Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Let’s Talk Puberty: Supporting our kids through the cringe

Transcript

Let’s Talk Puberty: Supporting our kids through the cringe · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

0:01
Speaker 1: Okay, So how old are you?
0:03
Speaker 2: You know, I'm a loving And what does the word
0:08
Speaker 2: puberty mean to you?
0:09
Speaker 3: Oh? I did you pretty class last year and the
0:14
Speaker 3: year before. I'm probably gonna do it the end. It
0:18
Speaker 3: was interesting. I mean they're clearly teaching us because soon
0:24
Speaker 3: it's going to start happening and our body's going to
0:27
Speaker 3: start changing, preparing for us to have kids. And I
0:33
Speaker 3: mean I want to have kids, but like I don't
0:38
Speaker 3: know if I'm ready, Like I mean, I'm clearly not ready, but.
0:41
Speaker 4: Like ready to have kids? Are ready for your body
0:44
Speaker 4: to change?
0:44
Speaker 3: Ready for my body to change? I kind of I
0:47
Speaker 3: like my body. I like not having hair on my chest.
0:52
Speaker 5: How about you?
0:53
Speaker 4: At age nine?
0:54
Speaker 6: Does the idea of puberty seem really scary or kind
0:58
Speaker 6: of cool?
0:59
Speaker 3: Girls?
1:00
Speaker 4: What's gross about it?
1:01
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of gross that you'll start getting
1:05
Speaker 3: like pimples everywhere, your hands get all oilin sweaty, and
1:09
Speaker 3: your armpits get all snowy, moms said, called sweat dream.
1:19
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh.
1:24
Speaker 5: This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. Most of us
1:29
Speaker 5: have probably not forgotten our journeys through puberty. Very few
1:33
Speaker 5: of us get through it without some significant awkwardness. Your
1:37
Speaker 5: body's changing.
1:38
Speaker 1: Weird fluids start.
1:39
Speaker 5: Coming out sometimes when you least expect them, and everything
1:42
Speaker 5: just seems a little off. And whether you're anticipating it,
1:47
Speaker 5: like the kids my producer tomorrow is interviewed, or you're
1:50
Speaker 5: going through it, it's a lot.
1:53
Speaker 1: As my kids have.
1:54
Speaker 5: Gotten older, one of the most daunting things about parenting
1:57
Speaker 5: is realizing that I am going to have to parent
2:00
Speaker 5: through that exact faith. And sure, some things have gotten better.
2:06
Speaker 5: When I was twelve, my mom took me to a
2:08
Speaker 5: bra store for my first bra where an older woman
2:10
Speaker 5: measured my boobs, in an experience that I hope to
2:13
Speaker 5: never repeat and I will definitely never forget. When my
2:17
Speaker 5: own daughter was that age, I was able to purchase
2:19
Speaker 5: items on Amazon, which was decidedly better for everyone involved.
2:23
Speaker 5: So some things have gotten easier, but something seem like
2:25
Speaker 5: I've gotten a lot harder. Puberty seems like it's happening sooner.
2:30
Speaker 5: There are more complicated questions around social media, around when
2:34
Speaker 5: and what our kids are exposed to. And then there
2:38
Speaker 5: are a lot of things that I never figured out
2:41
Speaker 5: when I was going through puberty that I'd like to
2:43
Speaker 5: understand better, like how much easier is it when you
2:46
Speaker 5: can have an honest relationship with your parents and now
2:49
Speaker 5: is a parent with your kids. That part has never changed.
2:53
Speaker 5: All of this is why I'm so excited about today's guests,
2:55
Speaker 5: doctor Kara Natterson, a pediatrician and author, and author Vanessa
3:00
Speaker 5: Kroll Bennett, and their new book This Is So Awkward,
3:04
Speaker 5: a title which reflects everyone's feelings about puberty. The book
3:07
Speaker 5: is a combination of science and perspectives. It's written for
3:10
Speaker 5: parents who want to understand modern puberty and puberty in general.
3:15
Speaker 5: We talk about the importance of setting limits, both for
3:17
Speaker 5: your mental health and for theirs, which might sound familiar
3:20
Speaker 5: to those of you parenting little kids. And we talk
3:24
Speaker 5: about when it's a good idea to talk to your
3:26
Speaker 5: kids always, and when to zip it and listen, which
3:30
Speaker 5: might also be always. It doesn't add up, but neither
3:34
Speaker 5: does puberty, which is why these conversations are certainly reassuring
3:37
Speaker 5: to me and I hope to you too. After the break,
3:41
Speaker 5: Vanessa and Kara join me to break out the big
3:43
Speaker 5: raisors and the speed stick. Vanessa, Kara, I'm very happy
3:55
Speaker 5: you're here. Could you please introduce yourselves?
3:59
Speaker 1: I will go for My name is Vanessa Bennett, I
4:02
Speaker 1: live in the state of New York. I have four children.
4:05
Speaker 1: I talk about puberty all day, every day, and that's
4:09
Speaker 1: I just talk a lot in general.
4:11
Speaker 5: Amazing Kia.
4:13
Speaker 6: My name is Kara Natterson. I'm a pediatrician turned puberty expert.
4:18
Speaker 6: I suppose I don't love the word expert, but my
4:23
Speaker 6: whole life is dedicated to flipping puberty positive with the
4:28
Speaker 6: most upbeat and verbose and wise person. I know Vanessa
4:33
Speaker 6: Bennett and uh and yeah. And I've written a bunch
4:37
Speaker 6: of books and I like to create content mostly from
4:41
Speaker 6: the mouths of the tweens and teens who we are
4:45
Speaker 6: trying to represent in the world.
4:47
Speaker 1: Do I get a do over? Because Car did? Like
4:50
Speaker 1: cars was so great?
4:52
Speaker 5: So thanks, Kara. We are here to talk about your
4:55
Speaker 5: newish book, which is called This Is So Awkward, which
4:59
Speaker 5: is I would say, guide for parents through puberty. And
5:02
Speaker 5: I love it. I mean, I write mostly about little kids.
5:05
Speaker 5: I do not envy you working with this age. I
5:09
Speaker 5: parent this age and it's extremely difficult, and I'm grateful
5:13
Speaker 5: that your book is there, and I want to talk
5:15
Speaker 5: about some of the details, but I actually want to
5:17
Speaker 5: start by telling you what happened when I gave it
5:19
Speaker 5: to my spouse, so I do not usually make him
5:21
Speaker 5: read books because he is an extremely slow reader. And
5:26
Speaker 5: also before your book, the last thing he read was
5:29
Speaker 5: a history of the German Central Bank and took him
5:32
Speaker 5: like eight months, and he would tell me these facts.
5:33
Speaker 5: He'd be like, did you know? And then I'd be like,
5:35
Speaker 5: I didn't know, and I'm I'm not using that information now.
5:40
Speaker 5: But I made him read the book and at some
5:42
Speaker 5: point he said, oh, I get it. The core advice
5:44
Speaker 5: in this book is have a good relationship with your
5:46
Speaker 5: kids so they will talk to you, which I actually
5:48
Speaker 5: thought was pretty insightful. So I like, do you think
5:51
Speaker 5: that that's that he's right about that?
5:53
Speaker 2: Yeah?
5:54
Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately I think he is right. I mean
5:57
Speaker 1: there's one hundred thousand other words in the book book
6:00
Speaker 1: that get at you know, a variety of biology and
6:03
Speaker 1: physiology and data and research. But like, really, the best
6:09
Speaker 1: way to keep kids healthy and safe is to be
6:13
Speaker 1: in conversation with them, have lines of communication with them,
6:16
Speaker 1: and that means giving them good, reliable information. I mean,
6:20
Speaker 1: that's part of it. It's not just like chatting, it's
6:24
Speaker 1: like giving them good information that can help inform their
6:28
Speaker 1: choices their life they're growing up.
6:30
Speaker 6: Yeah, and if you have a good relationship with them,
6:33
Speaker 6: that's a bonus. And that's the goal, and that's the hope, right,
6:36
Speaker 6: And we believe that the more honestly you speak with them,
6:39
Speaker 6: the better the relationship will be. But the part that
6:42
Speaker 6: he distilled down to about have a good relationship with
6:45
Speaker 6: them and communicate with them, those are it's kind of
6:47
Speaker 6: two separate thoughts, and it's communicate with them first, I think,
6:51
Speaker 6: and then the good relationship will follow, we hope.
6:55
Speaker 5: And when you say communicate, you mean communicate about these
6:57
Speaker 5: big things. You mean communicate a lot little things.
7:00
Speaker 6: Oh, Emily, we mean don't stop talking. We really do.
7:06
Speaker 6: I mean the whole concept of the talk that was
7:09
Speaker 6: what we grew up with. We are flipping that entirely
7:12
Speaker 6: on its head. We are not alone in this. Educators
7:15
Speaker 6: have been doing this for decades. Healthcare providers have been
7:18
Speaker 6: doing this for decades. It is many, many, many talks
7:21
Speaker 6: about many many, many different things, of all different lengths
7:24
Speaker 6: and intensities, at all different moments in time. So yeah,
7:28
Speaker 6: it's we're believers in over communication, as our children will
7:32
Speaker 6: tell you, And there's a gift to that.
7:35
Speaker 1: And it's also about listening and knowing when to shut
7:38
Speaker 1: your mouth. Like communication is often with the kids this
7:42
Speaker 1: age less. I mean, the talking is important or giving
7:45
Speaker 1: information in a variety of different ways, but it's a
7:49
Speaker 1: lot about just like being quiet, being present and being available,
7:53
Speaker 1: but being quiet and listening, and sometimes it's like zipping
7:58
Speaker 1: it in the most uncomfortable of ways.
8:01
Speaker 5: It is the most un compon I mean, I think
8:02
Speaker 5: that's that's part of this. The thing that I think
8:05
Speaker 5: many people find so hard is you you're in when
8:07
Speaker 5: your kid comes with a problem, like or like sometimes
8:11
Speaker 5: you just want to fix it. Like as soon as
8:12
Speaker 5: they got it out of their mouth, you're like, I
8:14
Speaker 5: got that one, that one happened. I can't I tell
8:16
Speaker 5: you what happened, and I'll fix it for you now.
8:19
Speaker 5: And they're like, halfway into this story, let me tap
8:21
Speaker 5: you about how to fix it. But actually that it's
8:24
Speaker 5: almost it's not what they're it's not what.
8:26
Speaker 6: They're looking No, no, they're not looking for a tactician, right,
8:30
Speaker 6: And that's I'm.
8:30
Speaker 5: Looking for a tactician that's very well put.
8:33
Speaker 6: That makes us feel so good because number one, we
8:36
Speaker 6: know exactly how to fix the problem, Like eighty percent
8:38
Speaker 6: of the time, right. And number two, we are so
8:42
Speaker 6: sure that even if we don't know how to fix
8:43
Speaker 6: the problem, just trying to fix the problem helps towards
8:47
Speaker 6: fixing the problem. And that's not what they're looking for.
8:51
Speaker 6: As Vanessa tells me all the time, sometimes they just
8:53
Speaker 6: want to dump on you. They want to dump and
8:56
Speaker 6: then they want to leave the room, and then they
8:58
Speaker 6: are good, they're fun.
9:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also I mean, it's like if we
9:03
Speaker 1: fix it for them, then they never learn how to
9:06
Speaker 1: fix it, and then they're like forty five and God willing,
9:10
Speaker 1: we're like ninety and we're still helping them solve the
9:13
Speaker 1: minutia of their day. And our whole job is to
9:17
Speaker 1: help them grow up. And in order to grow up,
9:20
Speaker 1: they got to fix their stuff, they got to handle
9:22
Speaker 1: their stuff, they got to live through the uncertainty. And
9:25
Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, we support them. Yeah, I mean,
9:28
Speaker 1: I will say, you know, do you want me to
9:31
Speaker 1: give you advice or do you just want me to
9:33
Speaker 1: sit here and listen? And those like you actually just
9:37
Speaker 1: did one, those like empathic murmurs. They're like, oh oh yeah,
9:43
Speaker 1: Like you get really good at those when you're raising adolescents,
9:47
Speaker 1: And it feels disingenuous. I know it does, but like
9:50
Speaker 1: it works. It does work, and they really appreciate it
9:56
Speaker 1: when we can kind of figure out when to just
9:58
Speaker 1: be there and back off and be supportive.
10:02
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very hard, but it's what's interesting is that
10:05
Speaker 5: I think that I complain about my partner trying to
10:09
Speaker 5: fix things like this is a really this is the
10:13
Speaker 5: opposite relationship I have with my partner where I'll be like,
10:15
Speaker 5: I actually I was just looking to complain. I wasn't
10:19
Speaker 5: looking for a tactic there. I just wanted to complain
10:22
Speaker 5: about it. But then when my kid does it, I'm like,
10:26
Speaker 5: just write into tactics.
10:28
Speaker 6: Right, I mean, isn't not just human nature?
10:30
Speaker 1: Though?
10:31
Speaker 5: That is just human nature? Okay, So I want to
10:34
Speaker 5: get into the details because actually, part of what's great
10:36
Speaker 5: about this book is it's really like science, biology based.
10:40
Speaker 5: You know that that's my love language, data science, and
10:42
Speaker 5: so it's it's awesome. And let's talk a little bit
10:46
Speaker 5: about the early puberty piece. So one of the things
10:50
Speaker 5: I hear people talking about, being concerned about, wondering about,
10:54
Speaker 5: is the idea that kids are starting puberty earlier than
10:57
Speaker 5: they used to.
10:58
Speaker 1: Is that true?
10:58
Speaker 5: How much earlier?
10:59
Speaker 6: And why, Oh my god, I'm so excited to get
11:02
Speaker 6: into data with you.
11:03
Speaker 1: Kara has the biggest smile on her face.
11:06
Speaker 6: She's like, this is like a dream.
11:08
Speaker 1: I'm living the dream right now. Okay.
11:11
Speaker 6: So the answer is yes and no. It has changed
11:15
Speaker 6: from generations ago. Over the last two three, four generations,
11:19
Speaker 6: it has certainly shifted. But the data that we lean
11:23
Speaker 6: on in our book and in every piece of teaching
11:27
Speaker 6: that we do is actually not new data. It is
11:31
Speaker 6: between nineteen ninety seven and twenty twelve is when all
11:34
Speaker 6: this data was really collected, And so we are looking
11:38
Speaker 6: at something that we're calling new that's really somewhere between
11:41
Speaker 6: fifteen and twenty five years old. But here's what that
11:44
Speaker 6: data showed. And can I give you like a super
11:47
Speaker 6: top line history lesson. It won't be the German banks,
11:50
Speaker 6: I promise, Okay. So in nineteen ninety seven, there was
11:55
Speaker 6: this nurse practitioner. Her name is Marcia Herman Giddens. She
11:59
Speaker 6: was practicing North Carolina, and she saw all of these
12:02
Speaker 6: girls coming through her clinic who were in puberty earlier
12:05
Speaker 6: than they were supposed to be and supposed to It
12:07
Speaker 6: was defined by a guy named James Tanner in the
12:10
Speaker 6: forties and fifties and sixties. He did this big study
12:12
Speaker 6: in London. He looked at pictures of kids who were
12:16
Speaker 6: living in orphanages post war and he determined when the
12:19
Speaker 6: onset of puberty was and it was supposed to be
12:21
Speaker 6: eleven for girls and eleven and a half for boys,
12:23
Speaker 6: according to Tanner. And that's kind of what it was
12:25
Speaker 6: until in ninety seven Herman Giddens publishes this study of
12:30
Speaker 6: seventeen thousand girls. It was funded by the AAP. Was
12:33
Speaker 6: the first big piece of data that showed no, no, no,
12:37
Speaker 6: things had moved back and instead of eleven, girls were
12:40
Speaker 6: entering puberty at ten and it was defined by breastbudding.
12:44
Speaker 6: And this is an important side note that we'll get to,
12:47
Speaker 6: I'm sure in a little bit. Now. Flash forward to
12:51
Speaker 6: two thousand and five when an undochronologist named Louise Greenspan
12:54
Speaker 6: joins a study that's going to confirm Marcia Herman Giddens's data.
13:00
Speaker 6: The doctors love to do that. They love to take
13:01
Speaker 6: a study that was novel and say is it to
13:03
Speaker 6: or is it not? And they study this cohort between
13:06
Speaker 6: two thousand and five and twenty ten, and what do
13:09
Speaker 6: they find? They find that low and behold, girls are
13:12
Speaker 6: entering puberty even earlier. And that's the data that we
13:16
Speaker 6: point to. It's green Spans data, and what it showed
13:19
Speaker 6: was the average age for entering puberty, and it was
13:22
Speaker 6: broken out by race, and the racial groupings are very limited.
13:27
Speaker 6: It's Caucasian or white, Black, and Hispanic is the language
13:32
Speaker 6: that they used, and it was the onset of puberty
13:36
Speaker 6: for girls was between eight and nine, and if you
13:40
Speaker 6: were black, it was on the younger side, and if
13:42
Speaker 6: you were Caucasian or white, it was on the later side.
13:45
Speaker 6: It was the nine and if you were Hispanic Latina,
13:48
Speaker 6: it was in the middle. No one looked at boys.
13:52
Speaker 6: Herman Giddens is like gardening. She's retired, she's having a
13:55
Speaker 6: great life. She's so frustrated by the fact that no
13:58
Speaker 6: one's looking at boys that in twenty twelve she pulls
14:00
Speaker 6: herself out of retirement does a small study of four
14:03
Speaker 6: thousand boys and she says, huh, boys are going through
14:06
Speaker 6: puberty early too, and for them, she documents it's between
14:10
Speaker 6: nine and ten when they're starting. That is measured by
14:13
Speaker 6: penile and testicular growth. And again she used the same
14:18
Speaker 6: racial groupings and found the same trends. So when we
14:22
Speaker 6: say puberty is starting earlier, this is precisely what we mean.
14:26
Speaker 6: We mean that the average age of breastbutting for girls
14:30
Speaker 6: in this country is now between eight and nine, and
14:32
Speaker 6: the average age of penile and testicular growth for boys
14:36
Speaker 6: is between nine and ten. But it's not going any faster.
14:41
Speaker 6: It is actually going slower.
14:43
Speaker 5: When you say going slower, you mean from that first
14:47
Speaker 5: moment to like what we consider the end.
14:50
Speaker 6: Yep, because when you're in it, okay, we like to
14:54
Speaker 6: use periods as a really healthy middle marker of like,
14:57
Speaker 6: how's puberty progressing?
14:58
Speaker 1: Right?
14:59
Speaker 6: And when you in it, you would think if we've
15:03
Speaker 6: rolled back the start time of entering puberty by two
15:06
Speaker 6: to three years, we should roll back the first period
15:09
Speaker 6: by two to three years. And lo and behold, that
15:11
Speaker 6: is not what has happened. We have rolled back the
15:14
Speaker 6: onset of the first period by two to three months.
15:17
Speaker 6: So the bottom line is that it starts earlier and
15:22
Speaker 6: it goes slower. It's like taffy. Do we understand why
15:30
Speaker 6: I really wanted the title of the book to be
15:31
Speaker 6: Puberty is like taffy? And no one was into that.
15:33
Speaker 1: Emily, I knew she was going to work that in
15:35
Speaker 1: in the first five minutes. It's like she can't help herself.
15:38
Speaker 5: That's a great title, thank you. So why has puberty
15:41
Speaker 5: become more like taffy?
15:44
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of theories and a variety of factors.
15:48
Speaker 1: There's not one single answer as to why. We do
15:52
Speaker 1: know that. And I'm going to use a word that
15:55
Speaker 1: I actually don't feel super great using, but I'm going
15:58
Speaker 1: to scientists and medical professionals use it. We do know
16:01
Speaker 1: that obesity, childhood obesity is a contributing factor to earlier
16:06
Speaker 1: on set of puberty in girls, not in boys. Boys.
16:12
Speaker 1: It delays it in boys because of peripheral fat conversion
16:16
Speaker 1: into estrogen. But yet we're hearing data that girls who
16:20
Speaker 1: are not obese are seeing earlier puberty, and so it's
16:24
Speaker 1: not necessarily tied. We know that the thousands and thousands
16:28
Speaker 1: of chemicals in our environment are affecting everything, including potentially
16:34
Speaker 1: earlier puberty and chronic stress. We know that chronic stress
16:40
Speaker 1: in kids can tip some into earlier puberty and for
16:44
Speaker 1: others actually cause their puberty to halt or not begin.
16:48
Speaker 1: So there are and there are other theories and other factors.
16:51
Speaker 1: It's not that one week last year when you didn't
16:54
Speaker 1: buy organic milk for your kids that cause them to
16:57
Speaker 1: go into puberty, right, or they'll like the non organic
17:02
Speaker 1: chicken that like they aid at the rest stop on
17:05
Speaker 1: the way to Grandma's house. Because people beat themselves up.
17:09
Speaker 1: It's a much larger, much bigger systemic issue.
17:12
Speaker 5: I mean, also, the endocrine system is not our best
17:16
Speaker 5: understood of the systems.
17:18
Speaker 1: Is my sense.
17:19
Speaker 6: You have to be so smart to be an under chronologist.
17:22
Speaker 6: I'm just saying, like the smartiest smartiest in med school.
17:26
Speaker 6: We're under chronologists. And Louise Greensman is an undercronologist, and
17:30
Speaker 6: she's amazing and what she swears she's I trained with her.
17:34
Speaker 6: She was my resident when I was an intern, and
17:35
Speaker 6: then she went on to become all famous and everything.
17:37
Speaker 6: And I'm like, every four six weeks, I'm like, hi, Louis,
17:41
Speaker 6: have another question. But she promises that while we have
17:45
Speaker 6: no answer, that puberty is not marching back a whole lot.
17:49
Speaker 6: Earlier she said we are not going to have kindergarteners
17:51
Speaker 6: in puberty. She believes we have hit a physiologic low
17:55
Speaker 6: with this, and in part it's because of this symphony
17:58
Speaker 6: of the endocrine system and all these different parts that
18:01
Speaker 6: have to talk.
18:02
Speaker 1: And the other thing, Emily. And this is actually a
18:04
Speaker 1: point I think you'd find super interesting, which is the
18:07
Speaker 1: relationship to zip codes. So kids living closer to kids
18:11
Speaker 1: living in poverty, closer to pollution, with food insecurity, with
18:16
Speaker 1: adults who have job in security, with family lives that
18:19
Speaker 1: are tumultuous. There's all sorts of factors about the stress,
18:24
Speaker 1: about the proximity to pollution that come together. So certain
18:29
Speaker 1: zip codes, kids in certain zip codes are more prone
18:31
Speaker 1: to be in earlier puberty.
18:33
Speaker 6: And can I add one more variable, antibiotics. So there's
18:38
Speaker 6: a lot of data. And this is Louise's new soapbox
18:41
Speaker 6: that I'm so eager for her to stand on and
18:44
Speaker 6: yell from the rafters. But on one of our podcasts
18:46
Speaker 6: she started talking about the impact of antibiotics, and it
18:50
Speaker 6: looks like there is a direct connection between antibiotic exposure
18:55
Speaker 6: and earlier puberty. But it's coming from two sources. Coming
19:00
Speaker 6: from over prescription of antibiotics directly to the kids, and
19:04
Speaker 6: it is coming from the animal supply, and it's probably
19:08
Speaker 6: the animal supply is probably the more significant driver. So
19:12
Speaker 6: Vanessa's right when you don't eat the organic chicken. You
19:15
Speaker 6: don't need to freak out. On the other hand, we
19:19
Speaker 6: really should be looking at this data and making a
19:22
Speaker 6: lot of noise because we need to be shifting the
19:25
Speaker 6: policies around antibiotic use in the food chain.
19:29
Speaker 5: One of the implications of this you talk some about
19:32
Speaker 5: in the book is the growing disconnect between physical puberty
19:38
Speaker 5: and like emotional maturity. Right that when girls get breasts sooner,
19:41
Speaker 5: they don't get judgment sooner, and they don't get you know,
19:44
Speaker 5: the emotional maturity of an adult, and so effectively you
19:47
Speaker 5: have people who look much more like adults, but actually
19:50
Speaker 5: they're eleven. And that has all kinds of implications, some
19:55
Speaker 5: of which are very hard to think about, involving you know, sex,
19:59
Speaker 5: but also so some of which involved literally just how
20:03
Speaker 5: are adults interacting with you? How are adults engaging with
20:06
Speaker 5: behavioral this regulation in kids Where you look at this person,
20:10
Speaker 5: you look like they're fifteen, You think, why are you
20:12
Speaker 5: acting like an eleven year old?
20:15
Speaker 1: It's because you are. I mean, one of our biggest
20:19
Speaker 1: exhortations in the book, can I use that word in
20:21
Speaker 1: casual so la thank you is for adults and this
20:27
Speaker 1: is really an adults responsibility, many adults responsibilities. This is
20:31
Speaker 1: not on the kids. This is not on the peer
20:33
Speaker 1: group to work super hard to separate how a kid
20:37
Speaker 1: appears versus what their chronological age is. And listen, educators
20:42
Speaker 1: are on the front lines of this. I mean, middle
20:44
Speaker 1: school teachers have kids who literally appear to be six
20:49
Speaker 1: or seven years apart in the way they look, as
20:53
Speaker 1: opposed to the fact that they're all this just like
20:57
Speaker 1: mess inside, equally leave messy inside and all the similar age.
21:03
Speaker 1: So it's on us, and it's frankly on us as
21:06
Speaker 1: caregivers to advocate for our kids in those situations. So
21:10
Speaker 1: if and when we see other adults, family members, coaches,
21:15
Speaker 1: people on the street treating our kids a lot older
21:18
Speaker 1: than they are, we have to step up because we
21:21
Speaker 1: cannot expect a kid to have that capability immediately. We
21:25
Speaker 1: can train them, we can help do role play and
21:28
Speaker 1: help them develop the language for that, but it's not
21:32
Speaker 1: going to happen immediately. And that's a place where I
21:34
Speaker 1: really believe adults step in.
21:36
Speaker 5: I totally agree. Okay, can we talk about body hair
21:39
Speaker 5: because for me, like one of the most interesting things
21:43
Speaker 5: in the book was this disconnect between hair and puberty timing,
21:48
Speaker 5: like I just could just like, it's a whole different system.
21:51
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought that was great, Car's second favorite topic.
21:55
Speaker 6: I love this because I went to medical school, I
21:58
Speaker 6: did residency training, and I still didn't understand it. It
22:01
Speaker 6: took me years to wrap my brain around it. So
22:04
Speaker 6: I am on a mission to explain it in a
22:06
Speaker 6: clear way so everyone can understand.
22:08
Speaker 5: Okay, here's your chance.
22:09
Speaker 6: Here we go go buckle up. So when we talk
22:13
Speaker 6: about puberty, in the narrowest definition, puberty is the maturation
22:19
Speaker 6: of the reproductive system, and what that means is the
22:23
Speaker 6: parts in your body that are required to one day
22:27
Speaker 6: potentially make a baby. That's the path through puberty in
22:30
Speaker 6: its narrowest definition. Okay, And the hormones that guide puberty
22:36
Speaker 6: are largely LH and FSH that come from the brain,
22:40
Speaker 6: from the pituitary. They come out of the pituitary and
22:42
Speaker 6: they go to their target organs. If you have testicles,
22:45
Speaker 6: they go to your testicles. If you have ovaries, they
22:47
Speaker 6: go to your ovaries, and those organs make their own hormones.
22:52
Speaker 6: Testicles make testosterone, ovaries make estrogen and progesterone. By the way,
22:56
Speaker 6: everyone has a little of everything. Because there are other
22:59
Speaker 6: places in the body that make those hormones. Okay, that
23:03
Speaker 6: all works in this very sort of it's like one
23:07
Speaker 6: little racecourse, Okay, like f one they're racing at Monaco,
23:11
Speaker 6: and that's what that is. Okay, on a separate race course.
23:16
Speaker 6: You've got the adrenal androgens. So the adrenal glands are
23:20
Speaker 6: these little triangular they look like little hats sitting on
23:23
Speaker 6: top of the kidneys, and they're these super complicated glands
23:27
Speaker 6: and their main job is to pump out hormones that
23:31
Speaker 6: guide a number of things, not sexual maturation. So cortisol
23:37
Speaker 6: is released from the adrenal glands so when we have
23:39
Speaker 6: a stress response, but also DHA and DHA S, which
23:43
Speaker 6: is just the sulfated version of DHA. Okay. Data is
23:48
Speaker 6: what goes to your skin cells and tells the sweat
23:52
Speaker 6: glands to amp up the volume of sweat. It also
23:56
Speaker 6: tells the little oil producing gland in your poor to
24:00
Speaker 6: increase the oil production in certain parts of the body
24:05
Speaker 6: that have that capacity armpits, groin, feet, scalp. Okay. It
24:11
Speaker 6: also tells the hair follicle right there to start to
24:15
Speaker 6: grow in a new hair that has a new texture
24:18
Speaker 6: or a new color, or a new thickness, or all
24:21
Speaker 6: of the above. And so it is the adrenal androgens
24:26
Speaker 6: that go out into the periphery of the body and
24:29
Speaker 6: tell the body to sprout hair, sprout sweat, and sprout oil.
24:33
Speaker 6: And now you have an explainer for hair and acne
24:37
Speaker 6: and body odor. And it's not about testosterone and estrogen,
24:41
Speaker 6: even though those hormones do play a role a little bit,
24:44
Speaker 6: because these are all cousin hormones. They are like a
24:46
Speaker 6: big family, but they're not racing at got to come
24:51
Speaker 6: up with a different track in Miami. Does that make sense?
24:55
Speaker 6: So that's why. And here's the most important take away
25:00
Speaker 6: from that concept. Go back to what Vanessa was saying
25:03
Speaker 6: about people who look older than they are. Put pubic
25:06
Speaker 6: hair on a six year old and suddenly, right parents
25:10
Speaker 6: are right.
25:11
Speaker 5: Freaked out, freaked out out.
25:13
Speaker 6: Yes, because they're thinking they're kids in puberty. And I'm
25:16
Speaker 6: here to tell you go see a doctor because maybe
25:20
Speaker 6: they are, but probably they're not. That is there adrenal
25:24
Speaker 6: androgen starting to kick in. And then you can say,
25:27
Speaker 6: why is that happening? And I can't answer that question, right.
25:30
Speaker 5: But I think that's that's the thing that really, it
25:32
Speaker 5: freaks people out because pubic hair on a little kid,
25:35
Speaker 5: it it means freaky for parents, It is.
25:38
Speaker 6: For everyone, for everyone involved. But when this is so
25:43
Speaker 6: so so important, when someone tells you, Vanessa and I
25:47
Speaker 6: try really hard not to use the word normal because
25:50
Speaker 6: the word normal is complicated when it comes to growing up.
25:53
Speaker 6: So what I can tell you is pubic hair on
25:55
Speaker 6: a six year old is it's not typical, but it
26:01
Speaker 6: is not such an outlier phenomenon that parents need to
26:06
Speaker 6: feel like they're totally alone on this journey. We get
26:09
Speaker 6: so many emails and dms and messaging in every way
26:13
Speaker 6: about early puba care. It's probably the most common question
26:17
Speaker 6: we get. That and breastbud showing up on one side
26:20
Speaker 6: that breaks people out too.
26:22
Speaker 5: Yeah, me and brests are always a little uneven, right,
26:25
Speaker 5: I feel like mine are still.
26:26
Speaker 1: That's what we tell them.
26:28
Speaker 6: We tell them they don't sit by me.
26:32
Speaker 5: The hair was interesting, I think for a second reason,
26:36
Speaker 5: which gets to the questions of communication that we sort
26:39
Speaker 5: of were talking about at the beginning, which is like,
26:41
Speaker 5: how do I talk about it? So when I was
26:43
Speaker 5: a kid and I got leg hair, my mother was
26:46
Speaker 5: just like, Okay, you shaved below your knees. Okay, this
26:48
Speaker 5: is like the early nineteen nineties and people you just
26:50
Speaker 5: shave below your knees, shaving above your knees, like no
26:53
Speaker 5: one did that, so it's.
26:54
Speaker 1: Just like there was a line harpit.
26:56
Speaker 5: And then your knees and actually I still can't really
27:00
Speaker 5: my knees, so I'm so hard. I moved to the
27:02
Speaker 5: top of the leg I did sort of adopt that
27:04
Speaker 5: later in college and then so now it's like the
27:06
Speaker 5: top and the bottom, but the knees are really quite
27:09
Speaker 5: what do you.
27:09
Speaker 1: Have like a hair poker?
27:11
Speaker 5: Pretty much, It's fine. I'm already married and I have
27:15
Speaker 5: children and I'm done, so it's fine. My husband can
27:17
Speaker 5: deal with the knee hair. If he wants to complain,
27:19
Speaker 5: that's too bad. I have some things to say as well. Anyway,
27:24
Speaker 5: my question is like, this is the kind of conversation
27:27
Speaker 5: I think is hard. You know, do I say, like,
27:30
Speaker 5: because of course, if you don't want to shave your legs, fine,
27:33
Speaker 5: and some I think more people don't shave your legs,
27:36
Speaker 5: but also like should I be like it's a good
27:38
Speaker 5: idea to shave your legs and also your knees, Like like,
27:41
Speaker 5: I don't want to think there's something wrong. Help me.
27:45
Speaker 1: I mean, so this is a super super common question.
27:48
Speaker 1: You are not alone, except in the not shaving your
27:50
Speaker 1: knees part, which it's just very difficult. Okay, you always
27:55
Speaker 1: cut them. I know, you always cut them. So what
27:59
Speaker 1: we incur people to do is to make room for
28:01
Speaker 1: like a whole spectrum of options, rather than the way
28:06
Speaker 1: we grew up, which was either this is the way
28:08
Speaker 1: you do it, and you do it tomorrow, or we
28:13
Speaker 1: secretly did stuff because no one was talking to us
28:16
Speaker 1: about it. So like we went to summer camp and
28:18
Speaker 1: got those pink bick disposable razors and no shaving.
28:23
Speaker 5: No shaving cream was that. I also did that.
28:25
Speaker 1: And ripped our legs to shreds. I still have scars
28:29
Speaker 1: from the first time I tried to shave my legs
28:32
Speaker 1: at summer camp. So our whole thing and then there
28:35
Speaker 1: was like years when you know, people don't shave their
28:38
Speaker 1: legs or don't do anything to their armpit. So we
28:40
Speaker 1: want to make room for all of the options and
28:44
Speaker 1: instead present like a panoply of hair decisions. Because the
28:50
Speaker 1: whole point of this entire exercise is to remove shame
28:54
Speaker 1: and judgment and let kids figure out what feels good
28:58
Speaker 1: and right to them. And by the way, social mores
29:01
Speaker 1: have completely shifted. My thirteen year old turned to me
29:06
Speaker 1: the other day and was like, so, when do I
29:08
Speaker 1: get my first manscaper? And I was like, excuse me, Oh,
29:13
Speaker 1: you don't know what okay, So a manscaper is. It's
29:17
Speaker 1: basically a trimmer for genital hair, for volvas or around
29:23
Speaker 1: penises and testicles. But it's a manscaper because it was
29:26
Speaker 1: marketed specifically to people with penises and testicles. Because people
29:32
Speaker 1: with penises and testicles remove much or maybe all of
29:36
Speaker 1: their pubic hair in the way that many women have
29:40
Speaker 1: done for many, many decades. So this is not even
29:44
Speaker 1: a gender thing. They also shave their legs, they shave
29:47
Speaker 1: their arms, they have their backs waxed. It is not gendered.
29:52
Speaker 1: Everybody is removing lots and lots of hair and then
29:55
Speaker 1: deciding to grow lots of hair in certain places. Like
29:58
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if I can can use
30:00
Speaker 1: this term, but what we used to call, Oh, Emily,
30:03
Speaker 1: I hope you can cut this if you need to,
30:05
Speaker 1: a full bush, right, So like they and then.
30:08
Speaker 5: Ladies at the ladies at the pool clubs coming out
30:11
Speaker 5: from outside your baby suit.
30:12
Speaker 1: It's like, that's what you're doing there the YMCA. It's
30:15
Speaker 1: like my best memory of the YMCA. Or they grow
30:18
Speaker 1: all their armpit hair and they remove all their pubic hair.
30:22
Speaker 1: It's like the morese of what we expected have gone
30:25
Speaker 1: out the window. And so it's not just being like
30:29
Speaker 1: here's the right razor. It's opening your mind up to
30:32
Speaker 1: that the world and our culture has like completely changed
30:36
Speaker 1: around hair.
30:36
Speaker 6: And the question you're asking about self esteem and the
30:40
Speaker 6: sort of taking shame away from it is a really
30:42
Speaker 6: important one because the facial mustache or unibrow or combination
30:48
Speaker 6: is the most sort of obvious one that the world sees,
30:53
Speaker 6: and a lot of parents really struggle with do I
30:55
Speaker 6: tell my kid they have it and offer a way
30:59
Speaker 6: to remove it? And you might be surprised. You can
31:03
Speaker 6: tell a kid they've got it, and they may look
31:05
Speaker 6: at you and go uh huh. They know it might
31:08
Speaker 6: be a source of pride, and you're looking at this
31:11
Speaker 6: very wispy mustache going are you kidding? Don't you want
31:14
Speaker 6: to remove it? But you've got to be very careful
31:17
Speaker 6: because the answer may be no, they may love it.
31:21
Speaker 5: Yeah.
31:22
Speaker 1: I mean you can literally just say hey, I noticed
31:24
Speaker 1: there's new hair on your body. Have you noticed that?
31:27
Speaker 1: And they can either be like if.
31:29
Speaker 6: Your child's like my child, they'd be like nope.
31:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you're like, okay, well, they clearly don't
31:34
Speaker 1: want to talk about it and they don't want to
31:35
Speaker 1: do anything about it, or they may say yeah, and
31:38
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with it, or we
31:40
Speaker 1: often hear from parents that their kids have like hairrier
31:44
Speaker 1: legs before anything else happens, and Car explained in depth
31:48
Speaker 1: why that is with great joy and glee. So like
31:52
Speaker 1: people wonder like if my kid wants to shave? Is
31:55
Speaker 1: my kid too young? You know, that becomes a thing
31:58
Speaker 1: because it is tied into self esteem and self consciousness.
32:01
Speaker 1: And while hair is not the most exciting topic, although
32:05
Speaker 1: if you listen to us you'd think it is the
32:06
Speaker 1: most exciting topic, it can really affect self esteem and
32:11
Speaker 1: so it is something you want to be engaged and
32:14
Speaker 1: in conversation about without dictating or freaking your kid out.
32:18
Speaker 5: Okay, So let's touch briefly on sex and on talking
32:23
Speaker 5: about sex, and I.
32:25
Speaker 1: Is there a question mark? There is it? Sex? Question marks?
32:29
Speaker 5: Sex? So there's one issue that people ask, how do
32:35
Speaker 5: I start these conversations. And I've talked about that here before,
32:38
Speaker 5: and there's a bunch of really great stuff in the book,
32:40
Speaker 5: but those that feels to be in some ways more
32:43
Speaker 5: tractable because you can think about it in advance. You
32:46
Speaker 5: can think about a moment that you want to bring
32:48
Speaker 5: it up and how you're going to talk about it.
32:50
Speaker 5: The thing it's very hard is when your kid comes
32:54
Speaker 5: home and they say, you know, today, you know, Phil
32:58
Speaker 5: in the lunch room was moving his hand up and
33:00
Speaker 5: down and everyone was laughing, what is what was he?
33:05
Speaker 5: What does that mean?
33:06
Speaker 3: Like?
33:06
Speaker 5: I didn't get it? What what was funny about that?
33:09
Speaker 5: And you you really didn't prepare for hand jobs? And
33:12
Speaker 5: you were like, we're gonna go into it, and and
33:15
Speaker 5: you're just you sort of want to be I was
33:17
Speaker 5: thinking about writing this. I was like, you want to
33:19
Speaker 5: be cool, but you don't want to be like the
33:21
Speaker 5: cool mom and mean girls, you know you don't you
33:24
Speaker 5: want to be like a little cool. And I think
33:26
Speaker 5: that's that the unexpectedness is hard because something you'd be like,
33:29
Speaker 5: I'm not going to talk about that, but of course
33:31
Speaker 5: you know that's not the right reaction. But in the moment,
33:33
Speaker 5: it's hard to just like I don't know what he
33:35
Speaker 5: was talking.
33:35
Speaker 6: Okay, Can I start with saying, anytime a kid comes
33:39
Speaker 6: home with any version of the phil statement, you should
33:43
Speaker 6: just immediately take a moment and pat yourself on the
33:47
Speaker 6: back and recognize the winning moment that your kid just
33:51
Speaker 6: described this scenario to you, because that.
33:54
Speaker 5: Is huge, And that goes back to this, like being
33:57
Speaker 5: a person, your kid can bring something to be comfortable with.
34:00
Speaker 6: But let us be very clear, we are not advocating
34:04
Speaker 6: for people to be their kid's best friend. That is
34:06
Speaker 6: not what kids want. That is not what kids need,
34:08
Speaker 6: not in the sex talk, and not in any other way.
34:11
Speaker 6: They want parents. Kids tell us they want parents they want.
34:15
Speaker 6: They may tell you as their parent, they don't like
34:17
Speaker 6: a limit, limits keep them feeling safe. Their job is
34:22
Speaker 6: to push against limits, right, and they're very good at
34:25
Speaker 6: their jobs, some of them excellent. But they really really
34:30
Speaker 6: really want a parent. So your question about how do
34:33
Speaker 6: you straddle being cool but still parenting and being able
34:39
Speaker 6: to answer all this, I mean, I'll give you my
34:40
Speaker 6: two cents. I love Vanessa to chime in. So the
34:44
Speaker 6: first thing, first rule we have is never lie, Never
34:48
Speaker 6: lie about a question about your own personal experience, and
34:51
Speaker 6: never lie about an answer. If you don't have an
34:54
Speaker 6: answer at they're ready, The best answer is to take
34:57
Speaker 6: a deep breath and say, that is such a great
34:59
Speaker 6: question that I was not prepared to answer quite yet.
35:02
Speaker 6: Give me a minute, or give me an hour, and
35:05
Speaker 6: I'm going to get back to you and explain it
35:07
Speaker 6: in the best way I can. You've just bought yourself
35:10
Speaker 6: time and you're not lying your kids. By the way,
35:12
Speaker 6: be prepared. They will ask about your sexual history, they
35:15
Speaker 6: will ask about your drug and alcohol history. It is
35:18
Speaker 6: one hundred percent guarantee. So when it's that set of questions,
35:23
Speaker 6: you need to either be ready with your answer or
35:27
Speaker 6: pull yourself together and give yourself a breather. So when
35:30
Speaker 6: it comes to Phil, okay, first answer might be that
35:33
Speaker 6: is such a great question. I need a minute before
35:36
Speaker 6: I can answer and give you all the information. And
35:38
Speaker 6: here's the second thing I would do, And this is
35:40
Speaker 6: the most powerful sentence that you can utter as a
35:43
Speaker 6: parent about anything. Get context. So if it's from out
35:49
Speaker 6: of the blue, and if the story is vague and
35:53
Speaker 6: not quite as specific, it's that's such an interesting question.
35:56
Speaker 6: What made you ask me that? Right? But with the
35:59
Speaker 6: Phil story, which who is very specific, you might say
36:01
Speaker 6: something like, okay, can you give me a little more color,
36:04
Speaker 6: like how did it come up? What did the other
36:07
Speaker 6: kids say? They just have to get a sense of
36:09
Speaker 6: the situation, mostly to transport yourself back to middle school
36:13
Speaker 6: and have a moment of gratitude that you're not there
36:17
Speaker 6: all day every day. But really it's to contextualize what
36:21
Speaker 6: they're asking, because yes, they're asking very specifically about a
36:24
Speaker 6: hand job, but there may be other questions that they're
36:27
Speaker 6: asking too, or there may be questions are not asking
36:30
Speaker 6: and you're about to go down a road and give
36:32
Speaker 6: way too much information, And they really have a narrow,
36:36
Speaker 6: narrow ask. So where I would start is, thank you
36:40
Speaker 6: so much for sharing that with me. That was amazing.
36:43
Speaker 6: I need a minute to collect my thoughts. Then go
36:48
Speaker 6: find a resource, whether it's a person, maybe it's our book,
36:51
Speaker 6: or maybe it's something else, and go look up some
36:54
Speaker 6: strategies about how to answer this question and go back
36:58
Speaker 6: to them. And for me, it's always not eye to eye.
37:02
Speaker 6: So I usually will like lay on my kid's bed
37:04
Speaker 6: and look at the ceiling while they're facing away from me,
37:06
Speaker 6: because that's a much easier way to have the conversation
37:09
Speaker 6: and dive into your answer. So Vanessa you want to
37:12
Speaker 6: pick up. Vanessa has so many more children than I
37:14
Speaker 6: do that she has lots of ways through.
37:16
Speaker 1: And they talk about so many inappropriate things at the table.
37:19
Speaker 1: I mean, Mike, one of my youngest kid was like
37:21
Speaker 1: throwing around the term sixty nine as a joke for
37:24
Speaker 1: a year before I the quote unquote puberty expert. I
37:29
Speaker 1: mean expert is like the worst and dumbest term ever
37:33
Speaker 1: when it comes to parenting, because like, no one is
37:36
Speaker 1: an expert at all. Until I was like, hey, dude,
37:40
Speaker 1: what is sixty nine? And he was like, I don't know.
37:45
Speaker 1: So I turned to his older brother, who was like
37:48
Speaker 1: in high school, and I was like, can you explain
37:50
Speaker 1: what sixty nine is? And they sort of explained it.
37:54
Speaker 1: My son has never used sixty nine as a of
37:58
Speaker 1: a joke ever. Again. I would just say, Wow, that
38:03
Speaker 1: must have been pretty surprising. What do you imagine Phil
38:07
Speaker 1: was doing? Like what do you think was going on there?
38:10
Speaker 1: Because kids feel this pressure like they're supposed to know
38:13
Speaker 1: it and they're supposed to get the joke and they're
38:15
Speaker 1: supposed to be in on it, but half the time
38:17
Speaker 1: they're just like faking it because they're embarrassed to admit
38:20
Speaker 1: when they don't know. Okay, that's very helpful and humor.
38:26
Speaker 1: I mean, people feel like these conversations are like so
38:30
Speaker 1: serious and like you have to have every word chosen
38:33
Speaker 1: purposely and perfectly, and like we are all going to
38:37
Speaker 1: mess up, and we're going to mess up over and
38:40
Speaker 1: over and over again because these are the trickiest, some
38:42
Speaker 1: of the most important conversations we're gonna have. And so
38:45
Speaker 1: you just go back and you're like, so, you know,
38:47
Speaker 1: when we talked about Phil, I blew that and I
38:50
Speaker 1: like made a joke and walked away and never answered
38:53
Speaker 1: your question. Can I get a chance to answer your
38:55
Speaker 1: question now? Because I was really appreciative that you came
38:58
Speaker 1: to me, but I was also super nervous that you
39:01
Speaker 1: asked me a tough question that I was not prepared for.
39:05
Speaker 1: And kids love that because then they're in the driver's
39:08
Speaker 1: seat and they feel heard and they feel seen, and
39:11
Speaker 1: we are fallible, and there's nothing better to kids than
39:14
Speaker 1: us being fallible. So with all of this stuff, it
39:17
Speaker 1: is an opportunity to just come back and say, let's
39:21
Speaker 1: take it again, because I have a better answer.
39:24
Speaker 6: The other thing I might add Vanessa is thank the
39:28
Speaker 6: kid for coming to you instead of going to another kid,
39:32
Speaker 6: and right take the opportunity to remind them that sometimes
39:37
Speaker 6: questions can be answered by their friends, but the answer
39:39
Speaker 6: won't always be exactly accurate because everyone has similar questions
39:45
Speaker 6: and everyone's got to learn information for a first time.
39:48
Speaker 6: And so if you acknowledge that you are a judgment
39:52
Speaker 6: free zone and you will just give straight information when necessary,
39:56
Speaker 6: you will find that you will become the resource, the
39:59
Speaker 6: go to resource. Some parents will be listening to this
40:02
Speaker 6: and they will say, I am downright never going to
40:06
Speaker 6: be comfortable answering what a hand job is.
40:09
Speaker 1: That's okay.
40:10
Speaker 6: Then identify that the adult in your kid's life who
40:13
Speaker 6: will be and there can be a surrogate to you
40:16
Speaker 6: who is the outsourced person you trust. Little side note,
40:21
Speaker 6: tell them so that they are prepared because occasionally your
40:25
Speaker 6: kid may call them with a scenario that they are
40:28
Speaker 6: not expecting. So if you were not raised to have
40:31
Speaker 6: these conversations and it's just too far outside your comfort zone,
40:35
Speaker 6: then just find someone who can be sort of the
40:38
Speaker 6: appointed person, and you and your kid will have to
40:40
Speaker 6: work on picking that person together. Often they will pick
40:44
Speaker 6: the right person. The person you would have picked. Often
40:47
Speaker 6: I will pick the very wrong person at first, and
40:50
Speaker 6: you can kind of guide their choice and maybe have
40:52
Speaker 6: a conversation.
40:55
Speaker 5: So you've said limits make teens feel safe. That seems
40:59
Speaker 5: like a familiar state meant for parenting smaller kids. So
41:02
Speaker 5: is my teenager basically just a big three year old.
41:06
Speaker 1: I think that there's an impulsiveness and questionable decision making.
41:12
Speaker 1: There's a moodiness that feels reminiscent. There's a desire to
41:17
Speaker 1: establish independence and to separate themselves from their parents and
41:23
Speaker 1: their trusted adults. That is all very resonant of toddler years.
41:29
Speaker 1: It's also a time where you have to say, listen,
41:32
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you some choice. I'm also going
41:34
Speaker 1: to lay down some parameters. And within those parameters, I'm
41:37
Speaker 1: going to give you a lot of decision making opportunity
41:40
Speaker 1: and a lot of power and a lot of agency.
41:43
Speaker 1: And outside of that, you get what you get and
41:46
Speaker 1: you don't get upset, or maybe you do get upset.
41:48
Speaker 1: But like tough kiddo, and I think that that is
41:52
Speaker 1: really critical. I mean, Kara talks about how teens actually
41:56
Speaker 1: want limits and they want parameters, and they don't want
41:59
Speaker 1: us to be their friends, and even though it would
42:02
Speaker 1: be easier to roll over and make a joke out
42:04
Speaker 1: of it, just like with your toddler, when you did that,
42:08
Speaker 1: you were also up till midnight with a screaming kid
42:11
Speaker 1: who refused to go to bed, and we know how
42:13
Speaker 1: much that sucked. So like, think of the teen equivalent
42:17
Speaker 1: of that, with much higher stakes and much more discomfort,
42:20
Speaker 1: and that's what you end up with. So it's really
42:22
Speaker 1: best for everyone involved if they have some limits.
42:25
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, when I used to be in the office,
42:28
Speaker 6: one of the most common pieces of advice I would
42:30
Speaker 6: give for parents of toddlers and kindergarten age kids all
42:35
Speaker 6: the way up through grammar school, frankly, is to pretend
42:39
Speaker 6: like mentally in the back of their minds, pretend like
42:41
Speaker 6: your kid is sixteen and asking for the car keys,
42:44
Speaker 6: you're gonna give them the car keys, And the answer
42:47
Speaker 6: is generally no, I'm not. Actually, So those are the
42:51
Speaker 6: same sort of touch points you can lean on throughout
42:56
Speaker 6: their entire growth and development trajectory in order to age
43:00
Speaker 6: your own limit setting. Right, if you're ready to hand
43:04
Speaker 6: them complete and utter independence, then don't give them roles,
43:08
Speaker 6: don't set limits, be hands off but that's not what
43:10
Speaker 6: they need. And you know that, and they know that.
43:13
Speaker 6: You know, there are great therapists out there who use
43:16
Speaker 6: the analogy of you wouldn't let your kid fly the plane. Right,
43:20
Speaker 6: They're interested in looking in the cockpit, but you're not
43:21
Speaker 6: gonna let them fly the plane. So it's all part
43:25
Speaker 6: and parcel the same thing. And this is what makes
43:28
Speaker 6: child rearing hard, and child rearing in twenty twenty three,
43:33
Speaker 6: and it's only gonna get worse, is you know. The
43:36
Speaker 6: co parents in the equation include the internet. So this
43:40
Speaker 6: is very complicated stuff. But kids, you know, I will
43:45
Speaker 6: say it Tom Blue in the face. Kids tell us,
43:48
Speaker 6: kids of all ages tell us they like limits. Limits
43:55
Speaker 6: make them feel safe. They are guardrails that are supposed
44:00
Speaker 6: to be tested and they're supposed to be pushed against,
44:04
Speaker 6: but they make kids feel safe.
44:14
Speaker 5: I love that. Thank you guys so much. The book
44:16
Speaker 5: is called This is So Awkward. Everyone should read it.
44:19
Speaker 5: I would highly recommend it. It is better than anything about
44:22
Speaker 5: the German Central Bank, and it's just an absolutely crucial resource.
44:27
Speaker 1: So thank you, guys, thank you so much. Thank you
44:32
Speaker 1: more than you I'm sure you know, just to learn
44:36
Speaker 1: that's not superable that's just your tune.
44:39
Speaker 5: O tean, it is the guard puts up service. Bring tean,
44:47
Speaker 5: it is look at this. We have not averatyda more
44:54
Speaker 5: parent data after the break.
44:56
Speaker 1: We don't know love use deliriate deep shoes again, little.
45:04
Speaker 5: Smuter can.
45:20
Speaker 2: All right.
45:21
Speaker 4: This is a story about puberty. So I was in
45:26
Speaker 4: sixth grade and I was starting to worry that I
45:31
Speaker 4: was starting to smell, and so I decided I needed
45:35
Speaker 4: to ask my mom for some deodorant.
45:38
Speaker 2: When I was thirteen years old, I was at summer
45:42
Speaker 2: camp in the middle of nowhere, and I got my
45:46
Speaker 2: period for the first time, and I was totally unprepared
45:49
Speaker 2: and it.
45:50
Speaker 4: Took multiple days of trying to find the right time,
45:53
Speaker 4: being afraid to ask. But finally there was a moment
45:57
Speaker 4: where it was just her and I in the car
46:00
Speaker 4: and I said, Mom, can you get me some deodorant?
46:04
Speaker 4: And what I thought would be oh, sure, honey, was
46:07
Speaker 4: actually what you don't need deodorant. You're too young for deodorant?
46:12
Speaker 4: Do you smell?
46:14
Speaker 2: My parents had not packed any supplies in my duffel bag,
46:19
Speaker 2: and I didn't know what to do, and I emailed
46:21
Speaker 2: my mom that morning from the computer and said, I
46:26
Speaker 2: think I got my period, So of course she flipped out,
46:30
Speaker 2: called the camp immediately and spoke to the nurse, and
46:35
Speaker 2: during rest hour, the nurse came and brought me a
46:38
Speaker 2: big Manila envelope of pads, you know, big bulky walked
46:42
Speaker 2: like a penguin pads, And of course, like I was
46:45
Speaker 2: just completely humiliated.
46:46
Speaker 4: And at the time, I wasn't sure if I smelled.
46:48
Speaker 4: They didn't want to admit that I didn't actually know
46:51
Speaker 4: what BO smelled like, and later I realized that BO
46:55
Speaker 4: is what my parents smelled like in the morning. So anyway,
46:59
Speaker 4: my request was denied. I felt dejected and embarrassed. Fast
47:03
Speaker 4: forward a few weeks and I'm getting ready for my
47:06
Speaker 4: last father daughter dance. My friend and I got our
47:10
Speaker 4: hair done, I had my fancy dress on, and I'm
47:14
Speaker 4: about to leave when suddenly my mom goes, hmmm, something
47:19
Speaker 4: doesn't smell right, and she sniffs herself and realize it's
47:22
Speaker 4: not her and looks at my dad. He goes hmm,
47:25
Speaker 4: and he sniffs himself and it's not him, and all
47:30
Speaker 4: eyes turn to me and they sniff me and it's me.
47:40
Speaker 2: My sister. The first time she got her period was
47:44
Speaker 2: at twelve and I remember that it was twelve because
47:46
Speaker 2: she was doing a dress rehearsal at our synagogue for
47:49
Speaker 2: her Bot Mitzvah.
47:50
Speaker 1: She was on.
47:51
Speaker 2: The stage practicing reading from the Torah, and all of
47:54
Speaker 2: a sudden, she just felt a gush.
47:58
Speaker 1: And she knew.
48:00
Speaker 2: My mom was very choked up, like, oh my gosh,
48:02
Speaker 2: you became a woman while you were literally becoming a
48:05
Speaker 2: Jewish woman, and she was just so touched by that.
48:07
Speaker 2: Of course, my sister was also humiliated by that as well.
48:13
Speaker 7: Here's a puberty story. When I was in fifth grade,
48:16
Speaker 7: we had a special guest sex said teacher who was
48:21
Speaker 7: dot dot dot my mom. So I got to hear
48:24
Speaker 7: fun words like testicles and vulva in front of my
48:29
Speaker 7: entire class over and over again. It was super fun
48:34
Speaker 7: and I wouldn't change a thing, just kidding. It was mortifying.
48:39
Speaker 4: Needless to say, it was completely humiliated, and it could
48:43
Speaker 4: have all been avoided if she just said, sure, honey,
48:46
Speaker 4: I'll get you some deodorant.
49:04
Speaker 5: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
49:08
Speaker 5: the Parent Data Team and PI Rex. Also special thanks
49:11
Speaker 5: to our house violinist, my daughter Penelope.
49:14
Speaker 1: No problem, Mom, If you have thoughts on this, episode.
49:17
Speaker 5: Please join the conversation on my Instagram at Prof Emily Ostar,
49:21
Speaker 5: and if you want to support the show, become a
49:23
Speaker 5: subscriber to the parent Data newsletter at parentdata dot org,
49:27
Speaker 5: where I write weekly posts on everything to do with
49:30
Speaker 5: parents and data to help you make better, more informed
49:33
Speaker 5: parenting decisions. Just last week, for example, we publish an
49:37
Speaker 5: essay by psychologist doctor Katie Davis on resisting the urge
49:41
Speaker 5: to help your kids too much when they're struggling in school.
49:44
Speaker 5: It's a great on the ground example of what Vanessa
49:47
Speaker 5: and Kara just talked about. If you like what you hear,
49:50
Speaker 5: please leave the show or a positive review on Apple Podcasts.
49:53
Speaker 5: It really helps people find out about us. Write Penelope,
49:56
Speaker 5: write mom, We'll see you next time.