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Thinking Holistically About Hotel Digital Marketing | with Jason Pirock · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #74: Thinking Holistically About Hotel Digital Marketing | with Jason Pirock === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to GAIN Momentum Podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. I'm joined today by my cohost, Michael Goldrich. Our special guest today is Jason Pirock, Head of Marketing for Springboard Hospitality and advisor for Wonderland. Jason, how are you doing? Jason Pirock: Doing well, how are you? Adam Mogelonsky: Fantastic. It's a Friday in mid-April here in Toronto and still snowing outside. Jason Pirock: Oh, no, we have cold weather, but sunshine in Chicago. Adam Mogelonsky: Oh, well, yeah. Toronto, I'd say is slightly warmer than Chicago. We don't get those, those nice Midwest gusts. Uh, but the, the reason for bringing you on today is that you have a very unique job and incredible insights for hotel marketing. So I'm wondering, you have two different roles here. We're gonna start with Springboard Hospitality. Tell us what the day in the life of Jason looks like as head of marketing for Springboard? Michael J. Goldrich: Actually, even before he does that, where does the name Springboard even come from? Jason Pirock: That's a really good question. Um, and that certainly, uh, predates my, uh, my time. It was, uh, we rebrand, we were, um, at one point OLS hotels, um, and really, uh, decided to, to rebrand, um, about. Four years ago. And a lot of it honestly is I don't have as much of the history and context truly around where the name, um, became, but a lot of it is around sort of that launchpad or springboard to your performance as, uh, as a hospitality, um, or a hotel company. Michael J. Goldrich: All right. Sorry to interrupt. I was a burning question. Burning. Adam Mogelonsky: Can springboard off that question into, uh, what, what your role is for marketing. Jason Pirock: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my, uh, so my role as head of marketing and, and, uh, brand, you could tack that on too. I literally see everything under, oversee everything under the sun when it comes to, um, to marketing. My role is, um, is maybe a little bit different in the sense. That I oversee Marketing of Springboard as the B2B brand and sort of how we show up in the world, especially from like a business development ownership, um, perspective, but then also focusing on the, uh, portfolio of hotels that we have. And right now we're, uh, at about 51 and 14 states. Michael J. Goldrich: Are they boutique? Are they branded? Are you guys aligned with certain flags? Jason Pirock: Yeah. So, uh, springboard Hospitality owns, operates and develops, uh, primarily independent, uh, hotels, restaurants, and bars, and mostly destination type of, uh, of locations. Um, so we're about 85% independent boutique style, um, and a, a few flags that we, that we oversee. Adam Mogelonsky: So if you're wearing so many hats, that's a lot of juggling. And I'm wondering what sort of technology do you use to help you do your job and uh, keep your hair? Jason Pirock: Well, I have an incredible team, uh, behind me, right. It, I can't do it all myself. So I, I would credit, um, hiring well in, in developing a high performing team that allows me to kind of, I. Juggle all of those of those hats and kind of think through the larger strategy. But, you know, technology is, it varies across the board. I think, you know, we've invested in technology in places like our websites in terms of bringing them in house and making sure that they're, you know, very modern and high performing, um, in our CRM, uh, to make sure that we're capturing that. That data and, um, you know, really going after that direct booking strategy. Um, so those are are two ways, but technology is a big part of marketing as both of, you know, and a a and operations plays such a huge, um, part, uh, in the larger marketing strategy. And so, you know, our, our technology is a, is a big part for us. Adam Mogelonsky: So let's talk about this. The. Direct booking strategy because that is the holy grail for all hotels. Nobody likes paying OTA commissions, and yet it's, it's deemed as a necessary evil in order to get distribution. And along this lines, uh, I've, I've heard you say in past that you divide it up into these phases of the guest journey. How you can really drive, uh, data off that, but also increase engagement to get those direct bookings and then, and then tie that into loyalty and, and return visits. Could you break that down for us? Jason Pirock: Yeah, absolutely. So I like to think of, you know, many people can look at the, the customer journey in, in a lot of different ways or different steps. Um, and certainly it, it doesn't, I don't necessarily cover them all, but I particularly like to look at four buckets, and that's inspiration. Research, planning and booking. Um, and so at all of those different steps, you know, the, the guest is at a different, um, point in their purchasing decision, right? And so ultimately what we're trying to do is, um. As you know, as marketing does get to the right person at the right place, at the right time. And so a lot of that does start with our content. And it's not just about visual content, it's about copy as well, and thinking about what that, that messaging is at the right time. But what we really have tried to shift into, and it's something that we're, I would say, um. Focusing on even more in 2025 is really starting to think about our content more holistically. I think often as marketers we're thinking about it, at a bit of a siloed approach and thinking, uh, about it, uh, by channel. Um, rather than looking at it as, um, a larger. Campaign or a larger, um, story that's going on. So I think by thinking about how it shows up across all of those channels, um, and, and crafting your story in that way helps you to increase that engagement because number one, you're consistent in what you're saying and, and how you're saying it, right? And how you're, you're visually putting it out there. Um, but you're also. Sort of forcing yourself into thinking about, okay, if I am, you know, putting something on social, maybe that imagery looks a little bit different than if I am looking, uh, at, you know, maybe display or something even into email. It's making sure that it's relevant to. That point in their journey. Um, so that's, that's one way that we are really focused on, um, you know, driving direct bookings is really focusing on the content, investing in that content, um, and making sure that it's relevant to the guests at the right time so that they don't have a lot of questions. They're already inspired. They're, they're, they know, um, what's out there and they're ready to book with us. Michael J. Goldrich: So how, how do you calculate ROI? Because that's one of the big challenges because like you have the different funnels and you have different vendors each taking, or, or if you have different vendors like each. Funnel, like say social will, if you're doing last click, it's not gonna show any real attribution. So then how do you show the value of social versus like, uh, your prospecting campaigns? Again, they're not gonna show a lot of, um, last, if you're doing last click, I'm not sure what kind of attribution you're doing, but I was talking to a person the other day and they actually said they, how they calculate ROI is they look at all the spent. They do on marketing. So they don't do it by funnel, by channel or whatever. They said, here's all the money we spent, here's how much revenue was generated. That's our ROI. And that way you don't get into like double counting, like how do you guys do it? Jason Pirock: Yeah, a thousand percent. I mean, we're, we're shifting in that direction. Honestly. Uh, you know, it, it's been a tough conversation because there's so much focus on. Roas, right? Return on ad spend. Everybody wants to see, you know, what's that, what's that Ro as? And I think that, you know, we've been trained as marketers and, and certainly, um, hoteliers to, to focus in on that. The problem with that is, is you, you sort of alluded to it, is that there's so many other. Points of spend that are required in order to get that return. And there's so many factors that fall into what that return is. For example, um, as you alluded to, if you're spending in prospecting, right, you're spending in top of funnel, you're not necessarily. Um, going to see return on that. Can you? Sure. There's times where that does generate revenue, but in order to have bottom of the funnel, you have to have top of the funnel. And so it's important that you're investing in that full funnel strategy so that you can get, um, the revenue at the end of the day. And the other thing that we don't talk enough about is how a DR impacts your return. Right, because ultimately I could be doing my job as a marketer, driving bookings, um, driving room nights, getting people into the booking engine. But if year over year my a DR is down, that doesn't mean in my, that means that ultimately my revenue is down. That doesn't mean that marketing isn't doing their job. That doesn't mean that the marketing isn't working. It's that we have to look at that at this more holistically and we can't be so focused on, um, these. Old dated metrics that are very tied to specific parts of the conversion journey or, or the, or the booking. Um, the booking path, right? That guest journey. And so that's exactly what we're doing. Michael is stor starting to shift the narrative and, and really start talking about, um. Expenses as a whole and re and, and revenue as a whole. Um, and really looking at ROI, where it gets a little bit challenging, I will say, um, is that there are things out there that are hard costs. Um, you know, or just costs to do business, like a website, right? Um, you need that website in order to drive, you know, a chunk of your distribution revenue. Um. There are things like CRM that are email as a driver, but CRM as as data storage, right? As, as you know, keeping the information of your guests. So how do you split some of those costs, you know, apart because one is acquisition or driver, the other is cost of doing business. And so that's where I think it gets a little bit, um, murky, but. I think if you're looking at it in a clean way, exactly how you set it is a, is a smart way to do it. And then I think it's just about consistency and tracking how that's changing month over month, year over year, et cetera. Michael J. Goldrich: I would 'cause, you know, 'cause our budgets are all line items, so you always have to show justification for each line item. 'cause that's sort of how the business has always been constructed. But I wanna go back to, uh, the previous thing where you're talking about content because you have this holistic content strategy. But, you know, since I'm like, I, I dabble in this AI stuff, so now these large language models, they, you know, you don't get to control. All what they say now, kind of about your hotels or about, so what are you doing right now to kind of kind of get ahead and control the narrative? If I'm asking about Springboard, if I'm asking about one of your hotels, you don't know where it's gonna pull from, but it might be pulling from your sites, but it might be pulling from travel and leisure. It might be pulling from who knows where. So how are you approaching that whole thing? Jason Pirock: A thousand percent. And look, we're, we're never, no brand is ever gonna control every single thing that's out there. Right. And I think that with ai, that's gonna be even more apparent. Where we're really putting the focus is, um, within our websites and thinking about how we can control some of that, because that's, I'd imagine, right, or, or a hunch is that that's where a lot of it will be pulled from. So things like, you know, FAQ pages. Things like, you know, copying content, making sure that it's concise, making sure that there's bullets. Thinking about our alt tags and our schema markup, those are all things that we know are not only going to help us show up properly in the world, right as our brand comes to life, but it's also fueling a lot of these. You know, search agents that are out there so that when you know, the requests for, you know, going into these large language models are around, you know, where should I go in Los Angeles? They're thinking of the Chamberlain Hotel in West Hollywood. Right? So that's, that's where we're Michael J. Goldrich: That's what I think of. Jason Pirock: Great. I love that. Um, but that's where we're, I mean, definitely we're in, you know, the earlier stages of that, but it is, it is a, a topic on our mind, and that's sort of the, the first way that we're starting to think about it. I think, you know, from your point around OTAs, I. Um, I think it goes back to having a consistent content strategy and making sure that, you know, collectively you are working together. We talk a lot about, you know, this, um, earlier this year we shifted more into, um, you know, a commercial strategy model. Uh, we just found that a lot of. Know what we were doing. While we've got a great team and everyone is super talented and really smart, we still saw these silos happening, right? And um, we wanted to shift into commercials so that we started to have a. You know, kind of force some of these conversations to happen together and evaluate performance together versus being so stuck on, well, revenue's gonna report out on this and sales is gonna report on that, and marketing's gonna report out on that. And by the way, they're talking about production, they're not talking about consumption. So we shifted that, right? We're talking less about production, more about consumption, but what. My point in all of this is, is that we've gotta come together and think about our content strategy and think about our brand not only in our respective disciplines, but as a total property. And that means thinking about them across all distribution channels, including OTAs, right? So whatever we're saying over here, um, with our direct strategy, we need to be mimicking that. OA strategy, our content, our visuals, the messaging, the offers that should all look the same Adam Mogelonsky: Right. So it isn't a matter of just search engine optimization, it's it's content optimization across, uh, paid or just the website and. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I just wanna tease out this point a little bit more, is this whole idea of looking at things holistically and not just roas, is you're talking about a content strategy and you mentioned certain things you can do to spruce up a website, the FAQ bullet points, having a markup schema, and you could have even, you could throw in there a well curated blog in there, which can also drive SEO. All that is still is a cost item because you have to have somebody doing that and then that has to be justified insofar as revenue uplift. And how would you justify that as a marketer who know who can see that through line from an organic perspective, as well as now for helping generative search through till the actual revenue? How would you pitch that to the rest of the commercial team? Jason Pirock: I mean, I think that, I think again, it goes back to, you know, we have to. We can't invest in just certain areas, right? We have to invest in the, the whole picture because it's one larger ecosystem, right? Everything depends on one another. Just as you know, revenue and marketing depend on one another. So does, you know, content versus search versus, you know, paid media, whatever it may be, right? They all work together. And so what I would ultimately say is if, if the goal is to. Increase our direct contribution, then we have got to invest in order to, you know, drive up our owned channels, right? Our own traffic, whether that be direct or organic, so that we're ultimately reducing our reliance on paid media. Paid media should be supplemental. If you're doing it right, you shouldn't have to spend a ton of money and. Your paid media program because you've driven up your referral, you've driven up your direct from brand awareness, you've driven up organic from your SEO strategy, and so ultimately you're starting to have, you know, less reliance on that paid media. So I think that's the way that I would talk about it. And not to mention if we are driving all of those things up and we're increasing our direct contribution, we are saving the bottom line or helping the bottom line because we have less OTA commissions. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Michael J. Goldrich: So, so you made me, so there's a battle when I was on the marketing side for a hotel. So it was always, do you buy your names? You know, do you buy your brand name? 'cause those have the biggest ROI. But you know, and to what you're saying, if someone knows your hotel, they're gonna Google it and so they don't, you don't need to buy it. However, the OTAs are buying it, so, and everyone knows and a lot, well, I shouldn't say one knows. Typically what people do is after they have figured out the hotel they want, they go and talk to their partner, whoever, and they say, okay, they talk about whichever hotel they're gonna go, then they come back to the site, they put in Google and they click the top click. That's typically like most people's behavior if, um, if they're not part of a loyalty program, and that top link is usually a paid search. So what is your approach on buying your names? Like do you, do you subscribe to that, that the defense, it's like defense. Jason Pirock: we do, honestly, and it's just, it is for a lot for that reason. I think there's a little bit, you know, part of it for us is a little bit of a billboard effect. Part of it for us is, you know, obviously the, you know, combating the OTAs because they are ultimately going to buy that. And then again, I think, you know, depending on, for us, we really look at like the maturation of. The property itself and the brand because in some cases we have a much stronger brand, and so maybe the spend doesn't need to be quite as high. Right. Um, we can sort of back off and we know that we'll still own that and we'll still, you know, get that, um, you know, ranking replacement or whatever it may be. Um, but in other cases we have to fuel that a lot more because. You know, there is a higher OTA contribution or maybe they are newer, um, you know, newer to the game or just haven't had, you know, enough of a marketing amplification in the past. Adam Mogelonsky: What about any hot tips for meta search and, uh, appearing in the top of the hotel block? Jason Pirock: I think me surge parody, I mean, I think that's the, that's the number one thing that we really tout as an organization. And you know, my head of revenue and I constantly are talking about, you know, if parody can really, um, I. Have a huge impact on our larger direct booking strategy. At the end of the day, people are looking at pricing as the number one reason for, for choosing. And in many cases, I wouldn't say all cases, but in a lot of cases, price wins, right? And so if we're not focused on parody, then I can spend all the money in the world on marketing, and it falls on deaf ears because. That price wins. So I would say that should be the number one focus when it comes to, um, to meta is to make sure that you are in lockstep with your revenue partner. And that parity is always a topic of conversation and is always being monitored, and there's plenty of tools out there that are doing it for you. Um, so just making sure that you keep an eye on it. But I think it's, I think the other piece too. The other piece of advice I would have on METAS search is like, metas search shouldn't be a set and forget. And I think that for a lot of people it is, it's a strategic tool. Um, and I think that there's power in keeping, um, I. Um, joined with your larger digital strategy versus through separate partners, but even more so. I think it's really important to make sure that you should be thinking about topping up and, you know, and, and baselining, right? You should be thinking about how can you use it. Um, differently throughout, you know, the week, maybe if you're driving, trying to drive midweek business, um, or you're trying to, you know, maybe you don't, you have a lot of occupancy on the weekends, like how can you play around with that a little bit more so it's not just this like flat line spend all the time. Michael J. Goldrich: I was, I was talking to this meta search guy and he says that you never wanna be, 'cause you know, when you're the hotel site, you get to say, you know, original, like hotel site, but you never wanna be the top because you're, those are people who are paying the most. So if you're the hotel, it actually makes the most sort of. Financial sense to kind of bid. So you're like the second or third one because you do get that moniker associated with that. Do you subscribe to that belief or do you think you should be at the top of meta? Jason Pirock: You know, that's a really interesting question. I haven't necessarily thought about that. I, I don't know. Um, I haven't seen data around like where. Um, where you should fall in for the, for the largest impact. I just know that the top three is where you want to be. So I guess, you know, following, um, that guidance, I would say number one probably doesn't matter as much, as long as you're above that fold and you're in the top, you know, three or so. Adam Mogelonsky: So I wanted to shift gears a little bit 'cause right now we're talking in terms of segmentation. We're talking mostly about leisure transient, and I wanna bring in the whole idea of a commercial strategies. We gotta bring in the sales and the group side of things. So I'm wondering, looking holistically at your job and this and the metrics you're looking at, what is the relationship between the efforts you put in for the leisure transient and how that can reflect on increased business for. On the group side. Jason Pirock: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I think data plays a part into that. So as we're thinking about, you know, our transient, um, strategy or leisure strategy, you know, learning more about those guests. To see if they're also, you know, a business traveler, if they're also a part of, you know, a corporation so that we can leverage that. Um, whether it's, you know, for, to drive midweek business, to drive extended stay, or potentially as leads, um, for, you know, larger group bookings in the future. So those are all things that we're, you know, typically, um, trying to think about. And then I think the other piece is. Making sure. I think that everyone just assumes email should be used for transient leisure. And I don't, I don't believe that's the case. I think that, you know, and I also hear like, well, what can marketing really do for, for sales, right? And marketing can actually do a lot for sales. Um, but. It's important. And in my head of sales and I, we talk constantly and are, are trying to look at ways that, you know, marketing can ultimately support the sales team. And there's things like, you know, paid media, there's things like, you know, um, email campaigns, right? To, to ultimately help drive some leads, whether you are, you know, sending offers out to your existing database or maybe you are purchasing a list or whatever it may be. Um, there's tons of ways that. That we can work together and, and ultimately help drive business. Are we gonna drive, you know, I always say marketing, marketing can drive leads. We can't necessarily drive revenue for sales, right? But we can certainly drive lots of leads and then it's in their hands to take it across the finish line. Michael J. Goldrich: One of the challenges when I was at Dolce Hotels, which was like a big, like a meeting shop, so you know, most of our revenue came through meeting planners, and so I would do these blasts at the meeting planners, and there's no way to. Capture the attribution. So I'd always like when you blast out to like leisure, you can actually see the bookings come through, but you, you lose that sort of like, you take 'em to a form and then you never know. But I saw this thing with Google and Google forms, like now they, you can put a code into a form and when they calculate it can go back out. And then you can actually track, you know what happened if they filled it out and then it goes into your CRM and then they see whether what actually happened or not. Do you guys do that? At that level of granularity, because to me that seems like the holy grail of doing the, that the, yeah. Jason Pirock: We don't necessarily do the, that, that technical, but we typically try to make sure that whenever those, like especially with an RFP form on a website, um, that there's either some sort of. Dropdown or there is some sort of code, or if it's coming through, you know, email, making sure that there's some sort of indicator that says that it came from this, so that they can then put that into, you know, triple seed or Delphi or whatever it may be, to be able to track it. Because you're right, the ultimate goal is that we not only drove that lead, but that lead converted into, you know, uh, a hundred thousand dollars of business. Right. I. Michael J. Goldrich: the huge ROI of it. And now it's so hard to do that. But you can say, look, 'cause sales always say, well, what's marketing doing for us? There's nothing here. And you can say that's. Jason Pirock: It's challenging because of the number of hands that it touches, right? Because you not only have to make sure that, you know, the, the technology is set up appropriately, but then that's delivered to the salesperson, and then that salesperson is properly, you know, putting that into whatever the, you know, their CRM or lead system, you know, is, and I think to your point, if there's something to automate it or. Uh, easier on everybody to track. That's absolutely the holy. Michael J. Goldrich: Yeah, it could like pump it right into Salesforce, into whatever CRM you have. Yeah, you gotta look into that one. 'cause that allows you to do the full circle of tracking. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Well, well speaking of full circle, um, the whole idea of these email campaigns that we would do now we have this whole thing called AI that's supposed to improve. Our marketing automated workflows and all those tools to help personalize emails at scale and to, to ultimately increase conversions. However, we're tracking those, those conversions, uh, form fill or RFP, uh, straight through to, uh, closed group or on the leisure side of booking. What are you doing, uh, Jason, or, and what are you seeing that excites you about AI's ability to personalize the. Jason Pirock: Yeah, I mean, I. Think that, um. I think there's a lot more to come. I think what it, what is interesting is that, you know, there is this ability to help curate, um, and craft, you know, itineraries and, you know, get the right information to the, the right people quickly. Um, and I think that's, that's exciting because ultimately we wanna reduce friction. Right. We wanna re reduce friction to that conversion path and get people to book. So the, the more seamless we can, um, we can make that whole experience the better. And I see a lot of, um, a lot of good in AI in doing that and really aggregating the information that you want so that you can make a. Educated decision much quicker than you ever could before. So I would say from that regard, that's what's exciting to me. Not to mention like there's so many places that it could go and, um, and take you, and I think there's so much more for us to, to see in the future. I think for me, what I am excited about is a little bit, a little bit less. Not that I'm not excited about the consumer side, but I think there's a lot of power, um, even from the operational side, you know, internally to an organization and what it can do to, um, create efficiencies to, you know, increase productivity, um, to then ultimately let you know these talented. Individuals that are, you know, super smart and creative. Spend more time on the strategy, spend more time on thinking about the holistic guest journey. That's what I am excited about. I mean, you know, as, as most of us know in the. Hotel industry, a lot of us run lean teams, right? Um, and everyone's wearing a bunch of hats. Everyone's spread thin. And so, um, I think this gives us the ability to, you know, maximize I. that talent further because it's taking some of those tedious things or, um, or maybe even, you know, more complex things, um, that are more task oriented or, um, or more execution focused off of our plates to allow us to think more and collaborate more, um, and innovate. Michael J. Goldrich: Right. So I'm, I'm working with this hotel group out west and I, every day I send them a survey to see how are they leveraging this technology. And I ask them to like pick choices. And, you know, the number one thing that, you know, I say if it can save an hour a day per person, and it does from what I'm measuring. So it does. So then how do you fill this hour? Uh, vast majority say do more work. So there's no thinking there. And then the number one second choice is they increase the quality of their work, which is good. They can do it better, but not, not the thinking. The third actually is the strategy. They have more time for strategy, so You know, as people become leaders and they're expected to spend their time thinking, they have less time to think and they have more to do. So in this technology theory is a time machine. It creates time. But then it's really incumbent all of us to kind of create those guardrails because again, there's too much to do. You have so much work you have to do so many fires to put out so many things you have to deal with. So that I think it's hard. Jason Pirock: I and I think getting more resources is always, is always challenging. So then what do you turn to? Right? You find ways to be more efficient. Um, to be more productive. And I think that's where, you know, um, we've got a lot of opportunity with AI ahead of us. Michael J. Goldrich: Indeed. Adam Mogelonsky: Jason, I wanna shift gears 'cause we've talked about Springboard marketing, ai, but you're also an advisor at Wonderland, which is, um, going from the inside out, looking at operations that can. Improved to, uh, improve the guest experience for kids and teens. I'm wondering if you could describe your role there, what the company does, and perhaps give us an example of one thing it's found, uh, with a certain hotel that that could improve, and then how that gets traced back to ROI, whether that's specific bookings or greater t rev, par or something like that. Jason Pirock: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, Wonderland London is the world's first and. Only kids and teens focused hospitality consultancy. Um, so I, my role there as, uh, as advisors, really, they brought me on not only from the marketing side of things, but more importantly understanding, um, the hospitality side. Um, Sarah and Alicia are, uh, both, um. Come from gaming toys, publishing industries, and they saw this big opportunity to connect with this segment. but they weren't as familiar with the hotel industry. And so my role is really to help them navigate that and, you know, think about how we pitch to different people. How do we connect to different folks, um, in a way that, uh, hoteliers, um, and hospitality folks understand, um, and things that we can sort of think through in order to kind of break through, um, into the industry and what would be impactful. So, um. You know, where the whole impetus for the, you know, the concept of Wonderland London came from is that they were seeing a lot of folks that out there, a lot of, you know, brands or companies saying that they were for kids or for teens, whatever it may be. but it came across as a little bit more, um, a little bit more passive, maybe less intentional than what they had hoped. Um, and, you know, the, the teddy bear, um, on the pillow. Is sort of, sort of a dated concept, right? It's more of a check the box, everybody's kind of doing it and where they're really looking at it is thinking about that experience through the lens of this segment. So I'm a five-year-old. How would I experience, um, the hotel I. From, you know, arrival to check in. What's that sense of adventure, that sense of exploration, um, you know, what's in room that we sort of start to think about. And it doesn't have to be, you know, necessarily about the amenities that are there. Um, whether it's like, you know, connecting rooms or bunk beds, that's a part of it. Sure. But they're thinking about it even in even bigger than that. How can you take concepts like, you know. A mini bar and create one for kids in the sense that it has toys and, you know, um, games and maybe even treats that, uh, are more relevant to them, right? To still involve them in the overall experience. And it's extremely important because this, both of these segments have a massive, um, influence on. Purchasing and decision making. I mean, you know, we use this phrase of happy kids, equal happy families, equal happy reviews because 77% of parents are influenced by their children, um, about their vacation activities, which is pretty incredible. And Um. 50% state that they include their children's wishes in their, um, vacation planning or holiday planning. And another interesting note is that 85% of parents reveal their teen's happiness is a key factor in choosing a vacation destination. So not only are they important now in terms of, you know, the, the the buying power and the lifetime value of that parent today, but these teens will eventually become. The buyers, right? And they have money to spend and they're going to have money to spend, right? And so it's something to really start to think about. It's an untapped opportunity, um, today in the industry because no one, I've seen very few that are truly focused on it in a genuine, intentional, authentic way. Um, and that's really what Wonderland is here to help solve for. Michael J. Goldrich: I, I think that's absolutely ingenious, and I see that actually with my kids. Like we had this one trip down to Disney and we stayed at the Sheraton and they actually just associate Sheraton with their entire trip experience. I. And now it's their favorite hotel because it's just, you know, it, they, we didn't spend much time there, but that is just like, they saw the big, uh, the name when every time you walk in, they had all the, the branding there. So I, yeah, I think that's really powerful. And I do see, yeah, as a parent, when you're booking a trip, you wanna think, uh, is my kid gonna be happy? What can I do to keep them happy? Now, it's interesting. My parents never thought that way, so it's totally a generational thing, right? Jason Pirock: absolutely. And from a Hotelier side, you know the question that comes up, and I'm sure you're, you maybe were about to ask this is like, you know, what's in it for me, right? I mean, not only the guests, but there's probably a cost associated with it. And what I think we have to remember is that, you know, with any of these things, it's a part of, of the experience you're working towards loyalty, you're working towards. You know, that return guest, those great reviews, um, that word of mouth marketing. But not to mention, there's also a revenue opportunity to be had. You know, things like upsells, add-ons, um, packages, and even surprise and delight that then get you back to the loyalty. And we also know that, um, there's tons of stats out there. Loyal folks spend way more and it's cheaper, obviously. It's cheaper to keep them, and they spend a lot more than it is to acquire new, right? So anything you can do to invest in, you know, that segment and keep them happy and keep them loyal is ultimately putting money back, uh, to the top line. Michael J. Goldrich: Do you try to stick that into the pre, like when they're booking, do the add-ons in or is it when they're on property start to sell it then? Because you know, if. it's ideally to try to get them into the flow, but then all of a sudden the ticket price might get too big. Or do you hit them a little bit with a pre email and say, oh, you can do this and this. Jason Pirock: Yeah, it varies. You know, they're, they're pretty new to the game, so not a ton of case studies at this point. Um, we're still, you know, we're, we're still working with, you know, a handful of different clients, but what we're sort of seeing is it really depends on the need of the, um. Of the hotel we've seen, you know, some that are looking at it as like more of that arrival. So it's more when it's on site, um, some are just a surprise and delight in the room. Um, others are looking for more of the packages or opportunities or rethinking how they story tell on their website and what that overall experience is. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, you stole the words right outta my mouth. Uh, talking about the value you can derive from appealing to kids straight through till, I guess net promoter score might be something you can measure an uptick Jason Pirock: Absolutely. Adam Mogelonsky: based Jason Pirock: imagine like, I mean there, I mean there a week could go on, right? I mean, think about like the PR legs that it has too. You, you do this, you know, you do like this cool mini bar. Yeah, that now you've got like, you know, press and media and influencers that are super interested in, in having this as a part of their experience because people are attracted to that, right? There's a lot of value, um, in what they're offering, and I think people who are, you know, getting ahead of it are, are going to, you know. Get the benefits of that and sort of being that early adopter and, and sort of first to market, if you will, to get a lot of that attention and. Michael J. Goldrich: what do you think is like the biggest sort of a tri, so like story, like little books or something like maybe personalized books. Like I remember when I was a kid, you'd put in your name and you get a book printed out with your name. Like what did, what do you think would be the. Biggest like thing that I, I know you said there weren't a lot of case studies there, but what do you think? What, what are they thinking Jason Pirock: Yeah, I mean we're, we've got a lot of different things out there. I mean, there's sort of the, the business is sort of broken out into a few different segments. One being that consultancy on the, the larger, um. Experience of the hotel, one being more of like, call it, um, gifts, whether that's welcome amenities or like survival kits or you know, those types of things. And then they've got like a more unique partnership type of angle as well. And so what we are sort of seeing where there's traction is, you know, creating more around the experience and creating more that. Is, um, is kind of customized to that place or that hotel and it doesn't have, we remember we're dealing with, you know. Spec, well, specifically with kids, you know, small things make a big impact, right? Um, teens are get a little bit more challenging, right? Because they expect a little bit more. They're, they're a bit more mature and they, they know more of what they want. But when you think about things like, um, even a, you know, something new that we're, we're working on right now that we've put out there is, um, sort of these room dividers that are, um, that feel like kind of, um. Like tents or caves that essentially like you're creating the space within a hotel room, um, that is their own little space, right? As kids. Um, and that could be, you know, as kids, we, I'm sure we all were in that phase of, um, you know, building tents or, you know, with sheets in our living room over chairs and all of that, right? Yeah. Four, it's exactly. Um, and so this is kind of taking that concept and, and creating different like, you know, landscapes or sceneries, whether, you know, it's, uh, you know, looking out a window or it's a dollhouse or whatever it may be. And sort of creating those four hotels. So one side is like for the parents and the other is for the kids, and really creating that sense of adventure, but also solving for a little bit of. Separation of space. Um, and so it's things like that again, that can make a huge impact on, you know, the guest experience and, and have fun with it. Right. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, so so I, I wanna sort of end the conversation here a little bit with a perhaps trickier question to an, to uh, answer here. So, we're talking about improving with kids here, and a lot of that could be opex, the teddy bear, you know, that's, uh, that's an opex sort of thing. Um, the, the Fort Dividers that can, that can be opex a little bit. Of all that, but there's also CapEx and one of the big trends I've seen with kids and teens is this whole idea of a kids club. Which in one way, shape, or form is gonna be a separate building or a reno of an existing space. Throw in some, uh, a game center or something cool like that. Board games accessible, uh, PlayStation, um, some giant tic-tac toe, giant Jenga, some cool stuff. And then, and then some sports and everything like that. And then of course, a person to manage the whole thing along with the staff. How would you justify that expense or any sort of big CapEx to really make a property really appeal to kids and teens? How would you justify that CapEx and put some numbers behind it to senior team as part of, uh, the projects you're undertaking? Jason Pirock: Yeah, that's a. That's a great question. And I think that, I think ultimately you have to ask yourself, um, who are we and what are we solving for, right? I think that something like that works at a place where you have, um, a longer length of stay, like a resort or you know, more lo cavity where you're, you're spending more time and you, you are gonna have more of that downtime. And I think if you're gonna do it, I think it's all about. Do it in an intentional way, don't do it to check a box. Like if you're gonna do that, what else are you doing to say that you are, you know, four kids or four teens, or four families? Because I think that's where, um, there becomes more power and you start to, um, get more, more people attracted. I think if. People pick up on, you know, the check the box mentality. And so I think the, the more that you can kind of go in on it, the better you are. And then, you know, maybe that becomes as far as justifying that expense to, you know, the property or, or the leadership team. I think there's a couple of different ways that you can do that. One is, does it become an add-on experience? Is there a cost to it? Um, is that baked into, um, into your rate? Um, that could be, or a part of, you know, CPOR or something along those lines. Um. Or, you know, is, does it become more about, you know, looking at your, kind of going back to that intentionality and, and thinking about, um, where it makes sense, like looking at your occupancy or your makeup of families to even decide if that's the right route to go. So I think there's different ways to sort of slice and dice it and think about it and ask the right questions. Um, and then from there, once you figure out if it makes sense, you can figure out, um, how you can start to make sure that you know, you are capitalize, capitalize on, on it to an extent, as assuming that is your goal. And some cases it might not be your goal, it's just more of a value add and amenity that you wanna have so that you can attract more, um, of those guests. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Well, I mean, you said it is, you have to have the data to begin with. You have to know, uh, your guest profiles and you have to know that they're traveling as a family with kids, and you need to be able to trace the, the cost for occupied room as it's going through to actually show this holistically to see whether that's an investment. You could even go so far as in a resort context, if you have land and you can expand, you're deciding between, um, a suite product that maybe appeals to couples versus a one bedroom suite that can have cots or a fold out couch or two bedroom for teens, three bedroom, et cetera. So you can make those differential decisions going all the way back to the work you're doing in marketing as well. So it's, yeah, the data, Jason, uh, you know, it's been a delightful hour talking with you. I'm wondering is there anything important that we haven't touched on that you wanna close out the conversation by mentioning? Jason Pirock: No, I think you've, I think we've had a great conversation as well. I really appreciate the time. Um, it's been a ton of fun talking with you all and, and sort of riffing off all these different ideas. I feel like we could probably talk for hours and hours more, but Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. It's, it's amazing, you know, if, if we were to have an AI scrape this conversation just for the terminology that the three of us have mentioned, it's what you've said, Jason, you know, I don't mean to get your ego, uh, too inflated, but basically just a pure masterclass in hospitality, both on the marketing side and the operations side. So, bravo and thank. Jason Pirock: Thank you very much.