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SHOCKING DETAILS OF 2 MASS SHOOTINGS IN TEN HOURS EMERGE, AMERICA MOURNS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We heard the shots ring out.
0:11
Speaker 1: At first it sounded like fireworks. It was just like dude,
0:15
Speaker 1: and then it went closer together, doo doo doo. So
0:18
Speaker 1: he asked me if that was shot, and I told
0:20
Speaker 1: him yes, because when I had looked out, people were
0:22
Speaker 1: coming in crouching down screaming there was a shooter, and
0:25
Speaker 1: so we took off running. We went towards the bat
0:28
Speaker 1: because the employees were telling us to go towards the
0:30
Speaker 1: BAT because there was a shooter. And when we did,
0:32
Speaker 1: they held open the doors because there was elderly. We
0:35
Speaker 1: were trying to help them out while trying to run
0:37
Speaker 1: ourselves and kids. And when we finally got towards the
0:40
Speaker 1: stock room and they told us to exit the building.
0:43
Speaker 1: When we did, we went into the freight containers, the
0:45
Speaker 1: steel containers that come on the back of the trains,
0:48
Speaker 1: and they told us to hide on there, and when
0:51
Speaker 1: we did, it was about twenty minutes. I passed by,
0:54
Speaker 1: and then we were trying to come out because the
0:56
Speaker 1: elderly and the kids were getting hot sweating. So when
1:00
Speaker 1: it came out, we heard more shots. The employees told
1:02
Speaker 1: us to go back into the freight containers, and then
1:05
Speaker 1: when we went back in, then they told us like
1:07
Speaker 1: ten minutes later to come on out and hurry and
1:09
Speaker 1: go on the side of the building. So we went
1:11
Speaker 1: on the side of the building. Then we took off
1:13
Speaker 1: because we didn't know what to do from there, so
1:15
Speaker 1: we started walking down the side of the road. We
1:17
Speaker 1: went to Accura to go relax and try and get
1:20
Speaker 1: everything situated because the cops were barely coming at that time.
1:24
Speaker 1: Our country in morning after mass shooting's rock so many
1:31
Speaker 1: victims of the El Paso Walmart massacre include an army veteran,
1:36
Speaker 1: a hero mother who dies shielding her baby boy, her
1:41
Speaker 1: husband who had been building them a new home across
1:44
Speaker 1: the country in Dayton, another mass shooting. Dayton gunman Connor Bets,
1:51
Speaker 1: just twenty four years old, had apparently created a hit
1:55
Speaker 1: list of people he wanted to rape and murder in school.
1:59
Speaker 1: This started years ago. What are we going to do?
2:03
Speaker 1: You just heard the sound of Keana long survivor what
2:08
Speaker 1: about the others? What about the others that died? And what,
2:11
Speaker 1: if anything can we learn? I'm Nancy Grace, this is
2:15
Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for beating with us. I want
2:18
Speaker 1: to go straight out to Dave mac syndicated talk show host,
2:23
Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Dave in El Paso.
2:27
Speaker 1: What happened? We had a young twenty one year old
2:30
Speaker 1: man show up at this Walmart anchor store of a
2:35
Speaker 1: mall and starts shooting people in the parking lot. Nancy.
2:39
Speaker 1: We actually have witnesses from inside the store saying they
2:42
Speaker 1: could hear it at a distance. They could hear the
2:44
Speaker 1: shooting taking place in the parking lot. He comes straight
2:47
Speaker 1: into the store, He's got the headphones on, he's got
2:50
Speaker 1: the gun pointed, and he levels it at the first
2:53
Speaker 1: person he sees walking into that store, and then indiscriminately
2:56
Speaker 1: those aisle by aisle shooting and shooting and shooting. It
3:00
Speaker 1: went on. For friends at ABC, Marcus Moore. The first
3:07
Speaker 1: call of an active shooter coming at ten o'clock this
3:09
Speaker 1: morning at the CLO This to mall in El Paso, Texas.
3:13
Speaker 1: The store packed with morning shoppers. Alpact units to the units,
3:17
Speaker 1: please make witnesses say, a man wearing cargo pants and
3:22
Speaker 1: carrying a rifle begins shooting as he makes his way
3:24
Speaker 1: through the parking lot and into the store. As we're running.
3:27
Speaker 1: You could hear because he's in parking lot. So you
3:29
Speaker 1: started running the back. You could hear gunshots changing outside
3:32
Speaker 1: like you clip outside, you like you start clipping, but
3:34
Speaker 1: like that change outside to inside. So he's coming inside.
3:37
Speaker 1: The gunman targeting his victims one by one in cold blood.
3:45
Speaker 1: One witness telling ABC News it was like the gunman
3:48
Speaker 1: was on a mission. Police racing to the scene. I'm
3:55
Speaker 1: sure if there was one or several shooters. This person
3:57
Speaker 1: trying to get out as first responders rush, panic shoppers
4:01
Speaker 1: recording their escapes. Again, the nation in mourning today after
4:05
Speaker 1: two mass shootings. Straight out to Ellen klaurin Crime online
4:09
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter, we're talking about what happened in
4:13
Speaker 1: El Paso and the Walmart shooting, but what about Dayton, Nancy.
4:17
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Less than less than twenty four hours after
4:21
Speaker 1: the carnage in El Paso one around one am Sunday morning,
4:27
Speaker 1: in Dayton, another shooting happens again in the entertainment, an
4:33
Speaker 1: arts district where people are going out to enjoy themselves
4:37
Speaker 1: for a night. A gunman opened fire outside bars and
4:41
Speaker 1: restaurants and kills nine people. I'm just overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed
4:46
Speaker 1: with what is happening. I want you to take a
4:49
Speaker 1: listen to our friends over at Fox News. I got
5:00
Speaker 1: everybody come at the twenty six now confirmed hurt. After that,
5:05
Speaker 1: gunman opened fire outside of Popular Bar right around brown
5:08
Speaker 1: one am the Eastern time. Police day. The suspects had
5:11
Speaker 1: a long gone and war body armor officers shot him
5:14
Speaker 1: within one minute of that first shots fired. Call the
5:17
Speaker 1: Mayor of Dayton, commending first responders just moments ago. Well,
5:22
Speaker 1: this is a terribly sad day for our city. I
5:25
Speaker 1: am amazed by the quick response of Dayton police that
5:28
Speaker 1: saved literally hundreds of lives this morning. The FBI is
5:32
Speaker 1: on scene so far, no word on a motive. It's
5:36
Speaker 1: almost too much to take in. Either one of these
5:39
Speaker 1: is overwhelming, but two in the space of just a
5:44
Speaker 1: few hours. Back to Dave Mac, syndicated talk show host
5:47
Speaker 1: and crime online dot com investigative reporter Dave Mac, it's
5:52
Speaker 1: hard to go back and forth between these two shootings.
5:55
Speaker 1: The closest thing I can compare it to is a
5:57
Speaker 1: mass shooting at the Fulton County court House where I worked,
6:01
Speaker 1: and we actually had to close down part of the
6:04
Speaker 1: courthouse and it took days and days and days to
6:08
Speaker 1: process the scene, to process each individual murder. It's hard
6:16
Speaker 1: to know really where to even start, but I'm going
6:18
Speaker 1: to start back at the walmart to take me back
6:21
Speaker 1: to the very moment that gunfire broke out. What do
6:24
Speaker 1: we know, Dave matt What we know is it about
6:26
Speaker 1: ten forty or just before that, on a day when
6:30
Speaker 1: they had a back to school shopping extravaganza where they
6:33
Speaker 1: have like a tax free day, so thousands and thousands
6:36
Speaker 1: of people shopping for back to school. Oh wait, wait, wait, wait,
6:39
Speaker 1: you just ran a chill down my spine, Doctor Bethany
6:43
Speaker 1: Marshalls psychoanalysts joining me out of la doctor Bethany. When
6:47
Speaker 1: John Davy gets ready for school, he throws his magic
6:50
Speaker 1: tricks a ball, a soccer ball of some sort, a
6:54
Speaker 1: bunch of horrible snack food. I don't know where that
6:57
Speaker 1: came from down his backpack, and he's ready to go.
7:01
Speaker 1: Lucy Rights exhaustive lists, plans days ahead, gets her outfit out,
7:08
Speaker 1: the whole shebang, and most important, makes her back to
7:12
Speaker 1: school shopping list, even though the school says you don't
7:16
Speaker 1: need supplies. That's all she's focusing on. I'm just thinking
7:20
Speaker 1: about what Dave Mack just said, everybody's doing their back
7:23
Speaker 1: to school shopping. Did you hear what he just said, Nancy? Yes,
7:27
Speaker 1: this is a back to school shopping day, which meant
7:29
Speaker 1: the walmart was crowded. It also means that families are
7:34
Speaker 1: enjoying themselves. It's a happy moment, mothers with babies and children.
7:41
Speaker 1: You know, one of the victims was holding a two
7:43
Speaker 1: month old baby and when she was shot, she felt
7:48
Speaker 1: on the baby died and the baby had broken bones,
7:51
Speaker 1: and that is just such a tragic, horrifying image to me.
7:56
Speaker 1: But don't you think, Nancy, this shooter knew this. And
7:59
Speaker 1: what we know of out mass murderers is that they
8:01
Speaker 1: always have an ax to grind against society. They feel
8:05
Speaker 1: bullied at some pathological level. They feel that everybody has
8:09
Speaker 1: something they don't. They want to go down and infamy.
8:12
Speaker 1: They want their crimes to bring notoriety to them. So
8:17
Speaker 1: what better way to do that than to go into
8:20
Speaker 1: a happy place where people are preparing for an happy event,
8:24
Speaker 1: which is going back to school. Doctor Bethany, you're so right.
8:27
Speaker 1: Take a listen to her friend at NBC is Miguel
8:29
Speaker 1: elma Gear. At about ten forty am on Saturday morning,
8:33
Speaker 1: we are told a lone gunmen walked into that parking
8:36
Speaker 1: lot and began to open fire. There was some three
8:39
Speaker 1: thousand people, upwards of three thousand people inside that walmart
8:42
Speaker 1: when he made his way in and began to unload
8:44
Speaker 1: on families who were doing back to school shopping. The suspect,
8:48
Speaker 1: we're told, was armed with an AK forty seven style
8:50
Speaker 1: assault rifle and just began to unload bullet after bullet
8:54
Speaker 1: on anyone he could see and all some twenty people
8:56
Speaker 1: were killed and at least twenty six people were wound.
9:00
Speaker 1: Did police say that the suspect then eventually surrendered to
9:03
Speaker 1: officers without incident. Police did not fire a single shot
9:06
Speaker 1: at the gunman. The gunman has been identified as twenty
9:09
Speaker 1: one year old Patrick Cruci Crusie. US Police say he
9:12
Speaker 1: left behind a racist manifesto. They are investigating that this
9:16
Speaker 1: was perhaps a hate crime. That certainly seems to be
9:19
Speaker 1: a possibility at this point. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
9:35
Speaker 1: We heard like shots like three shots boom, boom, boom,
9:41
Speaker 1: one two three exectively. Units to go ahead and start
9:44
Speaker 1: responding to the health support at the walmart, Get people
9:46
Speaker 1: at doorways, get people holding holly who wounded, ranging an
9:49
Speaker 1: age from just two to eighty two years old. Some
9:52
Speaker 1: of the injured scene here being rolled out on carts
9:55
Speaker 1: to get medical health. Customers and other stores at the
9:59
Speaker 1: clovistom quickly rushed out while officers worked to find the shooter.
10:03
Speaker 1: I hear them poster and louder, and that's when I realize,
10:06
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, this is like seriously. The suspect, who
10:08
Speaker 1: allegedly drove more than six hundred miles from Allan, Texas
10:12
Speaker 1: taken into custody just over twenty minutes after the first
10:15
Speaker 1: shots rang out. The person there was taken into cut City,
10:17
Speaker 1: was taken into custody without incident, and no law enforcement
10:21
Speaker 1: personnel fired their weapons. Law enforcement officials tell us the
10:24
Speaker 1: alleged shooter is twenty one year old Patrick Crucius of Allen, Texas,
10:28
Speaker 1: also saying that in the salt style rifle similar to
10:30
Speaker 1: an AK forty seven and several magazines were secured at
10:33
Speaker 1: the scene, and that after he was taken into custody,
10:36
Speaker 1: the suspect allegedly told investigators he wanted to shoot as
10:39
Speaker 1: many Mexicans it's possible. Oh it just breaks my heart.
10:43
Speaker 1: It breaks my heart to hear it. That's her friend
10:46
Speaker 1: at NBC, Miguel mcgearre. Everyone trying to absorb what has
10:52
Speaker 1: happened over the last seventy two hours. I Meancy Grace,
10:57
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
11:00
Speaker 1: to go straight out to David Kats, active shoot or
11:02
Speaker 1: Response expert, former DA and the CEO of Global Security Group, David,
11:08
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. It's I'm overwhelmed. I'm
11:13
Speaker 1: overwhelmed because I'm in my mind being taken back so
11:17
Speaker 1: many crime scenes. I've helped process and analyze of mass shootings,
11:21
Speaker 1: and when I say mass shootings, I'm talking about maybe
11:25
Speaker 1: seven or eight people, nothing on the scale of what
11:29
Speaker 1: we're talking about today. What can you tell me? If anything?
11:33
Speaker 1: I hardly know how to divide these two up, but
11:36
Speaker 1: at the moment happened to be because we started on
11:39
Speaker 1: school supplies talking about the Walmart shooting and I'm just
11:43
Speaker 1: thinking about out of the bloom this happening. What can
11:48
Speaker 1: you tell me about the shooter or Davecats. They really
11:51
Speaker 1: haven't released so much other than the manifesto, which which
11:55
Speaker 1: gives his racist ideology. Okay, wait wait wait, wait right there,
11:59
Speaker 1: right there, when we talk about you say they haven't
12:01
Speaker 1: released that much. Well, you know what said the same
12:05
Speaker 1: thing about unibomber. We didn't know much about him. Well,
12:09
Speaker 1: you know, I know you're the expert, but I know
12:11
Speaker 1: this technical legal term bs. But somebody who writes um manifesto,
12:17
Speaker 1: in writing it tells me a lot about the person.
12:21
Speaker 1: With every word they write. We know his age, we
12:25
Speaker 1: know where he's from, we know everything he's divulged his manifesto.
12:29
Speaker 1: I'd say we've got a pretty good idea of who
12:31
Speaker 1: he is. David Katz, Well, you see this little the
12:37
Speaker 1: more of the more critical in fact that what I
12:40
Speaker 1: would say relate to either this in this case and
12:43
Speaker 1: the failure to stop it would be what type of
12:47
Speaker 1: behavior manifested itself prior to the attack. You know, for example,
12:51
Speaker 1: even if law enforcement had access to the manifesto, Okay,
12:56
Speaker 1: you go to the police, you go to the FBI,
12:58
Speaker 1: you go to any any law enforcement agents. Say look,
13:00
Speaker 1: with this guy's writing, he gets a visit. There is
13:04
Speaker 1: no there's no action that at this point in time
13:07
Speaker 1: we can take. Our criminal justice system is not set
13:09
Speaker 1: up for you know, this is a really scary guy.
13:12
Speaker 1: You know, he's going to do something. We believe he's
13:14
Speaker 1: going to do something at some point in the future.
13:17
Speaker 1: We have to figure away as a society. They say, okay,
13:20
Speaker 1: so one like this doesn't have access to a firearm,
13:23
Speaker 1: someone like this has perhaps perhaps some sort of some
13:25
Speaker 1: sort of forced intervention because we know they're taking time bumps.
13:29
Speaker 1: And that's the problem. We do not deal with the
13:32
Speaker 1: mad dogs in our society. We did not deal with
13:34
Speaker 1: the psychologically impaired in the society. We just say, well,
13:37
Speaker 1: I guess we can't do anything until they do something.
13:40
Speaker 1: And that's the problem. That's why these and things happen
13:42
Speaker 1: repeatedly and without exception. I know they say it's only
13:45
Speaker 1: eighty percent, forget it, without exception. When you look at
13:48
Speaker 1: these incidents, you go back and somebody's saying, you know, yeah,
13:51
Speaker 1: like gosh, you know, like what the tape of the
13:52
Speaker 1: dating shooter they said right away, they said, well, he
13:54
Speaker 1: looks like there's no way to predict it. We couldn't
13:56
Speaker 1: have stop that. He's a normal guy. No he wasn't.
13:58
Speaker 1: Now we find out about about the murder list, the rapists,
14:02
Speaker 1: the question is what could we have done about it?
14:04
Speaker 1: This is what I know about the Old Passo shooting.
14:06
Speaker 1: Nineteen minutes before the first nine one one call was
14:10
Speaker 1: made about the mass shooting at a back to school
14:13
Speaker 1: cell at Walmart, an anti immigrant manifesto appears on line.
14:21
Speaker 1: Of course, all the victims in the shooting are not immigrants.
14:25
Speaker 1: The manifesto speaks of a quote invasion of Texas and
14:30
Speaker 1: it details a very offensive plan to separate America into
14:37
Speaker 1: territories by race. I was gonna let that's so kin
14:45
Speaker 1: just for a moment. Authorities now scrutinizing the nearly three
14:53
Speaker 1: thousand word manifesto to try to figure it out out
14:56
Speaker 1: whether it's written by him. It is same guy who
15:00
Speaker 1: twenty people and injured over two dozen. Now police were
15:05
Speaker 1: interviewing this guy, twenty one year old Patrick Crusius, a
15:09
Speaker 1: white male from Alan, Texas, almost ten hours away from
15:15
Speaker 1: the Walmart. Now, what brought him to that shopping center?
15:19
Speaker 1: That's one thing investigators want to know. The manifesto. I
15:23
Speaker 1: don't know why we always calling a manifesto. It's just
15:26
Speaker 1: hate rant. It says things like, if we can get enough,
15:30
Speaker 1: get rid of enough people, our way of life can
15:33
Speaker 1: be more sustainable. Okay, I want to go straight. I
15:36
Speaker 1: need to shrink in a major way. Out to doctor
15:39
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, help me out, Bethany well with these
15:42
Speaker 1: hate manifestos. Actually, I agree with you. Manifesto is a
15:46
Speaker 1: very fancy term for a hate rant. What we see
15:50
Speaker 1: is something that we call in my field, trite, rehearsed
15:54
Speaker 1: and stereotyped speech, and what that means psychologically is that
15:59
Speaker 1: the person acts like they're writing something deep, as if
16:03
Speaker 1: there's a deep emotional valance, as if they have a
16:05
Speaker 1: point to make, but in fact it's very shallow. It's
16:09
Speaker 1: like a thin veneer of verbal sophistication that really covers
16:15
Speaker 1: a hateful personality type. And the hate usually stems, as
16:20
Speaker 1: I said earlier, from this pathological conviction that everybody is
16:25
Speaker 1: against them, that they have been given a raw deal
16:29
Speaker 1: in life that finally, through a mass murder, they can
16:35
Speaker 1: bring notoriety to all their grievances against society. And I
16:40
Speaker 1: think one of the reasons we're seeing this increasingly is
16:44
Speaker 1: that there is a very strong copycat quality to all
16:49
Speaker 1: of these mass murders. They are really incited by watching
16:52
Speaker 1: the news, going online, looking at other crimes, and it
16:57
Speaker 1: gives them the courage and emboldens them to carry out
17:01
Speaker 1: their hateful mission. Joining me right now a veteran California prosecutor,
17:05
Speaker 1: author of red Flags on Amazon, Wendy Patrick. Wendy, I've
17:11
Speaker 1: been taking a long, hard look at what we're learning
17:14
Speaker 1: from this guy's manifesto, which to me is like a
17:16
Speaker 1: nearly three thousand word confession. Very often you hear experts say, well,
17:21
Speaker 1: you can't tell you had no idea this was coming.
17:24
Speaker 1: I disagree. I think that there are signs. Just like
17:28
Speaker 1: the Florida school shooter, there are so many signs. I
17:36
Speaker 1: agree with David Katz. So often we just don't want
17:39
Speaker 1: to look at the signs. What do you make I'm
17:42
Speaker 1: talking right now about the Walmart shooter. What do you think? Yeah,
17:46
Speaker 1: I have to say that when you leave behind, and
17:48
Speaker 1: I agree with both you and doctor bethany manifesto makes
17:51
Speaker 1: it sound unduly sophisticated. It is actually a very crude
17:54
Speaker 1: planet's laid out. But the signs that are left in
17:57
Speaker 1: writings like that are more than simply trying to deduce
18:00
Speaker 1: motive after the fact. They're often what in the threat
18:02
Speaker 1: assessment community we call leakage. You can read these things
18:06
Speaker 1: and pretty much see that many of these shooters say
18:09
Speaker 1: what they're going to do before they say it. Remember
18:11
Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara shooter, Elliott Roger actually the night before
18:14
Speaker 1: videotaped himself saying what he was going to do the
18:16
Speaker 1: next day. The problem, and many of us know this
18:20
Speaker 1: having done this type of work, is how do you
18:22
Speaker 1: connect those dots before it happens, instead of doing what
18:26
Speaker 1: we're doing today and everybody across the country reconstructing what
18:29
Speaker 1: happened after the fact. So, in terms of red flags,
18:31
Speaker 1: I think you've nailed it. A couple of you have
18:33
Speaker 1: already talked about some of these things, grievance, collecting, pathological narcissism,
18:38
Speaker 1: writing these manifestos, they don't write themselves overnight, but what
18:41
Speaker 1: we also see as plagiarism from prior manifestos. So when
18:45
Speaker 1: you have this sort of celebrity worship of people that
18:48
Speaker 1: have done this before, all of this strung together, Nancy
18:51
Speaker 1: could relate to some of these red flags that we
18:54
Speaker 1: can in fact see before the fact, if we're all
18:56
Speaker 1: looking at listening. Over the years, I have investigated, prosecuted,
19:05
Speaker 1: and covered literally thousands of cases, and over those years,
19:12
Speaker 1: some cases just stick with me. Some cases have affected
19:17
Speaker 1: me so deeply. I believe I have to help the
19:22
Speaker 1: victims and their families. Our new show, Injustice with Nancy Grace,
19:28
Speaker 1: is coming to Oxygen to investigate cases bring to light
19:33
Speaker 1: what's been buried in all the chaos. Our show brings
19:38
Speaker 1: attention to families that deserve to tell their story, two
19:41
Speaker 1: cases that deserve to be heard, and to victims that
19:45
Speaker 1: deserve a voice. Join us as we untangle what went wrong,
19:51
Speaker 1: what went right, and what can still be done. Injustice
19:55
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace watch now on demand only on Oxygen,
20:00
Speaker 1: the true network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
20:10
Speaker 1: There was a horrific scene outside the store. Day's customers
20:13
Speaker 1: recorded the aftermath of the mass shooting. Dead bodies could
20:17
Speaker 1: be seen near cars, people gunned down as the loaded
20:20
Speaker 1: groceries and other items into their vehicles. Terrified customers took
20:25
Speaker 1: cover as shots rang out. El Paso's police chief says
20:32
Speaker 1: the nine one one call came in just before eleven
20:35
Speaker 1: am local time, Sources tells CBS News. Crucius posted an
20:39
Speaker 1: online manifesto which may point to a motive. In it,
20:43
Speaker 1: he rants about the changing demographics of Texas and a
20:46
Speaker 1: plot by Democrats to conspire with immigrants. He also blasted
20:51
Speaker 1: Republicans and corporations. You were hearing from our friend at CBS.
20:55
Speaker 1: That was Jeff Nijin. Before we could even absorb what
21:00
Speaker 1: was happening at the Walmart shooting at the height of
21:03
Speaker 1: the morning shopping from back to school, we hear about
21:08
Speaker 1: another shooting. At least nine dead, dozens injured. After a
21:11
Speaker 1: shooting in Dayton, Ohio, people down, one man capturing the
21:20
Speaker 1: sound of gunfire as he sat in his car. Police
21:25
Speaker 1: say the shooter, wearing body armor and armed with a
21:28
Speaker 1: long gun and high capacity magazines, open fire just after
21:31
Speaker 1: one am, as people were out at restaurants and bars
21:34
Speaker 1: in a popular area of downtown. Officers already patrolling nearby
21:38
Speaker 1: quickly responded, blocking off roads Right now, we got several down,
21:44
Speaker 1: Paramedics rushing to get first aid to some victims out
21:47
Speaker 1: on the street. Most of us can't get into our
21:49
Speaker 1: cars because there were bodies scattered follower across the street
21:53
Speaker 1: from our cars, so we can't. People that were shot
21:56
Speaker 1: hit ncent people, police killing the gunmen working on identifying
22:01
Speaker 1: the suspect to see what the possible motivation might have been.
22:04
Speaker 1: I can hardly take in what I'm hearing. That was
22:07
Speaker 1: our friend ABC reporter Maggie Ruly that moment when brave
22:12
Speaker 1: cops save hundreds by confronting the Dayton gunman, twenty four
22:17
Speaker 1: year old Connor Bets. I hate to even say his name.
22:22
Speaker 1: And what we are learning about the Dayton shooter is
22:26
Speaker 1: that he has long had plans to shoot up a school,
22:30
Speaker 1: that he bullied people, that he was once suspended for
22:34
Speaker 1: drawing up a hit list on the bathroom wall of
22:36
Speaker 1: girls he wanted to kill, making lists of girls he
22:40
Speaker 1: wanted to rate, people he wanted to torture. Now, of course,
22:44
Speaker 1: this morning, you know how I hate politics. I never
22:47
Speaker 1: get involved. I think all politicians are lying, every single
22:51
Speaker 1: one of them, whether a Democrat or a Republican or
22:55
Speaker 1: a Green. I just I don't like to politicize crime.
22:58
Speaker 1: And this morning, everybody's blame Trump for the shootings. Well,
23:02
Speaker 1: this guy had a hit list years ago. So what
23:04
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? Blame Obama? Do you have to
23:07
Speaker 1: go back even further and blame Bush? I mean, I
23:10
Speaker 1: can't blame anybody but the shooters. I can't unless somebody
23:15
Speaker 1: can explain to me how I can to Ellen colaurin
23:18
Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, Okay, we're just trying
23:22
Speaker 1: to absorb what happened in El Paso, and then we
23:25
Speaker 1: hear about another mass shooting. What happened in the Dayton shooting.
23:29
Speaker 1: That's great, Nancy, just you know, just hours after the
23:31
Speaker 1: Walmart shooting. It's a Saturday night. It's around one am. Friends, family,
23:36
Speaker 1: couples are out having a Saturday night out on the town.
23:40
Speaker 1: It's in a nice neighborhood. It's Dayton, Ohio. Filled with restaurants, galleries, clouds, bars.
23:45
Speaker 1: People are walking up the sidewalks, people are inside restaurants.
23:48
Speaker 1: It's a warm mate and then it's had to who
23:52
Speaker 1: felt like out of complete nowhere to the victims of
23:54
Speaker 1: the witnesses, This man whose wearing body are are wearing
23:58
Speaker 1: a bask just opened fire. He starts on the sidewalk.
24:03
Speaker 1: He's trying to make his way into a bar called
24:06
Speaker 1: Dead Peppers. He opened fire. He manages to shoot several people.
24:11
Speaker 1: Nine people have died. But police were able because there
24:14
Speaker 1: were officers already patrolling the area. Police were able to
24:17
Speaker 1: stop him in twenty seconds, but he was still able
24:22
Speaker 1: to kill nine people. Back to expert David Katz ad
24:26
Speaker 1: to shoot a response expert former da CEO of Global
24:31
Speaker 1: security group, What can you tell me about this guy?
24:33
Speaker 1: We talk about the police response for a minute. Here
24:36
Speaker 1: in New York City police officers are getting water thrown
24:38
Speaker 1: on them. And listen to what the cops do under
24:40
Speaker 1: these circumstances. They take the shooter out. So we know
24:44
Speaker 1: from what little has been been released so far that
24:47
Speaker 1: this guy would they say he has a dark energy
24:49
Speaker 1: about him. That's nonsense. What they meant was he was
24:52
Speaker 1: frightening to people. He threatened people. They knew with certainty
24:56
Speaker 1: that he had he had intent to harm not only
25:00
Speaker 1: one or two people, but many people. And yet we
25:02
Speaker 1: as a society cannot figure out some way to stop
25:06
Speaker 1: these people from getting access to firearms to monitor these people.
25:09
Speaker 1: It's it's you know, when you when you go to
25:11
Speaker 1: a gunshop, for example, and you purchase a firearm. When
25:14
Speaker 1: you go through your checklist with the ATF form, they
25:16
Speaker 1: ask you, have you ever been arrested? Have you ever
25:18
Speaker 1: been taken you're taking any sort of drugs that are
25:20
Speaker 1: associated with psychological conditions? You could check no, no, no,
25:23
Speaker 1: no no. The criminal background check will devolve that you
25:26
Speaker 1: have been arrested and you will not get access to
25:28
Speaker 1: a firearm. How do we make sure that someone like
25:31
Speaker 1: a school psychologist or psychiatrist, or someone who has encountered
25:35
Speaker 1: people like this during their school years, during employment, during
25:38
Speaker 1: some period of time in life, to say, look, we
25:42
Speaker 1: need to we need to make sure these people don't
25:44
Speaker 1: get access to a firearm, or at least, you know,
25:46
Speaker 1: to make sure everyone is due process rights, to make
25:48
Speaker 1: sure there is a second look before we complete those sales.
25:51
Speaker 1: You know, one thing I can't get away from one
25:53
Speaker 1: important fact. To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of LA
25:57
Speaker 1: his first victim was his own sister, happy Nancy. I
26:01
Speaker 1: have been thinking about that all morning. I keep wondering,
26:05
Speaker 1: was he so indiscriminate he shot at everybody and didn't
26:10
Speaker 1: care if it was his sister? Or if I think
26:13
Speaker 1: of the psychological profile of these mass murders, they have
26:18
Speaker 1: such a history of feeling victimized. And again I keep
26:21
Speaker 1: using the word pathological, because not every victim becomes a shooter, right,
26:25
Speaker 1: but shooters always feel like victims and like as if
26:32
Speaker 1: everybody in society is against them. And did he have
26:35
Speaker 1: an axe to grind against his own sister? Was this
26:39
Speaker 1: where the sense of being at an inferior level and
26:43
Speaker 1: bullied and persecuted. Did it begin in the context, in
26:47
Speaker 1: the matrix of his own family? And you know, Nancy,
26:50
Speaker 1: he was he was wearing body armor, and he drove
26:53
Speaker 1: with his sister to the spot, with his sister and
26:56
Speaker 1: a friend. Can you imagine she was sitting in the
26:59
Speaker 1: car with her own brother who had unintent to murder?
27:02
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole It's such a frightening thought to me.
27:06
Speaker 1: And the panel is talking about how do we know
27:10
Speaker 1: that these men there are always men are going to
27:13
Speaker 1: become mass murderers. They always write about it, Nancy. They
27:16
Speaker 1: always have manifestos, they always confess they are blabbermouths. They
27:21
Speaker 1: blab to their friends, they write letters, they go on YouTube,
27:25
Speaker 1: they go online. It's pretty easy to know when somebody's
27:28
Speaker 1: going to become a mass murderer because they're always talking
27:30
Speaker 1: about it too. Karen Smith joining me, forensics expert and
27:35
Speaker 1: founder of Bare Bones Consulting. I keep going back in
27:38
Speaker 1: my mind to mass shootings that I've handled or help
27:42
Speaker 1: process or analyze. How do you make any sense Let's
27:46
Speaker 1: just start with the Dayton shooting. How do you make
27:49
Speaker 1: sense of it forensically and what can you learn? You know,
27:52
Speaker 1: Nancy I'm trying to wrap my head around this. You know,
27:54
Speaker 1: the at the Neglub in Dayton. You know, you start,
27:58
Speaker 1: you make the crime scene as big as you can's
28:00
Speaker 1: the city block. It's a city block. You know you're
28:02
Speaker 1: dealing with an AR fifteen rifle. Those those projectiles travel fast,
28:07
Speaker 1: and they travel far. They can penetrate multiple surfaces. So
28:11
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to be reconstructing every trajectory.
28:14
Speaker 1: You're not going to be reconstructing every blood stain like
28:17
Speaker 1: you would in a domestic related homicide. In the house
28:33
Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace, there was a lot of
28:38
Speaker 1: people downtown. It's usually alive night on Saturdays about town.
28:42
Speaker 1: We got to the end of the line. Once we
28:44
Speaker 1: got to the end of the line, which is near
28:46
Speaker 1: the corner, you heard one gunshot. You heard boom, So
28:50
Speaker 1: we're looking around. We didn't know what it was. It
28:52
Speaker 1: didn't sound like a familiar sound in the buildings around
28:54
Speaker 1: here and made a kind of echo off and then
28:56
Speaker 1: you hear a second boom, and then after that is
28:58
Speaker 1: complete rapid fire, just for like one minute. Once the
29:01
Speaker 1: gunshots started like coming rapidly, you just see the crowd
29:04
Speaker 1: running west, we running down towards to get out of
29:08
Speaker 1: the Oregon and you can just see as I turned around,
29:10
Speaker 1: my friend was behind me. He wasn't with me. So
29:12
Speaker 1: when I turned around, I'm looking for him and I
29:14
Speaker 1: see he was stunned. And that's when I could see
29:16
Speaker 1: the people in the line that was in the line
29:18
Speaker 1: of net peppers. You can see the bodies actually start
29:20
Speaker 1: to fall. So then we knew it was like bigger
29:22
Speaker 1: than just even a shootout. And we just continue to run,
29:25
Speaker 1: and we just yelling at people and just telling them, like, run,
29:27
Speaker 1: it's a mass shooter. Run, it's a mass shooter. You're
29:30
Speaker 1: hearing our friend Anthony Reynolds at NBC Today speaking to witnesses.
29:36
Speaker 1: They're survivors of the Dayton shooting before we could even
29:38
Speaker 1: absorb what had happened. And back to school cell at
29:41
Speaker 1: a Walmart eleven am, where you're of another mass shooting
29:46
Speaker 1: in Dayton. How can we not only absorb what happened,
29:51
Speaker 1: but makes sense of it so that we can learn
29:55
Speaker 1: something from it. And in our jurispruduce system, even if
29:59
Speaker 1: we learned from it, what under the law can we
30:03
Speaker 1: actually do about it? Joining me Dave matcrime online dot
30:08
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. You know, I'm understanding that the Dayton
30:13
Speaker 1: shooter had a plan, an earlier plan to shoot up
30:15
Speaker 1: a school. He had a hit list and a rape list.
30:19
Speaker 1: One girl, a former cheerleader, says in her freshman year,
30:22
Speaker 1: she got a phone call from cops who tell her
30:24
Speaker 1: her name was on his list of potential targets, and
30:29
Speaker 1: she says the officer said he the shooter wouldn't be
30:32
Speaker 1: back to school for a while. He had been suspended,
30:35
Speaker 1: some time passed, and then he was back walking down
30:37
Speaker 1: the halls. They didn't give any of the potential targets
30:40
Speaker 1: any warning he was coming back to school. The discovery
30:44
Speaker 1: of the hit list, that was all the way back
30:46
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. How long had that been going on
30:50
Speaker 1: prompt to police to investigate him, and it cost about
30:54
Speaker 1: one third of the students to skip school. Had a
30:57
Speaker 1: fear for their own safety. Now that's according to the AP.
31:00
Speaker 1: He Now, I was thinking about what David Kats, our
31:02
Speaker 1: active shot or response expert, was saying. He had no
31:06
Speaker 1: apparent criminal record as an adult. Now we also know
31:10
Speaker 1: if he had been charged as a juvenal, all those
31:12
Speaker 1: offenses would be sealing. We wouldn't know about them. But
31:15
Speaker 1: this goes way way back, Dave Mack. I mean, this
31:18
Speaker 1: guy's planning to kill and rape people all the way
31:20
Speaker 1: back seven years ago. Yeah, it's at the age of seventeen.
31:24
Speaker 1: He's writing on a bathroom wall his rape list. Okay,
31:28
Speaker 1: at seventeen, he could have been tried as an adult
31:31
Speaker 1: for that type of a crime. And this is something
31:32
Speaker 1: we actually were talking about before we started the show, Nancy,
31:35
Speaker 1: because what can be done about somebody who look a
31:39
Speaker 1: normal person, doesn't have a hit list. What's the same
31:43
Speaker 1: thing as in the Parkland shooting to doctor Bethany Marshall
31:47
Speaker 1: Psycholis joining me out of LA A former middle school
31:51
Speaker 1: classmate told the local paper that this guy Bets had
31:56
Speaker 1: an obsession with killing and death and once told her
31:59
Speaker 1: he fantasies about tying her up and slitting her throat.
32:02
Speaker 1: This is in meddual school. She said she knew that
32:07
Speaker 1: he knew he the shoot or knew it was not normal,
32:11
Speaker 1: and talked about him getting help. She and her parents
32:14
Speaker 1: told the Bellbrook police what was going on, and they
32:18
Speaker 1: all say they were not taken seriously. This guy would
32:22
Speaker 1: also do writings about all Shelby annihilated, absolute carnage, bloody massacre.
32:31
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's not a red flag to steal
32:34
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick's title of her book, I don't know it is. Well, Nancy,
32:37
Speaker 1: we have a term in the field. It's called catathymic homicide,
32:42
Speaker 1: and that's a fancy term to mean compulsion. That these
32:47
Speaker 1: men actually have a compulsion to kill, and it's a
32:50
Speaker 1: compulsion that waxes and wanes over the lifespan until they
32:55
Speaker 1: actually commit the act. So when you take a compulsion,
32:58
Speaker 1: a compulsion at its very core is a build up
33:03
Speaker 1: of feelings outside of awareness that can only be neutralized
33:08
Speaker 1: by an act. So some people, you know, compulsively want
33:12
Speaker 1: to have sex or binge and purge or shop. We
33:15
Speaker 1: were all familiar with the idea of what a compulsion
33:18
Speaker 1: is like. But in this case, the compulsion is to kill.
33:22
Speaker 1: And when somebody has a compulsion, there's a buildup of agitation, restlessness,
33:29
Speaker 1: there's an urgency to commit the act. And that's why
33:32
Speaker 1: is the panel's talking about. You know, how we how
33:35
Speaker 1: do we detect these people? How do we stop them?
33:37
Speaker 1: You know, what are the red flags? You have to
33:40
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of a compulsion that is
33:43
Speaker 1: leaking out all over the place, So you start with
33:46
Speaker 1: their writings, and you also start in their own homes.
33:50
Speaker 1: I do think that a diligent parent can know if
33:54
Speaker 1: their child has a compulsion to kill. You look at
33:57
Speaker 1: what they're writing, You look at what they're reading, You
34:00
Speaker 1: look at what they're talking about, You look at their
34:01
Speaker 1: Facebook accounts. It's going to be there, Nancy, people cannot
34:05
Speaker 1: hide compulsion. To Wendy Patrick, Californian prosecutor and author of
34:09
Speaker 1: the book on Amazon red Flags, Yeah, software here we
34:14
Speaker 1: didn't have a warning. There were no quote red flags here.
34:17
Speaker 1: In both of these cases, there are tons of red flags. Yeah.
34:20
Speaker 1: And you know you also, in addition to looking, you
34:23
Speaker 1: also listen to what they say. Part of the problem
34:27
Speaker 1: here is many of these people do talk about what
34:29
Speaker 1: they're feeling in terms of the compulsions. Sometimes we talk
34:31
Speaker 1: about it being a pathway to violence, so the releasing
34:34
Speaker 1: pressure at the very end. Sometimes it's totally logical to them.
34:38
Speaker 1: We say, senseless violence makes perfect sense to them, so
34:41
Speaker 1: in order to figure out where they are along this pathway,
34:44
Speaker 1: and if we want to call it a compulsion, I
34:46
Speaker 1: like that too because I think that really captures the
34:49
Speaker 1: build up and it's the listening to the kids and
34:51
Speaker 1: taking it seriously. But then again, the problem at the end, Nancy,
34:55
Speaker 1: as many of us have talked about, is how do
34:57
Speaker 1: you then separate those from actually our suffering, from this
35:01
Speaker 1: build up of tension, from this compulsion, from those that
35:03
Speaker 1: are just talking or maybe think this is somehow going
35:07
Speaker 1: to glamorize their existence in making themselves seem dangerous. It
35:11
Speaker 1: is that that we need to pay most attention to
35:12
Speaker 1: as a threat assessment community, separating those two. Sometimes we
35:16
Speaker 1: say hunters and howlers. Hunters are the ones that we
35:19
Speaker 1: don't see coming. Howlers are the ones that make a
35:21
Speaker 1: lot of noise but don't actually graduate. To Karen Smith,
35:24
Speaker 1: forensic expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting, what do you
35:29
Speaker 1: look for in the home, in their room, on their computers,
35:32
Speaker 1: their laptops, their things. We've heard this over and over again, Nancy.
35:37
Speaker 1: The manifestos, the drawings. Sometimes they'll make drawings, they'll have notes,
35:42
Speaker 1: They'll have hidden places in their desk and their closet
35:45
Speaker 1: and boxes. Anywhere inside their room is their hubble, their
35:50
Speaker 1: place where they plan, where they plot. So that and
35:53
Speaker 1: I don't want to say treasure trove because it's not
35:55
Speaker 1: the appropriate thing, but that's what it is. Really. Forensics
35:58
Speaker 1: are going to go in there. They're going to find possibly,
36:02
Speaker 1: you know, research on guns, research on how to carry
36:05
Speaker 1: this out, on the computers, research on past shooters, like
36:08
Speaker 1: we've heard from the experts on your show. All of
36:11
Speaker 1: these things come together and they're going to do a
36:13
Speaker 1: top to bottom search. They're going to collect pretty much,
36:16
Speaker 1: I would think boxes and bags of pretty much everything
36:19
Speaker 1: from the shooter's bed room, because I think every single
36:21
Speaker 1: thing in there is going to be a clue. Do
36:23
Speaker 1: David Katz, founder CEO of Global Security Group, Active Shooter
36:27
Speaker 1: Response Expert, former DA What if anything can we learn? David, Well,
36:33
Speaker 1: I mean, like I keep going back to the same thing,
36:35
Speaker 1: you know, you know all the guests have made, you know,
36:37
Speaker 1: the really important points that we know. These people, they
36:41
Speaker 1: tell us what they're going to do. The part we
36:44
Speaker 1: have to figure out that, you know, I don't know
36:46
Speaker 1: if we've not getting there yet, is okay, we have
36:49
Speaker 1: someone like this who at an early age in middle school,
36:52
Speaker 1: has these fantasies, has these desires. We know people have
36:55
Speaker 1: doctor you know, doctor Bethan, you mentioned pathological narcissism. These
36:58
Speaker 1: secret service goes into that detail, and there's some of
37:00
Speaker 1: their studies aggressive narcissism, they call it. We know these
37:03
Speaker 1: people exist, they are around other people who are terrified
37:06
Speaker 1: by them, but that doesn't lead us to Okay, now
37:09
Speaker 1: we know who they are. They've made people uncomfortable, even frightened.
37:14
Speaker 1: How do we stop them? And that's the point where
37:17
Speaker 1: that I think we need to grapple with because until
37:20
Speaker 1: until we can stop these kicking combottoms, they're going to
37:24
Speaker 1: these incidents are going to replay, replay, replay, and we're
37:26
Speaker 1: going to be having this conversation ad infinitum. That's what
37:29
Speaker 1: we have to do. We have to figure out as
37:30
Speaker 1: a society how to interdict and not just respond. At
37:33
Speaker 1: this hour's prayers go on for the victims and their families.
37:38
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,