Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 316 - Stolen History W/ John Koerner

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 316 - Stolen History W/ John Koerner · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Can you guys hear me?
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: We can?
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Okay? Good, Remember like Bob Clark and Doug Campbell.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Rob Clark, Job Bordelli watching debate.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: I'm so tired of people saying, oh, did you watch
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: a debate?
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  Speaker 4: You know what you could debate, Dude, you could debate
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: geez nuts hot gott it. Section one oh seven of
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  Speaker 4: the Fair Use Act of nineteen seventy six provides protection
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  Speaker 4: to use copyrighted material for research, analysis, education, and commentary purposes.
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  Speaker 4: We hear at Loose Moose Productions reserve that right now.
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  Speaker 4: On with the show. Here's Joe b and the Triple
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: b Hey Andrew Deane House things in Texas.
• 0:51
  Speaker 5: Everything is going to hail down here in Dude, jes.
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  Speaker 3: Yo Jully and then trumple Me Mame and Jumbley and
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  Speaker 3: Joey Drop John Game, Joe Trumble and Joey.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Joey and Jim Wem and Joby and.
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  Speaker 2: Joey rop Cocky, Joe Rad, I'm.
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  Speaker 6: Jam Jack.
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  Speaker 2: And you we go, And ladies and gentlemen, here we go, Yes,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: here we go.
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  Speaker 6: We're off to a good start again. This week we
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  Speaker 6: have with us our guest this evening, author and professor
• 1:52
  Speaker 6: John Kerner, Welcome to the show. John.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, thanks for having me. Like the picture you
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: guys going with the cannon there, that's pretty cool. I
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: like that one that's at Fort Georgia and Ontario. By
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  Speaker 1: the way, that was a fun place to do. Visit
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  Speaker 1: ever get a chance to go up there.
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  Speaker 6: Awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 6: I googled you and I found a couple of pictures,
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  Speaker 6: but I thought that was the coolest one. Anything with
• 2:13
  Speaker 6: a gun is always cooler than anything, right.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, that's what I got my slung glasses on,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm looking pretty cool. So I was like, that's
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  Speaker 1: a nice shot. Thanks for picking that out for me
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  Speaker 1: like that.
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  Speaker 6: Thanks, yeah, and no problem. Thanks for hanging out with us.
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: I think you reached out to me a little bit
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  Speaker 6: ago and you had this book coming out. It is Cold,
• 2:32
  Speaker 6: The Four Guns, The Stolen History of the Assassinated Presidents,
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  Speaker 6: And if you could, John, just let everybody know about
• 2:40
  Speaker 6: yourself and what spurned you to write this book.
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  Speaker 1: Well maybe its history teacher here in Buffalo past about
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: twenty years or so, and when I teach history, I
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  Speaker 1: always try to focus on artifacts. I think textbooks are
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you know, they're kind of boring. I guess you could say,
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  Speaker 1: but artifacts, I think a good worder to kind of
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  Speaker 1: focus the actual way people. You know, guns are I
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  Speaker 1: think important because these four guns especially, they change history
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  Speaker 1: and my personal story just quickly. How it got this
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  Speaker 1: idea of doing the book, my grandfather he served in
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  Speaker 1: World War Two and he was a hero from the war.
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  Speaker 1: He got a silver Star for mind sweeping position, pretty
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  Speaker 1: cool stuff. So he brought home with him his training rifle, binoculars,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: and all kinds of other things from the war. And
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  Speaker 1: I was like, well, that kind of inspired me to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: write a book about what I thought would be like
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  Speaker 1: the most important guns in history that would change the
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  Speaker 1: course of our country's history. And I said, what would
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  Speaker 1: they be, Well, I guess would be you know, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley,
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  Speaker 1: and Kennedy. And the book itself it talks about like
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  Speaker 1: what the guns are, how the assassins acquired them, also
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  Speaker 1: like how history would have been different if they survived
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: the assassinations. And also and another way to look at
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  Speaker 1: this too, with the Secret Service in many ways, every
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  Speaker 1: single time they pretty much messed up and could have
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  Speaker 1: changed history just by doing just basic protection for a president.
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  Speaker 1: So that's essentially what the book is about in like
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  Speaker 1: a like a thumbnail sketch.
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  Speaker 6: Well, I think like when when Abraham Lincoln was president,
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  Speaker 6: I mean this was, you know, so far long ago.
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  Speaker 6: Did he really even have a secret service protecting him
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  Speaker 6: at that time? I always hear these stories about, you
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  Speaker 6: know that he would just walk around and you know,
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  Speaker 6: without protection all the time, But I'm not one hundred
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  Speaker 6: percent sure.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was more informal.
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  Speaker 3: Then.
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  Speaker 1: He had pick detectors that guarded him, and he had
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  Speaker 1: agents that were that night, John Parker was one that
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  Speaker 1: was assigned to protect Lincoln, and Parker decides that he
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  Speaker 1: would rather go drinking and the bar next door and
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  Speaker 1: watch the show. And Lincoln was completely unprotected at the
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  Speaker 1: time of the assassination. So you're ready. It was more informal,
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  Speaker 1: but there was an agent that was supposed to guard him,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: but he completely did not do his job and let
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  Speaker 1: the booth completely open for booth to go in and shoot.
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  Speaker 6: And yeah, that, uh, that, that whole thing still amazes
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  Speaker 6: me that the whole story. You know, this this pretty
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  Speaker 6: pretty famous actor for the time would actually do this
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  Speaker 6: and in the middle of a performance. You know, it's
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  Speaker 6: like it's unheard of. You know for something like that
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  Speaker 6: to happen now, But if you could just walk us
• 5:29
  Speaker 6: through the first gun and uh, Joe, if you got
• 5:34
  Speaker 6: that picture, pop it up, show everybody interesting.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, Hi, Hi John.
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: I didn't get a chance to say hi, and we
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: didn't really get a chance to talk uh before the show.
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  Speaker 2: But I have read the whole book and I have
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: some pointing questions on each chapter. I thought it was
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  Speaker 2: great and I was really intrigued.
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  Speaker 5: I really knew nothing, nothing about Garfield and McKinley. I
• 6:00
  Speaker 5: knew a little bit about the Lincoln assassination, but not much.
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  Speaker 2: But wow, is it intriguing.
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  Speaker 5: And I think this is the picture from the Ford
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: Theaters exhibit, right, don't they do?
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  Speaker 2: They have it?
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: I think in your book they have it like the
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  Speaker 5: basement kind of in the corner. And I believe on
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  Speaker 5: the handle is John Wills Booth's name is it is
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  Speaker 5: on there right?
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  Speaker 2: And like a little yes whatever, it's.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually took that picture. So yeah, a couple
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: of things like this theater and you take the tour
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  Speaker 1: and I've done this, I guess maybe three or four times.
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  Speaker 1: There are two things they're not going to tell you
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  Speaker 1: about what happened that night did I talk about in
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: the book. So one thing is that that night Booth
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: was actually carrying two guns with him one they both
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: were derringers, And the reason he did this was because
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: it's a single shot, as you can see, and it
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: could misfire. So if he had the other gun with him,
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  Speaker 1: there's a backup gun he can fire at the President
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  Speaker 1: in case the gun didn't work. So what ends up happening.
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  Speaker 1: He shoots Lincoln, He drops that gun in the box.
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  Speaker 1: He then stabs Major Rathun with the with you with
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  Speaker 1: a knife, leaps off of the stage, and then yells
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  Speaker 1: into the crowd six temper Terenus, drops the other gun
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  Speaker 1: on the stage and goes out the back door. So
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: they don't even tell you this. We take the tour
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  Speaker 1: at Fort's Theater. They had two guns there that night,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't until much later they actually found out
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  Speaker 1: which gun was the one that actually shot Lincoln. The
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  Speaker 1: first one that he drops in the theater up in
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  Speaker 1: the booth is the one he used. The other one
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  Speaker 1: he didn't, of course use, was found later on by
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: a stage hand because it was still loaded. That one
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  Speaker 1: is actually as we are not museum in Saint Augustine, Florida,
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  Speaker 1: and they have it there in that museum, So they
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: don't even tell you that he was actually gotn with
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  Speaker 1: two different guns there that night. One was dropped in
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  Speaker 1: the box that the one was dropped on the stage,
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  Speaker 1: and the one that they have you know, they're in
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  Speaker 1: the museum. You can actually you know, can you can
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  Speaker 1: see on display.
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  Speaker 6: And the other thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the other thing that it's a bit more of
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  Speaker 1: a longer story, but I can get into this a
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  Speaker 1: little bit, is they don't ever tell you where or
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  Speaker 1: when Booth bought the guns. And I've read every single
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  Speaker 1: book that has written about the Booth, you know, assassination
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  Speaker 1: and Lincoln, and the basic question of when and where
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  Speaker 1: did you buy these guns has never been answered. So
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: my book goes into this pay we proba read the
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  Speaker 1: section about this. I just kind of really summarize what
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  Speaker 1: I found out. So you go up to the point
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  Speaker 1: where it's it's January eighteen sixty five, and he has
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  Speaker 1: bought he's bought some guns to the's applied to kidnap
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  Speaker 1: Lincoln he's involved with. He bought a number of different guns.
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  Speaker 1: You actually can see someone that forced to get actually
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  Speaker 1: behind that display case. The darrendur is on one side
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  Speaker 1: of the guns are on the other side, So we
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  Speaker 1: know that up until then no darrenders. Then he bought.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So once we get to February of eighteen sixty five,
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  Speaker 1: it's close to the assassination, he there determined he's going
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  Speaker 1: to shoot the presidents. He needs the guns. The question
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  Speaker 1: is when when would he ever get it? Right, goes
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  Speaker 1: to Philadelphia to the family almost by right, exactly right, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because his sister Asia lives there, and we know you
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  Speaker 1: saw on the put the gun up a second, if
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: I'm to put the picture up again, you can see
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  Speaker 1: on the gun it says Philadelphia on the gun. So
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  Speaker 1: you he bought the guns in Philadelphia, and we know
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  Speaker 1: that the guns we bought in parents. And the question
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: is when was the last name was in Philadelphia before
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  Speaker 1: the assassination. It was February tenth, eleventh, and twelfth, eighteen
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  Speaker 1: sixty five, And we know that the next day he
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: goes in New York City. His brother's right that he's
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: in a great mood. He's very happy. The weekend he
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: was actually doing some things, wrapped some things up with
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: his family. He gave his sisters some stock certificates, wrote
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: two letters to the media, one to his mother. Wanted
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  Speaker 1: the media to say he was what he was doing.
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  Speaker 1: He was saying bye to his family. That weekend, he
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: was wrapping some things up. So I think that weekend
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  Speaker 1: he would have probably bought the guns. And the final
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: thing that kind of I think seals the deal is
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  Speaker 1: that February twelfth was like in study sixth birthday, so
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  Speaker 1: I think he wanted to do this symbolica, to buy
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  Speaker 1: the gun on his birthday. He loved symbolism, yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: he loved that kind of thing. I think that weekend
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: on the twelfth, he bought the guns in Philadelphia and
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: he goes to shoot the president, you know, in April.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Jeff and I've also mentioned in the book that laugh
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  Speaker 1: up this stuff. He thought it was very funny. But
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: right down the street from Asia's house he is is
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a gun dealership. An owner is Abraham Peerman, who was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: the name of the gun dealer. So I think it
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: would have loved him buy a gun Lincoln's birthday with
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: a gun owner named Abraham Pierman, and he laughed all
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: the way home back to Asia's house. So I think
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: my best guess is that's when he bought the guns
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  Speaker 1: February twelfth, Lincoln's fifty sixth birthday in Philadelphia, at that
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: shop near Asia's house. And that's I think that's my
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that's my best guess in terms of when he he
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: bought the guns.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: I read that part and it was very intriguing. But
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: I actually had a question because I think you mentioned
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: so these Derrengers were so small that they were sold
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: in pairs, right, So the one I just showed what
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: have in theory been sold as two, right because they
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: were so small, maybe if one misfired. But the one
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: we just showed, which is in the Ford Museum, that
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: was found in the Presidential suite where Lincoln was killed
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: was a forty four caliber, And the one that is
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: at the Ripley's place, I think Gifford was the who worked,
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: am I perhessing that right? Gifford, who worked at the
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: Ford Theater, who found the gun somewhere near the stage
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  Speaker 5: the next day, but didn't really was kind of scared
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  Speaker 5: to come out with it because as a fear he
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: would be considered a co conspirator, so kind of kept it.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: And you go through the whole chain of evidence and
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: it's very interesting. But what I want to ask is
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: was it normal for two guns that were sold in
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: a pair to be different calibers.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think what was happening was a lot of
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: different Darringers that they were producing, and when Booth bought
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the guns, he probably looked at them, maybe ten inspired them,
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  Speaker 1: and took the gun that was more liable with a
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: better caliber and used that one to shoot the president.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: I think that was why he would have used the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: other one and not that one. And I think when
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: they're producing the Darringers, they wanted to get them because
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: there's such a single shot weapon. They felt that if
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you bought too, it would be in case one misfire.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Is if you want to buy the other gun just
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: in case you have a backup gun. I guess it's important. Yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I think that would be the way they would would
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: have done that. Yeah.
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: Or if you needed to shoot someone like Major Rathbone
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: right who was who was in the suite with with Lincoln,
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: or like you said, to fight his way out, possibly,
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: of course.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he had. Yeah, he needed. The thing
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: is with thinking about this, like if Agent Parker was
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: doing his job, he would have you know, the way
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: it would have I think, would have went down. If
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the agent was there, he would have brought Lincoln, brought
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Booth into the box like it would have probably stood
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: up to great Booth and would at least when we
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: got shot in the chest at the head shot, it
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: would have been different. He would have be seeing the gun.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: So without Agent Parker, there there's no chance that to
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: south the assassination. So he probably would have introduced Booth,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: brought him into the box, saw the gun. Maybe it
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: would have changed the whole dynamic of what happened. And
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: he had two guns and one to shoot Secret Service agent,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: one to shoot Lincoln. But he was prepared for those
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: potent those I guess contingency plans. But they didn't tell
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: you that forth. They never even tell he had two guns,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: whether he bought the guns, no idea, They have no
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: idea where those things happened that they happened. So now
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: you go with fourth you can be much smarter now
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: and read my book.
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: And uh, I just wanted to say uh oh to
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: pall up on Rob's questions.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: So yeah, uh don Walks Booth.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Can you give like an analogy of how famous he
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: was back then?
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: Was it like I've heard like a Leonardo DiCaprio like,
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: like what Brad Pitt like the most one of the
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: top level actors, right, And of course they were actors
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: on the screen, they were in plays.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Is that correct or not correct?
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's definitely correct. He had He started off one
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: of his major acting curiss in Albany. In fact, it's
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: kind of interesting I started the book off this way
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: where it's in February of eighteen sixty one, and linking
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: his visiting Albany as President elects and there is John
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Wilk's booth in the crowd watching him coming down the
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: street his acting in Albany that year, and Rathbone is
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: there too. His wife is obviously in the crowd. It's
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: very unusual with all these men who meet each other
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: in fourth they're all there in the crowd in eighteen
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: sixty one. He also goes He acts in Philadelphia for
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a number of years and he always gets great review.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: He's actually comes to acting. Family brother Junius was an actor,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: so he has a lot of background as an actor.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Think about his acting career. By the way, he also
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: was agent the Comparent Secret Service, so he was able
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: to use it as a cover to go different places
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: and get reports back to the governments and not being plot.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: He took the garden so it was like a cover
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: store he could use for his acting. Create I also
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: involved with secret plots of condet Lincoln and eventually kill him.
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and sorry, Rob, I'm just I want to follow up.
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: So that's one of the most interesting things I learned
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: on the Lincoln chapter was that John Wills Booth was
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: part of the Confederate Secret Service the CSS. And it's
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: not a secret services as we would think about it today.
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: I think it's more like a covert operating like CIA
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: type of thing. Right, he was traveling he used like
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: you said, he uses actor a profession as a cover
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: to travel Canada, where he met with British officers I
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: believe you mentioned and had a lot of support from
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: that network.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, he definitely did. I mean, you have this
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: one thing about Booth that's interesting. He's so charismatic. Every
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: women fall in love with him and they just do
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: what ever he wants and try to stab him to death.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: He copt the counter down in Albany and then he's
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: got this action as an actor. He does go to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Saint Lawrence Hotel, meets some agents and the British governments.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: He also has this kidnapping plot to kill Lincoln. The
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: kidnapp Lincoln in eighteen sixty four doesn't Lincoln never shows
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: up on the route. It would have got him if
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: he showed up. But yeah, it's all link back to
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the government of the Confederacy. When we can prove this
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: is that Ever he leaves the assassination scene at Forrest Theater,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: he goes down and every step of the way he's
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: meeting with other ages of the This secret service seet
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: him back to safety in the Richmond killing Samuel Mudd,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: who resets his leg. So it does seem like the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: whole plan was planned as lessst effort to revive the war,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: effort to save the Confederacy. Part of the assassin's actually
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: part of the plot to do that.
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: Now's the same thing as like Knights of the Golden Circle.
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: Is this something totally different?
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Well, this was formed pretty early on in the war,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and the idea was initially to run information back and
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: forth between Canada and to trying to get the British
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: into the war as allies, and then later on to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: run like money and guns and information from the Northern
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: States from sympathizes from the North. Then it worked into
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: this other agency that was meant just to kill Lincoln
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: and kidnap him. So it was all traced back to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Jefferson Davis. And one thing that ends up taking place
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: that does change this dhlvren rate happens in eighteen sixty
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: four plot to kill Jeverson Davis and they say we're
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: gonna kill our our president. We're gonna kill you too,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: So that happens. Lincoln Riis is that dog Gren raid
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: And after that they say, well, you're gonna kill o us,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: We're gonna kill you do. So there's a lot of
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: retribution anger in both sides is tied up in all
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: this these different things.
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: And like was with many of these presidential assassinations and
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: even other assassinations, there's always a conspiracy angle involved somehow,
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: you know, And uh, I think the big one is,
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: you know, what are your feelings on did Booth die
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: that day at the at the farm or was or
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: was he able to escape somehow and going to live
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: a nice long life.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Have you read some a little bit about this, because
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: one thing that the person who shoots him doesn't identify
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: him completely, doesn't see him directly, so it's possible that
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: he did escape, but I think he What do you
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: have you read more about this? Do you have an
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: opinion on it?
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: I've just you know, heard like different things. I know,
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: what was that one show that you've been on? It
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: was Brad Meltzer's show. What's what was that show called?
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: It's Very good? The names escaping me right now?
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I forgot too.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 20:28
  Speaker 6: I know that in the description of this video, uh,
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: because I think it was part of your bio, but
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: I can't see that right now. But anyway, I think
• 20:41
  Speaker 6: he devoted one of his episodes to I think the
• 20:44
  Speaker 6: family was wanting to exhume his grave and do like
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: DNA testing once and for all, kind of figure out
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: if it was really boosting the grave or if he
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: had you know, you know, you hear you hear this stuff,
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: you know, like like, well you've even yeah, you've heard
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: of with Oswald too. But people like a lot of
• 21:08
  Speaker 6: these Western gunfighter types like Jesse James and and and
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: uh what was that one kid, Billy the kid Uh
• 21:20
  Speaker 6: that they escaped death and went on to live long
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: lives and and people have claimed to be them later
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: on in life. And they've got some kind of proof. Uh,
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: whether or not it's all believable or not, I don't know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: but I you know, I just I just heard that
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: possibly the same thing had happened with Booth, given the
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: network of things that he had going on, and that
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: you know, of course, forensics aren't what they are. They
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: forensics aren't or weren't back then, what they are now.
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: If I can get that out of my mouth correctly.
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: As far the being able to identify people, you know,
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: without with certainty, you know, this is like pre pretty
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: fingerprints even and not a lot of photos existed of people.
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: But of course, like with him being so famous, it
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: would be hard to unless you had identical or a
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: doppel gang or something to be able to pull something
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: like that office with a guy that famous. But yeah,
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: I just didn't know your thoughts on that.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Well. One thing that I can mention is he did
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: have a lot of help. People could have planned for
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: this because there was many people that were waiting for
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: him on the escape route.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: So if.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: There are people involved with the plot to get him
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: out of you know, harm's way, I think it was
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: possible that if they had this plan, he did have
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: some help they could have escaped. One thing about Oswald too,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: mentioned the idea about Oswald being exhumed. There's an interesting
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: story about his excamation. So the when they took his
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: body out of the grave, this was about, I think
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: maybe twenty years later. The person who did the autopsy,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: he looked at Oswald's brain and he said, this is
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: not the same brain because the person that he did
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the autopsy for he did a creniotomy and the person
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in the grave has intact skull. She said, this is
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: not the same person he did the autopsy with because
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: he did it himself and he took the skull cap
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: off and this person whoever was in the grave was
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: not the same body. So isn't that crazy? That's right
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: from the man did the autopsy, he said, this isn't
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: the same one doesn't know who he was.
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I think i've I haven't really
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: dove that deep into the Oswald excammation. Maybe that's something
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: we need to do in the future.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Jo, Yeah, but check out.
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah. I know they tried to explain it away as
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: it being just damage to the curd over time and
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: a crappy vault and you know, in the coffin, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: I think they said, you know, his his maybe his
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: lower jaw had been put onto a different skull so
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: his teeth would match, you know. And I think he
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: had surgery somewhere on the back of his back, of
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: his skull or back behind his ear when he was younger,
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: and then that wasn't present. So yeah, that might be
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: a good idea for a future show. Joe, Yeah, for sure.
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And before we move on from Lincoln, I had
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: one more question. So I think one of the things
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: you had said, so the CSS, which of course the
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: Confederate Secret Service, what answered only or directly to Jefferson Davis.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: That's right, true, So you.
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: Kind of like indicated that the plot to kidnap can
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: and then later kill him actually came from the highest
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: levels of the Confederate government, which of course would fit
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: the definition of Lincoln, that Kennedy Lincoln. Yeah.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't kidnap Kennedy.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: H Yeah. I'll get confused once or twice more.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sure their lives similarities, but that's not one of them.
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they say, you know, Kennedy was killed in the
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: Lincoln Lincoln, you know, in a Ford theater, you know, Yeah, yeah,
• 25:36
  Speaker 6: the secretary thing and yeah, Johnston and yeah.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: So then the next go ahead, Joe, I was just
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: going to do the segue there.
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: So the next segment, of course, goes into uh, President Garfield,
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: who was a Civil War hero and was shot and
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: later died, although I didn't realize as it was a
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: couple of months after he was shot. Bye, Charles, I'm
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: going to get this wrong. Gutal gutel Good.
• 26:08
  Speaker 6: Tell Charles Guitel, why would anybody want to shoot President Garfield?
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Well, why would I want to do this? So Garfield
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: was just saying he was just Civil War hero and
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: just an amazing president would have been anyway. So Charles
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Guitel was this The official version of events is that
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: he's this deranged office seeker that attempts several times to
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: get a job in the White House, gets disillusioned, and
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: then ends up killing the President. He shoots him on
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: July second of eighteen eighty one. But I did put
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: this in the book, that there is this unusual thing
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: that takes place about three days before the assassination where
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: a visitor to the President goes to the White House
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and he leaves the White House and he tells the
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: agent guarding the White House to watch out because someone
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: wants to kill the president, and just beyond aware that
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: there is a plot afoot. He's doing a lot of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: unusual things, a lot of things to change things, so
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: be aware there's a plot of foot and three days
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: later is of course sassinated guys. Of course later on
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: in September, but that little story there was shared, and
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I put this in my book too, and just to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: kind of indicate that, like he was saying, who would
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to kill this president, he's making some changes. He
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: was trying to heal the Republican Party at the time. Uh,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and there he was trying to be a leader for
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: civil rights too and bring back reconstruction, and he was
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: doing a lot of important things that were never really
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: had been done at that point in time. He would
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: probably would have been a really great leader for our country.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But sadly he gets a shot on July second, eighteen
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: eighty one. I'm gonna mention an interesting thing about this
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: assassination and McKinley won two Both of the presidents could
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: have survived this if the assassin ordered voaded the gun differently,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: so the first shot misses Garfield completely. The gun miss
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: fires and then the second shot hits him and kills him.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: And later on, after they confiscate the gun, the gun
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: is given to This is my favorite name, gw mckel fresh.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: That's the guy's name right out of old school. So
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: that's a detective's name. Sorry I shouldn't laugh, but gw mckelfresh.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: He has the gun and he says, he notices that,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: you know, the first bullet missed. So he gives a
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: gun to the US Army. This for British Bulldog. It's
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: got final chamber. Yeah, there he goes, that's it. Yeah,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: so it's got.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Didn't have an ivory handle as well, I believe, right.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Army gets the gun. Mikael Fresh says,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: do some testing on it, and they find out that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the rest of the bullets were defective of their gunpowder load.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: There's only one good bullet in the entire chamber that
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: end up killing Garfield. So if he had loaded the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: ammunition in a different order, it would have misfired and
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: never would have killed the president. So we have here
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: at the time gun powder and ammunition was not really reliable.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: So just by some dumb luck, he ends up picking
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: the other one good bullet in the second part of
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: the chamber that was a kill shot for Garfield. So
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: we have this with the British Bulldog Revolver. The ammunition here,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: part of it was defective corn analysis by the US
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Army that they gave back to mckel fresh.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is crazy because I think you you
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: mentioned in the book it.
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: It held five shots right right, and and one of them,
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: which would be the second shot fired at Garfield, was
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: the one that hit him in his back right. The
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: first one was kind of just miscompletely rely worked, kind
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: of made I think you mentioned it grazed his arm
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: maybe yeah, and uh so, and then the other three
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: after the second would have been defective as well, and
• 30:30
  Speaker 5: maybe made that second one had it not followed the
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: first one that was semi not effective, uh maybe done.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Not yeah, not work properly. So I found that fascinating
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: And to get back to what you were saying, So
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: I found that part extremely interesting because of course, was
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: Goodrow a lone nut or was he working part of
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: the experience as part of a conspiracy and you go
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: into this so Garfield's I guess the guy who warned
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: or tried to Warren Garfield was a friend of the
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: Postmaster General Thomas James.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: And that happened on twenty ninth, eighteen eighty one. Right,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: he tried to.
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: Warren Garfield, he went to the White House, he was
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: on a carriage ride, he came back, and then he
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: went to the Secret Service agent or a guard. I
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: don't know if he was guard a White House guard.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: And you did a lot of good research on him.
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: I think his name is Thomas Pendle And ironically he
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: had worked in guarding Lincoln as well. Yeah, eighteen years earlier, Yeah,
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: a little less sixteen seventeen years earlier. And you did
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: a bunch of research to figure out which agent would
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: have been on guard for both residence and and you
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: identified this Thomas Pendall guy, and uh, and that's who
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: would have received the warning. But we don't know who
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: the actual quote friend was that made the warning. We
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: just know he was a friend of the Postmaster General
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: and recognized or the White House guard.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Right And mm hmm.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: So the thing about this whole story that's I think
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: fascinating is that he tries the night they early on
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: in the evening, he tries to go to the to
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the White House to Warren Garfield, and Garifer wasn't there,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: so this is so important to tell him. He had
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to go back and warn him later on in the evening.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: It's eleven o'clock at night. When he's there, Garifer probably
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: wants to go to bed. His mother is probably waiting
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: for him to go to sleep, and he takes him
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: in and he he waits with him for he stays
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: with him for over an hour, see after midnight when
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: he leaves the White House, so he has an hour
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: long conversation with Garfield. And then he tells the agent
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the Secret Service. He just puts it bluntly. Someone wants
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: to kill the president. You better be careful right now
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: because it's going to happen soon and be aware. And
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: he is shot, of course three days later.
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think my last question on this is
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: it actually wasn't a fatal shot, right, but because he
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: had like ten doctors working on him or something, they
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: actually gave him an infection and he kind of died
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: a slow death in like September, which is very three
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: months after in eighteen eighty one, which is crazy.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: If they left from alone, you probably would have survived.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, you have one shot. If they would have
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: poured altcolm on the wound, maybe let him just recover.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: You would have probably recovered maybe a few months. He
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: was very healthy president in his forties. And doctor Is
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: just kept probing the woman with her dirty fingers over
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and over again, and yeah, who was who was very
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: you know, young president forties? Wow, just would have been
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: a good president for a country. Really sad. Yeah.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I.
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: My actual last question on this is, and I respect
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: this about your research, is you went to the Presidential
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: library and looked looked at all all the primary documents
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: regarding the investigation.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: And he was put on trial right Charles Patrol, and
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: later executed.
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: I believe he was.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: He was hung.
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: But but there were two witnesses that said that he
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: had a possible co conspirator. One of the statements, I
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: think it was a James Denny you were able to
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: find in the archives, and another one named Thomas Coulton,
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: who allegedly saw him with another person acting suspicious. And
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: his witness statement is gone from the archives.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: You can't find it.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy? I know, I mean I went to no,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, what the heck?
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: I mean?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I read this in another book about the assassination. So
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: I did confron this on my own, about this this statement,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: so that it says essentially that Garfield assassin Guitel drops
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: off this this package of information. Uh, And Denny's a
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: newspaper operator at the Union Pacific Railroad station, and later
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: on the detained Guitou and this Denny says, that's not
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: the same guy that dropped off the newspaper stuff to me.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: There's somebody else gave this information to me. Then the
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: assassin is not the person who gave this to me.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: So who had all this information that implicates Gueito? Wasn't him?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: And then you had this other person Denny or was
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: it Coulton Culton? So Colton says that Guto was in
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the station with someone else to support the assassination, pacing
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: around with someone. And that statement is in the National Archives.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: And I went there twice to look for it, and
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: as you were saying it's gone, it just isn't there.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it just looked. They said the guy
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: said it should be there, and it was like, well
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it isn't. So I don't know what to tell you,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: but it's not there, but it should be somewhere, but
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: you got these two different weird things that happened that
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: morning about him pacing with someone and the situation with
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Denny not confirming the assassin was the one that dropped
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: off the information. So a lot of weird things happening
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: on the day of the assassination, weird things going on.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: And I got a question.
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: We let our superspies ask a question of of our guests,
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: and we got a question from one of our big
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: super spies here, Trey, and he was wondering if you
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: had any thoughts. I know it's not presidential related, but
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: on the assassination of Huey Long if you ever if
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: you've ever looked into.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: That Louisiana nineteen thirties, right, So he was one of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: these major figures in the Democratic Party I think was
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: it and probably some Yeah, and he was a reformer
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: at the time. I think he was in was it
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Rosebuts administration that time period? Some could have been too, Yeah,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I think it was there that time period.
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: He was one of these.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mm hmmmmm mm hmm.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh h.
• 38:14
  Speaker 6: M hm. I leave John's freezing up there, Joe, Yeah,
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: I hear a little bit. Hopefully if you can hear
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: you froze up. You might your wife, I might come back.
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: There you are, and I think you're back now. Can
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: you hears John.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Still looks a little lacky.
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: Hey you guys, Yes, we still got you. Uh, but
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: you're frozen and lacking badly. I think you're back now,
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: can he hears h Do you have us now?
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: John still looks a little laggy on the video.
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: Hey John, if you can hear me, try leaving the
• 39:28
  Speaker 6: studio and following the link back in and hopefully it'll
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: reset your connection. I don't know if you can hear
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: us at all. Do you have us?
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: John?
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: Can you hear it?
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: You guys there?
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: I can hear it now, Okay, good, Yeah hear you guys. Sorry,
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: we've been having a bunch of what we call matrix
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: matrix attacks. Last week we had a guest on. My
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: audio was perfect for like the first hour, and the
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: second hour completely fell apart.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Didn't change settings. So it's just part of the CIA,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: the FBI.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I can hear you, guys. Know, I thought that was
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: my fault. It's okay, we'll believe I was doing something
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: to us.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: You sound great now?
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: They always target.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the truth. Seekers that they target. Yeah, that
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: is for sure.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: But of course the third section of your book is
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: of President McKinley, who was assassinated on September sixth, nineteen
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: oh one, in Buffalo, New York. I believe your hometown, sir.
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we got a question here, Joe, Yes, question John,
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: is that you do you see that question on the screen?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Is John wated to John Gottfried Kerner, the grandfather of
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: the right brothers, his daughter Susan, both of them mechanical
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: skills as far as I know, No, but I can
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: look into it. I'd like to claim that never, that'd
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: be great. I should shills and PBS. I should be
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: the next person. Yeah right, I'll go on with the
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: next person to go, Hey, I'm right, brothers connected, they
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: should up. As far as I know, I'm not.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: It's a good, good question.
• 41:49
  Speaker 6: Nonetheless, our diggers, man, I'll tell you. So, let's get
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: into McKinley next. What what year was McKinley assassinated? And Joe,
• 42:01
  Speaker 6: if you're gonna pop up that pistol.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Let's do it. Yes.
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: And if it's and again, this might not be the
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: actual gun an ivor Johnson thirty two caliber revolver.
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: That's it.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, nice give us the background on McKinley.
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: And and I can't even pronounce this guy's last name,
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: the assassin Leon, which is funny if you're familiar.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: With the JA yeah show gosh, I would not have gone. Okay,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: and Buffalo, you know how to pronounce that name. You're
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: born with knowing how to pronounce sho gosh. It's just
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Bill's spans. Being a Bill Span and knowing the assassin
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: of McKinley. You always know those two things. Okay. So
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: this happens September sixth, nineteen oh one. McKinley is visiting
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: in Buffalo toward the Pandrick Exposition, and the exposition has
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: been going on since May first, and he's visiting for
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: President's Day. He actually shows up on September fourth and
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: towards the grounds a little bit, and then the last
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: day he's going to be there in September sixth, and
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: he's going to head back to Washington with his wife Ida.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: But that's the culbination of the whole visit. He's at
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: the Temple of Music, the Greek the public and Leon Sholg.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: She has an interesting character, and I look into this
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: the situation in my book about could there have been,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you know, a conspiracy, and I think there are I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: think about three different things at point to involvement from
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: someone else. So he goes and he's show goest is
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: in Buffalo. He's he's there in the summer of nineteen
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: oh one and runs out of money on August twenty eighth.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: We know this because he can't pay his rent any longer.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: It disappears, No really knows where. He goes and shows
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: back up in Buffalo three days later and has stacks
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: of fifties and hundreds that he's showing to people. And
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: then he buys this this gun with that money and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: the ammunition for it. So how does this guy who
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: is unemployed get that kind of money from someone that quickly?
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. He must be funded by someone.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Also with the assassination scene itself, Yeah, right now, the
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: assassination scene itself, you have many unusual things taking place
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: as well. The official photographer, Charles Dudley Arnold, he follows
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: McKinley everywhere throughout the assassination. He has an all access pass.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: He shoots the president when he's a goat Island takes
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: pictures and shoot himself. He takes pictures of McKinley at
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Goat Island, mean follows is He follows McKinley. Different places
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: are on his visit. He's at the Temple of Music
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: and this you would think would be the money shot
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: for photographers reached the public. But he doesn't go inside,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: you know, the Temple of Music to take any pictures.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Someone tells me he can't go in there. So if
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: you got pictures of these fassinations, you can probably have
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: seen what happened when it was going on. But someone
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: tells him can't go in, even though he had all
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: access pass to take pictures. He was an eyed entry.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Now the actual assassination scene is also very very strange.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: So right in front of show Ghost is a person
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: the Secret Service calls the Italian, and Italian is acting
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: very strangely, so he is leaning backwards and show ghosts
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: behind him with the kind of the gun in his
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: back hiding it. And when the temp gets to McKinley,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: he takes the President's hand and will not let go
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: for like twenty seconds and turns McKinley and then agent's
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: foster in Ireland take the Italian away. From the President's
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: sho Goo steps up, blast your shots and the president
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: and then you know, the rest is history. As they say, So,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: it does seem like this person in front of him
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: was part of the plan to distract the Secret Service
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: the showgost should take the clear shots and the McKinley
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: that ended up killing him. Yeahs by the way, it
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: said the Bubble History Museum they have it on display.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: No, it does seem like the ammunition too. That's why
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I asked you about that.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry, just I'm saying, go ahead. You were
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: to finish what you were saying.
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: It was the classic misdirection, right that the mystery at
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: Alliant guy got the attention to the Secret Service agents
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: and Leon I'm not going to pronounce the last name again, uh,
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: kind of uses that opportunity to get two shots off.
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: And and then in the chaos of the aftermath, the
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: Italian was kind of shuffled out with a lot of
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: the other people. And I think what you're saying in
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: your book is the arnold the photographer prevented from entry
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: or possibly having his pictures destroyed.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: I think that was the other option, was.
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: To avoid a possible identity of the quote Italian, short mustache.
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: I think kind of looked like Joe.
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: He could be my great grandfather. And that's going to
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: lead me into a great story. You have at a
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: twenty thirteen book signing in Buffalo where allegedly the great
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: grandson of this mystery Italian came up to you and said,
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: it's been a family secret for a long time that
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: my great grandfather was this guy that was creating the diversion.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: So tell us a little more about that pleaser.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the book I read about this secret plot
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: to kill McKinley talks about this well, some of the story,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: but this wasn't in the book. This in this book though,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: the updated version, I guess you can say.
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: So.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: I'm doing a book signing at the Befal History Museum,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: which is part of the exposition. It was a New
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: York State building at the fairground. It's still there, and
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I'm doing book signing and this guy walks up to
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: me and he says that, you know, he's read my
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: book and he likes the part about, you know, the Italian,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: because his great grandfather was in fact this this guy,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: and it was always kept a secret because they felt
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: that he was he might have been part of the
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: plot because they felt the same thing. It was very
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: suspicious what he did. He was a very Republican at
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the time in Buffalo. So if you you know, you
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: know connect the dots. Was this part of the plot
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: to install Roosevelt for president? He certainly was from New
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: York State, a governor, a lot of support in Buffalo,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Rooseveld Park, he's supported his campaign for governor.
• 49:33
  Speaker 6: So we have here.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: It's a lot to make the leap, but it certainly
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: does look like this person. According to what this person said,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: he was part of the family and was the Republican,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and he said he was part of the plot. So
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: just going with what he said. And that was at
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: a book signing that I was doing for that other
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: book that I wrote, Crazy stuff.
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and so Theodore wrote Develot was the vice president
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: at that time to McKinley, right, mhm.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And his more much that he was the governor of
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: York or that Yeah, and much like L B.
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: J and Dallas with Kennedy, this was his hometown. To
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: make the analogy for for the JFA guys people here,
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: So that's very interesting, and uh, did you ever get
• 50:26
  Speaker 5: any more information on his name. Did you any do
• 50:29
  Speaker 5: any more research?
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Did he give you his name?
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: I don't know if the research is ongoing, we're able
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: to make anything of that.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he did email me his name. Yeah, he gave
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: me his name, and we looked into it a little
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: bit more. And he did say that he was like
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: a like a word boss that at the time like
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: organizing votes and pretty well known at the time that
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: he was counted on just to get the job done.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: In other words, person who can rely on for I'm
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: saying like almost like a mafia would would use someone
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: for just getting things done what they needed to get done.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: But he was a tough it's a full Italian guy.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: And he said, I guess this is what they needed
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: to do, and we did it.
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: Here's a question from Josh. Didn't he also have a
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: running with anarchist Emma Goldman, who called Zohgash and the
• 51:22
  Speaker 6: agent prophet prof I guess I mean provocateur provocat.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: To Yeah, I mean he was you met her literature.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: He certainly met her a few different times. A Goldman
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: actually tore up the exhibition grounds that summer, so she
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: was there on the grounds. It's interesting because trying to
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: figure out like how this all happened. You get to
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the end of August of nineteen oh one, and it's
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: clear that the show ghost wants to kill McKinley. He's
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: making it clear to anyone who wants to listen to him.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: And the Anarchists they disowned him, they say he's not
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: one of us, we don't want him. And then I
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: mentioned this situation where he goes, he leaves Buffalo, comes back,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: you know, with this ton of cash. Someone gave it
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: to him, So it's a lot to make the leap,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: but almost like is he a hired assassin? Does someone
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: and then he can put the blame on you know,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: the anarchists, that they're the ones behind this, but in
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: fact it was someone else, you know, that actually was
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: doing the planning for this, because he's getting his money
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: from somewhere, and there seems to be at the assassination scene.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: No wants to see who the Italian was. No pictures
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: of the assassination. That's very strange, and I think these
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: questions need to be answered about what was going on there.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I do a little mask because
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: I have a background in finance.
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: So I think you said he had like a big
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: wad of fifty dollar bills, right, I think you said that,
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: And fifty dollars in nineteen oh one would have been
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: about eight hundred and fifty dollars. So if you think
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: about a big wad, you're like two grand, two grand,
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: two grand for someone that couldn't pay his dollar fifty
• 53:20
  Speaker 5: boarding a couple of months before he got an influx
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: of cash.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you gotta wonders.
• 53:29
  Speaker 5: It's fascinating. I'm not a McKinley expert. I only know
• 53:32
  Speaker 5: what i've read from your chapter on these books. Seems
• 53:37
  Speaker 5: like there's something more.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: There, Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a lot of money.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I mean he goes in, he's like paying for these
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: expensive alcohol, he's getting the best gun he can buy,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: and he's paying his room and board in advance. And
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: he gets back to Buffalo. And who can give him
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: that kind of money that quickly? I mean, it just
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: it seems like it's blood money to me to pay
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: him off to do this. Why else would you give
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: him that much money? You know, I think that's what
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: it's for.
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And you can contrast that too, when we get
• 54:12
  Speaker 6: to the Kennedy assassination, you know, with people suddenly coming
• 54:17
  Speaker 6: into a good bit of money. I mean, you've got, uh,
• 54:21
  Speaker 6: you know, Jack Ruby, who was apparently in financial trouble
• 54:24
  Speaker 6: and when he's arrested, he's got what eight grand on
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: him or something like that. And you know David Ferries
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: all of a sudden out there buying gas stations and
• 54:32
  Speaker 6: running that. Lauren Hall's buying motels to run, you know,
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: out in California.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: The Morell getting a payment in Haiti.
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah. And and one thing that strikes me too is
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: that the economy of all these assassins, because with the
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: first three, I mean, it's pretty they pretty much got
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: caught red handed. You know, there's there's so many witnesses
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: that they had to do it from such a short distance,
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: given the weapons that they were using at the time.
• 55:05
  Speaker 6: And then we get to the Kennedy assassination, and this
• 55:08
  Speaker 6: is the first rifle out of the four guns that
• 55:11
  Speaker 6: we see. We also have a potential or accused assassin
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: who doesn't take credit, you know what I mean, He
• 55:20
  Speaker 6: denies that he's the assassin. When these other guys, you know,
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: they're called red handed, they they have no choice put
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: to admit it. And then you know, when you get
• 55:33
  Speaker 6: to the Kennedy assassion. You have Oswald who doesn't take
• 55:36
  Speaker 6: credit for it. He in fact, he denies it until
• 55:38
  Speaker 6: he's shot. And you could added a fifth gun if
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: you wanted to add Jack Ruby's gun, and you know
• 55:44
  Speaker 6: into this, but I know why you kept it with
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: the presidential assassins. But there's so many other guns that
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: have changed the course of history. It's crazy. But so
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: let's get to the Kennedy assassination with Oswald and the
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: Man Liquor Carcano. Of course, as being in a JFK
• 56:04
  Speaker 6: related podcast, you know, we've we've studied the rifle, where
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: it came from. Uh you know what kind of gun
• 56:13
  Speaker 6: it was. But just give us a little bit of
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: background about the man Liquor Carcano h and its history
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: as a rifle.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, So can you guys hear me? Okay, because I'm
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: getting kind of glitching a little bit.
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, we can hear you.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Okay? Okay, yep, okay, So the
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: man look at carcano. The thing about this weapon you
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: guys probably know about this not a very good weapon.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: It's the weapons that were first use Mussolini's armies in
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, and thirties, so many of them are around.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: They're very much unreliable for a long distance rifle. They're
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: very low velocity weapons. And the one with the weapon
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: was the scope was yeah, yeah, it was a defective scope.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: It was cited for a left handed shooter. Basoll was
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: right handed. So we have when there's a paraffine test
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: take taken of Oswald, it was tested negative for a
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: residue for for a gun that day, and the gun itself.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: When the people that first get to the book depository
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: and the sniper's nests, you guys probably know they found
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: a mouser up there first, and the Kirkana was discovered
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: probably later on in the evening, so it seems like
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: other guns are up there, not just the man Kircano.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: And one thing about Oswald himself that I found just
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: fascinating that started off the chapter within the Kennedy assassination
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: section is the fact that I think it's pretty he
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: never shot Jad Tippett. He never could have. So Jenny
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Tippet was this Dall's police officer that he gets arrested
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: or allegedly for shooting Oslo goes to the Texas Theater
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: and we know he goes in there between one o'clock
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: and one o six pm. I we know it's because
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: the ticket taker he you know, he saw him go
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: in there at that time they started the movie at
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: War's Hell. But and he never left the theater. He
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: goes in there. Yeah, and then he gets arrested about
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: one fifty pm. And look at the Dallas police records
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: for one Tippet was killed, it's one fifteen pm. Dies
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: at one sixteen, So he never could have shot Tippet.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: He's in the theater. So that alone, I think proves
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: that that right there we can see his involvement should
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: be questioned just from that that alone.
• 59:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree. I've always said, you know, like so
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: the assassination goes down at twelve thirty twelve thirty one pm,
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: and you know, supposedly Oswald has to make it to
• 59:15
  Speaker 6: the second floor where he's seen drinking a coke allegedly,
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: and then at some point he has to make his
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: way out of the depository, walk down the street a
• 59:28
  Speaker 6: couple of blocks, and then walk down another street where
• 59:32
  Speaker 6: he supposedly boards a bus. He's on there, stuck in
• 59:35
  Speaker 6: traffic for how long? And then he exits a bus
• 59:39
  Speaker 6: and goes to pick up a cab. He has to
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: walk to the Greyhound station to get to get a
• 59:44
  Speaker 6: cab to which he then takes back over to Oak
• 59:48
  Speaker 6: Cliff and he tells the driver to go like was
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: it five or seven blocks past his rooming house and
• 59:53
  Speaker 6: let him out. So he has to walk back to
• 59:55
  Speaker 6: his rooming house.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Why he does that?
• 59:58
  Speaker 6: That's but uh. And then he gets to go inside
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 6: where he changes his clothes, and then he comes back
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 6: out and then he's supposed to be walking on foot
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 6: and somehow make it all the way to the scene
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 6: of the Tippet shooting within you know, forty minutes, thirty
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 6: five to forty minutes. I just don't see that happening.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 6: He just definitely didn't have time to get there by then.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: And if it's if you look, yeah, but please continue
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: go ahead.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I was just gonna say that. And I didn't
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 6: really realize this until I actually went to Dallas and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: saw it with my own eyes. Like where his rooming
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 6: house is situated, Zang's kind of runs keeps running down
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 6: to the left, and then you can make that another
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 6: left onto Jefferson and the theater is like a couple
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 6: of blocks down on the left. It's very close to
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 6: his rooming house, which makes me think that, you know,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: if if the tip of shooting, I don't think he
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 6: had anything to do with the tip of shooting, but
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 6: he was, he wouldn't he wouldn't have taken the route
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: he was going if his destination was ultimately the Texas Theater,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 6: because he would have been going into the long the
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: long route, if you will, and he just didn't have
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: a reason to do that. And like you said, you know,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 6: Butcher Bruce saw him going in, and apparently there was
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 6: something with Julia Postal, who was the ticket taker. Later
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 6: on she had like a nervous breakdown and was crime
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: because you know, people think that she was kind of
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 6: coerced into saying that she didn't see Oswald go in,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: but when he was actually really paid for a ticket.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 6: But that's a whole different story.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you have the whole situation that you mentioned
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: about at the crime scene where he's at allegedly, you know,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: at the top floor shooting at the President and he
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: allegedly goes down the back staircase. The two witnesses there
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: never see him, with Tory Adams one of them, and
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: he never could have made it down all those flights
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: of stairs and not be out of breath having his lunch.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: So the whole such situation with him even being in
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: a position to shoot was not even possible. So yeah,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: it does seem like he was with both of the
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: shootings there that day and not responsible for either one
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: of them.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 6: With tip It In with Kennedy, Yeah, we had this guy,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: Gavin McMahon, he's a he's a researcher from Australia actually,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: and and he came on he's he's been looking into
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 6: the Tippet shooting. And one of the witnesses Joe what
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 6: was her name Markham, Yeah, Helen Markham. Apparently she had
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 6: some like teenage sons that were uh, troublemakers in like
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 6: these little gangs or whatever back whatever they were back then,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 6: you know the Jets or what you know, I think
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 6: you have street and street gang or whatever. But yeah,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 6: he was saying that, you know, more than likely that
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 6: these guys were involved, you know, they were getting in
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 6: trouble with the law and you know, selling drugs and
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 6: just being uh, you know, tough guys back then, or
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 6: you know, burglaries, smashing grabs, stuff like that, fighting just
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 6: bad kids, and uh that more than likely that they
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 6: they might have been involved, but who knows, you know,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 6: because there's like fifteen witnesses to the tip of shooting.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Mhm, I'll say it wasn't Oswald.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's where where Rob and
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: I are as well at this point.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 6: But uh, so you have.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 7: Booth who was executed, right, allegedly allegedly, you have if
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 7: we believe escape, Trow and Leon.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to try to who who.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: Jaques McKinley also executed, and Oswald also executed, but in
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: a different manner, right, m right.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: And but but the other three.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: Were stalking the subjects, as you point out in your book,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: for like with Booth, the kidnapp being plot before that,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 5: and uh and you know, these people had documented like
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: they were not like a documented they did not like
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: the president, right, they were like they hated them, they
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: wanted to kill them.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: But in terms of.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 5: Oswalt, you have a Marxist allegedly right killing a very
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: liberal president.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 5: So I think that's the one that really stands out
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 5: when I compare all four. I think the other three
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: definitely ideological.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 5: Booth was upset about the Civil War, and I think
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 5: it Lee surrendered to Grant like five days before Lincoln
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 5: was shot, which I didn't realize t Richard book. I
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: didn't realize was that close. And it's it's fascinating to
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: think of, like why would would Oswald do that? And
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: then why would he not take credit for it? Because
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: the other three did take credit in a sense, right
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: or admit to it? Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the other three were. They definitely took credit for it,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: so he knew that they were at least they were
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: the ones, if not others involved with the assassinations. Yeah,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: and all three of them with you know, it just
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: seemed like the motives are pretty clear, but it doesn't
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: seem that it was cleared out like with Osmo. There's
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: no clear motive at all for him, that's any thing.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: That also shows why he wasn't the assassin, So he
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: had no motive to want to shoot Kennedy.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: And you know, I thought of when I was reading
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: this book and one of the and I was looking
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 5: for common denominators, right, like what is the common denominator
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: of these four presidents being killed? And the best that
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: I can come up with was that all four of
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: them were trying to make extreme change, right and got
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: killed in the process, whether it was Garfield trying to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: give civil war rights or civil rights, civil rights to
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 5: African Americans, to Lincoln obviously there and McKinley. And it's
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 5: interesting because McKinley there's a common denominator in terms of Cuba, right,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: he was trying to make Cuba a democracy in nineteen
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: oh one or nineteen hundred or somewhat close to that.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: And of course, obviously Cuba was a big factor in
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: the JFK assassination, at least what Rob and I believe.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so, and that brings us to Trump.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: And I don't want to get into Trump too much
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: because we piss off either side when we get to this,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: but you know, he's had a couple of assassination attempts recently,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: and whether you like Trump, whether you hate Trump, he's
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 5: someone that's trying to make a type of change.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: And I see a pattern here. So I just wanted
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: to get your thoughts on that.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Then we could start off with with Lincoln assassination. I mean,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: idly think that if he had been able to live
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: through his second term, he would have been able to
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of just amazing things for a country to
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: healer our nation after the Civil War was over. I
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: think he made it very clear in his last speech
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: to the country in April of eighteen sixty five that
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: he talked about some called Louisiana Plan where every southern
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: state was going to have equal rights, citisenship, voting rights,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: and he wanted that to be the vision voting rights
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: for former slaves so they can vote those ones that were,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: you know, in the military. I think he would have
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: destroyed the ku Klux Klan. He would make sure that
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: we never would have existed. He would have made sure
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: a civil right sack who had been passing in forests.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: I think he would have seen our country with a
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: new bird, with the freedom talked about the Gettysburg address,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: I think would have meant that focused for his second
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: let's say, with Garfield and his you mentioned this with
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: his emphasis on civil rights, he was looking forward to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: making a huge emphasis on this for his administration. He
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: was going to do a speech on it in Georgia
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: in October, and his whole cabinet was just focused on
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: trying to get the country back to reconstruction, which had
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: ended in administration of Hayes and he was hopefully going
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: to be one of our great presidents. And then with
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: McKinley mentioned with Cuba, he had looked forward to a
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: time one that would be an independent country democrat. And
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: if they go forward with that plan, there's no Fidel
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: Castro and the nineteen fifty yes, that would have never happened.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: They would have developed for you know, good fifty sixty
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: years with our support.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: No Bay of Pigs either, which could have changed the
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 6: Kennedy assassination. I mean, it might not have ever happened
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 6: because of because of that, you know, because of everything
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 6: involved with the Bay of Pigs and the CIA and
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 6: you know, pissed off anti Castro Cubans, exile Cubans. You know,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 6: the assassination possibly could have never happened. So it definitely
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 6: could have changed history. And if Kennedy hadn't have died,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: I think you would have seen a very different uh succession,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 6: you know it even presidents after him. You wouldn't never
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 6: have had Johnson as a president or Nixon likely, and
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: you know, things could be totally different. I think in
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 6: the in the novel and I think in the mini series.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 6: You know, Stephen King's November twenty second, nineteen sixty three
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 6: or eleven, twenty two sixty three. He pauses this, and
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 6: there's even a scene in the film about the future
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: being worse if Kennedy hadn't been killed, which is an
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 6: odd take I thought, but yeah, I don't know.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And another thing that is constant between the four
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: that you point out in your book is obviously the
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: Secret Service incompetence and the guy Parker going off for
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 5: drinks during the intermission at the Ford Theater, and and Garfield.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 5: I think that was more of the doctors. But also
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 5: you know, I had warnings three days before allegedly there
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 5: were Secret Service failures in each of those situations, and
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 5: that's one of the things I kind of put together
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: for reading all four sections of the book.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you look at all of them, all
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: four of them really, for every one of the assassinations.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: And you even just want to mention with the Kennedy
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: assassination that I did some research about if you can
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: survive a throat wound, and you look at the way
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: the assassination goes down. You know, the first shot, you know,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: JFK reacts to it, misses the car completely, and then
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: the second shot. At that point they should have reacted
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: to it. Two shots have already been fired, and there's
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: no reaction from Hill or Ready right behind him. So
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: if they get to the car, then when he's shot
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: in the throat, he could have survived it because there's
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: no prowless that he has his arms up, he's not bleeding,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: and George Orwell got shot in the throat and a
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: spasih American War and survived in the nineteen thirties, So
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: if he gets at that point and if he is saved,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: he cans survived the assassination. For the second shot, there's
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: still no reaction, Like if you had a quick reaction
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: from Ready and from Hill when he got in the
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: throat wound, he could have survived the shooting. But they
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: didn't react because night before they're at Jeff Ruby's club
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: drinking until talk in the morning, and that I think
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: was what impaired the reaction time when it came time
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: to be you know what, they needed to do quick
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: reactions which just didn't happen. They were two eights to
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: the carr then.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 6: And the drivers step on it either when he should
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 6: have for sure, yeah.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 5: Or the Secret Service agent in the in the passenger seat, right,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 5: he just kind of looked, I'm blanking on his name.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: He turned around the chat well, well we'll correct us. Uh,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: you know, he turned around kind of looked I'm sorry.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 6: Killermann.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, he didn't really do anything either,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: He just kind of looked around.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: Uh And granted Kennedy was what like two rows back
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: at that point, but uh, you know, Clint Hill only
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: reacted when, you know, when kind of Jackie kind of
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: climbed on the back of the limousine to try to
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: had part of JFK's brain. He could have reacted much quicker,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: as you know, we could say that of a lot
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: of agents. So and I think we lost you there
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: for a second. John, We're just saying, following up in
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 5: your point on how Clint Hill reacted very slowly, only
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: when Jackie you know, kind of went back on the
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: car or to try to retrieve whatever she was trying
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: to retrieve and Kellerman And yeah, I mean the reaction
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: was super slow, and that's consistent kind of through all
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 5: four although in the McKinley it was kind of a diversion,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 5: but you know, you could argue shots from the backward
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: diversion or whatever like. But there were failures in all
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 5: four circumstances for sure.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem like when the situation the presidents
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: needed their action direction time to be quick, and they
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: just Parker was not in the box. Garfy was completely unprotected.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: McKinley agents, Foster in Ireland, they fell for the ruse
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: and JFK's agents were slow to react because they were
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: the night before drinking Jack Ruby's club. There's a story
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: about that too. Abraham Bolden, the African American agent JFK,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: you know he appoints to his protection. He talked about this,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: He exposed the truth about it, and he got ostracized
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: and doubted for bribery, which he never did. He got
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: pardoned just last year by President Biden, and he's been
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: exonerated for anything that he ever did anything wrong. But
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: he exposed all that information about the agents being drunk
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: the night before and being sold to react and when
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: they needed they the most help that they could get,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: and they, of course, and they failed him when they
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: needed him the most. So said.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 6: Yep, and John, we had a comment here. I'm guessing
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 6: it's no relation. Let me pop it up here. So
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 6: Gustave Kerner went home after he heard Lincoln's asassination, and
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: his wife Sophie remarked, she grew pale, trembled and exclaimed,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 6: that was a shot we heard last night. And he
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 6: follows it up with this content about you're I know,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 6: you're interested in the supernatural as well, which is definitely cool.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 6: And apparently, you know, she had some kind of a
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 6: supernatural experience concerning the assassination of Lincoln. And and and
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 6: funny I saw you. You've written the book Haunted Rochester
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 6: as well, and you're a big promoter of like tours
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 6: and walks and haunted you know, haunted things. And just
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 6: a couple of weeks ago, I took a haunted tour
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 6: of Shepherdstown, West Virginia, as the first ever haunted tour
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 6: I've ever done. And we went to a couple of
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 6: graveyards and stuff, and the lady that was giving it
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 6: was all dressed up from period close and telling us
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 6: all the stories because this little town of Shepherdstown's situated
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 6: maybe a mile or two from the Battle of Antietam,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 6: which was the bloodiest you know, Civil War battle, and
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 6: she was, you, you know, the streets were just soaked
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 6: in blood, twenty thousand injured and coming through there, and
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 6: and there was all kinds of ghost stories, which I
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 6: thought was really cool. So I would recommend anybody if
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 6: you got it, like a haunted tour thing in your town,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 6: and you have like you know, some kind of history
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 6: or historical significance in your town, do something fun. Get out.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 6: It's a cool date night, date night kind of thing,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 6: you know, and go out to dinner and go on
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 6: a haunted walk to tour or whatever. And I had
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 6: a lot of fun, And I know you're a big
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 6: promoter that as well.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: Actually, I have my own ghost walk company. I do
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: tours doing this through about ten years or so in
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: the Western New York area, and they're based off of
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: research I've done about paranormal events, you know, in Lockportort, Buffalo,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Western New York. Actually a story about in Tetam I
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: could just quickly share that connects to one of the
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: stores that I do there in Buffalo. So it was
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: September I think it was twenty second, eighteen sixty two
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: Lincoln Sam's emancipation proclamation, and that day in Lockport, one
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: hundred and thirteen dad Fish showed up in the canal
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: there and just I guess so was about three days
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: before an Antietam. One hundred and thirteen men from locker
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Port died during the battle event Tetum that sort of
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: our country. So they had one hundred and thirteen dead fish,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: a hundred and thirteen dead soldiers and they showed up
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: the same day and Nikolson the mass fishing proclamation. So
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: Blackport has this kind of spooky unusual event that takes
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: place during that time when Lincoln sounds that proclamation that
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: freed the slaves. So I have that to where we
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: go on. We do this every October and we have
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of spooky things that happen and we talk
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: about that and other events that take place in our
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: paranormal history in western New York. So yeah, we do
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: that in October.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not that far from you, John, I'm I
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: was born in Westchester, New York, Sleepy Hollow. I know
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: it has some lure to it.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 5: I'm in Connecticut, right on the border in New York,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 5: but I go up to the Catskills a lot, and
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 5: I've been up.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: My cousin lives in Syracuse, So hey, I might I
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: might come do that. That sounds fun. I love all
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: that stuff, so.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: It's so fun to talk about actually quctually irving how
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: he visited Buffalo in the eighteen thirties, took the canal
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: and watching everybody. Actually, one of the famous ghost ships
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: that have disappeared in the eighteen thirties thamed after him,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: so he has a little connection that's very kind of
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: spooky for Buffalo too. So yeah, he always shows up.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: We'd at least expect him in different places.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 6: Nice. Well, John, thank you so much for joining us tonight,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 6: and again, folks, you can find everything all the books
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 6: that he's written down below in the description. There's an
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 6: Amazon link where you can purchase any of his books
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 6: if you're interested. He's done a lot of different topics
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 6: as well, something about JFK JR. Which I'm sure some
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 6: of our viewers might be interested in as well, of course,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 6: so definitely check them out. Ye John, we end every
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: show here. I don't know if you are you familiar
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 6: with Dean Andrews from the JFK story, The lawyer down
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, m all right. He's Buddy's larger that was
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: supposed to be Oswald's lawyer and played by John Candy
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: in the movie. Yeah.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, likely told him to go to Dallas.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: Well he's our buddy.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 6: We use him to end our show all the time. Uh.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 6: And it's just like a minute thing and then our
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 6: show ends. But Joe, if you'd like to say something,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 6: go ahead before we sign off here.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 5: So I've read the whole book The Four Guns this
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 5: this week and I learned so much.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: It's so intriguing. If if you like the Kennedy assassination.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 5: The other three chapters on UH are portions, not chapters,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 5: as they're multi chapters.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: Of Lincoln and Garfield and McKim lee. It's just it's
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: a wealth of knowledge. And I'm so happy I read
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: the book. I'm so happy you came on. I learned
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 5: I learned, you know, And it's all about for me, patterns, right,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 5: what is consistent in all these four what's not consistent
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 5: and what can we kind of glean from that?
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: And I learned a lot.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 5: And I suggest all of our followers by John's book
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 5: and the link will be in the description.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: It's it's a great read, fascinating.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, John, guys, very gracious, thank
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: you for having me and a lot of fun talking
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: to you guys. You guys are so much fun. You're
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: you're just a riot. So much for talking to you guys.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: It's been a lot of fun. I just add a
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: pleasure and it's been my pleasure to be on the show.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, guys.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 6: Good Man. We'll have to have you back on some
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 6: time and follow up and maybe get into some other
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 6: things as well with you.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so now we'll dance it out to agree.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 6: And thank you again John for hanging out with us.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 6: Thank you to our wonderful listeners and supporters. Tiny Dancer
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 6: is a new covert operator for us. Yes, and thank
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 6: you to John for your super chat. We didn't miss it.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 6: And without further ado, here is mister Dean Andrews to
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 6: dance us out of here. We'll see you next week, folks.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 6: Thanks for hanging and enjoy din King Patty's prison.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: He did not talk for the record, but he said,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: come to Bourbon Street and I'll show you what I
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: think of the case. The greatest lies are told in
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: the name of truth, the greatest crimes are committed in
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: the name of justice. The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: could be used for him or against him in this
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: strange case.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: Good night, Thank you John.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: I was dancing too. That was great.