Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Our Moms | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 7

Transcript

Our Moms | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 7 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, started this podcast so that we could bring to the table all of the things that no one wants to talk about in Motherhood.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Together, both psychotherapists and mothers of teenage daughters, we spent a lot of time, just the two of us, talking about all the stuff that actually shows up behind the scenes in motherhood.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: And we decided it was time that we all joined this conversation together.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: So if you are a mom feeling alone, if you're a mom feeling like you could use more information, if you're a mom looking to laugh about the things that are so ridiculous about this job, and quite frankly, if you're a mom needing to cry about the things that are more vulnerable and tenuous and heartbreaking, we've got you.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Pull up a chair, put in your earbuds, grab a cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, whatever you need, sit down and mother with us.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Our conversations are gonna be filled with laughter, probably some tears, hopefully some eye-opening insights.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: And between our conversations and the folks that we interview to help us learn a little bit more and grow a little bit more together, we're gonna create a system of mothering that helps us all feel a little bit less alone.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: Let us know what you think.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: We've got you.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Come mother with us.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, it was a really beautiful conversation.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: We talked about the lessons that we want to take into our own motherhood, maybe some of the things we want to leave behind, and just the journey of being daughters.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, so anyway, I hope you enjoy the show.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you as always for listening.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: And please remember to subscribe and add your two cents.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: We love learning about your stories.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: And so have a good day.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, as we all know, the mother-daughter connection is like no other.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: It is intense and special and instrumental in both the lives of the mothers and the daughters.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: However, we know it can also be complex and challenging and even toxic at times.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: And when suddenly understanding your daughter can feel like the biggest challenge ever, we can feel scared and alone and disoriented.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: But I'm here to help.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: I have just launched my fall workshops and I have a few different options which I'm really excited about.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: You can check them out on my website at motherdaughterjourney.co.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: What I want to tell you is that I'm offering a few day-long immersive retreats, and I'm also offering a virtual deep dive on specific topics.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: The day-long options are hosted on Fridays, and if you're from out of town, you can make it a weekend in beautiful boulder, where you can explore our majestic mountains and trails, eat amazing food, and just enjoy the boulder lifestyle.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: Please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: If you go to my website, again, motherdaughterjourney.co, you can schedule a free information session.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And I really look forward to hearing from you.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: Have a beautiful day.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So for our listeners, I am offering up a 30-minute free call.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: Zoom is ideal, so I can see your beautiful faces, so that I can chat with you about what you might need to access the kind of emotional and mental well-being that you are wanting in motherhood, both for yourself, right?
3:38
SPEAKER_00: So you can feel better.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: And also for your kiddos, of course, because what we know is that when we are healthy, we mother better.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: So find a link in the show notes.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: Come hang with me for a little bit, and let's figure out what you might need to access that kind of life that you are really wanting.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I really hope to see you, and there's nothing to lose.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Pop on a call with me.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you there.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Kate.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: For anyone who's watching, we have we look really cool today.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: Headphones and curly hair do not work well together.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Headphones, we've got all kinds of chords in front of us.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: We just had Jamie lead us through a tutorial of technology.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Which I think we absorbed.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: We took notes.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: We sort of absorbed.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm it's always in one ear and out the other.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: But here we are.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: It sounds good in my ears right now.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: All right.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: For our listeners, we really want you to hear us.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: That's the goal of the podcast.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And we've had some technical difficulties, let's be honest.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: You know what my mom used to say to me, which is interesting that I'm pulling this up now given our topic.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: She used to be like, she I used to be like, I'm good at a lot of things.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: This is not one of them.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: I think my mom said something like that.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: They would be they would be friends.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: They would definitely totally have been friends.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: So, Kate, we're gonna talk about our moms today.
5:09
SPEAKER_02: We are.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: Hi, mom, if you're listening.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: My my mom is listening from I don't know, the breeze around us and the air and the trees and the leaves.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: And for those listeners who don't know, although I think we've talked about it before, my mom died seven years ago.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Which is really interesting, I'll say it's a very disorienting feeling when your mom dies.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Regardless of the kind of relationship you had, it's so disorienting.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: I can only imagine because those mother ties, that like cord from your heart to her heart is so tethering.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: And then when she goes to another place, we don't know where, but at the next place, that cord gets really stretched, I would imagine.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: That's such an interesting metaphor.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, I have so much to say about that, but you know, I think for me the disorienting piece which is true of a father too, although, you know, having been created inside of my mom's belly, I guess it feels a little different.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: But like when she died, I had this feeling of like I've never been on this planet without her here with me.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Right?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: I just felt that in my heart.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: And it's a really interesting feeling to be like right, I don't know what it's like to be here without her.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And as some of our listeners may know, my mom had early Alzheimer's, and so her her like capacity to be present, to actually be here in the way we all knew her to be had changed so much.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: So her dying wasn't the tragedy, but the Alzheimer's was tragedy by the time she died.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Actually, it was you know this, but I had that initial shock of her dying, she died suddenly, and then I felt total bliss.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: You did.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: You actually, I mean, I watched you grieve about that relationship when we became friends because I actually never met her with her brain in full capacity.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: That's right, which is so weird to me.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: I know that's sad for me too.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting because she feels like such a part of me and me of her, and so the fact that you never knew her before she got sick is so interesting.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: But I did, I grieved for a while before she died.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: You did, and you actually went through really important self-care and self-inquiry before she passed as well, like around that relationship, which I think and I hope I'm not overstepping here, but I think it actually made your relationship to the grief process really different, like really awake and and you're an external processor, so you were able to write about it, talk about it, cry about it, laugh about it.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'll never forget being in that yoga class holding you that morning after we found out, and it was I felt so connected to you during that process, and also like I there's no way I could ever p possibly understand what you were going through.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: And you were just this really bright light through the whole process.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: It was really you know, Wendy Blackstern in her grief work talks about really chain turning grief into gratitude, and that is what I watched you do.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: I haven't heard Wendy use those words, but it makes so much sense, and that's what I felt, right?
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Because I had so much baggage in my brain about my mom and my relationship to my mom and who hate she had become over the five, six, seven years at the end of her life with her declining cognition, right?
9:14
SPEAKER_00: That the moment she died, that baggage and all those stories went away with her.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And then all I had left was my mom.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is so beautiful.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: It felt really freeing.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Her dying felt really freeing, and not in the way of being free of her.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I like miss her, but free of the burden of the illness and the despair and the confusion.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: And anyway, it's really interesting, isn't it, to think about how profoundly impactful our mothers are in our lives and how we feel about ourselves walking this ourselves as ourselves and ourselves on this planet, and how we relate to other people.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: It's a topic that's so fascinating.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's everything.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: And it's I mean, I my whole work is the mother-daughter journey, and I am a daughter, and I have daughters, and I am constantly evaluating and trying to understand the mother-daughter puzzle, which is actually the name of a book that I love.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: And um, and to really understand what gets passed on generationally, like between be around trauma, around story, around messaging, around deep sexism, around being silenced, and just how it gets passed through this mother line that is so profound, and how as we show up as moms today, can take what we want and and be and discern, have discernment around the things that don't work for us.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and to your point, that mother line, right?
10:47
SPEAKER_00: It goes so beyond our mothers.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
10:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like your mom and my mom and their mothers and their mothers and their mothers, and it and it is really what you and I have, I've heard you say it, I've said it is those of us in our generation raising our kids right now, we have this opportunity to change patterns where they need to be changed.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Yep, right, and to really gratitude, celebrate and be grateful for and embody the things that we uh got from our mothers that are worth continuing to pass down.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: But I think when we can be reflective of those two things, we have more choice than just doing it the same way.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: And when we get scared or activated in any way, we rely on what we know, what's in our bodies, which actually isn't that deep agency.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: It's not about totally be having choice.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: It's it's about living the way we were treated.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: And so then we get to explore this by self-reflecting, by paying attention, by understanding the stories and the triggers.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: So I want to say something about my mom.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, please.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, but I want to hear, but I I was gonna say, and maybe this is what you're gonna do.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: I would love to put us both on the spot and to be like, what are we grateful for?
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And what are we gonna, what did we, what was an important learning that we might take with us and do differently?
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, you know, just as a whole umbrella.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: But tell us about Lois.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Because hi Lois.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: I have to say, you're Lois, you're mama, mama Lois.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: I really I know that our moms would have been friends, and I know that because when I sit with your mom, there's a familiar feeling to me.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think they both were New Yorkers, they're both love fashion, they love the arts, they're both well read, they're great conversational.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, I feel like I won the jackpot with my mom, and that does not mean that it's all easy, of course.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: And there were many years that it was hard, and one thing I've actually shared on this podcast is the hardest years um for us was when I was really differentiating because I really was trying to be so different than her unconsciously, and I know that I always I often mom, not always, I often felt judged by her, even though she also really let me be me.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: And so I would I'm gonna start with one of the things I'm most grateful for is that she um it's like she knew that I just didn't quite fit into the typical Connecticut Jewish um storyline that was happening in my world.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: And and and she like really let me spread my wings.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, she had judgments along the way, but I don't think she ever thought she was judging.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: I think I was just a teenager and felt like everyone was judging me because that's what teenagers feel like.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: And and I could not be more grateful that she let me do it my way.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Can I?
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, you you answer this question, we'll both answer this question with um respect for privacy and tact, but can you tell us a little bit about your mom's upbringing?
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Like what was her lineage?
14:13
SPEAKER_00: What did she bring to the table when she was raising you?
14:15
SPEAKER_00: I guess that's the question I want to ask.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great question.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: One I have not prepared for.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: Um I know, sorry.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: So she was she had kind of um simp a simple family.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Um her dad, Max, was in the war and came back, and you know, they just lived the simple life in Long Island, and he was a construction worker, and she was um my grandma did books for someone like books like accounting.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think I should know this.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, well, first of all, the fact that your grandmother worked is a big deal.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she is that's a that's pioneering in that generation.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: It really was, and she was a pioneer.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they it's like neither of her parents were out like literally like changing the world, but they were good people, and they were there was a family full of love.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: And my aunt Sandy, who has passed on, your mom's sister, yeah.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: She might have had a different story around feeling accepted in the family because she was sort of the black sheep like me and often felt judged by her mom, and she and I used to really commiserate on that together.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: She was a deadhead, and you know, all the things.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: If only, if only we had been able to hang with her and her day.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh I mean, you did.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: I did.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: She she was just my hero.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: And um, but my mom and my mom and her sister were really close, really, really close.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, two only two siblings?
15:43
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Just the two of them.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Two girls.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: Two girls, I know.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: So that's what my my Well same with mine, actually.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh no, group two.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay, sorry.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Go on.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: You have a brother.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: My I've go on just in case.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Sam.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Um so so yeah, I mean, I think that my grandma daddy was very much like stuck in her ways, like in in the sense of sh her favorite line was like, Oh, I don't want to burden you, you know, or like, have you seen any pictures lately?
16:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was kind of like that.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: And and when I think back, I mean, she had a really loving husband, she was in a safe, secure marriage, and she was very much about making yourself small to be the caregiver and go with the flow and you know, not take up too much space, and those were the messages.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, she's always commented on my body, my sister's body, and my mom's body, and my aunt's body.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was just so deeply ingrained.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: What was this is sort of a but what was her body like?
16:47
SPEAKER_02: Was she self-conscious of her own body?
16:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, she just was kind of always like, you know, you don't want to eat too much.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean, her body, my whole family's relatively small.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: And so it was it was just funny.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: Like there was just a lot of it was like she was kind of a cliche in many ways.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, but my mom was kind of her golden child in many ways, and they had complexities, but I think when my grandma daddy died, my mom would say that it felt complete.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: She she showed up, she mothered her on her ending days, she felt very mothered by her, and it was relatively trauma-free.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: So I carry that with me with so much gratitude and awareness and recognition that it's a true privilege.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: What about you?
17:39
SPEAKER_02: What would be something that you're grateful for?
17:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: I I I mean, I'm hearing you talk about your family and I'm laughing, you know.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: I I I think we've said this to our friends, and our listeners are probably sick of hearing us say this, but like the fact that we're so close is hilarious.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: I actually think you and I share at our core so much in common, but on the outside, there's so much different because I grew up in this sort of quintessential New England white Anglo-Saxon Protestant family, right?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Very proper, very um English, very, very um stoic, um traditional.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, my grandmother, actually, well, what what you know, which I'll say to our listeners, is I come from a long line of women who have been working hard to break glass ceilings.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: So Margaret Fuller was my great-great aunt, and she was one of the leaders in the suffrage movement, really working hard to um advocate for the rights of women to vote.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, she died early, and I I wrote my eighth-grade term paper on her.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: She died early when she was in her early 30s on a boat, boat crash.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, is that the right word?
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Boat, the boat sunk off the coast of Fire Island.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: She was coming over from coming back from Italy to the United States, and her boat sank, and she and her husband and their baby died.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure through my research that Margaret Fuller was a lesbian.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Wreck.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Wreck.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: That's the word we're thinking about.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking about that.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: But wreck.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure that Margaret Fuller was a lesbian, but I think she did not, she wanted to make big change in the world.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: And she ended up marrying a man and having a baby, I think, because that's what was expected of her.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Why do you think she was a lesbian?
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Because she wrote about it.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have some of her old journals, which is really incredible.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: She had lovers for sure.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, she was like a lover of women.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh just she was rate, her, she had a couple of brothers, and her um dad raised her to be educated the way her brothers were.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And that was very different for that generation.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: So she was actually, you know, what's really interesting and painful.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And I actually think if we track down what I learned from my mom, who learned from her ancestors, this is a burden I bear too.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: But in her um, one of her journals, she was like 11.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: And she wrote in the journal, it kind of chokes me up a little bit.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: She wrote, I will change the world and I will suffer doing it.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And so she really like worked herself to the bone on behalf of women.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, skip a little bit down to my mother, my my mom's mom, Giggy on my mom's side, raised two daughters and a son.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So my mom, my mom's sister, and my mom's brother.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: My mom's sister um was the first um female secretary of state in Rhode Island.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: She was a politician and broke so many ceilings.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: She did so much badass shit.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: And my mom did all kinds of things to be like a pioneer in the mediation and arbitration movement.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: So I come from this line of women who have done really exceptional things, but who have suffered in the process.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: My grandmother like dressed for dinner every night for my grandfather, right?
21:42
SPEAKER_00: She liked the table was always set.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: We had these seats in my house when I was growing up for Thanksgiving, and the back had this pointy thing on the back of the seat so that you wouldn't lean against the chair.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh my.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: So that you would sit up in your seat.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, very like proper.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Wow, we were raised really different.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then my grandmother's job and I actually think my grandmother was very, very strong.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: She did a lot of volunteering for political parties and um you know, I think um I think really put herself out there in many ways that were new for her generation, but she didn't work, she didn't have a job, but she raised these two daughters who were like right out of Margaret Fuller's book, you know.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna frickin change the world for women and suffer in the process.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think one of the reasons my mom died young is because she ran herself into the ground.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my mom died at 71, so young comparison to how old she could have been.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so it's interesting because what am I grateful for?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful for coming from a lineage of women who have big ideas, who are willing to and wanting to really push the limits of things.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't love the generational concept of self-sacrifice and suffering in that process.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: And as you know, that's something that I've worked really hard in my life, and I've seen both sides.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I run myself into the ground, I've uh sort of have this.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: My mom, you know, my mom is like the energizer bunny that's inside of my heart, yeah, that runs me.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I want to be like, I'm often like stopping like mom, stopping like mom because there's a part of that that fuels everything, but it's freaking exhausting.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: And really inspiring.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And really inspiring and so interesting.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: As I listen to you, I'm I'm thinking about my mom and and her whole I think she was put on this earth to be relational.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, she was a teacher, she went to FIT, and then she became a teacher at a like alternative school for preschool.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: And she was an she wrote children's books, but never actually got them published, but she could have.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: And she has an incredible eye for design.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: She, I mean, she could have been many things, and I think sometimes I can get caught up in I want you to do all the things you could have done, but when I actually really open my eyes, she is content.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: And she like will love to sit in her journal and sip her coffee and watch the sunset, and she's just like this incredibly content human that I admire because I long for that, and I have some of that in me, but it's like if I don't break a sweat every day, it's hard for me to be totally relaxed, and she can wake up pretty happy with not doing anything extravagant.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's so interesting.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's her definition of extravagance and what's your definition of extravagance?
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Or what's her definition of living a life worth living, and what's your definition?
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And not that they're that different, I don't think they are, but it's like we we inherit some of that from our parents, our mothers, and I think we probably push against it at the same time.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I was driving my mom to the airport the last time I saw her, you know this story, but she was in tears.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: We she would have these moments of lucidity, right?
25:33
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Kate, I have been running for class president every day of my entire life.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: That's how she felt at 71.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, does that not exhaust you?
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And yet, everyone fucking loved her.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: She won every year.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's like that was her definition of a life worth living, I guess.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, what if like then there's the other side that Lois is showing us, right?
26:03
SPEAKER_00: There's this other side of your word is content.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it like?
26:09
SPEAKER_00: What if we could all just let ourselves slow the fuck down?
26:14
SPEAKER_02: It's so interesting.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: It's it it almost doesn't matter because it's like what projection we're putting on anyone else.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: You know, yes, I hear what you're saying, and I'm also like you know, if I'm so curious how my mom hears all this, you know, I think there's probably been moments in her life where she's like, Yeah, I could have done that.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: And then, but then at the end of the day, people will say, I just had the best conversation with your mom.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: And like, so again, it doesn't really matter.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like everyone's just kind of living their lives.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think what does matter is how we're starting this podcast is what we're choosing in our life to take with us as little gems, and what we're recognizing is maybe not gonna serve our personality.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: So, one thing you said so beautifully is, and you are like a fighter for women and creating so much change and doing major things in the world.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: And you're what I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you're also doing it in a balanced way, and that's your whole mission is to take that inspiration, take that powerhouse mentality, and learn how to do it in a way that doesn't create internal suffering.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: That is my goal.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: I will say I'm better at it sometimes than others, right?
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Which thank God for you and you know, people who I trust who I think can call me on my shit, when I when I get to, but that's that's sort of like that's my burden to bear.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, is that not only do I enter my own life with this inherited drive to do more.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: And we were just talking about this before we hit record.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not only did I enter this life with that this drive to do more, which honestly I couldn't change if I tried.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: And I've tried, but then it's right back there, it's just in me, right?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also bringing with me into this life this drive to do more to the point of suffering.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, funny story, when my mom was 70, she had to have her toe cut off because she had broken it decades before and never got it fixed.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: She was moving and running and wearing freaking stilettos and running miles after miles and never stopped to fix her frickin' toe.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: I wonder what it would be like if, as your friend, every now and then I might be like, how's your toe?
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Like that's like your that's like your code word.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: But you know what I mean?
29:00
SPEAKER_00: It's like, isn't that interesting that she didn't pause to frick her fix her frickin' broken toe?
29:07
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm thinking about something that my mom and I relate on that I think is part of my burden to bear.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Is we both have big ideas and sometimes it's hard to bring them to fruition.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: Ah.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: Mom, I hope you're giggling right now.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think one thing I'm trying to do differently in this lifetime is to pick the things I really want to do and do them really well and finish through.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: And so that's where I try.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: I have to actually work every day to not spread myself too thin.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: So sometimes I think even in our relationship, it can look like I'm simplifying, I'm like skimming off the fat, I'm skimming off the fat because the the places that I want to put my energy into, I want to just do it full on.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: And I can get so easily distracted with kind of my whimsical mindset that that's where I have to work really hard to change that pattern and really make a project succeed and come to an end, you know, or like come, like just finish.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally get that.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Although just the other side of that same coin, and again, Lois, or you can correct me if I'm not interpreting this the right way.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: But when I think of your mom, from what I know of her, and I think of how you're describing her right now, I don't think of your mom as a performer.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: She, there's no performance, right?
30:37
SPEAKER_00: She is authentic to the bone.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: She moves at her own pace.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Does this feel true?
30:43
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: So, and then again, and I'm I'm comparing, but not because one's better than the other, just as a contrast.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: I think my mom was constantly performing, right?
30:54
SPEAKER_00: She was working really hard to get recognition, right?
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And so when I hear you talking about something you share with your mom where you can have these big ideas and never see them to fruition, is part of that because you're doing them for you and then you lose interest.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: So why the heck see it to per to fruition if you're not trying to perform for someone else?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
31:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really amazing reframe.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not, if you're only doing it for you and not to get the outside applause, which I think actually is what motivated my mom, and there's all kinds of reasons I could analyze, which I'm not going to get into here, but I actually do think she needed recognition so deeply.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't, in the same way I'm saying my or Lois didn't, then you start something, you're like, nah, not so interested anymore.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: So why the heck see it to fruition?
31:45
SPEAKER_00: I yes, thank you.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: That feels more fitting to me.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: It actually really does fit.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: So I want to say something else about my mom.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, please.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, I cannot believe I'm saying this on a podcast where possibly a lot of people might hear it.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: But I actually want to thank my mom for something she said to me a long, long time ago.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: And she said, Deb, or Deborah, she always called me Deborah.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: She still does.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh boy.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: Deborah, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so hilarious.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: Say more.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: What do you mean by that?
32:20
SPEAKER_02: She was like, go explore people, you know.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: As I said before, oops.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, spilled my drink.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: No, this is uncut.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay, go on.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: And now we're realizing how loud everything is.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Um it's so she's relational, I'm relational.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: There's no doubt that I'm put on this earth in this lifetime to be a connector.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: That's like everything that lights me up.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: And so she married my dad.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: It was really the first true love of her life, and I and they have a really beautiful relationship, and still, and um, but I think there's a part of her that's like, maybe I should have explored a little more.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, mom, if I'm putting words in your mouth.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: But like, you know, they met when she was 20, and that's a long time to be with the same person.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: So I just remember whether I internalized this wrong or not, and the people that know me well are gonna laugh.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: Is like, I took this as an opportunity to, you know, really explore people.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: Good girl.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And I think it actually really has helped me in my journey of, you know, being a sexually liberated woman.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: And there was definitely years of overcompensating and having shame around it and not always knowing when to say no and not wanting to hurt someone's feelings and putting myself in positions that were not always self-serving.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: But I do think that I took her advice in like it's okay to kiss people, to date, to explore, to have fun.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just really grateful for that because I had a fun long road before I settled down.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's funny because I also want to say, and again, just like you said when you said talked about your relationship with your mom.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do think that's something both you and I shared, is that we had very both had very close relationships with our moms.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: But you said in the beginning, no relationship's perfect.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: So I I preface what I'm about to say with that knowledge.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: But you and your husband Howie have a very healthy relationship, right?
34:24
SPEAKER_00: It's very intact and functional.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And of course, you've got your shit like every other relationship does.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: But you're really, I imagine that that amazing advice that Lois gave you is what enabled you to land with someone when it was time to land with someone who was the right person because you kissed so many frogs, so to speak, that by the time your prince came along, no, right?
34:51
SPEAKER_00: But do you know what I mean?
34:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like by the time it was but time by the time it was your time to get married to the person you were gonna spend your life with, you knew what you wanted.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Does that feel true?
35:05
SPEAKER_02: That feels so that was good advice, Lois.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Lois.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Kate, for that beautiful reflection.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I actually, what I'm as you're speaking, I think what the underlying message is don't settle.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: Like explore a lot of things so you figure out what you like and then don't settle.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: So that's something I'm gonna pass on to my girls.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: That was a good piece of advice.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Kiss a lot of frogs and don't settle.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: The advice I got from my mom a lot, which I think is sort of cliche.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of parents say this, but it really was meaningful for me, and it goes back to everything I've already talked about is you can do whatever you want.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think that she was she trusted me and my intuition to the nth degree, right?
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Like that was there was a lot, again, we won't get into details here, but there were a lot of dynamics in our relationship and our attachment that now that she's no longer on this planet, I've done a lot of reflecting on, and I'm like, whoa, that thing I always said was perfect, not so perfect, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of clunkiness in there.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And man, did she trust me and my intuition and my ability to know what was right for me.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: It goes back into a lot of our topics we've talked about with raising kids, right?
36:25
SPEAKER_00: She did that so well.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that sort of that advice of you can do whatever you want was flavored with the you can do whatever you want, and what you want to do will be the right thing for you.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
36:42
SPEAKER_00: That that is a really powerful thing to hear from your mom.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: And you took it, you internalized it.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: I did, and you have moved mountains and you do do what you want, and you don't apologize for it.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think it goes back to this thing we're saying about parenting is what we project onto our kids, right?
37:04
SPEAKER_02: They will absorb.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: So let's project wisely.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: That is right.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: Right?
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And they and that we absorb the good and the bad, right?
37:12
SPEAKER_00: So here you and I are, it's 2023, we're doing just fine, right?
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Like we've survived all the shit in our lives.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: And we both absorbed the quote unquote good and bad from our mothers.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Like I can, I can sit here and close my eyes and embody, I just felt a prickle behind my eyes.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can embody the parts of my mom that I most admire.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: I know what that feels like.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: I also know what it feels like to embody the parts of her that were really, I really don't want.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: I I can feel that in my body too.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: Even if she was saying something different, she moved through the world in a way that has caused challenges for me because I moved through the world in many of the same ways.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Because it was in the air I breathed, right?
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: And we're doing the same thing to ourselves.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just aware, I just want to be really transparent to our listeners that I'm also on this podcast right now, knowing that my mom is going to listen to this.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Of course you are.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: So I'm just being mindful of that.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to paint a lopsided, you know, story here, but I also am, you know, not being as um transparent as I could be about some of the struggles because that still feels very in between my mom and I.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, you don't, and we don't even need to be.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: We can be, I'm not either.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: We can be authentic without being transparent.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: There's no need for the details.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Because it's the ideas that I think we're bringing to the table here today for our listeners to think about is like, and I mean maybe that's just how we wrap up today is inviting that reflection, inviting those questions, right?
38:49
SPEAKER_00: What are the parts, where is your gratitude, right?
38:52
SPEAKER_00: What are the parts that you learn from your own mother?
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you weren't raised by a mother.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: It could be your grandmother, it could be your stepmother, it could be an adoptive mother, right?
39:02
SPEAKER_00: So your mother figure, yes, right?
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: What are the things that you inherited or learned from from your mother figure that you embody that you feel really proud of?
39:12
SPEAKER_00: And to celebrate those things.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: And what are the things that you embody that are a little more shadowy for you?
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And how do you make room for that without being critical of that mother figure or yourself?
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the hard part.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna add to that because I do want our listeners to sit down after they listen to this podcast and write it out or talk it out or unpack it with a friend.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: Because the shadowy things that you're speaking to are often like these prerequisites of worthiness that are really actually quite subtle.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes there's these messages that I will be more loved and accepted if I am this.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think all of us humans have that.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: We we put it on our own kids subtly, we have definitely received it.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a really important thing to acknowledge because you know, your worthiness is your birthright.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: It's regardless of who you are, of what how you are in the world.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: And yet, because the role of parenting is so complex and we're trying so hard to make successful adults into the world, that we will have these very strong ideals of what that looks like, and that can get projected as prerequisites of worthiness.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: So I invite us all to sit with that and see what comes up.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: And to remember that no one is all good or all bad.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm imagining because we know this is true for so many people, that those relationships with some of our listeners' mothers were really complicated.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's easy for some of us when we have when our memories are filled with pain and maybe even trauma, right?
41:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: To to fall into the all bad.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Or this happens a lot in new motherhood, right?
41:08
SPEAKER_00: To have these relationships with our mothers where we see them as all good, all perfect.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: And no one is all good or all bad.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think this exercise that we're inviting our listeners to do allows there to be space for all of it.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that the quote unquote harm that was done wasn't really harmful.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: And I do think there's something, especially in that mother line, mothers and daughters is what we're talking about today, because most of our listeners are women, right?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, our mothers and their own mothers is just to really recognize that we are a product of our experiences.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: And we're not all bad or all good.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: So, what's it like to tie into some of the some of the gratitude?
41:57
SPEAKER_02: And I think gratitude then becomes the antidote for blame.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, this is not a blame game, but this is the journey of recognition that there's this strong cord through the mother line, and then there's this incredible process of seeing our mothers as human beings with limitations, taking them off a pedestal or maybe lifting them up with a little more compassion and seeing them as women.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Because when we actually all start to see each other as complex, beautiful, limited women, then we can take away any of our judgment.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: And it really opens up this beautiful kind of way to look at the world.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: God, it feels so good.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Even when I'm hearing you say that, it's like every cell in my body breathes.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like right, right.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: Like me, my own daughters, uh, my mom, my grandmothers.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Every single one of us is just walking through the world trying to make it work.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes our good enough isn't good enough, so we need to acknowledge that.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: But like we're all just trying to make our way.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: So let's complete with just a real deep bow to the human experience and keeping our eyes open and seeing it for what it is, and taking the things that we really appreciate and honoring and bowing to the things that are hard.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: And if any of you listeners feel able to do this within the context of your relationship, you might want to share something with your own mom that you are taking with you into your life that you want to that has been helpful for you.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: And for some people that might be easier than others, but there's something in that reflection and that recognition that it's really useful to do that.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: I love you, Kate.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I love you, Deb.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: I love you, Lois.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: I love you, mom.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: Have a good day.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: So take a minute.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: We'd be so grateful.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.