Latest / The You Project / #2070 Is What I'm Doing Working? - Dr. Lillian Nejad

Transcript

#2070 Is What I'm Doing Working? - Dr. Lillian Nejad · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Okay, eight team, It's Harps and it's doctor Lillian. It's
0:03
Speaker 1: a you project. It's us and you. It's a Monday
0:06
Speaker 1: here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne. It's been a
0:10
Speaker 1: we could say, an interesting twenty four hours. In Australia,
0:12
Speaker 1: it's been a tragic twenty four hours. We're going to
0:15
Speaker 1: have a little bit of a chat about or what's
0:17
Speaker 1: been going on, just like many people have been chatting.
0:20
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know that we're going to
0:23
Speaker 1: come to any significant realizations or conclusions or solutions. But
0:27
Speaker 1: I think nonetheless, considering we are a show which is
0:32
Speaker 1: about the human experience, the good and the bad, the
0:36
Speaker 1: peaks and the troughs of psychology, the emotion, the physiology,
0:39
Speaker 1: the sociology of being a person in the middle of
0:43
Speaker 1: other persons, it'd probably be negligent and reticent of us
0:47
Speaker 1: if we did not open that door and have a
0:50
Speaker 1: bit of a chats at the very least. But before
0:53
Speaker 1: we do that, my friend doctor Lillian is back in town.
0:57
Speaker 2: High Hi, Craig, how are you here?
1:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you've been a little bit flat. We'll
1:04
Speaker 1: talk about that in a moment. What's been happening but
1:08
Speaker 1: more broadly, what's going on with you. We haven't spoken
1:11
Speaker 1: on the show for a little while. Any a couple
1:14
Speaker 1: of months, any updates, anything we need to know.
1:18
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I feel like every minute of every day
1:21
Speaker 2: has been fully accounted for. It's been a very, very hectic,
1:27
Speaker 2: busy period of time. Not necessarily in a bad way,
1:34
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, I'm I am in need of I
1:39
Speaker 2: can feel, especially after yesterday. I mean, we can talk
1:43
Speaker 2: about that, but I feel like I need downtime and
1:48
Speaker 2: I need to just be in a cocoon for a
1:51
Speaker 2: little bit and not have to do or worry about anything.
1:56
Speaker 1: I feel like we, I don't know, maybe just subconsciously
2:02
Speaker 1: stumble towards like we go, oh my god, only three
2:05
Speaker 1: weeks to go, only two weeks to go, one week
2:07
Speaker 1: to go. And it's like how many people get sick
2:12
Speaker 1: when they go on holiday total, you know, they just
2:15
Speaker 1: do what they need to do, and then they've got
2:17
Speaker 1: three weeks off. In the first week they're sick, and
2:19
Speaker 1: it's like they're subconscious told their body, you can't get
2:23
Speaker 1: sick yet, because we've got to get through the next
2:26
Speaker 1: week or two. And then and then when they just
2:28
Speaker 1: completely relax and switch off the craziness, and it's like
2:33
Speaker 1: their body then goes, oh, thank God, now I need
2:35
Speaker 1: to I don't know, I need to fall. Yeah, I know.
2:39
Speaker 2: I actually think about that a lot, because I always
2:41
Speaker 2: find that just before I go on a holiday or
2:45
Speaker 2: a break, I'm at the peak of my stress levels,
2:49
Speaker 2: like just trying to get everything done so that I
2:52
Speaker 2: can have actual time off without worrying about things that
2:56
Speaker 2: were working at all. And when you work for yourself,
2:58
Speaker 2: it's a little bit harder. Yeah, And I've definitely found that, so,
3:04
Speaker 2: and I exactly what you said. It's you're basically chronically
3:09
Speaker 2: stressed for like between two and four weeks, depending on
3:12
Speaker 2: how long it takes you to get everything sorted out.
3:16
Speaker 2: And so of course then when you know you have
3:19
Speaker 2: that time, your amenity is lower, and so you're gonna
3:23
Speaker 2: you know, you're at a vulnerable to being sick, and
3:26
Speaker 2: then it happens at the worst time because you want
3:29
Speaker 2: that time to enjoy your time off. So it there
3:36
Speaker 2: has to be a better.
3:37
Speaker 1: Way, you know. It's quite funny how we can to
3:42
Speaker 1: an extent, obviously, we talk about place ebos and no
3:44
Speaker 1: cibos in the mind and the immune system and our
3:47
Speaker 1: ability to kind of make ourselves sickle well and all
3:51
Speaker 1: of that, but just in general kind of terms. I
3:55
Speaker 1: remember a few years ago, I had an all weekend program,
4:00
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty people, and you know, Fatty harps
4:03
Speaker 1: up the front from Friday night to Sunday night. So
4:07
Speaker 1: I had to do over, you know, two full days.
4:11
Speaker 1: I probably had to be in front of the group
4:14
Speaker 1: about talking, not just in front of the group, but
4:18
Speaker 1: actual delivering content, lecturing, teaching, coaching the group, probably twenty
4:25
Speaker 1: hours of content, as well as all the one on
4:27
Speaker 1: ones in between where everyone wants a you know, a
4:31
Speaker 1: hug or a chat or a question or a or
4:34
Speaker 1: a whatever. Right, And I remember I remember in the
4:37
Speaker 1: week feeling, oh my god, I'm going to get sick.
4:41
Speaker 1: And I knew I was going to get sick about Friday,
4:45
Speaker 1: and I just said to my body, you cannot fucking
4:47
Speaker 1: get sick, So go and get fucked. You can get
4:51
Speaker 1: sick on Monday, bitch. I'm like I am, and I
4:56
Speaker 1: do not know how, but yeah, I just I got
5:00
Speaker 1: through the weekend and I didn't feel amazing, but I
5:02
Speaker 1: definitely wasn't fully blown sick, but I could feel it. Yeah,
5:07
Speaker 1: And then I got home on the Monday night. On
5:09
Speaker 1: the Sunday nights, I did everything I needed to do.
5:11
Speaker 1: I unpacked, I washed some clothes, I responded to a
5:15
Speaker 1: few emails and that was it. And I was just
5:18
Speaker 1: wiped for about three days. And the next day I
5:21
Speaker 1: got up. I was well. I didn't get up. I
5:23
Speaker 1: probably got up at some stage. But it's just funny
5:26
Speaker 1: because I just willed myself not to let that thing
5:31
Speaker 1: happen that I knew was going to happen, so that
5:34
Speaker 1: I could because nobody else could jump in and just
5:36
Speaker 1: do what I had to do for two days.
5:38
Speaker 2: So yeah, sometimes you just have to do something, like
5:41
Speaker 2: you don't really have the choice of saying, oh, well,
5:43
Speaker 2: like if I cancel, it's not the end of the world.
5:45
Speaker 2: Well no, actually it might not be the end of
5:47
Speaker 2: the world. But you've taken on a responsibility and you
5:51
Speaker 2: need to, like, yes, fulfill it and people are counting
5:54
Speaker 2: on you, and there will be consequences for a lot
5:58
Speaker 2: of people if you can't push through. So sometimes you
6:00
Speaker 2: do have to push through. But it is funny, Like
6:03
Speaker 2: I was sick for I don't get sick often, thankfully,
6:06
Speaker 2: but I was sick for a few days. Maybe three
6:10
Speaker 2: weeks ago, like sick, like I really wasn't going to
6:14
Speaker 2: be able to do anything sick. But I felt like,
6:19
Speaker 2: you know, you know when you're really busy like I
6:22
Speaker 2: have been, and you're like, well, you can't miss a
6:23
Speaker 2: day because you know, like it wasn't like your fache
6:26
Speaker 2: where you're like presenting to one hundred and thirty people
6:29
Speaker 2: for three days. It was just like work, work that
6:31
Speaker 2: needs to get done, and you've got a list and
6:32
Speaker 2: you're trying to get through it. But for three days,
6:35
Speaker 2: it was like Nope, I just can't. And I remember
6:39
Speaker 2: thinking to myself, like, but I would have never just
6:41
Speaker 2: taken those three days off to make myself feel better.
6:46
Speaker 2: I had to get sick to give myself permission to
6:48
Speaker 2: have time out, and that's actually not okay, Like I
6:52
Speaker 2: need to like really rethink that that situation a little
6:58
Speaker 2: bit more, because those three days were great. I mean,
7:01
Speaker 2: I wasn't feeling well, but like the fact that I
7:03
Speaker 2: had that time away and I felt like there was
7:06
Speaker 2: like zero guilt about having the time away. It's like, no,
7:08
Speaker 2: I'm sick, and usually I feel like my normal way
7:15
Speaker 2: is guilt free time away like that doesn't usually bother me.
7:19
Speaker 2: To like stop working. Yeah, yeah, but I feel like
7:22
Speaker 2: the last few months haven't been like that. I feel
7:24
Speaker 2: like I've been pulled in so many different directions and
7:27
Speaker 2: need to do and complete so many different things before
7:30
Speaker 2: the end of the year that I'm not giving myself
7:33
Speaker 2: as much permission. And so it's like, oh, well, thank
7:36
Speaker 2: goodness I had those sick days, I could have some
7:39
Speaker 2: time off.
7:41
Speaker 1: We'll take the most out of you. Is it the
7:43
Speaker 1: physical stuff of sleep and work and movement and getting
7:47
Speaker 1: kids stuff done and like whatever, cleaning all the domesticity
7:54
Speaker 1: and the just the movement, or is it the mental
7:57
Speaker 1: load like cognitive load, or or is it emotional stuff?
8:01
Speaker 1: Like what what derails you the most you personally?
8:06
Speaker 2: I think it is Oh gosh, I want to say
8:09
Speaker 2: all three of but that's probably a cop out. I
8:11
Speaker 2: think it's all three. Can like it if there's like
8:17
Speaker 2: a million family appointments that need to get scheduled and
8:21
Speaker 2: taken to, and that can be that it can be
8:24
Speaker 2: a lot just on its own because it's so time.
8:26
Speaker 2: It's not brain heavy, but it's like time consuming mental load. Definitely, yeah,
8:34
Speaker 2: especially because for me, at least, I'm and I think
8:38
Speaker 2: about a lot of people especially women. I'm going to say,
8:41
Speaker 2: but there's so many things to think about. So there's
8:45
Speaker 2: you know, for me, it's like so many different work
8:48
Speaker 2: things like probably I could list probably ten, but like
8:51
Speaker 2: maybe four major things. Yes, And then you've got your
8:55
Speaker 2: children and what they're doing and how they're progressing, and
8:59
Speaker 2: their lives and their social lives and their emotions. And
9:02
Speaker 2: then you've got you know, your partner and what they're
9:06
Speaker 2: going through, and the wider family and my family in
9:09
Speaker 2: the US. So there's all of that, and then you
9:11
Speaker 2: just got the regular routine stuff, you know, the laundry
9:16
Speaker 2: and the groceries, and my partner is he's doing the
9:20
Speaker 2: bulk of that, like I'm not even doing the bulk
9:23
Speaker 2: of it, and it's still a lot. And even cooking
9:27
Speaker 2: and he likes to cook. I don't have to cook
9:30
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the time, so that's amazing for me.
9:36
Speaker 2: So yeah, all of those things can an emotional toll.
9:39
Speaker 2: Of course, again, like there's like yes of me today,
9:42
Speaker 2: It's like I had this like very heavy feeling today,
9:47
Speaker 2: I feel much flatter. I was really looking forward to
9:51
Speaker 2: talking to you today. Like for the last few weeks,
9:53
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I miss Craig, I haven't been. I
9:55
Speaker 2: feel like I haven't been on the show in eighties.
9:56
Speaker 2: I ran into you like last week and I told
9:59
Speaker 2: you I looking, you know, really looking forward to it.
10:01
Speaker 1: And I have been.
10:02
Speaker 2: I've been in like such a good mood and like
10:04
Speaker 2: looking forward to it. And then yesterday happened and I
10:07
Speaker 2: went to sleep early. I never go to sleep early.
10:11
Speaker 2: Today I had to do like two meetings. If I
10:15
Speaker 2: could have canceled them, I would have, but as they
10:19
Speaker 2: but they were not cancelable meetings. Yes, and so I
10:23
Speaker 2: like literally even put on like a brighter top so that,
10:26
Speaker 2: you know, like so I could feel more energy for
10:30
Speaker 2: those meetings. And I've changed for you. I've got a
10:32
Speaker 2: blacktop on that I'm like.
10:35
Speaker 1: Real with you, Craig, I look very very coolporate and professional.
10:39
Speaker 2: I'm wearing black. But yeah, I just feel like very
10:43
Speaker 2: unsettled and yeah, heavy, and so that of course takes
10:48
Speaker 2: a toll. Probably had the emotional toll is the biggest one,
10:52
Speaker 2: you know, if you've had When I've had things happen
10:55
Speaker 2: to me that take an emotional toll, it's pretty significant.
11:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the top of my list, my list
11:04
Speaker 1: goes like this far and away, emotional and then physical
11:08
Speaker 1: but I can grind through tiredness. But but yeah, it
11:11
Speaker 1: definitely fucks me, especially sleep right. But at the top
11:15
Speaker 1: of my list is emotional if someone that I care
11:20
Speaker 1: about is sick or dies or is you know, all
11:23
Speaker 1: that stuff that you and I spoke about before on
11:25
Speaker 1: the phone, Like that just derails me. And the cognitive
11:29
Speaker 1: load is you know, like right now, my submission date
11:34
Speaker 1: for my you know study is tomorrow, one month and
11:40
Speaker 1: so everybody's like, what are you doing for Christmas? I'm
11:42
Speaker 1: like fucking sitting at my desk. Yeah, like, oh, can't
11:46
Speaker 1: you just have a week. I'm like you, I wish,
11:50
Speaker 1: I wish I could have a week. It's like, there
11:53
Speaker 1: will not be one day between now and January sixteen
11:56
Speaker 1: where I'm not writing or doing it you know, where
11:58
Speaker 1: I'm not or I'm not worth on my thesis, not editing,
12:01
Speaker 1: not trying to figure something out. And that's okay, nobody
12:04
Speaker 1: made me do it, and there's no self pity in that.
12:06
Speaker 1: But it's hey, Interestingly, I ask chat GPT, is there
12:11
Speaker 1: a name for the phenomenon when people get sick in
12:14
Speaker 1: the worth for worth sorry first week of holidays? Yeah,
12:19
Speaker 1: and it says, yes, Craig, there is. It's most commonly
12:22
Speaker 1: called leisure sickness. This refers to the phenomenon when people
12:27
Speaker 1: become ill colds, flu like symptoms, headache, fatigue, gi issues
12:31
Speaker 1: right as a holiday or break begins, often in the
12:34
Speaker 1: first days. What's going on underneath it? Thanks for asking chatters.
12:39
Speaker 1: Stress withdrawal when you've been running on adrenaline, cortersole and
12:42
Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system activation. Your body finally downregulates and the
12:46
Speaker 1: immune system can temporarily dip delayed immune response. Stress hormones
12:52
Speaker 1: can suppress immune function. When stress drops, symptoms that were
12:55
Speaker 1: held back show up. Sleep pattern changes over sleeping a
13:00
Speaker 1: regular sleep can disrupt immune regulation. Behavioral shift changes in diet, alcohol,
13:06
Speaker 1: routine and exposure planes and crowds, psychophysiological rebound. The body
13:12
Speaker 1: finally has permission to stop coping. It's not imaginary and
13:16
Speaker 1: it's been documented in occupational health and stress research. And
13:21
Speaker 1: then it says, if you want a more Craigish way
13:24
Speaker 1: of saying it for a post or podcast, then it says,
13:28
Speaker 1: your body doesn't get sick on holidays. It gets honest.
13:32
Speaker 1: And then it says or more clinical sustain stress days substrained,
13:37
Speaker 1: bloody hell, sustained stress, delays illness, rest reveals it. Yes,
13:44
Speaker 1: so it's a real thing. It's a real so is Yeah,
13:47
Speaker 1: it's therapy that's required.
13:48
Speaker 2: But well we all have that experience and we all
13:51
Speaker 2: had it. It's definitely I mean, so it has to
13:53
Speaker 2: be a real thing. It's just like, what's the why.
13:57
Speaker 1: For everyone might be different? Yeah, Now, so for our listeners,
14:03
Speaker 1: and about forty percent of our listeners are overseas, so
14:07
Speaker 1: about sixty percent are Aussies, and so the nearly half
14:12
Speaker 1: of our listeners who don't know what we're talking about
14:15
Speaker 1: when we're saying something horrible happened in Australia, you might
14:18
Speaker 1: have heard about it. But yesterday, and for my Aussie listeners,
14:21
Speaker 1: sorry for the replay for the million at the time,
14:24
Speaker 1: But yesterday there was a terrorist attack. Yesterday being Sunday,
14:27
Speaker 1: the fourteenth of December in Australia, there was a terrorist
14:32
Speaker 1: attack where a bunch of people at a Jewish festival
14:38
Speaker 1: or Jewish celebration Hannuka. Sixteen people I think as we record,
14:44
Speaker 1: were killed, and somewhere up around as that forty people
14:48
Speaker 1: were injured. I think somewhere in the ballpark and so
14:53
Speaker 1: that's you know, for a country that is very, very
14:57
Speaker 1: very anti guns. And obviously it was two gun men.
15:00
Speaker 1: I didn't say that it was two gunmen. And so
15:03
Speaker 1: it's just been a it's been a lot, and we're
15:09
Speaker 1: not used to this stuff. We're not used to this.
15:13
Speaker 1: So it's been all over the media. It's been NonStop,
15:17
Speaker 1: and I had to turn off for Telly, Like I
15:20
Speaker 1: watched quite a bit, but I just went, I can't
15:22
Speaker 1: keep watching because there's no real ess and I'm not
15:26
Speaker 1: putting my head in the sand. I know what's going on.
15:29
Speaker 1: I'm not pretending it didn't happen. It makes me sad,
15:32
Speaker 1: it makes me all the things that makes me a
15:34
Speaker 1: bit angry, It makes me all those normal human emotional
15:38
Speaker 1: and psychological reactions that I would think most, if not all,
15:42
Speaker 1: of you had a version of also. But I guess
15:47
Speaker 1: so you and I probably felt very similar. We had
15:51
Speaker 1: a chat on the phone before we started recording, but
15:55
Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to talk today a little bit
15:58
Speaker 1: about so a lot of things that happened to us
16:02
Speaker 1: and around us, you know, as we just navigate life.
16:07
Speaker 1: We didn't choose and we didn't want and obviously none
16:09
Speaker 1: of us chose this or wanted this, and just you know,
16:15
Speaker 1: as a country, and of course more importantly for the
16:18
Speaker 1: people themselves that were hurt or killed and their families.
16:23
Speaker 1: But how do we I guess there's no three step
16:27
Speaker 1: plan to react to hard things? You know, how long
16:31
Speaker 1: do we allow ourselves to ah, you know, feel what
16:38
Speaker 1: we feel? I guess there's no number, And that's maybe
16:41
Speaker 1: a dumb question. But do we also need to realize
16:44
Speaker 1: that we've got to then practically move forward? Doc Like,
16:48
Speaker 1: I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm anxious, I'm a bit scared,
16:51
Speaker 1: I'm all the things. How long can we sit in that?
16:56
Speaker 2: Well? I feel like right now it's it's really not
17:02
Speaker 2: about how do we cope and fix and move on?
17:09
Speaker 2: I mean, in relation to what's going on here, it's.
17:12
Speaker 1: Very fresh, yet it's not twenty four hours as we record.
17:17
Speaker 2: It's really like, how do we give ourselves permission to
17:22
Speaker 2: feel the way that we're feeling and keep putting one
17:29
Speaker 2: foot in front of the other, but maybe in a
17:30
Speaker 2: way that it's more gentle and soothing and grounding and
17:36
Speaker 2: that feels safe and and you know, I think for me,
17:43
Speaker 2: and I think in general, having people around you that
17:48
Speaker 2: you love and like, you know, the key relationships, you know,
17:54
Speaker 2: being able to talk to them or be with them
17:56
Speaker 2: or or you know, hug each other. I think that's
17:59
Speaker 2: really come for that's certainly comforting for me. I think
18:03
Speaker 2: that's really how we get through tough things. A lot
18:07
Speaker 2: of the time is with other people. So and like
18:14
Speaker 2: you were saying, you don't want to like inundate yourself
18:19
Speaker 2: with news, I think that that can be really I
18:21
Speaker 2: think what like what happens when we have an event
18:25
Speaker 2: like yesterday, which it's like, it's so horrible to say,
18:28
Speaker 2: but you were saying, like we're not used to this,
18:30
Speaker 2: and like no one should be used to this. Yes,
18:33
Speaker 2: but we but we really aren't. Yes, and it really
18:39
Speaker 2: rocks your sense of safety even though it's unusual.
18:44
Speaker 1: Yes, And so like.
18:51
Speaker 2: It's okay, I guess, you know, I think it's okay
18:54
Speaker 2: to feel like that sense of you know, I'm being
18:58
Speaker 2: unsettled and feeling unsafe and be wanting to cocoon a
19:01
Speaker 2: little bit. And I think I think that it's I
19:03
Speaker 2: think it's okay to give yourself permission to do like
19:06
Speaker 2: just routine things around your home, around the people that
19:10
Speaker 2: you love, and not and like you said, be informed,
19:15
Speaker 2: but you don't need to like watch every second of
19:17
Speaker 2: every news thing and just ground yourself as much as possible.
19:26
Speaker 2: But yes, it's very reasonable. I feel really shitty today.
19:30
Speaker 2: I know a lot of other people feel that way.
19:33
Speaker 2: And on top of that, there's you know, the closer
19:36
Speaker 2: you are probably to that area, you're going to feel
19:38
Speaker 2: more even more anxious. And it makes sense to feel
19:44
Speaker 2: that way, even thinking about going to bond Aid. Like
19:49
Speaker 2: for me, like it's you know, like I have a
19:52
Speaker 2: nephew coming to visit in March and I was like
19:55
Speaker 2: one of you know, I was like, oh gosh, you know,
19:57
Speaker 2: like that's one of the places it was just and
20:00
Speaker 2: you know, recently with my mother, and it's such a beautiful,
20:04
Speaker 2: iconic place and you don't think of it as you
20:07
Speaker 2: don't think of any place in Australia's unsafe, but kind
20:11
Speaker 2: of that, those are just our immediate kind of reactions
20:13
Speaker 2: to things, you know, and it makes sense to have
20:16
Speaker 2: those immediate reactions. And I think like anything that's really
20:19
Speaker 2: tough and hard and that we hate that you know,
20:22
Speaker 2: shouldn't happen. And you know, the unfair things that happen
20:25
Speaker 2: in life that really you can't do anything about and
20:29
Speaker 2: you can't control. It's just yeah, it's a sense of yeah,
20:36
Speaker 2: real sadness and grief about that, but also like you
20:42
Speaker 2: still everything's the world still turns. Things still, you know, Yeah.
20:47
Speaker 1: That's the thing that we get the next day and
20:50
Speaker 1: things are still happening. For me, I'm like, I'm quite empathetic,
20:58
Speaker 1: so it it. You know, I heard a mum talking
21:02
Speaker 1: about her little girl and that was it just tears
21:05
Speaker 1: and stuff and three year old little girl called Gigi
21:09
Speaker 1: or something. And anyway, I'm I'm listening to that and
21:14
Speaker 1: I'm sad and I'm crying that I'm listening to other
21:16
Speaker 1: people and I'm trying to and then somebody sent me
21:19
Speaker 1: some footage which I wish they didn't send me, but
21:22
Speaker 1: it was just horrendous. Anyway, Like an idiot, I just
21:26
Speaker 1: went watched this what's this? And I played it? So
21:30
Speaker 1: that didn't help. And I mean, at the same time,
21:32
Speaker 1: I want to be aware, I want to be informed,
21:36
Speaker 1: I want to care, but I also know at the
21:38
Speaker 1: same time I can't do anything to change it or
21:43
Speaker 1: undo what's been done. And so I like, as a
21:48
Speaker 1: student of human behavior literally and you know, just experientially
21:54
Speaker 1: out in the field. I'm really interested in just what
21:59
Speaker 1: happened now, Like, and you know, the fear and even
22:04
Speaker 1: the paranoia and the outrage and all of those things,
22:09
Speaker 1: I totally understand. Yeah, And I'm not saying people shouldn't
22:13
Speaker 1: be outraged or you know, I think what we do
22:16
Speaker 1: next practically really matters and how you know, because jumping
22:20
Speaker 1: up and down and being mad is totally understandable, but
22:23
Speaker 1: it probably doesn't move the needle in a positive way
22:26
Speaker 1: on anything, right, So I just think, you know, what
22:30
Speaker 1: happens next, And I also think, like I was thinking
22:34
Speaker 1: about this this morning, and I'm like, I personally, in
22:43
Speaker 1: my whole life, I've never ever, in my whole life
22:46
Speaker 1: tried to hurt anyone physically ever in my life who
22:52
Speaker 1: wasn't already trying to hurt me, right, so somebody was
22:54
Speaker 1: trying to punch me in the face or something, which
22:57
Speaker 1: you know, I worked in pubs and did security for years,
23:00
Speaker 1: but you know, so I've been in a few scuffles
23:03
Speaker 1: in my life and all of that, but every time
23:05
Speaker 1: defending myself and not you know, but the the standalone
23:10
Speaker 1: objective of killing people. But that's what they set out
23:14
Speaker 1: to do just kill humans that they don't know. It's
23:19
Speaker 1: both disgusting and in a way fascinating, not good fascinating,
23:29
Speaker 1: like terrible fascinating. But part of me thinks we can't
23:33
Speaker 1: overcome what we don't understand, and obviously the shooting is
23:39
Speaker 1: the byproduct of some kind of weird, fucked up thinking
23:44
Speaker 1: and mindset and ideology and beliefs, and like, I'm curious
23:50
Speaker 1: about that. I'm curious about what drives these people. Not
23:55
Speaker 1: so of course that I want to on any level
24:00
Speaker 1: a line or condone, of course, but I want to
24:03
Speaker 1: understand why they are the way they are, so we
24:07
Speaker 1: can deal with that before we get to what we
24:10
Speaker 1: got to yesterday. You know, you think about this like
24:14
Speaker 1: you and I live in a world where, on a
24:18
Speaker 1: pretty regular basis, a teenager will put on a vest
24:23
Speaker 1: with explosives and happily, probably nervously, but happily go and
24:28
Speaker 1: blow himself and civilians up, usually him, in the belief
24:34
Speaker 1: that they are doing something good and noble. You know
24:38
Speaker 1: that happens at the same time as somebody in Brighton
24:43
Speaker 1: is getting a skinny latte at the pantry and ordering porridge.
24:48
Speaker 1: You know, somewhere else in the world, someone's been so
24:51
Speaker 1: indoctrinated that they And also to think about the reality
24:57
Speaker 1: that evil people who do evil things don't think they're evil. Yeah,
25:05
Speaker 1: Like they don't think people who do bad shit think
25:07
Speaker 1: they're doing good shit, like they have a story. It's
25:11
Speaker 1: like every religion thinks all the other religions are wrong.
25:15
Speaker 1: You know, there is not one religion that thinks that
25:17
Speaker 1: they're wrong. Everyone's every political party thinks every other party
25:21
Speaker 1: or idiots. Like, it's just we live in an echo chamber,
25:25
Speaker 1: all of us individuals and collectively like our own echo chambers.
25:29
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Wow, when people grow up indoctrinated with
25:33
Speaker 1: evil ideologies, that's what you get.
25:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for me, Craig, it's like when something
25:43
Speaker 2: like this happens, I don't care about that yet, you
25:48
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like in the immediate aftermath, I
25:51
Speaker 2: don't care why these people did what they did. They
26:00
Speaker 2: like there's no good reason, Like there's no like I
26:03
Speaker 2: know that you know that there's no good reason either.
26:05
Speaker 2: I'm noting that you do, but but like there's no
26:09
Speaker 2: justifiable reason or like the reason that's going to make
26:12
Speaker 2: sense or any you know, like and that's probably why
26:17
Speaker 2: I'm not a forensic psychologist because I just I don't
26:20
Speaker 2: want to work with people who do bad things intentionally, yeah,
26:27
Speaker 2: and then feel like there's some kind of justification for
26:31
Speaker 2: it when there really isn't. So yeah, I totally get
26:36
Speaker 2: like we do need to understand because we need that's
26:39
Speaker 2: the way of prevention, right, you understand what you can prevent.
26:44
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not ready to have that conversation because
26:47
Speaker 2: it's maybe it's just it's too soon. But maybe I'm
26:51
Speaker 2: maybe I'm not the right person either, because like you know,
26:55
Speaker 2: like you know, when you see like the footage of
26:58
Speaker 2: and you know, I maybe people would be surprised by
27:00
Speaker 2: this because I'm a psychologist, but like when you see
27:03
Speaker 2: the footage of that man who was able to get
27:05
Speaker 2: the arrest to get the gun away from the other man,
27:08
Speaker 2: and he showed like the restraint he showed by not
27:13
Speaker 2: doing anything with that gun, I'm like, I don't know
27:16
Speaker 2: if I would be able to show that level of
27:18
Speaker 2: a restraint. That's that's to me amazing. But yeah, I just,
27:30
Speaker 2: of course, you know, like that's saying everything happens for
27:34
Speaker 2: a reason. I don't believe that in the way that
27:39
Speaker 2: people usually mean it. Yes, So like it's usually meant
27:43
Speaker 2: as you know, if a bad thing happens, you'll find
27:46
Speaker 2: out what the reason is in the future kind of thing, yes, right,
27:50
Speaker 2: and some kind of destiny or fate or something. You know,
27:52
Speaker 2: there's a something in effect that's creating a reality that
27:56
Speaker 2: you don't know about yet whatever. I don't believe in
27:59
Speaker 2: that because I just think some things are just unfair
28:02
Speaker 2: and wrong and things shit happens, and it doesn't mean
28:08
Speaker 2: that something good's going to come acce it.
28:10
Speaker 1: On agree, And I think that that very pragmatical real
28:15
Speaker 1: world thinking is that of course we don't want that
28:19
Speaker 1: to be the world we live in, but well we
28:21
Speaker 1: now know that is well we knew that before, but
28:24
Speaker 1: this is the world. Like, bad things happen to good people. Yeah,
28:27
Speaker 1: bad things happen to children, you know, Terrible things happen
28:31
Speaker 1: around the world. Life is not fair. Life does not
28:34
Speaker 1: give a fuck about your feelings or your emotional state.
28:37
Speaker 1: You know, this is This is not negativity, This is reality.
28:41
Speaker 1: This is practicality. And so you know, we want to
28:45
Speaker 1: be compassionate and kind and loving and we want to
28:48
Speaker 1: support the people that are going through this. And I
28:51
Speaker 1: reckon I've hugged about ten people today who are upset
28:54
Speaker 1: and and I'm upset, but yeah, I'm very much. I
29:00
Speaker 1: want to understand this fucking evil yeah, so that we
29:05
Speaker 1: can do something about it. But anyway, and that's what.
29:08
Speaker 2: I was going to say, though, Craig, I was going
29:09
Speaker 2: to say that everything happens for a reason. In the
29:13
Speaker 2: other direction, we need to understand what the reasons are
29:16
Speaker 2: that led up to it. Yes, right, that's so I
29:20
Speaker 2: think everything happens for a reason. Yes, there are reasons.
29:23
Speaker 2: We might not understand or know what the reasons are
29:26
Speaker 2: as of now, or we might never understand. But that
29:30
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that there weren't things that led up to it,
29:32
Speaker 2: and they might not be reasonable reasons, they're just reasons,
29:36
Speaker 2: whereas the other way is just magical things.
29:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean everything happens for a reason, but that's
29:43
Speaker 1: not to say that that's good, like it's like, well,
29:46
Speaker 1: doesn't justify it.
29:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
29:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. And for people who think, you know, it's like,
29:52
Speaker 1: are there aren't evil people. People are all kind of
29:54
Speaker 1: genetically predetermined and it's biochemistry of the of course all
29:58
Speaker 1: of those things play a role and therein but there
30:02
Speaker 1: are evil people who do evil shit. That's what that's
30:04
Speaker 1: my philosophy anyway, and I think you don't need I
30:07
Speaker 1: don't think that's a big stretch to believe that. Hey,
30:10
Speaker 1: let's park that conversation because I don't want to make
30:13
Speaker 1: everyone sad for an hour. So let's let's just put
30:16
Speaker 1: a little bow on that and say, to all those
30:19
Speaker 1: people who were affected directly or indirectly by what happened
30:23
Speaker 1: at Bondio, you know we're sending you love and kind
30:28
Speaker 1: of best wishes and all the vibes. And I know
30:30
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean much, but if intention counts, well, then
30:34
Speaker 1: you know there's some love coming from here. And yeah,
30:38
Speaker 1: let's hope that that doesn't happen again ever in Australia.
30:44
Speaker 1: I don't like my chances of that, but let's hope
30:47
Speaker 1: that we don't have to deal with that in the
30:51
Speaker 1: near future or the distant future. Let's hope that doesn't
30:53
Speaker 1: happen again. All right, let's talk about something that's a
30:59
Speaker 1: bit of a left Okay, I want I wanted to Okay,
31:03
Speaker 1: so let's shake shake that heaviness off for a moment.
31:07
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about the difference between
31:13
Speaker 1: pursuing happiness or success or fulfillment or getting that internal
31:18
Speaker 1: state if you had to describe before I ask the question,
31:24
Speaker 1: if you had to describe the internal state that people
31:27
Speaker 1: most typically want, Yeah, what is that state? Missus psychologist?
31:33
Speaker 2: Well, you know you just said it. Everybody wants to
31:36
Speaker 2: be happy, right, I think what they really want is contentment. Yeah,
31:42
Speaker 2: they say happy often.
31:44
Speaker 1: Is contentment the same as the absence of anxiety? No?
31:50
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think maybe people think that.
31:53
Speaker 3: It is is that just calm, Like what's the what's
31:58
Speaker 3: the the opposite of anxiety then, because it seems like
32:03
Speaker 3: the main melais or emotional melais for people is anxiety
32:09
Speaker 3: or something in the stress, anxiety, overthinking in a chaos space.
32:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, what would be the opposite? The opposite could be
32:18
Speaker 2: what you said, calm, relaxation, lack of tension. But if
32:26
Speaker 2: we went extreme opposite, maybe it is contentment. Although I
32:32
Speaker 2: feel like contentment is more about no matter how you're
32:37
Speaker 2: feeling or what's going on in your life, yes, that
32:41
Speaker 2: you still feel internally okay, like oh not necessarily like emotionally,
32:49
Speaker 2: but like you know who you are, you know what
32:52
Speaker 2: you stand for, you know what your values are, Like
32:57
Speaker 2: that level of contentment, like you know that whatever happens,
33:00
Speaker 2: you'll be able to cope. So you still might feel
33:04
Speaker 2: anxious at times, like because that's just human experience, But overall,
33:09
Speaker 2: there's a feeling of contentment, like an inner kind of
33:12
Speaker 2: an inner piece that you have.
33:15
Speaker 1: I feel like contentment is a state of enoughness. You know,
33:22
Speaker 1: I have enough mentally, emotionally, financially, practically, like I've got enough.
33:28
Speaker 1: It's all right. I don't need more. If I have more,
33:31
Speaker 1: I do. If I don't, I don't, it doesn't really matter,
33:35
Speaker 1: like I am, but I think.
33:39
Speaker 2: Don't need more or don't want more?
33:41
Speaker 1: Well, I think they're different, and I think like the
33:44
Speaker 1: he's he's a curly question. I've asked a few people
33:47
Speaker 1: over the years. Can we be simultaneously content that is
33:53
Speaker 1: relatively happy but also ambitious? Yeah, because I feel like
33:59
Speaker 1: I'm both, like, which sounds like you can't be because
34:03
Speaker 1: they seem at opposite ends of the continuum. But like,
34:08
Speaker 1: if I found out that all I'm ever going to
34:11
Speaker 1: have or do or be or create or achieve is
34:13
Speaker 1: what I already have, I would feel quite content because
34:19
Speaker 1: I think I've done Okay. Yeah, I don't think I'm
34:22
Speaker 1: a superstar, but I wouldn't feel like, oh fuck, I've
34:26
Speaker 1: been an abject failure in my whole life. I wouldn't
34:29
Speaker 1: be miserable, you know. But at the same time I
34:31
Speaker 1: can go I have gratitude. My life is good, my
34:34
Speaker 1: relationships are good, my health is good, touch wood, my career,
34:39
Speaker 1: all of those things, like I'm really really call it fortunate, blessed, whatever.
34:43
Speaker 1: But in the middle of that, I'm very grateful also
34:47
Speaker 1: and innother breaking news, I have goals.
34:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's yeah. I actually So this makes me
34:54
Speaker 2: think I don't think contentment is about enoughness. I think
35:01
Speaker 2: it might be more about acceptance, acceptance of yourself fully.
35:09
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
35:11
Speaker 2: So not so okay, So this makes me think of
35:17
Speaker 2: we might have talked about this in the past, but
35:19
Speaker 2: there's this woman named Marshall Nahan, and she developed this
35:22
Speaker 2: whole program like treatment. But one of the things that
35:25
Speaker 2: she talks about is how for everyone, every something, there's
35:28
Speaker 2: an opposite thing, yes, And one of the main examples
35:33
Speaker 2: of that is acceptance and change. So we so we
35:39
Speaker 2: The idea of it is you can accept yourself fully
35:44
Speaker 2: and at the same time know that you can do
35:48
Speaker 2: better right and change yes, right, And even though that
35:52
Speaker 2: seems opposite to each other and that you can't be
35:56
Speaker 2: both at the same time. The reality is that you
35:59
Speaker 2: can have both the same time, and that we often
36:02
Speaker 2: think in opposites, but that doesn't actually reflect reality. It's
36:07
Speaker 2: like just a simplistic view or a perspective that we
36:10
Speaker 2: take to make things seem more I guess simple. But
36:14
Speaker 2: the reality is it's a lot more complex than that.
36:17
Speaker 2: So for you to say like, I'm content and I
36:20
Speaker 2: have goals and I want, you know, and I'm ambitious
36:23
Speaker 2: to me, doesn't seem wrong or like it seems like no,
36:28
Speaker 2: you can you can have both. Yes, it's a dialectic,
36:33
Speaker 2: that's what she calls that, a dialectic. So, yeah, because
36:37
Speaker 2: I feel the same. I feel like I'm a fairly
36:40
Speaker 2: content person and I am ambitious as well. I like
36:49
Speaker 2: to do lots of things, and I'm working towards lots
36:52
Speaker 2: of things. And do I have to know? I don't
36:54
Speaker 2: have to. I don't have to. If I don't do
36:57
Speaker 2: those things, I'll still feel content.
36:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. And what about I'm thinking, I was just thinking
37:05
Speaker 1: about Acceptance Commitment Therapy ACT. Do you know? Do you
37:09
Speaker 1: know much about that?
37:10
Speaker 2: I do? Yes, it's actually very aligned with Lenihan's work,
37:14
Speaker 2: which hers is. Her therapy is called DBT, so dialectical
37:17
Speaker 2: behavior therapy. They're very very similar.
37:20
Speaker 1: So explain to us what act is.
37:23
Speaker 2: So Acceptance and commitment therapy basically is about understanding that
37:30
Speaker 2: your internal experiences are valid and reasonable, and that you
37:40
Speaker 2: can still no matter what those experiences are, whether they're
37:44
Speaker 2: distressing or pleasant or unpleasant, that you can still move
37:48
Speaker 2: towards your values. You can still move towards your goals
37:51
Speaker 2: via your values.
37:53
Speaker 1: Yes, So.
37:56
Speaker 2: It's they differentiate themselves from cognitive behavioral therapy because cognitive
38:01
Speaker 2: behavioral therapy, the cognitive part is about understanding what your
38:07
Speaker 2: thoughts are and the patterns of thoughts that you have
38:10
Speaker 2: and then modifying them. Right, So we might say, like
38:12
Speaker 2: you have black and white thinking, so let's modify that,
38:15
Speaker 2: let's make that more realistic, and then you practice that
38:18
Speaker 2: new thought and then over time that becomes your new
38:21
Speaker 2: way of thinking. That's cognitive behavioral therapy, where acceptance and
38:25
Speaker 2: commitment therapy will say, well, we have you know, we
38:30
Speaker 2: have lots of thoughts and some of them are you know,
38:34
Speaker 2: not particularly helpful or healthy, but we don't really need
38:38
Speaker 2: to attach ourselves to our thoughts. Thoughts are just experiences
38:42
Speaker 2: that we have. We can just accept them that they happen,
38:46
Speaker 2: we can identify them and then choose to continue to
38:51
Speaker 2: move towards our goals because we're attending more to our
38:54
Speaker 2: values rather than all of these internal experiences that we
38:57
Speaker 2: might be having. So it's kind of a different way, say,
39:00
Speaker 2: like an acceptance pathway to better mental health, whereas cognitive
39:07
Speaker 2: therapy is more change pathway to better mental health. And
39:12
Speaker 2: I think both are useful, and both both are evidence
39:15
Speaker 2: based and both can help, and I use both with
39:19
Speaker 2: my clients. And DBT is kind of both DBT, So
39:23
Speaker 2: DBT has the change skills in it and it also
39:26
Speaker 2: has the acceptance skills in it. So that's I do
39:29
Speaker 2: actually tend to gravitate towards DBT's perspective and way of
39:35
Speaker 2: thinking about things because I think it encompasses both really well,
39:39
Speaker 2: and it gives people. It gives people options to in
39:43
Speaker 2: terms of how like how their mind works, what they
39:46
Speaker 2: think suits them, would they prefer to be Does it
39:51
Speaker 2: make more sense for them to accept all of their
39:55
Speaker 2: thoughts and emotions, or does it make more sen sense
40:00
Speaker 2: to maybe be more analytical and and modify and change.
40:09
Speaker 2: And because of both work. You know, they have a
40:11
Speaker 2: good they have choices and options. So what do you
40:15
Speaker 2: think would look better for you?
40:17
Speaker 1: Uh? Maybe act Maybe I was just going to say
40:25
Speaker 1: something that well, I think I noticed about me when
40:28
Speaker 1: I was younger, which I think I've kind of figured out.
40:31
Speaker 1: But so I don't know what the actual term for
40:35
Speaker 1: this is. I call it destination disappointment. And it's when
40:38
Speaker 1: you get where you wanted to go and you don't
40:40
Speaker 1: have the experience you thought you'd have. Yeah, and obviously
40:45
Speaker 1: it could be I guess a geographic location, but I'm
40:48
Speaker 1: talking more metaphorically. Yeah, and that very real part of
40:52
Speaker 1: the human experience where wherever, where we're at, it's not
40:56
Speaker 1: where we want to be. Yeah, Like very few people go,
41:00
Speaker 1: you know what, my job awesome. I don't want any
41:02
Speaker 1: more money. I don't want to change anything or my
41:05
Speaker 1: you know, it's my body. I'm happy with my body.
41:07
Speaker 1: It's great. I don't need to be any more of
41:10
Speaker 1: this or any less of that. I'm fully locked in
41:13
Speaker 1: and content. And it's like this idea that this is
41:20
Speaker 1: where I am and this is where I want to
41:21
Speaker 1: be with whatever component of our existence. It could be
41:24
Speaker 1: fitness or health or career or money, or relationships or whatever.
41:29
Speaker 1: It could be a myriad of things. It could be
41:31
Speaker 1: my spiritual journey. Right, this is where I am, and
41:34
Speaker 1: that's where I want to be. And I know that
41:36
Speaker 1: when I move from this place and I get to
41:39
Speaker 1: that place, there's an underlying belief that there will be
41:43
Speaker 1: some kind of with the practical change and shift, there
41:47
Speaker 1: will be some correlated internal shift, like I'll be like
41:52
Speaker 1: nobody thinks. Nobody sets a goal because they want to
41:55
Speaker 1: be less happy or less content or or more anxious.
41:59
Speaker 1: I think most peopleeople you know, when you just talk
42:03
Speaker 1: to them, they assume that, well, when I achieved that
42:06
Speaker 1: own that earn that look like that way that do
42:10
Speaker 1: that create that achieve that, then I am going to be,
42:15
Speaker 1: you know, whatever the appropriate inner state is. And then
42:18
Speaker 1: we get there. And I did that, and I like
42:21
Speaker 1: what many times with many things, like first time was
42:24
Speaker 1: when I got in great shape, only to realize I
42:28
Speaker 1: was still an overthinking, insecure, fucking attention seeking twenty twenty
42:35
Speaker 1: year old, Like I was just the fat, insecure kid
42:38
Speaker 1: in a different vehicle, like I just like I'd renovated
42:43
Speaker 1: my body, but my emotions and thoughts and feelings and
42:47
Speaker 1: they were essentially like carryover from six years before when
42:51
Speaker 1: I was the fattest kid at school. So you know,
42:55
Speaker 1: and that's not to say one caused the other, but
42:58
Speaker 1: you could have this this really good, healthy, functional, strong,
43:04
Speaker 1: maybe even attractive physike, but no positive correlated experience on
43:11
Speaker 1: the inside, you know. And then and then so I'm like.
43:14
Speaker 4: Well, fuck, if I get bigger arms then, you know,
43:17
Speaker 4: or if I get less fat, or if I get
43:18
Speaker 4: better abs, or if I train my fucking shoulders, I
43:22
Speaker 4: get whiter shoulders, or I do you know, all of
43:24
Speaker 4: these dumb stories that are all focusing on creating some
43:28
Speaker 4: external change to produce some internal experience.
43:33
Speaker 1: And I did the work, but the actual rationale was flawed,
43:38
Speaker 1: so I never created the experience. Or like with my business,
43:43
Speaker 1: when my business became quite successful, which is of course,
43:47
Speaker 1: you know, of itself, it's not a bad thing. But
43:50
Speaker 1: I think my underlying thought was, you know, when I
43:53
Speaker 1: have quite a bit of dough and I've got a
43:56
Speaker 1: good house and I've got a good car, and I'm
43:58
Speaker 1: not poor anymore, or because I spent a fair bit
44:01
Speaker 1: of my life poor, and you go, and it's not
44:03
Speaker 1: that I was rich, but it's like, well, I got
44:05
Speaker 1: to the point where you're not poor. Now you can
44:07
Speaker 1: buy stuff, you can own stuff, you can travel, you
44:10
Speaker 1: can you want that motorbike, go buy that motorbike. Like
44:13
Speaker 1: you can do stuff. And that's funny. In the middle
44:16
Speaker 1: of that, I'm like, oh, and I think realizing that
44:20
Speaker 1: I had this flawed belief system that when I arrived
44:25
Speaker 1: at a certain place financially or professionally, or esthetically or
44:31
Speaker 1: biologically or whatever it was, there would be some absolute
44:36
Speaker 1: positive correlated experience. And I went, oh, fuck, So I
44:39
Speaker 1: had to, you know, go back to the start of
44:43
Speaker 1: the book and start researching and thinking again, Yeah, that.
44:47
Speaker 2: Makes me think of so many different things we just said.
44:51
Speaker 2: I think that that is really I think. I think
44:56
Speaker 2: we all do that to some extent. A lot of
45:01
Speaker 2: people try to change external factors, yes, and expect internal
45:09
Speaker 2: change to come along with that, rather than the other
45:14
Speaker 2: way around. And I think both at the same time
45:21
Speaker 2: is probably the best way of going about it. But
45:25
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes we're changing external factors for like we're
45:31
Speaker 2: trying to like maybe reach a level of contentment and
45:34
Speaker 2: acceptance and fulfillment. But what we're actually doing is is
45:38
Speaker 2: trying to create safety and security.
45:41
Speaker 1: Yes, right, Like.
45:43
Speaker 2: You're wanting other people to accept you by changing your
45:48
Speaker 2: external self. You want to accept yourself as well, But
45:54
Speaker 2: maybe that's not what you were really working on. You
45:57
Speaker 2: were working on how other people see cent.
46:00
Speaker 1: And then do you think about, sorry, you think about
46:03
Speaker 1: when we're talking about goals or when I talk about,
46:07
Speaker 1: you know, sitting goals. Creating a process with people, We
46:09
Speaker 1: kind of really dumb it down and we go, what
46:11
Speaker 1: do you want? Why do you want it? But how
46:15
Speaker 1: are you going to get it? And when are you
46:16
Speaker 1: going to start this? So it's what, why?
46:19
Speaker 2: What? Why?
46:20
Speaker 1: How? When? Right? Really simple? And then we go and
46:23
Speaker 1: then you break it down. It's like, well, what I
46:25
Speaker 1: want to do is I want to lose thirty K's cool,
46:27
Speaker 1: Well that's not a bad goal because you're overweight, so
46:29
Speaker 1: that's that's good and let's not get too wrapped up
46:32
Speaker 1: in that. But cool, So why, well I want to
46:36
Speaker 1: be lighter? Yeah I know that.
46:37
Speaker 2: Why?
46:37
Speaker 1: Oh well, And then you get through and it's want
46:40
Speaker 1: to be I want to be more attractive to somebody,
46:42
Speaker 1: or I want to find a partner, or I want
46:44
Speaker 1: better self esteem, or I want to like myself more,
46:48
Speaker 1: or I don't want to be socially clunky, or I
46:50
Speaker 1: don't want to be embarrassed to take my shirt off
46:52
Speaker 1: in front of anyone, or you know, whatever it is.
46:56
Speaker 1: And then okay, why do you want that? Well, get
46:59
Speaker 1: down to a lot of It's like, I want to
47:00
Speaker 1: be loved. I want someone to love me. I want
47:04
Speaker 1: to be accepted. I want you know. So I was
47:07
Speaker 1: always trying to get approval and acceptance and love through
47:10
Speaker 1: how I looked, because I always got rejected for how
47:14
Speaker 1: I looked. So I'm like, well, the solution to this
47:17
Speaker 1: rejection is I get a body that doesn't get rejected.
47:22
Speaker 1: So when I have the opposite of what I had,
47:25
Speaker 1: so that fat body got me rejected and socially isolated
47:29
Speaker 1: and no one was interested in me romantically or physically. Right,
47:34
Speaker 1: So what I need to do is I need to
47:36
Speaker 1: go get the opposite of this current version and bibbity
47:39
Speaker 1: bobby boo, all that horrible shit will go away. Well
47:43
Speaker 1: it didn't though, you know, but it was. It wasn't
47:47
Speaker 1: the worst logic, I mean, as it turns out, but
47:51
Speaker 1: coming from that experience when my relationship, like I went, oh,
47:55
Speaker 1: well this is how I look and as a result,
47:57
Speaker 1: this is how I get treated. The answer is don't
48:00
Speaker 1: look like this. It's for a fourteen year old. It's
48:04
Speaker 1: kind of a logical step.
48:06
Speaker 2: It is. No, it is definitely. I think the other
48:11
Speaker 2: thing is that you you know, in terms of what
48:14
Speaker 2: you were saying, there's a difference between values and goals,
48:18
Speaker 2: and I don't think people necessarily know the difference, and
48:26
Speaker 2: that can I think if you're not clear about that,
48:29
Speaker 2: then you tend to move towards maybe goals that aren't
48:32
Speaker 2: serving you.
48:34
Speaker 1: I think also people want the thing that like I
48:39
Speaker 1: didn't really want weight loss I brought or I didn't
48:42
Speaker 1: want to. I mean, I wanted a great body, but
48:44
Speaker 1: really what I wanted was what I thought the great
48:47
Speaker 1: body would do. Yeah, what I thought it would give me.
48:51
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, what do you want it in
48:53
Speaker 1: three grand a week or five grand a week, all five? Well,
48:56
Speaker 1: it's not about the money. It's about what you think
48:58
Speaker 1: you can get or do or change your create will
49:00
Speaker 1: be with the money. It's always like the goal is
49:04
Speaker 1: always the conduit to the thing that you really want.
49:07
Speaker 1: So it's not really your goal, it's just the mechanism.
49:10
Speaker 1: It's just the pathway. And so but the assumption is
49:15
Speaker 1: sometimes we get it, we take that path and we
49:18
Speaker 1: get where we wanted to go. We go, oh, fuck,
49:20
Speaker 1: it's the wrong path. Well, fuck, I climbed the wrong mountain.
49:24
Speaker 1: It's that mountain over there.
49:27
Speaker 2: True. I think having some clarity about what your needs
49:31
Speaker 2: are before you put your goals in place is so important.
49:34
Speaker 2: I think people like, we have so many different needs.
49:37
Speaker 2: Maybe we don't even think about them as needs, but like, yes,
49:40
Speaker 2: you have social needs and relationship needs and survival needs
49:45
Speaker 2: and safety needs and you know, fulfillment needs and all
49:50
Speaker 2: of these different things, and you know they're not all
49:55
Speaker 2: going to be met, so and they'll all be met
49:58
Speaker 2: at different degrees as well, you know. So I have
50:02
Speaker 2: sometimes I have these clarity sessions with my clients and
50:04
Speaker 2: we start with with the needs questionnaire and they just rate,
50:09
Speaker 2: you know, the level that they that they're being met,
50:13
Speaker 2: and then from that in the different categories, and then
50:15
Speaker 2: from that you can kind of get a sense of like, oh,
50:18
Speaker 2: what areas are there where they're the most unmet needs? Yeah,
50:24
Speaker 2: and then then you've got a place where you can
50:28
Speaker 2: start creating goals that make sense and actually know what
50:35
Speaker 2: they're trying to achieve from those goals from the beginning. Yeah, Yes, And.
50:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry going no, I was going to say, sorry,
50:44
Speaker 1: did you ever see that movie? I'm just looking it
50:46
Speaker 1: up right now. Yeah, it's called Into the Wild.
50:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, Into the Wild? Was that the one where he
50:53
Speaker 2: goes and he lives in a bus?
50:55
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I fucking love that movie. And I didn't
50:59
Speaker 1: know any thing about it, and I went with some
51:02
Speaker 1: friends and and I'm like, ah, this is going to
51:06
Speaker 1: be boring, and I think it was pretty long, and
51:11
Speaker 1: and yeah, two thousand and seven. If you haven't seen
51:13
Speaker 1: this movie, I don't want to ruin it for you everybody,
51:15
Speaker 1: but you know, in the in fact, put your fingers
51:19
Speaker 1: in your ear for the next year, for the next
51:21
Speaker 1: thirty seconds if you don't want to spoiler alert. So
51:23
Speaker 1: just it's called Into the Wild. It's directed by Sean Penn,
51:28
Speaker 1: and it's based on John Crackour's book about Christopher mccandle's
51:33
Speaker 1: or McCandless I think it is. But remember like he
51:38
Speaker 1: just wanted to be out in nature and da da da,
51:41
Speaker 1: and he kind of finally figured out, I know, we
51:44
Speaker 1: all just need people like you can't like we're not
51:48
Speaker 1: an island. And yeah, I really that quite affected me
51:53
Speaker 1: that movie, and he rejected he rejected modernity, and he
51:57
Speaker 1: rejected you know, possessions and money and social expectations and yeah, yeah, yeah,
52:04
Speaker 1: so yeah.
52:05
Speaker 2: That was the fact he went to my university.
52:07
Speaker 1: Oh did he?
52:09
Speaker 2: I didn't know him. I'm not saying that I didn't.
52:11
Speaker 2: I don't know what year he was. He probably didn't
52:13
Speaker 2: go to school at the same time I was there.
52:15
Speaker 2: But yeah, but yeah, I found that out. Yeah that
52:18
Speaker 2: was a really moving and it stays with you that movie.
52:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a great That was a great film.
52:25
Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody. I don't know when it was,
52:29
Speaker 1: it was last week, I can't remember the day, but
52:33
Speaker 1: they said to me, like if if I was going
52:37
Speaker 1: to We were talking about just their life and you know,
52:39
Speaker 1: where you go, you know, people seem to keep making
52:46
Speaker 1: the same mistakes or they're in a kind of a
52:47
Speaker 1: groundhog day of bad behaviors and habits and rituals, and
52:51
Speaker 1: and they're like, what's the best question that I can
52:53
Speaker 1: ask myself? Oh, like, there's a million, right, But I said,
52:59
Speaker 1: here's a pretty good question if you ask it and
53:02
Speaker 1: you explore it and you answer it and then you
53:05
Speaker 1: do something about it. And the question is is what
53:08
Speaker 1: I'm doing working? Right? You can apply that to your food,
53:15
Speaker 1: your lifestyle, your sleep, your business, your relationships. And I'm like,
53:20
Speaker 1: because there are so many things that we do on
53:23
Speaker 1: autopilot that aren't working. Now, I know that seems overly simplistic,
53:30
Speaker 1: but I said to him. He actually went and got
53:33
Speaker 1: a serviette. We're at the Hamptons, and I go, so,
53:37
Speaker 1: write this question, is what I'm doing working? And then
53:40
Speaker 1: I gave him kind of fifteen areas of the human experience.
53:44
Speaker 1: I said, so apply that question to all of these
53:47
Speaker 1: different areas of your life, and then you could spend
53:50
Speaker 1: a week working on that. You could you know, well,
53:54
Speaker 1: what am I currently doing in regards to my health?
53:56
Speaker 1: What am I doing that's not working?
53:58
Speaker 2: Well?
53:58
Speaker 1: There are three things? Cool? What are the things great?
54:01
Speaker 1: No judgment, no self loathing, just awareness, awareness and courage
54:06
Speaker 1: and honesty. Cool. Now regarding those three things that aren't working,
54:10
Speaker 1: what could you do better? What is the solution?
54:13
Speaker 2: Now?
54:13
Speaker 1: Regarding that? What's one thing that you will do, will do,
54:18
Speaker 1: not hope to do, might do one thing that you
54:22
Speaker 1: will do, and then we you know, then we go
54:24
Speaker 1: through that for career, and then we go through that
54:27
Speaker 1: for perhaps you know, nutrition, or then we go through
54:29
Speaker 1: that for whatever it is, right, and I said, look
54:33
Speaker 1: at the end of that, you're going to have such
54:34
Speaker 1: a fucking gigantic to do list that you won't know
54:36
Speaker 1: where to start. Don't let that be a reason to
54:39
Speaker 1: not start. So then once we get that kind of
54:42
Speaker 1: that framework and that awareness and that acknowledgment, now then
54:46
Speaker 1: I want you to pick the five things that you
54:48
Speaker 1: really need to do. Don't don't throw the rest out,
54:50
Speaker 1: but let's just focus on, you know, creating some momentum
54:55
Speaker 1: and moving the needle on a few things. And I'm
54:58
Speaker 1: not talking about let's run a marriag fun in three weeks,
55:00
Speaker 1: so let's build an empire by fucking February. I'm just saying,
55:05
Speaker 1: let's start to move the needle. If you had to
55:09
Speaker 1: ask somebody like one of those kinds of questions, that
55:14
Speaker 1: might really give context too. And what I like about
55:19
Speaker 1: those kinds of questions is they're really broadly relevant. You
55:23
Speaker 1: can almost ask it about. Do you have a similar
55:26
Speaker 1: one that you ask people?
55:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a few, like you. I think one
55:32
Speaker 2: of them is again, like you said, it's super simple,
55:36
Speaker 2: but what is important to you, Like, what's actually important
55:40
Speaker 2: to you?
55:41
Speaker 1: Does that kind of coincide with what are my values?
55:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's the same pretty much the same question.
55:48
Speaker 2: And then the second one would be what's getting in
55:52
Speaker 2: the way? What are the obstacles? Because I think that's
55:56
Speaker 2: what people go around in circles because they're not actually
55:59
Speaker 2: they don't know why they can and then they just
56:03
Speaker 2: judge themselves and they just say something like their self
56:06
Speaker 2: sabotaging or something that's very broad and vague, and it's like, well,
56:10
Speaker 2: that's not going to actually help you remove an obstacle
56:13
Speaker 2: by labeling yourself. You actually have to know what they
56:16
Speaker 2: are and so you can do something specific about them.
56:20
Speaker 2: And then in terms of obstacles, then I will get
56:24
Speaker 2: them to think about well them in terms of categories,
56:28
Speaker 2: because I think there's so many different kinds of obstacles.
56:30
Speaker 2: So what are the emotional obstacles, what are the thoughts
56:36
Speaker 2: getting in the way, what are the behaviors getting in
56:39
Speaker 2: the way, what are the relationships getting in the way,
56:43
Speaker 2: and what are the circumstances that could be getting in
56:45
Speaker 2: the way. And I think that that like those two
56:49
Speaker 2: questions like what's important to you and what's getting in
56:51
Speaker 2: the way, can lead to what you're saying it's like, okay,
56:55
Speaker 2: if I have. If I have, then I can kind
56:58
Speaker 2: of well, what's important to me? Then I know what
56:59
Speaker 2: my goals and my values and goals are. And then well,
57:03
Speaker 2: if I'm not I haven't been able to reach my goals,
57:07
Speaker 2: then I really need some clarity about what's getting in
57:09
Speaker 2: the way. And if I look at them in those
57:12
Speaker 2: five categories, I'll be able to figure out, well, what
57:15
Speaker 2: are the main things. Is it because I'm telling myself
57:18
Speaker 2: that I can't or my definition of success is very
57:24
Speaker 2: black and white, or is it anxiety, you know, and
57:28
Speaker 2: fear that's getting in the way, or is it do
57:31
Speaker 2: I have people in my life that are actually creating difficulties? Yes,
57:38
Speaker 2: for however however they might be doing that. Are they
57:41
Speaker 2: putting are they putting blocks up? Or do I have
57:44
Speaker 2: too many things on my plate and I can't do
57:46
Speaker 2: it because of the relationships and the circumstances, Or there
57:51
Speaker 2: might be other circumstances like you know, I'm a care
57:54
Speaker 2: and I don't have time, or I have an injury,
57:58
Speaker 2: or you know, like there's there's so many different circumstance,
58:01
Speaker 2: financial circumstance things again in the way, Because it's quite
58:04
Speaker 2: a validating process too, So it's saying, like, you know,
58:08
Speaker 2: there are real reasons. It's not just about you being
58:13
Speaker 2: a person who can't do it. You know.
58:16
Speaker 1: It's not an exercise in self loathing. It's self aware, Yeah, exactly,
58:21
Speaker 1: it's self reflection. It's and I think it's okay to go, well,
58:26
Speaker 1: i've got a really sore ankle, I can't run, of course, cool,
58:29
Speaker 1: So what can you do though? Oh yeah, okay, what
58:32
Speaker 1: can you do? Also I've got no money. I can't
58:35
Speaker 1: join a gym. That's cool. You don't need money to
58:37
Speaker 1: be able to move your body or you know, whatever
58:40
Speaker 1: it is. And it's not we're not trying to throw
58:43
Speaker 1: anyone under the bus, but I think that, you know,
58:47
Speaker 1: like if I had two hundred people in a room,
58:49
Speaker 1: and I've done a version of this probably over a
58:51
Speaker 1: thousand times, and I say, put up your hand if
58:53
Speaker 1: there's something about you or your life or your lifestyle
58:56
Speaker 1: or your body or your outcomes something, don't overthink it,
58:59
Speaker 1: just be that you want to change that you want
59:02
Speaker 1: to change, and every hand goes up. Of course, I go,
59:05
Speaker 1: now put up your hand if there's multiple things, and
59:07
Speaker 1: every hand goes up. And because life happens around us
59:11
Speaker 1: and despite us and to us, you know, and it's
59:15
Speaker 1: like life happens anyway. You can be a passenger in
59:17
Speaker 1: your own life. You can. You can blink your eyes
59:21
Speaker 1: and it's fucking three years later, and you're telling yourself
59:24
Speaker 1: the same stories and you've still got the same intentions
59:27
Speaker 1: and the same plans and the same ideas, but you're
59:30
Speaker 1: still doing the same dumb shit, which is keeping you
59:32
Speaker 1: trapped in a psychological, emotional, physiological, clinical groundhog day because
59:37
Speaker 1: you're not actually doing anything to get out of those
59:41
Speaker 1: patterns and rituals that are keeping you trapped. So you know,
59:45
Speaker 1: and this is a real exercise size in self awareness
59:51
Speaker 1: and to go listen, my life ain't going to fix itself.
59:54
Speaker 1: My health, my immune system, my shitty posture, my fucking
59:59
Speaker 1: overthinking mind. Like that's not going to just one day
1:00:02
Speaker 1: be better. I need to do some work and I
1:00:05
Speaker 1: need to identify one, what are the things that I
1:00:08
Speaker 1: need to or want to change? In two what is
1:00:10
Speaker 1: the work that I need to do?
1:00:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I love that that right versus effective thing,
1:00:17
Speaker 2: like like I use that all the time with my clients.
1:00:21
Speaker 2: I think it's so so haigh And for myself. And
1:00:24
Speaker 2: it's so great into personally because we can get into
1:00:27
Speaker 2: these like you know, wanting to be right in an
1:00:30
Speaker 2: argument for instance, it's like, hold on, what's my aim here?
1:00:34
Speaker 2: Like am I Am I going to achieve my aim
1:00:36
Speaker 2: by like continuing to want to be right? Or do
1:00:39
Speaker 2: I need to think about what's going to be effective
1:00:41
Speaker 2: in the situation. But I think that people can get
1:00:43
Speaker 2: really stuck in like what should be, which should be
1:00:47
Speaker 2: you know, easier to reach my goals for instance, and
1:00:52
Speaker 2: not really looking at what actually the reality is. It's like, well,
1:00:55
Speaker 2: let's accept the reality that it's actually not easy and
1:00:59
Speaker 2: that it's full and you have you know, you have
1:01:03
Speaker 2: to do A before B and you know, and and
1:01:08
Speaker 2: that that doesn't have to be something you judge yourself
1:01:11
Speaker 2: for if your pace is a little bit different to
1:01:13
Speaker 2: somebody else's or your A is further from the further
1:01:17
Speaker 2: from the B than it is for somebody else. Yes,
1:01:21
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think judgment is and you've said that,
1:01:24
Speaker 2: but self loathing thing that people can can get into
1:01:28
Speaker 2: is that's what keeps people really really stuck and certainly
1:01:32
Speaker 2: one of the main obstacles to getting things done.
1:01:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you can like these things can
1:01:38
Speaker 1: coexist where I can say, okay, so I fucked up,
1:01:42
Speaker 1: all right, just putting out my hand. I fucked up.
1:01:45
Speaker 1: I made a decision, I spoke out a turn, or
1:01:48
Speaker 1: I did a dumb thing whatever, without going, ah, you're
1:01:52
Speaker 1: a fucking idiot, you know. I like, yeah, I'm a
1:01:56
Speaker 1: more on. I always do stupid things. I'm so dumb. No, No,
1:02:00
Speaker 1: I did a dumb thing. Perhaps I made a bad decision.
1:02:03
Speaker 1: I took about action. I created an outcome I didn't want. Okay, one,
1:02:06
Speaker 1: what can I learn? What will I do differently? What
1:02:10
Speaker 1: am I going to do now? Like, what's my action now?
1:02:13
Speaker 1: And so, of course you're flawed. Of course you're an idiot,
1:02:17
Speaker 1: and then of course you're brilliant, and of course you
1:02:20
Speaker 1: have peaks and troughs, and of course you're sad and
1:02:22
Speaker 1: now you're happy, and of course you have breakthroughs and breakdowns.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: Of course, you know this is the human experience. We're
1:02:29
Speaker 1: not telling you not to be broken, because sometimes you're
1:02:33
Speaker 1: going to be and sometimes you're going to be a
1:02:35
Speaker 1: bit brilliant, you know. So the challenge is, let's navigate
1:02:39
Speaker 1: being human, but let's control our controllables and let's try
1:02:43
Speaker 1: to live consciously and proactively rather than unconsciously and reactively.
1:02:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that going back to what we
1:02:52
Speaker 2: were talking about before, I think that that level of
1:02:55
Speaker 2: acceptance without judgment is where contentment lives, and that you
1:03:00
Speaker 2: can have that and still know that you can do
1:03:03
Speaker 2: and be better. Right, Yeah, and that's still contentment.
1:03:11
Speaker 1: I don't know if we helped anyone tonight, but you know,
1:03:14
Speaker 1: it was good to chat.
1:03:15
Speaker 2: Always to chat with you.
1:03:17
Speaker 1: Where can people connect with you, Doc.
1:03:21
Speaker 2: Lili dot com, Doctor Lilian dot com. I should know.
1:03:26
Speaker 2: My own website is a good place and contain your brain.
1:03:29
Speaker 2: Dot com is another good place if you want to
1:03:31
Speaker 2: calm down some of those those thoughts and ruminate, ruminating
1:03:35
Speaker 2: thoughts and worries that you have.
1:03:38
Speaker 1: Giddy up but a coup. Always love chatting with you.
1:03:40
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbar off here, but thanks for hanging out
1:03:44
Speaker 1: yet again, thank you for having me