of
• 34:51
  criticism of it in the behind the scenes documentary, but.
• 34:54
  Did you see the pictures they had of the original conception?
• 34:58
  Yes. Where it was basically just the
• 35:00
  actor with just a bit of make up and make them look sort of I.
• 35:04
  Feel that would have been a bit too campy.
• 35:08
  Like that would have been more campy, I think, than the kind of
• 35:11
  teddy bears that you get. It would be two cats.
• 35:14
  It'd be too much Andrew Lloyd Webber for me, I think.
• 35:19
  My only issue is like they look very cute.
• 35:22
  And I don't think they're supposed to be what?
• 35:23
  Like when you read their book, they're bloody terrifying.
• 35:25
  Yeah, they're. Mud dripping from their jaws and
• 35:28
  razor sharp laws and. Yeah, they're not.
• 35:32
  Yeah. Oh look, there's.
• 35:33
  You don't get a sense that in the TV fashion.
• 35:36
  That's Pepsi. Oh, is that JN TS dog?
• 35:39
  Of course it. Turns up a few times this
• 35:41
  season. Do you like this idea of her
• 35:44
  using all this sort of play equipment to duck in and out?
• 35:48
  Yeah, it's quite, it's quite a dynamic use allocation really,
• 35:53
  isn't it? Because otherwise what you're
• 35:54
  going to do is just going to have her like running across the
• 35:56
  field, like it's kind of nice to kind of mix it up a little bit.
• 36:00
  I said in the Strictly episode I thought Alan Warey was the best
• 36:04
  director they secured in the Sylvester McCoy era and that
• 36:09
  seen there is a good example of why, where it cuts from the
• 36:12
  horse's legs running to her legs running and it ramps up and the
• 36:15
  music ramps up and then boom, we're on the planet.
• 36:19
  And he's got a really good sense of where the cuts come between
• 36:23
  Earth and the the cheetah planet, so that it never kind of
• 36:26
  feels kind of weird and jarring that sometimes induct you those
• 36:30
  kind of shots, too. And the Cheetah planet, is that
• 36:35
  filmed in the same place as well?
• 36:37
  Like where all the hills are in episode 3?
• 36:39
  Is it all the same sort of area I.
• 36:41
  Think it's all sand quarry somewhere.
• 36:44
  I can't. Remember, see is it I think.
• 36:46
  Maybe. I don't if it if it is I think
• 36:48
  it's world disguised the special effects in the sky hill, but.
• 36:52
  Yeah. It all just feels sort of like
• 36:55
  bleached now. You know how they do Mexico now
• 36:57
  when they when they go over there and all the colours are
• 36:59
  bleached out, they do a good job of that here.
• 37:02
  The trouble with it, Marcus, it's on video and it really
• 37:06
  needs to be on film. That is the, that is the
• 37:09
  problem. It's like when this came out in
• 37:11
  Blu-ray, it was a bit like, hey, doesn't need to though, does it?
• 37:15
  Because there's not much you can really do in videotape.
• 37:16
  But you know, it's, it's, that's kind of how it was unfortunately
• 37:22
  back in, in the late 80s for Doctor Who.
• 37:26
  Although his move to have all location and all studio stories
• 37:30
  are for was very savvy because it made a.
• 37:32
  Couple of times a year you add. Really stylish location stories
• 37:37
  down on the banner, man. Like, say what you will about
• 37:39
  Silver Nemesis, it looks expensive because so much of
• 37:41
  it's outside. Yeah, it's definitely.
• 37:47
  Oh, here we go. Look more running.
• 37:49
  And in fact, it's quite nice to be running not down some tight
• 37:51
  corridor, but in a wide open. Space, yeah.
• 37:55
  Yeah. And she's really going for it as
• 37:57
  well. That's the proper.
• 38:00
  I I just think the music in these things as well in a minute
• 38:02
  when she falls over and it's doing that sort of exotic horn.
• 38:06
  I don't know what it's called. It's.
• 38:09
  An exotic horn. I think it's as close to sort of
• 38:18
  portraying the hunt side of things as they could go and yes,
• 38:22
  or being acceptable for kids to watch.
• 38:24
  Yeah. And I think it gets across the,
• 38:27
  IT does get across the point of like how horrific it is without
• 38:30
  having to, because, you know, if this was say words, you'd have
• 38:34
  somebody with a hand dangling off or something like.
• 38:37
  That, you know, who uses the tooth to stab the cheetah?
• 38:40
  You'd see it going in and mangled in the belly and you
• 38:43
  know. Yeah, but this, you just get
• 38:47
  enough of a sense of it because although it's going out a bit
• 38:50
  later, I think than than Doctor Who had gone out before, it's
• 38:52
  still it's still going for that that younger audience as as it
• 38:56
  kind of always should, but. I would like to say two very
• 39:00
  nice things about Sophie Aldridge, if I may.
• 39:03
  OK, number one is I think she looks great in this story.
• 39:07
  They they've she's got long hair, so that means when it's
• 39:10
  windy and wild, she kind of looks like a wild thing, you
• 39:14
  know? And that really a second ago
• 39:15
  there her hair was just everywhere.
• 39:18
  Yeah. And I think that's a great look,
• 39:20
  especially for this story. But the second thing is I think
• 39:23
  this is one of her best performances because it's a
• 39:26
  coming of age story. So this is the the story where
• 39:28
  she matures so she can act it up a bit.
• 39:31
  They're not writing her, as you know.
• 39:33
  Boom and all that. They're actually writing her as
• 39:36
  a as a young woman coming of age.
• 39:39
  Yeah, and kind of dragging these sort of reprobates along with
• 39:43
  her as well. It's kind of astonishing that
• 39:45
  this is the same performance as Dragon Fire.
• 39:50
  We've come a long way. But then she's kind of mature,
• 39:52
  doesn't she? From Dragon fire.
• 39:54
  God. Well, Midge.
• 40:02
  Yeah, you know. Come on, you take Midge.
• 40:08
  Oh, wait till he's got. He's gone now.
• 40:09
  Wait till he comes back. What are you always eat is up
• 40:12
  with? I love that this bit's so silly,
• 40:15
  just like McCoy just falling. No, look short from below.
• 40:21
  He's trying to make everything dynamic.
• 40:23
  Yeah, definitely. Is that the real cat?
• 40:26
  I think that's the real cat. Oh, Sergeant Patterson, come on
• 40:31
  now. Yeah.
• 40:35
  Do you know what? In a minute.
• 40:36
  All of these tents and the special effects in the sky that
• 40:40
  looks like an alien planet. Yeah, it does.
• 40:43
  And I love the cheetah person just holding on to just some
• 40:46
  random meat, you know? That's the kid in the grey
• 40:50
  joggers, Yeah. Because originally this wasn't
• 40:55
  supposed to have the master in it.
• 40:56
  That's what I was reading, that originally it was the survival
• 41:00
  story and JNT when, well, we've not done Anthony Ali's
• 41:04
  contractual master appearance and Andrew Carmel went Rhoda
• 41:08
  Munroe. I'm so sorry, but can you put in
• 41:10
  this character? Yeah, I think.
• 41:12
  Did she not say? I think I read that when it was
• 41:15
  a light came out, somebody asked her about the master and she's
• 41:17
  like, well, you know, they added the master, the survival, and
• 41:20
  then they added the master and it was a light.
• 41:24
  Yeah, she must think he's in everything or she's in
• 41:27
  everything. But it was a savvy move because
• 41:30
  like we've already said, that it brings out interesting things
• 41:32
  with Anthony Amy, but. It really does.
• 41:34
  Yeah, the idea he has a line in Episode 2 where he goes, what is
• 41:39
  it that they could take over even a Time Lord?
• 41:42
  You know, the idea that they're above all of this.
• 41:44
  But actually, when it comes down to it, this planet is going to
• 41:46
  turn you into. A a ruthless.
• 41:48
  Killing thing whether you like it or not.
• 41:51
  Yeah, and like, and also I suppose like if this is the last
• 41:55
  Enley story, his whole deal has been, you know, surviving
• 42:00
  because he's he's on his last, he's on his last legs.
• 42:03
  And he's always kind of looking for some way to cheat death.
• 42:07
  And this time he's kind of really got himself into like,
• 42:12
  quite a sticky situation. What's really interesting about
• 42:17
  the book is that there's like a whole page which goes into the
• 42:21
  back story of the Doctor and the Master and when they were kids
• 42:26
  and how this rivalry started and then how it was nurtured.
• 42:31
  And do you remember the killer line?
• 42:33
  I don't know how long ago you read it.
• 42:35
  The. Killer a few months ago.
• 42:37
  The idea is like the the Doctor obviously always won.
• 42:40
  Everything and won all the Akkies but he didn't want them.
• 42:42
  But he always did, and the Master desperately wanted them
• 42:45
  and always came second best. And then, so when they both went
• 42:50
  out into the universe, the Master then thought of various
• 42:53
  spectacular ways to bring him down.
• 42:56
  And the line goes, what is it? And yeah, every time the Doctor
• 42:59
  met him, he got the impression that the Doctor had never
• 43:02
  thought about him even once. Oh, great.
• 43:08
  Oh. God, that's brilliant.
• 43:10
  That's that madman line works like, oh, you're a, you're a
• 43:16
  sad, you're a sad man. I think you're a really sad man.
• 43:19
  I don't think about you at all. Yeah.
• 43:21
  It's just like, it's such a great thing.
• 43:25
  It's the line from Sorry, I'm being very indulgent now.
• 43:28
  It's the line from What You Leave Behind when Kai Wynne
• 43:31
  attempts to murder Gold to cup with the Great Book and he just
• 43:35
  goes, Are you still here and murders her?
• 43:39
  None of us want to be forgotten. God.
• 43:42
  Well, I've got a question to ask you before we out.
• 43:44
  Yes. How is that as a scene set up?
• 43:48
  I think it's great. I think you get so much in just
• 43:51
  a short space of time. Kids are going missing.
• 43:56
  You've got a really good, it sort of sets up a really good
• 43:59
  ensemble cast. You've got Ace and her friends.
• 44:02
  You've got the Doctor and Holloway and not Holloway.
• 44:06
  That's the actor you the Doctor in Patterson as this kind of
• 44:12
  brilliantly mismatched the blacks that you can't wait to
• 44:16
  see more of in the next episode. And then the Master shows up or
• 44:21
  you kind of know it's the Master all the way through.
• 44:23
  I mean, I don't know if I know that just because he was in the
• 44:25
  video cover. And I wonder if watching it in
• 44:27
  89, you would have been like, oh, yeah, it's very obviously
• 44:31
  Anthony Inley behind all those sort of shadows.
• 44:36
  But yeah, I think it's great because it doesn't actually give
• 44:38
  you any sense of, do you know, sometimes you've got two
• 44:42
  stories, like everything you need to know is in part one, and
• 44:44
  therefore it just rags the arse out of it for the remaining
• 44:48
  episodes. There's still a lot that hasn't
• 44:50
  been revealed yet, like why they're taking people from
• 44:54
  Earth, Like, oh sure, they're hunting, but there's like a
• 44:57
  deeper reason for it. What the the planet does, why
• 45:01
  the masters like that. There's a lot of kind of
• 45:03
  intriguing stuff that will bring you back next week.
• 45:07
  And whilst it's sort of ticking off those answers, then the
• 45:11
  planet starts to get under the skin of the characters we love.
• 45:15
  And that's just such an interesting journey.
• 45:17
  And I want to hear your readings on all of that because I think
• 45:20
  maybe I don't think about these things in a lot of depth, but I
• 45:23
  think you do. Yeah, maybe not all the time.
• 45:28
  I don't know.