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Kill Jack Bauer · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Wance. I'm a checkups.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Wait the audults your hey, everybody, Welcome to a very
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: special episode of Conspiracy The Show. I'm Adam Todd Brown.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Who are you, Hey, I'm Olivia Hidar.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I think that makes us your hosts. Olivia, how's it going?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: You know, go go pretty good on like a weird jag.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Like I feel like hyped up, you know, like my
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: energy is like through the roof because I just watched
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: so much twenty four within the last twenty four hours.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: It was my own personal twenty four.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited to talk about what we're talking about
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: this week because we very briefly mentioned twenty four on
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: this week's episode of Unpopular Opinion in that the makers
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: of twenty four should be held accountable for their crimes
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: against the military. I don't even know how to put it.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Who are the victims of twenty four besides Muslims and
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: anyone who is trying to conduct warfare in a quote
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: unquote ethical manner? Right?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Muslims and to a secondary extent, all
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Arabs and Middle Eastern people's are the real victims of
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: twenty four, followed closely by the last shreds of military
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: ethics in the United States.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a thing I hadn't thought about much
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: recently a TV show twenty four, and so we briefly
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: mentioned it on the episode of Unpopular Opinion, and then
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: an article came out like minutes after we recorded that
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: episode where Keifer Sutherland was talking about, Hey, maybe we
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: should bring twenty four back, and oh, I don't know.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I think maybe we shouldn't.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know we shouldn't. I think it's a bad idea.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I think the previous attempts to do this have proven
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: that it was a bad idea.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Twenty four to me, I know these aren't direct comparisons,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: so don't make it seem like I'm directly equating these things.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: But twenty four has taken on kind of a birth
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: of the Nation feel, where for a long time people
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: viewed Birth of a Nation as this achievement in filmmaking,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: and then there was this whole other part of the
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: country that was like, yeah, but you get what that
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: movie's about, right right, Like there are I get that
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: they did some cool filmmaking things, but there are some
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: problems with that movie. And eventually people came around and
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: I feel like twenty four is sort of in that
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: same vein where to this day people will be like, yeah,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: but it was such a good show, Like it was
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: very well written, the cinematography, like one of the articles
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: will link to it literally says, well, what's lost in
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: all of the torture debate is how great the cinematography was.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: And it's like, yeah, because it was glamorizing torture, so
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: the cinematography doesn't matter.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And also the cinematography isn't that good? Yeah, it's really
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: not like I look like I said, I watched a
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: lot of this show.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another article rightfully points out that we thought this
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: show was great before like The Wire existed, right, this
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: was really the last great network TV or last no no,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: no no The Good Wife, which was legitimately was the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: last great network TV show. Fuck you, okay, but good
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I just want so good I will fly to Indy.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I've heard.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I know that The Good Wife is good, We've I
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: know I need to watch it. But what I The
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: show that I want to bring up, as I am
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: wont to do on many episodes of an Unpopped podcast
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: is a little television program called Lost that came out
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and four, just three years after the
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: first the premiere of twenty four, but like it feels
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: like it was made fifteen years after. Twenty four feels
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: so ugly cinematically and otherwise in comparison to Lost, which
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: like I just consider that to me is at least
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: for the decade of two thousand to twenty ten. Like
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: as far as network dramas.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I would say, Lost the Wire and probably Breaking Bad,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: right the so twenty the why I'm so early, And
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: it did like it was a cool concept and it
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: did seem really well actrated. But I think they're right
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: that those other shows came so much quicker after that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: that when you look at twenty four now not so much. Right,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: that's so great.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I'm specifically comparing network like the HBO it had HBO money,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and Breaking Bad was AMC breaking off of Madmen and
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: trying to do something else whereas Lost was on ABC.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And like it looks a thousand times better than any
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: episode of twenty four has ever looked it just in general,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: and it also tackles some of the similar themes in
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: a much better way and is way more action packed.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: But like it's not like Lost versus twenty four. I'm
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: just like that's kind of my benchmark when I'm thinking
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: about network shows of the era. I don't want to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: unfairly judge twenty four. I guess by like comparing it
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: to things that couldn't possibly be better than, but also
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: like it's still not as good as its contemporaries.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that you have basically never watched
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: twenty four because it makes a good counterpoint for me,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: a person who watched all of twenty four. I watched
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: the shit out of twenty four. Yeah, but it was
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: almost kind of a bait and switch situation. Like you
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: have to think about how soon after nine to eleven
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: twenty four premiered. It was weeks after nine to eleven.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: And there's a reason it was allowed to premiere that
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: soon after nine to eleven, and it's because that first
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: season isn't remotely about Middle Eastern terrorists. There's nothing in
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: it aside from a scene in the trailer where a
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: plane explodes in the sky, which they end up editing
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: out of the show.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Nothing is done, and it's done by a white woman.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: The oh yeah, yeah blowing up in the actual episode,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Like that's one of the episodes I watched it's a
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: white woman who blows up the plate.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, spoiler alert, but yeah, the main terrorist in the
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: first season is a white woman. And so even though
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: it was so fresh off at nine to eleven, it
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: didn't feel like a reference to nine to eleven. It
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: just felt like a show about terrorism, like all the
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: terrorists were tied to fucking slow down Melosovich exactly.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the thing. It feels like it because
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: it was made pre nine eleven. It really feels like
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: the last pre nine to eleven action movie in a way,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: like it really has that vibe of all the terrorist
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: stories pre nine to eleven.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: And the thing about the first season is it's good,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: like at least it's fine, Like at the time, Yeah,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: the concept was neat, like the idea of twenty four
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: episodes of a show that cover each hour of one day,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: like that was the whole idea at first. They initially
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: planned this as a rom com and then eventually landed
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: on a terrorism drama. But it didn't have any of
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: that nine to eleven stink on it in that first season.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: So it felt fine watching Jack Bauer torture Slosevich's people,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: like right, and in that context, you could take it
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: as well, this is just a TV show. But once
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: they make that pivot in season two to where okay,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: well nine to eleven has happened and now this is
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: all about fighting Middle Eastern terrorists, the show just got
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: weird and gross after that. And like, progressively, So if
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: that's the right word to use for a show that
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: he was giving more and more uncomfortably racist as it
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: goes along, you know, progressively racist.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Right of course. I mean, like, you know, listening to
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: some of the creative people evolved, that's like kind of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: how they saw their roles. Is yeah, progressively racist. It's interesting.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I only watched the pilot of the first season, so
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I can't judge it like very accurately. But it also
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: seemed like torture was less of a big deal from
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: what I could tell about the first season. It didn't
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: happen as much. Maybe it was more of like a
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: once or twice kind of thing.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, far be it from me to push conspiracy theories,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: but I feel like there had to be some degree
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: of government cooperation in this show as it goes along,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: and I have that way at the end of the notes.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: But Yolo, I guess like one of the things you'll
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: read in articles about this show now is that, Well,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: they were like way better political commentators than even the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Daily Show, Like they knew what the government was doing.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Like they it was almost like they were predicting what
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: the government was going to do next. And it's like
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: this show was a commercial for what the government was going.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: To do next.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: This show well normalized what the Bush administration was doing
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: in response to nine to eleven. I know it could
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: be a coincidence, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Like the CIA has a Hollywood liaison department where they
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: just consult on TV shows and movie projects that they
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: want to turn out a certain way, like they're very
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: easily could have been meetings between the right wing fuckstick
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: who made this show and the Bush administration about hey,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: maybe send the message that we need torture.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Well, not only is it a commercial for the Bush administration,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: it is giving them ideas, Like literally, people in the administration,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: people working in the military at the time, by their
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: own admission, it's giving them ideas, and that in itself
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: is a mind boggling thing to kind of consider.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, linked to some interviews with the various showrunners
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: of this and At one point, one of them, I
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: think it's Howard Gordon, talks about how they would just
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: have like writers room brainstorming sessions on torture methods. Yeah,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: because there's so much torture depicted in this show, they
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: have to get creative with it, like they can't just
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: do the same thing over and over. My personal favorite,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: if I can put one forth for nomination, there's a
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: scene early in it might be season one, probably maybe
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: season two, but what's special about it? For one thing,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: he's interrogating a middle aged white couple who live in
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the suburbs, which that's refreshing, and he has the husband
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: and wife tied up. He wants the information from the husband,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: and he shoots the husband in the knee, and the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: husband's like, listen, dude, you can do whatever the fuck
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: you want to me. I'm not gonna tell you a
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: fucking thing. And Jack Bauer immediately shoots the wife and
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the knee next, and let me tell you, the lols
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: in watching and that had to be like half of
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: this show was just all right, well, yeah, okay, Well,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: now we've arrived at the fourteenth torture scene in this episode.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: How are we gonna make it right, like, and by
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: like season five and six, Jack Bauer is cutting people's
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: heads off with hack saws and like just biting jugular veins.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: And it's like, this show shouldn't have survived past season one.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Season one was cool. It either should have stopped after
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: season one out of respect for nine to eleven, or
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: season two should have been the rom com. They were like, yeah,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: just like, how groundbreaking.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: That have been if every season tackled a different subject
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: but in that same twenty four hour format, that would
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: have been neat. But instead they started bootlecking the Bush administrations. Yeah,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I think's a problem that wrong.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I think the problem there is that would require the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: creator of the show to not be a giant fucking asshole, which,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: by all accounts is what Joelcer now is.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: It seems like Joelcer now Howard Gordon.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Howard Gordon. Yeah, he at least like he's one
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: of the guys who kind of sometimes pretends to be
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: not a total like right wing maniac, but like he
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: still is like totally an immoral Hollywood caricature.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: It feels a lot like Hannity and Combs. Remember when
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Sean Hannity used to have a liberal counterpart on his
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: shdu are still on Fox News stop. Yeah, and that's
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: why Combs doesn't have a job now, probably.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, what, I don't even know what happened to him.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard that name in eighty five years.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, who's hiring Combs after that? No way, CNN can't
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: hire Combs?
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Who would I wouldn't So yeah, it even without the
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: pivot to this being a pro.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Torture show, it just got stupid. Like, yeah, season two,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Jack Bauer's daughter, who I believe already got kidnapped season one, Yes,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: she gets kidnapped again in season two, but also at
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: one point gets stalked by a cougar, like an actual cougar,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: like the animal. It is one of the most notoriously
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: bad television show writing moments of all time. And this
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: show survived for so many years after that. The other thing,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: this show's good for one season, and it makes it
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: till twenty ten. Yeah, I still feel like there's government
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: involvement there.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Probably I feel like they.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Carried on into the Obama administration just to make it
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: look good. But it's like, yeah, right, you know what
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: this show was. It was our commercial for how we
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: wanted to torture people.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was extremely popular. Like for as
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: blatantly right wing as it is, and like watching it now,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: it just is so right wing. There was still the
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: very common sentiment among otherwise liberal media professionals, like reporters
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: people and like people who would do television recaps and
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing in the early days of that,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: who were just like, yeah, sure, like the torture stuff
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: is kind of gross, but like it's just so good.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It's just it's so exciting and fun to watch.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The first big piece of internet content that I
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: ever did that actually attracted an audience was a fake
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: script for an episode of twenty four that was just
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: about Jack Bauer eating and going to the bathroom. It's
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: also like getting around La really quick.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: That was in the first episode even in Wild to
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: see some of the way he like leaves the house
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and has a phone call and is at like the
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: fucking office within the like three minutes. Like it's insane.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: This show had no reason to be set in Los
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Angeles and it's wild. That's a thing they should have
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: fixed immediately, because well, in theory, there should have been
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: several like Bottle episodes that were just Jack Bauer dealing
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: with shit from his car in traffic before five, and
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: there was not like he would just get places in
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: like ten minutes and it's like nope, does he have
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: a helicopter? You know?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: There was never a scene where Jack Bauer goes into
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: a gas station and buys Chucker speed.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: There, you know, there's none of this.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: That's why they should have changed the entire premise after
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: season one, because yeah, people got too much time to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: think about this show, like it's a thing that should
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: have come and gone, and then now we'd be making
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: these criticisms and people would be like, well, yeah, that's
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: why it was only one season. Of course it's stupid,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: but it's good stupid, and it's like, no, this goes
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: on to be dangerous stupid.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Very dangerous stupid. The whole problem, Like yeah, but the
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: whole thing is that it was so popular. It just
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: made so much money that very few channels would ever
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: cancel a show that did as well as twenty four.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And that's the whole thing. Fox has not stopped trying
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: to bring this ship back. It initially made it until
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: twenty ten. That was when, which even that seems so
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: deep into the War on Terror. We were like three
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: years into hope and Guantanamo would be closed by that point,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: and twenty four is still on the air, Like twenty
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: four is Guantanamo the TV show?
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yes? Literally get like people in back in two thousand
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and two talk about watching the show and taking ideas
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: for it in Toto, And.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: They brought it back for a twelve episode series called
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: twenty four Live Another Day.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Bullshit. They should have called it twelve.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, there's twelve episodes of twenty four. That makes
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: no sense.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, like, but you could, you would just have
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: to call it twelve. I think I would be fine
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: with it if it was just if they just titled
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: it twelve.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Then in twenty seventeen they try to reboot called twenty
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: four Legacy that did not involve Jack Bauer. It starred
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Corey Hawkins of guy who played Dre and straight out
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: of Compton Fame in the League. A very good actor.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: He's in uh he plays McDuff in the Tragedy at Macbeth.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Oh that's right, Yeah, he's he's.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Really good in that. But I can't imagine that show
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: is good. There's no way. I just I don't buy
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: it the twenty four legacy or whatever it's called.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I maybe watched an episode, but yeah,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: it's like by that point, I think a lot of
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: people knew twenty four. I don't know unless he was
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: going to come back fighting the Proud Boys, Like, there's
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: no way. And even then, I'm not going to normalize
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: the idea of torture, even if we're talking about the
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Proud Boys, because then the administration that takes power next
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: will be like, well, you thought it was okay for
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: the Proud Boys, so.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Right, we can No. I would never, I would never yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and would never suggest that.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I just I can't imagine a world where this show
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: still works and they keep fucking trying. Yeah, and even after,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: like I said, we just talked about it on Pops briefly,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: and almost as soon as we finished that episode, this
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: key for Sutherland interview with GQ magazine comes out and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: he's talking about wanting to give twenty four shot. Here's
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: a quote. I miss it. It was an incredible experience.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I've learned that you're just better off not to be
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: definitive about your answer of whether you will do something
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: or not do something. I love playing the character. I
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: do believe the story is unresolved. If something were to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: be written that made sense to me and that I
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: thought was going to contribute to the franchise, then I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: would be behind it, even if my participation in that
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: were to be limited. Here's a theory. I don't think
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Key for Sutherland can get any other work right now. Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: There is a very famous Freddie Prinz Junior interview from
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: a few years back. I don't remember what movie he
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: was promoting, but they asked him like something about his
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: worst on set experience, and he was like, oh, I
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: did twenty four with Key for Sutherland. He is the
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: most unprofessional person in the world. He also said that
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: is not me talking shit. Anyone who's worked with him
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: will tell you that. Yeah. I feel like Key for
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Sutherland doesn't have a lot of options. Like I'm sure
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: he's got like any actor of his pedigree is gonna
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: get jobs, absolutely, but there's a difference between getting like
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: a direct to Amazon Prime movie and a twenty four reboot.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And I feel like twenty four is probably Key for
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Sutherland's last real inroad to like major work.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's his only piece of cultural cachet
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: at the moment, I don't think the lost Boy he
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: has any sort of potential of that capacity. And other
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: than that, I don't think right now, especially to like
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: generations younger than millennials, even I don't think they know
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: him as anything other than the guy who was Jack Bauer.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: He is so tied to Jack Bauer that this Variety
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: article that we'll link to, which references the GQ interview,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: they just fuck up and call him Jack Hour at
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: one point. This is a quote Bower told GQ he
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: almost quit the show during its first season when filming
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: was interrupted by the September eleventh terrorist attacks. That's got
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: a sting, like that's got to be like Jilli ol
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: White getting called birkele and an article or something.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know much about Keifer Sutherland's reputation as
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a as like a guy on ZEP, but doesn't super
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: shock me that he might be a bit unprofessional.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I know he's a big alcoholic, Like I don't know
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: if he still is. He could be in recovery now,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: but I've never heard any stories about him being in recovery.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: But I've heard stories about him jumping into Christmas trees
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: in the Love I heard.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard some of these stories.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he seems like a character that's sure.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess Donald kept most of the acting genes,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: though he's good in some stuff.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Keifer Sutherland's a good actor, and he's good as Jack. Yeah,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: there's a reason the role is as beloved as it is.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: It's just, you know, not everyone has the politics we have.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: And once you remove I mean, from the equation, oh man,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: twenty four is a wild romp, such a fun ride,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: like once you don't care about its impact on the world.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, are those torture scenes fun? I see?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. I was trying to view
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: it fairly neutrally as much as I'm able to, and
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: it's fine. I gets he is good as Jack Power,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: but that character is extremely one note. He is, oh yeah,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: emotionally unfazed by almost everything, except for like a few
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: times that he like yells and and like it feels
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: bad about something and that, but like then he goes
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: back to making cool, rational decisions almost immediately.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: We're kind of jumping around the notes here, but at
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: one point the set of twenty four is visited by
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: US Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan. Yes, the Dean of
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: West Point. So the guy in charge of the people
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: who teach our best military people how to be a
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: military people shows up at the set with three of
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: the best military and FBI interrogators in all the land
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: and is like, stop it. What you are showing on
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: this show is toxic. Yeah, and it is making our
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: jobs way harder. And we'll get into that whole meeting
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: more who. But this is a quote from an FBI
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: expert on interrogation techniques, because the defense that the showrunners
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: gave to that was well, yeah, but it's pretty obvious
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: that Jack Bauer is mentally bothered by this, and like
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: he takes it really hard, and they're like, he goes
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: on making completely rational decisions the rest of his day, Like,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: if he's bothered by this at all, it's barely, which
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: brings up this quote from Joe Navarro, FBI expert on
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: interrogation techniques. Yeah, only a psychopath can torture and be unaffected.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: You don't want people like that in your organization. They
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: are untrustworthy and tend to have grotesque other problems. End quote.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: So it's not just that twenty four depicted torture as
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: a thing that worked. It's that it depicted it as
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: a thing that worked in a way that impacted the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: people who in real life had to decide if torture
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: was a thing that worked. Yes, And even when the
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: military came to twenty four and was like will you
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: please stop, they were like, yeah, it's just a TV show. Ye,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: anyone knows it's just entertainment. And they're like, no, we
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: teach the people who need to know that it's just
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: entertainment and they don't know that it's just entertainment. Will
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: you please stop? And they're still like no.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Like he's talking about his students watching the show religiously
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: and then coming to class and applying the ideas of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: the show to their lessons, which again are about how
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to actually be in the military, which is wild. And also,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: sir now didn't even go to that meeting. Yeah with them.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Joel Surnow, he's the other creator of this show. There's
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: three main dudes who created the show. Yeah, Howard Gordon.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: We will link to an interview with Howard Gordon. Also,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: he is he's like the Lenin of the Lennon and
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: McCartney duo that created this show and that he's like
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: the progressive one and like the hips. Sure, but also
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you're making twenty four dude.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but then that makes sir now McCartney, I know,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. Oh, I guess they're the Hannity
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and Combs. Wait, I guess. Yeah, And this guy is
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: homes in that he's pretending like, oh no, I'm like
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the liberal balance.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I'm just a showman.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just write the show. They tell me what
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: to write, and I just write it. And it's just payment.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: No one cares.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: We do improv sessions about torture and all that. It's
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: just so biz.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: But then also here's this sort of long quote from
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: that liberal Democrat voice of the twenty four universe, and
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: this is him talking. This is Howard Gordon talking about
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: writing twenty four after nine to eleven. Yeah, here we go.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Suddenly we were getting to write about this character who
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: had become America's hero, who wasn't just fighting the terrorist,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: but was really fighting part of I think everybody's rage
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and confusion of how much our institutions had let us
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: down and how much the law enforcement and intelligence apparatus
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: had missed this attack. Jack cut from the old school
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: cloth of the individual, rugged American hero who bucks authority
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and does whatever he needs to do to get the
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: job done and doesn't throw up excuses. Was part of
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the line of Clint Eastwood and Sylvester Stallone and Charles Bronson.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a character we'd never seen before, but it
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: was a character we hadn't seen quite that robustly expressed
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: on television. I think we the writers really got to
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: unconsciously express our anger at the terrorists and the bureaucracy.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I think we wrote him the way people watched him,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: and with that kind of I wish this guy existed.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I wish I knew somebody like that who just says
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: it like it is and is not afraid of the
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: consequences and to just cut through the bullshit. I think
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: in that way it was cathartic, and I think it
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: was cathartic for the audience as well. End quote, and man,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that someone who just tells it like it
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: is and cuts through the bullshit stuff never manifested it
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: in a bad way. Exact United States, Like he's basically saying, like,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: you know how dirty Harry used to just almost indiscriminately
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: kill black people and then we like found that entertaining
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: same thing, same thing with your power, like dirty Hair,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Like that's such a Charles Bronson is such a bad
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: reference to make their when the question at hand is
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: how you treat Muslims in your show, He's like, no,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: it's just like Dirty Harry is, Like, don't you get it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: It's like it speaks to our fears that you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: It's like you get Dirty Harry spoke to Americans fears
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: that like black people were evil. That's not those aren't
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: the fears you should be trying to speak to in
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: this show.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But also like Dirty Harry was is like a charismatic
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and killings. Yeah, like I like watching East would play that.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I recognize, you know, the moral flaws.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm sounding like a twenty four watcher. But like,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: at the same time, though, there is still I think
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: a palpable quality difference. If we're talking, you know, when
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: we get into like the later Death Wish movies, then yeah, sure,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: but like you know, the Dirty Harry movies are like
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: pretty well made for the most part.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're good movies. I do wonder if
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: there's kind of the same stuff at play there where
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: it's like I can't get in the heads of the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: people who wrote the Dirty Hairy movies, but I don't
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: doubt there was this same idea of, well, this is
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: what America's worried about, that these black people are just
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: gonna and come kick open the doors of their diners
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: and rob everybody. And it's like, I don't know if
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: that was everyone's fear.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: No, I don't know.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: If I don't know, it's very it's a very complicated
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: comparison for him to make.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: It definitely definitely is. And I think also what like
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: what makes the Dirty Harry movies and the like easier
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to watch now is because we are not as intimately
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: connected to the exact political things that they're playing on,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: like sure, racist policing and these sorts of issues that
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about literally, like you know, the exact fears
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: of Like I don't know.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: There, I get what you're saying, because they're like, you
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: can't be a cop and watch Dirty Harry and go, yeah,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: that's how it's supposed to be, right. No one's going
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: to buy that argument, right, But this came down to,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: like a actual political debate where people were like, like,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: it ends up getting referenced by fucking antonin Scalia in
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: a Supreme Court ruling. Well, I don't know if it's
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: a Supreme Court ruling.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: No, he was just a fan.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was commenting on something and he was like,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: you know, you wouldn't arrest Jack Bauer for protecting Los
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Angeles And it's like, dude, that's a TV show. What
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: are you talking about. You can't bring that into your
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: legal opinion. That is a television show. Yeah, and you
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: find so many examples of people using that reasoning, like well, yeah,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: torture's bad, but just look at twenty four.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets the job done there.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: What happens if the bomb is like landing at Lax
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: in fifteen minutes and we don't know if it's landing
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: at Lax or John Wayne or Bob Hope, Like, we're
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: gonna have to gouge someone's kneecap out with a grapefruit
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: spoon to find out where that bomb is landing, like
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: and that shit just never happens. No, it's not a
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: terrorism scenario that ever ever had, Like, yeah, by the
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: time you're that close to getting bombed, you're getting bombed, Like,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: have we known about nine to eleven eight minutes before
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: it happened? Nine to eleven would have happened. And I
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: mean that's me looking at it through the twenty four lens,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: like we knew about nine to eleven like eight months
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: before it happened. Probably, But like it's just not a
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: realistic depiction of how terrorism works, but it was treated
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: as such. And that's what makes this so much more
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: dangerous of a show than I think any other I show.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did love a little bit and talking about
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: that New Yorker piece where they talk about the history
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: of the ticking bomb scenario and they trace it back
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to this French book from nineteen sixty called Less Centurions,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: which is written during the French occupation of Algeria. So
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I find it very interesting that this ticking time bomb
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: scenario is almost exclusively and going back to the beginning,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: associated with Arabs and Muslims. I find that very very
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: interesting and fiction, yeah, and fiction obviously, but fiction specifically
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: aimed at inciting violence against Arabs and Muslims.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's where this show's defense of its use
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: of torture falls apart, is because all of the torture
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: is being done in the name of a premise that
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: literally never happens. Yes, And what you'll hear from people
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: who actually engage in trying to fight acts of terrorism,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I guess is that it's way more effective to like
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: give someone a postcard to send home and then you
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like you get the address of where their family lives.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Like it's shit like that.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: It's like building trust and like being sneaky, Like you
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: don't just beat someone with a rubber hose and expect
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: that they're gonna capitulate to your demands. But that's exactly
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: how this show portrayed it. Like they bring up one
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: scene where Jack Bauer just walks in the room boom,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: and it's like, tell me who you're working for. And
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: the guy says, I'm not gonna tell you who I'm
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: working for. And the guy Jack Bower, shoots him in
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: the knee and the guy goes, there's a bomb that's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: gonna go off on a plane and this guy in
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: like fifteen minutes, and it's like, this dude is that
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: committed to this and you think shooting him in the
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: knee one time, right, he was like he was expecting
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: you to go all right, fine, I wasn't really gonna
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: torture you would please just tell me like he was
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: ready to be shot in the knee, Like there's no way.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: That's how that shit works. And that's what military people
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: had issue with. Yeah, it's like you're not helping. No
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: think you're helping the war on terror and you're making
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: it so much worse. Also that the war on Terror
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: is not real.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Right, no, of course, yeah, but they can't say that.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: But it is interesting, and it's interesting that we've got
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: these military members who are almost i mean like they
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: have experience an int irrigations some of them, but also
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: they have much more of almost a military historian mindset
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: to them, and they're horrified at twenty four. And then
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: that's compared with everything from people above those guys, who
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: are the people that the show twenty four portrays as
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: being bureaucratic woosies who can't get anything done, like anybody
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: who isn't who's above Jack Bauer, who is one of
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: these guys, one of these like on the ground interrogators,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: like all the people that the show portrays as being
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: fundamentally flawed by bureaucracy love the show and make a
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: point of saying it and like and sir now laps
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: it up, like there's so many quotes where he like
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: this one where he goes, like, people in the administration
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: love the series too. It's a patriotic show. They should
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: love it. Like Jack Bauer is so specifically described as
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: a patriot by so many different people across all of
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: these interviews that we've read. It's wild that that's the
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: defining feature.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And it's one of the things that makes me feel
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: like there was some government involvement in this show, because
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: one of the articles will link to it's on Yahoo News,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: and it's one that comes, i guess, maybe the closest
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: to actually being critical of the legacy of this show.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: But it points out that at one point there was
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: like a huge government investigation into how we handled things
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: in the Middle East in general, and especially with torture
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: and interrogation. And whereas twenty four portrays it as all
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: these fucking suits not wanting to get their hands dirty
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: and do what needs to be done to fight terrorism,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: whereas Jack Bauer was going rogue as a real patriot,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: exact opposite, the torture stuff was coming down from on high.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: They were like Hey, how about you maybe put a
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: garden hose down that guy's throat and fucking jizz in
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: it or something. We don't know, see if that works.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: And the people on the ground were like, yeah, they're
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: just here to get a college degree. Are you fucking
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: kidding me? You want me to do that?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And I know it's like there's some middle ground there.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's some people who were like, well, yes,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: I will of course do that, But it doesn't change
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: the fact that this wasn't rogue military people committing acts
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: of torture. No, No, this was they were ordered to
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: do this.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was administrative policy.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: And they went along with it to varying degrees of enthusiasm.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: But that's not how twenty four depicts it. And that
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: is a huge problem. Even if you're like, well, it's
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: just entertainment, Like when you're talking that political climate and
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: that point in history, to be a show about that, like,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: you got to be exact with those details. And if
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: the military is showing up and if Muslim groups are
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: showing up, there's I think it was season six that
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: was preceded by a like public service announcement from Jack
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Bauer where he was like, Hey, even though we make
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: it seem to be the case, right, every Muslim is
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: a terrorist, that's just the way we show it on
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: this show. And then the military believes us. But beyond that,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: it's all fucking fake.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: It literally sounds like that after school special cliche, like, uh,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: we have fun here, but in reality not every American
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Muslim wants to kill you and your family.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like, once you realize you need to
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: run that disclaimer, it should end with Also, this is
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the last episode of this show, well forever.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: And you know, maybe it would have if Joel Sir
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: now wasn't your last sick oppressed conservatives, which is totally
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: like his whole vibe is just h direct quote. It's
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: easier to come out as gay than conservative in Hollywood
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: these days.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is two thousand and seven when conservatives wan
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: the land, And it's like, are you sure? Are you sure?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: When we were canceling the Dixie Chicks for saying they
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: were ashamed of being from the same state as George Bush? Yeah?
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Are you sure it was more dangerous to come out
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: as a conservative when your long running television show upholding
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: fake conservative ideals? Yeah, is a massive hit.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: I love this This excerpt from the New Yorker piece
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I really love is Sir Now said that he found
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: the Clinton years of Knoxes Hollywood. Under Clinton, it was
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: like he was their guy's. He was the yuppie baby
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: boomer narcissist that all of Hollywood related to. Fair. During
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: those years, sir Now rerecalled, he had countless arguments with
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: liberal colleagues, some of whom stopped speaking to him. And
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: then I love this quote quote. My feeling is that
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: the Liberals' ideas are wrong, he said, but they think
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I'm evil. And then last year he contributed two thousand
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: dollars to the losing campaign of Pennsylvania's hardline Republican Senator
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Rick Santorum because he liked his position on immigration. His
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: favorite bumper sticker, he said, is except for ending slavery, fascism, Nazism,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: and communism, war has never solved anything. I wonder what ideas,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: what liberal ideas that you thought were wrong that might
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: make them think that you're evil that. I wonder what
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: that would be.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine. It seems like he's just misunderstood.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Like you say, you know, Republicans conservatives are
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: the new appress class, just like he says.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: And like, here's the thing, I didn't know all that. No,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: when I started watching this show in two thousand and one, yea,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: like the Internet was very different, Like the information about
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: who was making this show wasn't as readily available. This
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: New Yorker article we're talking about comes out in two
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: thousand and seven, Like that's six years after twenty four
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: premiered and a year after it won an Emmy for
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: last Primetime Drama. So there were a lot of years
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: where I think even people like myself were like, yeah,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: but it's just a TV show. Yeah, Like it's not
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: like it's just entertainment. And it's like they're not always
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Muslim terrorists, Like sure, fifty percent of the terrorists the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: first six seasons were Muslim, but look it's season seven
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: and now they're moving on to fighting black people now
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: that oll b office.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Oh no no.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: But even season two, it started, even for me, who
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I was a fan of the show from an entertainment standpoint,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: it started to become kind of a hate watch thing
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: because I recognized this was a premise that could not
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: sustain that many seasons, and you know that in season
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: two when Kim Bauer starts getting stalked by a cougar,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: right of course, like she like she gets kidnapped by
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: an animal. And that's season two after she's already been
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: kidnapped once and I think she's got two more kidnappings
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: in her future. But even then, the show felt entertaining
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: because it felt stupid. But then all these years removed,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, it wasn't stupid, That's why Abu grab happened. Yeah,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I get it now, Like this show shouldn't come back.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: There's no reason shouldn't come for this show to come back.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Absolutely no.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: What new is there to say here? There's nothing nothing.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: There was nothing new to say to begin with. The
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: only thing new was the format it was. Otherwise, the
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: only way the show would have gotten made is if
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: it had a revolutionary or you know, at least unique
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: for the time gimmick. Otherwise it's a very boring and
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: cliche action story.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And I love. In the GQ interview with Jack Bauer,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: he says, well, I think my story is not finished
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: and that maybe the next season should just involve them
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: rescuing me from like China or wherever I ended up
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, it does sound very much
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: like the United States to intervene in China on your
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: behalf and not the behalf of the millions of Muslims
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: who's been thrown in re education camps. Yeah, like so yeah,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe that is how twenty four comes back with
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: us completely ignoring an entire tragedy, like we should go
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: into Ukraine and just extract Jack Bauer. Sure, and like
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: deal with nothing else like blinders on, just get Jack Bauer.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I as a devout twenty four fan for years and years,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: by like season four, if you look into it, there's
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: a big chorus of people online who by like season
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: four were like, kill Jack Bauer. Yeah, that is how
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: you fix this show. Kill Jack Bauer. And it always
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: seemed like it was gonna happen, and it never happened. Yeah,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: And that would have, I think restored a little respectability
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: for this show if they took that turn, because when
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: those military people showed up, they were like, you know
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: how you fix this show show torture backfiring.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I like that note. It's a good that
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: is just a good creative note. More than more than
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: anything else, like talk, they just could it was just
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: their response is so funny because they just can't even
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: conceive of any narrative that could follow from that, even
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: though it opens up so many new narrative spaces. Yeah,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: but like they are interested in, you know, actually being creative. Yeah,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Like it's funny that that would, like that kind of
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: a sentiment would pop up starting like around season four,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: because like that's around when Lost is out and kind
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: of up in the game as far as narrative interestingness, and.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: So you probably did have a lot to do with it.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were competitors in many ways.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: And also George Bush. I mean, I guess just because
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: of my age, George Bush is the person who I
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: don't think radicalized me is the right word. But no,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: but George Bush is the reason I got into politics.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Like the two thousand election, I was like, well, that's
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: not how that was supposed to go at all, And
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: then everything followed from there. But by like when twenty
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: four premiered, nine to eleven had just happened, and I
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: was like, all right, well, it sucks how George Bush
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: took power, but he's hopefully going to deal with this
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: properly as any respectable American president should. Sure, and So
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: I liked twenty four that first season, but my enjoyment
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: of it waned as my understanding of what the Bush
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: administration was doing totally. It just became a thing, like
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: I stuck with it to the end, but it became
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: like The Walking Dead, where eventually I was just like
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: hate watching it because it made me so mad. But
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: twenty four made me mad in like a global way,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: like I just hate the I hate the writing on
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: the Walking Day, right, twenty four was ruining the world. Yeah,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: and eventually, yeah, it's just a commercial for torture.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that seemed to be the That was
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: the vibe that I got from my very basic overview
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: watch that I did over the last day of I
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: watched a couple seasons like episodes throughout the series, Like
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: I watched the first season premiere, in the second season premiere,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: and I watched a recap of every season, like a
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: little three minute recap per season. And then we also
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: watched the quote unquote movie twenty four Redemption.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, speaking recaps, that is our
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: next episode, our bonus episode. We're gonna dive into a
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: really interesting moment in twenty four history. It's a TV
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: movie called twenty four Redemption, And what's interesting about it
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: is they're not that far removed from winning an Emmy
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: for Best Primetime Drama. But also they're at the point
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: where people are like, this show's stupid, Like where this
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: isn't how the world thinks about terrorism anymore. This is
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: irresponsible and dumb. Obama is about to get elected. What
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: are you doing? And they're like, all right, what if
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Jack Bauer starts killing black people next? Yeah, well, would
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: you like that better.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: It also seemed like as it got closer to a
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Democrat being elected, even if they didn't know it was
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: going to be Obama at the time, the show started
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: to lean a lot harder into elements within the federal
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: government are like the high levels of the federal government
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: are the bad guys, like the a cabal you might say,
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: among high ranking government officials up to the White House,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: up to presidency and vice presidency are maybe the biggest
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: danger that starts to become a very much bigger elements
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: towards two thousand and seven, the stage, I know, weird.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know why that might be.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, we should investigate that further. I
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: wonder what the background of the people who made the
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: show is.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I know. Yeah, yeah, let's look at Joel. So now
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: nothing comes.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Up weird, interesting anything. Yeah. I remember watching twenty four
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Redemption when it came out, and even then I was like, Okay,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: this is like twenty four but boring. I get it,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Like that's what this is. And then like the whole
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: series followed. The season seven follows from twenty four Redemption.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: But it's yeah, it's an interesting point in that show's
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: history where they were really struggling for a reason to
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: still exist. Yeah, and I feel like they I feel
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: like they threw a knuckleball where they were like, oh, okay,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: but this year, Jack Bower's protecting black children, right, and
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: it's like, no, Jack Bowers mowing down Africans with a
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: saving saving them is doing and he's saving fourteen children
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: while millions are going to perish, for sure. But yeah,
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: let's check out season seven four.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: It's also interesting. I did want to talk about the
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Atlantic piece that was like a retrospective that you that
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you sent where it talks about twenty four as being
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: the most influential TV drama of all time.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: It's nuts because.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: It says there isn't even a close second, which is insane.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: And then later on in the article it says no
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: other drama series has even tried to tell a story
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: in real time, makes it seem like maybe it wasn't
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: like the most influential series in television history, because you
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: know what, show had a lot of people trying to
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: imitate its exact formula Lost. There were a fucking billion
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: lost ripoffs, And they're like, I also can't think of
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: another real time show because it is a bad idea.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: The problem is calling it the most influential show in
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: history is like calling Kirk Kobaine's suicide the most influential
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: suicide in history because there were lots of copycats. Yeah,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: but that's not good. And the people who were influenced
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: by twenty four were the people who were out fucking
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: torturing people exactly, Like, that's not the kind of influence
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: you want from a fucking movie. Yeah, Last just made
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: people make their shows weird. Yeah, it made soldiers gouge
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: people's jugular veins out.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Lost, revived interest in genre elements in TV soap operas.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: That's what I think.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: That article even kind of throws Lost under the bus
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: at what it does.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: It does at one point, but more than that, I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: have to highlight this quote. I am this is one
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of the craziest things. I want to point out. We
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: have to give a credit to Hampton Stevens, a contributing
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: writer to The Atlantic in twenty ten, wrote this paragraph.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: From day one, pun intended, twenty four has had impeccable casting,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: with a litany of hyper talented guest stars, including Dennis Hopper,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Powers Booth, James Cronwell and Neil Kapoor, John Voyd and
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: kurtwood Smith. And we can't forget Dennis Haysbert, yet another
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: example of the show's stunning cultural reach. Haysbert's charismatic, morally
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: unimpeachable President David Palmer helped the American people get comfortable
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: with an African American as President of the United States.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: If there had never been a twenty four, it is
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: entirely pop that Barack Obama might not have been elected,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: and irony surely not lost on the show's staunchly conservative creators.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: That is amazing. Yeah, twenty four, twenty four did it.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: That's what got Obama elected. Thanks it's twenty four for
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: winning the war on Terror and getting Obama elected.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: If it's all him.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: Wow, article in particular is nuts. There's also a part
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: where like I'm gonna paraphrase, but he's just straight up like, yeah,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: people were mad about all the torture, but how about
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: that cinematography? Am I right? Right? Like it looks so good?
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: And it's yeah, like he literally says the cinematography is
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: lost in the debate about the torture, and it's like
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: because that like you don't get to go, but it
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: looks so good.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: It looks great. Yeah. And also the cinematography looks like
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Nash Bridges with shaky cam.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like a Fox TV show.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: It looked terrible.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I don't know. I feel like I should
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: be canceled for watching as much twenty four as I did.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Like, no, that is the thing, yeah about the Bush
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: administration though, that's the thing.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it was like we also can't ignore the
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: fact it was like the biggest show on television, right, Yeah,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: this was pre streaming. There weren't as many options like
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: we've been talking about. It was really kind of the
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: dawn of when people were like, oh, TV shows can
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: be something different totally, and then it took like six
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: months for us to be like, Okay, well it shouldn't be.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: That, but no, yeah we should make something interest like yeah.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Cool idea, but you turned the corner you shouldn't have turned.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: And then from there like Breaking Bad and all the
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: Wire and all.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: This other stuff. Well yeah, this is all pre the
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: expansion of cable as a destiny.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: The Sopranos was just beginning the year before, and again
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: they really.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Do slip in that first season kind of under the radar, sure,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: because it's not about Muslim terrorists. It's about Sloboda Melosovich's
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: boys right coming to kidnap Jack Bauer's daughter, and it's like, well,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: I don't give a shit if that happens.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Right, it could very easily have been a die hard
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: TV show, Like it's very similar vibe take on, like
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole die hard to die hard with
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: a vengeance thing, Like it has a vibe like that,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: just poorly done.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: It's interesting that we're covering this this week because also
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: this week on the un Pops Network, on one of
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: the bonus podcasts we run, which is called Pod six,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: a podcast about the films of Spike Lee, we're talking
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: about the twenty fifth Hour. Yeesh. If you read up
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: on the twenty fifth Hour. The things people say about
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: it now is mainly what a grete nine to eleven movie? Yeah,
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: because it was being filmed when nine eleven happened, just
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: like twenty four and those two projects take very divergent
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: paths when it comes to nine to eleven because Spike
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Lee had this whole script that had been written before
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: he got it. It was based on a book, and
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: then nine to eleven happens, and he's filming a movie
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: based in New York and he's like, WHOA, how do
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I handle this? Do I act like it never happened?
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Do I exploit it? And he handles it so tastefully.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I really loved that movie. I haven't I've been
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: wanting to rewatch it.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: He handles nine to eleven really well in prime movie, Like, yeah,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Spike Lee, he's from New York. Yeah, of course he
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: did a great job with it, and people fucking love
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: that movie for it. This is the same thing, but
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: in the opposite direction, right, Yeah, nine to eleven happened
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: while they were making this movie, and they were like,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: all right, what do we do next? I got it?
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: How about we exploit nine to eleven for the benefit
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: of the American government and their desire to torture Muslims
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: in the Middle East.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Our monetary benefit and emotional catharsis in a very bad way.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this this show. I hope there comes a point
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: in American history where we look back on this show
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: and we're like, we should be ashamed, Like yeah, like
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: what were we thinking allowing this? And I don't know
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: that we're gonna get to that point, But no, twenty five,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: I mean bad. It was legitimately bad for the world,
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: and I hate that I watched it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: It really is and it's not good. Also, it's like
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: not good exactly, like especially like holding, I can understand
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: if you were at the time, you know, entrenched in
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: the Bush era and also the television landscape of the time.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I can understand being a regular viewer of this, even
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: though even at the time I found it repulsive just
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: from what little that I had seen of it.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Here's what it is if you and I think a
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: lot of people were able to do this at the time.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: If you remove the impact it's having on the world
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: from the equation, it plays like a horror movie where
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: those torture scenes are the kills right, and Jack Bauer
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: is Michael Myers or Jacobs, And instead of him slamming
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: a person filled sleeping bag into a tree, he's shooting
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: a guy's wife and the knee and you're like, holy shit,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: did you see what he did? And that is what
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: it was if you get deep enough into it, it
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: was also it's all stupid. And then sometimes he'll bite
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: a guy in the neck and you're like, oh, I
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: didn't know how he was gonna escape. That makes sense,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: he didn't have any other options, like and not the.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Harp on these sorts of things, because but like the
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: whole thing about the torture, Like in one of the
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: episodes that I watched, he like walks into a room
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: and he is like, uh, he like I think he
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: shoots somebody and he's like, I'm gonna keep hurting you
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: until you tell me the right answer, like until you
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: tell me, uh something I can use, and then he
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: hurts him and then the guy is like that's it.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: I've told you everything I know and he's like you
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: have uh. He's like, you have no more useful information
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: for me, and then kills him and it's like so
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: so let's look at this just from a just like
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: a step back from like the emotions of either side,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: and look at this from a tactical standpoint. We're saying,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: we're going to hurt you until you tell us everything
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: that you know, and then we're still gonna kill you
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: after you have told us all of the like, then
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: where is the actual incentive for someone to be honest
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: with you?
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: And I know this might seem like a weird angle
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: to suggest, but what if the terrorists are watching this
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: sause like we know how other countries take American media,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: Like I get you, there were Muslim country seeing this
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: and being like oh, yeah, oh so this is how
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: it's going to work, Like yeah, if I tell you
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: what you want to know, you're still going to kill me, Well,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: then I'm just not going to tell you. Like and
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: this it was like propaganda on both sides that like, yeah,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: was kind of counterproductive on both sides. Like if you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: happen to be a person who is going to be
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: interrogated and watch this, you'd be like, all right, well,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm just gonna get murdered as quickly as possible.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Well, and it turns out that that's something that the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: experts in that meeting talk about as being like, this
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: is just what happened, you know, think about think about
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: what our idealized version of the America, Like this happens
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: in the episode that we're going to talk about. But like,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: whenever we have a story about an American being tortured
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: for information, the heroic American would always rather take whatever
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: punishment you can give and will never break because their
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: resolve is so strong that they could never be convinced
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: by torture. But we're just saying that that's not gonna
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: happen the other way. I mean, clearly it will. That's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: human nature, especially if you're entrenched in an ideology. Punishment
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: is not gonna it's just gonna reinforce it.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: And especially if you're talking about fundamentaliss Yeah right, they
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: will absolutely die for their religion. So being like I'm
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: gonna murder you, yeah, like, And there's so many examples
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: of actual torture where the people in question were like, yeah,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: I told them what they wanted to know, so they
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: stopped torturing me, but I wasn't telling the truth. Of course,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: ended up being shitty information that just probably set everything
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: back even more but you know they stopped. I mean,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: even bamboo shoots up my dick hole.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing that you know. Zero Dark thirty,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: which is a film that has its own problems in
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: many ways, but one of its biggest strengths is that
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: it dramatizes that part of torture where it's almost like,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: not only do you get bad information from the person
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: that you tortured, if you get anything at all, but
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: then that bad information can cause you to waste time
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: and resources tracking down a false lead that is just
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: going to waste everyone's time and could lead to casualties
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Kill Jack Bauer. God, please twenty four back for a
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: three minute TikTok video. Jack Bauer is killed for his
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: crimes and then, oh my god, I could deal with that.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: That would be Yeah, I'd be into it.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: But beyond that, stop it. The time has passed. We
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: cannot bring back Jack Bauer in twenty twenty two. Don't
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: be fucking silly. I mean, the bright side is no
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: one would watch it, Like I don't remember the last
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: time I watched the Fox Show.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I would say the biggest problem to bringing back
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: twenty four in the modern television landscape is that literally
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: the only reason the show was made is because a
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: season order of television was twenty four episodes, and that
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: is not the case anymore. They would only get twelve
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: or maybe thirteen episodes, and then you're messed, like, that's
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: what redemption and that's messing with your fundamental premise.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Hear me out, six four hour episodes, thank you. I
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: would like that light. No, Olivia and I are going
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: to write that.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I actually, now that I think about it, if you
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: did twelve movie length episodes, I'm not even kidding, like
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: that might be what they would pitch.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's like, that's what a lot of these
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: shows are now. That venting Anna show is an hour
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: and a half episodes, right, and that would be film franchise.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maniacs, and that would equal twenty four forty one
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: minute episodes.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: But also, don't do that.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: No bad, bad, that bad.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Just kill Jack Bauer. I think my idea we have
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: written the final season of twenty four. It's three minutes long.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Jack Bauer is murdered for his crimes.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: I do sorry, I do think Disney owns Jack Bauer.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: It's one of the many bizarre things that Disney now
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: owns is Jack Bauer. Oh no, so I think that's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: gonna prevent it. I don't think Disney's gonna want to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: make twenty four.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: There are active talks since late twenty twenty one about
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: bringing twenty four back.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, I've been wrong about lots of stuff,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: so maybe they will. But we'll see, we'll see if
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: it goes through.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends on who we invade next. Like, I'm
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: surprised I twenty four in Venezuela. Yeah, try to make
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: that work because there was that Jack Ryan series in
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Venezuelan and it's like, right, I remember that we thought
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: we were gonna be a while Venezuela by now, huh.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: That was crazy. And yeah, I guess the next one
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: would be Jack Bauer in Ukraine or Russia. They did
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: Russia already once.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I think, yes, yeah, he's been he's been all over
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: the place.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, he's a world spanning guy.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good place to end this episode.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: We're all absolutely, we're all up in arms about twenty
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: four coming back. Here's hoping it doesn't. No, it was
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: just to drive home the fact that it shouldn't. On
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: next week's bonus episode, we're just gonna recap the soul
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: attempt to make a twenty four movie. Yes, which was
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: twenty four Redemption. It's a television movie that was the
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: prequel to season seven of twenty four. Yeah, and it's
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: not good. It's bad, No, bad, not good.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: This was a very bad episode of television. I would
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: say two leisos.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: The podcast about it will be very fun.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: No, it'll be great.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Promise you that. Until then, do we have anything to
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: plug before we get out of here, Olivia? How about you?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Uh? You can find me on Twitter and letterbox to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: high their hidar. Oh, I guess I should log twenty
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: four Redemption. I hadn't even I don't know why you wouldn't.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: It's a TV movie, So I guess I will. So
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: we'll at one star. I would say.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: Bad and uh, you can follow me on Twitter and
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Instagram at Adam Todd Brown. That's Todd with one D.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: And I think that's it for now. Let's get the
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: fuck out of here, Olivia, say goodbye bye, goodbye everybody.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: We love you. The statut