Latest / Pod Save America / Trump Calls January 6th a "Day of Love"

Transcript

Trump Calls January 6th a "Day of Love" · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Donald Trump says that January 6th was a, quote,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: day of love. And tells Latino voters that the jury's
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: still out on whether immigrants are eating pets in Springfield.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: JD Vance finally gives an answer on whether Trump lost
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: in 2020. We won't spoil it for you. And our
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: good friend Ben Wickler, chairman of the Wisconsin Democratic Party,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: stops by to talk about how things are going in
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the Badger State and how you can help there and
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: everywhere we need to win. But first... Kamala Harris went
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: on Fox News and lived to tell the tale. The
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: vice president sat down with Bret Baier for an interview
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night that just about everyone figured would be contentious.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And boy, did it deliver. Here's some of what just
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: over 7 million viewers saw Wednesday night.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Bret, let's just get to the point. OK, the point
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: is that we have a broken immigration system that needs
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: to be repaired.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: So your Homeland Security secretary said that 85% of apprehensions.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: I'm not finished.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: And let me just finish.
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: I'll get to the question.
• 1:22
  Speaker 6: I promise you.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: I was beginning to answer.
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: And when you came into office.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: The first bill, practically within hours of taking the oath.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: was a bill to fix our immigration system.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Yes, ma'am.
• 1:33
  Speaker 6: It was called the U.S.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: Citizenship Act of 2021. It was essentially a pathway to citizenship.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: May I finish responding, please? But you have to let
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: me finish, please.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: You had the White House and the House and the Senate,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: and they didn't bring up that bill.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: I'm in the middle of responding to the point you're raising,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: and I'd like to finish. Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry, and
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: with all due respect, that clip was not... what he
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: has been saying about the enemy within that he has
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: repeated when he's speaking about the American people. That's not
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: what you just showed. He was asked about that specifically. No, no, no,
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: that's not what you just showed in all fairness and
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: respect to you.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm telling you that was the question
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that we asked him.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: He didn't show that, and here's the bottom line. He
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: has repeated it many times, and you and I both
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: know that. And you and I both know that he
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: has talked about turning the American military on the American people.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: He has talked about going after people who are engaged
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: in peaceful protest. He has talked about locking people up
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: because they disagree with him. This is a democracy. And
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: in a democracy... The president of the United States in
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: the United States of America should be willing to be
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: for doing it. And this is what is at stake.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Hell yes.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Fucking love it.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I want to go grab my ballot and just drop
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: it off right now.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: You can. You literally can do that right now.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I can't find it. That's the whole thing.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, Jesus Christ.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Emily got hers. I don't know where mine is. Anyway,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: what did you think? What did you think of the
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: whole interview?
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I loved it. I have to say, there was a
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: bit of.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: You, a big proponent of Democrats going on Fox News.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Well, there is a little PTSD for me here because
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: back in 2010- I pushed very hard for Barack Obama
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: to do an interview with Bret Baier. We were trying
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: to pass the Affordable Care Act because we had all
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: these members in Republican districts. We were trying to get
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: to the support of Obamacare. And we did that interview.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Bret Baier interrupted Barack Obama. Very similar to this, 16
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: times in 20 minutes. And I would say the walk
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: from the East Wing, where the interview was conducted, back
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: to the West Wing was one of the longer walks
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: of my life.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Was he really mad at you?
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: No, he was more just, he, I'd say he was
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: disappointed was the word I would use. He just said, well,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: that was fun. And then we just walked in silence
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: for a long time.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I don't remember that interview, but was he as firm
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: and still polite as Kamala Harris was? Like, I thought
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: she really, she was great.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: She handled that.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: She could have gone back harder. She was like, she
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: was tough. But she didn't go– it was perfect, I thought.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: I thought her tone was perfect.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: She was great. She called out the bullshit, which I
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: think is one of the things you have to do
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: when you go on Fox News as a Democrat. It
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: is what Pete Buttigieg is great at, Gavin Newsom is
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: great at, is you call out the game. And when
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Bret Baier just fucking leading with his large chin, just
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: playing the wrong clip to clean up Donald Trump's mess
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: like the lackey that he is made it very easy
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: for him to do that.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: We should say for people at home, what happened was
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: they were talking about Trump's comments where he talked about
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the enemy within, which he said on a Fox News
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: program to Maria Bartiromo on Sunday. And Bayer didn't play
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: that clip of Trump talking to Maria Bartiromo, but played
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the clip of Trump responding to that clip when he
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: was asked a question about it at another Fox News
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: town hall. and gave a bullshitty reply that really was
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: just a bunch of lies and crazy news from Trump.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: And so just never played the actual clip because Fox
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: had probably been trying to hide the actual clip from
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: their audience ever since they originally aired it when Trump
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: was talking to Maria Bartiromo.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Just mask off moment as someone wrote today.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: So overall, you think it was worth doing Fox News?
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Net positive, net neutral, net negative. I think we both
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: know not net negative, but what do you think?
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Strong net positive. And like, as you said, I generally
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: counsel Democrats to not go on Fox News.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Like you did to me.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Like I did to you. And look, it worked great
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: for you. You have a new best friend in Jesse Waters.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: But this was one of those times where it made sense.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And here's why it was worth it. 7.1 million people
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: watched this interview. That is more than three times Brett
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Baer's normal audience. Do you know what the number one
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: market in the country was in terms of watching that interview?
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: Ooh, what?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, my friend.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, love that.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And it's clear. David Plouffe said this to me on
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Positive America over the weekend, but one of their targets
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: is Republican-leaning independents and soft Republicans. It's a group she
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: has made progress with. She's up to 9% of Republicans
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: in the latest Times-Santa poll. And this is a great
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: way to reach those voters. The best media moments are
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: ones where the candidate performs well, The platform is chosen
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: because it speaks directly to a voter target. And you
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: do so well that the clips will go viral on
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram and will reach voters who did not
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: actually tune in. On all three marks, she hit those here.
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: And it got outsized media coverage because it was like,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: you know, Kamala Harris goes into the lion's den. Ian Sams,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: who we know who's a Harris campaign spokesman, told Brian
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Stelter on his podcast that they did the interview for
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: two reasons. one, because they believe a considerable number of
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: undecided voters watch Fox, and two, to knock down the
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: lies they tell on Fox. Do you think that's right? Yeah,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: The more important and larger reason was the meta message
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: of she is strong enough and tough enough to go
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: in to a network that is actively working to elect
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: her opponent, take the tough questions, and Donald Trump is
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: too scared to do an interview with anyone serious. That's
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: the That's ultimately what you're trying to achieve. You're larger
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: than who the individual people were who watched the specific
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: interview in that moment.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I checked out the latest New York Times-Siena poll, the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: national one, where she's up three. And I looked at
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: the media consumption question at the very end. And 10%
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: of voters who aren't yet supporting Trump or Harris get
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: their news from Fox, which was like the third high.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: 15% said social media. 10% said local news, 10% said Fox,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: and then every other news source was in the low
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: single digits. So it is, you know, it's, there is some,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many, but there are some people
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: watching Fox and also Fox is on, especially if you
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: get out of blue cities, Fox is on, it's like the,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: the network that's on in like a doctor's office or
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: a store or an air, you know? And so there's
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: some people who aren't like Fox fans, but they just
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: like have Fox on and they're not all MAGA people.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Most of them are, but not all of them.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: It's the background music in a lot of communities. If
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: you go to get your oil changed, it's what's on
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: there at the doctor's office. Now, the thing that's always
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: hard and one of the reasons why I often counsel
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Democrats not to go on is that you can handle
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: your individual interview great, but Fox will take whatever the
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: worst clips are, and then they'll play those all day long.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: But you know what? They'll do that. If they didn't
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: have a clip from Fox to do that with, they'd
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: do that about her on any other issue.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: And she reached 7 million people doing it, right? Normally,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: if you're just a normal Democrat and you do it,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you just get the specific audience of that show midday,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: and then they can beat you up with it. Here,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: she obviously brought in a whole bunch of people, and
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: the people who tuned in are people who are A,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: willing to turn on Fox and B, interested enough to
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: hear what she has to say. So those are potential
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: voters for her.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Other thing, too, is she at one point in that
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: exchange about Enemy From Within, she talks about how General
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Mark Milley, who Donald Trump handpicked to be his chairman
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: of the Joint Chiefs, and how he told Bob Woodward
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is fascist to the core. And she
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: brought that up. And then, you know, Brett was like, oh, yeah, yeah,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: he did tell that to Bob Woodward. And that was apparently,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: according to the bulwark, only the third time Fox told
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: its audience that Mark Milley called Donald Trump fascist to
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: its core. That was the third time that happened. One
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: was from Kamala Harris, one was from Jessica Tarlow on
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: The Five, and one was, I forget when else it happened,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: but that was it. Three times since it's happened. It's
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: been like a couple weeks.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Just real fair and balanced journalist over there at Fox News.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: But that is another reason why you go on there,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: is that you expose... Fox viewers to facts that they
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: have not heard. Not just like correcting lies, but just
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: things that they've never heard. I thought the interview was
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: also an opportunity for Kamala to answer some of the
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: trickier questions she either hasn't answered or hasn't answered well.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: She was asked about the Trump campaign's accusations, which they
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: have put $ 20 million of ads behind. that she supported
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: gender-affirming care for undocumented immigrants who are incarcerated. She pointed
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: out that it is the law. These are court decisions
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: that have required this in prisons. And so it's not
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: like just some policy she's been pushing. And she pointed out,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: this was reported in the New York Times this week,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that that kind of care was also offered under the
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: woke administration of Donald Trump. So I thought she handled that.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: And then she was asked the question about Biden that
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: tripped her up on The View. Let's listen.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: It's interesting you said turn the page, Madam Vice President.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: You were asked on two different shows last week what,
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: if anything, you would do differently than President Biden.
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: Here's what you said.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: You're not Joe Biden. You're not Donald Trump. But nothing
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: comes to mind that you would do differently?
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Let me be very clear. My presidency will not be
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: a continuation of Joe Biden's presidency. And like every new
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: president that comes in to office, I will bring my
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: life experiences, my professional experiences, and fresh and new ideas.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: I represent a new generation of leadership. For example, I'm
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: someone who has not spent the majority of my career
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: in Washington, D.C. I invite ideas, whether it be from
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: the Republicans who are supporting me, who were just on
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: stage with me minutes ago, and the business sector, and
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: others who can contribute.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: How do you think she handled it this time?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I would say much better. Much better. I mean, her
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: answer is interesting because she obviously... improves upon the nothing
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: comes to mind answer, which is now starring in a
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: pretty brutal ad that the Trump campaign is pouring money
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: in in the battleground states. I sent it to you earlier.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I hope you didn't click.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: No, I just saw Tommy respond, boy, that's brutal. And
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: I decided I was not going to click.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I honestly debated whether to send that to you or not.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Because we don't live in a battleground state, you could
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: just live in blissful ignorance for the next three weeks
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: without knowing that was up there.
• 12:17
  Speaker 7: So she.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: She answered it much better. And the other thing I
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: thought was interesting about the answer is she spoke to
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: two groups.
• 12:26
  Speaker 6: Of people, right?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: And there's two interrelated groups, but one are people who
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: are dissatisfied with the present conditions of America under Joe Biden.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: As unfair as that may be to all the many
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: great things Joe Biden has accomplished, there's a lot of
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: people who think that. He has low approval ratings and
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: you have wrong track numbers that are above 60. but
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: she also, by simply saying, my president's not a continuation
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: of Joe Biden. But then she pivots and says, but
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I have not spent my career in Washington. And that
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: is speaking to the people who are mad about politics generally,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: that she is an outsider, right? In general, outsider candidates
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: do quite well. And she can't be a true outsider
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: because she is literally the city of the United States,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: but she does have a unique biography and a unique background.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: And the person she's running against is not necessarily an
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: outsider because he was the former president of the United States.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: And so I thought just that pivot to I didn't
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: spend my career in Washington was notable and interesting.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: If she gets it again, like, I think there's a
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: way for her to do this that is, it's not
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: even that critical of Joe Biden, right? It's just like,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: you know, Joe Biden had to, when Joe Biden and
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I took office, had to deal with an economic crisis
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: caused by the pandemic. And he did that, pulled the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: economy out of recession. But now our problem It's a
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: new time, new problem. Costs are too high. So I'm
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: going to build three million affordable homes and I'm going
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: to crack down on price gouging and I'm going to
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: expand Medicare to cover home care.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Whatever her economic plan is so she can. And I
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: actually saw that Blueprint polling tested these and some of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the answers that tested the best on separating yourself from Biden.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: It's not really saying like, oh, Joe Biden did this
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: wrong and I'm going to do this. It's just like,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: you know what? new person, new time, new challenges. And
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: here's what I'm going to focus on now, right? Like
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's thing was get us out of the pandemic,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: get the economy back on track. And my thing is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: now costs are too high. And so I'm going to
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: bring them down. Like, I just, I think, I think
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: a little granularity on ideas and policies that she's going
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to pursue in connection to that answer is going to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: be helpful. Yeah.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: It's just, it is just, you have to think about
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: an opportunity. You make the initial statement that my presidency
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: will not be a continuation of Joe Biden's. And then
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: it's just an opportunity to restate your popular policy agenda.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Because I think you have to be careful not to
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: play the press this game here, which they also read
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: that and were like, well, she didn't really distinguish herself.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: What would you do differently? What did he do wrong?
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: And I just think there's too much drama that comes
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: with that. And it's too much of an inside baseball
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: for the actual voters.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Well, she's also, I mean, there's an honesty issue there too,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: which is like she was there, right? So you can't,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the next, if she says like, oh, Joe Biden made
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: this decision and I wouldn't have made it. Then you're
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: going to be like, well, did you tell him at
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the time that it was wrong? Yeah, it just opens
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: up a can of worms. You can't go down that.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So before she sat down with Britt Baer, Harris appeared
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: in Washington Crossing, Pennsylvania, where George Washington famously crossed the Delaware, Dan.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: And she was there with more than 100 Republican lawmakers
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and government officials who she said put country first by
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: endorsing her, including former House members Adam Kinzinger and Barbara Comstock.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: What do you think of how she's using Republicans to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: make the case? And do you think... that is going
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: to be effective in reaching some of those voters we
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: were talking about who maybe tuned into the Brett Baier
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: interview who might be, you know, right-leaning independents or Republicans
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: who were done with Trump.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Like, we live in such highly polarized times that if
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: you're a Republican, you identify as a Republican. That's probably
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: been your party identity most of your adult life, if
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: not your entire life. You voted for Mitt Romney. You
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: voted for, you know, maybe you voted for some Bushes.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: You voted for, maybe you voted for Donald Trump once.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And crossing that Rubicon to break with how you see yourself,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: because most people's, in highly polarized times, people's political identity
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: is their primary identity. That's how they see themselves. That's
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: how they sort themselves with their friends. And so to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: break from that and to do something that runs counter
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: to that identity is hard. And the way you get
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: people to do that is you show lots of other
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: people doing the same thing. this is why you bring
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: a hundred Republicans on stage. It's why Sarah Longwell's group
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: is running ads with videos of Republicans speaking directly to
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: cameras saying, I voted for Trump, but this time I'm
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: not for these reasons. And so this is how you
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: do it. Trump is doing the opposite. I just saw
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: before we got on here, Trump doing at a barbershop
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: in the Bronx, sitting with a bunch of black men talking,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: just sort of shooting the shit with them just because
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you he's trying to do the same thing with a
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: different group of voters to show that, you know, the
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: water's warm, there are other people like you here. And
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: so it's a smart, savvy understanding of the way politics
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: works these days.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Also, I think there's two target demos they're trying to
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: reach here. There's people who don't always vote, and there's
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: people who don't always vote for Democrats. And I think
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: the Harris-Walls campaign is obviously going after both groups, but
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: it is harder to reach the people who don't always vote, right?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And they are they are not as dependable and they
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: are low propensity voters and it's going to take more
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: resources to find them, to convince them to come out
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: to the polls. And I'm sure they're doing that. But
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the thing about the people who don't always vote for Democrats,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: whether they're independent or Republicans who are open to voting
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: for Democrats, is they are very reliable voters and they
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: show up in a lot of these elections. And so
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing the campaign's thinking, all right, it's probably a
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: more bang for our buck to go after some of
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: these soft Republicans, right-leaning independents, and Donald Trump has made
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: them available to the Harris campaign because he's so extreme.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: That wouldn't usually happen in a campaign for a Democratic campaign,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: but Donald Trump has made it more possible this time.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: I can't remember if I used these numbers on this
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: podcast or one of these 700 other podcasts we've done recently,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: but You know, Blueprint also polled Haley voters, and there's
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: a large chunk of Haley voters who are not with
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Trump yet and are open to the idea of supporting Harris,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: but she's got work to do. But just to put
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: that number in perspective, 76,000 people voted for Nikki Haley
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: in the Wisconsin primary in 2020. Joe Biden won Wisconsin
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: by 21,000 votes.
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Obviously, you're not going to get all of them. You
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: probably aren't going to get most of them, but that's
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: a big chunk of voters who could decide the election.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And the numbers are similar in the other battleground states.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Right. So we learned today about two other Republicans who've
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: decided to level their critiques of Trump in private, like
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: a couple of profiles in courage. Mitch McConnell, who apparently
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: participated in an oral history project, oral history of like
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: slowly degrading democracy. I don't know what the project was,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: but he's on an audio recording calling Trump after January 6th, quote, stupid,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: a narcissist, and a despicable human being. No word on
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: when that recording will be available. but it's a book
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: that journalist Mike Tackett is writing, and so the AP
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: reported it today. When asked by the Associated Press about
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: these comments, McConnell said, quote, whatever I may have said
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: about President Trump pales in comparison to what J.D. Vance,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham, and others have said about him, but we're
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: all on the same team now. You know what? I
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: respect it.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: I truly respect that response.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: What a dick.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he is one of history's great villains and cowards, but...
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I respect the response there.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, our pal Tim Miller broke some news over the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: bulwark about former Trump Defense Secretary James Mattis on Tim's
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Bulwark podcast. Bob Woodward revealed that Mattis emailed him to
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: say that he agrees with General Mark Milley's assessment that
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Trump is quote, the most dangerous person ever. So thanks
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: to both Jim Mattis and Mitch McConnell stepping up when
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: it really matters, huh? I mean, look. Come on, people.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Say it out loud in front of a camera.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: It's pure cowardice to sit there and believe that a fascist,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: someone you believe is a fascist, a dangerous fascist, is
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: on the cusp of becoming President of the United States,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and your response is to email Bob Woodward after his
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: book comes out? Hey, Bob, maybe you put this in
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: your next one in 2026.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: It's just.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Don't know, man. I don't know. Are these revelations something
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: that the Harris campaign should be using down the homestretch?
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: She's already in her rallies all this week. She's been
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: talking about the Milley comments, which I think is very smart.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: I think I think when your opponent's former top general
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: that they hired is running around telling people that the
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: opponent's a fascist and the most dangerous person to ever
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: exist is like a four-star general. I think that's useful,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the useful knowledge for people. It is.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's useful and it's a piece of
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: information that every voter should have before they make their decision.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Just seems like you should put it, it should be
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: in the voter guide, frankly. We've talked about this before.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: These are hard arguments to sell to a lot of voters,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: particularly ones who are not super engaged with the news
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: on a daily basis, because they were alive for the
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: last Trump presidency and they didn't see it as fascist.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And so that it's just, it'd be much more powerful
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: on camera, but it just is a, you should talk
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: about it for sure. It should be part of the
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: argument as we raise the stakes, but recognizing that it's
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: hard to convince people that Trump will be a dictator
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: or a fascist because they believe he was not. Now
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: you can get some granularity to it. That is, and
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: you need, this is the You see this in their
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: ads a little bit where it's like Trump has changed.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: He's less stable. You talk about this a lot. He's
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: got different people around him. You got to tell the
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: whole story for people to understand why this time would
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: be different than last time. Because last time is we
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: had a kind of embarrassing president. Didn't seem great at
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: his job.
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: Eggs were cheap.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Then something really bad happened. Those beyond his control in
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: America got fucked up. We fired him. Now he's back, right?
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think this is appealing to me,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: not necessarily because we're trying to convince people that Donald
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Trump is a fascist, who don't already think that he's
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: a fascist or a dictator or whatever you may want
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: to do. I do agree that you have to frame
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: it as the guy, since you last saw him, is different.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: He is older, crazier, more unhinged. The guy has lost
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: a step, clearly. He's swaying and dancing at his events.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: He's saying he's going to use the military against people.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: He's nuts. He's lost it. I think that is the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: argument you have to make. But I think One of
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: the most effective arguments here is that so many people
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: that have worked for Donald Trump at the most senior
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: levels do not think he is fit for office. So
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Blueprint also did a test of all closing arguments, which
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: was the most effective. Number one most effective argument, it
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: boosted Kamala Harris 12 points with all voters and 14
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: points with independents. Nearly half of Trump's cabinet have refused
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: to endorse him. When Trump learned during the Capitol riot
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that his supporters were threatening to kill his own vice president,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: he said, so what, and refused to do anything to
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: ensure the vice president was safe. Republican governors, senators, and
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: House members have all said the same thing. We can't
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: give Trump another four years of president. So that was
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the number one most effective closing argument. Number two was abortion.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Close behind it. That boosted her 10 and 12 with independence.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And then after that, an argument about Social Security and
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: what Trump would do on Social Security and what Trump
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: would do on ACA. That boosted her six points. And
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: then everything else was like in the single digits or negative.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: But those those were the best arguments, closing arguments against Trump.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: The first number I read was all voters. And then
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: the second one was independents.
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: So that's pretty, you know, I just think that people,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: if you don't know much about whatever, you don't have
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: to make the argument that he's a fascist. Just like, hey,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: see these generals, see these defense secretaries, national security advisors,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Mike Pence. They're all like, no, no, don't do it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Don't do it.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I would say that right now we are standing at
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: the crossroads of a very large debate within the democratic
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: political community right now about how best to close this race.
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: That is one argument.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the other one is like, let's talk about
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: price gouging.
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: No, no, no.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: It's not.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Which I love. You know how much I love talking
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: about price gouging.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: No one hates price gouging more than you. You're the guy.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And I'm still angry at the nerds, the liberal policy
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: nerds that don't think it's a good.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: It's really, I think, between the first argument on that
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: list and the second one, which is a more focus
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: on abortion than anything else. Abortion economy. It's basically– Take
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: everything that has been, every dollar and cent and ounce
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: of blood, sweat, and tears that's been put in building
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: up where Kamala Harris is right now and putting that
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: into one argument as opposed to sort of a shift
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: at the end here, which this is a shift from
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: where she was.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a shift.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying, I'm not weighing in here. I want
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: to see more data.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I could craft an argument that gets
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: it all together. I mean, it's like you start with Trump.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: You start with the fact that he has lost a step.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: He is unstable. He is unhinged. And then you go
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: through all the policies, right? Like he, you know, he
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: was always anti-choice. But now he wants to have a
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: national abortion ban and leave in place Trump bans that
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: have led women to die. He was always for tariffs.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Now he wants to slap 20% tariffs on everything we
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: buy that's imported. iPhones, tequila, cars, everything else. He was
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: always sort of crazy. But now he wants to turn
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the military on America. You know, like, I think he'll
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: go down the list that way.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Your fingers work. I'll kind of deal with you. You
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: write that down. I'll put it in a very popular
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: political newsletter called The Message Box.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, cool. I can guest write a message box.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Or, you know what? I know you don't write anymore,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: so just send me a voice memo, and I will
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: dictate it.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, nice go. Well, I'm doing this podcast. Maybe someone
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: could take notes. All right, let's talk about Donald Trump.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: He did this Univision town hall this week. It aired
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night. Surprise, surprise. It was a lot more challenging
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: than his Fox News women's town hall, which it turns
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: out was actually stocked with Trump supporters. Oh, what a surprise.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Couldn't tell that from the fucking town hall. I watched
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: five minutes of it when I walked in the office yesterday,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: and I was like, this is embarrassing. I think Kamala
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Harris would have gotten tougher questions from her own staff.
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: Oh, yeah.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I take that as a strong yes.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Than the questions that they got. One woman literally stood
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: up and she was just like, I just want to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: thank you for everything you're doing to stop the woke military.
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: What?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Is there a question here? But anyway, the Univision town hall,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: excellent questions. And there were some people who had voted
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump and had been Republicans in the town
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: hall who asked him questions, including this man. Let's listen. Okay.
• 27:06
  Speaker 8: I am a Republican, no longer registered. I want to
• 27:09
  Speaker 8: give you the opportunity to try to win back my vote.
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 27:16
  Speaker 8: Your, I would say, action and maybe inaction during your
• 27:21
  Speaker 8: presidency and the last few years sort of, you know,
• 27:27
  Speaker 8: was a little disturbing to me. You know, what happened
• 27:29
  Speaker 8: during January 6th and the fact that, you know, You
• 27:34
  Speaker 8: waited so long to take action while your supporters were
• 27:37
  Speaker 8: attacking the Capitol. I'm curious how people so close to
• 27:40
  Speaker 8: you and your administration no longer want to support you.
• 27:44
  Speaker 8: So why would I want to support you? If you
• 27:47
  Speaker 8: would answer these questions for me, I would really appreciate
• 27:49
  Speaker 8: it and give you the opportunity. Your own vice president
• 27:53
  Speaker 8: doesn't want to support you now.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Ramiro.
• 27:55
  Speaker 7: So the people that don't support a very small portion,
• 27:59
  Speaker 7: we have a tremendous, about 97% of the people in
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: the administration.
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: Support me.
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: But because it's me, somebody doesn't support, they get a
• 28:07
  Speaker 7: little publicity. The Vice President, I disagree with him on
• 28:11
  Speaker 7: what he did. I totally disagree with him on what
• 28:15
  Speaker 7: he did. Very importantly, you had hundreds of thousands of
• 28:19
  Speaker 7: people come to Washington.
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: They didn't come because of me. They came because of
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: the election.
• 28:23
  Speaker 7: They thought the election was a rigged election, and that's
• 28:26
  Speaker 7: why they came. Some of those people went down to
• 28:28
  Speaker 7: the Capitol. I said, peacefully and patriotically, nothing done wrong.
• 28:33
  Speaker 7: At all, nothing done wrong. And action was taken, strong action.
• 28:38
  Speaker 7: Ashley Babbitt was killed. Nobody was killed. There were no
• 28:41
  Speaker 7: guns down there. We didn't have guns. The others had guns,
• 28:44
  Speaker 7: but we didn't have guns. And when I say we,
• 28:46
  Speaker 7: these are people that walked down. This was a tiny
• 28:49
  Speaker 7: percentage of the overall, which nobody sees and nobody shows.
• 28:53
  Speaker 7: But that was a day of love from the standpoint
• 28:56
  Speaker 7: of the millions. It's like hundreds of thousands.
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: It could have been.
• 29:00
  Speaker 7: The largest group I've ever spoken before. They asked me
• 29:03
  Speaker 7: to speak. I went and I spoke.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Day of love. Day of love, Dan. They tried to,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: they wanted to hang the vice president. They were hunting
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi. Police officers were beaten within an inch of
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: their lives.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Pipe bombs.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Pipe bombs. And by the way, they did have guns.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe Trump didn't have a gun, but because he did
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: say we. But they had guns and Trump knew they
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: had guns, which we learned in the January 6th committee
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: investigation that he said, yeah, they have guns, but they're
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: not going to hurt me. So who cares? Let them
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: through the magnetometers. That was the quote from him. So
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Trump knew that they were armed with guns. So he
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: knew he was lying, but it was a day of love.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It was a day of love. What'd you think of
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: that exchange?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Honestly, holy fucking shit.
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: What are we doing?
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is truly an insane thing to say.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: This is his biggest vulnerability in the election. And frankly,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: that's also his biggest legal liability is January 6th. It
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: is incredibly unpopular. Even most Republicans don't support what happened
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: on that day. It was an act of absolute violence,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: of domestic terrorism. And Donald Trump calls it a day
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of love, like 20 days before the election. We're just like, oh,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: crazy Trump, just talking again.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Something is seriously broken in It is the media environment.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: It is our own attention span. I saw you tweeting
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: this today that like, how is this not the biggest story?
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Like Jim Comey. put out a letter saying, oh, there
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: was a couple more emails from Hillary we're looking into,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: and it upended the entire fucking election for the last
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: couple weeks.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And maybe civilization. It upended civilization.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is waiting to possibly stand trial because he's
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: been indicted for trying to overturn the last election and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: foment a violent insurrection, and then goes back to it
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: at a town hall and says it was a day
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: of love. I mean, it is, it's insane.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: We should not be talking about anything else for the
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: next couple of weeks. And why is not every Republican
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: being asked if January 6th is a day of love?
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: All those ones who were in all the video, the
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: documentary video footage, running for their fucking lives, desperately calling
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: the White House to try to get help. It's just,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: it is a blip. And it is, like, it's not
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: anyone's fault. It is a structural problem in our democracy
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: right now that is just.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: But it's that structural problem, which is kind of why
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: we're in this mess right now, is just highlighted by
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the fact that he can say that. And we've just
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: moved on. And it happened not 24 hours ago.
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Well, fortunately, Kamala Harris jumped on this today in Wisconsin.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Let's listen to what she said.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump was at a Univision town hall where a
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: voter asked him about January 6th.
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: So now we here know January 6th was a tragic day.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: It was a day of terrible violence. And what did
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump say last night about January 6th? He called
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: it a quote, a day of love. But it points
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: out something that everyone here knows. The American people are
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: exhausted with his gaslighting. Exhausted with his gaslighting.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Enough! What did you think of that?
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Can I ask you a question as a once and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: potentially future wordsmith?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Do you think people know what gaslighting means?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I did not enjoy gaslighting the word gaslighting. I think
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it is a resistance term from 2017 that has been
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: overused and then now a bunch of people use it
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: This is a correct usage of it.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: She used it correctly. Absolutely. But many people have used
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: it in such wrong ways that it's sort of... I
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: don't know if it's that he's... I guess I don't
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: know if the criticism is that he's gaslighting necessarily. The
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: criticism is that he thinks that attacking the seat of government,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people violently attacking the seat of government
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: was a day of love. that he was responsible for,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: that he is currently under indictment for. He is not
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: fit to be president. He is not fit to be president.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: He should be in jail.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: One more turn of the argument there, right? Where either
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: it's a combination of he's dangerous and or delusional.
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Because we're, yes, exactly. The frame that he has lost it.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: It's the same dancing up on stage, swaying back and forth.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: thinking about he's mad King. You know, it's just, it's,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Like, do they push this?
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Do they keep pushing it? Like I can imagine they put,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I was tweeting, I was like, how long until someone
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: has Donald Trump's answer and a side-by-side with the videos
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: from January 6th, where cops are just getting assaulted and
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: people getting hurt. And Sure enough, the Harris campaign, like
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: in a couple hours, put out that video. Like, is
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: it an ad? Do you run an ad about it?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Does she bring it up in an interview? Like, what
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: do you think? I don't know.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: It's hard to do. Yeah, I think she should bring
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: it up all the time. Just, I mean, part of
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: this is, not to harken back to the previous debate,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: but there is your final closing message. But there's also,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: you just have to be on offense every day for
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: the next 17 days or whatever it is we have left.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And this is one way in which you do that.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: And so every day you're doing all these rallies, you're
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: mixing new stuff in. And I think it's just like,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Sticking with making this part of the pitch at the
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: end here is good. I mean, look, there's only so
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: many ads that can run between now and election day.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: And so switching that out for something else, you already,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: because there's already traffic on now and it has to
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: bleed through all of its points to have been an
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: effective use of money. And then they obviously have a
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: closing argument ad that's coming at some point for the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: final few days. So, I mean, you can do digital
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: stuff with it for sure. Putting on actual linear TV
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: is probably tough and you just have no points to
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: waste right now.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One other thing that came up at the town hall, notable, Springfield, Springfield, Ohio.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Let's listen.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: My question to you very respectfully is, do you really
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: believe that these people are eating the people's pets? Thank you. Well,
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: thank you very much. This was just reported.
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: I was just saying what was reported that's been reported
• 35:22
  Speaker 7: and eating other things, too.
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: That they're not supposed to be.
• 35:25
  Speaker 7: But that's been in the newspapers and reported pretty broadly.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: No, no, it has not been reported at all. It
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: was reported by you and J.D. Vance and a bunch
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: of people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I do give that guy credit for asking the question respectfully.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: With all due respect, sir, were they eating the pets?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: The sad part for me as I was listening to
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: that answer was I am so online that I know
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: exactly what Trump is talking about when he says other things.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Which is the geese. It's the geese in the parks.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 36:00
  Speaker 6: I know.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Which also, not true.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Not true.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: No.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You think you go to a town hall,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: a Univision town hall, and you say that you just
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: spread a debunked conspiracy that legal immigrants are eating people's pets.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: He's going to... What is he going to do? Is
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: he going to be better in the Latino vote than
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: last time? Is that where we're headed?
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: We'll find out. It's just... It's just worth putting a
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: button on the fact that this is depraved sociopathic behavior
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: because there are innocent people, not just the migrants in Springfield.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Everyone in Springfield's life has been massively disrupted about this.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: There are bomb threats in schools. People are scared because
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: he has this dumb fucking lie that he can't admit
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: was wrong and just move on from.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And he has done the same thing to folks in
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: North Carolina who are recovering from the hurricane. They've had
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: to deal with the conspiracies, people in Aurora. who now
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: have to deal with the fact that they think that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: other people think Venezuelan gangs have taken over the whole city.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Everywhere he goes, he just spreads conspiracies in order to
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: try to win, then end up hurting people. He's just
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: a fucking chaos machine.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Just does not care.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Another part of the argument that they should make.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a long message box you're writing.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: I'm struggling with this because I get, I am a
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: data person, look at the polls, look at the stuff,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: and I get That especially because she is relatively new
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: to the national scene as a presidential candidate this time around,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that she needs to define herself. And people want to
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: know what she's going to do for them and what
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: she's going to do for the country and her vision.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And that's like incredibly important for her to talk about.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, she's not running against a
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: typical Republican. She's running against Donald Trump. And Liz Cheney,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: these are all these Republicans. They're not like supporting her
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: because they like her policies. They're supporting her because they
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: don't like her policies, but Donald Trump is fucking nuts.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And if I was going to make an argument to
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: someone who's going into the voting booth and wasn't sure
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: what they were going to do, I would probably be like, yeah,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: maybe you agree with some of the stuff she says,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: maybe you don't agree with other stuff, but this man
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: is unfit to be president because he has lost his
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: fucking marbles, and that's it.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the important part in that is And
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I think it fits in any version of the argument
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: you want to do, but it's that all the people
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: who know him best and worked for him before.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Don't think he should be president again.
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Don't take my word for it. I'm a crazy lib, right? Like,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: listen to General Mattis and the Joint Chiefs guy and
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Mike Pence.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Dick Cheney.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Dick Cheney. You know, you got to listen to Dick Cheney.
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Before we get to Ben Wickler, one last thing I
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: wanted to mention.
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: J.D.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Vance finally coughed up an answer on whether he believes
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: the big lie. He was asked yet again at an event,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election? And his response is,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I've answered this question directly a million times. No. I
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: think there are serious problems in 2020. So did Donald
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Trump lose the election? Not by the words I would use.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: What the fuck does that mean? I don't know. I
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: guess that's just, that's one where I do think like
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: going back to Big Lie, what do they think? I
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: don't know how many people that moves because you've got
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: to move the, threat of a Trump presidency forward and
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: you can't just be looking at the past but like
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: it goes into the whole like J.D. Vance is full
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: of shit and will do Donald Trump's bidding no matter
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: what and is next in line for the presidency if
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: he wins. And Donald Trump is fucking old and under
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: many indictments.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: I think people assume, and it's kind of the way
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: the press coverage is, there's a natural assumption. It's like, well,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Democrats and independents know the truth. All the Republicans believe
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: it's a big lie. That's actually not true. In fact,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: only a third of voters believe the big lie, and
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: less than two-thirds of Republicans believe it. And so it
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: is a signifier that you're an extremist kook when you
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: talk about the big lie. There is this Stanford Business
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: School study from 2022 that showed that the big lie
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: candidates did around two points worse than the non-big lie
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Republicans in that election. And so I'm not saying this
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: is going to cost Donald Trump and J.D. Vance two points,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: but But it does matter because it says something to
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: voters about who you are, which then it can be
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: projected forward about all the other extreme crazy things you
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: will do. It's tied to your people believe if you're
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: crazy enough to do that, you're crazy enough to do
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: all these other things like right to contraception, gay marriage,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: book banning, cutting Social Security and Medicare and all that stuff.
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: No, that makes sense.
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Before we get to our interview with Ben, one quick
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: announcement this year. Climate is on the ballot all across
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: the country. And voters like you are deciding on critical
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: climate measures that affect the air we breathe, the water
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: we drink, and whether we'll still have summers that aren't
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: on fire. Vote Save America's build your own ballot tool
• 40:55
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• 40:58
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• 41:00
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• 41:03
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• 41:06
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• 41:08
  Speaker 1: electing climate champions. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash climate to check
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: it out now. And also, again, sign up, votesaveamerica.com slash travel.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: You can go to a swing state. There's travel and
• 41:21
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• 41:24
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• 41:26
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• 41:27
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• 41:31
  Speaker 1: As we have talked about this entire episode, the media
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: environment is broken. There are structural problems with people remembering shit.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: And so the conversations... that you have in these final
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: weeks with people, with people who have not decided whether
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: they're going to vote or who they're going to vote for,
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• 41:53
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• 42:02
  Speaker 1: When we come back, Ben Wickler. Joining us now, he's
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: the chair of the Wisconsin Democratic Party and a friend
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: of the pod. Just looking great, as she said. And
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing from you're in Green Bay right now, Ben Wickler.
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: In Green Bay, Wisconsin. And hello, Pod Save America and John.
• 42:31
  Speaker 6: It's good to be with you today.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: So you're in Green Bay. I know that Kamala Harris
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: is going to be there today as well. Wisconsin was
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: decided by 20,000 votes in 2020. 2022, the Senate race
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: was decided by just under 30,000 votes. So 50-50 state
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: has been for a while. Polling in the spring and
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: summer suggested Wisconsin was the blue wall state where Democrats
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: had the biggest lead. Now it's arguably the tightest state
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: once again, as it had been in 2020. What, if anything,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: do you think has changed in the race over the
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: last month?
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: I'm removing my cheese head because I'm nodding vigorously and
• 43:08
  Speaker 6: it is hard to nod in a cheese head. So
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: I'm replacing it with my camo hair. I love that.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Love that hat.
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: Wisconsin is being itself. Wisconsin is the 50-50 state. So
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: the big question is whether there's polling error and which
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: direction it goes. But the polls getting super, super tight
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: is kind of what we experience a lot here. And
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: right now the presidential race is a toss up. The
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: Senate race is now a toss-up. The Republicans have flooded
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: the zone with attack ads against Tammy Baldwin, so that
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: race has gotten super tight. The fight for the state
• 43:40
  Speaker 6: assembly majority is a toss-up. We are trying to flip
• 43:43
  Speaker 6: four state Senate seats to pave a way to a
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: Senate majority in 2026. And then there's multiple House races
• 43:49
  Speaker 6: that are in the margin of error. So it is
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: intense across the board. And the question is, were we
• 43:55
  Speaker 6: ahead before, and now it's just the partisans are kind
• 43:58
  Speaker 6: of returning to their camps?
• 43:59
  Speaker 7: Or.
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: Was there some kind of response bias that was kind
• 44:03
  Speaker 6: of getting the polls a little bit off? And now
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: it's actually a truer picture of what's been here all along.
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: But either way, our expectation in the final sprint is
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: that this thing comes down to like two or three
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: votes per precinct across the state. And it's in the
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: margin of effort, as we say, not the margin of error.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I promise I won't harp on the polling for too long,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: but I'm just wondering about the polling error in Wisconsin
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: or the potential polling error. It was the biggest polling
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: error of any state in 2020. we all remember the
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Biden plus 17 poll. But even the average was way off,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: and it was more off than most other states in
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: most other cycles. What's your take on whether the best pollsters,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: especially private campaign pollsters, have fixed the problem? Or what
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: have they said to you about trying to fix the problem?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: What are you most worried about in terms of what
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: the polls are telling you about where the electorate is?
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Not just in the like, what's the horse race? Because
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: who cares about that? But you know, in terms of
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: where the campaigns are putting time, money, resources, et cetera?
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker 6: Well, we've been just obsessed ever really since 2016, but
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: especially after 2020, because we had the biggest polling year
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: in the country also 2016, seven points off in the
• 45:14
  Speaker 6: RealClearPolitics average in 16 and 20. That was before the
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: flood of red wave kind of skewed polling. And the
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: result of that has been a kind of flowering of
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: a tons of different types of ways to measure what's
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: happening with whom. Tons of focus groups focus on particular
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: subpopulations around the state across race, ethnicity, gender, geography, generation.
• 45:34
  Speaker 6: It's lots of polls at different levels conducted with different
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: methodologies that we can kind of pile on top of
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: each other. It's tons of work to model who's going
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: to say what when we knock on their door and
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: then compare that to what actually happens when we talk
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: to them. So you can get a sense of whether
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: you're off one way or the other. That was part
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: of what happened in 2016. We ignored the data from
• 45:52
  Speaker 6: the field. We don't do that anymore anymore. And all
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: those signals are telling us that this is likely to
• 45:56
  Speaker 6: be super close. Now, that said, if we wake up
• 45:59
  Speaker 6: the day after the election and we've lost by several
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: points or won by several points, in a way, I
• 46:03
  Speaker 6: would not be shocked because there are two big forces,
• 46:06
  Speaker 6: one pushing in one direction, the other in the other.
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: One is that there's a lot of Trump supporters that
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: just do not trust polling and won't answer pollster phone calls.
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: And every pollster has to guess how big the partisan
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: non-response bias is. And then the other thing is that
• 46:20
  Speaker 6: the Dobbs decision especially has energized a ton of people,
• 46:23
  Speaker 6: especially women, especially young women, but also older women in
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: all parts of the state who are, I think, potentially
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: going to vote in a furious and intensive way that
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: isn't necessarily reflected in public opinion polling. Now, if I
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: was a pollster, I'd tell you. These two forces are
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: probably going to basically cancel each other out. We're trying
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: to predict both, and we think it's tied and it
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: will be tied, or that's the most likely thing, and
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: that's what the margin of error is for, is to
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: show you how far it could shift in either direction.
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: But we won't really know until the final ballot's counted.
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: And the only thing we can do in the meantime
• 46:56
  Speaker 6: is assume that it is... literally a coin flip, and
• 47:00
  Speaker 6: that if we throw everything we have against the wall,
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: if we organize with every second of daylight and into
• 47:05
  Speaker 6: the dark now that the sun is setting so early,
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: if we make every phone call, if we raise every
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: dollar to get it into paid communication in every form,
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: all of that might be enough to win by a
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: hair's breadth and save democracy.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I've heard you say that another challenge in figuring this
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: out is same-day registration in Wisconsin. And so you can
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: get a flood of people who show up on election
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: day and that were probably never captured or thought about
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: by not only pollsters, but I guess modeling? How do
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: you guys think of that? I mean, it's a great thing,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: by the way, that people can register same day and vote.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: We love that, but I'm sure it makes it trickier.
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: It does make it trickier, especially because nobody's polling unregistered voters.
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: That's just not, you know, every pollster, they show you
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: likely voters, which are a subset of registered voters, and
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: then they show you registered voters. But we always have
• 47:50
  Speaker 6: wards where there's over 100% voter turnout of registered voters
• 47:53
  Speaker 6: who because there are more people who same day register
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: and vote than there are people who were registered and
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: don't vote. So the electorate will grow. And if you
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: look at Wisconsin voter registration statistics, it looks like the
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: electorate's shrinking until an election comes along and then it
• 48:08
  Speaker 6: jumps up. And that can go either way. In 2020,
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: the same day registration favored Trump heavily. Democrats voted early
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: by mail. They all registered beforehand so they could get
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: their absentee ballots. This time, there's a chance for Democrats
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: to get the jump on this. But there's also lots
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: of years when it's been evenly split in same-day registration, too.
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: But that's part of what uncertainties built into the whole thing.
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: And it's also why the returns to effort in Wisconsin
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: are so high. Because if you're out at a bar
• 48:38
  Speaker 6: talking to everyone there about the importance of voting, even
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: people who've never voted in the state before can wake
• 48:44
  Speaker 6: up the next morning and say, Have a couple of
• 48:48
  Speaker 6: cups of coffee and then bring their proof of residence
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: and their photo ID and register and vote that very day.
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: I will also tell you, I have this vivid memory
• 48:57
  Speaker 6: from high school when a friend of mine, his older
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: sister was a UW-Madison student, and it was a student
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: running for, I think, county board and administration. The friend's
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: older sister had a party and a bunch of people
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: stayed up really late drinking and they woke up with
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: their song over and they didn't vote and the candidate
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: wound up losing by fewer votes than the number of
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: people who had voted. too drunk to vote that day.
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: So the lesson is no matter how you feel, you
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: will get yourself to the polls. You might be the
• 49:28
  Speaker 6: margin of victory right there.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: So if you're going to drink before election night, just
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: set that alarm really loud and put it right next
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: to your head. That is the lesson I get from that.
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 49:37
  Speaker 6: Have a buddy who's responsible for driving you to the polls.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: We're speaking on Thursday. Kamala Harris has three events in
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin today. Tour with Mark Cuban. Obviously, she's going to
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: be in Green Bay. She's in lacrosse. Also, I think
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Tim Walz and Barack Obama are going to be in
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Madison next week. I've had some people ask me, in
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: this political and media environment where everything is nationalized, everyone
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: is polarized, what is the value of campaign stops like
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: these to you guys in terms of moving voters?
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: They're so, so helpful. I cannot say how helpful and
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: how valuable they are. And time is the one thing
• 50:13
  Speaker 6: you can't buy with money and campaign contributions. So when
• 50:17
  Speaker 6: a candidate comes, a bunch of things happen at once.
• 50:20
  Speaker 6: The first thing is that there's a bunch of press
• 50:21
  Speaker 6: about the fact that they're coming. So it gets in
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: the news. The key thing, right, is reaching people who
• 50:25
  Speaker 6: are not paying attention to politics already. And when you
• 50:28
  Speaker 6: are in the local radio news break between the best
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: hits of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s that Kamala Harris
• 50:35
  Speaker 6: is coming to town, people are finding out about that.
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: Then you have the actual event. You have thousands of
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: people show up. They can all be asked to volunteer.
• 50:43
  Speaker 6: They can all be asked to get on the Reach app.
• 50:45
  Speaker 6: They can all be asked to go to wisdoms.org and
• 50:47
  Speaker 6: donate and sign up as volunteers to do door-knocking shifts.
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: So they then can multiply out and go talk to
• 50:53
  Speaker 6: their friends. Then you have the news coverage of the
• 50:55
  Speaker 6: event itself, which, again, will reach a lot of people
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: who are generally avoiding political news, but it is the
• 51:00
  Speaker 6: thing happening in town at that moment and in the
• 51:02
  Speaker 6: state at that moment. It's covered all over the state.
• 51:04
  Speaker 6: And then there's clips from the rally or the event
• 51:07
  Speaker 6: that happened. They go viral on the internet and that
• 51:10
  Speaker 6: are used in ads. So many of the ads you
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: see in Wisconsin right now use footage from events that
• 51:14
  Speaker 6: happened in Wisconsin. So there's this, like, if a campaign's
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: doing it right... a visit from the candidate to a
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: community has a multiplier effect before, during, and after both
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: at the grassroots level and in a kind of air
• 51:26
  Speaker 6: war across the state. And I will tell you, the
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: Harris campaign is using these visits in the right way.
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: It is, you know, this is not Trump rambling for
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: an hour and a half in Madison Square Garden. This
• 51:35
  Speaker 6: is showing up in Green Bay and La Crosse and
• 51:38
  Speaker 6: actually connecting with people, energizing them, and then sending them
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: out as ground troops while also amplifying the most critical moments.
• 51:44
  Speaker 6: So this is gold for us. And I will say,
• 51:47
  Speaker 6: The fact that Harris and Walz are visiting lots of
• 51:49
  Speaker 6: different parts of the state, different places, they get different
• 51:51
  Speaker 6: media markets with different local TV signals, that they're coming
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: back in different kinds of contexts and that they're bringing
• 51:57
  Speaker 6: along President Barack Obama to Madison on the first day
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: of early vote. All those things could give us that
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: final extra edge that Elon Musk, with his gigantic amounts
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: of money and his very weird online presence, He can't
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: match that. That is something that we have and could
• 52:12
  Speaker 6: be our counter to the flood of right-wing money that
• 52:15
  Speaker 6: is hitting the airways all over our state.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: You were talking about the deluge of ads with all
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: the right-wing money. What is the gist of these ads
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: in terms of message? And what has been the best,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: most effective pushback to some of these negative ads?
• 52:29
  Speaker 6: So all the Republican ads in our state just about
• 52:31
  Speaker 6: are hammering on fear. And it's fear of immigrants and
• 52:35
  Speaker 6: immigration tied to crime and trans stuff. And sometimes they
• 52:40
  Speaker 6: tie all three of those together. Sometimes it's pick two.
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: It's like a right-wing rat bag of trying to demonize
• 52:45
  Speaker 6: a group of people and make everyone else afraid of
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: those folks and create an other that strongman Trump says
• 52:50
  Speaker 6: he'll protect you from. And it's an old, tired, vicious playbook,
• 52:57
  Speaker 6: but it can have an effect. And it's being used
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: at lots of levels. It's being used in the Senate
• 53:01
  Speaker 6: race as well. And to counter it, you have to
• 53:04
  Speaker 6: lay out who you are and what you're for, you
• 53:06
  Speaker 6: have to point out why they're making these attacks, which
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: is that they're trying to distract people from the fact
• 53:10
  Speaker 6: that they're trying to rip you off and that they're
• 53:12
  Speaker 6: trying to divide people because they know that if we
• 53:16
  Speaker 6: elect Harris and Walz and we elect Tammy Baldwin, then
• 53:20
  Speaker 6: we'll actually have a government that's on the side of
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: the middle class standing up to special interests and blocking
• 53:24
  Speaker 6: extremists from banning abortion. So you have to be on offense,
• 53:28
  Speaker 6: but also explain why you're under attack and then shift
• 53:31
  Speaker 6: to the ground where you're going on offense and winning.
• 53:34
  Speaker 6: And the thing you don't want to do is kind
• 53:37
  Speaker 6: of get stuck in repeating their lies while you're debunking them.
• 53:41
  Speaker 6: So they're obviously wrong, but getting on the stronger ground
• 53:48
  Speaker 6: and then pushing back and punching back and explaining why
• 53:51
  Speaker 6: they're doing these attacks is a critical piece of this.
• 53:54
  Speaker 6: I think one of the striking things is that Republicans
• 53:57
  Speaker 6: are not even trying to defend against the accusations of
• 54:00
  Speaker 6: abortion demands. They're just on the attack right now. And
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: what that means is that a lot of Republicans who
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: are generally kind of partisan Republicans are coming into the fold.
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: That's why you see the Senate race tightening also is
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: that a lot of the Trump voters who were lukewarm
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: on Eric Hovde when the ads were about Eric Hovde,
• 54:16
  Speaker 6: they're getting on board for kind of like the mega
• 54:19
  Speaker 6: attack game plan. But the Republicans are leaving themselves open
• 54:25
  Speaker 6: for the kind of moderate Republicans who have mixed feelings
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: about the fact that they're they're candidates want to ban
• 54:31
  Speaker 6: abortion nationwide. And a lot of the Democratic ads, we
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: have especially kind of on-offense ads about the economy and
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: the economic vision of Democratic candidates and about this issue
• 54:43
  Speaker 6: of personal freedom, reproductive freedom, and abortion. And the personal
• 54:46
  Speaker 6: testimonials from people who've been directly affected by abortion bans
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: or had complications in their pregnancy and urgently needed care
• 54:52
  Speaker 6: that Republicans would try to ban, those things do move voters.
• 54:56
  Speaker 6: I think they affect every race on the ballot. That's
• 54:58
  Speaker 6: one reason why we're so focused on supporting the down
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: ballot candidates as well. Because I think that if you
• 55:04
  Speaker 6: have an ad from a state legislative candidate that talks
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: about the effect of the abortion ban that Republicans put
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: in or refuse to lift a finger to remove after
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: the Dobbs decision, I think that affects every race on
• 55:14
  Speaker 6: the ballot.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: So two kinds of persuadable voters, one kind that is
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: open to voting for Trump, open to Hovde, open to
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: some Republican candidates. And then there's the person who's open
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: to not voting at all. What are you guys hearing
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: on the doors, on the phones, over text about what
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: issues are driving the race for these persuadable voters and
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: what is getting them off the fence?
• 55:40
  Speaker 6: So it's interesting. The wall of right-wing fear-mongering in the
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: state means that if you're talking to someone who's voted
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: Republican in the past, they're often thinking about the kind
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: of criminal immigrant narrative that Republicans are pushing. And you'll
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: hear that from people. And then they're also thinking about
• 55:59
  Speaker 6: what it would mean in their families if abortion was
• 56:02
  Speaker 6: banned and they or someone that they loved needed access
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: to abortion care. And this is often, you know, it's
• 56:08
  Speaker 6: not people who want a candidate who goes right down
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: the middle of these two issues. It's people who are
• 56:12
  Speaker 6: conflicted across these two things. I think the other piece
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: that you often hear, especially from people who generally are
• 56:18
  Speaker 6: fed up with the system, is frustration around the economy
• 56:22
  Speaker 6: and the feeling of like, who's actually fighting for me?
• 56:24
  Speaker 6: Like I had a non-voting candidate Uber driver who his
• 56:28
  Speaker 6: line to me was like, Republicans care about the rich,
• 56:30
  Speaker 6: Democrats care about the poor, no one cares about the
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: middle class. And I was like, well, I want to
• 56:33
  Speaker 6: ask you to listen to a Kamala Harris speech, my friend,
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: because you will hear someone laying out a vision for
• 56:37
  Speaker 6: the middle class. The folks can buy houses and start
• 56:40
  Speaker 6: businesses and support child care, support their aging parents through Medicare.
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: But it's going to where the voter is that actually
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: makes the difference. And The thing about the abortion bans
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: is that they've reached into people's personal lives. They've reached
• 56:53
  Speaker 6: outside of politics, outside of what's on the news, and
• 56:56
  Speaker 6: into people's most intimate, urgent medical decisions and the moments
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: when they're most vulnerable. And suddenly it's politicians calling the shots.
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: And that is horrifying for people. It's a horrifying thing.
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: It's a horrifying prospect. And it's something that a lot
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: of people in Wisconsin are one or two degrees of
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: separation away from someone who actually experienced it. For 451 days,
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: we had an abortion ban here. And that's that's affecting
• 57:18
  Speaker 6: all these different races that the economic argument and this
• 57:21
  Speaker 6: question around freedom. You know, we have candidates, Democratic candidates
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: in every congressional district. I'm in Kristen Lyerly's district right
• 57:28
  Speaker 6: now in Green Bay. She is a pro-choice OBGYN who's
• 57:31
  Speaker 6: running for Congress and making this absolutely clear as a
• 57:35
  Speaker 6: dividing line in this race in a way that I
• 57:36
  Speaker 6: think energizes voters. You have Rebecca Cook in the third
• 57:39
  Speaker 6: congressional district. running against Eric Hovde. Eric Hovde, by the way,
• 57:43
  Speaker 6: who was on Capitol grounds on January 6th and would
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: be inside the congressional chamber in January 6th, 2025, if
• 57:50
  Speaker 6: he were reelected. But that guy supported total abortion bans.
• 57:53
  Speaker 6: And Rebecca Cook is a young pro-choice woman candidate who
• 57:57
  Speaker 6: grew up on a dairy farm. She's nobody's idea. She's
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: a very kind of centrist, democratic candidate in a purple district,
• 58:03
  Speaker 6: but she is crystal clear that the government should not
• 58:06
  Speaker 6: be overriding people's personal decisions about this. And that combination
• 58:09
  Speaker 6: of economic populism, clarity about choice and reproductive freedom, and
• 58:15
  Speaker 6: the kind of common sense, rejecting extremes, it's a really
• 58:19
  Speaker 6: good fit for the district. And then you have in
• 58:21
  Speaker 6: the first, Peter Barca, who is up against Brian Stile,
• 58:24
  Speaker 6: who supported all these abortion ban bills in Congress. In
• 58:27
  Speaker 6: all these different races, the arguments that the candidates are
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: making in the House races, they echo the candidates' arguments
• 58:34
  Speaker 6: for Tammy Baldwin's Senate race against Eric Hofty, who said
• 58:37
  Speaker 6: he's totally opposed to abortion. And they echo the argument
• 58:40
  Speaker 6: that Harrison Walls make against J.D. Vance, who supported national
• 58:43
  Speaker 6: abortion bans. And Donald Trump wants to punish women. And
• 58:45
  Speaker 6: so there's a surround sound, an echo effect, and also
• 58:49
  Speaker 6: with the state legislative candidates. If that can be what
• 58:52
  Speaker 6: is on voters' minds as they walk into the polling place,
• 58:54
  Speaker 6: someone who's on my side on the economy against special
• 58:56
  Speaker 6: interests and somebody who's on my side for freedom against
• 58:59
  Speaker 6: meddling extremist politicians, Democrats win this election, even if it's close.
• 59:03
  Speaker 6: If people walk into the polling place feeling afraid of
• 59:06
  Speaker 6: a phantom crime wave that's whipping through their communities, you know,
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: driven by these kind of caricatured policies Republicans are telling
• 59:14
  Speaker 6: them Democrats are imposing, then it becomes really hard. And
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: the vote, the fight for what the election is about
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: in a way is existential. It's part of what volunteers
• 59:23
  Speaker 6: can change when they're talking to people at the doors.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Speaking of the doors, You mentioned Elon Musk. I've heard
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: reports that even the Trump folks who are quite confident
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: about winning are less confident in their ground game, which
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: has mostly been outsourced to Elon Musk. I know that Democrats,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: including folks in the Harris campaign, are quite confident in
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: the ground game. I know you're confident in the ground game,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: but what are you seeing in Wisconsin in terms of
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: both sides' ground game?
• 59:49
  Speaker 6: I was in Platteville, Wisconsin yesterday. In western Wisconsin, it's
• 59:54
  Speaker 6: like the southwest corner of the state. And like in
• 59:57
  Speaker 6: every county that I visit, I was asking the volunteers
• 59:59
  Speaker 6: there if they're seeing Republican canvassers when they're out indoors.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: And the answer is a two-letter word that begins with
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 6: N and ends with O. We are out in communities
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 6: all over the state, in every single county, all across
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 6: Wisconsin every week. And every week we hear about maybe
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 6: a couple of places where America PAC canvassers are showing up.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 6: And often they're not even... successfully hanging their door knockers,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 6: their door knocking, you know, door hangers off the doorknobs
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 6: in people's houses. There's been like two instances where I've
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 6: heard about actual conversations people have had with them. I,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 6: you know, I know that this is shocking given his
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: business record, but it might be that he's not going
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 6: to hit his deadlines for getting those door knocks done.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 6: And I love this for the Republican Party. I think
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 6: it's great. I think it's a great example of, you know,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: outsourcing jobs that used to be done by Wisconsinites.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 6: Someone who doesn't believe in union labor and hard work.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 6: And this is their plan. Now, does that guarantee that
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 6: we're going to win? It absolutely does not. But it
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: means that we might be able to work our way
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 6: through to the finish line in this thing. Having one
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: sort of medium of the contest in which I think
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 6: we have a serious advantage means that we need to
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: triple down on that. In general, your weaknesses are not
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 6: actually your strengths. And so what you want to do
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 6: is make the most of your strengths and then shore
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: up your weaknesses. On the Republican side, they've let the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 6: bottom fall out of this thing. You know, we just
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 6: need to run up the score with everything we can
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 6: do to organize and get our friends out to vote.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: And again, I'm just going to hammer wisdoms.org slash volunteer.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: Or if you go to KamalaHarris.com slash volunteer, you can
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: sign up wherever you might be in the country. I
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: know at Vote Save America, you have volunteer links. Folks,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: those phone calls, those door knocks, the relational outreach that
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 6: we're doing friend to friend, these things do matter. And
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: this thing could come down to anything. fewer votes than
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 6: the number of contacts in your phone and your five
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: best friends' phones. That could be the margin of victory
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: in states like Wisconsin, and there are not a lot
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 6: of those states.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: That's a good place to leave it. Everyone, if you're nervous, volunteer.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: And Wisconsin's a great place to do it. You guys
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: could use some help. I will let you go. I
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: know you've got a Kamala Harris event to attend up
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: in Green Bay. And thanks, as always, for joining us.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: And Ben Wickler, good luck out there.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much, John. And folks, do not sleep
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: on our Senate race, the House races, the state legislative races.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 6: We finally have fair maps and the presidential. This is
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 6: every line of the ballot. All systems go. Let's go
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: fight and win.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Dan will be back with
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: a bonus episode on Sunday. Dan, who are you talking
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: to this week?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: This week I talked to Amy Walter, one of the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: smartest people in politics. She is the editor-in-chief and publisher
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: of the Cook Political Report. And we talked about the
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: presidential race, but also the House and Senate races to
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: understand if Democrats have a chance to sweep all three
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: in this election.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: All right. Everyone check it out Sunday. Have a good weekend.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: And we'll be back with another Pods of America on Tuesday. Bye, everyone.
• 1:03:07
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  Speaker 1: is a Cricket Media production. Our producers are David Toledo
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Reid
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• 1:03:42
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  Speaker 1: executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Kirill Pelleviv, and David Toles.