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The Secret History of Mayonnaise: From Military Victory to Your Fridge · Family Tree Food Stories

0:03
Nancy May: Hey everybody.
0:04
It's Nancy and Sylvia once again with Family Tree Food and Stories,
0:07
and here we are exploring all sorts of dishes and ingredients and
0:11
traditions that shape our lives.
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0:54
Anyway, this show, we're talking about something that's familiar to everybody,
0:59
that we can hardly not think about it at some point in the course of a day or
1:02
a week, and it shows up in our kitchens across the country and has for many
1:07
generations, and that's mayonnaise.
1:11
But Sylvia, before we start, I have a question for you
1:14
Sylvia Lovely: Sure.
1:15
Nancy May: actually.
1:16
It's not a question, it's a confession.
1:19
Sylvia Lovely: I love
1:19
that.
1:20
Yeah.
1:21
Nancy May: Sunday, it's Thursday, but maybe we should call it confession.
1:24
Thursday.
1:25
So I have had an addiction to mayonnaise over my life.
1:30
I love
1:32
Sylvia Lovely: that's a good thing.
1:33
Nancy May: mayonnaise, sandwiches, just like May bread and mayonnaise.
1:36
I
1:37
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, that's weird.
1:37
No.
1:38
yeah, Now you're
1:38
Nancy May: do two pieces of cheese and mayonnaise.
1:41
I could do Mayo Cucumber.
1:43
I could do May on a salad, I could do Mayo mixed with anything.
1:46
You can add Chipotle with it, so you get Mayo sauce.
1:50
And my dad loved Miracle Whip, which I liked as a kid, but I think now is
1:54
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
1:54
Oh
1:55
Nancy May: thing ever.
1:56
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, I agree with you.
1:58
Well, you'll be forgiven,
1:59
Nancy May: Thank you.
2:00
Sylvia Lovely: that, that, thank you for the confession, though.
2:02
You're an addict and you know, we'll help you in your recovery.
2:05
Nancy May: Sister Sylvia, thank you.
2:07
Sylvia Lovely: keep eating it.
2:09
Hey, uh, yeah, let's talk Mayo.
2:12
have you ever held your ear up to the refrigerator door and listened in
2:17
on the great condiment triumvirate?
2:20
Nancy May: Not really, no.
2:21
Sylvia Lovely: go.
2:21
Okay.
2:22
Well try it sometimes because right in the door, probably behind the pickles will
2:27
be the three ketchup, mustard and mayo.
2:31
And I bet they talk to each other
2:33
Nancy May: It's like the Trinity, right?
2:35
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, it's like the Trinity.
2:36
yeah, if you open refrigerators across America, chances are those three jars
2:41
are sitting there like old friends who have known each other for decades, and
2:45
it is almost like they're talking because they're such a part of our lives as.
2:49
You confessed.
2:50
but lately, you know what, Mayo has been getting a little bit of a bad
2:54
reputation and we all know that health trends come and go and suddenly people
2:59
say they're abandoning mayo in favor of olive oil or vinegarette, poor mayo.
3:04
It's gone from staple to suspect almost overnight.
3:06
And so maybe in this episode we can help kind of rehab it a
3:10
little bit, cause it's kind of an important element of our food stuff.
3:15
Nancy May: I agree with you, and it's so interesting when we think
3:18
about the essentials of Manis.
3:20
On everything from generations, right?
3:22
And on a burger, on a ham sandwich.
3:26
ham, Swiss cheese, mayo, oh, and mayonnaise has got to be
3:31
incorporated in cole slaw.
3:32
Lots of it, right?
3:33
And potato
3:34
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
3:35
Nancy May: I don't know how the world got along without mayonnaise.
3:38
It's the quiet ingredient that has made so many dishes work, and I
3:43
think they even put mayonnaise in.
3:45
Wasn't there a recipe for mayonnaise in like a, a jello salad at some point
3:50
Sylvia Lovely: Oh yeah.
3:50
I think there is.
3:51
Nancy May: kind of somewhere weird along the
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way,
3:53
Sylvia Lovely: pretty, much a staple in those picnics.
3:55
Nancy May: Right.
3:56
So how do mayonnaise become so deeply woven into the American
3:59
food tradition in the first place?
4:00
You know that story?
4:02
Sylvia Lovely: I will, uh, also say that sometimes there's
4:04
a marriage that takes place.
4:07
Like I like Michael Coleslaw with mayo and mustard.
4:11
Ah.
4:12
Nancy May: Oh yeah.
4:13
A little bit of zing or
4:14
wasabi.
4:15
Yeah, wasabi is good too.
4:17
Sylvia Lovely: well, you realize Mayo is just more than a condiment.
4:20
It's the backbone of dishes.
4:21
It shows up at family gatherings, community events, and, deviled
4:25
eggs were coming up on the season.
4:27
I love it.
4:28
potato salad at summer picnics.
4:30
Yes.
4:31
And again, coleslaw beside a barbecue plate, nothing
4:33
better is there to have that.
4:35
Coleslaw sitting there, kind of rub your meat into that
4:38
and eat them in one big bite.
4:40
It's the ingredient that really pulls it all together.
4:43
and along the way we're gonna talk about this, it has sparked some surprisingly
4:48
strong brand loyalties, and we'll talk a little bit about that too.
4:52
But we're gonna talk about the history first.
4:54
Nancy May: Absolutely.
4:55
So understand that mayonnaise, we have to start first with a little kitchen science.
5:00
What makes mayonnaise possible is something called emulsion, which is
5:05
simply mean a combining of two ingredients that normally refuse to mix together
5:09
like oil and water, or water separates from just about anything that's greasy.
5:14
I don't say greasy because oil isn't necessarily greasy,
5:16
it's just kind of oily.
5:17
Sylvia Lovely: Oily.
5:18
Yeah.
5:18
Nancy May: Egg yolks that contain an emulsifier that
5:21
allow them to come together.
5:22
So bill Knight, the science guy, we should probably have him on sometime,
5:26
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, I love
5:27
Nancy May: right?
5:29
Or beaker, the test tube character with the Muppets, right?
5:32
But when you whisk these two together, the oil slowly.
5:36
And the egg yolk and the vinegar, little lemon juice, and of course some mustard.
5:41
You get a little either wet mustard, it's Dijon mustard or dry mustard, and then all
5:46
of a sudden with these ingredients come together magically and make mayonnaise.
5:51
Have you ever made your own mayonnaise?
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Sylvia Lovely: No, I've tried to make my own vinegarette and I always
5:55
go back to the cream-based ones.
5:57
I don't know why I try to eat just some of them, but that's also kind of a myth
6:01
if you consider the elements of Mayo, it's really not that bad if you think about it.
6:07
I mean, I think everybody just, it's got a bad wrap, it's full
6:09
of fat, that kind of thing, and
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Nancy May: Well, I think what's happened is the commercial brands become a little,
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I wouldn't say less healthy 'cause I wanna give them a bad rap on that,
6:17
but it's all the extra chemicals that make itself shelf, shelf stabilized.
6:22
But there is nothing more satisfying, I'd say, than making your own
6:26
mayonnaise because it's really very easy to do and it's kind of fun to
6:29
see how they all come together and whip up and then it's never white.
6:35
It's kind of a creamy, yellowy
6:37
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah,
6:38
Yeah.
6:38
You lose me on that.
6:39
Okay.
6:40
I'm the convenience gal in the family.
6:43
Alright.
6:43
But anyway, lemme tell you a little bit about the history.
6:46
We think, and there's a lot of myth that grew up around Mayo, which most important
6:50
things have myths growing up around them.
6:52
it approached in the 18th century Europe, most likely in France or
6:56
Spain, and there's a popular story, connects it to the port city of
6:59
Mayon on the island of Menorca.
7:02
Have you been there?
7:03
I
7:04
Nancy May: No, but it sounds wonderful.
7:07
Sylvia Lovely: does does sound wonderful.
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After a French military victory there in 1756, a chef.
7:13
Created that sauce made from eggs and oil and it became known as mahona,
7:18
M-A-H-O-N-N-A-I-S-E, which later became mayonnaise and now, you know,
7:24
I don't care if it's true or not.
7:25
That's kind of a cool story.
7:27
I'll go with it.
7:28
But it spread throughout Europe's cooking during that period.
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Nancy May: You know, I wonder whether Holland's has
7:34
anything to do with mayonnaise
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Sylvia Lovely: Well, I looked a little bit into that Holland days and a lot
7:40
of these sauces have more mayo than maybe we know chefs may not confess.
7:46
And if you think about it, they're cream base, so why not, but again,
7:50
Mayo kinda lost its vaulted, place in the world of being fine dining.
7:55
' Nancy May: Right, and you think of Mayo as de class.
7:58
I I would even say that probably some chefs consider mayonnaise if
8:03
you ask for mayonnaise on things
8:05
Sylvia Lovely: Oh yeah.
8:05
As
8:06
Nancy May: like asking for ketchup.
8:08
Sylvia Lovely: yeah, that's right.
8:09
Nancy May: mayonnaise was considered to be a fairly refined sauce, something
8:13
that you might see in elegant kitchens.
8:15
Rather than the everyday m But when it crossed the Atlantic Cross the
8:20
pond, darling, its role changed dramatically instead of remaining
8:24
a fancy accomplishment, to meets or an accompaniment, I should say, not
8:28
an accomplishment, an accompaniment.
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To meats and fishes.
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It became the foundation of a whole series of family dishes that American
8:36
cooks began using in salads, like you said, potato salad, chicken salad.
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Oh, like one of the best chicken salads I've ever made was a recipe
8:44
that came from my mom's best friend who's a southern girl, Southern
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Pines, I think it's North Carolina.
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she told us to put chunks of pineapple in your chicken salad.
8:54
Sylvia Lovely: Oh yeah.
8:55
Yeah.
8:55
Nancy May: Right.
8:56
That's not a northern thing.
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Yeah.
8:57
And also a little walnuts like a Waldorf
9:00
salad.
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Sylvia Lovely: perfect.
9:02
Nancy May: Delicious.
9:03
Sylvia Lovely: Just perfect.
9:04
Nancy May: and you can't forget putting a little bit of mustard in there for a
9:07
little est zing, but eggs, and then all of a sudden this suddenly the mayonnaise
9:11
just became, wasn't just a sauce, it was an ingredient that defined entire recipes.
9:17
I
9:17
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, and it was kind of the democratization.
9:20
Of mayonnaise.
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And when it became just what all of us have in our refrigerator, I guess it
9:26
lost a little bit of that esteem that it
9:29
held.
9:30
Um, yeah, it kind of became, if everybody has it, But
9:34
I think we're changing that.
9:34
We'll talk about that a little bit later.
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cause there's starting to be a real wars over mayo, but, , making it from scratch
9:41
and even under this earlier, takes a lot of patience and careful whisking.
9:45
I don't have the patience.
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Nancy May: Well, that's, if you're doing it by hand,
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Sylvia Lovely: Oh, you've got a blender
9:50
Nancy May: I have the
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Sylvia Lovely: are so smart.
9:53
You are so
9:54
smart.
9:55
But you had to add the oil slowly.
9:57
I don't know if you do.
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If it's a blender sometimes.
9:59
Yeah.
9:59
Literally drop by drop or the mister would break and separate, and not
10:03
everybody wanted to spend that kind of time before preparing dinner.
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That challenge opened the door for one of the most important developments
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in the story of Mayo, the jar.
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Nancy May: Well, I have to say there is something , again, when you're making
10:17
mayonnaise from scratch, putting it in the kewpiesinart or whatever fast
10:21
blender you have, I was always told it's a very thin little ribbon of oil.
10:26
And I'm gonna give you a tip since you haven't made mayonnaise, and I
10:29
think you should actually try, it'll take you maybe five to eight minutes
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at most to make your own homemade mayonnaise, you little ribbon of oil.
10:37
But if you change the oil from like olive oil to corn oil, or even
10:43
avocado oil, the flavor of your mayonnaise changes dramatically.
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Sylvia Lovely: Hmm.
10:47
Nancy May: careful.
10:48
Sylvia Lovely: All right.
10:49
Well, I'll put that on my to-do list of life.
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Nancy May: But the jar, the rise of the mayonnaise jar, uh, you can
10:55
use the mayonnaise jar for just about anything after the fact,
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Sylvia Lovely: Sure.
10:58
Yeah.
10:59
Yeah.
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Nancy May: but one of the earliest and most successful commercial
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mayonnaise brands came from a New York deli owner named Richard Hellman.
11:07
Surprise, I love Hellman's Mayonnaise.
11:09
yes.
11:10
Anyway, my
11:11
Hellman's mayonnaise sandwiches in the early 19 hundreds, he
11:14
began selling jars of his wife's homemade mayonnaise in his store.
11:18
Delis have the best stuff.
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I gotta tell you, I've got deli stories up the yin yang.
11:23
But anyway, customers loved it so much that he started packaging it with a
11:27
little blue ribbon tied around the jar.
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That's kind of ladi off for a, a deli of those days.
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And the ribbon eventually, however, became part of the label
11:35
that we now know today as the blue on the Hellman's mayonnaise jar.
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Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
11:41
So, you know, interestingly enough, now I know some of the newest, there are
11:46
squeeze bottles now of mayo and all of
11:48
that stuff.
11:49
Well it's interesting 'cause you never see, now Dijon mustard is in a jar.
11:55
Uh, it's just kind of interesting, isn't it?
11:56
But to, I love the name Otto Helman from Germany.
12:00
Of course he was from Germany
12:02
Nancy May: Well, what about Richard?
12:03
I thought it was Richard Hellman.
12:04
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, Otto.
12:05
I think Otto was in there.
12:06
Oh, Richard versus Otto.
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Nancy May: That was my dog, Otto,
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Sylvia Lovely: I loved Otto because it was so German.
12:15
Okay.
12:15
All right.
12:16
Note to self, Richard.
12:17
He may have Americanized his name, but let's go on.
12:20
once Mayo became available in jars, , it quickly spread into American kitchens.
12:25
Everybody could make potato salad or chicken salad
12:27
without that delicate process.
12:28
I'd rather focus on that.
12:29
and it firmly established itself as a refrigerator staple along
12:33
with its brothers and its sisters.
12:35
and as the jars multiplied, so did the brands competing for loyalty.
12:40
just like so many turns to home preparation for the reasons of knowing.
12:44
Where your ingredients are and the stick of your hands taking part in creation,
12:49
people are preparing their mayo.
12:50
And I, I say that's great, Nancy.
12:52
I, I give you all the credit in the world.
12:55
no matter the trouble that we're doing everything else, aren't we?
12:58
We make our own beer.
12:59
We firm at our food, we can and freeze for the winter, our produce and our veggies.
13:04
So it's a natural thing that people would start making our.
13:06
Condiments as well.
13:08
And I know a lot of people are making their own vinegarette and their
13:11
own dressings, solid dressings.
13:12
And a lot of people will say, make your own.
13:15
It's not that hard and you don't, and you don't get all the, uh, other stuff that,
13:20
you know goes into it for preservatives
13:22
Nancy May: Not all of us have a restaurant to go to, to have dinner and have our
13:25
own personal chef make a meal for us.
13:27
But, so I, there's a little, little thing that I wanna share about mayonnaise.
13:31
I'll take a step back on that.
13:32
It's kind of interesting to taste mayonnaise from different
13:36
parts of the country and even different parts of the world.
13:38
So a number of years ago.
13:40
Bob and I had been in Paris and we had to try a McDonald's.
13:45
Oh, I didn't have to try the McDonald's, but Bob had to try the McDonald's
13:48
and so we ordered the french fries there was no ketchup, but they had
13:53
the little mayonnaise package, French mayonnaise packages from McDonald's.
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Sylvia Lovely: Cute.
13:59
Nancy May: will not eat french fries now without mayonnaise.
14:01
Sylvia Lovely: Ah,
14:02
Nancy May: And the McDonald's mayonnaise was really good.
14:04
There was some sort of other herb in it that wasn't,
14:07
Sylvia Lovely: huh.
14:08
Nancy May: that wasn't just plain mayonnaise, it was a
14:10
little green something in it.
14:11
So it was, but I guess it was French, so it was Herb Darling as opposed to Herb.
14:17
Sylvia Lovely: yeah,
14:17
yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:18
Well, truffle fi fries have some version, uh, sometimes of mayo in it.
14:23
I know that.
14:24
so, you know, yeah.
14:25
It's, it's used in a lot of ways
14:27
and so it's good.
14:28
Yeah.
14:29
Okay.
14:29
Nancy May: But here's another surprise.
14:30
Along with the spread of home kitchens mayonnaise is still kind of the
14:34
silent ingredient that we use in so many different things that we said.
14:38
However, earlier.
14:39
Mayo was first used in elegant kitchens, like the French cooking, and it's instant
14:45
to be rumored and to be loved as bechamel.
14:49
Sylvia Lovely: Ooh.
14:50
Nancy May: but I thought bechamel was something else.
14:52
I thought it was a whole different thing.
14:54
I guess you're gonna have to educate me on that because you were the
14:57
restaurateur, but maybe, maybe not.
15:00
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
15:01
Nancy May: Since I'm the maker of the mayonnaise.
15:04
But there is some controversy as so whether it brings a more creaminess,
15:08
creaminess to an aioli, or a remoulade, or a tartar sauce, tartar sauce,
15:13
you know what tartar sauce is.
15:14
Sylvia Lovely: Well, I like it.
15:15
What is it?
15:16
Nancy May: It's nothing more than mayonnaise and relish.
15:19
I think that's pretty much it, right?
15:21
Sylvia Lovely: and I, a lot of times, uh, I'll use just, mayo for things.
15:25
I would like fish.
15:26
I'll just spread a little mayo on my fish as opposed to worrying about
15:29
the tartar part of it, I guess.
15:31
Nancy May: And fancy names like aioli, uh, are a or
15:35
ramalad.
15:36
I mean, you're just putting, I shouldn't say garbage.
15:39
I say you put crap in, crap in mayonnaise.
15:42
I'll be very refined about this.
15:44
But even still, it takes all those basic ingredients, the vinegar, the lemon juice.
15:49
Lemon juice really is surprising in what they put in.
15:51
I never even thought that lemon juice was in mayonnaise till I started to make it.
15:55
And not to mention all the other
15:57
creamy salt blue cheese can go into it.
15:59
Green goddess dressings, everybody's gotta get into the act even some of the fancy
16:04
chefs who are now doing their own thing.
16:06
Oh, I think some of the chefs now were branding their own.
16:08
Restaurant mayonnaise as to the style and flavor
16:12
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
16:13
Yeah, sure.
16:14
I'm giving it its own kinda brand, you
16:16
know?
16:17
so yeah.
16:18
Yeah.
16:18
And then we have brand rivalries.
16:20
Now
16:20
my chef.
16:21
oh.
16:22
He is in love with Duke's mayonnaise to the point where
16:27
he has a Duke's jar tattoo.
16:30
Nancy May: No way.
16:31
Really.
16:32
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, he showed it off to me the other day.
16:35
Nancy May: Oh, that's ATM I. Too much information
16:38
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, he is a warrior for the dudes.
16:41
Nancy May: voyeur for Dukes.
16:42
I'll have to tell a friend of mine who knows the Dukes folks.
16:46
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
16:46
He is a warrior.
16:48
Yeah.
16:48
So tell me about Dukes.
16:49
Nancy May: the Duke story began in 1917 with a woman named.
16:53
Eugenia, . Eugenia Duke in Greenville, South Carolina, where during World
16:58
War I, she began selling homemade sandwiches to soldiers stationed nearby.
17:03
I love that story.
17:04
You know, it's like a mom packaging sandwich for the kids,
17:08
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, but she was an entrepreneur.
17:10
she charged for it too.
17:11
Nancy May: Right, but make sure they had a taste of home before they went anywhere.
17:14
Anyway, the sandwiches became so popular that people began asking about the
17:19
mayonnaise that she used, that made it so delicious and homey, and she was making
17:24
then and selling the mayonnaise herself.
17:26
Sylvia Lovely: And Duke's developed a distinctive flavor
17:29
that people talk about and it's why there's such an adherence to it.
17:32
slightly higher proportion of egg yolks than many other brands, which gives an.
17:36
A very rich texture.
17:38
It also contains knowhow to sugar.
17:40
Yay.
17:41
Something that Duke's fans mentioned immediately when describing why they
17:44
prefer it, and the result is a tangy rich flavor that many people think
17:49
works really well in southern recipes
17:53
Nancy May: Well, you know, I never heard of Dukes until we came down south
17:56
Sylvia Lovely: yeah, it's a southern thing
17:57
Nancy May: when I saw it,
17:58
on the shelf and it was on sale, I said, we'll have to
18:00
try Dukes instead of Hellman's.
18:02
And I am now a Dukes fan.
18:05
like you said, predominantly because it doesn't have any sugar,
18:07
I was surprised at really how much sugar was in all the other brands.
18:11
So we're eliminating sugar, and I don't put it in when I make
18:14
it myself, but it's really good.
18:16
So let's stop for a second and take a quick break because there are so
18:21
many other brands that are good and healthy and some favorites along the
18:25
way that you might be surprised about.
18:27
So we'll be right back.
18:46
So Sylvia, we're back to mayonnaise.
18:48
Just slathered on, oh my God.
18:50
I could probably eat it by the spoonful
18:52
Sylvia Lovely: Can I tell you just a quick, review just so people can know
18:56
this, just a little bit more about the difference between Dukes and Hillman's.
19:00
Nancy May: Please, please.
19:01
Sylvia Lovely: Dukes has more fat, so it's thicker.
19:04
It's richer, and it's made to.
19:06
Eat with fried foods, like I guess a fried fish sandwich would have.
19:11
you mentioned McDonald's I think when we were talking earlier and I can
19:15
imagine that there's a lot of it of it.
19:17
Maybe it's tartar sauce on their fish sandwich, but it's really good
19:20
and they use vinegar and it's tan.
19:22
For that reason.
19:23
And then Hellman's is milder and it's lower in fat and uses distilled
19:30
vinegar that makes a difference in lemon and it tastes lighter.
19:35
So it's good in baking more so than Dukes, cause I guess the high fat content.
19:40
I don't know.
19:41
Nancy May: and I have a little trick for mayonnaise.
19:42
Something that most people don't realize that the commercial burger
19:47
places, you know, the fast food places will use, most of them have
19:51
like the special sauce or whatever it is that they'll put on the bun.
19:54
And the reason why they put it on the bun before you get to the burger where
19:58
the burger doesn't touch the bun.
20:00
Is because all the juices don't soak into the bun.
20:03
It creates kind of like a barrier so the bread doesn't get soggy.
20:06
Sylvia Lovely: that's interesting.
20:07
Nancy May: A little science, mad science with mayonnaise again.
20:11
Sylvia Lovely: Hmm., I like a burger if I'm eating one out
20:14
where you get your mayo on it.
20:16
And I try to be careful not to use too much mayo, but I can't resist
20:20
when I go get a five guy's hamburger.
20:22
I gotta have
20:22
mayo.
20:23
Nancy May: God.
20:23
Those will
20:23
Sylvia Lovely: And, and yeah, a week.
20:26
And I like it when you envelop it completely with the foil and by
20:31
the time they get it to you, it's been in the foil for a few minutes
20:35
and that just makes all the flavors
20:37
permeate throughout the whole sandwich.
20:40
And I don't normally eat a whole hamburger ever, but if I go to
20:45
five guys, I eat the whole thing.
20:47
Even though it's like, I can't believe I ate the whole thing.
20:49
I
20:49
Nancy May: Well, and, and this is slightly off topic, but I should say,
20:53
Bob investigated and researched the correct way to eat a burger on a bun.
20:59
Sylvia Lovely: How
20:59
Nancy May: so you put the mayonnaise on your bun and then you put the bun top
21:03
on top of the burger, and then you turn the sandwich or the burger upside down
21:08
so that again, the mayonnaise holds the juices and it doesn't get into the top
21:12
and it doesn't get all cookie over where the bottom of the bun will get gookie.
21:17
But you don't wanna do that.
21:18
So apparently you eat
21:20
the burger upside down.
21:21
With the mayonnaise, protecting all that delicious brioche buns that you
21:26
have.
21:26
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
21:27
You know, we have all these new kinds of mayo.
21:31
You might even say Mayo substitutes,
21:33
right?
21:34
I go to Whole Foods and there's a whole, whole area full and,
21:38
increasingly at the more mainstream grocery stores too organic.
21:42
There's vegan.
21:43
Vegan.
21:44
I guess vegan wouldn't have eggs, would it?
21:46
Would it is vegan eggs.
21:47
Nancy May: Well, I guess a pescatarian is a fish, eater only, but
21:52
Sylvia Lovely: I
21:52
think vegan is, you don't eat any dairy or eggs or any of that, I think
21:57
Nancy May: there's a hardcore vegan versus a soft core
22:00
Sylvia Lovely: But I know, but you run into 'em all the time.
22:04
But they plant-based for vegans, dips and they're spicy, Chipotle, all of
22:09
those things use mayo as a. Right.
22:15
And then have you ever been in a, a test, a great Mayo swap test?
22:19
Nancy May: I have not been a great, no, I have not gone there.
22:23
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, it might be kind of interesting sometime to do that.
22:26
and they say it's kind of like if you try to fool somebody with decaf
22:30
coffee versus coffee, real coffee, that they'll know immediately.
22:34
Although I've done that experiment before.
22:36
How cruel of me, right?
22:37
And the person didn't know.
22:39
Isn't that
22:39
mean?
22:40
Think about how mean that was.
22:42
Nancy May: I can't tell the difference.
22:43
Sorry.
22:44
Sylvia Lovely: Somebody asked for decaf and I gave them real coffee just
22:47
so I could see what their reaction
22:48
was.
22:49
Nancy May: yeah,
22:50
Sylvia Lovely: I'm a bad girl, but anyway, most people will say there is
22:54
an actual taste difference and I hadn't thought about it till I did this research.
22:58
I mean, it's kind of interesting,
22:59
Nancy May: Well, I can taste the difference in certain
23:01
mayonnaises for sure.
23:02
I was a Hellman snob and now I am pretty much close to 90.
23:07
5% Duke snob,
23:09
Sylvia Lovely: Ooh.
23:10
I love that.
23:10
I love
23:11
that we've converted you.
23:12
Nancy May: right.
23:13
Yes.
23:13
You have converted me.
23:14
I'm, becoming the Gator girl as I call myself down south.
23:17
'cause I've gone from Nutmeger to Gator girl in Florida.
23:21
Sylvia Lovely: I love that.
23:21
. Nancy May: So we are talking about taste testing and have you ever heard of Kewpie
23:27
Sylvia Lovely: No kewpie dolls.
23:29
I've heard of
23:29
Nancy May: Right.
23:30
The kewpie mayonaise is, this is a big thing down south.
23:32
I haven't seen it up north at all, and it, you've got a picture of the little kewpie
23:35
doll on it, and it's a squeeze bottle.
23:37
You can turn it upside down.
23:39
That apparently is one of the top.
23:42
Mayonnaises in the May.
23:44
I don't know if that's
23:44
the
23:45
correct word, main eye, right.
23:48
We'll have to ask Ms. Manners or or whoever for the correct pronunciations of
23:51
mayonnaise or mayonnaises or main eyes.
23:54
But eventually cooks have admitted their secrets and
23:56
they've switched brands over time.
23:58
Yep.
23:58
You switched
23:59
Sylvia Lovely: I
23:59
Nancy May: switched brands, yes.
24:01
Sylvia Lovely: Okay, I just came up with it.
24:03
Oh, Okay.
24:04
The next time you decide to change careers from being a famous podcaster
24:08
and you decide to go to chef school,
24:11
do you know what the first test they'll give you is?
24:13
Nancy May: How to make mayonnaise
24:14
Sylvia Lovely: No.
24:14
Your palate, are you a super taster or are you not?
24:20
And it makes a difference.
24:21
As a chef, you've got to be able to taste all these nuances of food, right?
24:25
Nancy May: I
24:25
am
24:26
gobble and gulp.
24:27
Sylvia Lovely: I don't think I would be one, but my former chef was a super
24:31
high taster, and you could tell when he would talk about food, he knew all
24:35
these notes and the nuances and all that.
24:37
It's just fascinating to me
24:39
Nancy May: You know, I think you can, you can learn to teach or
24:43
train your palate to do that.
24:44
I have a friend who was a, a trader on the floor, a financial trader.
24:49
And she quit her job to become, not sommelier, but what they call a
24:54
wine expert, which is way, level over the, we'll have to have her on
24:58
as a guest or something sometime.
24:59
And she enjoyed wine, but she actually trained her palate to taste the
25:05
subtleties in very tiny little subtleties.
25:08
And we had wine together one night before.
25:11
I moved and she moved out to California.
25:13
And she orders a, a glass of wine that I think was like a hundred dollars
25:18
for a glass of wine, and I thought that better be a really good glass.
25:21
She could tell that the wine had been the day before.
25:25
Sylvia Lovely: Wow.
25:26
Nancy May: I was impressed.
25:28
Yes.
25:28
Sylvia Lovely: impressive.
25:29
I remember the show Frazier.
25:31
he and his brother were a wine taster extraordinaire.
25:34
You know, it was interesting.
25:36
hey, but this next thing is gonna be something you would
25:38
eat a southern tomato sandwich.
25:41
Nancy May: I would eat a southern tomato sandwich.
25:42
Yep.
25:43
I would do with, mayonnaise of course.
25:45
Sylvia Lovely: Mm,
25:46
Nancy May: And maybe I think you can we make aioli and mayonnaise?
25:49
Sandwiches?
25:50
I don't know.
25:50
We think we should try it with a little wine in
25:53
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
25:53
Nancy May: Wine sandwiches.
25:54
Right.
25:55
Sylvia Lovely: But
25:55
the key is the tomato.
25:57
when garden tomatoes arrive in July and August, I don't know about Florida,
26:00
you must have 'em all year round, but
26:02
Nancy May: We have to big tomato patches down by south, south of Tampa.
26:06
Big area.
26:07
Yep.
26:07
Sylvia Lovely: But here, the very best tomatoes are July and August when
26:11
they're just falling off the vine.
26:13
And you can, you can, oh you, they're just good.
26:16
I don't know what they are, but you could like take one and eat it like an apple.
26:20
I mean, that's how good it is.
26:21
And tomato pie is one of the very best things, and it uses some mayo too.
26:26
Tomato pies are delicious.
26:28
Nancy May: Does it use mayonnaise, tomato
26:30
pie?
26:30
Sylvia Lovely: sure.
26:31
I'd have to
26:31
Nancy May: I learned what a tomato pie was when it came down here.
26:34
They are delicious.
26:36
It's something that us northerners really don't know anything
26:39
about tomato pies, but they are
26:41
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, they're really,
26:42
good.
26:42
And I think if you think about it, just because the sandwich is so popular,
26:46
there's some kind of ingredients in the mayo that marries the richness of
26:51
that tomato, and they go together like.
26:55
whatever
26:55
and
26:55
whatever.
26:56
Yeah.
26:57
P, B and J, I mean,, with another interloper
27:00
Nancy May: I think you have to be careful on the type of mayonnaise
27:02
that you use because have you ever put some mayonnaise on tomato
27:07
and the mayonnaise just kind of slides off?
27:09
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
27:10
Nancy May: So I think it's maybe either the timing of the to tomato that you buy
27:13
it and you cut it and you slice it versus maybe the type of mayonnaise that you use.
27:18
But I would agree.
27:19
And, uh, cucumber mayonnaise and cucumber sandwiches, little
27:22
tea sandwiches, darling, for
27:24
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, I forget that the Derby sandwich, um, Ben Betine,
27:28
uh, ah, can't come up with it or served at Derby parties up here.
27:32
Um.
27:33
Little, you know, cucumbers and mayo.
27:37
and they're just real simple.
27:39
Now, I don't even think they have that in a little tiny little white bread.
27:42
This is on white bread, you know.
27:44
but uh, Dukes fans insist that the tangy flavor balances
27:48
the sweetness of the tomato.
27:50
So they vote for Dukes, of course.
27:53
Nancy May: I could see that.
27:54
it's so subtle.
27:55
I wouldn't say.
27:56
I'm, so this is the deuce debate.
27:57
I'm not sure it's tangy versus sweet, but I don't know exactly.
28:01
My palate needs to be refined and trained.
28:03
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
28:05
Well.
28:06
Work on that before you go to chef school.
28:08
Okay.
28:08
Um,
28:09
Nancy May: Mm-hmm.
28:09
Sylvia Lovely: anyway, I think like many food traditions though, everything tastes
28:12
better at a certain time of the year.
28:14
And tomato sandwich in the summertime, you're sitting there with a, iced
28:19
tea
28:20
Nancy May: sandwiches.
28:20
Oh my god.
28:21
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, bologna sandwich
28:22
on white bread.
28:23
Nothing any better.
28:26
carries that taste of the time.
28:28
It's being prepared and eaten.
28:31
I mean, it's just wonderful.
28:32
Wonderful.
28:33
Nancy May: but tomato, it's a potato salad, represents summer, and
28:36
then of course you have mayonnaise and oh, and macaroni salad.
28:40
Macaroni, church picnics, family reunions, neighborhood potlucks, mayonnaise.
28:45
You can't, you have to buy mayonnaise by like the, you have
28:48
to go to Costco to buy mayonnaise.
28:49
That's it for these things.
28:51
When the summertime comes,
28:53
Costco or Sam's Club or someplace big where you get the big, I don't know what
28:57
they call 'em, 10 Callen jars by then, but yeah, certain kind of bowls of food.
29:03
Just have to start with mayonnaise before you put anything else in it.
29:06
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, I guess you gotta be more careful too with picnics.
29:10
I know a lot of people won't eat.
29:11
Very much of that.
29:12
If it's out in a picnic style,
29:14
Nancy May: You know, I think they put so much stabilizer in it.
29:16
I haven't died from a or gotten sick on a bad mayonnaise sandwich yet, so
29:22
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
29:22
Nancy May: I'm the iron queen.
29:24
Sylvia Lovely: Well I, I just talked to someone once who had a bad experience,
29:27
I guess, where a buffet was left out for too long and they got sick.
29:31
Whether it was that or whether it was just, you know,
29:33
Nancy May: I've had that without mayonnaise.
29:35
I think it's a fish that you have to worry about.
29:37
But anyway, you, so you can add celery and other chopped pickles.
29:40
We talked about that.
29:42
Oh, was it?
29:43
Uh, pineapple or grapes and mustard.
29:47
And if you wanna get, if you wanna get really fancy, you can add wasabi.
29:50
That's
29:51
really good.
29:52
Sylvia Lovely: spicy, isn't it?
29:53
I don't know.
29:53
Nancy May: Not when you have mayonnaise in it.
29:55
Sort of.
29:56
yeah.
29:56
It calms it down, but almost any version relies on mayonnaise.
30:01
It doesn't matter what it is.
30:02
Right.
30:02
Any, well, I'll say German potato salad doesn't rely on mayonnaise.
30:05
I don't think so.
30:06
I think we're fair there.
30:07
Sylvia Lovely: Anyway, that's mayonnaise.
30:09
Nancy May: So when you think about mayonnaise, well, I think we should
30:12
become the mayonnaise, the wain eighth.
30:13
Do I say mayonnaise three times fast with your tongue full
30:16
anyway, but we should become the mayonnaise whisper.
30:20
Or maybe you can do that with your mouthful of mayonnaise and Margaret's
30:25
potato salad one day or another.
30:27
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
30:28
Meredith's into that sort of stuff, so we'll ask her
30:31
Nancy May: Right.
30:32
Meredith actually sent, I have to say in her thank you note because she
30:35
sent me a recipe of chicken salad, her mom's chicken salad, which was
30:40
very sweet, all handwritten note.
30:41
so I can put it in my book, in somebody else's handwriting,
30:44
which I thought was just
30:45
Sylvia Lovely: Hmm.
30:46
Yeah.
30:47
Community
30:47
Nancy May: community and sharing.
30:50
Yep.
30:51
So mayonnaise, it may not be as simple as you think.
30:54
A little bit more complex, and when you understand the story behind that
30:58
jar, the blue jar or the yellow lid, or maybe the cupid do that's on your
31:03
mayonnaise jars, think twice about the story behind it and really how fancy it
31:09
started out in European kitchens, darling.
31:12
And yes, maybe it's, it's something that Julia had in her cookbook,
31:15
you know, art of French Cooking.
31:17
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
31:18
there you go.
31:19
I'm gonna have to try Dukes.
31:20
Nancy May: You are.
31:21
So on that note, next time you open a jar of mayonnaise, please think
31:25
of family tree, food and stories and share your story with us.
31:28
Maybe a recipe of how you use your mayonnaise or don't use your mayonnaise.
31:33
Or maybe, make your own with a little dash of something delicious like wine.
31:38
Sylvia Lovely: Oh wow.
31:38
Nancy May: Because every meal has a story and every story has a feast.
31:41
Please share and like the show with your friends and family and
31:44
come on forward with your new
31:46
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
31:46
Nancy May: stories or different mayonnaise stories because
31:48
we'd like to hear yours too.
31:50
Sylvia Lovely: And everything goes better with wine.
31:52
There you go.
31:53
Nancy May: But I'll have a mayonnaise sandwich with a bottle of wine.
31:57
We're done.
31:59
Sylvia Lovely: Ing,
32:01
Nancy May: I'll be seeing double in the mayonnaise jars
32:03
on that note, please take care.
32:05
We'll see you soon and we'll hear you soon.
32:07
Bye-bye.