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The Heart Of A Leader with Dan Steel · Vox ministries Podcast

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, great.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Vox podcast, the very first podcast we've had.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Dan's been very patient with me as we've tried to set this up.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: we've often spoken about our mutual friend, Zach Eswine and the Imperfect Pastor.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like the Imperfect Podcaster with you this morning.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dan, welcome.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: For those who don't know you,
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: do you want to just tell us a bit about yourself,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: where you live, what you're involved in, family life?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, Dan Steele, I live in Oxford.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working now just outside Oxford in a place called Yonson Manor.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm married to Zoe and we've been married for 26 years.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is 26 years, yeah.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get that right.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have four kids,
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: two and a half at home and then one who's kind of flown the nest,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: although comes back for some holidays.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: My wife Zoe is... Comes back for
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: doing the washing, is it?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, it's more wanting a free holiday, but that's fine.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: We enjoy having her back.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: My wife is a part-time doctor working as a GP, but in hospital.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: For a number of years,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was pastor at Magdalen Road Church in Oxford,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And before that, a church plant in Birmingham.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I now work at a place called Yanton Manor,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: which is why my background,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: if you're watching this, looks a bit unreal, but that is genuinely where I work.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're not sort of Lord of the Manor.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: You actually work there.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we're thinking a bit about today in terms of thinking about leadership and really
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: the heart of a leader and the character of leadership.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been involved in leadership.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: How many years would you say you've been involved in sort of ministry leadership, would you say?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Paid ministry leadership since 2002,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: so what's that,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: 24 years,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: but then before that I was part of a church plant and probably fast-tracked
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: into different areas of responsibility that you wouldn't normally have as a kid.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So fresh out of uni we were involved in a church plant in Birmingham
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: and Lord was very kind in giving us opportunities but also Helping us to learn
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: and providing something of what we needed,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: although perhaps not quite the wisdom that we'll talk about shortly.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you've had 20 plus years experience of leadership.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: As a leader,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: if you were to sort of speak to your 25 year old self,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: which is a scary thought, isn't it?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to that 25 year old in life, do you think?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think probably the foundational thing,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: which is a thing that perhaps we'll talk about more in a bit as well,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: is just the importance of character over competence.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think within the evangelical world,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: we particularly prize gifting and we prize being able to do things well,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: to speak well, to be excellent in different things.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas actually,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think the thing that lasts and really matters is not so much the competence,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: but actually the character in terms of who you are.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And your godliness.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't that those things didn't matter,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: but I think in terms of where I would have focused or what I thought mattered most,
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: it would be that sort of stuff.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore to slow down,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: therefore to Not try and do quite so much
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: to care less about what others thought
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: of me.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more about doing a quiet,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: faithful job of kind of plodding rather than trying to be impressive or do things to
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: a super high standard at the expense of other things.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think reflection when you think,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: when you're in your 20s,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: you have a lot more energy than you do in your 40s or 50s or 60s.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose the temptation to go faster is
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: because you probably have more physical energy as well.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: But what is that temptation for a 20-something to go faster rather than just physically?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's behind that wanting to go fast, do you think?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, interesting.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look back to when that was in the early noughties, then tech was just getting going.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore you had the capacity to begin to do more stuff.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever it was iPhones came in 2008, so you could always be productive.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a right sense in which,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: of course, we,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: as you say,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: had more energy, perhaps, and didn't need quite as much sleep or as much rest.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: you're trying to prove yourself,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: or I was trying to prove myself,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps trying to squeeze too much into
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: For us it was at the beginning of
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: a church plant as well,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: so we weren't the planters at this point, but it was definitely a lot going on.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: For the capability and possibility of doing stuff.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: in hindsight,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: you look back and think, well,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if we thought a bit too much mattered or hung off us rather
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: than slowing down and doing it carefully and in a way that was grounded and rooted
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: in the right kind of stuff, in prayer.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you've been in different ministry settings.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of your experience as a leader, what has been both encouraging and challenging?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because we all know that leadership's really easy, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, the answer to both is people in one sense, isn't it?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it often is the encouragement is God taking and using our weak and feeble efforts
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: and seeing lives transformed or people changed.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a genuine joy, I mean, honestly, to see that,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I see folk who are now in different areas of responsibility around the globe
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: who we had for a time in our church and the Lord has blessed them and used them
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: and kept them.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a real encouragement.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing, if you like,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: things work,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: things change,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: people becoming more like the Lord Jesus,
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: people being baptised, people becoming Christians.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's a real thrill.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: The challenge again is people, isn't it?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the things that don't go as you want,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: people who wander off or walk away or disappointments and frustrations.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps it's the ability to...
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the challenge is for when things go wrong or when people critique
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: or give you feedback,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: shall we say,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: but to remain soft-hearted that you hear that in the right way but
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: then not grow hardened to it so that you're calloused and you sort of draw away
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: from other people.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there have been various challenges along the way,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: not necessarily in my 25-year-old self,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: but along the way to have difficulties,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: with the local community as we sought to buy a church building,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: difficulties with individuals who would be critical.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all kinds of stuff.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's what do I need to hear and what is legitimate?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yet what then do I leave?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: But also how do I do I keep soft hearted and sensitive and humble in the midst of that?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's helpful.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So unpacking that a little bit more and thinking a little bit further on these sort of things.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: When we think about leadership, we can sometimes think it's about having expertise.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's about having knowledge.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's about being skilled.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And none of those things sometimes in themselves are particularly wrong.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But we biblically,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think we might sort of think of these things as being a little bit of a kind
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: of 2D version of leadership.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: What could be leadership as opposed to sort of a fuller 3D version?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we know in the Bible, it says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we can be tempted...
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: As leaders, as humans, but as leaders, to live foolishly or to live wisely.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: In your own sort of experience in ministry, what's helped you live wisely, firstly?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then secondly, what's helped you live?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not helped you live.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where have you been unwise?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where have you been unwise?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of the living wisely thing,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've got four S's for E, Clive, so I do a bit of preaching in there.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, very good.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you get points for S's.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: One would obviously be the scriptures and just as far as you can being rooted,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: grounded, dependent upon always in the scriptures.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we've both benefited from someone like
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: a Zach Eswine who's particularly helping us think through books like Proverbs as to
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: where that sort of wisdom comes from and how we understand different people.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So scriptures must be one.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: In ministry,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: you have the privilege of being able to be in the scriptures
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: because often you are having to prepare for the next Sunday or the next Bible study
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: or something.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's that ability to not just prepare to sort of sit over it, but sit under it yourself.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So number one in scriptures, two would be saints, people.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Put good and godly and wise people around you.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Again, Proverbs would give you the pros and cons.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Put good and wise people and not mockers and scorners and people who are unwise
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: who can influence.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe in that,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: in our current culture, I think that can depend on the voices you listen to as well.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I can, I mean,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: the algorithms are unhelpful online,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: and I think I can,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: at times,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can see whoever it is,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Facebook or X or something is giving me people that it thinks I want to listen to,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: but are unhelpful.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So voices, so scriptures, saints.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Another,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: a third one,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: and this is something that I'm still wrestling with, is a kind of self-awareness.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So how well do we know ourselves?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it occurred to me,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: well, it Probably 10 years ago now that I just didn't really understand myself.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure I still do,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: but I think we can do very little by way of self-reflection or self-understanding,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: which can then impact all kinds of other decisions we make as well.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the why questions and what's going on in my heart here
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: and why did I respond or react in that way?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a wisdom and leadership that comes from knowing ourselves well.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just before you get to that fourth S. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Interject on that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Of course you can.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've raised a really good point there about self-awareness.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was speaking at Christian Union Weekend away about a year ago,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: and I was reflecting on,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know, when it says about love your neighbor as yourself.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I hadn't really pondered on this in a deeper way,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I My hunch is that somebody like Tim Keller is an incredible guy.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: We were so grateful for many, many things.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder whether sometimes what happens is The zeitgeist of the day in a lot of,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Tim Keller's life was self-help,
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: self-expression, self-actualization, it's all self, self, self.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so as Christians,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: we tend to sort of go on the other side of the seesaw and say, well,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's not about self,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: but then actually we don't think about what the redeemed self looks like and
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: then how that impacts us as a leader.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're to love our neighbor as ourself,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Even on the very base level of getting up and having a wash and brushing your teeth
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: and feeding yourself is a loving thing to do, isn't it?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just wonder whether sometimes again within the circles that we operate in,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Whether we're sort of in danger of obliterating the self.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think self is usually a dirty word still within much evangelicalism in the circles
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: that I move in.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yet there may be some truth in that,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: but I think there is a wisdom in trying to understand why I respond in this way
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: or how I've been formed in this way, both through the good and the bad.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back at kind of family of origin stuff,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: all those sorts of things actually are quite helpful and mean that we are able
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: to lead ourselves better and therefore lead others better.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just a question of kind of navel gazing,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: but actually it's a question of, well,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: if I understand me better,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can lead myself better and then lead people around me better.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I give you my fourth S and then I've got a non S as well.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the fourth S is kind of speed or slowing down.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is something I don't always get right, but yeah.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it's triaging the importance of decisions and how we make decisions.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Some decisions need to be made quickly.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Most don't.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I think we try and do things too quickly.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: To slow, to ponder, to pray, to delay decisions more than we normally do.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So then my four S's, that was, was it scripture, saints, self-awareness and slowing down.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then the fifth one,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I need to be careful,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: but I think I've seen bad leadership in others or unwise leadership in others
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: or unwise living in others.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that has shaped some of the way that I try and do leadership.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're a folk that I've seen from a distance or folk that I've seen quite close up.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And because of the way they have responded or reacted or things that they've said,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've thought, I don't want to do it like that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there is a wisdom you get in Proverbs as well and a couple of places.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: To not make the mistakes of others is actually wise living.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've very deliberately sought to put things in place
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: that have meant I don't stumble in the ways that they do.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe my fifth S should be stumbling, but yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be a good one.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're buying that, isn't it?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: There
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: we go.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: all that stuff is really helpful and I just think it does show you,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't it, even just what you've said.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: The layers to probably self-awareness as a leader,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know, even the fact you've reflected on those five X's.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: If we're just in pragmatic,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: functional,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: go, go, go mode, how much time do we have to reflect upon where we're at?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that leads to my next point is you're probably aware or...
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: People that are listening or watching of a book by James K.A.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Smith called You Are What You Love, The Spiritual Power of Habit.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in that book,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: he says Jesus is a teacher who doesn't just inform our intellect,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: but forms our very loves.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: He isn't content to simply deposit new ideas into your mind.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: He is after nothing less than your wants, your loves, your longings.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess when...
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: You spoke earlier on about speaking to your 25-year-old self about character.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess so much of what it comes back to, isn't it, Dan, is our hearts.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And many of us can be busy as leaders.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And in my experience,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: meeting other leaders,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's pastors or other leaders of organizations,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: our own devotional life Whether that's people spend half an hour in a chair
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: or 40 minutes walking and praying and thinking can be a challenge, isn't it?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: How much of a challenge has that been to you, do you think, over these different seasons?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is still a challenge now and I think it's partly that having to learn and to adapt.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Routines are quite important for me and partly just,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: we have four children and life is complicated and busy and so to try and make sure
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: that The day to day to do list doesn't squeeze out the most important thing.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so even like even now,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: one of my mantras that again, I don't always hold on to as I ought is.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's my preaching, but it's the worship before work.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it mean to get my heart in the right place before I then open my inbox
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: and get on with emails?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know there will be a dozen emails at least that next morning.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the tendency can be, or my tendency can be, I just need to kind of crack on with them.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And once I've done some of that, then I'll feel in a better place and more able to...
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: To worship or to study or whatever it might be.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: But actually,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I found if I get those the wrong way around,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: then that can set me out of kilter for the rest of the day
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: because there's always more emails that will come in.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do my dozen emails and I think I'll press pause.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, there's still more to come.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as I stop doing that,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: then I much more have a tendency to look towards,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: measurables in ministry,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: numbers,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: nothing in and of itself wrong with a number or whether it's a number of people
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: or number of emails or compliments or whatever it might be or money coming in or all
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: that sort of stuff.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: But actually number has a way of doing strange things to our hearts.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that sort of intimacy first is still a challenge.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's partly because I'm in a new season and trying
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: to work out how I make sure those things are prioritised.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: But there'll be various things that have helped me in that, I'd say, as well, if that's useful.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So what, in terms of a rhythm, Do you have identifiable rhythms there?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you spoke about at the start of the day.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is there things through the day?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things weekly?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things monthly?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are there things yearly?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or not?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say there have been different rhythms of different seasons.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: So currently my rhythm would be I get up.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Usually before everybody else,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: right through the week and I will listen to you and sort of do
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: a devotional thing whilst I am emptying and reloading the dishwasher because
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: as we sing in our house, The never-ending dishwasher song is freaky.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just in the kitchen, but trying to sort of get my heart in the right place.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I listen to that devotional, and then I will almost always go on to...
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: A particular album on Spotify,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: and the first song I always start with as well is not the start of the album,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: but it's one from the end of Isaiah,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: 40, those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just because I feel that weakness every morning in needing
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: to remind myself of that truth and look to him for the strength that I need.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then different things through the day.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So here at Yantamana,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: we have a morning prayer,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Monday through Thursday,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: which I think you've been at and we are very thankful for that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a helpful pause before you again get into emails and do that sort of stuff.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Historically, I've gone out for walks.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Walks are helpful for me to get out.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like you're more of a praying than walking guy or sitting in the chair
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: and praying guy?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I need to keep it fresh.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a great friend at a church when I was working in Birmingham.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: We were planting a church from this church and the women's worker just...
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was just something she said and just like, oh, well, that's okay.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're allowed to do that.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes she would like have a month in one verse and just ruminate
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: and meditate and chew and ponder and pray.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes she'd be reading like three chapters,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: four chapters a day,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: but for her,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: or for me to hear her say that she needs to vary it because she will get stuck
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: and you sort of end up going through the motions was super helpful for me.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say I'm more of an activity person than a sitting still person,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: but that again is part of that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay for me to have the personality that I have and to be wired in the way that I'm wired.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: that self-awareness is useful for that because if you think you've just got to fit
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: into everybody else's way of doing it.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, we can feel quite straightjacketed, I think, in terms of devotion.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think for me, in that regard, I think you're right.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can get stuck in,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Though there's many things available online now,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: like Bible apps,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: people will say,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in this plan,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've finished this plan,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on a 50-day streak,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm more holy now because I've kind of did 50 days to read the Bible
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: and I haven't missed one day.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting as we've been talking,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: we can think about these conversations in the physical,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: like in the room with a person.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you spoke about algorithms online and also the things
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: that are tools like Bible app
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: and other things can also become potentially straitjackets as well, can't they?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's keeping that fresh.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I find there's a kind of The number seven is helpful, isn't it?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think one in seven, we should be resting.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then once a month,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: once every seven weeks,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I would go away and try and have half a day walking and praying.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, you've got your once every seven years is practical.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that kind of seven rhythm is an interesting one.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And actually,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: even if you're certainly in the UK where we're based,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of The school system, interestingly, isn't it?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's that half terms are often every seven weeks, I think.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's something about that rhythm of rest.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But also in that, I think there were sections of the church.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I might be talking totally rubbish here, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that...
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Some sections of the church would have divided the day into seven parts.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than just we have morning, afternoon, evening.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the 24 hours would be divided into seven.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not so sure you're that keen at getting up at two in the morning.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something historically about the fact that we have electricity
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: and people went to bed when it was dark and got up when it was light.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, that's a by the by, but it's kind of connected, isn't it?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Algorithms of life and the business, yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So just in relation to that,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: like, what advice would you give younger leaders who are starting out?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: We spoke about your 25-year-old self,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: what you would say to yourself,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: but you've been involved in church leadership,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: you've been involved in an organisation there at Yelton Manor.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: let's just say somebody was younger,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, 30-something, early 30s, starting a church plant.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to them about their character guarding their hearts?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: we touched on it already slightly,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: but there is a sense in which we can easily become defined by the things that we do.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the measurables of numbers, even as you're saying there, the kind of Bible reading streaks.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in one sense, who cares?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: You would rather have one decent devotional with the Lord,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: engaging with the Lord,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: rather than 50 days of just going through the motions and reading Letters on a page
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: that don't actually engage with you.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: So one is something to do with your character and tied in with your identity.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's understandable that the things that we do
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: can influence or begin
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: to shape how we see ourselves.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: in one sense,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: that's perfectly natural and normal,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: but in another,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's something we want to guard against because we are first and foremost not
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: a planter, pastor, minister.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: We are a son or a daughter.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: We are loved.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when those things get kind of skewiffed, then we get into trouble.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think, again, within the planting sort of realm, you can be very busy at the beginning.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, that's understandable because there's quite a lot of stuff to do.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it may be that you have to do it because you might be the only person with
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: the time or who's kind of employed to do it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: But learning then to slow down a bit and I'd say to learn to plod.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So as with a cross country race, my son's a good runner.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: You sprint at the beginning because you want to get a decent position.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you carry at that pace, you're done by two kilometers in.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to learn to slow to a more manageable, sensible.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've always talked about the need to learn to march.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: That is,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: rather than sprinting,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: collapsing,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: sprinting, collapsing, that you're going at a decent 80% pace the whole time.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: within that,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: you've got your rest and you've got your one in seven and you've got your time away.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not because you are on the edge of burnout,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: ideally,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: but because you are putting rest in the bank so that you can carry on at
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: a decent pace when you come back again.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the one more thing again would be to make sure that you put the right stuff
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: in your week first so you set your diary,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: you control your diary rather than your diary controlling you and therefore
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: to prioritise time in the scriptures and prayer,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: to prioritise family I think because often if we're married or we have kids
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: The busyness of planting and the tendency that we have to find our identity and
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: the success of the plant can end up meaning that
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: we don't give the time that we need
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: to our family.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that then has implications because that means that they don't want to be there
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: or they may not want to be there.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there's this sort of tension between the pastor planter with
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: the human spouse versus the pastor planter with the church.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that creates all kinds of difficulties at home,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: which then impacts on the ministry itself as well.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So don't try and do too much.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do try and plod.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do put the right things in first.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in one sense,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine most pasta planters would be nodding and saying,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: the people that need to hear this really are the funders and
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: the denominational leaders who are expecting plants to grow quickly,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: etc., when often they don't.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, slow down
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: a bit.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And in the midst of that,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: I guess from what you're saying is if you're remembering your identity,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: you're remembering you're in Christ,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: you're dearly loved, then you're trusting God to build his church.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, isn't it right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it some scary stat that won it?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it like 30% of...
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Plants don't work, or am I making that one up?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a quite,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that stat is legitimate,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it comes largely from the States, which is a different kind of planting culture.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've had lots of friends in the UK,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: but in the US as well,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: for whom planting hasn't gone as they expected and didn't work.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that number feels high to me from at least the plants around the UK.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more of an American style, maybe.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, the premise is the same, isn't it?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's about being faithful.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so your idea of marching is a really strong image because I was just thinking,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: if you take, again,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: the algorithms of social media like Strava,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: if people don't know what that is,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: it's an app to measure,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know, when you've been out on a 5K run or hill walking or whatever.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: The temptation to run faster all the time,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: if you're recording that on Strava,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: is there because it's measurable and it's public, isn't it?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you were true to how we are supposed to train in running,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: you would have what we would call easier runs, slower runs.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't actually look great in terms of social media if somebody is running a lot slower.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding is that these ones are needed as well as the ones
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: where you're going to do interval training, go faster and faster.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea of marching is a really interesting one.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: When you parallel that with striving, isn't it?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if you only ever do sprinting and then, I mean,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: it damages you and you can't do the next set of intervals the next day
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: because you need the recovery time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, completely.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been moved towards a close then.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking a bit about Yarnton Manor,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: for those that don't know it,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: it seems to me that, well,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: it is a big manor and you have got a big library, but you've got a range of things.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say the vision is evolving to some extent for the ministry side of things,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: particularly we talk about proactive and reactive care for ministry individuals.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So reactive care would be people coming on the retreat because they're struggling
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: and needing a bit of space.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And just the time to rest and to reflect.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe they're bringing some difficult situations with them.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're just on the edge of burnout and needing to slow down.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we've partnered with a lovely organisation here Who will pay for a couple
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: of nights for a ministry couple.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: If that's ever useful, then do get in contact and we can point you towards that.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: The proactive ministry care is sort of putting on events that we hope will be useful
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: for that kind of marching mettle.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That you might slow down for a bit and come for a day, maybe a day of teaching.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: We call them re-equips and we've got them planned now through till next May of next year.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So most of them on the website, but the rest are just going up shortly.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: We have these things called revives as well.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're just starting this in September.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: We trialed one and it went really well.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a sort of guided retreat.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, I don't think evangelicals do particularly guided retreats.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or perhaps that's unfair,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: but I couldn't find anything around here that was sort of cost efficient
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: and did quite what I was after.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially we'll spend a day in maybe a psalm or a Bible text
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: with maybe three little shepherds.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not looking to go away with a notebook full of notes and a better grasp of
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: the passage,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: but we are wanting to actually lift the bonnet slightly and try
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: and work out what does that mean for me.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does this psalm actually, how does it speak to me in my context?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because most of us have got notebooks full of notes and ideas and thoughts
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: and content,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: but what we actually need is a space to know ourselves a bit better and to apply and
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: to pray.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then, again,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: if you're watching online,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: you can see behind me,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: we've got a fairly extraordinary place to meet with a sort of manor house and
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: a library and opportunities to...
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: For people to come and hire stuff or for us to put other things on as well.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're also doing a whole academic thing too,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: and that's particularly seeking to encourage and support Christians in the academy,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: whether that be Oxford,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: where we're four miles outside Oxford, or whether it's from around the globe.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking to try and support and encourage Christians Folk for whom that is their vocation.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very hard to be a Christian in that context.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to gather people together to encourage them and sort
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: of keep them going and think about how we train the next generation.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a link with the Lanier in this one in America, that's right.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Houston,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: so Mark Lanier is the kind of funder who is an American lawyer who loves the Lord
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: and he set up something in Houston and has essentially acquired property
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: where we are here in Oxford with a view to do something
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: that is contextually appropriate.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not quite the same as Houston, but lots of overlap and lots of friendship.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll put those details up online if people want to find out more about that.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're sort of,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: we can put details about if people want to find out about the stuff that you said.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: What was it again?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Reactive?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Re-equip and revive, yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Re-equip and revive, yeah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it was re-something.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Re-something, yeah.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, brilliant.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: thanks so much for joining us,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: and thanks so much for being the first podcast on Vox Ministries podcast,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: even if the screen behind me has changed the subject on Sky or something.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Watching Sky Sports, that's it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's the imperfect podcast again.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great to sort of connect with you and look forward to seeing you again
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: in Oxford sometime and
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: post as well.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for your
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: time, Dan.