Latest / God + Mental Health Podcast / Spiritual Burnout: Why Doing Everything Right Left Kayla Andersen Too Tired to Open Her Bible

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Spiritual Burnout: Why Doing Everything Right Left Kayla Andersen Too Tired to Open Her Bible · God + Mental Health Podcast

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, and welcome you.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I listening to the God in mental health podcast.
• 0:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Rosalind.
• 0:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited to be back in front of the microphone with you this week.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have an amazing interview that I'm so excited to talk with Kayla about today.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Kayla Anderson.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you all are really going to enjoy this conversation.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Kayla is a writer, she is a blogger.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: She also is an amazing, amazing speaker and biblical researcher.
• 0:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm excited because we're going to talk about a topic that I think is so near and dear to my heart, as well as hers.
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we are going to talk a lot today about burnout.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we made tape into some conversation around church heart and trauma and really helping you get back into
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: wanting to get, could reconnect with God, especially after experiencing burnout.
• 0:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So hello, Kayla, how are you today?
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, I'm doing well.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am a Christian writer and speaker.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do writing for all sorts of nonprofits and ministries.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then as you said, I've been blogging for over 10 years.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just really wanting to get into some of these topics that we don't always have conversations about.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I also do retreat speaking and conference speaking and just wanting to engage and provide resources, especially in areas that
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's hard to find those resources, so my a lot of my work is kind of centered around that intersection between our face and pain that comes up in our life and what do we do then?
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, okay, so let's start with how you got here because I know I said we talked about burnout, but let's kind of start from the origin story of that and we can go wherever you would like to we don't have to go out the way back to childhood if you want to go there, we can but talk to us a little bit about like the origin story of your faith and how did it end up leading to burnout where you were like I actually want to write about this I want to share my story around this let's talk about like the origin story of your faith.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in a Christian home, which I feel so blessed to be able to say, but I was, you know, I grew up in the church my whole life, and I knew the Bible stories, I knew the Bible verses.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was in Sunday's school for as long as I can remember, and
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was also just a perfect recipe for leading towards some of this burnout later on because I just so badly wanted to do the right thing.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to know what is required of me and how do I accomplish that?
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is expected and how do I meet that?
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was a people-pleaser, a perfectionist, I was the eldest daughter in my family, it really was the perfect storm in a lot of ways because I just wanted to do the right thing, but it also led to a lot of performing my face, a lot of just overextending myself, and I didn't have a lot of the healthy rhythms that should be at the foundation, and so what ended up happening is I
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: at church probably five to seven days a week.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was involved in so many different ministry teams worship children's mystery.
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was a youth leader during the summers.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I helped run a summer camp.
• 3:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I, you know, in my mind, I was doing all the right things.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was involved as much as I could be.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that felt like what it
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: was to be a good Christian, and to just kind of pour myself into my faith.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then I got out of high school, I went to college, I went to Bible school, and then it was a whole new layer of reading the Bible as a textbook in doing all of these long theology papers, and
• 3:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: By the time I got out of college, I was so burnt out.
• 3:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was all of these things that I knew in my head, the answers to all of these questions.
• 3:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I knew what the Bible taught.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I knew who God was, but I could barely open my Bible anymore.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could barely walk into the doors of the church anymore.
• 4:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just like so exhausted.
• 4:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it felt like it was my fault.
• 4:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I just was failing God, I didn't want it enough.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't desire reading my Bible enough.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that just added layers of shame that made it heavier.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of a lot of where the burnout stemmed from, but it really stemmed from just wanting to do what was required of me.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what was asked of me and it'd be a good question.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then later on, I had trauma and church sort of stack on top of that, which was a lot of other layers, but that burnout really started young.
• 4:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it sounds like there was like a lot of rhythms and conditioning that in the way you were the way you grew up in church that created this, like you said, perfect recipe for this.
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you know when you were exhausted at the time
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And how long did that period last where you were feeling is I just don't even have the energy to open my Bible all of that.
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know that I had a ton of language for it like in high school.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just knew that I was tired, but I felt like I was supposed to just press through and persevere and you know, find joy in my faith.
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a lot of kind of white knuckling my faith that came from that.
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of like supposed to's that I had in my brain as like, you know, when you're tired,
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: when you, you know, are serving on teams and someone else needs help.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You say yes.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was something that I didn't totally have language for at the time.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know that I would have called it burnout because that was a word that I think a lot of people associate with like work and jobs and corporate culture.
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so the concept of being burnt out in my faith was
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, at that point that I could barely open my Bible, it really started with a lot of kind of shame of just feeling like, well, I know what I'm supposed to do.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like I don't want to do that, or I'm too tired to do that.
• 6:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what God expects of me.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm the one that's failing here.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what kind of led me on was a journey
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: rediscovering what faith could look like, and rediscovering how to engage with God's word, and rediscovering how to engage with the Lord and prayer, and I had a lot of checklists of this is what you have to do to be a good Christian, and this is what a quiet time looks like.
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is what it looks like to live out your faith, like if you're not serving in multiple teams then what are you doing?
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're like just apathetic, like a lot of like scripts like that going on and so to actually pull back, rediscover who I am and what got actually thinks not just what I'm afraid he's disappointed in.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: and then learn how to re-engage in new ways with new rhythms that actually felt really rejuvenating and life-giving.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was a whole process of discovery for me that now I try to help other people go down as well.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: You said a word that I think in my own walk with God, I have filled multiple times because of burnout.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll kind of go on the short tangent, burn out in ways to, I think the way that I have engaged with my faith has always been like you have a purpose and a plan for your life and God wants to use you.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there is this viewpoint of constantly feeling like you're being used by God or you are called to do something for him that it creates this dynamic of, after do, do, do, do, do all these things because I have to,
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know please the Lord.
• 8:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it kind of is this conjunction of burnout kind of similar to what you described.
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I have found in my own walk the burnout come because I wore myself out and then because like you described the disappointment, I'm disappointing the Lord.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you said a word that has come up so much apathy, where then the response to that tiredness or exhaustion is
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: disinterest.
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost like, for me, I have found myself disengage and fully abort anything related to my faith out of trying to almost rebel against this feeling that I constantly, like, I love the Lord, but then when I get into the cycle, I get tired and then I just want to completely disengage.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So talk about apathy because it can be different for every person.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, for me, it was almost like a disengagement for other people that could be the white knuggling that you describe where they just kind of push through, but they don't have that refreshment.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it like for you and describe apathy for people who may not know that they might be dealing with that?
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's a great point because I don't know that in these moments I would have used the word apathy, but I think that was definitely a piece of the puzzle, but it's so interesting to kind of unravel what was going on down the line looking back when I have kind of a bigger picture of it because in my mind, apathy is not caring.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I would have told
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to, you know, please the Lord.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to be engaged with my church.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to serve in ministry.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want, like, these are things that I want to do.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, even in moments when I'm really exhausted, I theoretically still want it.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the behavior in the way that my body and mind are reacting to the exhaustion is kind of that apathy and practice, even if cognitively I say, like, this is what I want to do.
• 10:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that I think the way that played out for me was yes, either white knuckling where it kind of became this disconnection between what was happening internally and what was happening externally.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So then my face became more about like this external.
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: performance, not in a disingenuine way, like I really did want to be involved in all these things, but I wasn't truly tuned into what my capacity was, what I needed, how I needed to engage with the Lord.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just, this is what I need to do.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the checklist that these are the ministries that need help.
• 10:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it became very disconnected externally what I was doing and participating in versus
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: part of this journey is giving ourselves permission to be the perfect Christian that we've worked so hard to become.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: By the time I was out of high school into college, in the height of this, I was like, okay, I know how to live out my faith in this whole-hearted way.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, not read my Bible in the same like super academic way I had and it was really giving myself permission to acknowledge, hey, I'm actually really exhausted and then being curious about what was going on internally.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: and believing that God is also curious and gracious in those things, and then giving ourselves permission to be honest with him.
• 12:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because like you said at the beginning there, it can often become this mindset of like God is using me.
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm not
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: productive, or if I'm not, you know, involved in certain ministries or doing certain types of service, then what use am I?
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Am I actually pleasing the Lord?
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Am I actually living out my faith?
• 12:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to start from a place of
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: having our face start from the internal, like he cares about our heart, he cares about this foundation.
• 12:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when that gets disconnected and we're now doing all of the right things as this checklist, but internally something is breaking apart, something isn't working anymore.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's how we get into this place of burnout, of fracture, of
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: like things falling apart of apathy because we are now disconnected from what's happening internally or we are disconnecting what's happening internally from God because we think it will disappoint him so we're not even going to be really honest with him about our exhaustion.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll just say
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'll still read my Bible God.
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't worry.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got it.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we're not actually being honest with like, hey, I actually feel exhausted at even the thought of opening my Bible right now or actually like the thought of coming to and prayer makes me think of all the ways I must not be like measuring up and all the ways you must be disappointed in me.
• 13:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't even want to pray right now or you know, I I love going to see my friends at
• 13:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much longer I can do this rhythm that feels unsustainable, and so it starts with that permission, that curiosity, and that honesty with God, which often takes time to just sit with it, and it's uncomfortable because it's not like the right churchy answers me know, it requires a digging deeper with the Lord.
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything you said, I wanted to interrupt you so many times and like say something, but I was trying to just let you run with your
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, and I want to get into maybe a little bit about what happened with you for church hurt because I think, but I want to go back to the being honest with God around this.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to add to that I think also the other piece of it is.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: the lack of exposure that Christians are experiencing this and because we probably are ourselves to ashamed to say we feel this way because of the optics of what that's going to look like of how we look and I would name and I know this to be true is the more vulnerable we are with each other.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: the less we experience and the more we get to connect and not feel lonely.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think when you're in seasons like that, there is such a deep loneliness which sometimes you don't even know that you're alone because externally you're getting validation for all of the things you're doing.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Until it's kind of this inward outward,
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: contradiction in a way where, externally, you're getting validation, but inwardly, you feel horrible.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you feel like this is the identity that God has created for you, which in all actuality will go deeper until like the healing part of this, we end up finding and being curious about it.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We end up finding that that is actually not the way the Lord designed us to be.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And wants us to operate in relationship with Him.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so talk about before we get into like some of maybe the trauma you experienced in church her, what do you think the fear is for people to explore it?
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I could add to it, I think it's a lack of other people talking about it.
• 15:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the loneliness and isolation and the feelings of shame.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also, as you're talking about this, feel like a lot of people feel fearful about that change.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a scary change to go from something you're currently experiencing something you've never really heard as happening, but it feels true.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can we pause just a minute and can you restate that question?
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, what do you think is the fear for people to get curious?
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the fear is when you have worked hard towards pleasing God, which especially if you come from a people pleasing perfectionistic background or a lot of times just women in the church in general have
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of been growing up to please others and please God.
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's so innate in us.
• 16:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't even realize it sometimes.
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that that stems this kind of posture towards the world of what is required of me.
• 16:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We look towards others to see what the answer to that question is, and not only are we looking towards, you know, teachers in school or parent toll figures at home, but now in the church we're also looking towards pastors and Sunday school leaders and youth leaders.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: what is required of me.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you also have kind of a pretty normal, like a normal setup for most churches, is that when you get involved, when you start attending, you know, sometimes there's a membership process, sometimes there's, you know, more classes you can go to or more things you can participate in, but often if you want to like really plug in,
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: get involved in a ministry team, get involved in serving.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's that is the way to opt further into your faith.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that all of that mixes together to make it kind of scary when something about that isn't working because you're doing all of the right things.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So therefore if something's
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It must not be that like something's wrong with the church or something's wrong with the people that are leading me or something like we don't question that and and many times there's nothing like unless there's like some crazy stuff going on it's not something that is wrong necessarily it's just that like the way to opt into your faith is to serve more to do more.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: To participate more and if you're looking towards all the people in your life to say what is required of me?
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do I please others?
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do I please God?
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: then often we're not even asking questions of, you know, what does it look like to go deeper and my relationship with the Lord and to receive from Him?
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does it look like to hear from Him or what does it look like to bring questions to Him?
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember growing up in church because I knew all of the answers and all of like what the Bible said,
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: asking questions at all felt like I must be going down some slippery slope or I must be doubting my faith because I was supposed to know the answers and I was supposed to know what the Bible said and so asking questions becomes really scary because it turns all of that on its head when really that curiosity to say hey what's not working is so helpful to move forward towards
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: rhythms that are not just based in what I'm doing for God, but are based in who God says I am, and based in the fact that God delights in me apart from what I do from Him.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: If I never do another thing for the Lord, I am still loved.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we know that, but we don't always experience that.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's two things like two pictures in my mind that came up when you said that and I think about a friendship.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Me and my best friend who had been really good friends for eight years, she recently moved to another city and since she's moved we've both been so busy that there is a distance in our communication.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can remember feeling it first, like, and we've talked about it.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I can remember feeling it first, like our relationship is different.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we're not going to be the best.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Friends anymore, like, none of our love for each other shifted, our communication frequency just shifted.
• 20:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we don't look at sometimes our relationship with God the same and we get curious about what's happening instead of we kind of just like you talked about white, neglect and try to see what more can I do to maybe fix it.
• 20:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like the response to the discomfort is to do more because we think in doing that is our receiving.
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you're also naming was just the second thing which is really, really,
• 20:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe about a month ago and I just have been sitting on an ensuing on it and he was like Roslyn, you know, you live life seasonally, not generally, meaning like seasons are going to change in your life consistently, you're not going to be a mom of a 5 and a 3-year-old for the rest of your life.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: When those boys turn 15 and 15 or let me just think of around number
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: 15, 15 and 13 just my boys are two years apart.
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: My life is going to be different.
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so the season shifts and so I think what your name is like just because I serve once or serve for a season doesn't mean I have to serve all the time to be a requirement to dive deep in my faith.
• 21:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: There may be seasons where I am serving and seasons I am receiving.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe seasons where I serve three times a week and take off one week, like you talked about the practices which we can get into.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think because there is like a diving deep kind of approach sometimes within and not to say these systems in church are bad.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're helpful to engage in, they're helpful for people who might be new in the faith to understand,
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a way for us to get out of our traditional knots if I have to do something that is helpful in serving others in the ways.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think the set up of these things is wrong.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think what your naming is like, the seasonality changes based on your season of life and your season with the Lord.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are seasons where you are diving deep with the Lord.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You might be fasting and praying.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then there might be seasons where he's like rest,
• 22:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: go for a walk, touch some grass, and then there's seasons where it's really complicated in your life, relationship, wise, but work is flourishing.
• 22:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's where yours kind of talking about this seasonality within some of this.
• 22:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that can be a helpful lens for people to not feel like in Ecclesi S63 talks about all the different seasons.
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: of life.
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for, and I think that fear piece is so good for you to say is like, it kind of, the fear is like, if I, if I were to touch this, would I then be throwing my faith away?
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is such a black and white way to think about curiosity in our relationship with God, because it's not that way, but I think sometimes we think of it that way.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that fear, it can be so subtle, but it can be so driving, like we don't realize how many decisions we make out of that fear of what if God's disappointed in me or that fear of that like entering and engaging in that curiosity.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because God never asks us never to ask him questions.
• 23:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's an entire, there's an entire heritage throughout Scripture, especially the Jewish people and the Jewish faith that like,
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: permeates the Old Testament is it it is a culture and a heritage of curiosity with God and wrestling with God.
• 24:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: The whole discipleship process that Jesus pulls from, that the rabbis are using during his time on earth
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: is so based in question asking.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one thing that our modern Christian culture has kind of minimized is that value of question asking.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We think that new believers ask questions, but once you've been in the faith that whether you grew up as a kid or whether you've just been in the church as an adult for a long time, now you know the answers.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't have to ask the
• 24:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: but it becomes a process of almost like perfecting this technique or this method or this performance of faith rather than actually engaging in relationship.
• 24:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you think of, you know, that why stage the toddlers go through or they're just like, why, why, why, like that is relational.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is how we draw near to God by asking him our questions and by engaging with curiosity and by acknowledging that we don't know and when we have moments of pain, actually wrestling with God and contending with God, which is a terrifying thing for many of us, but there is a huge heritage of that throughout Scripture that we are called to.
• 25:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm like jumping around in myself because as you're saying this, I'm like, yes, there is an entire need to continue with the Lord because
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: and falling deeper in love with him on a consistent basis, you see how much God is hand is intricate in your life and you want to understand.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think on a humanistic level, God is not trying to create relationship with us with no understanding.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think he wants us to ask the questions.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: He wants something like this invitation,
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if we look at curiosity as an invitation to ask God questions, I think a lot of times we've learned like you shouldn't question God, but I just think about when Jesus was on that, when people say that I always think about when Jesus was on the cross and he said, why have you forsaken me?
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is a, I am experiencing a gruesome death.
• 26:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: why have you left me?
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it becomes this opportunity and invitation I think that you're naming to explore more with the Lord and kind of seek him almost.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Seeking requires questions.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for you, when you were coming out of that stage and I know we probably didn't get too much into the trauma story, but if you want to touch on that you can, how did you recover?
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're some of the things you learned and or we're some of the practices that you implemented that have now helped you navigate that song.
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's through several different sides to recovery and one of them is just being giving yourself permission to step back.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Recovery from any type of pain takes time and when we feel this pressure on ourselves to just rush from point A to point B and a lot of us do feel that pressure because we feel that kind of pressure to know the answers and know what the verses say
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: We forget how beautiful the process is of being in process with the Lord that he is actually the one directing our steps and he is the one that is nourishing us and pouring out his beer on us when we need his help, that we don't have to whitenaclit, we don't have to figure it out, we don't have to see the five-year plan, we can come to him every day and truly just be like, hey, God, I...
• 27:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: don't know what's happening.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to move forward.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to want you and I also can acknowledge that I don't want you today.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just gonna bring that before you and be honest.
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And those are scary prayers to pray when you're not used to it.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they even feel irreverent when you're used to kind of tying things up in a really positive bow.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you have to remember even the lament Psalms and scripture
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they end in praise, but they started with that wrestling.
• 28:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't have to rush to that last verse because there is an entire process.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Lord brings us through.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, we might end and saying, but Lord, I will still praise you.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't have to happen in five minutes.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: That can be weeks long months long.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So talk about the limit, I think,
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a like I think you said it so perfectly are around there can sometimes feel like it's an We're not giving reverence to that because of that and I can remember a very short story This was probably when I had my first son So we're at 23.
• 28:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was smack dab in the middle of a wilderness season
• 28:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember we were really struggling financially, and got it told me we were going to be an amenacy's, and essentially.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember driving down this road in my city, and I didn't have enough money to go send my son to speech therapy because we had a high deductible farm insurance.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember crying while I was driving, and I said, God, what more do you want from me?
• 29:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, I don't have financial resources to provide therapy from my child and you have me in this space that you told me we were going to be here, what more do you want for me?
• 29:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was almost like a sadness in an anger that wasn't like a, I know we're in this season and you're going to bring us out.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I'm actually very angry about this.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm actually very frustrated about this.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's this truthful honesty that I think
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: God doesn't shy away from and David expressed it consistently.
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: all the time to the Lord about His emotions.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you're naming as you talk about more about it, I think it's God wants this connection with us in all of our emotions, not just the honoring, but even the deep sorrow, because Jesus being the comfort or with Holy Spirit, being the comforter was designed for us to experience comfort from Him in pain, and to be with Him in pain.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so talk about the lamenting,
• 30:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Talk about what that expression of honesty can do for someone that may not feel comfortable doing that.
• 30:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to first say that the first time I learned how to lament, it felt like self-pity and I just want to name that because if you are used to only focusing on the positive spin of your faith or almost minimizing or downplaying your own pain and just bringing your praise to the Lord.
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: then we are not practiced.
• 30:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have the muscle yet exercise to actually sit in the tension of God is good and this is not.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is essentially what lament is and I'm so thankful that God knew we would need this process and so He gave us not only examples of it but He gave us language to borrow.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there are so many lament songs throughout the book of Psalms, many written by David, and that's a man after God's own heart.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we can look at that and know that God God.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: loved David.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is not someone going off on some side tangent, like he loved David and David engaged in this process.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: The men's songs have this structure to them where you basically name what's wrong.
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's not going right and you bring it to the Lord and you say, hey,
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Listen to me.
• 32:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do something about this.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I meet like if I need anyone to intervene.
• 32:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's you.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: The God of the universe who can do something when I told the crash out.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I call it.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We crash.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I got.
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We can say, Hey, this is not right.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like this.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in pain and you should care about this.
• 32:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You should do something about this.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I mean, sometimes it's taking God's own promises and throwing them back at him and saying, Hey, you said you'd be my provider and here I am in the situation where I'm not provided for like what am I supposed to do or you said that you like,
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: are a loving father, and yet every time I come to him prayer, I feel like you're so far away, or you say that you will bring justice and truth, and yeah, I've had this injustice done against me, and it feels like you don't even care, or like there are so many moments like that that we can just bring to the Lord.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: and contend and wrestle with him.
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: He encourages that.
• 32:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: He wants us because that is how we draw near to him in our pain.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The alternative is backing away from him and then the only messages you're receiving are whatever your fears are or your insecurities are about God like
• 33:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: He must not love me, he must not care.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if we bring these painful moments to him and we just embrace them and name them, he is so delighted with that because that's like when your kid falls down and scrapes their knee, you want them just to come running into your arms.
• 33:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want them to try to fix it first and then come.
• 33:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it is that is the intimate relationship we have access to.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so in these moments,
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: that I had experienced a lot of church her, I spent a lot of my 20s in a ministry that ultimately imploded.
• 33:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I felt like, Lord, I've given everything for you.
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here I am, and I feel like just a pawn on this chessboard that you're using for some greater good, but it is destroying me in the process.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure if I will recover.
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I really felt like I have made it through a lot of
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: this might be the one that I can't come back from, and it feels like you don't even care.
• 34:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just got this image as I was wrestling with the word on that of a young child just like throwing punches at their father and their father just like pulling them in tighter into embrace.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is our father and he loves us and he wants us to come to him with our pain and
• 34:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but it's all better now because if we skip over the grieving and the lamenting and the wrestling then we don't actually get to risk like experience the healing and the restoration we just try to like ignore the pain and fix it ourselves, which doesn't actually heal us from within like the Lord can when we just bring it to him and receive from him.
• 35:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 35:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me of the scripture when Jesus was healing the Bautormative Boy and the father said to him, like, I believe, but help me with my unbelief.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's this honesty that I think more of us could have that kind of envelopes the shame.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me also two of when Adam and Eve, I always think of this picture, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree and God came walking, looking for them and he said, Adam, where are you?
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Adam said to him, I was ashamed, so I hid and shame makes us hide away from God.
• 35:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It makes us pull ourselves back and retract and the Lord said to Adam, you know,
• 35:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I always think of my, I always think to myself, like you were never supposed to not be transparent.
• 36:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You were never supposed to be covered.
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You were never supposed to be hiding away from me.
• 36:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, who told you that you were negative?
• 36:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who told you that this was not the appropriate position you were supposed to be in fully exposed, fully vulnerable and unashamed?
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that God's question to Adam was, I would always say to myself, I wonder what would have happened if he had a blade to Eve and he said, yes, I did eat from the tree.
• 36:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like what would have shifted if he had been honest with him instead of feeling like he had to retract and pull away into our blame we're not taking accountability, et cetera.
• 36:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think sometimes we think that not being honest fully with God almost regulates him in a way like from not being angry with us instead of us being dysregulated fully with him.
• 36:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what I mean dysregulators like fully molding with him could actually be the answer.
• 36:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
• 36:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to protect him from our emotions, and he can take them in.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you mentioned Psalm 22 earlier that Jesus quoted from the cross.
• 37:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lament Psalm that Jesus was polling from.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if Jesus even in his humanity was able to pull from this language that has given it been given to us to ask, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is the model we've been given.
• 37:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we don't have to pull back.
• 37:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to make our feeling smaller or more palatable.
• 37:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: We do that so often for other people, especially if we are people-pleasers.
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we don't have to do that with God.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to be, I think, one of the biggest shifts in my faith was when I went from being God's teacher's pet to actually just being myself and actually just bringing everything to him and trusting him enough.
• 37:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: that he has delight in me.
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's excited when I come to him.
• 37:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's not like, oh, folded arms disappointed.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's excited and trusting that if I bring some really messy untangled up thing to him that I can't even make sense of, he can take it from there.
• 38:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't actually have to do prep work to bring it to him.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
• 38:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 38:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love this so much.
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to talk about this more.
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So just in closing, why don't you tell us a little bit about like spiritual practices people could use if they are dealing with a cover.
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know we used to heavily around limit because I think that's one that we don't talk about enough.
• 38:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what would be some of the tips or practices, as I would say, if people can use to help them if they're dealing with this?
• 38:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say some of it is structure.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I found structure to be so freeing that I don't actually have to feel any certain way when I come to God.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to have any sort of type of, you know, really polished prayer.
• 39:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can just bring my full self in this moment to him.
• 39:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's sometimes it's the structure of meeting with God.
• 39:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Same time, same place every day.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's the structure of, you know, sometimes I will just read there's many different like ray the Bible through a year after Bible reading plans.
• 39:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes just having that already decided for you takes the pressure off because if you feel the pressure to have like this really significant hour-long Bible study that you just like are directed into a certain passage and you just dig deep.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's so much pressure when you are not running at a hundred percent.
• 39:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're also chasing a feeling, like you're chasing the super huge download from the Lord, and it may not be that way.
• 39:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so it's letting go of all the supposed tools that you feel like your faith should look a certain way or your time with God should look a certain way.
• 39:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what are like simple ways we can just, you know,
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: play worship music while we're washing the dishes or have a Bible reading plan that I just come to every day and I expect Jesus is there and he will meet with me and he will speak to me and I don't have to bring anything.
• 40:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just come and meet with him there or just the structure of having time to even tune in with yourself.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So many of us are rushing around and we don't even have that time to like check in and be like, where am I at?
• 40:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Should I say no to something this week?
• 40:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Should I like structure my calendar differently?
• 40:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that that all is just cutting structures in place so that when you're not running at a hundred percent, you can fall back on the structures you've already set up that even on autopilot, you're walking with Jesus throughout your day.
• 40:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
• 40:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
• 40:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 40:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that so much.
• 40:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kayla.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is fantastic.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you tell the people where they can find you and gauge your content Whether on social media or even through your blog, and I will have all of Kayla's information in the show notes for you all But why don't you tell us where they can find you
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have a website called TakeItFromKala.com and my social media on pretty much every platform and sub-steck as well is TakeItFromKala, so if you look me up there, you'll find me.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've created resources specifically for recovering from spiritual burnout.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have several series on my blog about spiritual burnout and lament.
• 41:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I also have a resource I created just for this because I did not find any tools for burnout in your faith.
• 41:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I created a blueprint that has scripts to say no.
• 41:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has the seven different times types of rest and how to engage in them when you're not sure what to do.
• 41:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has scripture to help us actually learn how to set new rhythms, ideas, and journal prompts to engage and reconnect with God
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Find new rhythms for your calendar, just a ton of stuff there that can help kind of find a path forward without adding to your to-do list.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 42:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 42:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this was an amazing conversation.
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank y'all so much for listening this week.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I look forward to seeing you next week on another episode of The Got Talent in Hope podcast.
• 42:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much, Kayla.
• 42:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.