Latest / Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy / 416 | CCPT Mythbusters: Kids Are Manipulative

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416 | CCPT Mythbusters: Kids Are Manipulative · Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
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Hi,
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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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The Kid Counselor.
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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
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a master class in child-centered play therapy
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and practical support and application for your
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work with children and their families.
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Today's episode,
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we are
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doing our second to last myth.
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This has actually been,
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I wanna give a huge shout out and high five to y'all.
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This MythBusters series has been
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one of the most highly downloaded
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segments of the podcast ever.
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So,
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I really deeply appreciate y'all hanging out with me for this MythBusters series.
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And
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whenever I come up with series,
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I,
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I'm always hopeful that they will be helpful and beneficial and well received and
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I'm just grateful that this has meant a lot to y'all and that you've really
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been listening to these episodes and,
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and trying to understand
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how we can kind of debunk some of the things that people believe about our model.
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So,
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just a huge thank you to start with.
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Second of all,
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please check the show notes.
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As always,
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there's so much going on.
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We've got meetups,
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we've got live events.
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The New Jersey registration is open.
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So,
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for those of you that have been waiting to
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check out the Jersey event,
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On October 17th.
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Registration is now open.
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You can get early bird pricing for that.
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You can still get early bird pricing for Indiana.
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And then we've got meetups in Seattle and Denver and,
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oh,
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I don't know,
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just lots of stuff.
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So anyway,
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check out the show notes.
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That's where you can find everything.
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All right,
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let's dive into the myth that kids
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manipulate.
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If I had $1 for every time
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I've heard an adult
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slash a parent of a child,
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say,
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well,
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they're just so manipulative.
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I would be a much richer person than I am right now.
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I'd have so much money.
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All right,
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this is the issue
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that
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adulthood bias gets in the way.
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And we
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don't understand children.
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And then we try to make sense of their behavior through adult constructs.
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And when an adult
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acts in certain ways,
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we can label it manipulation.
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So,
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therefore,
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in,
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I think most people's minds,
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the rational conclusion is,
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well,
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that's just manipulation through and through.
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It is a myth
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at the deepest level,
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and I want to spend some time talking through it because kids are not manipulative.
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They can't be.
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And lots of parents do not like
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that statement.
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When I say
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children cannot be manipulative,
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they do not appreciate that because they've explained behavior away.
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In those terms,
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well,
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my child is just so manipulative.
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If you live by that truth,
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and I'm air quoting truth,
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then obviously it's going to be very difficult to
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hear that kids are not in fact manipulative.
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So I want to make sure that we kind
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of process this together and we have some dialogue points
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for if an adult says that about a child.
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So,
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let's start with
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kids aren't rational.
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And here we are again.
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It's,
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it's
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kids aren't rational and relationships are the most important thing.
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These,
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these are the two phrases that I say probably in my sleep at this point.
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We're back to kids aren't rational.
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Why?
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Because manipulation
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is cognitive.
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Manipulation
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is thinking through the outcome that you want.
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And
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figuring out what you're going to do or say
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or not do or not say.
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Sometimes it's
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Manipulation by commission.
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Sometimes it's manipulation by omission,
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but it's manipulation nonetheless.
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So,
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you realize,
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OK,
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I want a specific thing.
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I want to control this.
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I wanna get a certain outcome.
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I am going to,
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no matter what it takes,
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get what I want.
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And therefore,
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a thought process begins
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of how am I going to do this?
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Well,
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I'm going to guilt you.
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I'm going to shame you.
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I'm going to
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make you scared of me.
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I'm going to threaten you.
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I'm going to negotiate.
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OK,
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there's all kinds of ways that this would happen,
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but this is all
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predicated on the notion that you would have to be rational,
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cognitive,
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and logical to do it.
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You would be using your brain to do so.
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children don't have any of those capacities.
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They are solely experiential and emotional.
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So when
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children behave
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in ways that are perceived as manipulative,
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It's not manipulation,
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it's conditioning.
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So let's dive into this.
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I had to draw these conclusions because I got so tired
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of parents and other adults telling me how manipulative these kids were,
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and it just didn't feel right to me.
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I'm not even talking about developmentally inaccurate,
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not understanding age-appropriate behavior,
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whatever.
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I'm not even talking about that.
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I'm saying
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it didn't sit
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when an adult would look at me and say,
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well,
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my daughter's just so manipulative.
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I just,
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it gave me
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this gross,
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icky feeling and I was like,
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I don't buy it.
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I don't believe it.
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I don't even know your kid because most of
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the time this happens in an initial parent consult.
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So I haven't even met the child yet
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and parents are
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giving me all of these scenarios and all these concerns
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and,
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you know,
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yes,
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my child's just so manipulative and it's like,
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I know I can't really argue because I don't even know your kid,
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but
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I highly doubt it.
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And I kept trying to figure out why,
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and so I really did a lot of
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pondering,
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ruminating on this,
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and this is where I landed with all of this.
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When kids are experiential and emotional.
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They are constantly trying to get their emotions
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met.
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They're constantly trying to experience the things that they want.
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And it happens over experiences
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through conditioning.
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So let's walk through
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what that might look like.
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The very first time
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a child is told no,
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they cannot have the toy.
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That is so intentionally and thoughtfully placed right
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at the checkout in the grocery store.
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And they're told,
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no,
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they can't have it,
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or they can't have the candy bar that is
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so thoughtfully and purposefully placed right by the checkout
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or whatever it is,
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the gum,
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the
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little
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lollipop with the swirls.
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All the very
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alluring
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things that they know kids are going to not be able to say no to.
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The very first time they're told no.
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They genuinely
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were upset.
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And
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here's another adulthood bias moment,
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y'all.
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We have to help parents understand.
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We have to make sure that we're aware of this ourselves as well.
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What seems insignificant and trivial to us is the polar opposite to a child.
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You know how many times a parent says,
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it is not a big deal.
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Oh,
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you'll be fine.
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Stop crying,
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that is not something that you need to be crying about.
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There's this notion that
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that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of
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things because you're rational as an adult.
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That's adulthood bias.
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To that child in that moment who really wants that
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Hot Wheels car or whatever,
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oh my,
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OK,
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hold on.
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Sorry,
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sorry,
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sorry.
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Related aside,
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tiny
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slide little turn here.
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When we were in Japan,
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they have
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vending machines for literally everything.
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I can't even begin.
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If you've been to Japan,
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you know what I mean.
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If you don't,
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I,
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I can't even begin to explain to you the vending machine craze in Japan.
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Anything you could possibly want,
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there's a vending machine for it.
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Well,
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that said,
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we were walking around like an outdoor outlet mall a couple of days ago.
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And
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we're walking up from the parking lot
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and Kayne,
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our son,
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goes.
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What have we come to?
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No,
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he said,
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how bad has it gotten?
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That's what he said,
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how bad has it gotten?
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That we're selling Hot Wheels cars in a vending machine these days.
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And I'm not joking y'all.
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There was like the soda vending machine
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and then a Hot Wheels vending machine,
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individually packaged
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Hot Wheels.
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They're all hanging on little
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spokes,
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and you would go up and pay, didn't even look to see how much they were,
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but you would go up and you would pay for your
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Hot Wheels car and it would be dispensed like a vending machine
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at the outlet mall.
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And I was like,
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pretty bad,
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son.
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That,
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that's how bad it's gotten,
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pretty bad.
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And then Eric goes,
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come on,
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it's just like Japan,
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it's fine.
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It's just what they do in Japan,
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which is true.
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All right,
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so I'm coming back to the Hot Wheels car and the
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Publix checkout or at Publix is a southeastern grocery store,
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so you may not have Publix is where you are,
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but
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think of your local Publix,
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whatever that is.
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And,
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you know,
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you're
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talking about this kid who desperately falls in
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love with this little Hot Wheels car.
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And
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mom,
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dad,
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whoever's with them says no,
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not today.
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They're devastated
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They're crushed
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That is the absolute worst news they've ever gotten.
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Why?
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Because they live in their emotions
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and they're experiencing
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this huge moment
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of sadness and despair
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and disappointment
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and
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sometimes confusion.
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Why can't I just have it?
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It's only 2.99.
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I really wanna play with it.
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That's the coolest one I've ever seen.
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They have very valid reasons
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for desperately needing and wanting this Hot Wheels car in their mind.
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And when they don't get it,
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when the answer is no.
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They cry
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Understandably,
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developmentally appropriately,
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age appropriately,
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they get upset
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because that is the worst news they've ever gotten in their whole life,
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that they can't have that Hot Wheels car.
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So they are just beside themselves with emotion.
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And whether because it was embarrassing
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or because the parent
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is
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easily
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walked on,
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or to save face,
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or
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whatever the scenario is,
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as the child is crying,
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parent gives in.
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OK,
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you can have the car.
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What did that child learn?
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Not because they're rational,
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not because they're cognitive,
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not because they thought for one microsecond,
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they didn't think anything.
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They were truly sad.
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They were truly overwhelmed,
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got really emotional.
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But the conditioned learning was,
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oh,
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well,
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I cried,
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and then
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I got the Hot Wheels car.
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So the next time that happens,
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they're somewhere and they are begging for something and they're told no.
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It might be a genuine cry at the beginning,
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but it's also conditioned
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because
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they have been shown
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if you cry,
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there's a chance you're gonna get what you want.
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Well,
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see,
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here's what happens.
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You may have to cry a little louder the next time,
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or you may have to cry a little longer the next time,
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or you may have to be a little bit more emphatic about your displeasure,
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about not getting what you want,
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because
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the same level is not necessarily going to get you what you want,
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but if you up it a little bit,
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just
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elevate the intensity of smidge,
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someone might give in.
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And the more this happens,
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the more kids are conditioned.
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They're not manipulating anyone,
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but they're being conditioned.
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Well,
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you just have to up the ante.
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Just raise the bar,
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throw some more antics in there,
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flail a little bit,
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kick the ground,
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run down the aisle,
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and embarrass Mom.
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Whatever you have to do.
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But guess what?
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Experientially and emotionally,
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it all works out OK because I got what I wanted in the end.
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It's conditioning,
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y'all.
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So,
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what happens is parents don't even realize
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their part in this.
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And they,
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they see.
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Well,
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they literally just kick and scream and bite and
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yell and flail and throw themselves all over the place
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and they make my life absolutely miserable until I give in,
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they're manipulating me.
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They've been conditioned
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That if they don't give in,
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you will,
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and then they get what they want.
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Kids are constantly trying to
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get the emotions
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that they prefer.
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I wanna be happy.
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I wanna be excited.
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I wanna be glad.
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I wanna have the thing that I want.
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Therefore,
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I'm going to do whatever it takes to get there,
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experientially and emotionally driven.
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So when we understand that,
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when that lens
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is the lens through which we're looking at behavior.
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It becomes very clear
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there is nothing rational or logical about
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this which is required for manipulation.
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And really what the child has learned is.
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I don't want to give in because this outcome is less favorable,
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so if I keep at it.
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And I keep bumping everything up.
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I at least have a chance.
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It's not a guarantee,
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but I at least have a chance.
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That I'm going to
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emotionally and experientially
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be content with the outcome.
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And interestingly,
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what happens over time is the people
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in a child's life that has been conditioned to behave this way.
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They start to give in quicker and quicker
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because they know that
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they're trying to avoid the catastrophic
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meltdown that's about to come.
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So,
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the second the child starts to pitch a fit,
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the second the child starts to cry,
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the second the child does anything,
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OK,
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OK,
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OK,
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here.
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And they feel that they're being manipulated because that wasn't what they wanted.
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They didn't want to give in.
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Therefore,
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quote my child manipulated me.
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You gave in
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to avoid the outcome.
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That you didn't want.
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Interestingly,
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your child didn't give in
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because they were trying to avoid the outcome that they didn't want.
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Y'all see this?
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It's a really interesting dynamic.
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So,
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we have to help parents understand this.
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And we certainly do not accept when a
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parent tells us that their child is manipulative.
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We
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stopped them right there.
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I don't mean to interrupt you,
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and I know a lot of parents feel that way,
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but your child's incapable of manipulating you.
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You just throw it out there
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because
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what do we understand about kids?
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They behave in self-enhancing ways.
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When they have someone who unconditionally accepts them
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and who preserves relationship.
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When an adult starts to resent the kid
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for how manipulative they are perceived to be.
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They don't preserve relationship.
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They don't unconditionally accept them.
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Therefore,
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the child behaves in more self-defeating ways.
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It's a vicious cycle.
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And CCPT is the antidote to all of it.
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So not only are we going to understand
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kids differently and interact with children differently,
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we're going to encourage other adults to do the same.
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Which is why we're busting the myth that kids are manipulative,
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so.
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Hope that gives you some things to ponder
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and or to change the way that you handle those conversations because I promise you,
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someone is going to tell you,
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if they haven't already,
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I,
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I assure you someone is going to tell you how manipulative a child is.
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And this is your opportunity to,
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with knowledge comes responsibility.
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And you share what you know
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that they're not,
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they're not even capable of it.
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Here's what it actually is.
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Here's how CCPT is going to
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help.
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And then there's hope.
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That,
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that's really what a parent's looking for.
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When they tell you how manipulative their kid is,
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it's not because they're trying to be mean.
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They don't know any differently.
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They don't know what they don't know.
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But what they really want is,
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I just don't wanna have this kind of relationship.
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I don't wanna have a kid that behaves this way.
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So then they have hope that it's going to get better,
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which is the outcome that everyone's looking forward to.
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All right y'all,
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love you.
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Hope you have a great week.
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Thanks for hanging out with me.
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We'll talk again soon.
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Bye.
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Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
16:47
For more episodes and resources,
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please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.