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A Conversation With Mandy Morris Co-Founder of SoFree · The Failure Gap

• Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (00:00) Hello and welcome to the Failure Gap, where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by Mandy Morris. Mandy works to empower executives and organizations to unlock their unique success DNA, the core traits and strategies that drive sustainable growth, resilience and peak performance. She's the co-founder and chief of mental health sciences at soFree, where she leads development of innovative solutions for stress management and focus. Their app leverages patent pending technology to help users achieve calm and clarity in under two minutes, combining neuroscience with cutting edge innovation for real time results. Mandy, welcome to the Failure Gap. Mandy Morris, LPC (00:42) Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me on. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (00:46) Yeah, I think that all of us could use a way to in two minutes get to some calm. So I'm really excited for this conversation. But before we dive into it, I'd love to just give you a minute to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them a little bit about what really lights your fire in this space. Mandy Morris, LPC (01:02) Yeah. So I've been a therapist for close to 15 years. I've been in private practice. My background is in psychology and clinical counseling, and I specialize in trauma therapy. And one of my specialties is EMDR, which is a very specific type of trauma therapy. It's neurologically based and what used to take year and a half to two years of traditional therapy to get people to a place of breakthrough or relieved from any post-traumatic stress symptoms or anxiety or depression, we can now do it anywhere from like five to 15 sessions. So as I've gone throughout my career, one of my biggest joys has been working with leaders and business owners and entrepreneurs. And funny enough, surprise, not surprise, that the more they became more free from the things that they consciously or subconsciously knew that were weighing them down. or resolved any emotional or psychological blocks, the more the businesses grew. So imagine that. And in that journey, I have gone into the executive psychology coaching route. And as an entrepreneur myself, I love working with other high achievers and high performers to get to the next level. And often there are these hidden forces that are holding us back, which is why we get stuck in the same patterns over and over. And so part of what I do is to make what's subconscious conscious so we can work through it very quickly and effectively so that you don't keep hitting those ceilings or keep repeating those same patterns over and over, whether it's in business or in life or relationships or what have you, because everything is all connected. One of the things that I always tell people is that you can't check your baggage at the door just because you go to work. doesn't work that way. Our brain is wired how our brain is wired. And you see the world the way you see it because of your experiences and your own programming that your brain has and how you process things. So I really, the short answer is, is I help people get unstuck. And that's what I love to do. And the other part of it is what you just mentioned, the app that I'm doing with my brother. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (03:07) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well I think it's exciting to do both, right, to have that human connection where you're really helping people get unstuck and then giving them a way, leveraging modern technologies to stay unstuck and to continue down that path. So it's a really nice integration of what's possible today while pulling on some very proven time-tested techniques and ways of working with people. Mandy Morris, LPC (03:37) Yeah, absolutely. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (03:39) Yeah, you know, I think that so many people say, I want to feel better. I want to get unstuck. want to focus on my wellness and mental health is important. And they all agree that that's a good idea. But many of us really struggle through the failure gap with that struggle to get aligned and actually do the work to feel better and to get unstuck and to prioritize mental health. So I'm just curious for yourself when you see people show up in that way, which I'm sure you see a lot of people who agree that it's a good idea and struggle to do it. What do you think gets in the way there? What's what's what are the blockers for people really getting aligned and doing the work? Mandy Morris, LPC (04:18) For sure. So our brain is wired for familiarity. So it's not wired to make us happy. It's wired to run as efficiently as possible. And so it'll default to what's familiar. So if, for instance, you grew up in a home where there was chaos, your brain might feel more familiar in chaos. If You you grew up in an environment where you were maybe forced to stay small or you didn't really have much of a voice or whatever it may be. You may find that you struggle to speak up or you overcompensate by being the loudest one in the group. You know, so our mind is going to try to operate efficiently and effectively and what was used to help us survive and get through our experiences in early childhood is the very thing that will keep us stuck now. So one of the stories I share often is sort of my own journey of when I realized I was stuck and what was that all about. So when I was little, I remember very distinctly on the playgrounds in my third grade, I didn't have many friends at the time. had hair out to here, these big red glasses. didn't have braces yet. I painted a picture of me being very conscientious of the way I look because I was picked on that a lot. And one day at recess, I asked one of my friends, how come you hang out with her more than me? These are the two friends I hung out with. And without missing a beat, the girl said, because she's prettier than you. And they walked off on the playground and I was there crying and I grew up with two older brothers, so showing emotion at home to them would only make it worse. And I had internalized this belief that if any real or perceived negative social interaction happened, must be there's something wrong with me. And that small experience, while that isn't necessarily what someone would think is traumatic, It is an experience that laid a seed of doubt about myself. And from there, I can see in hindsight how the people pleasing behaviors happened, how lack of boundaries, anxiety, social anxiety, all these things start to develop that ultimately landed me in a really toxic marriage. And I remember as a therapist sitting in a therapist office, I was a new therapist at the time. him handing me a handout that I gave to my clients. And it was the power and abuse cycle, cycle of abuse, power and control wheel handout. And essentially was asking me, what's going on in your marriage? And I remember having so much shame and thinking to myself, how did I not see this? I'm an expert in my own field and yet I'm stuck. And what was going on behind the scenes is that there was this subconscious belief that I don't matter, that I'm not important. So what do I do? Is I end up in a relationship where I don't matter. And the turning point for me was when I had this realization and I decided that I need to start acting in a way that where I make myself matter. And that's when I started speaking up for myself and standing up for myself and ultimately getting out of that situation. And so many people stay stuck because there is this subconscious, know, many people know it as a limiting belief. I've really changed my language around that. I refer to it more as a limiting decision. We don't make the decision when it first happens, but our behavior is the thing that is going to let you know whether you're stuck or not. And so there are these hidden forces and these hidden pools that keep us in the same bad jobs, the same bad relationships, the same negative self-talk, the same imposter syndrome, or whatever it may be that as humans we all feel. but it's going to go back to this old neurological wiring from a belief you have about yourself that was formed forever ago, but you just haven't had the right tools in order to learn how to rewire your mind, create new neural pathways to get unstuck from Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (08:50) I love where you started this, which was saying, the brain is not wired to make us happy, it's wired to be efficient. And that it's really efficient to stay stuck in those patterns because you know how to live there. And so you stay there. And I really appreciate, Mandy, you sharing your personal experience with that because I think we can all relate in different ways to that experience of being stuck and not even being able to see it for yourself. Mandy Morris, LPC (08:56) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Come on. Mm-hmm. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (09:17) even when you're an expert in that space. So thank you for that story. Mandy Morris, LPC (09:21) Yeah, yep, yeah. And it's so true that what's familiar is also the thing that is known. And so the unknown is more scary. And people wonder, we'll just, you Eat healthier, drink less, do this, do that, be more assertive, be, you know, whatever that's seemingly easy. Just do it. It's like telling an anxious person to calm down. Like, yeah, we've thought of that. know, because that's the thing is that it's not, and this isn't, the things that keep people stuck aren't intellectual issues. You're a smart person, I'm a smart person. A lot of human beings, a lot of smart humans out there, the high achievers I work with all exceptionally Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (09:43) Yeah. Just do it! Right. Yeah, yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (10:07) brilliant people, but it's a different part of the brain. So those stuck patterns, those beliefs, that's lower level fight, flight, freeze, amygdala center part of the brain. And where our logic is, is up here in the prefrontal cortex where we do all our rational thinking and decision making. So you can have the smartest of humans be stuck in a pattern. And the obvious answer is usually the hardest thing to do because because of how you've been conditioned and wired, your brain's been wired, and ultimately what you subconsciously believe about yourself. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (10:43) Yeah, I like to say you can't out logic and emotion. Yeah, and we see that actually in business a lot. I think there's a lot of parallels to how we work on ourself and how we're showing up to how leaders show up for each other in, especially enterprise level leaders, high achievers, those people that are very senior in the organization, how they're showing up together as a team to lead the organization forward. And we often see teams that are stuck in patterns of behavior. Now, obviously, they might not go as far back because they might have only been a team for a finite amount of time. But the behaviors that people bring in are informed by, obviously, individual experiences, but they also have experiences of working together that have been successful or not successful. And so then the brain kind of says, OK, well, I don't want to go back there. how do we maintain stasis? There's a big push towards How do we just stay in stasis rather than trying something new and different? Because that's very uncomfortable in a group setting. Mandy Morris, LPC (11:42) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And part of the group dynamic is all the different personalities and all the defenses that go along with that. And can people show up authentically as themselves in a group setting? And I think that's a really important question for people to consider when they're trying to create good group dynamics and culture is have we created a space for people to to feel safe enough to be authentic with their thoughts, their ideas, their voice, because everyone feels valued, seen and heard. And those with the larger egos are also checked. And there's a compassionate sort of way to navigate those types of personalities that make allow them to be the leaders that they are, but without the ego. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (12:36) Yeah, I think that's interesting because I have had executives say to me, know, hey, we're supposed to have people bring their full selves, right? Be authentic. And I am authentically an extrovert. I'm brash. I'm big. Like, I have strong opinions and I should be allowed to say those things. Right? And there's this idea that, you know, for bigger personalities, that some of this work around how do we create psychological safety for people across Mandy Morris, LPC (12:50) Thank Mm-hmm. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (13:04) the team or within the workplace means toning down some of those bigger personalities in ways that feels that then they're left feeling like, I'm not bringing my authentic self to this. And so what are your thoughts on that as you think about that idea of creating that space for all voices to be heard? And I like your connection to the idea of taking the ego out of it. Mandy Morris, LPC (13:26) Yeah. So the lower the insecurity, the bigger the ego. So ego and insecurity are inversely related. So someone's insecurity is lower, the ego gets louder and bigger. So that's something to be aware of with people. And when I hear someone say something like you're talking about, well, that's just how I am. And I'm just going to say what's on my mind and they have no... containment or filter. concept of a strong back and a soft front. You can stand on your truth and be authentically yourself and express your opinions and firm in what you believe, but you have to have a soft front about it because the reality is, that especially in a team dynamic, you're dealing with other people and emotions have to matter. Feelings matter. And I especially a lot of the executives that I've worked with in leaders, the concept of having really strong emotional intelligence isn't always something that's at the forefront of everybody's mind. But the very first thing that lights up in the brain when there's an interaction or a conversation or even when you go into a new environment is the emotional center part of the mind. And then this part of the brain makes thoughts, decisions, and justifications based off of that feeling. And so to not consider how you're perceived or consider how things come across or want to make sure that people emotionally feel safe, then you are not going to get what you want out of that conversation. And you're not going to lead well. And people are going to be more dismissive of what you say when they feel the ego present. because I don't know if you've ever experienced a really, and when I say ego, is the person who is, maybe needs to be right. The person who maybe isn't letting others talk or is dominating the conversation or up on their high horse a bit, things like that. And... I don't know if you've ever been around someone like that, but your body senses it. Your body senses it before you even know what to think about the person. You just feel tense. You just feel tense. You feel the vibe, you feel the energy, because that's what happens. Our body picks up on information before it makes it to our brain. And so the way you carry yourself, the way you speak and how welcoming and warm you are or aren't is going to set the tone for what people actually hear. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (15:41) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that's so interesting. do think like anyone who's ever, you know, picked up a teenager from high school who's had a bad day knows how fast you pick up on the energy, right? They don't have to say anything. They just, you know, get in the car and you're just like, okay, this is going to be a long drive. Yeah, because we feel that we feel that in people so strongly. And I do think you can walk into a room into a meeting and know right away who those personalities are. Mandy Morris, LPC (16:16) Yeah. huh. Exactly. Yep. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (16:32) I know we talk with people a lot about the space between intention and impact. So what you intend is not always the impact that you have depending on how you deliver it, right? So you might intend to be, you know, getting your opinion out there or holding your ground or whatever it might be, but the impact could be very negative because of how you're doing it. Mandy Morris, LPC (16:43) Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Good intentions don't always get people where they want to be. And that's the reality. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (16:59) Yeah. Yeah, so you have to make some choices about how you want to be in the space and on the team and in the room if you want to have the impact. If the impact is more important to you than your intention, then you might have to change how you're showing up. Mandy Morris, LPC (17:14) Absolutely, 100%. Yeah. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (17:16) Yeah, yeah, I think that's so interesting. And I think what you're calling attention to is that this is, we have to recognize and acknowledge that we might be bringing deeply rooted impulses into how we're reacting to things. And that a leadership, a way to level up your leadership is to be able to check in on those impulses and understand them a little differently so that you can get to the impact that you want to have. Is that fair to say? Mandy Morris, LPC (17:28) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is fair to say. Understanding sort of the nature of why there is conflict or why people get defensive or why team dynamics don't work or why even just relationships, friendships, romantic relationships don't work sometimes is at the heart of a lot of conflict is people feel that their character or their intentions are being attacked. And that isn't always what's happening, but that's how it feels. And so the more you can be clear upfront before the conversation, before the meeting about what the intentions are, and you can frame a conversation about what you want the outcome to be before it happens. The more clear you are around that and how you communicate that, the more everyone's going to have better understanding and it's going to operate being on the same team. So my intention. is for us to brainstorm this conversation for everyone to be heard so that by the end of it, we can reach a consensus on what the next step is. Or my intention is to bring to light X, Y, and Z things so that by the end of this conversation, we can fill in the blank and you're framing it ahead of time. Find that to be a helpful thing for people to do. It's like, you know, even if you're talking to a friend or your spouse, being able to say, I don't need you to fix this. I just really need to vent about how I'm feeling because I need some encouragement. Because if you've ever been in a conversation where the other person is trying to fix something that you know can't be fixed and how infuriating that is, it's like, I just want to share how I feel. ⁓ I mean, it's the same type of thing, even in group dynamics. So stating your intention upfront before the conversation happens is going to save a lot of misunderstanding. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (19:20) yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know for me as a leader that has been an interesting technique to experiment with because you brought up the example of brainstorming sessions. for me, sometimes my intention is that we're creating the space for my colleagues to participate and ideate and to bring their best thinking to the table. But because I have a strong voice and I have a strong vision of where we need to go and what we need to do, that gets in the way. energetically, no matter how hard I might work for that space to come to life, my energy can get in the way of that. And it has taken me time to grow into understanding that more and understanding the impact that that has, and how my obligation is to get to the impact that I want to have, which is to hear the ideas of others. So I need to regulate how I'm showing up energetically in that space. And that was a big eye-opener for me many years ago when I realized what was happening there. Because I did have that feeling of, I should be able to bring my ideas too, right? But when there's a power dynamic, you actually have to be especially careful about that, is what I've learned over time. Mandy Morris, LPC (20:45) So what's your first cue that like, I'm getting back into that old way of being and how do you bring yourself back into that curiosity? Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (20:52) Yeah. Well, I think what has worked for me and what I've worked to refine over the years is that it can't happen in the room. It has to happen beforehand. And I need to just say it's almost like a meditation at that point, right? Where I'm going to meditate, which means I'm going to really focus on being present in the moment and not spinning out to try and solve the problem of the day or whatever. I'm going to take this time to just be present. Mandy Morris, LPC (21:08) Mm-hmm. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (21:21) And so if I'm going into that kind of session, I have to put all of my big ideas and thinking to the side and be really present for other people's ideas and not contribute mine. Like I have to actually turn that off because the minute that I switched into that, the strength of my voice creates an energy that is problematic. So not problematic in a negative way, but just it doesn't get me to the impact that I, or to the outcome that I want to get. Mandy Morris, LPC (21:29) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. And what you're doing from a neuroscience perspective, when you do that, you set that intention beforehand and you kind of go ahead and play out how you want the meeting to go in your mind. It's the same thing that athletes do before they go into a game, before they go into a meeting. know, Michael Phelps, I believe was the last gold medal, one of the recent gold medals that he won, the moment he hit the water, his goggles broke. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (22:17) Mm. Mandy Morris, LPC (22:18) And they were like, how did you do that? He had run that race in his mind so many times through visualizations, through meditations, through just thinking about it with all of his senses that he had formed enough neuro pathways to be able to do that race blind, which is incredible. And so when we visualize, when we set the intention, when we tell ourselves how it's going to go and know and reflect before doing the thing, Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (22:35) Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (22:47) it's more likely to stick because you've actually formed some neural pathways and our brain doesn't know the difference between imagined and real, so you're more likely to play that out. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (22:57) Ugh, our brains are so dumb. Mandy Morris, LPC (22:59) my Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (23:00) know the difference. That's so funny. But it's true. And you know, I would say too, in the example that I gave of myself, it actually is not tied to a big ego. It's my excitement and my like, energy around it. Like, I'm so excited to be doing this brainstorming session or something. And I have like, I'm brimming with ideas. But that level of intensity is actually what gets in the way of other people participating. Mandy Morris, LPC (23:12) Yes. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (23:26) So I have to monitor that and bring that down in order for other people to be able to have space. And so it's less about arrogance or not welcoming other ideas. It's just genuine enthusiasm that gets I get a little over my skis with. Mandy Morris, LPC (23:43) Yeah, for sure. Which is very common, especially for people with high visions and dreams and aspirations. And I can totally relate to that because I'm an ideas person and I have a notebook full of all the ideas. If someone says one thing, I'm going to think of another idea and I want to voice that. And yeah, it back to passion and excitement. it sounds like you've figured out a way to harness that passion. in a way that is most productive for you and the team and is implemented and that energy is used in the right time and in the right space. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (24:19) Yeah, yeah, I think that part of for me, the safety valve is knowing that at the end of the day, I do always have the opportunity to explore my own ideas. But there's a time and a place for it. And how do I create that time and place? And so I to be really just very intentional about what how I'm showing up in those spaces. Mandy Morris, LPC (24:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah, having boundaries around your energy in that way. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (24:41) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, this is so interesting as we think about that gap between agreement and alignment. I think a lot of people agree that they would like to have get to the outcomes that they want and have the impact that they want to have or that they imagine having, but they struggle to really identify what's getting in the way and what's blocking it. And I think what you've offered up are some great ideas about how can you think about your brain as an instrument that you can tune and that you can adjust and you can challenge yourself to work on the source and not the symptom that you're seeing, right? How do you get back to what's causing this, not just how's it manifesting? Mandy Morris, LPC (25:20) Yeah, yeah. And I would say one starting point for people who are thinking, well, I feel stuck in an area where maybe it's more of an awareness around not just being where you want to be. You know, had, I'm thinking about a couple of clients where they love what they're doing. They're pretty successful. They just haven't moved forward in the last few years the way they want to move forward. And so there's a sense of stuckness there. And one of the things to start to identify is like, what is the noise in your mind? We all have noise in our mind. Our mind doesn't shut up. It's either in the past, present or future. When it's too future focused, I'm not talking about like setting goals, but you know, staying too far ahead or in uncertainty or in worry, you know, that's more the anxious brain. When we're too much, too stuck in the past, that can become more depressive in nature. so the noise is the automatic thoughts that tell a story that you may not entirely have evidence for. Excuse me. So that could be, you know, kind of thinking about some of the clients I work with, you know, some of their noise might be a feeling of I'm too much or a feeling or a or thoughts around what if they think I'm stupid so I don't want to say this or what if I'm a burden or it could be noise around, other people don't, I'm the one who knows best. It could be sort of more that ego driven self talk but there is noise in our mind and not all the time. It's usually. I tell people, think about what's the noise in your brain on a bad day when you're at your worst. That's going to be the most telling. And if you can identify that, start to reflect on where did I learn that? Where is that coming from? Remember, it's all wiring. The past is present whether we like it or not. And how do you step into changing Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (27:11) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (27:31) those thought patterns and acting in a way that is the better or the best version of yourself. Like the example that I gave you before, I was stuck in something and my behaviors, my niceness, that was actually not niceness, it was people pleasing. That was rooted in a belief of feeling like I don't matter. And so despite how I felt, I had to shift. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (27:47) Yeah. Hmm. Mandy Morris, LPC (27:56) the way I acted, even when it was hard. You know, having a boundary, even though that was really scary, know, speaking up, you know, for, it could be a lot of things for a lot of different people, but, you know, if you can identify what the noise is and start to trace it back to what does that make me feel about myself? What does that make me believe about me when I start to think these things? And then start to make subtle, Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (28:04) Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (28:24) shifts around your behavior and catching those thoughts. One of a kind of a cheesy therapy saying, but I like it because it sticks, is catch it, check it, change it. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (28:36) Catch it, check it, change it. I like it. Mandy Morris, LPC (28:37) Yep. Yeah. Catch the thought, check it. Is it helpful? Is it not helpful? Is it true? And then, and then change it. Cause just like with our elite athletes, our high performers. what we tell ourselves is going to create the neural pathways that dictate the outcome. So we have to be mindful of that. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (28:55) Yeah, love that. You want to catch it, check it, change it. I haven't done therapy, I guess. So that's not familiar phrase to me. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it's gonna stick with me. It is a sticky phrase. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. You know, I think about all of the leaders that we work with at Carrick and Scroop, and we're often saying to them, it's kind of one of our catchphrases around Carrick and Scroop that nothing changes until someone changes, and that someone is probably you. And I think Mandy Morris, LPC (29:07) Yeah. I love that. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (29:24) Yeah, I think that's also part of this, right, is taking ownership for how you're showing up and working on that first. And so often it's about other people, right? Well, if only that person would do something differently, then this would all work. So how do you really start with yourself and think about how you can regulate how you're showing up? And that might mean having boundaries, which says if another person behaves in a certain way, you're going to respond differently. Mandy Morris, LPC (29:30) Yes. Yep. Yep. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (29:51) You're not going to engage in the old patterns that the two of you are in. it doesn't mean just accepting what everybody else does and only working on yourself. But it is, I think, an important component of leadership, especially at an enterprise level, where you have to make very tough decisions and you have to make a lot of tradeoffs between what is what's going to get money and what isn't at the end of the day. Right. There's not an infinite amount of resources to go around. How you negotiate that really does tie back to how you're showing up as a leader in that space. Mandy Morris, LPC (30:10) You heard? Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (30:19) And both, know Stephen Covey talks about seek first to understand and then to be understood. And I always remember hearing from him one time about the fact that so many people stop seeking to be understood. And you can't just always be in the seeking to understand space. You also have to seek to be understood. You have to do both of those things kind of equally well. And that's what I'm hearing you reflect on too is that. Mandy Morris, LPC (30:24) Mm-hmm. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (30:44) that that's part of finding your voice and understanding that you do matter and your energy has to be regulated on both sides of those coins. Mandy Morris, LPC (30:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And one of the biggest losing strategies is the need to win or be right. And when it comes to relationships and teams and dealing with people, that will always make you lose. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (31:06) Hmm. Mandy Morris, LPC (31:19) If you end up losing relationships, end up losing business and you end up losing meaningful connections. so in order to do that is having the awareness enough to know what is going on within you. What are your buttons? are your, you know, when people say, do certain things, the things that either set you off or make you really insecure or, you know, and understanding that on a compassionate level. and being able to lean into other people when you don't agree with them with curiosity. Because if you were that person with their lens and their life experiences, you would probably be thinking and doing the same thing. But people get so hung up on being right or trying to convince you to understand my point of view that then it ends up damaging. relationships and productivity and meetings and whatever, and now you have to go into repair mode before you can get back into being top-notch or functional again. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (32:20) Hmm. Yeah, yeah, and really making the decisions that you need to make for the business. Yeah, yeah. And so much of that can be, you know, as you've said, rooted in deep histories that individuals have, can be culturally informed, it can come from lots of different spaces. But if at the end of the day, your goal is only to win for yourself, then yeah, you'll be on a destructive path as a as an enterprise level leader in an organization. Yeah, yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (32:25) Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, absolutely. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (32:49) Well, Mandy, this has been such an interesting conversation. I could probably talk to you for hours, but I would love to kind of wrap up on two quick questions. One is if you were somebody said to you, OK, Mandy, what are two or three things that I could do today that would help me to move from agreement to alignment around a goal that I have? What's going to help me to get unstuck out of this? And you've given us a couple of great, great little tips along the way here. But if you were just going to round up two or three things. Mandy Morris, LPC (32:53) Thank Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (33:17) that one of our listeners could try to get unstuck from something, what would you suggest to them? Mandy Morris, LPC (33:22) First step would be to identify what the thoughts, like the automatic thoughts are, the cognitions, so the internal triggers, so the internal thoughts and the external things that happen that are playing a part of that. Bring that into awareness. And once you bring that into awareness, then begin to ask yourself, You know, if you want to go back for more understanding, you can think, oh, well, what's the earliest time I remember feeling this way? And why, why am I, why do I think I've been programmed this way? You can do that work. Um, but either way is begin to think about what would success look like. And despite how I feel, what would that kind of, what type of thoughts would that person have? What types of behaviors would that person have? And literally every day, write down whatever those things are that are working towards your goal in the form of I statements as if they've already happened. if I'm someone who is trying to be a better leader, because I know that ultimately that's gonna make the company grow. However, I find myself being really insecure or I find myself, you know, creating conflict with other people and I know that that's an issue, then I may write down as a part of my daily practice that I'm a leader that hears other people or I'm a leader that is confident or I'm a... Blank, whatever it is, start building that into your neuro pathways. Athletes do this all the time. know, runners who want to run six minute miles, who don't yet will say, I run six minute miles, even though they don't, but they're building that into their wiring. Right? So we have to start to change the way we think about these stuck things, because the belief about it is part of what's keeping you stuck. so. That can be a really practical practice around that. And the second part to that is identify what the emotion is. Because so often, to your point earlier, is we try to logic our way out of our emotions. Something wants your attention. Is it anxiety or fear, or is it sadness, or are you feeling frustration or resentment? What is the feeling? And sit with that. and try to understand it. We push down painful emotions all the time. It's part of the nature of being human. We want to avoid pain and discomfort, but our feelings are data points. They're indicators of things that we need. And what could be happening is that you actually have an emotional block, that there's some fear or anxiety that needs to be better understood so that you can move through that emotion so you can get unstuck or move through that anger, whatever the emotion is, that resentment. which is often rooted in not being able to set boundaries. And so our feelings are indicators of things that we need. So we have to really lean into what that is and make space for it. Because what we resist persists. The more we push feelings down, the louder they get. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (36:41) Yeah, those are some great ideas to try and I they also sound Straightforward and I would just say to people who are listening in you know This is work to do right so some of them are easily easy and accessible and they take they take a little effort. Yeah Yeah, as anyone who's Mandy Morris, LPC (36:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And even if that is for the first 30 seconds of an uncomfortable feeling, you just sit with it and you put a name to it, right? Versus pushing it down. You just identify one thought, know, do it in little bits. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (37:07) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that little bits that you can take on, you know, small steps done consistently over time lead to big changes, right? Yeah, yeah, thank you. Those are some great, great ways for people to start to lean into this work. And I would again, remind people that this is applicable not just to your own personal life, but how you show up in your organization as a leader. And the strength of your leadership voice really does depend on your ability to Mandy Morris, LPC (37:22) Yep, absolutely. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (37:41) monitor, control for, and also bring the best of yourself forward so that you're doing the same for others in that space. And I don't want that to get lost in what might feel like self-work, it's actually also leadership work. I know, Mandy, that you work with leaders. Any example of someone who's really tackled this and where you've seen them be able to move through some of the work that you're talking about to find that leadership voice in a new and different way? Mandy Morris, LPC (38:09) So the example that comes to mind encompasses quite a few individuals that I've worked with. And it is the leader. So a lot of times a company will hire me to work with their CEO or someone else in their leadership team. And a lot of these people have gotten the business to the success that they're at. And they are the Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (38:17) Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (38:38) the driver of why they're making the revenue that they're making and they can't do without that person. However, there's usually some, some issues that are happening within the internal team or within their relationship to other people in the company. And that's going to go back to, an EQ and emotional intelligence issue. So, you know, thinking about one person that I've worked with who represents a lot of people, but Part of this individual's issue was that really great at what he does engineer, but doesn't know how to communicate well doesn't know how to have that soft front and You know work is work. So I'm gonna just be direct and and there's nothing wrong with that except You're creating a perception that You're not approachable that you you won't listen to other people's opinions and that what they have to say doesn't really matter. And that's not the person's intentions, but there's not been a development around the ability to use, manage, and perceive emotions in yourself and in someone else, which is the basis of EQ. And so the more, for instance, I've worked on this with these people, the... the more people are coming to them, the more ideas are floating around that never would have floated around before, the more they feel in a part of a team versus everyone's on their own little island within the company. And we only speak when spoken to and we do this one thing and then that's it. And it's more mission driven now. it's a... People aren't as stressed about reporting to this person and things like that. And the person hasn't really changed what they do other than they become more emotionally intelligent. And that ultimately is increasing their revenue. And that's what people don't realize as a big part of leadership is what used to be the soft skills are now the new hard skills because we are as humans, are not Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (40:35) Yeah. Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (40:51) thinking beings that feel, we are feeling beings that think, and we have to be treated as such. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (40:57) Yeah, well, I think that's a great parting thought for everybody. are not, we are not thinking beings that feel we are feeling beings that think did I get that right? Yeah, I think that's a great, great reminder for everybody that this this space and these are not soft skills. These are very hard things to tackle as leaders. But when you do the work, you are able to unlock untapped potential in your organization. Mandy Morris, LPC (41:06) Yep, you did. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (41:22) that will drive growth and success for you as a leader. So if you want to learn more about this, Mandy, you want to give a shout out to your app or to your website, whatever might work for you and let our listeners know where they can find you. Mandy Morris, LPC (41:36) Yeah, great. And thanks again, Julie. I really appreciate you having me on. It's been a wonderful conversation. And if you want to connect, you can go to my website, mandyemorris.com. And there's also information about my one-on-ones and group coaching, as well as soFree, the app that will help reset your nervous system in under two minutes. It's currently for iPhone users who will have Android out eventually. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (41:38) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mandy Morris, LPC (42:02) But if you want to learn more information about that, can go to my website, mandymorris.com, or that has the link to soFree, or getsofree.com. Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (42:13) And we'll put the links in our show notes as well. So, Nanny, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. For all of our listeners, I hope that you've taken away a few good nuggets from this. I want to go all the way back to where we started, which is that the brain is not wired to make us happy. It's wired to be efficient. And so if you are stuck in an efficiency loop and you want to be happier, here's some great tools and resources that you can leverage to try and find that space for yourself and for your team. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to like and share and comment on it. We love all of your feedback and we'll see you the next time on the Failure Gap. Thanks, Mandy. I'm going to stop the recording real quick. Mandy Morris, LPC (42:48) Yeah, thanks.