Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / ‘It looked like the devil was in there.’ Killer brutally strangles girlfriend for staying out all night: Police

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‘It looked like the devil was in there.’ Killer brutally strangles girlfriend for staying out all night: Police · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A so called jealous a
0:14
Speaker 1: boyfriend walks into a police station, apparently bragging he murdered
0:21
Speaker 1: his gorgeous young girlfriend because she stayed out overnight. I'm
0:29
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:32
Speaker 1: with us. I'm talking about she looks like a young,
0:37
Speaker 1: beautiful Kim Kardashian. That's what she looks like. She's absolutely
0:42
Speaker 1: stunning and is just twenty one years old. She looks
0:48
Speaker 1: like Kim Kardashian before there was ever a lot of
0:51
Speaker 1: plastic surgery. Youthful, innocent looking, long black hair, beautiful, big
0:58
Speaker 1: brown eyes, with the world in front of her. Again,
1:04
Speaker 1: a young man walks in to a police station, apparently
1:07
Speaker 1: bragging that she got what she deserved because she stayed
1:11
Speaker 1: out overnight. Straight out to Ellen McLaurin, Crime online dot
1:16
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, Ellen, First of all, I want you
1:20
Speaker 1: to listen to our friends at wpix TV. Twenty one
1:23
Speaker 1: year old Indira loved fashion and was always seen dressed up,
1:28
Speaker 1: but that could have cost her her life. This friend
1:30
Speaker 1: and neighbor does not want to be identified, but tells
1:33
Speaker 1: pixe eleven Rivera was beautiful and that her twenty three
1:37
Speaker 1: year old boyfriend was jealous. She says he was no
1:40
Speaker 1: good and Wednesday evening, Rodriguez walked into the forty six
1:44
Speaker 1: precinct and allegedly confessed to murder. He even gave detectives
1:49
Speaker 1: the keys to the couple's apartment here on Nelson Avenue
1:52
Speaker 1: in the Morse Sight section of the Bronx, and details
1:56
Speaker 1: on where to find his girlfriend's body. When police arrived,
2:00
Speaker 1: Rivera was found strangled to death on the bathroom floor.
2:03
Speaker 1: You were hearing our friend Nicole Johnson reporting on what
2:07
Speaker 1: we know so far, Ellen Colauren. It's bad enough that
2:11
Speaker 1: there is a murder number one, but number two to
2:15
Speaker 1: seemingly brag about it to police, that's right, Nancy. He
2:20
Speaker 1: walks into a police precinct on Wednesday, he says, I
2:25
Speaker 1: had a physical fight with my girlfriend. I choked her.
2:28
Speaker 1: She's dead. Then he hands over the keys to their apartment.
2:33
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. It wasn't right away. It was
2:36
Speaker 1: two days later that he kept that poor young woman's
2:41
Speaker 1: body in their apartments. Okay, I'm gonna need a shrink
2:44
Speaker 1: on that, But take a listen to what our friends
2:47
Speaker 1: at NBC for say. Angel Felice Rodriguez may have left
2:51
Speaker 1: here in handcuffs after turning himself into authorities, but he
2:54
Speaker 1: didn't have much to say otherwise. Angel Felice Rodriguez is
2:57
Speaker 1: facing charges including murder and man's laughter in connection to
3:01
Speaker 1: the death of his own girlfriend, whom he shared a
3:03
Speaker 1: home with on Nelson Avenue. That girlfriend identified by police
3:08
Speaker 1: as twenty one year old and Darra Ramirez Rivetta Now.
3:11
Speaker 1: The NYPD says she was found unconscious and unresponsive in
3:15
Speaker 1: her basement apartment around six thirty last night, with trauma
3:18
Speaker 1: to her neck that was so severe she was pronounced
3:21
Speaker 1: dead at the scene. And we spoke to people around
3:24
Speaker 1: her neighborhood who knew her well, very globable, never roll nothing.
3:32
Speaker 1: She was just a good girl, you know, going to work,
3:34
Speaker 1: coming home, she worked all day, came straight home to this.
3:39
Speaker 1: You know, I don't get it to Ashley Wilcot, Jeeve
3:42
Speaker 1: and I'll judge lawyer. You can find her at Ashley
3:45
Speaker 1: Wilcot dot com. Ashley, it's bad enough that there's yet
3:49
Speaker 1: another domestic homicide, but he seemingly is bragging that he
3:53
Speaker 1: did it because she stayed out late. Yeah, you know
3:56
Speaker 1: the fact that he murdered her is one thing, but
3:58
Speaker 1: it also shows you insight into his mental state that
4:02
Speaker 1: he bragged about it. He thinks it's okay. He still
4:06
Speaker 1: thinks she deserved it. He doesn't get you don't get
4:08
Speaker 1: to kill people. He thinks in his mind a sound
4:11
Speaker 1: like I'm no psychologist, but hey, it's okay. She deserved
4:16
Speaker 1: it because she stayed out night all night, so I
4:18
Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong, you know, then really making no
4:22
Speaker 1: bones about it, get just handing over the keys to
4:24
Speaker 1: the cops like they're go ahead. What does he think?
4:27
Speaker 1: It's an all boys club and they're not going to
4:29
Speaker 1: prosecute him because she stayed out all night and she's
4:32
Speaker 1: gotten punished. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics,
4:37
Speaker 1: jacksonvill State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet
4:41
Speaker 1: on Amazon, tell me what we know about her body,
4:45
Speaker 1: and remember we're learning this after she has been lying
4:49
Speaker 1: there for two days, you know, Nancy. One report that
4:52
Speaker 1: I'm reading is stating that one EMT is reported to
4:58
Speaker 1: have said it looked like the devil was in there.
5:01
Speaker 1: And I keep hearing this term extremely violent that's associated
5:05
Speaker 1: with this. We don't know all of the details from
5:07
Speaker 1: the medical examiner yet. But what we do know is
5:10
Speaker 1: that this young girl literally had her throat crushed, and
5:14
Speaker 1: they're saying that it was by manual strangulation. Laying on
5:18
Speaker 1: the floor in the bathroom, and you know, in a
5:21
Speaker 1: very specific area in the house. I don't know if
5:25
Speaker 1: there's a lot of turned over furniture signs of struggle,
5:28
Speaker 1: but he subdued her into the bathroom where he squeezed
5:32
Speaker 1: and literally squeezed the life out of her young body.
5:34
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of actually, I just handed in
5:37
Speaker 1: my rough manuscript. It's over a hundred thousand words, and
5:42
Speaker 1: it's titled will be titled Don't Be a Victim, Finding
5:46
Speaker 1: Back against America's crime Wave, And I noticed Joe Scott
5:50
Speaker 1: Morgan I was looking up advice, which seems very trite
5:55
Speaker 1: when you're talking about a school shooting, but that's what
5:57
Speaker 1: that section was about. And one of the things a
6:01
Speaker 1: lot of experts say is don't go into the bathroom.
6:04
Speaker 1: Don't go into the bathroom because typically there's no way
6:07
Speaker 1: out there. You're sealed off. Like don't go into a
6:11
Speaker 1: conference room, or don't get in a spot like a
6:14
Speaker 1: closet where there's no way out. Less you really have to,
6:18
Speaker 1: and you're gonna think this is crazy, Joe Scott. But
6:21
Speaker 1: especially when I was prosecuting felony crimes, I would have
6:24
Speaker 1: dreams of running into a bathroom and being trapped and
6:29
Speaker 1: then a whatever particular defendant would come in and in
6:33
Speaker 1: the end of the dream, I'd be fighting from my
6:35
Speaker 1: death or I'd look around, I'd see there was no
6:37
Speaker 1: way out, and then turn around and there was the perp,
6:41
Speaker 1: and you know, I'd start fighting and that would be
6:43
Speaker 1: the end of the dream. I had that repeat dream
6:46
Speaker 1: over and over, and now I'm remembering. I hadn't thought
6:50
Speaker 1: about it in years, but now I'm thinking about Indira
6:54
Speaker 1: in that bathroom and the fact that that was the
6:57
Speaker 1: location she may have run to or he cornered her there.
7:01
Speaker 1: But it's like one of the worst spots you can
7:03
Speaker 1: go to, Joe Scott. Yes, it is, because there is
7:06
Speaker 1: no point of exit from these locations. It's a single entry,
7:12
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people I don't know
7:14
Speaker 1: if it's if it's the media that does this. You know,
7:17
Speaker 1: in relative to entertainment and this sort of thing, it's
7:19
Speaker 1: always portrayed as people going into the bathroom to get
7:22
Speaker 1: away from a potential attacker. But what always happens in
7:26
Speaker 1: those cases people locked the door in the movies, and
7:29
Speaker 1: even in the movies, the perpetrator comes through the door.
7:32
Speaker 1: They banged the door and terrorize the individual. Where in
7:35
Speaker 1: the world are you going to go? Plus, it's a
7:37
Speaker 1: very very small place to try to combat someone that's
7:41
Speaker 1: on the attack. Where you're learning right now about the
7:43
Speaker 1: death of Endira is that her neck showed signs of
7:49
Speaker 1: a violent, violent struggle. Her neck was quote traumatized. What
7:54
Speaker 1: does that mean, Joe Scott Morgan. Well, this, you know,
7:57
Speaker 1: in order to have what is described as a manual strangulation, Nancy,
8:02
Speaker 1: this is very up close and personal. People can either
8:06
Speaker 1: be sea clamped with a single hand that's wrapped around
8:09
Speaker 1: the literally the windpipe, or they can be throttled, which
8:13
Speaker 1: is utilizing both hands. If it's a manual strangulation until
8:17
Speaker 1: literally the life is squeezed out of them, you're preventing
8:21
Speaker 1: the flow of blood. First off, from the heart to
8:25
Speaker 1: the brain. The individual becomes a noxic or they lose
8:28
Speaker 1: oxygen to the brain. And also you've got this crushing
8:32
Speaker 1: mechanism that happens with the tiny little muscles that run
8:35
Speaker 1: along the sides of the neck and also the windpipe itself.
8:52
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A family in mourning after
9:04
Speaker 1: police say a man confessed to killing his girlfriend last
9:07
Speaker 1: night inside their basement apartment. That man was charged earlier
9:11
Speaker 1: this morning at the forty sixth ver Sinc. These twelve.
9:14
Speaker 1: The Bronx reporter Lena salve Bank is our Nelson Avenue
9:17
Speaker 1: with the latest. Police sources say they believed twenty one
9:20
Speaker 1: year old India Ramirez Rivera may have been strangled. Investigators
9:24
Speaker 1: say they found the twenty one year old body inside
9:27
Speaker 1: the basement of sixteen twenty eight Nelson Avenue around six
9:30
Speaker 1: thirty Wednesday night after her boyfriend, twenty three year olds
9:34
Speaker 1: angel Estevan Felice Rodriguez and Nid to the police that
9:38
Speaker 1: he had killed Rivera. Police say he is facing charges
9:41
Speaker 1: of murder and manslaughter, but neighbors and friends are still
9:44
Speaker 1: left wondering why, what was the motive behind this active violence.
9:48
Speaker 1: This is something police say they are still looking for
9:50
Speaker 1: the answers too. They say the investigation is still ongoing.
9:54
Speaker 1: It's amazing, stunning, sickening that this man walk s into
10:00
Speaker 1: the police station like with fullest swagger, you know, what
10:04
Speaker 1: I mean, ladies, fullest swagger, throws down his keys to
10:09
Speaker 1: his department and go, yeah, yeah, I killed her. She
10:13
Speaker 1: stayed out late, and I don't like the way she dresses.
10:18
Speaker 1: Stays out late and didn't like the way she dresses.
10:21
Speaker 1: I have been pouring over photos of this young girl, Indira,
10:27
Speaker 1: and she's gorgeous, and she's always dressed like at the
10:31
Speaker 1: height of fashion. I don't understand that you were just
10:36
Speaker 1: hearing our friends Christie Reader telling us what we know
10:43
Speaker 1: about the death of Endeira. Another thing we were learning
10:46
Speaker 1: right now is Joscott Morgan, there may have been blunt
10:50
Speaker 1: forced trauma to her head as well. Now we know
10:54
Speaker 1: that there was strangulation, we're not sure if it was
10:57
Speaker 1: manuel or ligature. Let me go back to that first,
11:00
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to bring in a renowned psychologist
11:03
Speaker 1: joining us from Manhattan, Karen Start, and you can find
11:06
Speaker 1: her at Karen dot com. Joe Scott. How can you
11:11
Speaker 1: tell if it was manual or ligature strangulation and what
11:16
Speaker 1: would the difference be as far as the killer's frame
11:20
Speaker 1: of mind at the time. Okay, Nancy, with a literature strangulation,
11:24
Speaker 1: what we would be looking for or what it called
11:27
Speaker 1: literature furrows, which are these tiny little lines that are
11:31
Speaker 1: creator on the next say that someone is using a
11:34
Speaker 1: belt or a rope in order to strangulate someone, as
11:37
Speaker 1: opposed to clanking their hands around the throat. If an
11:42
Speaker 1: individual is utilizing a ligature, that means that they have
11:46
Speaker 1: something prepped, an item in order to facilitate this. In
11:51
Speaker 1: the mindset of a manual strangulation, this is a reactive event.
11:55
Speaker 1: Many times just rage where they are just seemingly just
11:59
Speaker 1: reaching out a moment breast. J Scott, are you sitting down?
12:04
Speaker 1: I am Karen Stark. Are you sitting down? Yes? I
12:07
Speaker 1: am Ashley's Wilcot. Are you sitting down? Yes? Ma'am Eka
12:12
Speaker 1: are you sitting down? Yes? Okay, and Jackie Howard here
12:16
Speaker 1: in the studio, you better lay down, Okay, I better
12:19
Speaker 1: restrain you. Guys. I'm just getting in more information than
12:23
Speaker 1: not only is there evidence of blunt force trauma strangulation,
12:28
Speaker 1: but vaginal cuts. Okay, let that scene in just a moment.
12:35
Speaker 1: Vaginal cuts cuts to her private parts. This guy, I
12:46
Speaker 1: am telling you, this guy is the devil. I worked
12:50
Speaker 1: for nine years at night volunteering at the Battered Women's Center.
12:55
Speaker 1: Nine years and I would always go home and say, well,
12:59
Speaker 1: you know, I thought i'd heard it all till tonight.
13:03
Speaker 1: I thought i'd seen it all until tonight. Well, right
13:07
Speaker 1: now I'm feeling well, I'm about to break down in tears,
13:09
Speaker 1: Ashley willcot because I really feel like I've seen it all.
13:13
Speaker 1: I'm looking at this young girl who by the way,
13:15
Speaker 1: and this is what I'm going to go to here
13:17
Speaker 1: and stark On was planning to leave the boys. She
13:21
Speaker 1: never got to. She wanted to go back and pack
13:23
Speaker 1: her things and leave because of his jealous tirades, and
13:27
Speaker 1: she has endured not only blunt force trauma strangulation, but
13:32
Speaker 1: cuts to her private parts, most likely with a knife.
13:36
Speaker 1: Ashley helped me. So here's the worst part. In the laptops,
13:39
Speaker 1: He's gonna show this. We don't know at what point
13:42
Speaker 1: he inflicted all those brutal, angry, angry actions to this body.
13:47
Speaker 1: We don't know if it was before she died, after
13:49
Speaker 1: she died. But the point is this, this is not
13:52
Speaker 1: quote unquote just in our field a murder. This is
13:56
Speaker 1: a brutal, brutal violation of a beautiful young lady. Karen
14:03
Speaker 1: Stark I've been saving you, actually, Karen I hardly even
14:11
Speaker 1: know where to start with this, but I'm going to
14:14
Speaker 1: try to plow ahead like I would with a jury.
14:18
Speaker 1: When they're all sitting there in the box, all twelve
14:20
Speaker 1: of them, they're looking at you to put it all
14:22
Speaker 1: together and make sense of everything. But right now I'm
14:26
Speaker 1: looking at photos of her, and she's just beautiful on
14:30
Speaker 1: the outside and apparently beautiful on the inside. Quote a
14:35
Speaker 1: good girl according to all the neighbors and all the relatives.
14:40
Speaker 1: Vaginal cuts, Karen. Let's just start with that rage, Nancy Wage.
14:46
Speaker 1: I mean, if he can't have her, no one could
14:50
Speaker 1: have her, and he's going to destroy that's part of
14:54
Speaker 1: her that makes her a woman, so that nobody can
14:57
Speaker 1: enter her. I mean, I know that's very graphic, but
15:01
Speaker 1: that's the kind of rage that this man felt towards her,
15:06
Speaker 1: so jealous that such a personal death. We've talked about
15:10
Speaker 1: that before, where he wanted to see her die. He's
15:13
Speaker 1: looking at her as the life is seeping out of her.
15:18
Speaker 1: This is a man who just was waiting for her
15:22
Speaker 1: to come back so he could do this, and unfortunately
15:26
Speaker 1: she was quite in the kind of situation that happens
15:29
Speaker 1: with women who are abused, where the more that someone
15:34
Speaker 1: is attacking in and starting up with them, the less
15:37
Speaker 1: they feel good about themselves, and the more they wind
15:41
Speaker 1: up staying in this situation than they have troubleliving. You
15:45
Speaker 1: hear it over and over again. To one news source,
15:50
Speaker 1: he says, quite, I had a physical fight with my girlfriend.
15:53
Speaker 1: I choked her. She's dead, and you know, we talk
15:57
Speaker 1: about it a lot, as she Willcott judge lawyer anchor.
16:02
Speaker 1: You can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. We
16:04
Speaker 1: talk about domestic homicide a lot, but unless you're in it,
16:08
Speaker 1: you don't really get it. The other day, I was
16:11
Speaker 1: researching something online and a woman, a young woman, had
16:17
Speaker 1: pulled an April Fool's hoax on her boyfriend, said, and
16:21
Speaker 1: she'd set up a I guess her cell phone or
16:24
Speaker 1: iPad to video, and she told him that she wanted
16:28
Speaker 1: to break up just to see what he's gonna do.
16:31
Speaker 1: He lit into her and started beating her. She was
16:35
Speaker 1: sitting on a sofa or a day bed or something,
16:38
Speaker 1: and he was pounding on her, and it was very
16:43
Speaker 1: graphic and very upsetting. And I think it's easy for
16:47
Speaker 1: us to talk about domestic homicide and talk about battering
16:52
Speaker 1: in the home, but when you see it, I mean
16:56
Speaker 1: ashe I've told you the story. I remember the first
16:59
Speaker 1: time I had a felony calendar, one hundred and fifty
17:02
Speaker 1: brand new felonies, and I saw a woman. It was
17:06
Speaker 1: an rayment calendar, and I saw a woman walk into
17:09
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I flicked around and saw her and I
17:12
Speaker 1: turned back. Then I looked back at her again. She's
17:14
Speaker 1: on crutch as she was in a cast on one
17:18
Speaker 1: leg from the hip down all the way down on
17:22
Speaker 1: and behind her was her boyfriend. Well, you know what
17:24
Speaker 1: she wanted coming to a rayment. She wasn't called as
17:27
Speaker 1: a witness. That's just when the person who's you know,
17:30
Speaker 1: formally read what they're charged with and they entered guilty
17:33
Speaker 1: or not guilty. If they can't afford a lawyer, we
17:35
Speaker 1: give them a lawyer. She came to try to get
17:38
Speaker 1: me to drop charges, goaded by her boyfriend, who was
17:42
Speaker 1: by the way, the defendant, and I didn't. I didn't
17:47
Speaker 1: know what to do because I didn't have any training
17:49
Speaker 1: in it yet. But I did not drop the charges.
17:52
Speaker 1: And I said, look, it's not her fault. She wants
17:55
Speaker 1: me to drop them. She's begging me to drop them,
17:58
Speaker 1: but I'm not dropping them because you'll go back and
18:00
Speaker 1: you'll do the same thing again. She had a broken leg, Ashley,
18:04
Speaker 1: and I would It's over and over and over again.
18:08
Speaker 1: It's horrible. It's horrible violence in the home. It is
18:12
Speaker 1: and Nancy, I see it on the bench all the time.
18:15
Speaker 1: You have parents come in front of me and one
18:16
Speaker 1: of them is the victim of domestic violence. And people
18:20
Speaker 1: don't understand how violent it is. Number one. Number two,
18:23
Speaker 1: that it mentally is not something you just walk away
18:26
Speaker 1: from it. It is a horrible abuse of a person
18:32
Speaker 1: of another. The other piece of this is the most
18:34
Speaker 1: dangerous time is when they finally choose to live, get
18:37
Speaker 1: the support to actually leave the domestic violence. That's when
18:41
Speaker 1: these crimes happen. That's what this report is. She was
18:43
Speaker 1: going to leave them, and look what happened to her.
18:46
Speaker 1: Polica trying to figure out what led to a woman's
18:48
Speaker 1: death in the Bronx just a few minutes ago. Her
18:50
Speaker 1: twenty three year old boyfriend was walked out of the
18:52
Speaker 1: forty six Precinct station house in handcuffs. Today in New
18:56
Speaker 1: York's Tracy Strands and Fordham Heights with the latest Tracy
18:59
Speaker 1: Angel Felice run Riguez may have left here and handcuffs
19:02
Speaker 1: after turning himself into authorities, but he didn't have much
19:05
Speaker 1: to say otherwise. Angel Police Rodriguez is facing charges including
19:08
Speaker 1: murder and manslaughter in connection to the death of his
19:12
Speaker 1: own girlfriend, whom he shared a home with on Nelson Avenue.
19:15
Speaker 1: That girlfriend, identified by police as twenty one year old
19:19
Speaker 1: and Dara Ramirez Rivetta on the NYPD says she was
19:22
Speaker 1: found unconscious and unresponsive in her basement apartment around six
19:26
Speaker 1: thirty last night, with trauma to her neck that was
19:29
Speaker 1: so severe. She was pronounced dead at the scene, and
19:32
Speaker 1: we spoke to people around her neighborhood who knew her well.
19:35
Speaker 1: Y never roll nothing. She was just a good girl,
19:43
Speaker 1: you know, going to work, coming home, going to work,
19:45
Speaker 1: coming home. She was found dead around six thirty last night,
19:48
Speaker 1: but early this morning, we watched crime scene investigators come
19:51
Speaker 1: out of her apartment with bags of evidence. This hours
19:54
Speaker 1: after law enforcement sources familiar with the case said Ramirez's
19:57
Speaker 1: boyfriend turned himself in again. That twenty three year old
20:01
Speaker 1: will now face a judge sometime today on charges of
20:04
Speaker 1: both murder and manslaughter. The medical examiner will determine exactly
20:09
Speaker 1: what caused that victim's death. You were hearing from our
20:12
Speaker 1: friends at w NBC. That was Darlene Rodriguez talking about
20:17
Speaker 1: a horrific death of a gorgeous young girl, Indira Ramirez,
20:21
Speaker 1: the vaginal cuts. Ellen Colorin. Were getting a lot of
20:24
Speaker 1: conflicting stories. We're getting that she was murdering in the bathroom.
20:28
Speaker 1: We're getting that she was murdered on her bed. We're
20:31
Speaker 1: getting that she was found in the basement. A mishmash
20:36
Speaker 1: of that could be true. But also we were learning
20:39
Speaker 1: that there was blunt force trauma to the head, that
20:42
Speaker 1: there was strangulation. I'm going to circle back to you,
20:45
Speaker 1: Joe Scott on Manuel versus literature strangulation and that she
20:51
Speaker 1: had been cut repeatedly in her private parts. Ashley Wilcot,
20:55
Speaker 1: judge and lawyer. What more do we know? Is it
20:58
Speaker 1: true that she was going back to act to leave,
21:01
Speaker 1: which typically is one of the most violent times, the
21:05
Speaker 1: most volatile times in a relationship, except when you're pregnant.
21:08
Speaker 1: You know, that's the number one leading cause of death
21:10
Speaker 1: and makes pregnant women in America as homicide. But that's
21:15
Speaker 1: another can of worms. Back to this. What more do
21:17
Speaker 1: we know? All right? So part of the facts that
21:19
Speaker 1: I want to bring out in this case Nancy is
21:21
Speaker 1: that allegedly she had gone abroad to have plastic surgery
21:27
Speaker 1: and for her look, she's beautiful. You know, I struggle
21:30
Speaker 1: with I don't think she needs plastic surgery, but that
21:32
Speaker 1: was her choice. She did that, and then she came back.
21:36
Speaker 1: And so some of the facts are that he was
21:38
Speaker 1: even more jealous because of her appearance, and that was
21:43
Speaker 1: part of the reason he committed this crime. Very curious
21:46
Speaker 1: to you, Karen Stark, about the mindset of her being,
21:52
Speaker 1: you know, really so smart and so beautiful. They're not married,
21:57
Speaker 1: she doesn't have to stay in it. It's not like
21:59
Speaker 1: she's daying in it for the sake of the children,
22:01
Speaker 1: which was true in so many domestic homicide cases that
22:04
Speaker 1: I tried, that I investigated, that I tried to help
22:08
Speaker 1: people at the Battered Women's Center. They feel like, well, okay,
22:11
Speaker 1: if I can just get the children through high school
22:13
Speaker 1: or just get them through college, and then I'll leave,
22:16
Speaker 1: And a lot of times it was too late. But
22:19
Speaker 1: here she was not encumbered with that. But the fact
22:22
Speaker 1: that she is and she looks so fresh faced, you know,
22:25
Speaker 1: she looks I'm telling you like Kim Kardashian prior to surgery.
22:29
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm seeing the before shots. But Karen, I mean,
22:31
Speaker 1: this woman has it all. She's young, beautiful, smart, well loved.
22:38
Speaker 1: Why would she go back into this relationship. She's young,
22:43
Speaker 1: she's beautiful, she's smart, and she's quite in a vicious cycle, Nancy.
22:48
Speaker 1: And the cycle is, here's somebody who wooed her, who
22:52
Speaker 1: loved her, supposedly, who won her over, and then he
22:56
Speaker 1: starts to be abusive, and every time she sides, Okay,
23:00
Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of this, he becomes apologetic.
23:04
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, this is usually how it goes, and
23:07
Speaker 1: he pleads with her to stay, and she gives him
23:10
Speaker 1: another chance, and each time, her ego is getting diminished,
23:15
Speaker 1: and she's feeling less good about herself, less worthy because
23:20
Speaker 1: she has stayed. She can't help herself and he's made
23:23
Speaker 1: her feel that way, and soon it becomes almost impossible
23:27
Speaker 1: to leave. And then we have a scenario like this
23:30
Speaker 1: where if he gets winded the fact that she actually
23:34
Speaker 1: is strong enough and brave enough to get out of there,
23:37
Speaker 1: he goes after her. And that's what makes it so
23:41
Speaker 1: vicious and so telling, is that you see it all
23:44
Speaker 1: the time, she just keeps staying and staying because she
23:48
Speaker 1: loses the ability truly to leave you. Now, I find
23:51
Speaker 1: it interesting and concerning. Just got more again. Forensics expert
23:55
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Jo Scott.
23:59
Speaker 1: Why is there's so much conflicting reporting in the autopsy. Well,
24:05
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's the autopsy. It maybe police reports
24:07
Speaker 1: it's her body that badly attack that they can't really
24:11
Speaker 1: tell the cod cause of death. I think that probably
24:14
Speaker 1: what we need to wait on is to have an
24:16
Speaker 1: affirmation from the medical examiner. You've gotten multiple sources, remember
24:22
Speaker 1: I said earlier yet an EMT making a comment publicly
24:26
Speaker 1: where he said that it looked like the devil had
24:28
Speaker 1: been in there. Maybe there's a few of these police
24:32
Speaker 1: officers that have come out and made a comment as well.
24:35
Speaker 1: So this is problematic. You get a lot of cross
24:37
Speaker 1: talk in cases like this. Nancy. We already know that
24:40
Speaker 1: this is an absolutely ghastly scene, So we don't know
24:43
Speaker 1: the true facts until the medical examiner comes out and
24:46
Speaker 1: officially tells us details about what happened to this beautiful
24:50
Speaker 1: young woman, a woman found dead in her home. Right now,
24:54
Speaker 1: we understand that it was a revenge killing because she
24:57
Speaker 1: quote stayed out that night. I want to go to
25:01
Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, and I want to talk about the vaginal
25:05
Speaker 1: cuts to her, to her body, strangled, blunt force trauma
25:10
Speaker 1: to her head, vaginal cuts to her body, and almost
25:13
Speaker 1: as if justification, he tells the cops he didn't like
25:16
Speaker 1: the way she dressed as she stayed out all night,
25:19
Speaker 1: like they were going to side with him. Yeah, blame
25:21
Speaker 1: the victim. I hear this a lot, believe it or not.
25:24
Speaker 1: In court, parties will come before me and blame the victim.
25:27
Speaker 1: It's their fault, it's not my fault. That's exactly what
25:31
Speaker 1: he's doing. And the vaginal cuts are direct evidence that
25:34
Speaker 1: he believes he was right and she was wrong and
25:38
Speaker 1: it was her fault and she stayed out all night.
25:40
Speaker 1: And so listen, here's what I did because of her behavior,
25:44
Speaker 1: because of the way she looks. That's how messed up
25:48
Speaker 1: that he is in his head when he committed this horrible,
25:51
Speaker 1: horrible murder. I'm still not understanding, and I never have
25:54
Speaker 1: understood Ashley. Why with everything going for her? And I
25:58
Speaker 1: said this in a million speeches. Domestic homicide, domestic battery,
26:03
Speaker 1: domestic assault, crosses all boundaries. It doesn't matter if you're
26:07
Speaker 1: rich or if you're wealthy, if you're poor, if your
26:09
Speaker 1: middle class. It doesn't matter if you graduated from sixth
26:12
Speaker 1: grade or have your PhD. You know, we didn't. We
26:15
Speaker 1: just see a female prosecutor murdered on the other side
26:21
Speaker 1: of the country. Buy an X and there she was
26:25
Speaker 1: with her law degree, gorgeous, young, a great degree, the work.
26:31
Speaker 1: None of that matters, Ashley, None of it matters when
26:35
Speaker 1: it comes down to domestic abuse. Now, anybody can be
26:38
Speaker 1: a victim of domestic abuse, and the message to get
26:41
Speaker 1: out there is as hard as it is, as tough
26:44
Speaker 1: as it is. At the very first sign that someone
26:48
Speaker 1: is abusive, reach out. That's where I'm going to encourage everybody.
26:52
Speaker 1: Reach out, talk to someone, get out of that relationship
26:57
Speaker 1: at the very first sign. It's not worth the risk
27:01
Speaker 1: that you are going to be the victim. Crime stories
27:18
Speaker 1: with Anty Grace right now, we're trying to figure out
27:24
Speaker 1: why why And Dara went back to rutal domestic situation.
27:29
Speaker 1: Why is she dead? Why was she killed? Three times?
27:32
Speaker 1: Over blunt force trauma to the head, strangulation, vaginal cuts
27:38
Speaker 1: apparently with a knife. Joining me just got Morgan forensics expert,
27:42
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet, renowned psychologist Karen Start
27:45
Speaker 1: at Karen Start dot com joining us from Manhattan. Ashley
27:49
Speaker 1: Wilcot judge lawyer anchor at Ashley Wilcott dot com. But
27:54
Speaker 1: right now to Ellen klaurin Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Ellen,
27:59
Speaker 1: what more can you tell me about the facts. Well,
28:02
Speaker 1: we know that the suspect was a very, very jealous person,
28:07
Speaker 1: and we also have heard Endara's friends say that she
28:13
Speaker 1: was getting ready to leave him. She was thinking about
28:16
Speaker 1: going back to that apartment, packing up her things and
28:19
Speaker 1: getting out of there. So we don't know if maybe
28:23
Speaker 1: that Monday that she was there that she was killed,
28:26
Speaker 1: was the time that she was going back to get
28:28
Speaker 1: her things. She may have been trying to get out. Yeah,
28:31
Speaker 1: that's my understanding as well. What I don't understand, Karen Starr,
28:36
Speaker 1: is if he's so jealous and so angry at her,
28:39
Speaker 1: why did he want to keep Why did he want
28:41
Speaker 1: to stay together? Why not just let her leave? Well,
28:43
Speaker 1: because Nancy, he's so jealous and so angry because he
28:47
Speaker 1: wants to possess her, He's not going to let her
28:50
Speaker 1: leave because she is his. He's going to damage her
28:54
Speaker 1: so nobody else could go near her. He's going to
28:56
Speaker 1: keep that body. I'm not sure if he kept as
28:59
Speaker 1: using her, but I wouldn't be surprised. I could just
29:02
Speaker 1: picture him, because we're not talking about a normal person.
29:06
Speaker 1: This is somebody who's so narcissistic, who says she's mine,
29:10
Speaker 1: she can't be somebody else's, and still screaming and battering
29:13
Speaker 1: her after she's did That's what I imagine too. Joseph Scott,
29:17
Speaker 1: Morgan and forensics expert jo Scott. I haven't really thought
29:21
Speaker 1: that much about necrophilia, but I had to think about
29:25
Speaker 1: it a lot recently because of Ted Bundy. A little
29:30
Speaker 1: known fact about Bundy. We see him. Many people think
29:33
Speaker 1: he's charismatic and attractive. I don't, but many people do.
29:39
Speaker 1: When I was speaking to doctor Oz about this the
29:42
Speaker 1: other day and I said, Oz, wait a minute, Wait
29:47
Speaker 1: a minute, let's just get it out there. Ted Bundy
29:50
Speaker 1: would go back to the sin of the crime and
29:53
Speaker 1: have relations with the dead body after it was decomposing it,
29:57
Speaker 1: and would only stop doing that until animals had taken
30:02
Speaker 1: parts of the body away. That's how long he would
30:04
Speaker 1: go back and have relations with the body. He would
30:08
Speaker 1: take some of the victims and bathe them, redress them,
30:13
Speaker 1: put makeup and fix their hair. He would sever a
30:17
Speaker 1: lot of their heads and just keep them okay. So
30:21
Speaker 1: that's what I'm talking about by necrophilia. Joe Scott Morgan,
30:26
Speaker 1: he kept India's body in the home for two days.
30:34
Speaker 1: What do you think was going on and that forty
30:37
Speaker 1: eight hour period? That's really hard to say. I don't
30:40
Speaker 1: know if he had for me to say he was
30:43
Speaker 1: amusing a corpse that's what he was doing. Well, if
30:46
Speaker 1: the possibility certainly exists, I think that when we begin
30:49
Speaker 1: to explore the nature of these injuries, you know, we're
30:52
Speaker 1: talking about this vaginal trauma, I'm going to be really
30:55
Speaker 1: interested to see if there is any, if there are
30:57
Speaker 1: any what we refer to as focal areas of him
31:00
Speaker 1: rich in these cuts that they're talking about it, if
31:02
Speaker 1: that's thought like a regular person, in other words, width
31:05
Speaker 1: of accuts. Did she bleed from those cuts? Because if
31:09
Speaker 1: she didn't bleed, indicate they were posting Mortimer after her death. Yeah,
31:14
Speaker 1: and then we have to throw in the term torture
31:16
Speaker 1: at that point in Tom Nancy and I hate to
31:18
Speaker 1: bring that up as horrible as necrophilia is. You begin
31:23
Speaker 1: to talk about torture, He was he torturing this young
31:26
Speaker 1: girl prior to her death? And again this goes to tomline,
31:30
Speaker 1: how long had she in fact been dead. I'm hoping
31:33
Speaker 1: that the investigators at the scene took a real close
31:36
Speaker 1: look at this to see if they're what the level
31:38
Speaker 1: of changes were at the scene. And then couple days now,
31:42
Speaker 1: now you're dumming too far down for me when you
31:44
Speaker 1: say look for changes, I'm interpreting what you mean, Joseph
31:49
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan to mean how long had she been decomposing?
31:53
Speaker 1: How long has she been lying there? And I just
31:54
Speaker 1: want to throw another wrench in the works for us
31:57
Speaker 1: to all mull because it was she was found face up.
32:01
Speaker 1: In other words, if she were found on the bed,
32:04
Speaker 1: she was face up so that she would have been
32:07
Speaker 1: looking at the boyfriend. Now, another thing I'm curious about
32:11
Speaker 1: jo Scott is if she was clothed or unclothed, because
32:15
Speaker 1: if she were clothed, that means that the vaginal cutting
32:19
Speaker 1: had taken place and then he dressed her, which is
32:24
Speaker 1: another creepy fact to put in front of a jury
32:29
Speaker 1: because it's true, but goes to his frame of mind.
32:32
Speaker 1: Not well, where were you Joe Scott Morgan? Oh, I
32:34
Speaker 1: was accusing you of dummying down too far down changes?
32:37
Speaker 1: What changes? Well, we would be talking about changes like
32:41
Speaker 1: the stiffness in the body rider mortis, and you mentioned
32:45
Speaker 1: if she was faced up or not it was postmortum
32:49
Speaker 1: lavidity or the settling of the blood. Where was it?
32:52
Speaker 1: And this goes to another thing. You talked about these
32:54
Speaker 1: individuals in the past that had done these things to
32:58
Speaker 1: the deceased. Was he posing the body in anyway? Was
33:02
Speaker 1: he manipulating her body moving around? And some of those
33:05
Speaker 1: changes that we talked about post mortem can be misinterpreted
33:09
Speaker 1: if an individual is in fact posing the body postmortem.
33:12
Speaker 1: There's a lot of information that's going to come out
33:15
Speaker 1: through the medical examiner. At this point in Tom, I
33:17
Speaker 1: think that it's best if we wait and see what
33:19
Speaker 1: they have to see. Well, when you say posing the body,
33:22
Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a moment. Actually will caught.
33:24
Speaker 1: I want to come back to you now that we
33:26
Speaker 1: are talking about the necrophilia aspect of what happened to India.
33:30
Speaker 1: Another thing for her family to endure to think that
33:33
Speaker 1: she was abused postmortem after death well, I think I'm
33:39
Speaker 1: good my opinion, as she was. And here's why I remember, Nancy,
33:42
Speaker 1: he waited two days, two days before he reported that
33:46
Speaker 1: he did this two days. Why do you keep a
33:49
Speaker 1: body that you have killed in your own house and
33:54
Speaker 1: reports are conflicting, but allegedly on the bed, face up
33:59
Speaker 1: for two days. There's no good that's going to come
34:02
Speaker 1: out of that. So I'm very fearful as to what
34:04
Speaker 1: he did before killing her, but also to her body
34:08
Speaker 1: after killing her. I mean, when you think it through,
34:11
Speaker 1: Karen Start, I've got to come to you. You're the
34:13
Speaker 1: shrink with me. Karen Start, renowned psychologist at Karen Start
34:17
Speaker 1: dot com, joining us from Manhattan. Karen, what is what
34:23
Speaker 1: does it mean to be a necrophiliac? Why the attraction
34:29
Speaker 1: to a dead body, particularly one the body of someone
34:33
Speaker 1: you loved or you claimed you loved Psychologically, Nancy, that
34:37
Speaker 1: is somebody who really does get up on making love
34:43
Speaker 1: to someone who's dead, having sex with a dead body
34:46
Speaker 1: that turns him on. It's not as exciting to have
34:51
Speaker 1: someone who's alive. It's the same as being turned on
34:54
Speaker 1: by watching the life go out of someone. He enjoys this.
35:00
Speaker 1: That's part of why he has no conscience. He goes
35:04
Speaker 1: back to Ted Bundy story is such a good example
35:07
Speaker 1: of that, where he's still getting excited every time he
35:10
Speaker 1: visits the scene. He takes little tokens and when he
35:14
Speaker 1: looked at those tokens, that gets him off. All of
35:17
Speaker 1: these things have to do with his sexuality, which is perverted.
35:21
Speaker 1: It's very telling. I think whether she was dressed or undressed,
35:27
Speaker 1: because she had vaginal cuts, clearly she had to be
35:30
Speaker 1: undressed for that. But then if she were redressed by
35:33
Speaker 1: the time the cops found her body, and that means
35:36
Speaker 1: that he was abusing the corpse and manipulating it in
35:40
Speaker 1: some way, at the very very least staging. This is
35:44
Speaker 1: what I know. I know that that jurisdiction naing it,
35:48
Speaker 1: and that jurisdiction now she willcott. You can kill as
35:50
Speaker 1: many people as you want to, and you're not going
35:53
Speaker 1: to get the death penalty. Max. He's going to get life.
35:56
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, that is the way. There is no
35:58
Speaker 1: death penalty, So you're right, Max, he's going to get life.
36:00
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. To me, he needs to be
36:04
Speaker 1: charged with each and every crime he committed murders. Not enough,
36:08
Speaker 1: not enough, and so the autopsy will show so they
36:11
Speaker 1: know what charges are appropriate. Whether he did these things,
36:15
Speaker 1: the brutal, brutal cuts to the vaginal area before she died,
36:21
Speaker 1: after she died, what he did to a deceased body,
36:25
Speaker 1: all of these things are really important so they can
36:29
Speaker 1: charge him with every single crime that he committed. We
36:32
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds for Indira Ramaz rivera Nancy Grace
36:39
Speaker 1: crime story, signing off goodbye friend,