Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Inside the Life of the Craigslist Drug Dealer

Transcript

Inside the Life of the Craigslist Drug Dealer · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Adam Shand. He was once known as the Craigslist drug dealer,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and he was one of the most prolific operators of
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: his generation. But Jamie Birchall is coming to terms with
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: life beyond his criminal past. Nine months after being released
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: from maximum security prison, Jamie is determined to stay free,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: creating a safe space for himself in the bush, far
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: from the milieu that he was once so deeply invested in.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: He's also keen to repair fractured relationships, including with his children,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: and talking to me for this podcast is one step
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: towards that. We caught up recently for an Access All
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Areas conversation that I intend to continue with him. At 44,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Jamie knows his time to change is running out. If
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: he messes up again, he will blink and wake up
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: at the age of 55, alone, unfulfilled and institutionalised. However,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: if he can bring the same focus and energy that
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: he once applied to drug dealing, Jamie can achieve amazing things.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: And I'm happy to support that endeavour. Jamie Birchall, welcome
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to Real Crime.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you, mate.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: You've been in jail the last five years. I guess
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: people probably really know you back when you were the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Craigslist Drug dealer. You've just finished five years. Who are
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: you now?
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. See, back then when I started,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I've always had sort of an alias, I guess you
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: could call it. So Mr. Frosty Cold was my Craigslist alias.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: And that's basically how I operated. And then in the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: later last sentence, I'm known as Osborne King or Oz.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, I guess you went through a process of
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: putting aside those aliases and your past. And you got
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: out last November, I believe. So we're looking at, what,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: nine months. Who is that guy that's emerged from custody?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: He's very different. He's very different. A little bit more grounded,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I guess. And I'm still probably figuring myself out in a.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Lot of ways. As we all are, I guess, in
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: different ways. As we all are.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I've changed a big lifestyle. If you could imagine having
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to going to only wanting what you need.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: You're exploring sufficiency, which I think is a good thing
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: in life generally. And you had all those things. They
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: came easy, I guess. But it never really comes easy
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: in the criminal world. There's always risks associated with it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: But you got those things. And you told me in
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: our first discussion that they didn't fill your cup. What
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: does that mean? No.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I guess it's just basic greed. You know, you aim
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: for a goal when you're a kid, you know, the
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: million-dollar dream. And you soon realize as you get older
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and wiser that a million dollars doesn't last long. So
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: when do you stop?
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: When do you stop? And also, if one million doesn't
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: do it, is the number 2 million or 5 million.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I've met a lot of people who've had even more
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: money than that and they never get to that place.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Was that a realisation, do you think?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Only in the last probably three years because money's always
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: been easy come, easy go. So once you learn how
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: to make money off drugs, it's a trait. You can
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: step back into it any time. You'll have customers that
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: you haven't spoken to for 10 years and it's like
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: you're never left.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: But for the record, you have left. You have left
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: this time.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I have left, yes.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: In our discussion we had a long hour and a
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: half a few days ago, you were very determined about that.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And I guess you've seen people come back to jail
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: who have made big plans but still come back. How
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: do you regard where you are now and why it's
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: going to be different for you?
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Where I am now is somewhere I've wanted to be
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: probably all my life in a sense because this is
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: basically what i've loved as a kid but uh i
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: guess you don't realize that with all the noise that
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: you allow in so this is all i guess new
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: but familiar to me so yeah.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Right because you've seen it in your dreams and you
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: you From what you told me, you're out in the
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. I won't give you the state or anything,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: but you're in the middle of nowhere. You've built yourself
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: some sort of shelter, a house. You've got some goats.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: You've got a dog and lots of open space.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: No dog. I've got chickens. I've got a lot of chickens.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: No dog. No, just goats and chickens at the moment.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I haven't found the right dog.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Right. So how does that compare with what a four
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: by three metre Selinbarwin prison in Victoria?
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, funnily enough, I've got like a 20-foot container
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: that just has my bedroom and my little lounge room
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: in it. It's very, very similar. Now, the boys and
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: girls will know that prison, your cell becomes your home.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Like you set it up, you take pride in it,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: you display everything you've got in it. And it may
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: be small, but it's home. But that's, I guess, where
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: the danger of The comfortability of being in jail.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Right, because I think to the career criminal, career drug dealer,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: as you call it, a trade, going to jail is
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: just one of the on costs of doing that business
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: and you have to be ready to do that. Was
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: that your attitude? Yeah, basically.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: It's no different than jumping in your car. You know
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: what I mean? There's risks in everything we do in life.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I guess if you think about it too much or
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: what could happen, you'd probably never do anything.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Right, and I guess... Once you're in jail a couple
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: of times, you realize they can't punish you anymore. That's right.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: You've set your life up in there and it's not
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Once you go through the system a bit and you
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: learn it, which I did, I learned very well what
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: the system can give me and take away. It's just
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: one of those things like you've got to adapt real quick.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Before we get into the nitty-gritty of all that stuff,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I'd like to get a better understanding of what your
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: plan is out there in the wilderness. You know, you're
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: an urban guy, very urban guy.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I certainly am.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and suddenly you're out there, and I guess the
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: space and light must be a revelation to you.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: It's every day I walk out my little door, and
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be anywhere else. And nothing would
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: change that, I think.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope not because you've invested heavily to get
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: yourself there and it's come, you know, your criminal career
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: has come with a lot of heartache. And we also
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: talked about the bridges you're trying to rebuild. You had
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: a family, children. Yes. And that's been difficult because of
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: what's happened.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Difficult because of my choices, my selfishness, my actions. Yeah, definitely.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: So what do you want to do about it now?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sort of in between a rock and a
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: hard place because my oldest daughter, she's an adult. She
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: can make her own choices. Very hard for me to
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: hear those choices sometimes, but putting my faith in the universe,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: you know, she comes back. My younger two, they're nearly adults,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: but that's an even tougher situation to even step towards
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: because I... I take two steps forward and I just
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm still standing in the same spot.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Does it come back to confidence that they have to
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: be sure that you're confident in the new choices you've
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: made and that they won't be backsliding into the old ways?
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Because it's so easy, isn't it? It's so easy to
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: go back into it.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Very easy. When it becomes comfortable to you, it's the norm. But, yeah,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: obviously they have their reservations about things and I'm not
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: one to say that I haven't done wrong. I certainly have.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: it's uh yeah i don't know it's just when do
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: you get a chance do you know what i mean well.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Probably when you give yourself a chance you've got to
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: forgive yourself for the things that have gone wrong and
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the wrongs you've you've done you've got to forgive yourself
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: and go forward with confidence that you know because men
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: we struggle with self-confidence and it's easy to go back
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to the old ways old habits whether it's drinking too
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: much or getting in fights or getting involved in crime,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: we have to show to those close to us that
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: we've forgiven ourself and can genuinely move forward. Then I
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: think it becomes possible. Yeah.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when you consistently make choices that prove
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: that you don't care enough and then you have to
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: sit with that feeling that you, you know, may have
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: been high or out of your head and made some
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: stupid choices, but you don't realise the impact that has
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: on them. It's easy to say, oh, it's the drugs.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: When you're clean, you're sober, and reality slowly comes back
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: into light, it's sometimes very hard to look at yourself.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Have you got a mirror in that little container?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Look, there's one on pretty much every car still. And
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: when you're a good-looking rooster like me, you don't really
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: need a mirror.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll let that one pass.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: It's a confidence thing.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And you know, let's roll back into your
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: background as a kid because you never grew up with
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: any safety and security, didn't have any confidence that life
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: would work out for you. How did things begin for you?
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Look, I didn't have, you know, the A-grade childhood. It
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: was pretty complex. And I guess there's parts of it
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: that I cherish, but there's a lot of it that
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I've taken a long time to deal with, you could say.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: all the therapy and all the talking about it sometimes
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: just numbs the noise, but it doesn't take that conflict
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: resolution that you have with yourself about it and the
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: people that were involved. Yeah, my childhood wasn't fabulous. Thankfully,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I've maintained a change in that as well.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mate, I'm quite blunt about these things, and I'll
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: say it, and you can always, you know, you don't
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: have to answer it, but I believe that you're a
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: victim of childhood sexual assault.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep. And abuse and whatever you... But that was
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the olden days, isn't it?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Not for everyone, but it was for you.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: No, not for everyone.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Yep. And how much does that stay with you and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was a sort of a... I'm not making excuses for you,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: by the way, Jamie. You still made choices and you
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: know that. That's right. I think our background colours our
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: responses in those moments and how much did the childhood
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: set the path for you?
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Up until three years ago, it was... an excuse that
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I did use for things that I've done. It's also
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: been a strength that I've been able to use, having
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: that little bit of anger in me in times that
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I've needed it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: So, yeah. And you've had some therapy about it?
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I've done a fair bit of therapy, yeah. I spent
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: a lot more time in the last couple of years
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: just doing it myself rather than talking to Two people
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: telling them the same story over and over again, going
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: over the same formality, which you realize is what happens
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: when you've seen 10, 12, 13 therapists. You become the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: book that they're handing you, and it becomes, again, not real.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So when I was locked in a cell 23 hours
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: a day, I made the choice to figure myself out
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: a bit because I'd have good days, I'd have bad days,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: days I wanted to slash up or whatever. think of
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: ways to kill yourself because you feel alone, you know,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: you've got no family, whatever. It's those days that I
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: turned around and used them in a more beneficial way
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: for myself.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it sounds like they were handing you the
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: same book each time and you knew what was in
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: it and it probably came to a point where it's
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: not about reading the book again, it's about taking the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: action that you probably knew was there for you.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: That's right. But, you know, we hold on to things
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: sometimes that we don't really know we've got.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think it's about maturing too. I've met
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who've been through the prison system,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: you know, from 5, 10, 15, 20 years. They get
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: to about age 40 and they go, shit, I'm not
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a kid anymore. And what will the rest of my
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: life look like? And will my choices when I was
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: immature be those I have to live with when I'm
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: an old man? Is that something for you? Was that
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: your process? No. I always.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I thought I'll die one day anyway. I wasn't planning
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: to live past 30, if I was honest. And I
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: tried my best to drink and drug myself. But, yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I didn't really have much appreciation for life or an
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: expectation that it would be long. So I was just
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: going to go gung-ho, so to speak.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: How did you think it would end, Jamie?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I thought eventually it would be suicide. It would be
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: probably the way I'd go out because I wouldn't want
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: to let someone get me.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Was that a possibility, though, someone getting you as well?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Nah, I've never really... It's a dangerous business, even if
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: you're an honest drug dealer, so to speak, because people
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: in addiction, they'll set you up. They've got no moral
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: compass when they're deep in addiction. Well, they do, but
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: they don't. They choose to use it as an excuse
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: to do whatever they want. And, yeah, I was prepared
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: either way.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. So why did you survive, do you think? Why
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: didn't you take your own life? And I'm not suggesting
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: people should. I'm going to put a warning on the
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: end of this podcast about that people can get counselling
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and talk about these things because we don't want to
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: dwell on this. But what made you decide life was
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: worth living or at least continuing to exist?
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: When you go through depression, people will know that you
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: have good days and you have bad days. It's those
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: days that you have bad days, if you let them
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: get deeper and deeper, that's when you get into that
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: that darker side where you start thinking, you know, I
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: should just do this, do that. And honestly, I've had
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: a couple of attempts in prison as well that obviously failed.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: I didn't have an appreciation for life. I just was
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: lost and was just using everything as an excuse to
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: keep going. It wasn't until I had no excuses left
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: that I thought, what do I really need to do
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to myself?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, was there a moment where that dawned on you
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: that you had the agency and the strength to make
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: those choices? And, yeah, when was it?
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: So I was in prison and I was already getting
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: charged for my original charges and then I received more
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: charges from the police and then I was found with
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: drugs in my cell. So I got moved and put
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: in the slot and I'd only just been let out.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: And it was that whole just shake-up that I thought, fuck,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I've got to stop doing this. You know what I mean?
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: It's just snowballing now. Like, I could just say it.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking, what if now stuff from my
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: past that comes back to haunt me? You know what?
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And I've never been a God man, you could say.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: But I asked. I said, give me something. Like, give
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: me a direction. And then, yeah, I just started to panic.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: What did he give you? Did you get an answer?
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I've got a calm, I guess. A calm over myself.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Because I'm usually very hypervigilant and very go, go, go, go.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Like always on the ball, always assertive. But that's also
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: covering up the other noise in my head. So I
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: woke up one morning and I had neither.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating. You get a calm in jail. I mean,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: people could hardly imagine that you're in a management unit
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I think we're talking about in Barwon Jail. Paint the
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: picture of what it's like. What's it like to be
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: depressed in a place like that where you're living close
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: with everyone and there's hypervigilance is the only way to be?
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: What's it like to be dealing with a mental health
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: issue within those confines?
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Well, especially when you spend years in a management unit,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: you get to see mental health in all shapes and sizes, forms,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: colours and noises. Not only your own, but other people's.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And it's very real. And sometimes it helps you, sometimes
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: it feeds you. So how you do your jail will
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: really determine on how that plays out for you. If
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: you go to jail and you're in a relationship with
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: a new girl, that can be stressful enough. So most
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: boys go, yeah, hump the missus, don't worry about her
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: while you're in prison, you do your own things, because
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: you just don't need that stress as well. Because nothing's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: worse than, you know, you call your missus, she doesn't answer.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Where is she? You get locked into a cell. You've
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: got to wait until tomorrow. What are you going to do?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Do your own thing. And what did you do? It
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: sounds like you've had that situation. What would be the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: thought process? She's cheating on me. Here I'm stuck away
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and she won't talk to me. Yep.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly. All those thoughts go through your head. And that
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: was my first sentence. I had a girl I was seeing.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Ever since then, nah, never. That was emotional turmoil.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: So it's easier to be on your own in that way?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And tell me, we talked about also in our
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: long conversation about how other inmates treat weakness in those
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: situations and how people get worked over when they come
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: in there. And you've heard that. Give us a sense
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: of what that's like.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Well, prisons have changed over the years, especially the last
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: 10 years. It's very manipulative, very controlled, very targeted. Cooks
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: have got smarter and more ruthless, and the screws have
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: got lazy. So if you put that in a pot,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: it's probably not edible. But you do what you do
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to survive in there. So you could do easy jail,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: stay off the drugs, stay out of the politics, stay
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: in yourself. It's how long you want to do that
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: for is up to you because even that can cause rumours.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Because in the old days when drugs have always been
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: available in jails in some form or other, not all
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: the time, and people did, when they got to jail,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: if they'd been using outside, could find a space where
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: they weren't using and get a bit of clarity. But
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: from what I'm hearing these days, drugs are freely available.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: In fact, you know, there's people making fortunes in there.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Not only the drugs, the tobacco was a good little
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: money earner for me when I was in there. It's
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: not illegal. It's a teabag, so... But apparently, they banned
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: it and just opened up another market.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing. Whenever you prohibit something, you do
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: create a market. We're seeing it on the outside now.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: And how is it getting in there? I don't want
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you to go to fine detail that identifies anybody. but
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: generally speaking, there was actually a story the other day
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: where there was a drone allegedly flying over Townsville Correctional Centre,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: dropping GBH and heroin and God knows what. That sounds
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: like a bit too much trouble to me. Aren't there
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: easier ways?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: There's heaps of easier ways. It's just some prisons operate differently,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: so you've got to find their doors. In the early
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Port Phillip days, you could get stuff through the kitchen
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and the laundry. That's how a mate of mine got
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: a firearm in there. A firearm? Yeah, Port Phillip, look
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: it up. A firearm was found in Port Phillip.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that story didn't end well.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Ah, look, it's jail. It's just a charge they give
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: you outside instead of inside.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: That's right. So, In your, you've had 11 years out
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of your 41, I believe, in jail or in some
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: form or other?
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, I've done seven of the last 10 and
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: that's pretty much, but I've been involved with the law
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: since I was like 12, 13.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And you started in the drug game early,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: very early. How old were you?
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I would have been 12, started smoking weed.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Right, and that's something I say to people when they
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: start to buy weed, they are part of the underworld.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: You are part of the supply chain, and don't forget that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: But you worked your way up the chain to work
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: with some pretty notorious characters.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You say notorious, I say gentleman.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: This is a.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Known to police.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Known to police. That's probably the best way to say
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: it because not everyone's a bad person because you sell drugs.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's it, and I think the... Yeah. So
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: I think you worked with the Moran brothers early on?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: I started off young, yes. Right.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: What did you do for them?
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I used to just bag up pills and deliver them
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: on my bike.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: As a teenager? Yep. Yeah, right. And what were they
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: like to work for?
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Absolute gentlemen.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Absolute gentlemen.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Mark was very well liked, actually. Very well liked. Jason
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: was more of a gangster and people used to be
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: leery of him that you had to watch him in
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: his moods and things. Did you ever see any of
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: that side of him?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: No, I'd never spent that much intimate time with them.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: It was like a paper route, if you could imagine.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Drop off these pills at various places. And so making
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: good money at the age of 12, I mean, you'd
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: been a ward of the state prior to that.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'd been. So this was about, I met them
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: when I was around 15. Yeah, like I'd been already
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: selling weed and speed previous. Right.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Right. And how did the Board of the State thing
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: come about? Because we should backtrack a little bit. We
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: should backtrack a little bit because you're one of the
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: few people I've met on your side of the fence
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: who's actually Jewish. And that surprised me because... Shalom. Because
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: generally speaking, in my experience, Jewish people are involved in
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: white collar crime, not in the sort of stuff that
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: you're involved with. So what's your background, your ethnic background
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: and cultural?
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I reckon that's... It's what you think you see when
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: you say that because there's so many cooks in the
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: good side of the world too. And a lot of
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: them are businessmen just like a drug dealer. You can
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: believe in something and still do wrong. Any religion.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. But it just seems to me that the circles
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: of people are a bit different. And when you talk
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: about people treating drugs as a business, that's what it is.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Because ultimately, you're seeing people buying a product that they want.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: There's massive demand for it, whether it's cocaine or pills
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: or weed or whatever it is. And the people that
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: come into it, I mean, I spent a lot of
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: time with Carl Williams, who you also knew. And Carl
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: was not a tough guy gangster. He was the guy
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that saw an opportunity to supply a market and was
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: very good at it.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: He was a guy who used his envy to his advantage.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's an interesting way of putting it. Explain that
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: a bit.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, we all want things in life that
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: we see other people that have got it. And, you know,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: you can walk by them or say hello to them
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and help them and you still may not get it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: So if you admire something, envy something, desire something, there'll
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: be a way for you to get it. It's something
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I learned.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I think that definitely sums up Carl. I think he...
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: You know, his family was dirt poor. They were, you know,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: in housing in the worst parts of Melbourne and I
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: think they vowed never to go back there. And when
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: George managed to get himself a house up in Broadmeadows,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: that was the first time that they'd owned a house
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: ever in the family. And so Carl, I think, wanted
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: to build on that and he wanted to give his
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: family everything that they'd never had. So envy is a
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: good way of putting it, though.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's every boy's dream, isn't it? To give
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: their family, their mum and dad, you know?
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: That's something.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: It is, it is. So you didn't stay long with them, Miranda.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: I think I'm right in saying that you discovered reasonably
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: early on that working with a small circle of people
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: was the best way to operate. Is that fair?
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: That's spot on. A trustful group of four or five
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: is the best way, and as long as you just
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: stay honest with each other, we'll never break that bond.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I've actually heard about experiences that are quite different, that
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: it's the ones closest to you who give you up
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: in the end. And a lot of people seem to
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: get given up in the end, but you didn't have
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: that experience? Oh, no.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I've lost people that I thought were friends, 100%. But
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: when you separate the drugs, the drug use, and your
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: life from that situation you can build that friendship because
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: i've got mates that when we met we met dealing
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: drugs you know what i mean that's how we met
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: best mate you know for over how many years now
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: i don't know and it's not about drugs we don't
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: talk about drugs you know he doesn't even do drugs
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: hasn't done drugs for years but we're still good mates
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: because we were honest with each other we didn't tried
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: to one-up each other. There was no facade. It's just
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: two blokes having a good time and like the same things.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of people do come into the drug
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: dealing business because they're also users and initially they use
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the use of the selling is to finance their own
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: use but little by little they go, shit, I'm actually
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: a drug dealer. Was that your experience?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I started off because I didn't want to pay for
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: weed because me and two other guys, so back when
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I started smoking weed was $ 25 a gram. So we'd
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: meet up, one would chuck in 10, two would chuck
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: in 10, one would chuck in five and we'd rotate.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: So every time we'd sport, that's how we'd rotate. We'd
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: all chip in and we'd have our session. So I
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: used that as my, I don't know, angle to supply myself.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: If I could get someone to buy off me, then
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not paying for mine. And that was easier than
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I thought.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's extraordinarily common, but few people go to
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the extent that you went to, I've got to say.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: So you go along for a little while doing that.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Long story short, how do we get to the Craigslist idea?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I think I just got back from the Territory and, like,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: mobile phones were evolving. So apps were just started too.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And I was hired one night. We call it, you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: burning the glass barbecue. And... going through all these app scenes, Craigslist.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: It was Craigslist Australia. Come up, went into it, had
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: a look, and there was a section that just said,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: for sale by dealer. And I was like, it's meant
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: to be. So I just started posting. And my phone
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: just didn't stop ringing. It was a gateway that I
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: didn't expect to open with the intensity that it did.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I think the police said that you had... 8,000 clients?
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: You might not want to comment on that, but.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: That seems a lot. Yeah, well, they estimated over 8,000
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: customers a week just from the phones that they seized.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Because back then I wasn't even smart. I was a
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: dumb criminal. I had drawers full of phones, monies full
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: of drugs, like money and drugs just sitting there like
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I wasn't real smart about.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And, you know, a lot of people would say it's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: a very risky way of going because the drug dealer
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: tends to work in a tight circle and I guess
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: they become sub-dealers and the network grows steadily. You're pretty
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: much taking on all comers who came through the ads
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you were posting on Craigslist. Yep.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: When I started getting really busy and I thought I
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: would get a lot of guys, but I wouldn't get
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: many girls. And I thought, well, maybe if I get
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: a girl to be a dealer and post an ad
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: as a female, they feel more comfortable. And that idea worked.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: So I was just... Adaptive to everything around me in
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: just the way it felt to me.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You had a youthful enthusiasm about what you were doing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Very trusting in a way. And so you would meet
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: the clients and just leap in the front seat. How
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: did you know there weren't detectives or other criminals who
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: wanted to hurt you?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I always carry a knife or a gun when I
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: first started. and not scared to let you know that
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: I've got it. But I do it in a cheerful, polite,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: non-threatening manner. But if you catch them off guard, you've
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: already won.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as much as one can be when you're sort
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: of indicating you have a gun to somebody.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: But if you do it with a smile and just say,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: here's this, you've got your money, that's it.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And I guess once you've met that client, The next
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: time it's more friendly, less of a show of force.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, most of the time it is. But then
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: occasionally after a while, some customers get heavily addicted and
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: they think they can try sneaky games and set you
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: up and stuff like that. You've just got to be
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: ready for it.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: So you had to deal with that?
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, on a few occasions.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Can you remember one you'd like to talk about?
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: So the first one, I was working as a baker
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: at Baker's Delight. So I was selling drugs during the day,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: working at night. And I got home. My phone rings.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: It was a friend. And then I hear a knock
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: at my door. And I didn't think anything about it.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Open the door. There's two guys with balaclavas. I was
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: lucky enough that I had, like, a polished concrete veranda
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: and a mat there that as soon as I pushed
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the door shut, it didn't matter how strong they were,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: they just slid backwards. And, yeah, I got the door
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: shut and grabbed the shotgun and chased them down the road. Right.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And that didn't put you off the fact that they
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: knew where you lived and they were playing a visit
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: like that?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: No, I was more upset that it was my friend
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: on the phone who set it up. My circle friend.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Right. You make the circle tighter and tighter, but now you're.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Expanding rapidly and you're moving all kinds of drugs and
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: start selling drugs to undercover police officers on eight separate occasions.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not... Not one of my brightest moments. I've had
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: a few, but that definitely wasn't. But I was at
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: a point in my life where it didn't really matter.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I was using a lot of drugs. When you polyuse drugs,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you become uncontrollable.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the old, was it Scarface? You never get
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: high on your own supply, is that what they say?
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know who said that because I'm pretty
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: sure every dealer does. Not buying off anyone else.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And so what sort of drugs were you using,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: if I could ask?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I've used pretty much everything. I never got into the heroin.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Heroin's never been my thing, and I never got into
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: the GHB. It was just I started off with weed,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: went into speed, went into pills, went into coke, went
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: into LSD, mushrooms, and then the meth cart. And it
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: was just the evolution.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: And was there one that particularly hooked you that was
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: your addiction?
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I've always enjoyed probably weed over all of them more.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: in the sense that I enjoy that feeling. Drugs have
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: just been fun for me. I can't remember a time
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: that I didn't have a good time on drugs. Yeah,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I felt shit after a few days. I'd always have
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: a good time.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I admire your honesty because often when I talk
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to people who've beaten drugs, they give you this whole
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: drugs are evil, drugs are bad, and I feel like
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I'm a shit person for doing them. I always call
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: bullshit because they were doing it because they enjoyed it
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: at the time and people should own that. I think
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: it's the first step to actually beating it properly.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: They only hated the fact that they didn't have the
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: money to keep the supply going. That's what they hated.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: And they had to do shit that they didn't morally
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: want to do, maybe, to get it. When you're a
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: drug dealer and you're making money, that whole thing is
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: irrelevant to them.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also they regretted getting caught. I think that's
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: probably the number one reason for the come to Jesus
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: moment that they have. And I think it doesn't send
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: the right message because kids do discover that drugs are fun.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: And adults have their alcohol, their tobacco, everything else. So
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: it's just a hypocrisy that says kids taking drugs is
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world. It's not good for them.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: But let's also not be unrealistic about what it does
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: bring people. In moderation. Yep. So you're going along nicely,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: or so you believe, even though you're selling drugs to
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: undercover police officers, until February 2015 when you get arrested. Yes.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: What happened next?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I guess it was a reality check because I realised
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: I'd been using a lot of drugs and the comedown
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: isn't fun. That was my first time in prison. And, yeah,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: I guess it was... I had to sink or swim.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: And it's such a contrast. I can't get over that,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that there you are sitting out there with your chickens
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: and we're talking about when you lost your liberty back
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: in 2015. What was it like that first time in jail?
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I fell in love with it within two days. It
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: was my space, if you know what I mean. The hustle,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: that's me there. And like the food's crap, you meet
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: shit people, but you meet good blokes as well. And
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: also was a place where I could stop, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: moving around all the time. I could sleep in the
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: one bed and, uh, you know, just settle instead of
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: moving hotels every day, every second day, every, all the
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: time to, uh, just have that break. Cause when you
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: sell drugs 24 hours a day, you know, maybe six
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: days a week, maybe three days a week. But when
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: you're using, selling, it's a, it's a busy schedule.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: And you've also got three children at this time as well.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't have my first one. I was, oh, 2015, yeah,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: my eldest, Rachel, would have been 14, 13 when I
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: went to prison at first. Yeah. And my younger two
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: would have been very young, three and two maybe.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: So a very hectic lifestyle. I just do my maths. Yeah,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: it's all right. It gets like that. So you're very hectic.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: As you said, dedicated in one of our messages. You
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: were dedicated to what you were doing, trying to raise
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: your kids. I mean, you're using drugs. I mean, could
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: you sleep? I mean, that's sort of a milieu. Can
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: you sleep?
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Well, see, that's the thing about this. You sleep when
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: you sleep. You could do four days up and two
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: days sleeping, or you can do six days up and
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: one day sleeping. You don't really know.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: But you'd always be sleeping with one eye open, wouldn't you,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: given the potential threats that you face?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: One eye open and a dog by my side and
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: a gun.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: That covers it. Get a bit of sleep like that.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: But as you said, in that situation, you were the
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: dumb criminal. Were you in jail thinking, I won't do
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: that again when I come out? I'll go flat out again,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: but with the knowledge of where I went wrong?
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: No, because when I had settled in prison, I realised
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: you can make a lot of money in jail. So
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: it's a little different in the hustles. but you can
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: still make a lot of money. So it didn't really
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: change my perception of what I was going to do
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: when I got out because I was still doing it.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I may have taken a break and changed what I
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: was doing and how I was doing it, but it
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: was still the same thing like I might.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: So it was just probably a safer version of what
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: you've been doing on the outside through Craigslist. You didn't
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: need the app. You had the customer at your door almost.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Well, your customers in jail are a lot more volatile.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And sometimes it can be a lot harder to get
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the money out of them than it is out of
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: a customer off Craigslist.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Right. Because they know every trick in the book.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: They know every trick. And they're not scared to flex
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: over you with a few boys to take whatever you've got.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: So unless you're going to stand up and fight for it,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: you probably won't have it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: And you talked about that bit of anger, rage you
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: had in you. That would have been useful in those
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: scenarios too.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: It has helped me. Unlimited times in my life, but
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: also been detrimental.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: So, okay, so you get through. You were in Barwon
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: the first time, were you? Which job did you spend
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: most of your time?
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: So my first sentence, I did the whole shebang. I
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: did the maximums, I did the medium, and I did
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the C rating out at Darragh. So I made it
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: through the whole formation. The second time, I was a
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: little bit more, what's the word, manicured. to the prison
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: life and know where the money was. The money's not
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: really in the C rating prisons and the mediums are
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: a bit up and down. The maximums, that's where it
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: is because this is where the boys or the girls
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: are doing the long times and people want what they want.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: That's it. I guess the layperson would say maximum security
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: means it's hard to get things in, but it sounds like.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: It's not at all.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: No.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: No. On a scale of 1 to 10, a maximum
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: is maybe 6. Sometimes it's harder to get drugs in
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: the C rating prison because you've got to go walk
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: all the way out to the other side of the
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: fence line without being seen, you know what I mean?
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Which is a lot harder than being in a cell
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: and have someone slip something, you know, on a visit.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Or bring you to the prison point.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: And I think we all know, and this has always
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: been the case, that the correctional staff have been a
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: key link in contraband getting into jails.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: They certainly have. They deny it and they, you know,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: even Corrections Victoria and probably every other corrections facility in
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Australia and the world will deny it. But there's always
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: one bad egg.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Right. And, you know, there's no need to go any
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: further than that. I think we all know what happens. But,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, it just sounds like, why would you bother
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: escaping when you can do business in there and have
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: safety and security, three square meals, even though it's shit food?
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Shit food. Is it really? Is it that bad?
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Look, you get some meals for the first couple of times.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: It tastes nice, but you eat it for years. Most menus,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: they only change summer and winter, and it's the same thing.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of people that don't even eat it.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: They just cook their own food or eat noodles and tuna. Yeah.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: And so I guess any food, if you have it repeatedly,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: is going to be awful and it's prison food. And
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's also, you get the impression that jails
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: are designed to be uncomfortable. If they can give you
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: something that's comfortable, they take it back 10%. And why
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: would they give you, and I've also talked to people
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: who say that they're always hungry in jail. They can
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: never get enough food.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the meals aren't too big. A couple of the
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: prisons will supply breakfast in the morning, unlimited breakfasts. bread
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But the meals are very portion controlled.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: And even over the last 10 years, they've gone from
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: like a one-litre container to a 750, now down to
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: some paper little thing that you've got to basically eat
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: the paper to, to get anything beneficial. They spend a
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: lot of money on tech in prison, but not enough
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: money on stuff that would solve it and make it
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: a working machine.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Right, because the public... wants jail to be hard. They
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: think that if people are treated harshly in jail, that
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: will deter them when they come out. Your experience, what
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: does tough jail do to individuals? Do you see people
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: rehabilitating themselves and going straight when they get out?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Well, the revolving door would tell you straight away that no,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: that's probably not true. But I don't think society wants
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: tough jails or bad, like, stricter jails. They'd want jails
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: that do what they're meant to do. Because if something
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: would happen and your own family member went to prison,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't want to be locked in a cell getting
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: bashed for a crime that wasn't like murder or rape
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: or something like that. You'd want a fair punishment.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think so. I think that's fair enough. So anyway,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: so you get out of that stint and you pretty
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: much go flat out. Again, after that, until you sent
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: me this material. So if there's anything wrong with it,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: it's up to you.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my face is on it. Right.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: So June 2nd, 2021, you get raided in Bayswater North
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and arrested. You're then 39. And the list of charges,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: 37 offences, including trafficking of meth, ecstasy, possession of cocaine, ketamine, cannabis, GHB, Valium, Xanax, dexamphetamine,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: you had some firearms, a loaded sawn-off shotgun, various machinery
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: and equipment used for attempted manufacturing of illegal firearms, property theft,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: stealing a 200K Mercedes-Benz. Was that for a drug debt,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: by the way? Was that from someone?
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I had been paid that for a debt, yes.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. And then a $ 70, 000 lifestyle camper trailer. You were
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: thinking of doing some camping, were you? A bit of off-road?
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Also given to me.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's a problem, isn't it? Drug dealers do
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: say that, don't give me your stuff, give me cash.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: And maybe that was a mistake.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: I've always been that way because I never really wanted
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: to take people's stuff. But when people owe money, you've
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: got no choice. Right.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: And okay. And then you had proceeds of crime, $ 11, 240
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: found during the search. And the one that I'm curious about.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Destruction of evidence.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Destroying $ 3.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: These are master copy record of interview discs. So what
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: was it all about?
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I was asking them for a coffee when they arrested
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: me and they go, no, we'll do the interview first.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: And I said, all right, we'll do the interview. And
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: I'm like, it's a no comment interview. Like, what do
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: you want to do? You know, we did it. I go,
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: you're going to go get me a coffee. He goes, no,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: slam the door. But he forgot to take the discs
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: out of the machine. So I popped them out and
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I just snapped them. And when he'd come back in,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: they were sitting on the table. I said to him,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: they're going, oh, you fucked up, didn't you? We're going
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: to have to do that again.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: You're very cheeky.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Unfortunately, I have good moments.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And during the execution of that search warrant,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: $ 400, 000 worth of combined contraband assets were seized. You were
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: doing well in the business. Yep, yep.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: I was still working every day, six days a week too,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: running my own business.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: So how much were you making from your legitimate work?
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: So I had an excavation business. I was doing a
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: lot of retaining walls and stuff like that. And I
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: was making very good money just in that.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Right. So why did you feel the need to do
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the drug business? As you say, you were intoxicated by greed,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: you could say. Yeah.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've never had an issue with drugs.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I enjoy drugs, you know. All my life I've enjoyed them.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: So if I'm Honestly, it wasn't an issue for me.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I was never hard out for money because I'd still work,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: hung over, high, didn't matter.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You are a hard worker. There's no doubt about that.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And so you go back and you're getting five years
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: this time. Yep. Were you thinking, well, you know, I'm
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: just pushing the reset button. I'm going in there. I
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: know this place. I'll be all right.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Well, so when I got arrested, we were just going
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: through COVID. So you can imagine prison was even worse
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: because we were all locked in for weeks and weeks
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: on end. And staff shortages meant we'd get nothing because
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: there's no one there to do anything. We couldn't call,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: couldn't do canteen, couldn't do nothing because nothing's in, nothing's out,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: no drugs. It's very hard to get drugs in during COVID.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: So prison became real tough. That was probably the time
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: where I wanted to get out And, yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, because suddenly this easy place was not so easy.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: And you're also getting older now. You're about to turn 40. And,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: you know, as I say, things do happen when you mature.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: And you're also getting banged up in the slot, which
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: tell us about that. I mean, were you in the
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: management units at Barwon or were you just being.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Put in the slot? So I was held in– I
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: was in banks here in Gravelia. So they're like long-term
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: management slots. And, yeah, it comes home. Like, if I'm
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: to get arrested, I request to go to Parliament. I
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: request to go to Banksy. That's where I want to go. Like,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: and I will starve myself. I will do whatever it
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: takes until you get me there. That's how I.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Right. The media talks about those units like Acacia, Grevillea, Banksy, Allura,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: I think it's called. Allura, yeah. sterile, soul-destroying, isolated. What's
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: the reality?
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Reality is they're a space that you have no control of.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: You don't open your door. You don't get your own food.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: You don't even get your own toilet paper. Everything's given
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: to you when they want to do it. Otherwise, you're
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: left to your own device in a cell. That's the reality,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: black and white, of management. The canteen at Barwon is brilliant,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: so you can buy heaps of shit to entertain yourself.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: You could get Playstations, you can get stereos, you can
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: get trim equipment, you can get stuff. You're not doing
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: it that hard. That's pretty much every prison. I think
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: people try to paint it as a first impression. So
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: if this is what you get for the first time
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: you're in prison, that's what you think. But until you
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: go through the motions of meeting people, the routine, and
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: you see the benefits you can actually get out of prison,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: you realise it's not that bad. The only thing is
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: the cell that you walk into is probably putrid because
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: whoever was in it before hasn't cleaned. So you're living
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: in some other dude's filth until you clean it. That's
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: probably the worst for me. I hate walking into a
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: dirty cell because I'll spend the whole night cleaning that
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: thing top to bottom to make it my home.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: It's still a 23-hour lockdown, right? One hour out of
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the cell. Yep. That's not tough.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I've spent weeks, probably months, refusing to come out of
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: my cell to things that they should give me but
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: refuse to. And there's ways you can do things because
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: once you learn the system, it has to run how
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: they write it. You know what I mean? They don't
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: have free will to run the prison the way they
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: want to. They get away with some stuff, but they
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: have black and white rules that they're going to follow.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: So once you learn them, You just go above their
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: head and play a different game.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: And you're pretty good at this. I now remember you
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: said to me that at one stage, I think it
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: was in this stretch, you became transgender, but not really. Yes.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Tell us about that.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Look, well, I was in that moment because that's what
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: I wanted. And I'm committed to, you know, getting what
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I want in prison. And I was that man. And
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I was a billet cleaning the unit. There's still a
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: management unit and I found.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: That's the Melbourne Assessment Prison.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I was going through the file cabinet where
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: all the papers are. And I found a Dave Phillips canteen.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: And Matt doesn't sell much toiletries and stuff like that.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: And I go, hey, boss, how... can I order these?
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: He goes, you can't. You've got to be transgender. I said, well,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: how do.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I do that? Because Dave Phyllis Frost is the female prison.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So he told you. What did he tell you?
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: He goes, are you serious? I said, well, I'll go
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: on with it unless... You don't want to let me
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: buy this stuff? Then I'm going to ring the ombudsman.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: I'll start writing letters because I've got nothing else to do.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I'm in a cell 23 hours a day. I'll send
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: 30 letters.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? I'll do something to stimulate
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: the next week of excitement for myself. And he looked
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: at me. He goes, I'm going to have to call
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: the governor down and you'll have to have a CMRC,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: which is like a sit down with the psych and
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: everything like that. I said, well, schedule me in because
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: I've got nothing better to do. And a month later,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: I had my items from DPFC.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: And?
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: I could order it any time I want.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: So you became, as far as the system was concerned, transgender?
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Well, they have no choice because they could deny you
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: and then you create a funnel web of just stuff
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: that they have to deal in the background that they
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: don't want to. You know, I could stand up and
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: lie to you over something all day long if it's
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: going to benefit me in a situation where I feel
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: you could have just given it to me. But no,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: they buckled real quick and gave in, signed me off
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: as transgender.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: So did you have to change your appearance or anything
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: or adopt any new practices?
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: No, because he goes, how do I know you are?
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I said to him, well, what I do in myself,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: in my own privacy, where I feel comfortable is my business.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: And if you want to challenge me on that, I
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: will say that you harass me about it. Black and white.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Which one looks like the bad guy?
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: As you say, you've got time to research these things
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: and you know how to get what you want. So
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: what were you actually after in that situation, I should ask?
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I wanted some body wash. I wanted some flannels,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: like little hand towels. My mate wanted some hair ties.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: I don't have hair, so no good to me. There
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: was only a couple of things. I think I only
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: spent like 20 bucks.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: It's a big price to become transgender, but I guess
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: needs be what they will in jail.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: It is only words and I've got time to kill.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: I've got time to kill.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: And what are your mates thinking when you tell them, listen,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I'm now transgender?
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Do they laugh? Well, they laugh because people know me,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: you know, and they know I'll go on with it.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: But when I told them one of the benefits of
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: being transgender is you're automatically assigned single cell. So when
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: you go to prison, whether you're a full grown man
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: or not, they'll put you in with something. Now, you
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: don't know who that bloke is, when he last showered,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: what he eats, how he shits, or you don't know nothing.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: And I don't know about you, but I don't like
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: another man in my space. So I will extradite him
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: as quick as possible. Disalleviated me ever having to do that.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: And I'm spilling I didn't realize it years earlier.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think I'd be okay with everything
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: except for the toilet business. How's that dealt with when
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: someone wants to do a particularly foul excretion right next
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: to him?
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: The rule is you roll over so you're not watching.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: But if you're comfortable with your mate, it's your mate,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? It is what it is.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: It's part of the punishment.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, having a mate as opposed to someone who you
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: can't stand would make a big difference to the jail
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: you're doing.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: It makes jail so much easier.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But you didn't join the prison gangs. You weren't part
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: of that, although you knew some of the heaviest people
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: in there. It's in Barwon. What was your philosophy about
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: not joining up into these groups?
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: I'm a man. I stand on my own two feet.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: I treat every man the same, and I don't need
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: to get into another man's business is the way I
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: look at it. I'm doing me, and I respect you
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: doing you, and that's just how I am with anyone.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And people see quickly in jail what sort of person
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: you are, how you carry yourself, how you talk, how
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: you move in a unit because they're watching you. They're
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: listening to you. And if you are consistent, you're fine.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: When you start being a snake and coming undone, that's
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: when jail becomes real.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: And we've heard over the years where in Barwon, it's
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: been known that people are now helping police... And that
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: gets around like a wildfire, I'd imagine.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: It's funny you say that because these days it's probably
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: even worse with all this AI because you can take
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: a photo of someone, write a fake police statement and
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: send it in to someone. And that's the paperwork. If
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: there's paperwork on you, that's proof. And when you can
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: make your own proof, it becomes very dangerous. So there's
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: situations in prison at the moment that people are going
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: through because of it.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That sounds deadly and it's very hard to do
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: because I think in those situations where there's any doubt,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt. Just the needle moves very quickly.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Black, white, that's it. Yes or no.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: You talk about hypervigilance. I mean, how are you months
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: later after getting out, how's your physical being? Do you
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: feel different when you're not having to be vigilant like
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: that all the time?
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: So like, I've never ever had issues about being around
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: people or anything. I've always felt safe. I've always carried
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: a gut. I've always felt safe. I've always felt safe
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: because I'm not doing the wrong thing to anyone that
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: would warrant them to, you know, the only offense to
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: me is what could happen if accident. But after spending
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: years in isolation, I get anxiety being around the town
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: and where I am now. I don't have anything. So
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: I go into town and I just want to come
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: back because I feel anxious. And I've never had that
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: before ever. So I don't know if it's come with
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: age and maturing and getting off the drugs. That's probably
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: one thing that I've noticed. That's a big change.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: And you are clean from drugs? Yep. Yep.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Still having a good beer.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Still having a beer. Having a beer. Okay.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because you kind of visualised this life in the
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: last part of your stretch. I think when you were
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: doing those 23-hour lockdowns, you started to get a vision
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: of what life could look like. How did that start?
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: So probably a couple of years, a year or so earlier,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: I'd reconnected with my mum and we were riding like
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: every month. And she'd ask me what I wanted to
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: do when I got out and I didn't know what
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: I wanted to do, you know. And it's very easy
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: to go back to do what I was doing.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I know I'll make money. It's not like I'm going
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: to struggle. You know what I mean? Because that's the reality.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: People get out of prison. They've got nothing. They've got
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: nowhere to go. What do you do? The prison groups
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: will offer you a week in a hotel, clothes and food,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: fantastic services. Where they put you, basically puts you in
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: a hotel where other addicts are using, other criminals have
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: just got out of jail, wanting to use, wanting to
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: make money. And it's a very... or a tipsy, topsy-turvy
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: spot where you can go either way.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: It sounds hellish to me because it's unregulated. You've got
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: the same individuals now who are free and who are
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: on the make, you know, battling with their addictions that
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: haven't really been dealt with. It's a wonder. I think
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: that's like 43% of people return to custody within two years.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised it's not more if that's how they are released.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: That'd be corrections estimate. It's probably at another 20%. Yeah, right.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: You're in the cell there. You're in that lockdown and
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: you're feeling, you know, I think mental health is really
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: becoming apparent to you that it's, you know, you've got
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: a real challenge. So what was your vision and how
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: did you start to work towards achieving it?
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: So, like, I'd been doing work on myself, like, just
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: my emotional being, I guess, and trying to ground myself in,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: Comfort that I'd found being in that cell. Because that cell,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I found something that I'd never had, which was a
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: spot that I felt home. I felt, this is me.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? I'm the only person that
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: can fuck this up for me. Yeah. I don't know
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: how people can envision that. But for me, that was
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: a realization that I need to change that for me.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: I need to get that cell and put it somewhere.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Somewhere where I get the same benefit, but I'm not
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: in jail. I've always liked the bush.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: It's a fascinating point.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Put yourself in the bush.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, put yourself in the bush and it's a place
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: of refuge because it certainly became that for you in jail.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: As you say, you wanted to be in the management units.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: You wanted to be away from the mainstream. But what's
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: the next step? I mean, you've got access to the internet.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Are you looking at land or what happened?
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: So I got out of In November, the services made
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that they were the, I forget the name of them.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: They helped me out so much. They put me up
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: in hotels for like, I think it was nearly three weeks,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: which is more than what they normally do. They got
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: me clothes and they just gave me, and she actually
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: asked me, she goes, what do you need? And I
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: said to her, I've gone, to be honest, I don't know.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: I've gone, but if you just give me some time,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: I'll figure it out. And, uh, that's all I need. Like,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: I don't need to be put by people on what
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: are you doing, where are you going? Like, I need
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: to control my life. I've always been in control, so
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I need to, you know, do that. But it was
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: just different because I wasn't using drugs as my crutch to,
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: And I'd jump up the stairs. I had to actually
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: step up each bloody step. So I was talking to
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: my mum and saying I wanted to buy land while
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: I was in prison. And she would send me stuff
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: off real estate so I could look at it. And
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: I jumped online and I'd seen these blocks of land
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: and I said, just do it. And then I drove
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: and I moved. I didn't look back.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: In how long? How long after you were released did
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you land on that piece of land? Four weeks. And
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: what was there? Nothing?
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: Nothing. Nothing at all. I didn't even know where it was.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: It took me a week to find it.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: That's wonderful. And so what have you built there? What's
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: the setup?
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I come up here. All I had left
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: that the cops didn't see was a little camper trailer,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: and some clothes. I didn't have much. So I come
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: up here with everything that I had. And in suffering heat,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: I got really bad sunburn that blistered and bubbled for
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: two and a half weeks and then bushfires and floods
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: within a month. And I was like, what am I
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: going to build here? And I wanted to build like
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: the container homes was something that I was always watching
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: while I was in prison. And I found a container
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: and went and got it and just being sort of,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: planning my build as i go and just doing it
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: slowly i guess but people probably think i'm crazy because
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: now i've got goats and chickens and like they wouldn't
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: see it as slow but to me this is a
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: nice slow pace this is this is great.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Not bad it's only august end of august and you've
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: done all that.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: I plan to be uh self-sufficient with meat and veg
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: by the end of the year.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Okay and you got some solar or something giving a
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: bit of power.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're running completely off-grid, solo. We've got water. I've
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: got a river 200 metres away. I've got the mod cons.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: I've got the TV.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I've got the air con. I don't want for much.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Right. And back to the start of our conversation, you've
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: understood how empty the greed is and what the true
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: notion of sufficiency is, like the wealthy man wants for nothing.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Not that he's got lots of money, but he wants...
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: for nothing he's got what he needs this has been
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: a long circuitous journey for you to discover something that
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: is fundamental yep how does that feel.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: It's taken me too it's taken me i i'm a
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: bit upset with myself because it's taken me too long
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: to get here as a guy who's always liked to
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: succeed at things that i do i was a bit
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: slow i'll drop the ball on this one.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Well, you need it to mature, and I think that's
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: often what we see, and I just call it maturity
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: when I see people making the same mistakes over and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: over and then coming to a place of wisdom. But
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: it is about people believing in you, and I think
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: also your mum coming back into your life must be
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: a really important moment because she's your Jewish connection. She's Israeli,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: I believe.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: So you discover, you rediscover, I mean, I think being
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: Jewish is as much cultural as it is religious. Has
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: that been... something that's been important to you with mum,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: understanding some of where you came from?
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess that's the difference. I haven't really gone
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: into the religion side of things. I understand basic principles
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: and it's what I admire in it. It focuses, isn't
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: so much on the bad and being the good, but
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: about the acceptance and the understanding and the genuine compassion
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: of everything that is around you. Not just what You
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: see in your little group, but the whole life.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Because you previously had been through the whole Christian Pentecostal experience,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: hadn't you?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Yes. My last foster family and my family, they were
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Pentecostal Italians. And I lived on a church premise with
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: their daughter and then moved into the house with the
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: pastor and the preachers and the sons and and our
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: amazing family. And I was very lucky. I was very lucky.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, you squandered your luck a bit,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: didn't you? I guess that would be something you'd be
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: kicking yourself over, wouldn't you? Like when you talk about
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: wasting time, you had that example and you chose to
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: turn your face away from it.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: This is what happens when you live in a life
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: of an excuse or a reason to do things. And
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: you don't– it's that me world, you know, that we're slowly–
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: Everyone's getting dragged towards, it's about me and my feelings
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: and what happened to me. Why aren't you listening to me?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: If you're not going to listen to me, I don't
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: want to be around. And that's how I thought. You
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? They're the only people that I
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: was ashamed to call when I was in prison. And
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: trust me, I don't get ashamed about anything. I've been
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: strip searched in front of 10 blokes in prison. Doesn't
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: bother me. But I didn't even want to call them.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Because I knew they'd cry. And... It's where, you know,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I can be as tough as I want and the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: facade is, you know, gangster, gangster. But that hurts me.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: And how was that call?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: They all cried. I cried. I felt bad for leaving
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: it for so long. And all they kept saying is,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: when are we going to see you? You know, when
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: are we going to see you? Because I'd go to
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: church after I'd left. I'd rock up on a Sunday
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: morning just to pop in and say hello. The church
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: service would all stop, turn around and, say hi and
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: you know the pastor or the preacher who was on
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: would say oh he's back you know because they always
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: had this they always say to me you're gonna you're
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: gonna be a preacher one day and i laugh at
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: them because i doubt it they always say oh god's
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: got got plans for you okay i'm sure he does
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: yeah someone's kept me alive this long.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Well, that's true. And I guess if you believe in
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing, then, you know, it's a subtle
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: plan that he's got for you and it's unfolding for
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: you now, this next phase of it. And reconnecting with
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: people is so important, which also brings us back to
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons we're speaking today is you've expressed
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: an interest to mend your fences with your kids. I
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: know you're speaking to their mum.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I speak to the mother of my eldest and
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: I've had some communication with the younger to his mum, but...
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: It hasn't been any way constructive.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Okay. So there's two mothers.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, two mothers. And I've got along with the mother
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: of my oldest the whole life. Even after the breakup,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: we've always co-parented. But yeah, I'm in a really tough
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: spot with the younger one's mother. She's a great mum
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: and I'd never ever say anything bad about her. She
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: has her reasons for whatever she wants to do. deny
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: me access. I don't think they're warranted. And especially now
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: my daughters are old enough that I guess it's just
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: something I can't have control of at the moment.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Well, you do have control over it. It's how you
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: respond and it's how you live from here on in
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: that creates the opportunity, the possibility of this. And let's
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: not speak badly because one way or another, they'll probably
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: hear this. They'll probably hear this podcast. So I want
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: you to leave a good impression because, you know, connecting
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: fathers with their children, no matter what the past, is
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: a social good, in my opinion. And it'll help them.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: I guess that depends on the father. I guess that
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: depends on the father.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what kind of father are you going to
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: be if you get another chance?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: A more present one would probably be my first step.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Just being there. Because, yes, I was there, but when
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: you're high or hungover or whatever, preoccupied, you're not really there.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: No, that's right.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: I think I've thought about my kids probably more in
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: the last nine months than I did in the last
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: five years.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: Well, there's hope then, Jamie. But it's all, you know,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: it's a truism. It's all dependent on you because you
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: fuck up again. I mean, suddenly you're 50 and they've
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: moved on with their lives. The world's moved on. And
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: the world doesn't wait for you.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: No, it certainly doesn't.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: So let's look at that next 10 years. What does
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: it look like if things go to plan?
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll be milking goats, making cheese, making yogurt. I'll
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: probably have a really big beard and a great tan.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I hope I will be able to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: share it with the people that mean everything to me.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: I really wish you well. I really wish you well.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: I want this to be a happy– I love happy
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: ending stories, you know, and yours is more unlikely than
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: most because you've come through an era in the Victorian
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: underworld where people got killed for nothing, just nothing.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, it still happens.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: You know that. It still happens. It still happens.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: It still happens. It still happens.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: And that ability, and I bet people have managed, there
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: was one of my sources when I wrote a book
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: called Big Shots about what happened in Sunshine with Andrew
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Venuman and co. It was a fellow called John Occella
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: who'd been part of the whole scene there and been
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: accused of being involved in this, that and the other,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: playing some heinous acts. And he had to absent himself
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: completely from that area. He became a Pentecostal Christian and
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: that was the only way he could get away. and
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: God told him he needed to share the story with me.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: I was very grateful to God for that because it
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: was incredible insight. I can see the same sort of
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: process in you. You've got to physically remove yourself from
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: all the things that were so habit-forming and so easy,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: but ultimately would totally destroy any chance of a normal
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: home life, being a father to your kids, and not
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: looking over your shoulder the rest of your life.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: I guess it's still all new to me. It is.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: I'm doing this clean and sober. I'm doing it step
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: by step, and I'm doing it legally.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, good, good. Well, you can be judged on
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: your actions, not your words, and I've sat with a
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: number of criminals who've told me big things about what
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: they can do that don't happen in terms of going straight.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: I'll be watching you. I'll be watching you.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: Like I said to you, you're more than welcome to
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: bring your swag up and come get a tan, buddy.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: I'll get a tan. Well, I'll have to share your
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: container with you.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I'll set you up in a rooftop tent. Don't you worry.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: All right. Luxury. Okay. I promise I'll turn away if
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: you need to go to the toilet, if we're in
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: the container.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: You'll love my toilet. It's out the back. You get
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: to see all the cows in the morning, watch the sunrise.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: There's no door. Don't worry. It's the best.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: It's exciting. It's a chance to reinvent yourself, Jamie Birchall.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: And I do wish you well. And I think you've
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: got insight and you're offending. I'm not here to judge you.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: My old man was a psychiatrist. I've been judged. Yeah,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: you've been judged. You've done your time.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: I've been judged. Done my sentence.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: Just don't do it again, would you? You haven't got
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: unlimited time. You're 41 now, right? 41, yeah? 44. 44.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Are you 44? Sorry.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 44 now.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: I'll shave some years off you there.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: I'll take 41 if you can give it. Yeah.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: But at 44, you know, you have to make those
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: positive decisions in your life. I really wish you well, mate.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure and an honour to speak to you.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: You've been so honest and so open. Thank you. But
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: the best thing is you're now committed to tape, so
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: you can't go backwards.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: That's it. Lucky I can't destroy them ones, yeah?
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. You can't. No, I won't do this
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: flying around. Yeah.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: Jamie, it's an exciting time for you. Thanks again, buddy.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time today.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you, mate. Have a good afternoon, yeah?
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Jamie Birchall. It's exciting. You know, who knows?
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: what life holds for us, if we can make the
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: right choices eventually. And many people like Jamie, a lot
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: of their choices were made for them early on. And
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: it's only a question of time where they get some
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: insight to be able to change their lives and do
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: something better. And I really hope he does reconnect with
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: his family. And I'm certainly willing to be a part
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: of that if it's appropriate. If you listen to this
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: and you've just come out of jail or you're about
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: to go to jail or you're contemplating crimes, Think about
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: the long term of this. If you're okay with being
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: a good crook, then that's okay. But, you know, being
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: in jail and losing your will, losing your liberty, that's
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: a real thing. Just ask Jamie. If you want to
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: report a crime, always call Crime Stoppers 1-800-333-000. You can
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: also email me confidentially at adamshandwriter at gmail.com and I'll
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: respond to you. This has been Adam Shand for Real Crime.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: and supporting this story. Independent storytelling that shapes the world
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: is what Podshape really cares about. Right now, there's thousands
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: of people listening to this show and our other true crimes,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: and they're completely engaged. More than 10 million Australians listen
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: to podcasts each week. If you've ever thought about advertising
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: your business in a podcast, there's a link to reach
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: out in the show notes or head to Podshape.com to
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: book a free call.