Latest / Silver FM 100.6 / Quitting is sometimes the right decision. Here's how to know when to walk away

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Quitting is sometimes the right decision. Here's how to know when to walk away · Silver FM 100.6

0:00
Speaker 1: As the political landscape shifts beneath our feet, we're all
0:03
Speaker 1: vulnerable to a well-funded distraction economy determined to take our
0:07
Speaker 1: eye off the ball.
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Speaker 1: We tackle the big political stories of the day and
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Speaker 1: And me, Jen White, on the 1A Podcast from WAMU
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Speaker 1: and NPR.
0:24
Speaker 3: You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey, it's Mary Ellen.
0:30
Speaker 3: Raise your hand if you've heard one of these sayings.
0:34
Speaker 3: Don't be a quitter. Winners never quit, and quitters never win.
0:40
Speaker 3: If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
0:46
Speaker 2: There's all this stuff around quitting that makes it seem cowardly.
0:49
Speaker 3: This is Annie Duke, a cognitive psychologist, a decision strategist,
0:53
Speaker 3: and a former professional poker player. She wrote a book
0:56
Speaker 3: called Quit. And she says, we tend to think about
1:00
Speaker 3: quitting as a failure.
1:01
Speaker 2: Even though it's not failure, if you're doing it in
1:03
Speaker 2: a situation where you ought to be walking away, that's
1:06
Speaker 2: a success.
1:07
Speaker 3: Because you've stopped spinning your wheels or wasting your time,
1:10
Speaker 3: and you get to go do other things that you'll
1:12
Speaker 3: enjoy more or that bring more value to your life.
1:16
Speaker 3: But how do you know when it's one of those situations,
1:18
Speaker 3: when it is time to walk away? Or as Angela
1:21
Speaker 3: Duckworth puts it, when to grit and when to quit.
1:25
Speaker 3: Angela is a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania. She
1:29
Speaker 3: pioneered academic research on grit, which she defines as a
1:33
Speaker 3: mix of passion and perseverance that allows people to achieve
1:36
Speaker 3: their long-term goals.
1:38
Speaker 4: It has to be that sometimes it is better to quit.
1:42
Speaker 4: It's not that 100% of the time we should persist, right?
1:46
Speaker 3: Angela knows a mountain climber who has scaled some of
1:49
Speaker 3: the highest peaks in the world.
1:51
Speaker 4: And one of the things that he and other people
1:54
Speaker 4: like him do have said is that one of the
1:56
Speaker 4: most important things to know as a mountaineer is when
1:59
Speaker 4: you should turn back from the summit before you've reached it.
2:03
Speaker 3: On this episode of Life Kit, how to know when
2:05
Speaker 3: to quit something. That could be a career path, your
2:09
Speaker 3: pursuit of a particular goal, a relationship. It could be
2:12
Speaker 3: lots of things. We're going to give you the tools
2:14
Speaker 3: to evaluate your goals and figure out what they're costing
2:17
Speaker 3: you and whether it's worth persisting.
2:36
Speaker 5: The Lindsay Clancy trial shined a light on how little
2:39
Speaker 5: we know about postpartum psychosis.
2:41
Speaker 3: I went sort of from feeling a little off all
2:44
Speaker 3: day to suddenly believing people were watching me.
2:48
Speaker 5: On the Sunday story, how the Clancy trial sparked a
2:50
Speaker 5: new conversation about maternal mental health. Listen now to the
2:53
Speaker 5: Sunday story from the Up First podcast on the NPR app.
2:59
Speaker 3: I haven't seen my son since 2012.
3:02
Speaker 6: This is Deborah Tice. The disappearance of her son, Austin,
3:06
Speaker 6: is one of the biggest missing person cases in the world.
3:10
Speaker 3: What do you want from me?
3:10
Speaker 7: I just want to solve the mystery.
3:12
Speaker 3: I know that my son is somewhere alive.
3:15
Speaker 6: Listen to Where Is Austin Tice? from NPR's Embedded and
3:19
Speaker 6: BBC Radio 4 on the NPR app or wherever you
3:22
Speaker 6: get your podcasts.
3:23
Speaker 7: Hi there, I'm Brittany Luce. And not to brag, but
3:26
Speaker 7: I host a really fabulous podcast. It's called It's Been
3:30
Speaker 7: a Minute. I love making it, and.
3:32
Speaker 1: I think you'll love listening to it.
3:34
Speaker 7: Over the last year, hundreds of thousands of listeners have
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Speaker 7: been tuning in, and I gotta say, if you haven't yet,
3:40
Speaker 7: you're missing out. Listen to the It's Been a Minute
3:42
Speaker 7: podcast from NPR today.
3:47
Speaker 3: When we were in the studio, Annie Duke, the cognitive psychologist,
3:51
Speaker 3: posed a question to me. Feel free to play along here.
3:53
Speaker 3: I want you to imagine, tell me a band that
3:57
Speaker 3: you like. I said Olivia Deen, the neo-soul singer. So
4:06
Speaker 3: Annie tells me, imagine Olivia Deen is coming to town.
4:09
Speaker 3: She's doing an outdoor concert in Central Park. Do I
4:12
Speaker 3: want to go?
4:12
Speaker 4: Yeah.
4:14
Speaker 3: But then the day of the concert, I actually don't
4:16
Speaker 3: have a ticket yet, and there's a freak weather event.
4:19
Speaker 2: And it's like sleeting, inhaling, icy rain, freezing cold. It's
4:26
Speaker 2: like 15 degrees out.
4:27
Speaker 6: It's so cold.
4:29
Speaker 2: And there's no cover. Like, they're not moving inside. It's
4:32
Speaker 2: still going to be outside. And I call you up
4:34
Speaker 2: and I'm like, hey, I know you like Olivia Dean.
4:38
Speaker 2: I bought a ticket to go to this concert. I
4:41
Speaker 2: won't go because of the weather. But do you want
4:43
Speaker 2: my free ticket? No.
4:45
Speaker 8: No.
4:46
Speaker 3: Now she says, imagine, same situation. Olivia Dean is coming
4:50
Speaker 3: to town and doing an outdoor concert. But I did
4:52
Speaker 3: buy a ticket and it cost me 500 bucks.
4:55
Speaker 2: Are you still so sure that you're not going?
4:57
Speaker 3: No, I'd probably consider it more.
4:59
Speaker 1: Right.
5:00
Speaker 3: I'd probably be like, oh, well, I could wear like
5:03
Speaker 3: a snowsuit, I guess.
5:05
Speaker 8: Yeah.
5:06
Speaker 2: Because you don't want to waste the $ 500. Right. But
5:08
Speaker 2: you already spent it.
5:11
Speaker 3: The point is, I said I didn't want to go
5:13
Speaker 3: to the concert when it was free because I'd made
5:15
Speaker 3: the calculation that it wasn't worth the misery of standing
5:18
Speaker 3: in that weather. In the second scenario, the fact that
5:21
Speaker 3: I'd already spent $ 500 shouldn't have changed that. but our
5:25
Speaker 3: brains are funny that way. By the way, this is
5:27
Speaker 3: a concept known in economics as the sunk cost fallacy.
5:31
Speaker 3: The fallacy is thinking you should stick with something just
5:34
Speaker 3: because you've already put a lot of money or time
5:37
Speaker 3: or effort into it. Stated another way, and I'm pretty
5:40
Speaker 3: sure I saw this on a quote card on social media,
5:43
Speaker 3: if you dig a hole in the wrong place, digging
5:46
Speaker 3: deeper is not going to help. So how do we
5:48
Speaker 3: know if we're digging in the right place? Takeaway one,
5:52
Speaker 3: the fact that you're seriously thinking about quitting is a
5:55
Speaker 3: sign in itself. Annie has talked to a lot of
6:01
Speaker 3: people about quitting, and she hasn't met many adults who
6:04
Speaker 3: say they quit something too soon. Usually, they say they
6:07
Speaker 3: stuck around with something or someone far past that situation's
6:11
Speaker 3: expiration date.
6:12
Speaker 2: Adults always feel like they quit too late, and what
6:15
Speaker 2: that means is that you're quitting too late.
6:17
Speaker 3: Again, our culture defines quitting as a failure. which means
6:20
Speaker 3: we're biased against it. So Annie says when the thought
6:23
Speaker 3: of quitting comes into your mind, especially repeatedly, you should
6:26
Speaker 3: take that thought seriously and set a deadline. Let's say
6:30
Speaker 3: your goal is to have a second child. You've had
6:33
Speaker 3: trouble conceiving, so you tried IVF, in vitro fertilization. You've
6:37
Speaker 3: gone through several rounds, your body hurts, you're mentally and
6:40
Speaker 3: emotionally exhausted, and you're too tired to spend quality time
6:44
Speaker 3: with the kid you have. You don't know if you
6:46
Speaker 3: should keep going.
6:48
Speaker 2: She says start with that deadline. It could be, I'm
6:51
Speaker 2: okay trying for another year. It could be, I'm okay
6:54
Speaker 2: investing this much more money in this. It could be,
6:58
Speaker 2: I'm okay giving it two more cycles or three more cycles.
7:05
Speaker 2: But you have to have a deadline and you have
7:07
Speaker 2: to figure out what that deadline is for you.
7:09
Speaker 3: A deadline gives you time to come up with a
7:11
Speaker 3: plan and build an off-ramp if you need it. For instance,
7:15
Speaker 3: if you want to quit your job but can't afford to,
7:17
Speaker 3: You can start pursuing other work or other careers while
7:20
Speaker 3: you're in your current position. A deadline also gives you
7:23
Speaker 3: a chance to ask yourself some important questions. And that's
7:27
Speaker 3: takeaway two. Interrogate your goal. Put it under the microscope.
7:34
Speaker 3: One of the questions you'll want to ask yourself is,
7:36
Speaker 3: why do I want this thing? Colin Rocker is the
7:40
Speaker 3: founder of For the First, a meetup club for first-generation professionals.
7:44
Speaker 3: He also started a career education platform, At Career Colon,
7:48
Speaker 3: that teaches those professionals how to navigate a workplace that
7:51
Speaker 3: wasn't created with them in mind. And he quit something
7:55
Speaker 3: about a year ago. He quit the pursuit of a
7:57
Speaker 3: corporate 9-to-5 job and started his own business. Now, Colon
8:02
Speaker 3: had never wanted to be a business owner. His dad
8:04
Speaker 3: was an entrepreneur. He owned a plumbing business. And it
8:07
Speaker 3: was not easy.
8:08
Speaker 9: We got evicted and we had all these other financial troubles.
8:11
Speaker 9: And that's what I associated a lot of pain with.
8:14
Speaker 9: running your own business, which wasn't exactly unfounded, but it
8:18
Speaker 9: drove me into pursue a more traditional career for myself
8:21
Speaker 9: that was corporate and more and more white collar.
8:24
Speaker 3: But then last year, Colin lost his job, which kind
8:27
Speaker 3: of poked a hole in his logic that a nine
8:29
Speaker 3: to five gig was a guarantee of financial stability. And
8:32
Speaker 3: at that moment, he also realized he was pursuing this
8:35
Speaker 3: career path for another reason.
8:37
Speaker 9: I was chasing a certain idea of how I wanted
8:41
Speaker 9: to be perceived. And I wanted to be perceived as successful.
8:44
Speaker 9: I wanted to be perceived as somewhat, you know, powerful
8:47
Speaker 9: and influential, right, in some ways. And I thought that
8:50
Speaker 9: if I could stack the right mix of titles and
8:54
Speaker 9: salaries and company names on a LinkedIn profile or on
8:57
Speaker 9: a resume, I would somehow not even really feel whole,
9:01
Speaker 9: but just be perceived as someone who had gone out
9:03
Speaker 9: and made something for themselves. And I wanted that perception
9:08
Speaker 9: of significance.
9:10
Speaker 3: So Colin's advice for you. is to think about why
9:13
Speaker 3: you're on a particular path. Be honest with yourself and ask,
9:17
Speaker 3: are you the same person who set this goal?
9:20
Speaker 9: A lot of times people go about certain things, whether
9:24
Speaker 9: this is joining a sports team, declaring a certain major,
9:26
Speaker 9: starting a relationship, starting a job or career path, and
9:30
Speaker 9: they get further down the line and the original intention,
9:34
Speaker 9: for whatever reason, has now completely fallen to the wayside.
9:37
Speaker 9: And they're doing something more out of inertia than intention.
9:41
Speaker 3: Another question to ask yourself is who are you afraid
9:44
Speaker 3: of disappointing if you quit this thing? That could be
9:47
Speaker 3: a parent or a coach, a professor or a group
9:50
Speaker 3: of friends, a partner.
9:52
Speaker 9: People come to me sometimes for career advice, right, which
9:55
Speaker 9: I'm always happy to give. And they explain this whole
9:58
Speaker 9: situation where they're clearly clueless. clearly not passionate about what
10:02
Speaker 9: they're doing for work. They don't want to continue doing it,
10:05
Speaker 9: but they feel drawn to it or they feel like
10:07
Speaker 9: they have to do it because of someone else's perception
10:10
Speaker 9: of them or what it means to someone else.
10:12
Speaker 3: On that note, another important question when you're thinking about
10:15
Speaker 3: quitting something is how passionate am I about this goal?
10:22
Speaker 3: Angela Duckworth, who studies grit, defines it as the combination
10:25
Speaker 3: of perseverance and passion for long-term goals. And she says
10:29
Speaker 3: the passion part is really important. Because, yeah, if you
10:32
Speaker 3: want to reach a goal, you've got to be deliberate.
10:34
Speaker 3: You've got to put in the reps.
10:36
Speaker 4: But what are you putting the reps in about?
10:38
Speaker 3: I mean, what are you practicing?
10:40
Speaker 4: It should be something that grabs your attention without your
10:45
Speaker 4: forcing your attention elsewhere. to that object.
10:48
Speaker 3: In her classes, Angela will tell students, grit is about
10:51
Speaker 3: working hard, but before you get working hard, I want
10:54
Speaker 3: you to learn to choose easy.
10:56
Speaker 4: I want you to choose to do something with your
10:58
Speaker 4: life starting today that spontaneously grabs your attention, puts you
11:04
Speaker 4: into the flow state. I want you to do something
11:06
Speaker 4: where you feel this resonance with like who you are
11:10
Speaker 4: when you are at your best, your personal values.
11:13
Speaker 3: If you can help it, Don't choose a career or
11:16
Speaker 3: a hobby or a lifestyle or a path where you're
11:19
Speaker 3: going to be hating every moment.
11:21
Speaker 4: Choose things where you're like, what? I get to think
11:23
Speaker 4: about this. I get to talk about this. I get
11:25
Speaker 4: to hang out with people who want to do this.
11:27
Speaker 4: And by the way, when I do this, I really
11:30
Speaker 4: feel in some moral way that this is my best
11:36
Speaker 4: self that I can give to the world.
11:38
Speaker 3: Okay, one more question to ask yourself as you decide
11:41
Speaker 3: whether to quit something. Is this goal realistic? Takeaway three
11:47
Speaker 3: is to gather the data about your goal. Depending on
11:50
Speaker 3: the goal, Annie Duke says, there are different ways to
11:53
Speaker 3: gather data and figure out your individual chance of success.
11:56
Speaker 3: Let's say you're 15 and you want to be a
11:58
Speaker 3: pro skateboarder.
12:00
Speaker 2: I can actually look and say, when I look at
12:02
Speaker 2: people who have made the pros, where were they at 15?
12:07
Speaker 2: Or where were they after the amount of practice and
12:13
Speaker 2: coaching and so on and so forth that we have
12:16
Speaker 2: actually put into this up to this point.
12:18
Speaker 3: Or if we take the IVF example, your fertility clinic
12:21
Speaker 3: could provide stats on how likely success is at your
12:24
Speaker 3: age and given your situation. Then you can decide for yourself,
12:28
Speaker 3: what is my appetite for risk?
12:30
Speaker 2: Am I okay if I have a 10% chance? Am
12:33
Speaker 2: I only okay if I have a 50% chance? Am
12:36
Speaker 2: I only okay if I have an 80% chance?
12:39
Speaker 3: You also want to figure out what this goal is
12:41
Speaker 3: costing you. How much money are you spending in pursuit
12:44
Speaker 3: of this dream or this path? Is it affecting your health?
12:47
Speaker 3: Are you miserable? Are you unable to sleep?
12:53
Speaker 9: I can't tell you the amount of times I've shown
12:55
Speaker 9: up to jobs that I ended up leaving where I
12:58
Speaker 9: could feel the tightness in my chest. I've lost hair.
13:02
Speaker 9: I've grown gray hairs.
13:04
Speaker 3: Also think about what else you could be doing with
13:06
Speaker 3: your time. This is another concept from economics called opportunity cost.
13:11
Speaker 4: It's always a question of like, could I be doing
13:13
Speaker 4: something better other than applying to vet school again, you know,
13:18
Speaker 4: going through another IVF cycle, trying to get that interview
13:22
Speaker 4: or that internship.
13:23
Speaker 10: It's invisible.
13:24
Speaker 4: It's like the thing that you're not doing. So it's
13:27
Speaker 4: not the center of your attention.
13:28
Speaker 3: So think about what quitting could free you up to
13:30
Speaker 3: do and really allow yourself to daydream.
13:33
Speaker 9: It's like making way for new growth. If you think
13:35
Speaker 9: about like, uh, you know, uh, a garden or maybe
13:37
Speaker 9: your plate at a buffet, right? It's like if you
13:39
Speaker 9: have too much stuff going on, there's no room for
13:42
Speaker 9: anything new to come into your life. And so I
13:45
Speaker 9: found that when I created that space, it allowed other
13:47
Speaker 9: things to come into my life, like my role now
13:50
Speaker 9: as a father, even starting the community and all these
13:52
Speaker 9: other beautiful things I've been able to do. There just
13:55
Speaker 9: wasn't a lot of space for that in the life
13:57
Speaker 9: I was living.
14:00
Speaker 3: We'll have more Life Kit after the break.
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Speaker 9: I could lose everything, but it would all be worth
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Speaker 9: it if at least two people here have a spark.
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Speaker 5: So, no pressure.
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Speaker 11: The facts, myths, and dark jokes surrounding Palantir. Listen to
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Speaker 11: Planet Money on the NPR app or wherever you get
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Speaker 11: your podcasts.
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Speaker 10: This week on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, comedian and
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Speaker 1: What is this? A cheap Jeopardy? What is this?
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14:56
Speaker 3: Okay, takeaway four. If you're thinking about quitting something and
14:59
Speaker 3: you're still stuck, Ask a couple people you trust, should
15:03
Speaker 3: I keep doing this? Annie says we've all been in
15:06
Speaker 3: situations where we look at someone else, you know, they're
15:09
Speaker 3: in a relationship or they're in a job or they're
15:11
Speaker 3: pursuing something and we're thinking, what are you doing?
15:15
Speaker 2: They're coming and complaining to you and like, I hate
15:17
Speaker 2: my partner and I want to leave. And then you
15:20
Speaker 2: see them six months later and you're like, so how's
15:23
Speaker 2: that going? And they haven't done anything about it. And
15:25
Speaker 2: you're like, man, they should really just quit.
15:28
Speaker 3: The reason we can be so level-headed in these situations,
15:31
Speaker 3: Annie says, is that we don't carry around all the
15:33
Speaker 3: baggage they do. We're not carrying around their sunk costs,
15:37
Speaker 3: all the time they've invested in this relationship or career
15:40
Speaker 3: path or whatever else.
15:42
Speaker 2: So you can see that situation much more clearly than
15:44
Speaker 2: they can. So guess what? Other people can see your
15:48
Speaker 2: situation more clearly than you can.
15:54
Speaker 3: So the advice here, recruit other people to help you. mentors, peers, friends.
16:00
Speaker 4: When there is a chorus of people who care about
16:03
Speaker 4: you and know you who say, I think you should
16:05
Speaker 4: give up and do something more valuable with your time,
16:08
Speaker 4: you know, I think you should listen.
16:10
Speaker 3: When you talk to these trusted advisors, Annie says, make
16:14
Speaker 3: sure you tell them, be honest with me. Tell me
16:17
Speaker 3: what I need to hear, not what you think I
16:19
Speaker 3: want to hear.
16:20
Speaker 2: Because I want to know the truth for myself because
16:23
Speaker 2: I care about You know, if you're 22, I care
16:26
Speaker 2: about 32-year-old me. I don't care about whether you think
16:29
Speaker 2: you're hurting my feelings right now. So big picture here.
16:33
Speaker 3: We're not saying you should quit that thing. That only
16:36
Speaker 3: you can decide. But we would love it if you
16:38
Speaker 3: gave yourself permission to quit things in general when that's
16:42
Speaker 3: the right choice for you and to make space for
16:44
Speaker 3: whatever's next, to give yourself the opportunity to bloom.
16:49
Speaker 9: It felt for me like a smaller existence before I'd
16:53
Speaker 9: quit this identity that wasn't necessarily serving me in every
16:56
Speaker 9: way it could, but I feel like a much more
16:58
Speaker 9: filled up person. And I feel like I'm showing up
17:00
Speaker 9: better for my friends. I'm showing up better for my
17:02
Speaker 9: family and in my work because I feel more fulfilled
17:04
Speaker 9: by it.
17:06
Speaker 3: Okay, time for a recap. Takeaway one, given our culture's
17:12
Speaker 3: bias against quitting and the way people act like quitting
17:15
Speaker 3: equals failure, the fact that you're still thinking about it
17:19
Speaker 3: is something to take seriously. You may not be ready
17:21
Speaker 3: to quit today, but but set yourself a deadline to
17:24
Speaker 3: make the decision. Takeaway two, interrogate your current path or goal.
17:29
Speaker 3: Ask questions like, why do I want to do this thing?
17:32
Speaker 3: Or why am I doing this? Am I the same
17:35
Speaker 3: person who set this goal? Am I just sticking with
17:38
Speaker 3: this because I'm afraid to disappoint my parents or my
17:40
Speaker 3: partner or someone else? Am I passionate about this goal?
17:44
Speaker 3: And is this goal realistic? Takeaway three, gather the data.
17:50
Speaker 3: Figure out your likelihood of success and whether you're comfortable
17:53
Speaker 3: with that. Also think about what pursuing this goal is
17:55
Speaker 3: costing you in terms of time, money, stress, and opportunity costs.
18:00
Speaker 3: That's all the stuff you're not doing because you are
18:02
Speaker 3: doing this. And takeaway four, if you're thinking about quitting
18:06
Speaker 3: something and you're still stuck, ask a couple people you
18:09
Speaker 3: trust for their opinion. One more tip from Annie Duke
18:15
Speaker 3: before we go. From now on, when you set goals...
18:18
Speaker 3: Make a list of unlesses.
18:21
Speaker 2: So what that means is that I'm going to go
18:23
Speaker 2: for this thing unless.
18:25
Speaker 3: I'm going to try to be a pro skateboarder unless
18:27
Speaker 3: I keep getting seriously injured. I'm going to try to
18:30
Speaker 3: have another kid this year unless I lose my job.
18:33
Speaker 3: I'm going to join the circus unless I don't love
18:35
Speaker 3: it anymore. Think of this like a little contract with
18:38
Speaker 3: yourself that could make it easier to quit when the
18:40
Speaker 3: moment is right.
18:45
Speaker 2: That's our show.
18:46
Speaker 3: Before we head out, If you found something useful in
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Speaker 3: today's episode, there's probably somebody else in your life who would, too.
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Speaker 3: Why not hit that share button and send them this
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Speaker 3: episode now? This episode of Life Kit was produced by
18:59
Speaker 3: Margaret Serino. Our digital editor is Malika Garib, and our
19:03
Speaker 3: visuals editor is CJ Rigolon. Megan Cain is our senior
19:06
Speaker 3: supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our
19:11
Speaker 3: production team also includes Andy Tegel, Claire Marie Schneider, Lennon Sherburn,
19:16
Speaker 3: and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm
19:20
Speaker 3: Mariel Cigarra. Thanks for listening.
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Speaker 8: How do products end up on big box shelves? Well,
19:51
Speaker 8: we at Planet Money pitch the Planet Money board game.
19:55
Speaker 8: I'm trying not to think how much of a big
19:57
Speaker 8: deal it is and how much work has gone into it.
19:59
Speaker 1: It's really big.
20:00
Speaker 3: Is it helpful if I remind you how big it is?
20:02
Speaker 3: It's sort of the whole thing.
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Speaker 8: We go inside the minds of the people who decide
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Speaker 8: what goes on store shelves. Listen to Planet Money on
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Speaker 6: Hey, it's Mike Danforth, executive producer of Wait, Wait, Don't
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