Latest / Dark Psychology: The Control Game / He Replaced Her Life: The Man Who Edited a Woman's Past
Transcript
- 0:03Speaker 1: At nine forty seven in the morning on December tenth,
- 0:06Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, a volunteer named Carl Cooper pushed open
- 0:11Speaker 1: a door that should have been locked inside apartment to
- 0:14Speaker 1: sea on Sadler Street. A twenty eight year old man
- 0:17Speaker 1: sat on the kitchen floor, unresponsive, surrounded by objects that
- 0:22Speaker 1: did not belong to the moment. Four prescription bottles arranged
- 0:26Speaker 1: in a neat row, and a laminated card placed at
- 0:29Speaker 1: the center of the table with the precision of something rehearsed.
- 0:32Speaker 1: The card listed a full name, a date of birth,
- 0:35Speaker 1: a set of allergies, and a psychiatric diagnosis. It had
- 0:39Speaker 1: been laminated recently. The crinkle of the plastic was still crisp.
- 0:44Speaker 1: When paramedics arrived and asked the man about his medications,
- 0:48Speaker 1: he said he did not know what they were called.
- 0:50Speaker 1: When they asked who managed his prescriptions, he said the
- 0:53Speaker 1: same three words that would later appear verbatim in a
- 0:56Speaker 1: police report. My wife's been handling that that sentence would
- 1:01Speaker 1: eventually become the hinge of a criminal case. But to
- 1:04Speaker 1: understand what had cost Gregory Sheridan to say it, you
- 1:08Speaker 1: have to understand who he was before someone decided his
- 1:11Speaker 1: reality needed to be replaced. Gregory Sheridan grew up in
- 1:15Speaker 1: a mid sized house forty minutes outside Milford County, the
- 1:19Speaker 1: older of two children. His sister, Mara, lived ninety minutes
- 1:23Speaker 1: north of that house. She was two years younger and
- 1:27Speaker 1: training to become a nurse. By his mid twenties, he
- 1:30Speaker 1: had built the kind of quiet life that looks unremarkable
- 1:33Speaker 1: from the outside and is actually very hard to build.
- 1:38Speaker 1: He worked as a junior estimator at Pratt and Holloway,
- 1:41Speaker 1: a construction management firm, where colleagues described him as thorough
- 1:45Speaker 1: and easy to be around. He showed up on time,
- 1:49Speaker 1: He followed through. He was the person in the room
- 1:51Speaker 1: who remembered what some one had said three weeks earlier
- 1:55Speaker 1: and acted on it. They spoke on the phone several
- 1:58Speaker 1: times a week. He lived ninety minutes north, far enough
- 2:02Speaker 1: to visit only occasionally, close enough to matter Constantly. On
- 2:06Speaker 1: Thursday evenings, Gregory played board games with a group of
- 2:09Speaker 1: friends he had known for years. Marcus Webb, who hosted
- 2:13Speaker 1: the games at his apartment for four years running, would
- 2:17Speaker 1: later describe Gregory as someone who anchored the room without
- 2:20Speaker 1: trying to. He was competitive, but never unkind. He made
- 2:24Speaker 1: people feel like the evening was going well. There was
- 2:27Speaker 1: no history of psychiatric treatment in Gregory's life before the
- 2:32Speaker 1: autumn of twenty eighteen. No voluntary evaluation, no therapy, no medication,
- 2:38Speaker 1: not because he was incapable of seeking help, but because,
- 2:41Speaker 1: according to everyone who knew him, there was no crisis
- 2:45Speaker 1: that required it. He met Paula Williams in March of
- 2:48Speaker 1: twenty eighteen at a professional mixer in Milford County. She
- 2:52Speaker 1: was thirty six, eight years older than Gregory, and worked
- 2:55Speaker 1: in medical billing. She knew the language of diagnostic codes,
- 2:59Speaker 1: insurance reimbursements, and clinical documentation. That knowledge, which seemed incidental
- 3:05Speaker 1: at the time, would become the architecture of what followed.
- 3:08Speaker 1: The relationship moved fast. By October of twenty eighteen, seven
- 3:13Speaker 1: months after they met, Gregory and Paula were married. The
- 3:17Speaker 1: ceremony was small and quick, described by those present as
- 3:21Speaker 1: warm but slightly surprising in its speed. Mara attended she
- 3:26Speaker 1: wanted to feel settled about it. She was not entirely
- 3:29Speaker 1: settled about it. What happened inside the marriage during the
- 3:32Speaker 1: months that followed was not visible from the outside in
- 3:36Speaker 1: any one dramatic moment. It moved the way erosion moves
- 3:42Speaker 1: steadily incrementally along the path of least resistance. Gregory stopped
- 3:48Speaker 1: attending Thursday board games in January of two thousand nineteen.
- 3:54Speaker 1: He did not say he had been told to stop.
- 3:57Speaker 1: There was no prohibition anyone could point to. The invitations
- 4:01Speaker 1: kept coming the attendants stopped. Paula began calling Gregory's mother,
- 4:08Speaker 1: Sandra and his sister Mara sometime in the late summer
- 4:12Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen. The exact timing of when those
- 4:16Speaker 1: calls started was never established in court. What was established
- 4:20Speaker 1: is what Paula said during them. She used clinical language.
- 4:24Speaker 1: She described Gregory's behavior in diagnostic terms, expressing concern, framing
- 4:30Speaker 1: herself as the one managing a situation that was becoming difficult.
- 4:35Speaker 1: She did this before any professional had evaluated Gregory. She
- 4:38Speaker 1: did it before Gregory had been given any diagnosis at all.
- 4:42Speaker 1: By the time a real clinician entered the picture, the
- 4:45Speaker 1: people closest to Gregory already believed something was wrong with him.
- 4:49Speaker 1: Paula had not lied to them about a fact they
- 4:51Speaker 1: could check. She had shaped the frame through which they
- 4:54Speaker 1: would interpret everything they saw next. That is the part
- 4:57Speaker 1: of this case that takes a moment to absorb. The
- 5:00Speaker 1: harm did not begin with the laminated card, or the
- 5:03Speaker 1: prescription bottles or the financial transfers. It began with phone
- 5:08Speaker 1: calls to the people who loved Gregory, most, turning them
- 5:11Speaker 1: into unwitting witnesses for a story they had been handed
- 5:15Speaker 1: but never questioned, and the story was about to get
- 5:18Speaker 1: a clinical signature. In September of two thousand nineteen, Gregory
- 5:23Speaker 1: Sheridan sat in a forty minute intake appointment at lake
- 5:27Speaker 1: View Behavioral on the west side of the city. He
- 5:30Speaker 1: had never sought psychiatric care before in his life. He
- 5:34Speaker 1: sat in that room with his wife beside him. Paula Williams,
- 5:38Speaker 1: spoke for most of the appointment. The clinician, a mid
- 5:41Speaker 1: level psychiatric nurse practitioner named doctor m fenn ran, a
- 5:46Speaker 1: high volume practice. Forty minutes was the standard window. Gregory
- 5:51Speaker 1: answered questions when they were directed at him. He confirmed
- 5:55Speaker 1: what Paula described. He had been living inside her version
- 5:59Speaker 1: of reality for long enough that her version felt like
- 6:02Speaker 1: his own. The diagnosis issued that day was border line
- 6:07Speaker 1: personality disorder with dissociative features. It was not a fraudulent document.
- 6:14Speaker 1: It was a real diagnosis. From a real clinician, based
- 6:17Speaker 1: entirely on information Paula had provided. That distinction matters. The
- 6:22Speaker 1: system did not fail by issuing false paperwork. The system
- 6:25Speaker 1: functioned exactly as designed. It trusted the person in the
- 6:29Speaker 1: room with the most information, and that person was Paula.
- 6:33Speaker 1: By October of two thousand nineteen, prescription bottles appeared in
- 6:37Speaker 1: the apartment on Sadler Street, four of them, each labeled
- 6:41Speaker 1: with Gregory's full name, each dated that month, each attributed
- 6:45Speaker 1: to doctor Fenn. Gregory never handled the bottles. When police
- 6:49Speaker 1: later asked him which medications he was taking, he could
- 6:53Speaker 1: not name them. He did not know his own diagnosis.
- 6:56Speaker 1: He had never been told, He said, his wife had
- 6:59Speaker 1: been handling that. Those seven words, one sentence, and in
- 7:04Speaker 1: it the entire architecture of what had been built around him.
- 7:08Speaker 1: Here is where the image loop splits open. The pharmacy
- 7:11Speaker 1: dispensing records showed two dosage adjustments in November and December
- 7:17Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Standard clinical practice requires a follow up appointment
- 7:21Speaker 1: before a dosage change. There were no corresponding appointments in
- 7:25Speaker 1: doctor Fenn's notes. The adjustments appeared in the pharmacy system,
- 7:30Speaker 1: they did not appear anywhere in the clinical record. Forensic
- 7:33Speaker 1: phone logs from Lakeview Behavioral identified the source of the
- 7:37Speaker 1: calls that initiated those adjustments. They came from Paula's cell phone.
- 7:42Speaker 1: She had access to billing credentials through her work in
- 7:45Speaker 1: medical billing. She knew the language, she knew the codes,
- 7:50Speaker 1: She knew which number to call and what to say
- 7:54Speaker 1: to get a prescription modified without triggering a review. The
- 7:57Speaker 1: system again did not malfunction. It processed the requests as
- 8:02Speaker 1: it would process any request from someone who sounded like
- 8:05Speaker 1: they knew what they were doing. Two dosage adjustments, no
- 8:09Speaker 1: clinic visits a cell phone. That is the loop that
- 8:13Speaker 1: had been sitting in the pharmacy records for two months
- 8:16Speaker 1: before anyone hooked. Mara Sheridan was the one who looked.
- 8:20Speaker 1: She was training as a nurse, living ninety minutes north
- 8:23Speaker 1: of the family house. She had received Paula's calls in
- 8:27Speaker 1: the late summer of twenty nineteen, the ones describing Gregory's
- 8:31Speaker 1: behavior in clinical terms, the ones that had made her
- 8:34Speaker 1: uneasy and a way she could not quite name. After
- 8:37Speaker 1: Gregory was admitted to Milford County Medical Center on the
- 8:41Speaker 1: night of December tenth, Mara drove down. She sat with
- 8:44Speaker 1: her brother. She asked him questions, simple ones. What are
- 8:49Speaker 1: you taking? Do you know what it's for? What did
- 8:52Speaker 1: the doctor say to you? Gregory could not answer any
- 8:56Speaker 1: of them. Mara asked to see the bottles. She looked
- 8:59Speaker 1: at the dose levels, She looked at the dates. She
- 9:02Speaker 1: was not yet a licensed nurse, but she knew enough
- 9:06Speaker 1: to know that what she was reading did not match
- 9:08Speaker 1: a patient who had been monitored. It matched a patient
- 9:11Speaker 1: who had been managed. She brought what she had found
- 9:14Speaker 1: to Kelly Donnelly. Kelly Donnelly was thirty one years old
- 9:18Speaker 1: and had spent four years working domestic cases at the
- 9:22Speaker 1: Milford County District Attorney's office. She had seen financial control.
- 9:27Speaker 1: She had seen isolation. She had seen people dismantled so
- 9:31Speaker 1: gradually that by the time anyone noticed, the person doing
- 9:34Speaker 1: the dismantling looked like the only stable thing in the room.
- 9:38Speaker 1: She recognized the shape of what Mara brought her. She
- 9:41Speaker 1: brought in Steve Parrish, a forensic financial investigator. He spent
- 9:46Speaker 1: three weeks inside Gregory's accounts. What he found was not
- 9:50Speaker 1: dramatic in any single entry. It was discipline over fourteen months,
- 9:55Speaker 1: forty one thousand dollars had moved from Gregory's accounts into
- 9:58Speaker 1: accounts belonging to Paula, never in a single large transfer,
- 10:03Speaker 1: always in increments calibrated to stay below the thresholds that
- 10:08Speaker 1: trigger automatic bank alerts, forty one thousand dollars fourteen months,
- 10:14Speaker 1: each transfer small enough to be invisible on its own.
- 10:18Speaker 1: Then the writing analysis came back. Investigators had photographed the
- 10:22Speaker 1: margins of Gregory's intake paperwork from Lakeview Behavioural The handwritten
- 10:28Speaker 1: annotations in the margins notes that appeared to be from
- 10:31Speaker 1: the patient's own hand matched Paula's handwriting, not Gregory's. She
- 10:36Speaker 1: had annotated his own psychiatric intake, and the annotations had
- 10:41Speaker 1: informed the diagnosis. And then there was the laminated card.
- 10:45Speaker 1: It had been sitting on the kitchen table in Apartment
- 10:48Speaker 1: two S on Sadler Street when first responders arrived on
- 10:52Speaker 1: the morning of December tenth. Carl Cooper, the sixty three
- 10:56Speaker 1: year old Wednesday lunch volunteer from First Redeemer Fellowship, had
- 11:00Speaker 1: found the front door open on his third stop of
- 11:03Speaker 1: his regular route. He called nine one one at nine
- 11:06Speaker 1: forty seven in the morning. The card was centered on
- 11:10Speaker 1: the table. It listed Gregory's full name, his date of birth,
- 11:14Speaker 1: his allergies, and his psychiatric diagnosis. The lamination was stiff.
- 11:19Speaker 1: Chris knew. The prosecution noted at trial that the card
- 11:25Speaker 1: had been prepared before Gregory's crisis, not during it. It
- 11:29Speaker 1: was not a document assembled in a moment of emergency.
- 11:33Speaker 1: It was a document assembled in anticipation of one. It
- 11:37Speaker 1: became exhibit one picture a scenario where Paula simply panicked,
- 11:42Speaker 1: Where the card was a frightened spouse's attempt to help
- 11:46Speaker 1: paramedics understand her husband's condition. Where the phone calls to
- 11:50Speaker 1: Lakeview were well intentioned but misguided. Where the financial transfers
- 11:55Speaker 1: had some explanation buried in joint expenses. Gregory had forgotten
- 11:59Speaker 1: about every one of those scenarios collapses against the same wall.
- 12:04Speaker 1: The handwriting in the intake margins. Paula had shaped the
- 12:07Speaker 1: diagnosis before the appointment, she had controlled the medication after it.
- 12:12Speaker 1: She had transferred the money in amounts chosen to avoid detection.
- 12:16Speaker 1: And she had prepared a laminated summary of a psychiatric
- 12:19Speaker 1: identity she had constructed ready to hand to any authority
- 12:24Speaker 1: who arrived. This was not panic. The evidence, according to prosecutors,
- 12:29Speaker 1: pointed to a deliberate and sustained sequence. But there was
- 12:32Speaker 1: a detail that had been sitting in the record since
- 12:35Speaker 1: before any of this began, a detail that changed the
- 12:38Speaker 1: question from whether this had happened to Gregory to whether
- 12:42Speaker 1: Gregory was the first. In two thousand fifteen, a forty
- 12:46Speaker 1: year old man named Alan Tish lost his house and
- 12:50Speaker 1: his retirement savings. The case was closed at the time
- 12:53Speaker 1: as a civil matter. No criminal charges were filed. The
- 12:57Speaker 1: name associated with the case in that neighboring state was
- 12:59Speaker 1: now Paula Williams. It took fourteen months after Paula's sentencing
- 13:04Speaker 1: for a DNA match from a hair brush in the
- 13:06Speaker 1: Tish case evidence file to come back as a confirmed
- 13:09Speaker 1: match to Paula Williams. She had used a different surname.
- 13:13Speaker 1: The civil case was reopened. Gregory Sheridan had not been
- 13:17Speaker 1: the beginning. He had been the continuation of something that
- 13:20Speaker 1: had already worked once before. Paula Williams was arrested on
- 13:24Speaker 1: December tenth, twenty nineteen. The charges were financial fraud, obtaining
- 13:31Speaker 1: prescriptions by deception, and domestic abuse causing bodily harm. She
- 13:36Speaker 1: maintained her innocence for eleven months After that, she maintained
- 13:40Speaker 1: it through the pre trial hearings, through the filing of exhibits,
- 13:44Speaker 1: through the first two days of trial testimony. On the
- 13:47Speaker 1: third day of trial, before the jury began deliberations, she confessed.
- 13:52Speaker 1: The plea was negotiated down to guilty on three of
- 13:55Speaker 1: the five original charges. The sentence was six years, with
- 13:59Speaker 1: eligibility for parole at four. A judge read the terms
- 14:03Speaker 1: in a corporal in Milford County. Paula Williams said nothing
- 14:07Speaker 1: recorded in the public transcript. The laminated card was entered
- 14:11Speaker 1: as Exhibit one by the prosecution. Kelly Donnelly, the victim
- 14:15Speaker 1: advocate who had sat with Gregory Sheridan through the initial interviews,
- 14:20Speaker 1: later described the card as the clearest physical compression of
- 14:24Speaker 1: the case she had seen in four years working domestic
- 14:27Speaker 1: abuse files, not because it was the most dramatic piece
- 14:30Speaker 1: of evidence, because it was the most prepared. The card
- 14:35Speaker 1: did not look like something made in crisis. It looked
- 14:38Speaker 1: like something made in advance by someone who expected to
- 14:41Speaker 1: need it. That distinction between crisis and preparation was the
- 14:46Speaker 1: axis the prosecution built its case on. Steve Parrish, the
- 14:50Speaker 1: forensic financial investigator spent three weeks tracing the movement of
- 14:55Speaker 1: Gregory's money. Forty one thousand dollars had been redirected from
- 15:00Speaker 1: Gregory's accounts to accounts controlled by Paula over the course
- 15:04Speaker 1: of fourteen months. The transfers were made in increments calibrated
- 15:08Speaker 1: to stay beneath automatic bank alert thresholds. That pattern, Perish
- 15:13Speaker 1: testified was not incidental. It required knowledge of how financial
- 15:18Speaker 1: monitoring systems work. Paula had that knowledge medical billing is
- 15:22Speaker 1: adjacent to insurance processing, to code leveled documentation, to the
- 15:27Speaker 1: architecture of how institutions tracked transactions. She understood the thresholds
- 15:32Speaker 1: because she worked in a system built around them. The
- 15:35Speaker 1: phone logs from Lakeview Behavioral confirmed what the handwriting analysis
- 15:39Speaker 1: had suggested. The calls that modified Gregory's prescriptions to dosage
- 15:44Speaker 1: adjustments in November and December twenty nineteen, with no corresponding
- 15:49Speaker 1: clinical appointments originated from Paula's personal cell phone. Gregory had
- 15:54Speaker 1: never held the bottles. He did not know the name
- 15:57Speaker 1: of his diagnosis. When First Respects asked him about his
- 16:01Speaker 1: medication on the night of December tenth, twenty nineteen, he
- 16:05Speaker 1: told them his wife had been handling that. By the
- 16:07Speaker 1: time the trial closed, the clinical record that had once
- 16:10Speaker 1: certified Gregory as psychiatrically impaired had been reconstructed, document by
- 16:15Speaker 1: document as a record of someone else's construction. The diagnosis
- 16:20Speaker 1: was real. The prescribing clinician, doctor M Fenn at Lakeview Behavioral,
- 16:25Speaker 1: had followed standard protocol. The intake had lasted forty minutes.
- 16:30Speaker 1: The system had worked exactly as it was designed to work.
- 16:34Speaker 1: It had simply been fed information assembled by someone who
- 16:37Speaker 1: understood how the system processed what it received. That understanding
- 16:42Speaker 1: clinical language, diagnostic framing, billing access, financial architecture had not
- 16:48Speaker 1: been accidental. It had been occupational. The Tish connection came
- 16:53Speaker 1: fourteen months after sentencing, when DNA from a hair brush
- 16:57Speaker 1: in the evidence file of a two thousand and fifth
- 17:00Speaker 1: teen civil case in a neighboring state was processed through
- 17:03Speaker 1: a routine cross check. The match came back as Paula Williams.
- 17:08Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen. She had used a different surname. Alan Tish,
- 17:13Speaker 1: then forty years old, had lost his house and his
- 17:16Speaker 1: retirement savings. That case had been closed as a civil matter,
- 17:21Speaker 1: it was reopened. The reopening did not alter Paula's sentence
- 17:25Speaker 1: in Milford County, but it changed the shape of what
- 17:28Speaker 1: prosecutors and victim advocates understood they were looking at. Gregory
- 17:33Speaker 1: Sheridan went back to Thursday board Games in February of
- 17:37Speaker 1: twenty twenty. Marcus Webb, who had hosted the group for
- 17:41Speaker 1: years and had watched Gregory disappear from it one absence
- 17:46Speaker 1: at a time, later told investigators that Gregory had simply
- 17:50Speaker 1: shown up at the door, no announcement, no explanation. He knocked,
- 17:57Speaker 1: Marcus opened the door, Gregory came in and sat down.
- 18:01Speaker 1: That detail is in the record because investigators asked about it.
- 18:04Speaker 1: It is not dramatic. It is not a resolution to
- 18:07Speaker 1: every question this case raises. It is just a man
- 18:11Speaker 1: at a door, eight weeks after his arrest, sitting down
- 18:14Speaker 1: with people who had known him before any of this happened.
- 18:17Speaker 1: This case is difficult in a specific way. It is
- 18:20Speaker 1: not difficult because the evidence is ambiguous. By the time
- 18:24Speaker 1: the trial reached its third day, the physical record was
- 18:27Speaker 1: dense and consistent. It is difficult because the mechanism at
- 18:31Speaker 1: the center of it, using clinical systems, financial systems, and
- 18:36Speaker 1: the trust of a person's own family to rewrite who
- 18:39Speaker 1: that person believes he is. Does not leave marks you
- 18:42Speaker 1: can see in a photograph. Gregory had no prior psychiatric
- 18:46Speaker 1: history before October two thousand eighteen. He had a job,
- 18:50Speaker 1: a sister ninety minutes away who called him regularly, a
- 18:54Speaker 1: group of friends he played board games with every Thursday.
- 18:58Speaker 1: None of those facts protected him from from what happened next.
- 19:01Speaker 1: They were not vulnerabilities. They were just the ordinary texture
- 19:06Speaker 1: of a life that was then systematically reorganized around someone
- 19:10Speaker 1: else's account of it. Mara Sheridan had been one of
- 19:13Speaker 1: the first people Paula called when she began presenting Gregory's
- 19:17Speaker 1: supposed condition to the family. She had heard the language,
- 19:21Speaker 1: the diagnostic framing, the careful, clinical vocabulary, and she had
- 19:25Speaker 1: believed it. She was a nurse in training. She knew
- 19:29Speaker 1: what those words meant. That knowledge made her more susceptible
- 19:32Speaker 1: to the framing, not less. When she finally saw the
- 19:36Speaker 1: prescription bottles and recognized the dosage adjustments that had no
- 19:39Speaker 1: clinical appointments behind them, she was looking at a system
- 19:42Speaker 1: she understood being used in a way she had not imagined.
- 19:47Speaker 1: That is what this case does to the people closest
- 19:50Speaker 1: to it. It does not exploit ignorance, it exploits competence.
- 19:55Speaker 1: Paula Williams will be eligible for parole consideration at the
- 19:58Speaker 1: four year mark of her The Tish case remains under
- 20:02Speaker 1: civil review in the neighboring jurisdiction. Gregory Sheridan's financial accounts,
- 20:08Speaker 1: according to public court records, were partially restored through civil
- 20:12Speaker 1: remedy proceedings following the criminal conviction. There is one image
- 20:16Speaker 1: from this case that stays in the record longer than
- 20:20Speaker 1: the others. Not the card, not the bottles, not the
- 20:23Speaker 1: phone longs from Lakeview. It is Carl Cooper, sixty three
- 20:27Speaker 1: years old, a volunteer who delivered lunches every Wednesday on
- 20:31Speaker 1: the same route for six years. He arrived at Apartment
- 20:34Speaker 1: two Sea on Sadler Street and found the door open.
- 20:38Speaker 1: He knocked anyway, He called out. When no one answered,
- 20:43Speaker 1: he called nine to one. He did not know Gregory Sheridan.
- 20:47Speaker 1: He was not a detective. He was the third stop
- 20:51Speaker 1: on a Wednesday lunch route and he noticed that a
- 20:54Speaker 1: door was open when it should have been closed. That
- 20:57Speaker 1: noticing that ordinary, unre remarkable act of paying attention is
- 21:02Speaker 1: what started everything that followed. What gets dismantled in a
- 21:06Speaker 1: case like this is not just a person's finances or
- 21:10Speaker 1: their medical record. It is the internal account a person
- 21:13Speaker 1: carries of who they are. Gregory Sheridan spent fourteen months
- 21:18Speaker 1: inside a version of himself that someone else had written.
- 21:21Speaker 1: The system that was supposed to protect him helped install it.
- 21:25Speaker 1: The people who loved him helped confirm it. Recovery from
- 21:28Speaker 1: that is not measured in court dates. It is measured
- 21:31Speaker 1: in whether a person can knock on a familiar door
- 21:34Speaker 1: and sit back down. He knocked, he sat down. This
- 21:38Speaker 1: show is made by Obomedia.