Latest / Graymalkin Lane the podcast / Bonus Patreon Release: Man-Killer! With Joe Jones and Sara Century! Plus a Red Skull conversation with Shawn Porett!

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Bonus Patreon Release: Man-Killer! With Joe Jones and Sara Century! Plus a Red Skull conversation with Shawn Porett! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Graimalken Lane channel, Patreon for the Graimalken Lane Patreon channel.
• 0:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am so excited to be recording after such a long work week with my dear friends, Sarah's Century and Jo Jones.
• 0:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have so much fun tonight.
• 0:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have been listening, we are covering one from each letter in the queer alphabet of the four main letters over on the Patreon channel.
• 0:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: month.
• 0:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's LGB and T. This is the lesbian character.
• 0:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking all about the character man-killer.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Katrina Luisa van Juan.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love her.
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's crazy and represents some big problems but also does it so well.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so happy to have both Joe and Sarah here.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me have you both introduce yourselves and I'd love to hear some of your preliminary thoughts on a man killer.
• 0:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe like your preliminary like before you did the research, like what was your knowledge of this character?
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome my friend Joe.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe's back to the show, hi, Joe.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: Chad, thank you for having me.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's great to be back.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's been too long, my friend.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: It has been.
• 0:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: So this is a character that I didn't know about until you sent me the info about her, but when I saw that her like, co-name was man killer is like, this character's gonna be great.
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Just with a name like that, you know, she's gonna be a lot and a very extra and she definitely delivers on that.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of people who are a lot and extra, let me welcome Sarah Centrie back to the show as well.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's true.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is a lot.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm happy to be here.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am Sarah's Century of the famous website, Sarah's Century.com where people can find me and the things that I thought about Mankil, is she's a classic?
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: because there's the straw feminist character, right?
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's like a villain and she's just like, I hate all the men.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna blow up Earth just to kill the men or whatever nonsense.
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really fun.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I only knew her basically from popping up in like the Thunderbolts and stuff.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, I'm always happy to welcome a man killer, I guess, to the to the chat.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love her in Thunderbolts, which is where I met her too, but when you go back and read her first couple appearances, my award was that crazy to revisit as like an educated adult person.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, geez, this is crazy.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to jump back to my college era.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was a returned Mormon missionary.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did my first two years at a Mormon school, which is crazy.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then my last two year, well, my last four years at contemporary schools.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the first classes I signed up for when I decided on social work was a major was a gender studies course.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was the only LDS person in the room.
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was closeted gay and boy did I have a lot to learn.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was so much misogynistic thinking built into my world that I had no idea existed.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just is not something I had ever examined before.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, I might be the guy that would like casually throw the word like Feminazi into a conversation and then have a room full of like 30 female students very upset for very obvious reasons and something I very quickly learned beginning with that class and it changed my entire value system.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: is that there are words to insult women in so many ways.
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are words to insult women who are too innocent or too experienced, who are too old or too fat or too ugly, who are too virtuous or are too a period.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a word to shame every kind of woman, and there's like synonyms of each one of them.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those types of words just don't exist for men, and it gets kind of uncomfortable when you look into all of that.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're jumping right into the deep end with this conversation, because this character's name is man-killer, which she has to choose as kind of a reclamation for herself.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that term itself is not a pleasant term.
• 3:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, in the way that most people use it in our American vernacular.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really funny kind of, I mean, what a name, right?
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that this is the one where they lean the most into the massantry of the character, right?
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like they have like superior and superior talks a lot about, you know, the superiority of women back in the day, like Valkyrie was kind of a straw feminist character of the same way.
• 4:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, kind of a specifically targeted thing, right?
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because she's a lesbian from what I can tell.
• 4:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think like later, they more or less confirmed that with just having like, end-to-go girls button on for suspenders.
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's maybe gay.
• 4:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that you hear a lot.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, as a lesbian, I hear people say.
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, why do you hate men?
• 4:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like the only reason people frame it is like the framing itself is completely broken, right?
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's because it just doesn't make sense to them that I would just be interested in women, right?
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so something like man-killer is very targeted, right?
• 4:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost a little homophobic.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely like, pretty against women's rights.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting and this character, but as so many of the straw feminist characters do, she ends up being kind of awesome in the end.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: because even though she's like terrorizing the men, right?
• 4:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're just like, Peter Parker's being a jerk.
• 4:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: He kind of deserves it, like.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it ends up being kind of a fine and a weird way.
• 5:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like, honestly, like the way that our society even is set up is like, if you don't pay attention to men, or if you're not like interested in men, that's the same as killing them, right?
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like you are killing the men, like to not be interested in them.
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, man, killers, like a very interesting name.
• 5:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to define misandry for our listening audience who may not know?
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the saying I think that explains that the best because misandry is to hate men, right?
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's often just compared to being the flip side of misogyny, but again, the framework of that is really broken because while misandry might be annoying to some people, misogyny actually kills, right?
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like not often is misandry, like the reason of someone's death.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it's happened.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just not that common, particularly if you view the statistics.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, this is very like gender binary.
• 5:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're probably going to fall into a lot of gender binary discussion just because that's the framework.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, the framework doesn't really work.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not really good for these conversations.
• 6:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because as I said, you know, they view misandry as being this like equally bad thing.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, but there's no victims.
• 6:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like our society doesn't do the same thing to them, you know?
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, men, men being responsible for 95% of the world's violence and terrible murders and sexual assaults, but also society's built around the idea that women can only have one man and they have no value once their virtue has been taken.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, we have things like female genital mutilation.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: God, we could get deep in the woods here.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in American society, in particular, there's low level misogyny and very high level misogyny.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: High level misogyny from sexual assault to female discrimination in the workplace to denial of rights, historically women didn't have the right to vote.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: For example,
• 6:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we have more subtle stuff.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, in preparation for this, I was thinking back to my childhood, all of the little examples of like how it's hilarious when a man dresses as a woman in whatever, you know, comedy.
• 7:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when a woman dresses as a man, there's a certain kind of rage that shows up.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking back to the Rugrats, or just gotten not the Rugrats.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll throw through, I'm sure that too.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The little rascals movie growing up, where's the
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wear the he men women haters club, you know, like it's so for it's like so consistent through all of our everything that we've ever consumed in media and still is very largely present today in every category from sports to politics to everything else.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Using the term, man killer, if we're just thinking of terms that are kind of anti-woman, I'm going to give you both a little quiz really quickly.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll show you how you go first.
• 7:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which one of these sounds like an actual marble character?
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: A man-eater or ballbuster?
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to say that ballbuster is the marble character.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Man-eater is, but boy would be a fun character to create.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Man-eater was my first guest, but then I started second guest in myself.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, oh, but they would love to do like a character that's like ballbuster, right?
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that sounds like a Deadpool villain.
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think, which one is a Marvel character?
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dominatrix or Herodon?
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dominatrix?
• 8:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Herodon.
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Herodon is one of those, Herodon's, one of those, that old lady that drains your life force that's, like, part of, like, cloud and serif and the new defenders.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do remember now.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe which one is a Marvel's character?
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Old Bat or Shrew.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shrew?
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shrew?
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shrew?
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's part of the house bells during the X-factor era with like a with Bricat.
• 8:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember all those?
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 8:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, do we have a home record or the hag?
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why not though?
• 8:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will say a home record maybe.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the Hag and there's actually more than on Hag, the most recent in-gale Simone's uncanny X-Men.
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: That lady in the woods that used to date Xavier, that's part of the new uncanny X-Men line.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Her name is the Hag.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Last one, the Harpy or the Cron.
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Harpy.
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Both of these are moral characters.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Trick question.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I knew that heartbeat for sure because I love the heartbeat because she was the best.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I could literally list like 30 more words that like are shaming women.
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't go to all of the ones that like shame women for having lots of sex, right?
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's a different category.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's also a strong feminist movement through the 60s and 70s if you think of glorious.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're so many books and texts.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've read a lot of them.
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an era of history.
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by it.
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the era that Mankiller was born into.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: uniquely it was an era that broke the brains of male writers frankly, because it comes up all of the time.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're just like, y'all need to calm down.
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they really are afraid that like, women's live is like coming after them.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: who's spider-woman and valkyrie and a bunch of characters are like the feminist versions of these characters.
• 9:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Black Widow went from being like, I love you Hawkeye to like, Daredevil.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love you, but I have to have my own life too.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like there's all these tortured women through this era.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is when Jean Gregg got the Phoenix.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the era when Man Killer first shows up.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she's in Marvel team up number eight, April 1973.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an era called second wave feminism.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Go look it up.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really an interesting time.
• 10:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about a few key things in this era, uh, particularly the scum manifesto, which we'll get to in just a minute, which is a crazy part of American history if you've never heard of it.
• 10:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Mancular was created by Jerry Conway and Jim Mooney.
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And on the cover, we see Spider-Man and the cat who already is kind of a feminist icon in that lindophyte, the first woman writer at Marvel wrote the cat,
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Go back and listen to my episode with my dear friend Linda.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are fighting a woman on the cover who's wearing kind of like a red exoskeleton Her arms are her thighs are bare she's blonde.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's tall.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's statue-esque.
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's giving Amazon in some ways It says enter the murderously magnificent girl.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They call them man killer and y'all.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has the sign for woman like hanging from her belt resting on her crotch Like like the like the symbol for women like the international symbol for women
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: The title of the story is the man killer moves in midnight, and a mayor has been killed at the hands of militants.
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: The cat is on the prowl, this is Greer Nelson, who's later tiger.
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's identified the assassin.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's Katrina Luisa von Horn, the man killer.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say it like that every time.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, quote, it started a week ago during a street rally for mayor Samuels.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd been following the old man's campaign.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in case you didn't know, Samuels was violently anti-women's lid.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or at least he wasn't
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: A stab of intuition made me glance upward.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the cat narrating, by the way.
• 11:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's time to catch a shaft of sunlight, glinting off metal of the rooftop across for me.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And without another thought, I moved the cat yells, hold it.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going anywhere, sass and understand?
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Not anywhere ever in the man-killer replies, back off to the till-go.
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you want to offer a rough route, and I'm just the woman to do it, honey.
• 11:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're better believe it, the man-killer.
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the accent you're getting for Katrina, by the way.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is, uh, she's Swiss, I believe.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the nationality.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, it just, it's like something you would see it, pride, basically.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, you see this woman.
• 12:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's got the woman simple, like, right over her crotch.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is like, it's not subtle.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a feeling that they knew what they were doing, right?
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're like, oh, totally, like, it's totally fine on the crotch.
• 12:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's like great.
• 12:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's really funny.
• 12:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're just like, yeah, that is really funny
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: This outfit is pretty good.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It changes pretty much every time we see her though, so like it'll just kind of keep rolling over.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, the earlier ones I think are the best ones.
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's in a cat fight with the cat.
• 12:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the Battle of feminist stereotypes right from the beginning.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mancular knocks cat out with a one punch though.
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lump.
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now cats awake and she's desperate to find the man killer.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: If she isn't stopped, she'll destroy everything women have fought for.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: The precious little we've gained.
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Katrina that rejoins her girl gang by punching down a wall and they're like what the fuck Katrina and there's a man there Okay, so this is basically scum.
• 13:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna pause for an oratory on the scum manifesto Sarah's century.
• 13:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you tell us about the society for cutting up men This is S.C.U.M.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a Marvel group.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a real thing in history from 1967
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so this society for cutting up men is Valerie Solonis, who is known for shooting Andy Warhol and also for writing this gun manifesto, which it's my maybe be satire, I don't know, people sometimes say it's satire, Mary Harry and the director did the movie, I shot Andy Warhol and like apparently she thinks it's hilarious book.
• 13:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: is like this is so funny it's obviously like a satire of Freud and his theory of femininity because instead of like penis and v you have pussy and v in this gun manifesto but the general gist of it is that all men are incomplete females right and again we're talking like this is all gonna be super binary to a point that would probably be offensive to a lot of people frankly but it's 1967
• 14:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's 1967 also this is like I would I'm not trying to diagnose anybody, but I'm kind of say that the person who shot Andy Warhol is maybe like a little bit on the ledge, you know, basically just like, you know, men of corrupt society women have to fix it and it's just this kind of idea that men really have to be taken out of power by women.
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: right, like it's not enough for there to be a quality, there has to be a matriarchy instead.
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, then you have like Solannus's feminism, which isn't necessarily that great to women either because they think that you know, you're either like brainwashed or you're like down with the cause, basically.
• 14:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And those are kind of the only two options it feels like.
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a crazy thing, go look at the character Thundra as a really weird counter to all of this from this like Amazon society where we don't need men at all.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe had you ever heard of the scum manifesto prior to this because it's a whole education.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know that was new for me, but it was fascinating to hear about.
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've heard about like the any war hall thing, but I didn't know that that was connected to scum.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: this society for cutting up men.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, did you watch American Horror Story where Ryan Murphy brought this into the one season of that show?
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I remember them kind of bringing this in.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of hilarious.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some people today, I mean, it's a very Ryan Murphy, right?
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's in it?
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's seven.
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the cult season, which is literally... Yeah.
• 15:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like Ryan Murphy would have produced this got manifesto easily.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you would have been there where Andy Warhol refused to do it.
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: The man killers back with her group.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, you have no right to break in here.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I wonder why we ever financed your training and development.
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact is, Sister, like you did.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And while you're like us, we're not that makes me one of you more than he is filthy man and the man yells, watch yourself girly.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't take that kind of talk from nobody, not even a woman.
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Katrina, you don't understand.
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hired Drake for protection.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a professional, a wrong sister.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a man, baby, and men are dirt.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You hear me, dirt.
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: She punches him in the jaw.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: He throws it against the wall.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: See what I mean and the narration tells us and the sisters do see.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: They see the building image of nightmare.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Would you tell us about the origin story of Katrina Luisa von Horn?
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm not going to attempt the accent because I can't top that, but I will do my best.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: So basically, we go back and we discover, we're learned that Katrina was this European
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: scheme prowess was probably all known throughout Europe and whatever so she's at this ski lodge and she's listening to these men and they're kind of doing their like typical sexist misogynistic garbage where this guy says only men can be truly competitive it's our nature you know women should remain with children yeah no woman can ever be a man a true man in athletic competition and Katrina over here is this and she doesn't take too kindly to what they're saying so she says but you care to bet on that hair lebins
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then the man says, ah, for I line Van Horne, perhaps I will accept your challenge.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: For I am, I assure you the far better steer.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: And Katrina says, wouldn't you agree?
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Her loving is that remains to be seen.
• 17:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: So they go and they, you know, they have this contest.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: It says in a contest only the devil could win.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like ego matching ego, you know, it's Katrina trying to prove to herself against this sexist man that, yes, I can't compete with you.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: And not only can I compete, I can win, but starter yells go and they start racing down the
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: on their skis, lobbying starts to cut off Katrina as their carining towards this cliff edge.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: And she says, no, you fool, you're cutting me off, you're cutting me off, you're cutting me off.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then a moment of blind nail ego in the burning attorney of disaster.
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: And in that instant, the career of Katrina Vaughan, Olympic skier, was ended for the same fall which caused Carl Levin's life.
• 17:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Cost Katrina Vaughan horned her body's beauty.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: Garring her crippling her so badly, only massive retraining could teach her to use her muscles once more.
• 18:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: A retrain supply by a wealthy milk milk tank group will also supply the power at so skeleton which has supplemented the strength of the man killer and we're looking at her and I'm like where is this scarring where is this this figurine like she's lost her beauty because of this accident that I don't know how she survived and he died but I don't see any sign of her beauty being besmirched or whatever she just looks the same as she did before the accident.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Dr. Doom.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has like one little scar, she's like, no, my beauty.
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would just watch this this year, but there's a 1950, we'll be called The Clean of Outer Space starring Josh McAbor.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, have you seen this one, these men get taken up to a planet populated by like gorgeous women and heels and dresses who are all like a size zero, I don't know.
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Josh McAbor is the most beautiful one.
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the queen of all of them has this mascot.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like really cruel to everybody.
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: When they pull her mask off, it turns out she's ugly.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, so all the women turn against her.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like Katrina is trying to prove her sportsmanship but the narration tells us that she sacrificed her beauty to prove her worth which is just a lot.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Go back to all kinds of stories.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Billie Jean King is probably the most famous one where there's like this battle of the sexes kind of mentality and how could a woman be better than a man?
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Sarah, we used to look the rest of the first appearance for us.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the one that she's crazy.
• 19:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not to say that I can.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's kind of bonkers, right?
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she attacks a power plant and she steals a generator.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: But everybody's like, you can't even use that for the reasons that you think you should use it.
• 19:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: she is like, oh well I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then Spider-Man and the cat fight her and they're very condescending the whole time.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like they're obsessed with like calling her like baby kids and we're like little gross nicknames like that, which is condescending frankly.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it will help if you were less condescending.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
• 19:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: but they end up defeating her right because they're like, oh, well, who created your suit other than men who create everything when they're just like watching her like break right like her brain breaks would because she's like,
• 20:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: but how could it be like a men did a thing?
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't, I cannot reconcile and literally it breaks her brain.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's like little bubbles like around her head and she just like staggers off and is done for the day because she just like is so depressed that like men did anything.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's so stupid.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're so weird and low level versions of massage and you hear, for example, we have a really powerful female super villain and the first thing they do is comment on what she's wearing Just looking her looks and like that goes on.
• 20:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a cross so many of her appearances.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, vitamins is one of that beautiful and she's like fifth.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've suffered this tons of mental molest time.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of just like comments on her appearance, and the word scum shows up on the page a few times.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But she's a real man killer y'all.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a really fun issue, but it's wild too.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those like, oh no, what were they doing?
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: But also I'm smiling the whole time.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's because, like, honestly, I just think that a character, like, a person, like, solonus, is so attractive to a lot of, like, cis men, right, because they're just like, oh, she's like the cartoon version of a feminist, so it's like this person who's trying to not just get in quality, but to take all of your quality away, right?
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it gets
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of turned into this nonsense version.
• 21:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the thing is is that Valerie Solonus, as well as this character actually, has kind of great reasons to be pissed off, right?
• 21:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is like the excuse so that nobody has to listen to her, nothing changes, women's rights,
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: you don't get any justice still.
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like just kind of wild because it's always like oh the fear of our like of women gaining equality.
• 21:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like I would personally be a little embarrassed to admit that I was afraid of women being equal to me.
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like I don't know these guys are just like we're gonna make a character called man killer.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if we jump away back in history, the suffragettes only develop the right devote because of kind of violent protest, right?
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the worst thing they got about this.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: We think of shows like Chicago where, you know, it's, uh, the lipshits, you know, uh,
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: the sublactango where women who commit murder are being celebrated.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an odd history here, but this character is kind of magical despite the weird misogyny lobbed her direction.
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's just not fucking having it, which is amazing in its way.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The name Katrina means pure, and the name Louisa means warrior.
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then horn is just like a Dutch thing for like of horn.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the idea that her name is implied like the pure warrior is really interesting to me.
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to slow down on a couple of her appearances, but kind of rush through the rest because a lot of the art super consequential.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: In date of 1123, she's a section leader for Hydra, which is, you know, any time I see, let's take the feminist and put her working for the Nazis.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Very, very, for all-line doctor.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: A little feminazi, right?
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, which is uncomfortable.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we see your take a job for Justin.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: hammer like alongside a bunch of villains in Iron Man 126127 but then we go to Marvel team up 107 which is the next one we have to really slow down on.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: This story is even crazier than the first one any preliminary comments on this one, Joe or Sarah do you have any?
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, it was point of mine.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's fine.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: So this is the one with Hildi Dawes, they're like the revolutionary leader who's like, we're gonna kill all the men.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, honestly, yes, like the ending where she's like, no, I have to like kill myself because I'm so evil.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like that's a very classic like trope like I think about inferno like with battle in like that's the ending of that story That's the end of dark being saga.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very like I'm gonna fridge myself because I'm such a bad person and it's just everyone's like Okay, well moving on.
• 23:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: What's out?
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: What else is going on?
• 23:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah If you are a big Peter Parker fan you might want to just skip this because he doesn't come across too good in this one
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the era where like Peter's like, oh no, Gwen Stacy thinks that Peter Parker is Spider-Man.
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Spider-Man a bit of a kidnap Gwen Stacy so that she'll think he's really off and this she'll never believe that Peter Parker might be Spider-Man.
• 24:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: He has some really rough storyline through all of this.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, before we continue, Sarah, who would play Katrina Luis Iván Horne in the 1973 film version of Man Killer?
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The 1973 version, oh my god, I don't know.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting recall well.
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean Raquel Welch would be a good one.
• 24:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm getting Candice Burgood, which would be hilarious.
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Candice Burgood would be a really good choice actually.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty smart.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it would be somebody who's like shockingly beautiful and is like I have my face is damaged.
• 24:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the movie would be of course made by men and right like at the end she'd like fall in love with the man even though she like fought the men through the whole movie Yeah, there's this adventure films like this.
• 25:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we're marble team up.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: What else have a red air ship descends from the sky and opens fire on the civilians I don't know what this is, but it sure in the love boat yells a guy the ship opens up and a bunch of like butch lesbians pour out of it And they're wearing replicas of like man killers costume
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We strive for the glory of feminine superiority.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've come to rescue Hildi dolls from your repressive clutches.
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: My women warriors, and I will demolish you and your sexist society.
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I alone could easily smash twice your number.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: No man can withstand the... Oh, I should have done this in my accent.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna redo the whole...
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Menculers at the head and she has, we strive for the glorious feminine superiority, we've come to rescue Kennedy Dars from your repressive clutches.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: My women warriors, and I would demolish you and your sexist society.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I could easily smash twice your number, no man can withstand the power, and if you're a man killer, a serotonator who he'll be Dars is.
• 25:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I guess she's kind of like the glorious dinam or something.
• 25:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is another thing where they're kind of like, oh, they're violent revolutionaries at the beginning, Peter is just like, it's talking about Hilty Duh, she made the weathermen look like they were Winpy, but it's like the weathermen never actually heard anybody.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is, it's a weird.
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: The framing of all of this is so off the rails that you're just like, what are you saying, Peter?
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to tell everybody who the weathermen are?
• 26:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the weather underground also as they are known was- This is also a real thing, not a marble thing.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this was a historical bunch of college students, basically.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're super against the war in Vietnam, which that take aged great.
• 26:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they decided that they were going to do things like they bombed a statue that was
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they killed two of their own members through an accidental bombing at one point, but they don't hurt anybody, right?
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like they're doing bombings of government buildings because they want the violence and Vietnam to end.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that is always left out of when we talk about culturally who they were, it's like they were totally bonkers, like, you know, they were like these spoiled, like rich college kids, they were white, and like they just like,
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we're out here trying to like cause problems and their anti-government and all of this, but like their whole thing was about, you know, gender equality free love, of course, because that's what everybody's saying was that that time, and then also just like they didn't want people to keep dying in Vietnam.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that was that is why most people are very dismissive of them to this day.
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we also have Abby Hoffman.
• 27:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a woman who, like, escaped the weather underground.
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was, like, in hiding for a whole bunch of years with her husband.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they had, like, a baby.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember how I'm talking about it?
• 27:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, but I remember reading an interview with her in the punk magazine.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maximum rock and roll.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know exactly who you're talking about.
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I kind of feel like that's who I feel like that's who he'll dedo's was supposed to be.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is like an era of like political revolution in America.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like crazy shits happening.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Go look up like the Chicago 7.
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's some crazy crazy stories.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Abby and the Black Panther Party, my word.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot happening.
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Abby Hoffman is also referenced in this issue.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Abby Hoffman was a social activist with the Youth International Party, who's like, has a pretty famous American story.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can look it up, but there's a lot of people being arrested, a lot of people on their run.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Patty Hearst era.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a lot of crazy things happening.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Political arrest.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right after a man's son.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, Madsen was right here as well.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, so Hildi Dawes is a fictional character.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's a leftist underground revolutionary leader.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's been in hiding for years and she's unlike the FBI's like top 10 most wanted list.
• 28:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But now she's turning herself in, Peter Parker.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things first Abby Hoffman surrenders and now Hildi Dawes.
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Peter also thinks, I remember reading about Dawes' anti-war anti-government activities back in high school.
• 28:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: She made the weathermen look wimpy.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, oh, oh, the woman, okay, so there was this woman who ran away for a long time, a name Bernadine Dorn.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have it in my notes, I was trying to think of her day.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernadine, if you look her up, Dorn is Dior and he was like on the run for a long time, and like was known for like violent demonstration.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think this character's based on that.
• 29:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Mancular Wants Hildedaws, and Spider-Man attacks and says, an occasional bath and new mouthwash might do wonders for your social life to his female counterpart, which is always rough.
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: She calls him an annoying insect, an overconfident cloud, an ignorant showvenist, a masked mystery and a careless bumbling cloud.
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: She ran out of words, so she had to use cloud twice.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: She says, I should apologize to you, as I once, as I share one day to strive, this entire male-dominated culture.
• 29:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she has a kidnapping, does, and then wants to use her to further her own desire for destruction.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: She says, you and your leftist rebels wanted to change society, to enlighten it, enlightened it.
• 29:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to obliterate the male dominated system.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she occurs here, which is a wild choice already.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she attacks all the women, and they're a lifting weights, and they have energy blasters, and spidey fights, she hawk, and it's so weird.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so belittling, tortur.
• 30:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, we should go on a date.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look how beautiful you are, and he has a singing the Mickey Mouse theme song to her during the battle.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll pause here as Spidey, should you help comments if you guys looked at the Spidey scene?
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think she should have squashed him like the bug that he is.
• 30:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Because this whole, my basically my whole reaction to this comic is like when Katrina calls him an ignorant show of innocent.
• 30:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, yeah, he is.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: And like there's like the later appearance that we're going to talk about where he's like just his bad.
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like it's so hard to reconcile the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man with like a he's the sexist asshole.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: One of the things I've noticed throughout all of Katrina's appearances is that people are very like Sarah mentioned like very very kind of sending to her not just about her like ideology, but also about her appearance and it's like is that the only thing you can think of to come back this rhetoric that you don't agree with is like, oh, let's make fun of her appearance, you know, let's call her names like let's insult her and stuff.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know there's a part in this where Jen is like, well,
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: I would join you, but you're rhetoric for us.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like she's taking the side of like, I'm the good feminist because I like men and I'm gonna side with the men and that's like maybe you should join up with Katrina because I'd be a fun team up.
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can kind of see it actually, although Katrina, you know, she's committing murder.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of understand, but also, you know, I kind of get it.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Manila's big plan, and she does it, she takes the truck and blows up the New York civics and racket club.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not quite sure why that's so important, except maybe it's just an old boy's club.
• 31:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But she gets to throw some funch punches that she holl, because she says, you are traitor to your sex, a betrayer of all women kinds.
• 31:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You should join me in my crusading against the male oppressors.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: She also says that her big goal is to tear down society and make, quote, a paradise where women rule.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And men are helpless slaves who are they are every whim.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, I'm kind of on board with the first part, but like the slaves thing, maybe not so much.
• 31:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she'll go, I'll just stick with the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment, which is like the most countries in the world have adopted that like ensure Equal Rights, but fucking the United States haven't, hasn't, in say.
• 32:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: there's a there's a famous story in Utah like in the 90s where there was a bunch of feminist Mormon women trying to fight for like equality in Mormonism and they were all like similarly like excommunicated from the church and like like delivered a very clear message like women know your place there's like weird pockets of this history everywhere okay so Spider-Man keeps singing during the fight which is somehow so condescending
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and the key moment where she hulk is running with like a full truck suspended over her head.
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to save hundreds of lives.
• 32:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Spider-Man says this.
• 32:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, to a woman lifting a truck.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you say, gorgeous.
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know better than to argue with a big green lady.
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So her plot is ruined.
• 32:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mancular tries getting to safety, but does grab some wires and says.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You and I are an acronyms.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our way of life, our revolution has long since passed.
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: If indeed it ever existed at all, I'm going to end this madness once and for all.
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Never again, will you or I menace an innocent life?
• 33:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then she seemingly electrocutes both she and men killer to death.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: The two feminists had to die at the end.
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: The writers on this book, by the way, are Tom Defelco and Jim Schuter.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the title of this book is The Roomer of Revolution, The Roomer of Revolution.
• 33:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Sarah, take it from here.
• 33:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's it, right?
• 33:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on in, Wast, the revolution's fine.
• 33:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very evocative of this exact character and how she tends to appear, you know, this character and the many versions of the straw feminist that appear in Marvel Comics, but not just Marvel Comics.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of comics all over the place, plus exploitation films.
• 33:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very popular character.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, Spider-Man is terrible in this.
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't use, I would say, like, outright slurs
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Man killer I guess, but this is the thing is like people keep she keeps making it very clear that she doesn't want to play around like that She's not trying to flirt with you and she doesn't really want to be touched in a way that like they're fighting with each other So they're gonna contact right, but that's different like you wouldn't be like so handsy and kind of like it keeps going and kind of escalating
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of as time goes on until we get to the odds, which are just like a terrible time for women and comics for the most part.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have that to look forward to, but what are your thoughts on the two women dying at the end?
• 34:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: The revolutionary feminist who realized she was wrong.
• 34:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to turn herself in like destroying the leader of the like destructive feminist movement.
• 34:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's just like once again, there will be no justice for women, right?
• 34:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no point in this story where either of them gets to either do the right thing or live their own lives or like have a redemption arc like most male characters would.
• 34:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, even if they had been violently misogynistic in the past, that's something that's happened in comics many times.
• 34:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just as idea of like, well, they have to like kill each other
• 35:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like during that time, of course, there was violence.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to say there wasn't, but the conversation is usually like, well, police violence was really extreme as kind of the same as it is now, where like the conversation always gets flipped on the person who has the most to lose and the person who's kind of defending themselves.
• 35:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this idea that, you know, she's so violent and so she has to like come back and she's like, but
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, my beliefs were fine, but like, you know, I shouldn't have gotten violent.
• 35:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't have hurt people and once again, yeah, we're not talking about groups that were out here hurting people as much as, you know, as one would think.
• 35:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, this whole, the framework is bonkers.
• 35:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's great that they killed each other.
• 35:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, mankiller will be back, but does won't.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I do think that that's interesting too, kind of, because it's like, there's no room in our hearts for that character to have a redemption arc, right?
• 36:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But mankiller can come back because we are like in love with the idea of this like mankilling feminist.
• 36:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it also seems to deliver the two messages.
• 36:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, both of these women were evil for wanting to like go against society.
• 36:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they both deserve to die.
• 36:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: number two also this odd message that like women can't possibly work together.
• 36:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like one of them has to kidnap the other who has to kill the first.
• 36:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the idea that they have the same cause but like there's no way that they could possibly succeed.
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really odd commentary with a lot of subtle, you know, context, Spider-Man's the one that walks away and you're left like,
• 36:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Spider-Man made fun of those ladies.
• 36:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: One was ugly and one was ugly.
• 36:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's funny.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's really, it's really a rough read.
• 36:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But kind of, again, it's kind of magical in an odd way with all these years later.
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, do you have comments on this crazy story?
• 36:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I think the reason why man killer isn't allowed to live in doors is
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: has to die is because man killer ultimately doesn't want to destroy society in the way that does does.
• 36:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: She's just kind of like a punching bag for like this, you know, anti-feminists like message of like we got to beat down the idea that you know this ultra like feminazi ideology is so stupid and so ridiculous like when they talk about how like oh like our movement is like over and it never really existed to begin with it's
• 37:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's this like classic knowledge meant that women will never achieve the equality or the respect in society that they deserve.
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, like because it's written by a man, like the character that we relate to and sympathize with is Spider-Man of all people, even though this story really is about Dawas.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really about She-Holk.
• 37:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really about Katrina, like the three women that this story is about, like none of them are really elevated to like,
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: central character status.
• 37:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like we're following the exploits of Spider-Man and we're like, yes, Spider-Man's the good guy in this scenario.
• 37:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: But is he really?
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And here's a quick aside.
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I say it to this for this point in the commentary.
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me see how you both feel.
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the 80s at Marvel, we get the unlimited class wrestling foundation, which is a group of super strong male wrestlers, sort of like the WWF.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the
• 38:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: saw bones and lumberjack and bludgeon.
• 38:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: When we jump over to the female version of this, they're all super strong wrestlers and they're called the grapplers.
• 38:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah, can I just being the resident woman in the room?
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope it's okay that I keep calling on you.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I just get your real quick take on some of these code names from the grapplers in comparison to the boys?
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, their leader is anti-freeze.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, that's a good one.
• 38:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even vibes of like the frigid woman, but also it sounds like antifreeze.
• 38:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a battle axe and a gladiatrix and butterball.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's not gladiator, right?
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has to be gladiatrix or whatever thing always happens whenever it's like a woman.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to add like all of these letters to the word.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That also comments on size, right?
• 38:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Butterball, Hound cakes.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Pound cakes?
• 38:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who I love?
• 38:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I love Pound cakes.
• 39:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it is totally condescending.
• 39:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's another thing where it's like, they would not have chosen these names for themselves.
• 39:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is like at best like a manager did this.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also have McGillah, who's a hairy woman, it's just a wildly different commentary on the same thing.
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they're gross, kind of, or something, and it's like, no, the grapplers are cool.
• 39:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're great.
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're really fun, especially in the dazzler comic.
• 39:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're great, and the dazzler comic.
• 39:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody go watch glow on Netflix if you want more on on the Grappler mentality.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we don't see Katrina for a super long time.
• 39:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not until like the mid 90s when Thunderbolts is a thing.
• 39:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Thunderbolts is where the masters of evil during the time when all the heroes are missing.
• 39:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Pose as a group of superheroes.
• 39:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out to be some of the most like obscure characters at the time.
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: But also they're amazing.
• 39:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Screaming Mimi is songbird and beetle is Mach 1.
• 39:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll talk more about Power Man as Atlas and just admit it.
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, do you want to tell us about men killers presence in the early Thunderbolts as she joins a new Masters of Evil?
• 40:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, so we see Katrina again in Thunderbolts 3.
• 40:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, the Thunderbolts AK Masters of Evil are hanging out and they get this report that Black Widow is fighting the Masters of Evil.
• 40:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: And like, wait a minute, I thought we were the Masters of Evil.
• 40:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: So they go and see what is up.
• 40:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's a new group under the leadership of this character called Crimson Cowell, who I really love.
• 40:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is my first time ever reading Thunderbolts, and I have to say, I read the whole run, the Curp Music Grant and the Fabian New Season are run to prepare for this.
• 40:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was so good, like just so good.
• 40:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got to interview you.
• 40:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got to interview you and you see it's about his Thunderbolts Front.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Go listen to it.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's great.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the current poll is a reference to an early Avengers story.
• 40:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're all trying brainwashings Edwin Jarvis and makes him dress as the crimson cowl as a supervillain.
• 40:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: But now it's the daughter of Justin Hammer whose name is cleverly Justin Hammer.
• 40:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, leading a new like for profit criminal organization.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, please proceed.
• 40:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so the new master's evil, it's a tiger shark claw flying tiger cyclone and Katrina and she gets a new costume and it's kind of like similar issue to the one from the earlier appearances.
• 41:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: I noticed that she usually keeps the same color scheme, you know, red and yellow, which is probably like a branding thing.
• 41:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: So she's kind of like the inverse a little bit of moonstone because they have like a similar, like color palette is a different hair color.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like new like much haircut though and like feminist sign is no longer hanging over Jennifer Jenitals, which is a good thing.
• 41:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but her tits are out.
• 41:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like not super out.
• 41:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're like out now.
• 41:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like these are my assets.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: She's she actually kind of gets to be like a character in this book like she's a powerhouse in the team Like is she still using the exoskeleton now because I know I won't find there like she's a super strange Yeah, it seems at some point she just got an upgrade.
• 41:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know maybe she went to the powerbroker But she's not using the exoskeleton anymore.
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so
• 42:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't imagine she's enjoying this team very much.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tiger sharks a lot, but I can kind of see them being buddies.
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you listen to like a fucking claw, like no way.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like the, you know, cyclones like fucking flirting with her all the time, like all the time.
• 42:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: And she's probably like, I'm not interested, but it's like this is like an era of comics where she's not really able to be like, I'm gay the way that North Star was.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, anyway.
• 42:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Not yet, but soon.
• 42:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: So we see her again in issue 18.
• 42:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: So Crimson Cowell tries to recruit the thunderbolt.
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: They've been exposed as the masters.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: We've got this point since it's like a turning point in the comics.
• 42:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: For it's like, no, we have to prove to everybody that we're actually, we actually want to be super heroes.
• 42:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're not just doing it for the, like, helmet Zemos, like, like, ploy, like we're actually kind of, like, maybe we like being heroes and stuff.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty much every time like Katrina pops up in this run, it's like she's working with the masters of evil typically so it's usually she pops up a fight fight fight fight and then she leaves or runs away or whatever and then she's back and there's more fighting and don't want to fight your song, but I have no one with them and just with men.
• 43:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I like one of the earlier comics because it was like her on an all female team and that's something that I think would be really cool.
• 43:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like get her a team with like, I don't know, maybe like neck rarer somebody just like a bunch of people who really really hate man or just hate society and people in general just a bunch of anti social villains.
• 43:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that would be fun for her.
• 43:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then in issue 23, so we get this like huge gigantic like roster of villains.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think I put it in my notes.
• 43:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so at the end, this is this is like early internet era, which would be feeding nowadays, but at the end of Thunderbolts 24, they have this double page spread where it like is like them the roster of the masters of people is now 25 members label any of them and there was like a contest curbucic ran like how many people can you name and can you name all of their first appearances.
• 43:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a bunch of like super obscure ones, supercharger and load stone and like all of you are like, where did these characters come from?
• 44:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was a reader at the time and I remember like going back to buy all of these back issues.
• 44:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And later I've shared this on the show.
• 44:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I used to write like survivor fan fiction about Marvel characters, which is what got me attention in the handbooks at the time, which is crazy.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I did two seasons of survivors masters of evil.
• 44:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I like you so many of these characters in my plot line and my early college years, I love this team.
• 44:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Katrina was, I wrote her in one of the seasons, but she didn't last very long.
• 44:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's a shame.
• 44:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: She lost, she lost a princess Python, which is just a travesty.
• 44:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But she would love to lose.
• 44:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: She would love to lose against Princess Python.
• 44:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, she would.
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so in issue 23, this is after I believe Hawkeye is now the acting leader of the Thunderbolts.
• 44:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, there they have this plot where they're trying to blackmail in the world by manipulating weather systems.
• 44:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, I don't know if this is a great supervillain plan, but it's definitely a plot of a book.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then they infiltrate this Colorado mountain base and mankiller is like, I'm gonna ditch and cyclone is like, wait, where are you going?
• 45:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then eventually he's like, I'll go with you.
• 45:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this sucks.
• 45:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: We should get out of here.
• 45:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're around the losing team.
• 45:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: which is just kind of funny because I just I think Katrina is a character who never flies as to her full potential and it's just kind of sad how many times she gets her ass kicked by people that she's probably stronger than it's just like she doesn't have like whatever training she got from Hydra or whatever it wasn't very good apparent.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like calm down a little bit.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: She's like you want to go to a bar and like I know this gay bar that we can go to and have fun Well the next time we see her she's a bartender.
• 45:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to?
• 45:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Thunderbolts 27 too.
• 45:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she's back as a Wilma, which is a big
• 45:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is when she's like slowly starting to come out of the closet.
• 45:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think she has her hair cut.
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like I always like imagine like when I was reading those issues that this is like a gay bar that she works at or like it's a bar that's like has a drag show on a Thursday night or something like that.
• 45:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: And she's like, no, I just don't slope, which I can understand at least comes to this bar.
• 46:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, oh, she looks familiar.
• 46:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: But who is this Wilma and chick?
• 46:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
• 46:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: But like they kind of do this thing back and forth where like he knows that it's her.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: she doesn't know it's him but then she discovers it's him and then he tries to like get her to be like a good person and she's basically like no I'm bad I'm not going to be good but I don't know it's way funnier than that so look yeah let's slow this down just to say yeah so he keeps visiting the bar and he's like maybe she'll be my friend or my girlfriend oh yeah happiness is Eric Jost and Eric is a decent human being when he's not being driven mad by like ionic power he has the same powers as a wonderman basically
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's just a guy, right?
• 46:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got a brother in a sister and he's like a soldier for high or he just wants someone to tell him what to do.
• 46:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that he's like hitting on this lesbian bartender for the bar, he's like not noticing all the buttons that she has like pinned to her suspenders and like he's thinking like if she is man killer, a direct quote, well, she doesn't act like she hates guys.
• 47:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, she reminds me of the guy in my old barracks.
• 47:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good guys, just kick back with, no big deal, just good company.
• 47:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which is clearly a sign that this woman is interested in you, Eric.
• 47:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that she reminds you of one of the guys.
• 47:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's like, um, her masculine energy reminds me of my good chums back in the barracks.
• 47:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then Newcy Asit takes over and the queerness unfolds.
• 47:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, do you want to start us with Thunderbolt 34?
• 47:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us what happens next.
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that it just kind of starts to, you know, Newcy Asit's dropping little appearances from Man Killer and Atlas.
• 47:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, as you mentioned, they're kind of figuring out who the other one is.
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: takes him much longer than it takes her.
• 47:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: She figures it out pretty much right away.
• 47:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much happening in this run.
• 47:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like Joel is assassinated kind of and basically it just kind of keeps going with like, oh no, she might become man killer again because she still has her outfit.
• 47:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like there's just all of these little drops in hand, like Nisiase, of course, is the master plotter.
• 48:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it goes on for issues and issues.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It goes on for like eight issues.
• 48:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: where she's just popping up in the background and being like, hey, dude, you want to be or whatever, and he's just being a sad guy.
• 48:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so he does want to be her.
• 48:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But finally, we get to 42, speaking of lesbian, Simon Williams isn't this.
• 48:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I always view him as a male lesbian.
• 48:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my own personal head, Canon.
• 48:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Simone Williams.
• 48:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's such like the guy, but this is, it's like, as a lesbian, I know this guy, right?
• 48:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you see the dude, he's sitting at your bar.
• 48:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, convinced that you could be the answer to all of his moping and you're a lesbian, so you're not at all.
• 48:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: she has that face the whole time.
• 48:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's just like done.
• 48:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's drying glasses and he is moping about the woman who I loved.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's odd I loved.
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe I still love him.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're just like, do you know how often people just walk up to the lesbian and just start saying things about their relationships?
• 49:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It happens all of the time and this guy is doing it in an anarchist thinking, Eric's thinking about the character Dallas Reordon who becomes a superhero
• 49:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think her name is Vantage when she joins the team.
• 49:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Not super consequential, but yeah, they're just for context.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much context though.
• 49:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's like this, it goes from the first run to this run.
• 49:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is just like packed full of so much Marvel stuff that's happening.
• 49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as you mentioned, I'm so glad that you actually read the Thunderbolts.
• 49:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like reading this whenever it was first coming out, and it is really fun always to look back.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Simon William shows up, and as usual, when he shows up, what does he do other than cause a complete disaster?
• 49:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he just starts like breaking things.
• 49:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why is he doing this, PS?
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Does he just do this?
• 49:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he's he's going after Atlas.
• 49:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: He thinks Atlas is like a criminal on the run.
• 49:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he's like, I think property to try to you know, catch this guy.
• 49:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then that makes the part we have to solve on for a moment.
• 49:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wilma, Wilma quote unquote, Katrina has like a shorter hair cut here.
• 50:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's like like white shirt with like suspenders look.
• 50:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you zoom in, the suspenders have buttons on them.
• 50:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You were just talking about this in a minute ago.
• 50:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her buttons say like indigo girls with a girl.
• 50:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and another one that says got zeta with a zeta with a zeta because otherwise copyright Right, so like clear let's be in some text here.
• 50:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, she's she's game my friend and it definitely is so clear
• 50:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: here because I think for a minute early on you were like oh no are they going to try to like hook these two up like that's what would usually happen in a story right is like the person who's kind of a lesbian is hooked up with whatever sad-sac dude then she runs into what the boss
• 50:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that is not what happens here, so there's a lot of story, mostly Wonderman is just breaking things, just because he's on one, this is whenever he's in his like glowy energy form, but even on the best of day assignment, you're a wreck.
• 51:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, Atlas, she says, oh, I know who you are, just go like beat this guy's ass now, and so Atlas does, and they have
• 51:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just have his hero moment here.
• 51:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, I could try the super criminal to join my team.
• 51:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a very like, what are you gonna do?
• 51:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she looks so pissed that he even asked frankly.
• 51:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he goes, he goes, now's the time to make a choice.
• 51:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Help me turn your life around the way, the way me and the Thunderbolts have tried to do.
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are you gonna do, Wilma?
• 51:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's not gonna do it.
• 51:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: You brought me to be part of your ridiculous charade.
• 51:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I could even be your girlfriend, Eric.
• 51:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, not about me.
• 51:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: My role as friendly bartender, my American accent.
• 51:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was all a part of laying low.
• 51:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: You used to know such things.
• 51:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: My name is not even Wilma.
• 51:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's cutin' at least at that important.
• 51:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, but I thought you might...
• 51:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: want to redeem myself Eric that I admired what you are doing that we might become romantically involved.
• 51:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You abject fool, look at me, I call myself man killer.
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you think I really feel about you?
• 52:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So long Eric, hope you survive, please fucking run the way.
• 52:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I'm gay and off the fucking clock now.
• 52:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gone.
• 52:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am gone.
• 52:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I call myself a man killer.
• 52:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're more on.
• 52:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got Lily's hair.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bugs, rakes.
• 52:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, did you not notice the, yeah, this is how I feel.
• 52:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be like wearing like a Virginia wolf t-shirt or something.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And somebody is just like, what's up?
• 52:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm all like, I feel like this is a clear tell, but it's fine.
• 52:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's terrible.
• 52:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've never met them though.
• 52:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lipside for me when I was married to my wife.
• 52:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would get things like all the time like I wish my husband would plan a dinner party Like Chad's just not like the other guys.
• 52:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's he spoils you rotten on your birthday like oh, why is it my husband like that?
• 52:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got it so like this all the time.
• 52:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a Great husband who doesn't really want to be with you in a high school.
• 52:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're like Chad.
• 52:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're in the show choir You're so sensitive.
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: We should go out
• 52:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
• 53:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
• 53:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's definitely like a flip lesbian version of that for sure, where you're just like, oh, this sad dude.
• 53:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then he brings her back a little later in the run as he's wrapping up.
• 53:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
• 53:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the masters of evil with the crimson cow.
• 53:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to talk about that, sir?
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what else happens?
• 53:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so they come back there with the new masters of evil yet again, right?
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a man killer, a hydro man.
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Cyclones here again.
• 53:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Black Mamba of course who always looks great.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um you see Mamba they're skiing who is another character.
• 53:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe we haven't talked about yet.
• 53:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I fucking love civil devourack.
• 53:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love her.
• 53:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's so good in the early spider woman speaking of gay.
• 53:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like the that issue is very homosexual, but I have a long lipstick character that I love.
• 53:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: such as plant man.
• 53:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've done plant men already.
• 53:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Did you?
• 53:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember that.
• 53:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
• 53:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
• 53:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she changes her name to Amazon briefly.
• 53:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, basically they have adventures.
• 53:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.
• 54:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: She fights.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: They know once.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on her clothes?
• 54:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm switching to Amazon.
• 54:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what are you all doing?
• 54:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's just it.
• 54:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they view it as the same thing, right?
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like another word for a woman that you have.
• 54:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just silly because it's like, oh, okay, well, we're not being quite as condescending.
• 54:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll call her Amazon now.
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're just like, they probably got sick of it, right?
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're like, do you really have to have this character named man killer?
• 54:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, well, now we'll call her Amazon.
• 54:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that's not really better.
• 54:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you just like, let her be Katrina or something?
• 54:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad Joe that you got to read Thunderbolts front to back.
• 54:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's such a journey, it's great.
• 54:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's deep in Marvel continuity.
• 54:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so character driven.
• 54:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who are your favorite characters?
• 54:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I did mention Moonstone earlier.
• 54:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: She was definitely the standoff for me.
• 54:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: I liked it.
• 54:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Songbird thought she was gray.
• 54:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought this one was very interesting for me because I haven't really read a whole lot of late 90s Marvel stuff So like I had no idea for example that Thunderbolts came out of on slot of all things and that's like something that is like in the deep dark corner of Marvel and X-Men can and then I'm like I'm just gonna pretend that that didn't exist.
• 55:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not gonna read that, but then I'm like great
• 55:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Should I go back through and read the onslaught thing to figure out how this all connects and like a lot of the master's people character are like People that I'm not familiar with because they're like mostly like Avengers characters and I haven't read a lot of that Avengers stuff, but I found like with this is like you kind of don't really need to because it's like that you said these are obscure characters that
• 55:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: kind of get elevated to like a higher status, like a premier status.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I did read Moonstone before in the incredible halt issues that she appeared in, and those were fine as well, but I really loved how she was used in this book as well.
• 55:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: See the trial of Moonstone last summer on my show.
• 55:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no trials.
• 55:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah's with me on that.
• 55:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a great time.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a that's a super fun one.
• 55:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, then we have Thunderbolts got like rebranded for like a half a dozen issues as like a weird fight club kind of story written by John our cutie with like pencils by Francisco Vosco I was buying the books at this time.
• 56:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were doing this with a bunch of titles.
• 56:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: They just switched a bunch of shit up.
• 56:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 56:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were kind of see what would I don't know stick to the wall It's a it's kind of a rough this read it was it was uncomfortable rereading this after all these years
• 56:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a it's kind of cheesecakey and the only real character to appear from the original Thunderbolt series is man killer, which is crazy because there's a bunch of stuff going on with these like really awful people, but here she's in a red and black suit.
• 56:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's fighting spider man.
• 56:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's robbing a jewelry store.
• 56:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: She gets to say keep chattering a little blight try to disguise your insecurity.
• 56:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Try some master impotence, you don't fool me.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Spider-Man keeps calling her things like honey pie, and he's humiliating her while there's the battle of the crowds laughing.
• 56:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: He webs her hands and feet to a pole.
• 56:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: He hangs her upside down, and then he swings away after kissing Rona Cheek.
• 56:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what fuck you, man?
• 56:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's just nuts.
• 56:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Not necessary, so the police put her in a shock collar, but they leave her armor on so she's back in her armor here and this time she says she needs it to live I don't know she also doesn't want to use the name man killer anymore apparently she gets bailed out by some fight folks who want her to like be in a super powered like fight ring and One guy calls her a diek on panel another guy calls her honey.
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: She focuses her rage in fights by picturing spider-man later she tries recruiting
• 57:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Axum, who's like a boxer in this series into a new criminal gang, which consists of Scorpion and Delilah.
• 57:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she and Delilah get to hold hands on paddle.
• 57:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: As Sarah, is Delilah a character you're familiar with?
• 57:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't really know.
• 57:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, good for them.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure where she was like an amazing Spider-Man character.
• 57:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
• 57:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she was like a bit villain in Spider-Man.
• 57:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's just like a super tough, super strong chick with like her boobs out basically.
• 57:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're like holding hands and Katrina wants to form a new team and they're all talking about how like how awful Spider-Man is.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she offers the theory that this guy is sadist.
• 57:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's sick of her to the loved, frustrated, ugly little man in the real world, he's in nothing.
• 58:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: a nobody invisible to women see.
• 58:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he puts on that ridiculous costume to hide his face and acts out or his power fantasies by a non-on a misleave, inflicting pain on others, author and over and over.
• 58:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she pictures like the imageships to Spider-Man, like in front of a like a walfa love like playboy center folds and you just know he's ready to masturbate.
• 58:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's just actually pictures him.
• 58:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not that far from the truth.
• 58:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Katrina turns to Delilah and says make sense, doesn't it?
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Delilah goes for a first year site class, yeah, I guess.
• 58:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then she turns and offers all her attention into Scorpion instead.
• 58:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of wonder if this was like a ruffle?
• 58:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like, they're like, I don't know.
• 58:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like Aubrey Plaza in Parks and Rec is like, has a boyfriend who also has a boyfriend?
• 58:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: annoyed with Katrina in terms of Scorpion and so it's like break up.
• 58:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So later Katrina's genuinely surprised, the lawyer gets their cases dismissed.
• 58:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: She decides not to go after Spider-Man at which results in Scorpion and Delilah getting captured and she walks away at the end.
• 59:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, do you have thoughts on this run in Thunderbolt?
• 59:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of an odd one.
• 59:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: These two particular stories were like probably the hardest to read like the it's the roughest stuff.
• 59:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like I was kind of shocked that they actually said Dijk on panel.
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like I know this is like host comments coming up story to maybe they're like we can do this just because we can't but it's like should you though?
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it is not really good.
• 59:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it'd be one thing if she said like I'm a diet so why like that would be really empowering for her but when it's like it's obviously got misogynistic other tones to it and like I when I opened the cover I was like oh yeah cheesecake I was like and in the art the rest of the you know issue is just not very good either so it's hard to find something good to say about this these two issues to be honest.
• 59:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit stereotypical, I have permission to share this on my show.
• 59:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: My little sister's lesbian, and in her first three relationships, this is very binary thinking, but it's early 2000s.
• 59:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember her saying to me once, like, think gender's a little fluid.
• 59:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, with my first girlfriend, I was like super dikey.
• 1:00:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was the boy.
• 1:00:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: With my second girlfriend, I was like super femme.
• 1:00:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was the lipstick girl.
• 1:00:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in my third relationship, she was awful.
• 1:00:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I was the human.
• 1:00:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that.
• 1:00:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: that she carried her first three, but there is kind of a, there is kind of this like paradigm of like the butch lesbian with the lipstick lesbian and mancular and delilah you're about by a little bit asserted.
• 1:00:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have thoughts on this pairing.
• 1:00:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty cute.
• 1:00:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was like, okay, I mean, you seem like you have a nice like little argument to buy a boat with you yourself.
• 1:00:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's cute.
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay.
• 1:00:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll summarize them really quickly.
• 1:00:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's back in the masters of evil in the new Thunderbolts run a for quote, a paycheck and a payback Baren Zemos involved.
• 1:00:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is where he gets like the double moon stones and all the universal well spring shit Mancular at one point gets to grow to giant size with pin particles and like pulverize Atlas into the ground.
• 1:00:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's fun
• 1:00:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: but then he grows like a hundred times bigger into her and like stops her into the pavement.
• 1:00:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of fun that they got to fight one more time.
• 1:00:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's in the Avengers the initiative where they do the 50 states and during dark range she's like at camp Hammond and everybody's powers get like amped up by norn stones and she gets to fight rage and ultra girl, which is a wild combination.
• 1:01:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: to characters.
• 1:01:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to say.
• 1:01:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the chance we're only X-Men appearance ever in amazing X-Men number 16 and 17.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's getting drunk in Colorado when she feels the call of Citerac.
• 1:01:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is where all the supervillains rush to the island and they are trying to get to the Citerac gem or like the crimson gem to become the new juggernaut and it like the living pharaoh gets it but then juggernaut takes it back.
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: She gets called a freelance supervillain comma agent of hydra here, and she also gets to punch north star and call him little man and also grab night crawler by the neck, but then Kane Marco knocks her through the wall, the end, uh, I'll hear your thoughts on that one at a second, and then kind of her last time appears
• 1:01:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: is in Thunderbolts volume 3, number 10 and 12, where she's under the masters of evil and Baron Zimo again, she gets a blonde mohawk, she gets to fight Atlas one more time.
• 1:02:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: They go after Cobic, this is the little girl cosmic cube in a real form, and the winter soldier, like kicks her in the face, then she gets sucked up at a cosmic hole, and we've never seen her again.
• 1:02:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let me hear your thoughts on Wilma or Wilma goodness on Katrina in the X-Men pairing and then Sarah I'd love to hear your thoughts about what Katrina's doing in that cosmic hole.
• 1:02:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I mean her fighting north star and night crawler and all that is fine.
• 1:02:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of wish that like we saw her maybe fight Colossus because like they're both kind of like big strong tough people like so that could be like a fun little match up or I mean I think there's a part where like
• 1:02:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: She confronts Kane and she's kind of like Kane.
• 1:02:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't look the same and I'm like have they met like that was the thing that kind of struck me as odd because like we've gone through all these appearances and Kane Mark was not popped up in any so she just aware of him from like TV or like like I saw you in television You don't look that way.
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you were much bigger or something or like maybe they saw each other at a dazzar concert or at a gay bar or something like that's my head can that they went to see dazzar together
• 1:03:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It came being the repressed homosexual and she also like punches north star who's also the homosexual Yeah, she just like being up other like men and gays and I think that's fun for her Sarah.
• 1:03:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I like that she is a blonde Mohawk eventually.
• 1:03:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's really nice
• 1:03:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: But this is all stuff where you're just like, they just don't know what to do with this character.
• 1:03:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is just like a fill-in character.
• 1:03:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the person who loved her the most was Baby and NECAza.
• 1:03:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's kind of like no better time than that story where she's like, you sad sack.
• 1:03:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, bye.
• 1:03:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a character that I cannot believe Mark Greenwald overlooked when he told the superior like female battles battle like yacht story when I can't believe she's not there.
• 1:03:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to be.
• 1:03:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm moving to that island and I think the man killer would too.
• 1:03:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are our resident thoughts?
• 1:04:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the really interesting things is just like as queer history and history of feminism has shifted.
• 1:04:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, God, we're in 2025 America.
• 1:04:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're things are like fucking worse than ever in some ways.
• 1:04:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, in 1975, fighting the establishment was the worst thing possible.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now that we're in 2025, how do we view this character?
• 1:04:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, you kind of referenced this earlier, like, can she do wrong?
• 1:04:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are we upset if she tries to kill all the men, even though I am one of them?
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no.
• 1:04:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is one of those things where like we we've kind of looked back at characters like my needle and we're like, you know, maybe you don't have a point or like mystique mystique is one of my favorite characters and she's definitely evil like she does some pretty evil nasty stuff, but I'm like I stand I don't care what you do be a murderer like don't you don't need to be redeemed.
• 1:04:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think Katrina is somebody like maybe they should lean a little bit more into it.
• 1:04:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think
• 1:04:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, like the man killer co-named that's like very problematic, but at the same time no other name kind of works is like when she can run around saying I'm the Amazon or is she just going to be Katrina like you know I don't know if that would sell as well or if it would work for her so she might just be stuck with that co-name for forever and I think that could ultimately be the downfall of the character because like it's kind of dated like that idea of like oh she's a man killer and it's like we actually do not see her kill anybody and
• 1:05:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like maybe that, I don't know, is a mistake.
• 1:05:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like I said before, I think that if she was to join, like, an all female supervillain team or as a leader, potentially, like, I would love to see this character just have like a bigger role in the comics.
• 1:05:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: My favorite appearance of hers is when she's, like, telling off Eric.
• 1:05:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, you really thought that you and I were going to be a couple.
• 1:05:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's her best moment her and it's she never really rises to that ever again And it's like I also it's upsetting to me because so many of her appearances She's just like a henchwoman.
• 1:05:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: She's like a villain for higher She just like takes all these gigs and it's like she's usually working for a man And it never really made sense to me because it's like if you hate men Why are you always working for men?
• 1:05:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like it'd be great if maybe she was like undermining them somehow Where it's like Zemo is like
• 1:06:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: My evil plan is finally come to fruition and then it's like, oh no, because Katrina likes still all your shit or whatever and left with I don't know her girlfriend or whatever, like that would be great.
• 1:06:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love how you see as it kind of worked in subtle character stuff for her right Like she's working in a ski bar and she's watching the skiing and she's like thinking about like the expert craft of skiing and how she knows what she's doing because she's left like that's her always through
• 1:06:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
• 1:06:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what story I want to see?
• 1:06:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then let me love this to Sarah.
• 1:06:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to see Leo Williams writing like an all super villain team of girls with like this character and moonstone and then whoever else.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But like watching them like it's a feminist commentary, we get deep vibes into the history, but we also just get like here's these really problematic women trying to work together and it's hilarious in its own way.
• 1:06:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it has to be written by exactly the right person.
• 1:06:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: That version of Katrina, I think, could be amazing.
• 1:06:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, what are your thoughts on Katrina?
• 1:06:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, she's a really interesting character, right?
• 1:07:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same thing.
• 1:07:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: You couldn't really bring her back as a character named Mankiller as much these days, most likely.
• 1:07:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what you could do is have her own her own bar or you could have her be taking on jobs and not, like, as time goes on, giving less of a fuck about it than she did, even the last time we saw her.
• 1:07:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: where she was like, this is over.
• 1:07:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm leaving.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to get my ass kicked by spider man 90 times in a row or whatever.
• 1:07:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she's done and I like the idea of her just gradually carrying less, but still taking on jobs and being like sure, I guess I'll go get like roughed up by Daredevil for 5,000, you know, fine.
• 1:07:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thinking of Marvel characters who are lesbian, I'm just gonna toss a few of your way.
• 1:07:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Would men kill her and karma be good together?
• 1:07:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, karma would see her point, though.
• 1:07:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Karma would be like, two shades.
• 1:07:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Would a man kill her and moon dragon be good together?
• 1:07:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, yeah.
• 1:07:59
  [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
• 1:08:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:08:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh... man killer and neco menoru i feel like man killers like a little older than neco those give us a mommy vibes i you know uh... man killer in america chavez this one weirdy i can see working yeah weirdly they just like wrestle a lot yeah that sounds fine uh... man killer in mystique i don't know mystique will killers i'm thinking
• 1:08:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Another one that oddly works for me is Mancular and Yukio, which is kind of a crazy thought.
• 1:08:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, that would probably work great.
• 1:08:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, Yukio would be down.
• 1:08:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't think of the right word to use.
• 1:08:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, the diametrics is fascinating.
• 1:08:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, do you have any thoughts on Katrina's love life?
• 1:08:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I would love to see her in a happy, thriving relationship.
• 1:08:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think she needs another, honestly, her and she all could be a great pairing because they can both kind of like throw down and throw each other across the room and stuff.
• 1:08:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's what she needs.
• 1:08:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: She needs someone who can kind of match her energy.
• 1:08:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: She learned titanium in like a buddy comedy.
• 1:08:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
• 1:09:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, maybe she can have like a female wrestling.
• 1:09:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Me, Gorge, can become like a female wrestler.
• 1:09:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like we talked about like before with the grapplers,
• 1:09:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she can be like Sarah Palson and who's with like, Oh, and what's Sarah's?
• 1:09:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Helen Taylor.
• 1:09:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that is.
• 1:09:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Helen Taylor is letter name.
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe maybe men killer can get with antifreeze.
• 1:09:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear any final resonant thoughts.
• 1:09:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: This has been fun to put together, and it's just like a fun dive into another commentary from the early 70s, which is the second way of feminism.
• 1:09:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what a fun character to celebrate in Pride Month.
• 1:09:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So any final thoughts, and then we're going to put this out on June 19 on the Patreon.
• 1:09:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to people find you both online and anything you want to plug besides the fact that we're all going to be at the uncanny experience together, which I'm so excited about.
• 1:09:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go Sarah and then Joe.
• 1:09:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so my last thoughts I guess is that in 2025 we are experiencing a historical wave of legislative and real world attacks on women and queer people and so whenever you look at this stuff and kind of go oh it's dated and it's like a little silly.
• 1:10:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: to me, unfortunately, the conversation really hasn't shifted that much, right?
• 1:10:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that this is an interesting thing to think about and an interesting thing to talk about during Pride Month.
• 1:10:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: As is the shortcoming, sometimes of second wave feminism, which would have been very gender binary about all of this stuff as well.
• 1:10:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so you can find me at SarahSensory.com because I don't know when or how I'm going to be on any platform, you know, and so just look at SarahSensory.com.
• 1:10:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's everything, aren't you?
• 1:10:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks for having me here for the main killer.
• 1:10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good to see you, my friend.
• 1:10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anytime it always, I will text Sarah like little lists.
• 1:10:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, here's a list of episodes that I want you on.
• 1:10:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah is often like, yes, I'll do all of them.
• 1:10:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: this character was fun to read.
• 1:10:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I want to root for her because I always root for anybody who's either queer or a woman, so like she checks both of those boxes, so I'm like I just want good things for her evil good things, even though that kind of cancels each other out.
• 1:11:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: But one of the things I'd love to see with this character is for her to be written by a woman because everything we read was written by men and literally and I was going to make that part of it.
• 1:11:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm just like, yeah, like I imagine how differently the history of this character would be of shoes rent by someone like Linda fight or Louis Simonson or in the centee or anybody Literally anybody there's a long list of talented women who could write this character and do really interesting things with her So that would be my challenge to Marvel, but I don't necessarily think anybody's thinking about man killer at Marvel, but I could be wrong about that We Williams hear me.
• 1:11:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm calling out.
• 1:11:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, this is the beacon for her to do that
• 1:11:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I'll be at the uncanny experience, very excited to see you both there.
• 1:11:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: You can follow me on Instagram and BlueSky at Friend of Dazzler.
• 1:11:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I write comic reviews for a IP team.
• 1:11:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: So those when they go out, I usually post those.
• 1:11:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: They're usually like on
• 1:12:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Wednesdays every week, so I'm just following me on social media and see what I'm writing about.
• 1:12:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: My current review that's posted at time of recording is on on King of Expand Number 14 by Gale Simone.
• 1:12:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love that run.
• 1:12:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love Gale.
• 1:12:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just so fun to read this book.
• 1:12:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all really.
• 1:12:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: So thank you for having me and this has been so much fun.
• 1:12:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so fun to see you both, and we've got some really fun commentary coming up on the Patreon in the next few months, so stay tuned.
• 1:12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, I'm Chad Anderson.
• 1:12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I keep my social media private because I get kiddos.
• 1:12:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The two of you are welcome to add me if you just ask, but follow the show at Grimalk and under score lane.
• 1:12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The final episode in Patreon on the Patreon this month.
• 1:12:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: is going to be the character Shinobi Shah, who is fulfilling our bisexual category.
• 1:12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't believe Alyssa Wong is coming back to join me for that conversation.
• 1:12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Alyssa has been using Shinobi in their current run on SILOCK at its so much fun.
• 1:12:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait for that conversation as well.
• 1:12:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: July on the show is Colossus Month.
• 1:12:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So watch for all Colossus-beamed characters on the Patreon and July.
• 1:13:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Over on the main show, the next episode coming out immediately after this, we'll also feature by dear friend Sarah Centrie.
• 1:13:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is the trial of Heather Douglas or Moon Dragon, which is going to be everything this conversation was amplified by about three years, there's a lot to talk about.
• 1:13:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait for that specifically.
• 1:13:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody, thank you so much.
• 1:13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had so much fun tonight and we'll see you all soon.
• 1:13:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you back here next time on the very mockinglaying Patreon.
• 1:13:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism, as a special guest tonight talked about a red skull story and its modern applications.
• 1:13:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: During World War II, there was a top secret United States Army unit, unlike any other, the ghost army.
• 1:13:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: While many troops fought with rifles and tanks, these men fought with art, sound, and illusion.
• 1:13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: made up of just over a thousand artists, designers, engineers, and sound technicians.
• 1:13:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Ghost Army's mission was to deceive the German military into thinking that they were a much larger force than they are.
• 1:13:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: They used inflatable tanks, fake radio transmissions, and even pre-recorded
• 1:14:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: to create the illusion of massive armies that didn't exist.
• 1:14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: They Scooby-Dude did not see his foot as funny, but their entire purpose was to trick the enemy.
• 1:14:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in doing so, it saved the lives of real soldiers who would otherwise have been sent into battle.
• 1:14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the most remarkable operations, and you can look these guys up.
• 1:14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: took place before the crossing of the Ryan River in March 1945, one of the final and most crucial campaigns of the war.
• 1:14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: The ghost army set up fake camps, staged convincing troop movements, and blasted recorded sounds to make the Germans believe that a major assault was happening miles away from the actual crossing point.
• 1:14:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: The rules worked so well that the German forces redirected their troops, leaving the real crossing site far less defended.
• 1:14:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: This deception allowed Allied forces to break through, and advance into Germany with fewer casualties.
• 1:14:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a stunning success, achieved without a single shot fired by the ghost army itself.
• 1:14:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: What makes this so extraordinary, however, though, is how long it stayed hidden.
• 1:14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: The ghost army's work was classified for more than 50 years.
• 1:15:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: meaning most of its members were unrecognized for their service and died before their names were known.
• 1:15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Many veterans died without ever sharing what they had done because they were bound by secrecy.
• 1:15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: When their story finally came into light in the 1990s, it reshaped some of our understanding of the American World War II strategy and revealed a whole new layer of heroism.
• 1:15:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: One built not on brute strength, but on creativity, deception, and psychological warfare.
• 1:15:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mysterio would love this story.
• 1:15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to jump over to Captain America number 437.
• 1:15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mark Greenwald is gonna die just shortly after this arc.
• 1:15:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's finishing his epic 10-year run on Captain America.
• 1:15:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Caps, a super soldier serum, has been wearing out and he's been wearing a really wonky kind of football uniform version of his costume that's also kind of like a battle armor and he's kind of just making the rounds as a lot of his stories wrap up.
• 1:15:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in this story, he's dying, and he's kind of fading and unable to move and paralyzed.
• 1:15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we get moments with his allies throughout this, but then we get key moments in his own memories in which on his dying kind of deathbed he's reliving some of his greatest battles with the Red Skull.
• 1:16:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we start in World War II, the Nazis are firing machine guns, and the Red Skull is fighting Captain America and Bucky.
• 1:16:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: He hits cap with a chair, veekling.
• 1:16:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're up and looking to my eyes, look at death.
• 1:16:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the memory turns people at night, Mayor, when the Red Skull touches Bucky, who withers away into dust and alteration in the memory.
• 1:16:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Captain America remembers that time, Red Skull got the cosmic cube.
• 1:16:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And tell me, this is not just a sexy role play, because the Red Skull's in his golden armor, purple cape, golden sword, cap drops to his knees, and listen to this dialogue.
• 1:16:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let all defer to the Red Skull to the matchless master of mankind,
• 1:16:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're like some super powerful present-day King Arthur, but you're stronger by far, and it will be my destiny to serve you as your first light.
• 1:16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Come forth and defeat it one, I shall pledge you to serve me for all the remaining days of your life.
• 1:16:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Before you begin, let me kneel before you, as is only fitting, fitting for one who must brace himself for the final desperate attack.
• 1:17:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then in this memory, the Red Skull grows to an even larger giant and traps teeny tiny Steve Rogers inside the cosmic cube, which is what the real Red Skull did to aid off Hitler if you recall.
• 1:17:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's another memory, of time when they were old men fighting to the death in Captain American number 300.
• 1:17:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's giving real boyfriend fight energy.
• 1:17:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fire of cosmic clothing, yells the Red Skull of divine madness, you finally see that this is how it must be, two gods locked in the raging battle for all eternity.
• 1:17:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: and Caps says, shut up, we are not too gods.
• 1:17:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're just too tired old men.
• 1:17:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hate you skull.
• 1:17:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hate what you are, what you've done to my friends, what you've done to the world.
• 1:17:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hate you with a passion that frightens me and then the red skull dies in this version of the story and Caps turns and the fucking statue of Liberty is in the distance talking to him in the weirdest fever dream of all time.
• 1:17:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, what drugs is this man on?
• 1:17:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: The statue of Liberty says,
• 1:18:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you simply accept me in your bosom and Captain America gives my favorite line of dialogue, he's ever spoken.
• 1:18:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lady Liberty, not you again.
• 1:18:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The real red skull work from Arnhem Zola that the super soldier serum is in in his own body is breaking down and he knows he himself is dying Which will set us up for our next story.
• 1:18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me welcome my favorite friend Sean for that to the show.
• 1:18:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi Sean.
• 1:18:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you a red skull fan?
• 1:18:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi Chad.
• 1:18:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: I am not, but as a gift for you I do have red skulls drag name while he's in this gold armor.
• 1:18:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm ready.
• 1:18:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Skull Deluxe Nope
• 1:18:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's got to be one of those old like old tiny bomber girl names like Axis Annie or like nasty Nazi like there's got to be some terrible fascism pun in there, but it's so amazing
• 1:18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you a Captain America friend?
• 1:19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like fan art.
• 1:19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you read these books ever?
• 1:19:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have not the biggest cap fan.
• 1:19:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have been reading him since about 2010, and he's been growing on me, but I'm not as familiar with the older cap stuff.
• 1:19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Greenwell has a long run.
• 1:19:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of queerness in it.
• 1:19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's great.
• 1:19:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: What were your thoughts on picking up this random fever dream of an issue?
• 1:19:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, especially like knowing nothing, coming in, knowing not knowing this is a fever dream or anything.
• 1:19:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: This was batshit.
• 1:19:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: This was crazy.
• 1:19:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: What is going on?
• 1:19:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Bucky's melting.
• 1:19:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Also like we have Orville Peck show up.
• 1:19:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's a jack flag and free spirit.
• 1:19:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: We've got a lot going on here.
• 1:19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a issue around here where someone calls them like Bucky and Bucket.
• 1:19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, oh no.
• 1:19:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 1:19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's like, yeah, there's a lot happening.
• 1:19:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is Cap on his death bed, kind of living his memories in a different way.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, clearly he's having a nightmare, but like him on his knees, like you're King Arthur and I'll be your night, like night me daddy energy is very odd.
• 1:19:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It is.
• 1:20:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's it's so interesting how we see this with like Batman joke or we see this with cap red skull with Professor X Magnita there's always like a strange love story going on with that and then we've got the red skull whose own body is breaking down Because he's literally living in Steve Rogers own body because it's like he's a clone now at this point It's it's craziness, but the but the real what the fuck moment is that statue of liberty.
• 1:20:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
• 1:20:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you simply accept me in your bosom, I'll tell you, oh, my favorite things, my favorite boy.
• 1:20:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, what if the hell is happening?
• 1:20:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we just get not again.
• 1:20:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's the structure of Liberty's driving me?
• 1:20:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, oh, I feel like it's made out of copper, right?
• 1:20:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Would it be something with the word copper?
• 1:20:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, could be justice and justice and freedom.
• 1:20:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like that one.
• 1:20:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like that one.
• 1:20:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell me two things?
• 1:20:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was really curious.
• 1:20:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Number one, why does Century look like he's a zombie?
• 1:20:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: And number two, what the hell is going on with Scarlett which is terrible outfit?
• 1:21:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the costume Wanda was wearing when she was part of ForceWorks.
• 1:21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a black, leotard with like a red 80s aerobic outfit over it.
• 1:21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: She had the really short hair for a while.
• 1:21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a weird era for Wanda.
• 1:21:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't like it.
• 1:21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I secretly wanna do a Sarah Century episode on the character century,
• 1:21:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, did you have thoughts on just kind of the layout of this issue?
• 1:21:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have this idea of America kind of locked into this endless battle with fascism and the way it takes these different forms.
• 1:21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: With the Statue of Liberty off in the distance as the skull finally dies as an old man and Steve's arms, this is craziness.
• 1:21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's truly nuts.
• 1:21:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: It is truly nuts and I I like the symbolism.
• 1:21:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it could have been done better.
• 1:21:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then the statue talking to him directly.
• 1:21:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I like this idea that yeah, we are constantly at war unfortunately.
• 1:21:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: We are always dealing with fascism even today.
• 1:21:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a nice idea.
• 1:21:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just a little crazy and it's a it's a finality.
• 1:22:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always a little annoyed.
• 1:22:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just I don't know.
• 1:22:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many issues that need to be told.
• 1:22:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever a superhero is just like stuck in their head for a whole issue and you're like, uh,
• 1:22:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not my favorite, but Grinwald's like tying up some themes in his long run here.
• 1:22:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Crazy characters, crazy 90s shit.
• 1:22:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I opened with the parallel of the ghost army, which I'm gonna presume is a story you've never heard before, because it's not one well known to modern readers.
• 1:22:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: This idea of illusion is kind of the throughline for these.
• 1:22:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was really interesting.
• 1:22:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you for educating me on that, because yeah, I hadn't heard of it before, so I like that.
• 1:22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we always tie in kind of a modern comparison.
• 1:22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: This like 2025 craziness.
• 1:22:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sean and I are recording this everybody.
• 1:22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It'll come out in a few months, but we're recording this about eight days after the Kirk Killing here in Utah.
• 1:22:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been on the front lines for several days.
• 1:22:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fascism conversations have been alive and well.
• 1:22:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: As we are kind of living as gay men in 2025.
• 1:22:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hold up these days, my friend, it's nuts.
• 1:23:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's been crazy like I've noticed seeing I'm noticing kind of the same rhetoric coming from the other side where people are automatically going to and this is like my friends parents I've known since I was in sixth grade this is my second grade teacher they both said the same thing they said why are you persecuting me from my religious beliefs and I told my friends out like I'm I didn't bring up your religious beliefs like I said nothing about your religion this is about a lot bigger things than that so it's been hard seeing people that I love and respect like taking a side that I didn't think they would
• 1:23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been giving a lot of public speeches about this lately.
• 1:23:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: A different company's, it takes me time to form my words because I have to form them in a certain way when I'm wearing a professional hat, right?
• 1:23:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I've really been laying out the division between, there's a significant separation between left and right.
• 1:23:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: People on the far right seem to be saying, and by the way, I did therapy with almost exclusively kind of like Maga kids this last week for tons and tons of hours, like dozens of people who witnessed this violence and it was really terrible, right?
• 1:23:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't stand for a done violence ever.
• 1:24:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, there's a significant difference between an entrenched belief system being challenged and the literal erosion of civil rights on the left.
• 1:24:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Watching immigrants and trans people and disabled people like lose their rights, right and left.
• 1:24:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the other side is saying, why don't I have the right to do that?
• 1:24:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you challenging my beliefs?
• 1:24:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same thing.
• 1:24:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think our ability to distinguish between them is growing increasingly frustrating.
• 1:24:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you are a very joyful person, and I think this is not your favorite conversation topic.
• 1:24:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I think.
• 1:24:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not afraid to talk about it though, so thank you for pointing out that I'm joyful.
• 1:24:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate it.
• 1:24:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm always, especially with my friends, Dad.
• 1:24:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: I came at him with, I just want you to look at the other side, because he couldn't understand why anybody would not be more mournful over Charlie Kirksteth.
• 1:24:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, you know, I'm not one to, I'm like you, I don't think he should have gotten killed.
• 1:24:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't take joy in that.
• 1:24:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: But
• 1:24:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: At the same time, I think it's good to look at the other side.
• 1:24:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think you need to learn why people feel the way they do, and even myself, I came into it, because I didn't really know Charlie before the assassination.
• 1:25:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I came into, like, oh, this guy's probably an asshole, and then I did a lot of research, and he did say a lot of good things.
• 1:25:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can see why he does have a big following, but he says a lot of bad things too.
• 1:25:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I still hold the belief that I don't appreciate what he was saying about my community or other people outside of my community.
• 1:25:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think, I don't know.
• 1:25:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was Mormon growing up, but I remember the, there was like a class that we had to take.
• 1:25:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a church class during school.
• 1:25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I would leave history class and then have like a religion class across the street at the church and then go back for like band or spelling after read, right?
• 1:25:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was like a part of my high school experience.
• 1:25:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is something a lot of Mormons do.
• 1:25:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the teacher teaching us a lesson one time, which I'm flipping back around here.
• 1:25:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, why would you ever watch her rate in our movie?
• 1:25:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, I know that a lot of people might say that there's some good things in it, and there's only a little bit of bad, but if I gave you Sean a glazed donut that had a literal piece of human poop baked into the corner of it, would you still choose to eat that donut?
• 1:26:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like,
• 1:26:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: his mindset with here was like if there was nudity or like bad language when you still eat the donut right like which is a weird way to teach a lesson but I might give the the opposite of this if Charlie Kirk had like a few good things to say but a lot of the donuts have human poop baked into
• 1:26:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure that they're super healthy.
• 1:26:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've also been helping people kind of sort out the idea that Charlie Kirk the man is not someone you know Like the only people who personally knew him knew him right where we're grieving the idea of the loss of a public figure and what he kind of represents
• 1:26:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, I'm seeing a lot of people compare him more to people like Warren Jeffs or like fundamentalist kind of believing like crazy Christians then they are to the politicians that he was supporting with rhetoric and it's a complicated thing to to say I don't think the right gets to say to the people that it's victimizing why aren't you grieving with me.
• 1:26:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's a fair thing to ask.
• 1:26:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, I don't think so either, especially after we've seen other people be assassinated who the president claims he didn't even know about.
• 1:27:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yep, and they're doing this crazy shit.
• 1:27:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like before the election, there was all the QAnon crazy.
• 1:27:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the the babies getting eaten in pizza restaurants kind of nonsense that you're like, Yeah.
• 1:27:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now they're doing all this shit about like transgender armies of assassins and like, It's truly stupid.
• 1:27:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hate it.
• 1:27:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hate it.
• 1:27:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're so much up.
• 1:27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do too.
• 1:27:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm in this dream with Cap, I'm going to give Lady Liberty the finger and say, I do not want to rest in your bosom right now.
• 1:27:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
• 1:27:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 1:27:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You need a boob job first.
• 1:27:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the ghost army, everybody use tactics, whatever you need to get through right now, right?
• 1:27:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to, to, I don't know, to use the tools we need to get by.
• 1:27:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get creative.
• 1:27:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a crazy world, and we're struggling to survive.
• 1:28:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Sean is the co-host on Solving Corrects, and also the voice of Hercules on my show.
• 1:28:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So watch out for him on future episodes in Paramalk and Lane, of course.
• 1:28:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any final thoughts on Cap 437, my friend?
• 1:28:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, thank you for having me read it just for the outfits alone.
• 1:28:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, all right, John.
• 1:28:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks everybody for listening.
• 1:28:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you back here.
• 1:28:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, next time where we will keep the stories going.
• 1:28:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, stay safe out there.
• 1:28:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Be joyful.
• 1:28:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you back here next time.