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The Inclusive Education Series: A conversation with Mel Ainscow · DiveIn: Diving into Special Education's Most Complex and Pressing Debates

0:05
From the Division of Research of the Council for Exceptional Children,
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this is Dive in, the podcast, where we
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ask difficult questions about the education of students with disabilities. And occasionally
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we pretend we have the answers. I'm your host, Federico Vitolo,
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professor at the University of Illinois, Chicago. So, are you ready?
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Let's dive in.
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Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to our third episode
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of the fourth season of Dive In. Here we are again providing
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a little disruption to your day. Hopefully the good kind of disruption,
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the kind that allows you to ignore the important things in your life,
0:45
like answering your email, folding your laundry, or finally dealing with that
0:49
mysterious container that has been sitting in the back of your refrigerator for three weeks.
0:53
Yep, that one that smells and you are afraid to open.
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I would not open it. Just leave it there. Listen to the show.
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You have been following us. You know that this season we're doing
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a special series on inclusive education. So far we have heard
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from David Connor, Doug Fuze, who have offered very different and
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contrasting perspectives in inclusive education.
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Today we broaden the conversation by bringing
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an international perspective. And for that I
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have a very, very, very special guest, Mel Ainscoe.
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Mel is the professor of education at the University of Glasgow
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and emeritus professor at the University of Manchester.
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He's internationally recognized for his work on inclusion and equity in education,
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and he spent decades and decades working with schools,
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educational systems, governments and international organizations
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around the world. He has also worked
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extensively with UNESCO and has helped education systems to think about
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how they can become more inclusive and equitable. Even when
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we talk about the history of our inclusive education, Mel didn't read it.
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He was there. He was involved in the work surrounding the
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1994 Salamanca Statement, one of the landmark international moments
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in the development of inclusive education. So naturally, I had
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a lot of questions for him. We talked about how inclusive education has changed
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over the last decade, what Salamanca got right and what perhaps
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we still haven't figured out. What evidence tell us about inclusion and what
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Mel has learned from working with education systems around the world.
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But before we got into that,
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we had to address something much more important.
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The workout. We're recording this interview near the beginning of the tournament,
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and of course I asked Mel about English chances.
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Now, after Argentina beat England 21 in
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the semifinals, I was very tempted to contact Mel again. Just a
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short and friendly email. Hey, Mel, I hope you're doing well.
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Unfortunately, my electricity went out and I wasn't able to watch the last few
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matches of the workout. Can you remind me what happened in the semifinal? But I'm
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a good colleague and a gracious winner and Argentinian performance in
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the final was so disappointing enough to restore at least some of my
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humility. So I'm gonna let it go. Mostly. Anyway,
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before we dive in, I want to ask you for a few things.
3:27
First, check out our previous episodes.
3:30
We now have 49 episodes covering a wide range of topics
3:34
related to disability, special education, equity policy, and the
3:39
teaching and learning of students with disabilities. If you are a university professor looking
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for materials for your courses, take a look through our episode library.
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If you're a doctor in education, you should definitely be listening to the
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show. And if you're a biologist specializing in the mating habits
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of Antarctic squid, honestly, you should probably listen to.
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You've been staring at that squid all day. You do some regret.
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It takes about two seconds, cuts absolutely nothing,
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come and tell us about the episodes. Would you
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agree with, Would you disagree? If you can ask us questions and continue
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when the conversation doesn't end with the episode. So, okay, nom dam,
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no more announcements, no more squids, no more World cup
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trash talk. Well, probably. Are you ready?
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Let's dive in to my conversation with Mel Ainsko.
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Well, thank you, Mel, for being with us and dive in. It's a privilege to
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have you here. It's a great pleasure to join you in this conversation, this international
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conversation. I think, yeah, this is going to be great. You're going to give
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us some international perspectives. But before we start, you know, I have the most critical
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question of this interview. You know, this is very important. It's intense. It's a heated
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debate. And my question is, who are you going for in this
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World Cup? Oh, well, of course I'm going for England.
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It's my country, my team. And we're all very excited because we think we're going
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to win it this time. The last time we won it was in 1966,
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and I was a very young man and I watched it in a bar in
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Ripol in Catalonia,
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and that seems such a long time. So I'm hoping that this year that we'll
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pick it up again. We'll see. We'll see. Well, I think this conversation is over,
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Mel. I think our relationship just ended.
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Probably the least country. I want to win the World Cup.
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I'm so sorry to say it, it is England. It's England and Brazil.
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Whoever wins the World cup, anyone but those two teams. But anyway,
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for the sake of the audience, we'll continue the
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interview. Okay, we'll forgive you for that. Thank you again for being
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with us. You know, we're doing a series of in about
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inclusive education. We have had many different scholars with different perspectives
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in the series. Oh, and we will have more. But you know what
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I notice when I read the literature, when I hear people talking when interview
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different scholars, is like, everybody, of course, thinks inclusive education is important.
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Sometimes it feels that it means different things to different people,
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different things to different countries. How do you define inclusive
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education? And what would you say distinguish authentic inclusive education
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from simply just putting students with disabilities in the school?
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Well, in a sense, that's the key question. And I think, you know,
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throughout the world now, people talk about inclusive education.
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And I should explain, a feature of my work is, although I work here in
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the United Kingdom, I work in many different parts of the world through my links
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with UNESCO, which I have been involved with now for 30 years or so.
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So wherever I go, I hear discussion about inclusive education now
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more usually inclusion and equity, picking up the phrase from
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sustainable development goal 4. And in a sense,
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that perspective, inclusion and equity, sums up my position.
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As part of my work with UNESCO in 2017,
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I coordinated a group of international experts and we produced
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a thing called A Guide for A Guide
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for Encouraging Inclusion and Equity in Education. It's available on the
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UNESCO website in a number of languages, free. There's no payment involved.
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But the team that produced that document, somebody came up with this motto,
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and I use it a lot in my work in different places. The motto is
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simply this. Every learner matters and matters equally.
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Every learner matters and matters equally. For me, that's the principle.
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And so when I'm thinking about the notion of inclusive education,
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which is part of all of that, for me this is about.
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It's a program of reform. It's reforming education systems
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at all levels, from the government level through to the school level,
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and most important, of course to the classroom level, on the principle
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that every learner matters and matters equally. And so it's a reform
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strategy which requires us to look at systems
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and contexts. In this kind of work, contexts matter. So that means that
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what Works in one place, might not work in another place. That's the frustration of
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it all. But the conceptualization that I use is
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that this is about barriers. What are the barriers that are making
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it difficult for some children to be present,
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to participate and to make progress? So it's about all
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three things presence, participation and progress. And so what are
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the barriers? Now, for me, that's crucial. And of course, the concept of barriers,
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you will know, is there in some of the international documents, including sustainable
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development goal 4. So we need to be clear what barriers are.
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So, for example, the curriculum can be a barrier if
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it's not designed with all children in mind. The assessment systems
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we use can be a barrier if they don't celebrate the progress of all children,
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some who will be making relatively slow progress, of course. And of
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course, ultimately, it's our practice, our practice as
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teachers, as practice, as school leaders. You know, the barriers that exist
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within the context of the school are things that we need to address. Then there
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are some other barriers, of course, which are more difficult to define and certainly
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so difficult to change. And those are the barriers in our mind.
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If we don't believe it's possible for all children to
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participate in a similar school together in the same classroom,
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working along the other children who live in their neighbourhood, we don't believe it's
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possible, then it won't happen. Now, this is crucial to my
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definition. It's about context, it's about barriers. Right.
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But what we need to be clear about, and this is fundamental, what I want
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to argue is this is not about barriers within children or
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barriers within children's families. I'm not saying there aren't difficulties and challenges there.
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But this is not. That's the past. That's the old special
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education model. And of course, I come from that model. I was director
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of a special school some years ago in England, so my background is in special
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education. So I've had to go through quite a rethinking process over many
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years. So, for me, this is about contextual barriers, things that
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we can do something about, not barriers within children or barriers within
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families. That's the old thinking. And that, in a sense, is one
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of the most difficult barriers to overcome, because it's deeply rooted in
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many systems, I suspect, and I know very little about the United States.
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It's the one country where I haven't done any work really. But I suspect it's
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deeply rooted in the history of education in the United States,
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where you have this sort of powerful lobby of special education,
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which is sort of trying to hang on to traditional thinking and practice.
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Does that make sense? Yeah, no, absolutely. But, you know,
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those words, even those words very specific, you say, can be also appropriated
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in ways that steer away maybe from the essence of what
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you're trying to, to define inclusive education. For example, I could say,
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well, yes, we need to dismantle barriers. So because this student
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is having, you know, difficulties learning how to read,
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a way to dismantle that barrier is like, I'm going to put them in a
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separate classroom to do some intensive intervention in phonics,
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for example, right. With that challenge that the spirit
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of inclusive education that you, you want to define with it with youh say,
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well, I always take the position that I trust
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teachers to do the best in the context they find
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themselves. I spend a lot of time in schools and, you know, I see things
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that I don't particularly like, but ultimately I trust teachers to do the best
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with the resources that are available to them. And if that
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kind of arrangement is what they think is the appropriate thing to do, I wouldn't
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do that, and I would try to discourage that. You see, the most powerful
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form of learning for all children is, is that which occurs between children when
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they work together in the classroom, when they work together in cooperative learning groups and
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so on. So soon as you separate a child from that
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social learning context, you are really taking
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a risk because they have to pay a price for all of that. But at
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the end of the day, if that's what people choose to do, I will challenge
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them, but I will leave them to make the best decision, given the circumstances
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and the resources that we're talking about. You see, fundamental as
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well to the approach I'm talking about is an emphasis on inquiry.
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So I spend a lot of time working with schools, or more usually, networks of
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schools. And what we try to do is to set up in schools what
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we often call staff inquiry groups. So we ask a school
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that works in our projects to set up a staff inquiry groups and we work
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with them to collect evidence about barriers. So that
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means watching what's going on through observation. It certainly
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means listening to the views of the students themselves, because to understand
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the barriers they experience, we have to see the school and the classroom through their
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eyes. So for me, progress in relation to inclusion is fundamentally,
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as I said earlier, it's a reform process. But as far as
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schools is concerned, it's a school improvement process with
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enough evidence now to know that when schools go down that
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road, whilst it's not simple and straightforward, the changes they
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are likely to make are likely to benefit all children.
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So my argument, which is, you know, a bit of a challenge,
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is that inclusion and equity is the roadway to excellence.
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If you want an excellent education system, if you want an excellent classroom
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or an excellent school, you need to find the barriers, work together
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to address them, and then see the impact on all of the children.
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Now, in different parts of the world, there are clearly schools have
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taken that journey, including here in England, here in the city of Manchester,
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where I am. But there are countries as well that have made progress in
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relation to all of that. I work, for example,
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quite a lot in Portugal. Now, Portugal is possibly
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the most inclusive education system in the world. Really.
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I'm not setting it up. It's perfect. It's not perfect, but certainly
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they have made enormous progress in developing an education system
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based on the principle that I've defined as every
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learner matters and matters equally. They abolished all of their special
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provision 25 years ago. So this is not a recent thing.
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And since then, subsequent governments of different persuasion have
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stayed with the idea that that inclusion should be the basis of
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their education system. So what's happened since then? They've closed
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the provision and they've reinvested the resources, including all the expertise,
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into supporting developments in the local mainstream schools,
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Schools, working clusters, and I think networking
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school is absolutely essential to the reform of education
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systems. Moving knowledge around within schools, but moving knowledge
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around between schools. So in Portugal, schools work in clusters.
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The special provision that was there previously, separately, the psychologists,
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the specialist teachers and so on, speech therapists, they're there supporting the clusters
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of the schools. Now. What's very interesting, and I worked on
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an OECD review of Portugal three years ago. You can find the review
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on the OECD website. It's really long and
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rather boring, I have to say, but the essence of it was that we looked
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up what had happened over those years in Portugal that had made a difference.
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And it was about restructuring, but it was also about establishing a
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definition of what we're trying to achieve. And one of the things that came
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out that really stayed with me, and I've kind of dined out on this in
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different parts of the world, I heard many people say the same thing.
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I heard the Minister say it, I heard teachers say it, I even
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heard families say it sometimes. And it's a simple principle. You do not
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have to label to intervene. So that's a much quoted sort
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of mantra in Portugal. You do not have to label to intervene.
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Now, I'm talking to you from the world capital
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of labeling here in England. We have a kind of,
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you know, an epidemic of labeling. Every time I go in schools I hear a
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new label that somebody's invented and so on. But all those labels are another
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form of barrier because they create an expectation there's something wrong
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with the child. Now, I think the Portuguese thinking this idea is
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not necessary to label in order to intervene seems to me to be very important
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if we're to make that. Yeah, that's great.
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I have some follow up questions because you talked a lot about
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evidence in your response that you have worked with a lot of schools and
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what the work you have done with school have taught
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you about inclusive education. On the other hand,
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there are scholars, there are people that say,
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yeah, inclusive education works, but just for some students,
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and there are always going to be students that inclusive education
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doesn't work. And therefore we need to have a
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continuum of placement, which is basically the legislation in the
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us we need to have a continuum of placement so teachers and
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parents and professionals have the option to place students in
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separate settings according to their needs. How would you respond to
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that? Well, it is difficult. I keep repeating as well the phrase, you know,
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context matters. I mean, we have similar situation here in the
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uk and I understand it from the point of view of the families
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and the parents, like all parents, and I'm a parent, you want the
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best for your kids, you know, and you're hearing one expert saying this thing and
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another expert saying that thing and ultimately you
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have to make a decision. But it seems to me the presence of that thinking
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in the presence of those options are a barrier in
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a sense, because I hear here in England often people saying,
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well, he has to go to a special school or she needs to be in
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a special unit. And once you have that thinking in the system,
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it acts a barrier to, to saying, why is it that this youngster
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is having difficulty and what can we do about it really? Sometimes when
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I'm asked this question about, you know, what you mean by inclusion,
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I quote a friend of mine years ago from New Zealand who said,
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you know, I believe in inclusive education, but there will never be an inclusive
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school. It's an impossibility. You can be on the journey and
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it is a journey, but it's a never ending journey because there will always be
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new children come along who present new challenges.
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So a system that's based on the principle of inclusion, as I see it,
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is one in which there's constantly searching for new responses.
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It's a dynamic process. I used the word reform earlier.
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It's a dynamic process of Reform. And it requires a
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collective effort of everybody. And I think people who have a background in special education.
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And I said earlier, I do. I think we have a
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very important contribution to make, but we have to rethink ourselves and rethink
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our position. And that's the debate that's going on globally. And of course,
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to some extent, it started in 1994 with the Salamanca Conference.
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I was involved in the creation of that conference, and I was there actually in
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2024. We had a big celebration in Paris at
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UNESCO of 30 years from Salamanca.
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And I gave one of the talks and it was
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a room full of ministers and civil servants, I guess probably three
20:02
or 400 people. And the woman who introduced me was a minister from
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Scotland, in fact. And before she introduced
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me, she said, I'd like to ask in the room, how many people were at
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Salamanca? Put your hand up. One hand went up.
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I was the only person who would be there in Salamanca. So I quickly said,
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but I was very young at the time. What was interesting
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about Salamanca is that it came four years after what
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was the most important global development as far as education is concerned,
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the conference in 1990 in Jomtien, which led to
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the movement of education for all. So here we have in
20:42
1990 a political statement that the world has got to
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address the question of education for all. I like that phrase, education for all.
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You know, it's a better phrase than inclusive education, because it's.
20:53
It talks to everybody and it has a meaning to everybody who has to be
20:56
involved in all of this. And I often say, when I'm talking about that history
21:00
to people, I say, you know, here we are, 1990,
21:03
education for all. All the countries, almost all the countries in the
21:07
world agree to that being their priority. I don't think the United States did,
21:11
of course, because they don't like to be involved in these world movements. You know,
21:14
that's your problem over there, you know. Anyway, you've got other problems
21:19
now. I know, but there we are, education for all. 1990,
21:22
four years later, we have another conference to
21:27
address the question, what is the role of special needs education?
21:31
And that's the phrase that was used in the context of education
21:34
for all. And I think, think about it,
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we've agreed that education for all is the agenda. And then four
21:42
years later we have a conference for another group of children. So actually,
21:45
education for all means education for nearly all, because there's all
21:50
children. And of course that's the history in all of our countries. If you go
21:54
back to the expansion of public Education mainly in the 19th century in
21:58
this country, of course, as education spread, there were
22:01
always some children who were treated separately because they
22:05
were left out. And I sometimes say to people, remember those people who
22:09
created special education in the 19th century?
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In my case, in a sense, they were believers of inclusive education.
22:18
They wanted their kids to have education, and at that point they
22:22
didn't have any education. And they did what was possible, which was to create separate
22:26
arrangements, usually away from the community, in residential things, and so on.
22:30
So the journey continues. And go back to that phrase,
22:34
there'll never be an inclusive school, there'll always be new children come along.
22:38
But there are schools, and there are many schools all
22:42
over the world in my experience, who are on that journey and are seeking ways
22:46
of reaching out to all children and addressing those
22:50
barriers that some of the children are experiencing. So,
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you know, in a sense, then, you've been, I mean, to say the least,
22:57
one of the leading voices on inclusive ed around the world.
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What have you seen since the decade, San Salamanca?
23:05
What changes have you seen? Have you seen some important
23:10
development? Have you seen the ways the inclusive education is thought of in different
23:14
ways? How have you seen a change through these 40
23:18
years? I think there has been massive change, really.
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I want to suggest that the journey is finished, because clearly it's not.
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From what I've already said, I think there's been massive change. There was Another
23:30
conference in 2008 held in Geneva by the
23:34
International Bureau of Education, which is an agency of UNESCO. And that's a
23:38
conference that's held every four years for ministers of education,
23:42
and almost all ministers around the world go to that conference. I don't know whether
23:46
it still exists, but the one in 2008, which I was also involved in,
23:49
was called Inclusive Education the Way of the Future.
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Now, in a way, that was another turning point moving
23:57
on from Education for all, moving on from Salamanca, because what that conference
24:02
was saying is inclusive education is about all children.
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The focus is on all children. It's not about looking at a particular
24:09
group of children. And of course, in looking at all children.
24:13
That's why the notion of categorising can be such a barrier,
24:17
really, because there are many children who have difficulties in our schools who are not
24:21
categorized, not labeled, not a special provision. And of course, that's why this
24:25
is a school improvement project that we're talking about.
24:28
So I think there has been progress, and I think sustainable development goal
24:33
4 in 2015 was very important in suggesting
24:37
that this was the phrase they used. This is a transformative agenda
24:42
addressing the challenge of inclusion and equity. And I think the notion
24:46
of the transformative agenda is what I'm all about,
24:50
really, that this isn't a separate project, it's the core business of
24:54
what an education system is doing. Occasionally when I get a chance to talk to
24:58
ministers or senior civil servants, I say to them,
25:02
don't have a policy for inclusive education. And when I say that,
25:06
I see people go, I say, no, don't have a policy. If you have a
25:09
policy, it's somebody's job. You can have a committee or a group. It's not somebody's
25:13
job, it's everybody's job. Right. The idea that this is about transforming your
25:18
education system to make it more fitter for purpose in
25:22
terms of the kind of children and communities that's there. It's about dealing
25:26
with diversity, of course. And I say that, you know, I'm speaking
25:30
to you from the city of Manchester, which you know is probably the most important
25:33
city in the world. As you well know, Manchester is a post industrial city,
25:37
very famous because football, of course, and it has
25:40
one of the most successful education systems in the United Kingdom. Now, it's a
25:45
city which has lots of poverty, but it has one of the most successful education
25:49
systems. And I written recently an
25:53
article about why I think it is so successful. And it's a complex issue,
25:57
but one of the issues that strikes you very clearly in
26:01
our Manchester schools, 150 languages are spoken.
26:06
Wow. Second only to New York. 50% of
26:10
our children are bilingual. They speak a different language at home than they do in
26:14
the school. Now, that used to be an enormous problem, and of course it still
26:17
can be a problem. But clearly what's happened over the last 20, 25 years
26:21
is that the system has matured in learning, that this
26:25
diversity, as well as being a challenge, is an opportunity
26:30
to innovate. And I think various other factors,
26:33
particularly emphasizing the importance of collaboration between schools,
26:37
has led to the maturing of the system and the strengthening of practice
26:41
in relation to how we use diversity to
26:45
stimulate innovation. That's why I keep saying this is not
26:49
a separate issue. It's how you reform and strengthen your educational
26:53
system and to get that across to people. And I have to say, sometimes the
26:57
things I hear from colleagues here in this country, maybe in your
27:01
country, whose background, like me, is in special education,
27:04
unintentionally, if we're not careful, they become a barrier.
27:08
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you've been using the language all learners,
27:11
you know, all students. You, you have used that on your work all these
27:16
years. Do you think rather than focusing
27:20
primarily in such groups of students with disabilities or students
27:24
with disabilities for certain minority backgrounds,
27:28
do you think, because, let me rephrase this. Some disability
27:32
scholars argue that this universal framing that says all students, all students,
27:36
all students can unintentionally make disability and other
27:40
forms of marginalization less visible or have
27:45
less attention within the inclusive education model. How do you respond
27:49
to those concerns? Well, I can see the argument, but if I think about
27:53
places that I know that are relatively mature in this respect,
27:57
I don't see that. I see probably the opposite, a sensitivity
28:01
to diversity. You see, when I work in different countries
28:05
and doing workshops or whatever, I often say to them, who are
28:09
the most vulnerable groups in your country? Who are the most vulnerable groups?
28:13
And of course, the answer is very different depending where you are.
28:17
If you're in Southern Europe, it's quite likely to be the
28:22
Roma children of the Roma tradition. If you're in parts of
28:25
Africa, it's likely to be girls, particularly teenage girls. If you
28:30
come to my country here in England and ask might be the question, who are
28:33
the most vulnerable groups? The most vulnerable groups are white
28:37
working class boys living on public housing estates.
28:41
They're the boys who don't go to school. They're the boys who get excluded.
28:45
Those are the boys who don't do very well in the tests and the examinations.
28:48
So that's why I keep stressing context matters. Who you focus on depends
28:53
on where you are, and that's why evidence is so crucial.
28:57
And I often say, who speaks for those groups? Who speaks for the
29:02
white working class boys? You see, we have here very active parent
29:06
groups of disabled children. We have groups of
29:10
disabled adults. The argument is constantly being put
29:13
forward to politicians, and rightly so, but who speaks for the white working
29:17
class boys who are not attending and getting into difficulty? And in some
29:21
cases, sadly, that's likely to lead to a world of crime. You see, you can't
29:25
throw children away. You think you can, you know, but they're still
29:29
there and they'll come back and bite you at some point in some other way,
29:32
really. So it's a complex issue and I don't want to pretend it's not.
29:36
It needs to be discussed and articulated. And that's why I think that question,
29:40
who are the most vulnerable children in your system? Is a
29:44
good starting point. Yeah. And in the schools, right. Your work is very contextual.
29:48
I always challenge teachers and schools to look
29:52
at who are the students who are facing most barriers in participation,
29:57
access, instruction. So I think that try to take A very
30:01
contextual approach to understanding who is the students
30:05
that may need the most help. You know, you mentioned Salamanca and
30:09
I have a curiosity was, have you
30:12
now looking 40 years back, right. Have you 30
30:16
in it, isn't it? 30. 30. 30. Oh, 30. Sorry.
30:21
Would you have changed anything looking back?
30:24
Well, it was a. You know, again, when I sometimes tell the story of Salamanca,
30:28
slightly jokingly, but it's probably true. I mean, if you've not been to
30:32
Salamanca, it's a wonderful city, it's a beautiful place to visit.
30:35
Lovely Plaza Mayor. An ancient university is a
30:39
gorgeous place. And the delegates at the conference, they were people from governments,
30:43
people from parent organization, people from universities.
30:47
You know, they had a fantastic time. And every evening we had
30:51
banquets and wine and tapas.
30:55
You know, I remember saying to somebody on the last day, by now these people
30:59
will sign anything. You know, they were so happy with what had
31:02
gone on. So I don't want to overstate it, but I
31:06
don't think any of us who were there would think that 30 years later we
31:10
would still be talking about its influence. But we are still. And I think the
31:13
Salamanca statement stands up still. I mean, there was a lot of dispute,
31:17
as you can imagine, about what should be in it. I mean, they used to
31:20
talk about the Salamanca Agreement. Well, actually, it was the Salamanca
31:25
disagreement. And on the last afternoon, on the Friday,
31:28
the final session was chaired by my colleague Peter Mittler from
31:32
here, from the University of Manchester. They had a draft of the statement which
31:36
had been prepared beforehand, in fact, and they went through it and there were
31:41
two groups that were really very uncomfortable in general.
31:45
One were people representing the deaf community. And they
31:49
said they didn't think that statement recognized the nature of their
31:53
world and their existence as a
31:57
community. But the other group were political representatives
32:02
from some east, sorry, some West European countries,
32:07
the Netherlands, Belgium and France. And their argument
32:11
was that the statement didn't pay enough attention to the expertise
32:15
in special education. They were very vehement about that.
32:19
And if you read the document carefully, you'll see there's been some very careful crafting
32:24
to take account of those views as what happens
32:28
with these political events. But it's interesting, 30 years later, if you look
32:32
at the data now across Europe, where are the most
32:35
segregated systems in Europe? The Netherlands,
32:39
France and Belgium. Belgium. History started a long time
32:44
ago. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
32:47
You know, it's interesting, colleagues in those countries, because I know there
32:51
is very, very. I mean, I work a lot in the Netherlands and there's very
32:53
good practice there as well. Of course, but it is a very sophisticated system.
32:57
Yeah, I know. I, I know Germany too has from early
33:02
on a very b forcated system where from
33:06
early on children go to very different routes that that continues to occur.
33:11
You know, one of the, I think some of,
33:15
one of the many major contributions you have is, and you mentioned this in the
33:19
interview, is moving from attending to individual students to changing
33:23
schools. Why do you think, as you say, we're like 30 years later
33:27
having similar conversations that we had 30 years ago?
33:30
Why do you think systems level change,
33:33
it's so difficult and
33:37
why you think there's been maybe not as much change as we
33:42
have wanted to in the 30 years? Well, I mean,
33:45
it's a complex issue. And I mean, in a sense, it's the issue in one
33:49
way or another that I concentrate on most of my time trying to understand why
33:53
it is difficult to bring about reform at the level of systems, but also at
33:57
the level of schools. And I mean, you have to remind yourself that,
34:02
you know, education policy is created at all levels.
34:05
Of course, governments make policy, local authorities make policy,
34:09
but ultimately the most important policy is, is the teacher in the
34:13
classroom. It's the teacher that makes policy as far as the children concerned.
34:17
And of course, that's why it's so difficult to bring about the change.
34:20
You need to have a common understanding at every one of those
34:23
levels. And it takes time. And that's why I think, you know, to go back
34:27
to Portugal. There's been progress, I think in Italy as well,
34:30
obviously in some of the northern European countries,
34:33
Norway, Iceland, of course, in those traditions, the idea
34:38
of a school for all goes back to the 19th century. So history plays
34:42
a part in, in all of this. But there's no doubt that education systems and
34:46
schools are amongst the most difficult institutions to change in
34:50
our society. That's why it's so fascinating, you know, and I think for people who
34:54
are interested in this theme, it's a playground in terms of research, trying to
34:57
understand this and try, try to make things happen, you know, try,
35:01
try things out. You know, somebody wrote years ago, isn't it the best way to
35:04
understand an organization is by trying to change it? And I think in
35:08
a sense that sums up my approach. I try to work with people trying to
35:12
bring about change, trying to understand the particular barriers in particular places,
35:16
and then trying to bring people together to address those challenges.
35:21
I'm reminded of a story that I often tell which I think points
35:25
to the complexity of all of this. As I said, I work with, usually with
35:28
networks of schools, and one of the networks we worked with here in England was
35:32
a group of secondary schools in a particular local area.
35:36
And one of the second schools was very successful, very popular. 2000 students
35:40
oversubscribed. And as we. I say we,
35:44
because I don't do anything on my own. My colleagues and I, as we set
35:48
up this project, we asked them to set up a staff inquiry group. And we
35:52
always say to them, start from your hunches. Who do you think are the most
35:56
vulnerable children in your school? And they had this idea that
36:00
there were some children who were kind of marginalized, who were being
36:04
overlooked. So they collected some statistical evidence of the rewards
36:09
and punishments that young people
36:12
in the school were experiencing. And they experienced
36:16
quite a shock, really, because they found that something like 40%
36:20
of students never got a reward and
36:24
never got a punishment. When they decided they would have looked more closely
36:28
at these students and they described them as the individual,
36:31
sorry, the invisible students. They said, we've got
36:35
students who are invisible. And so with our help, they observed
36:39
the classrooms. They interviewed these students with
36:43
other students in groups, and we were part of that, helping them. And of course,
36:47
we heard stories of these young people who were not on anybody's
36:51
lists. They weren't regarded as vulnerable. But, you know,
36:55
often the kids would say to them, we go to lessons. These were 14,
36:58
15 year olds. We go to lessons. The teacher doesn't know my name,
37:02
Nobody ever uses my name. And you think, well, are these kids included?
37:06
Well, yes, they go to school every day, they wear the school uniform, as we
37:09
have here in the uk. They go to the classrooms. Most of them are well
37:13
behaved, they do their homework, but they are invisible. Now, I've told
37:17
that story to teachers in many different parts of the world. And as I'm telling
37:20
them, people are going, yeah, because they're thinking about kids in their school who
37:24
are invisible. That's why I'm saying getting trapped in these historical
37:29
special education categories is a barrier. We need to throw all that away
37:33
and start looking at the evidence, listen to kids,
37:36
observe what's going on, listen to families and identify the
37:40
barriers and work together to address those barriers. What happened in that
37:44
particular school? Of course, the following year they had a big staff development campaign to
37:49
make sure that every student's name was used in the classroom. And of course,
37:52
they talk as well as about making their practice more inclusive.
37:56
Yeah, like I was saying before, like, very contextual
38:00
look at your particular school or maybe district
38:04
where the students that are struggling the most or facing the
38:07
most barriers, which may change dramatically,
38:11
even, you know, you mentioned in England that white
38:15
working class, poor living in public housing were
38:19
excluded. But maybe in England also there'd be many different situations.
38:23
In other contexts, I imagine immigrant communities may be more vulnerable.
38:27
You know, very, very contextual.
38:30
Exclusion is very contextual. I guess that's the main point.
38:33
Absolutely, that's right. That's fundamental, I think.
38:36
Yeah. And I mean, one of the things that I think we've been circling
38:40
around and we haven't touched right on is the issue of teacher
38:45
training. Right. I hear you saying the importance of the teacher. The importance
38:49
of the teacher is the first one making policies, the one who's there on the
38:53
front lines making decisions first.
38:57
How would you think about teacher training from a university perspective?
39:02
1. And do you see some promising teacher
39:07
training, teacher learning approaches that we should be
39:11
looking at to develop teachers who have the capacity to include all students?
39:15
Yeah, I'd probably not use the word training
39:19
because that carries with it the idea that somebody's got the answer,
39:23
going to give it to people. I think, again, that's part of the past,
39:26
really. I mean, building on what I've already said, the approach that I
39:31
would emphasize is the importance of professional learning going on in the school.
39:35
And schools that I see making progress. They have a powerful
39:39
emphasis, professional learning within the school. And so
39:43
teachers are given opportunities to see one another working because
39:48
it's a very lonely and isolated life. Teachers are
39:52
looking at other kinds of evidence. Obviously statistical evidence is a good starting point,
39:56
but also very importantly, listening to the voice of the students themselves.
40:00
I think we've only scratched the surface of the power of that of where
40:04
children and young people are asked to give their opinion of what's going on in
40:08
the school. Now, it's an interesting question then, about what is the role of the
40:12
university. And I'm sure there are different roles in the work that my colleagues
40:16
and I do. We see our role as being working with schools
40:20
in developing that kind of professional learning, and it's
40:24
led from within the school. And what we bring to the table is
40:28
expertise in collecting and engaging with evidence. We spend a lot of time on
40:33
that. A kind of collaborative action research approach, if you like.
40:36
But also, of course, we have access to literature that usually people haven't
40:40
got, so we can throw into the conversation ideas that might
40:45
stimulate the discussion. But I think to take that role as
40:49
university academics, we have to be kind of humble about
40:53
our own expertise, you know, and recognize,
40:56
you know, the expertise that's there in the school that we're trying to build on.
41:00
I mean, sometimes when I'm taking part in these meetings. Somebody in the meeting will
41:03
say to me of teachers in a school, somebody will say, well, look, Mel,
41:06
you're a professor. Tell us what to do, you know. And I say, well,
41:10
listen, put me in charge of one of your classes for an hour and you'll
41:14
see who are the experts in this. As you're in this room, the expertise is
41:18
there, but the problem with that is the expertise amongst
41:21
the teaching profession is largely inarticulate.
41:24
Teachers find it very difficult to talk about what they do. See,
41:28
I watch lots of lessons, and when I watch a lesson, if I can,
41:32
afterwards, I sit down with the teacher and I say, no, look, this is not
41:35
an inspection. This is not performance management. I'm trying to learn about your practice.
41:39
And I say, so let me tell you what I've just saw. Let me tell
41:43
you what I just heard. This is what the children said. This is what you
41:45
said. Now, when I do that, particularly with very experienced teachers,
41:49
they express surprise and they say, I don't
41:53
remember saying that. I remember doing that. Did I do that? And of course,
41:56
what it reminds people like me, living in the twilight zone of the education system,
42:00
is how difficult the job is. There isn't time to think.
42:04
There's nobody to talk to other than the children. You're in there for an hour,
42:08
you've got your plan. There's 30 other plans in the room. If your plan doesn't
42:11
fit their plan, then you're in difficulties. And when you see, as I often do,
42:15
very scary, skilled teachers who are dealing with that challenge,
42:19
creating an inclusive learning environment, you realize that
42:23
they're like jazz musicians. They improvise. They play the same
42:27
tunes over and over again. They have their own lesson plans, but each time they
42:30
do it, they're watching and listening and they're observing the responses
42:35
and so on and making adjustments. That's why I say they're like the jazz musician.
42:39
And of course, that's why teaching is so tiring. People who've not been
42:43
teachers can't understand that. You know,
42:46
why are teachers so tired? You know, they've got this short day, they've got
42:50
long holidays. They're surrounded by all these happy, smiling children.
42:53
And they're tired. Well, they're tired physically.
42:57
They're on their feet all day, moving around. They're emotionally
43:02
tired. They're being drawn. I'm talking about the role of the senior managers.
43:06
You know, they're the people who create the emotional turmoil sometimes. But in a way
43:10
that I think that we underestimate is Intellectually tiring,
43:13
this idea of on your own improvising.
43:17
And that's why a big challenge in the work I do
43:21
is trying to find a way of developing a language of practice within the school
43:25
where people can actually explain the detail of what they do, because it is the
43:29
detail that matters. So they can share expertise, but also become more.
43:33
In the phrase, you know, the self. What's the word? I've lost the phrase
43:37
now. But the reflective practitioner, somebody who can actually talk to
43:41
themselves about their practice. So for me, the development of a more inclusive school
43:45
has to include a massive investment in professional learning. But it has
43:49
to go on within the school and it has to be led from within the
43:51
school. And I think people from outside academics can play a
43:55
small role in all of that. And it's a small but significant role, I think.
43:59
Yeah, I mean, the idea that teaching
44:04
is intellectually and emotionally draining, I mean, I think that's right on. You know,
44:08
you gotta, you gotta respond on the spot. And you have to respond
44:11
on the spot, having in mind 20 something students
44:15
that are in your own classroom with different needs.
44:18
It's, it's, it's really an art and
44:21
so, so intense. It actually makes me think about the
44:25
beginning of a conversation, make me think for more effort about a soccer player or
44:29
football player in a field, you know, having to always be responding
44:34
to dynamics that are constantly changing. Right. And you,
44:37
you ask Messi, so tell us how you do it. Ah.
44:41
And he won't be able to tell you. He won't be able to tell you
44:43
how he does it. Just. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Tell a football player,
44:47
soccer player. I mean, what did you do at the minute, 20th of the game?
44:50
It's like, I don't know. I mean, it's something that happens in the moment.
44:54
That's fascinating. You know, I have a couple of questions during our interview,
44:58
Mel. One, it's about, you know, thinking about
45:03
areas in common of different perspectives on the
45:06
teaching and learning and inclusion and students with disabilities. You know,
45:10
I find it interesting where, because of your background, you have
45:14
to add and children with disabilities, it's like you're hooked on
45:18
the traditional North American special education paradigm.
45:21
And it is a real problem. It's a real problem.
45:24
You know, there are many children who are experiencing barriers and
45:29
many of them are not even noticed. And, you know, the invisible students have talked
45:33
about them. Really, this is not about any particular group of children.
45:37
It's about all children. That's my position. I'm absolutely clear on it.
45:40
Yeah, no, no, I totally understand. And I guess a lot of the audience
45:44
of the podcast are mostly concerned about inclusion
45:48
of students with disabilities. So that's one of the reasons. But you are totally right.
45:52
In the US when you talk about inclusion or inclusive education,
45:56
people's mind goes straight to students with disabilities. Right. But maybe,
46:01
maybe the phrase has got no much use anymore in North America because
46:05
of that. I mean, it clearly has a meaning which is in itself a barrier,
46:09
isn't it? Yeah, I think because in the US has
46:13
also been. There have been parallel struggles. Right. So you have,
46:17
in the 1960s and 50s and 60s,
46:20
the fight for racial integration. Right. That happened early on.
46:24
So that was brand new. Which is still going on.
46:28
Was still going on, yeah, it's still going on. Yeah. Six, 70 years before,
46:32
after that. Sorry. But because you have that, that had a name, remember?
46:36
That was racial integration. Right. That was, you know,
46:39
it had a different term, a different vocabulary, a different movement.
46:43
Right. The movement towards Christians with disabilities was a parallel,
46:48
different movement to that. And I think it had different terms
46:53
and different communities and different histories have
46:57
developed parallel. In the US Rather than converging,
47:03
we had published in this podcast a series that I did
47:07
with my colleague Sarah Diem, who she does racial integration. I do more work
47:11
with students with disabilities, and we brought people doing racial integration, inclusion, students with disabilities,
47:15
and putting to talk together. So for our audience, I encourage you
47:20
to look at our episodes of the mini series called Learning to
47:23
Live Together, because it brings those things together. You know, the issue
47:27
of inclusive disabilities and racial integration in the U.S.
47:31
it's quite dichotomized. But I would encourage.
47:35
I would encourage North Americans to look outside.
47:39
Yeah. I mean, it's such a big country and a big continent. I understand
47:42
why people are very much focused inwardly, but there is a world out there
47:46
and there are great things happening. I mean, another area where there's great developments
47:51
is Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone has had a big push on
47:55
inclusive education. The whole government has led it over many years,
47:59
and it's taken things forward at a system level.
48:03
I just think, you know, if people in the United States could look
48:07
outwards occasionally. Yeah. Look to your neighbors, see what they're doing.
48:11
Look to parts of Canada, for example. I mean, there's some very interesting developments in
48:14
some parts of Canada. Yeah, no, absolutely, there is.
48:18
There is a different tendency to look. To look inwards in many different ways in
48:22
the United States, maybe, because, you know, there's even. I think with.
48:25
It's a shortfall of scholars. And I, you know, I include
48:29
myself that, you know, because a Lot of the scholarships comes from the U.S.
48:33
right? People tends to look. Tends to look inside. And you
48:37
get in an echo chamber, right? You get in an echo chamber where you're looking
48:40
at your own problems and looking around on your
48:44
own ways to see things. Yeah, yeah, I am
48:47
sorry, I interrupted you. No, no, go ahead. No, I say I interrupted you.
48:51
Go. You go ahead. You know, to conclude our interview.
48:55
No, I like to finish with the same question to all our interviewees.
49:00
If you have to think about five to ten years from now,
49:05
what would you like, what change would you like to see
49:08
in inclusive education? I would want to
49:13
alter the question. What change would I like to see in education?
49:17
All right, I like it. Go ahead. You keep using inclusive education as being
49:21
something separate, and that's the problem, not the answer. What I
49:25
would like to see is a continuation of. Of the global movement towards
49:30
creating more effective education. I mean, it's a crisis. You know,
49:35
that conference in 1990 was organized because millions
49:39
of children were out of school, not going to enter any school.
49:42
The most recent estimate in the last six months from
49:45
UNICEF, I think, was that currently 270
49:50
million children around the world don't go to school.
49:54
They don't go to school because where they live, there is no school and there
49:57
are no teachers. So the global crisis of education is
50:02
one that we share, and it's there in the richest countries and the poorest
50:06
countries. And the concept of education for all, I think, is what I would want
50:10
to continue working on. And I think, you know, the sustainable development goal
50:14
for, I hope, will show some progress when
50:18
the crisis point will be 2030, when we
50:22
have to review what's happened. And at the moment, 270 million
50:26
children out of school. Now, that doesn't include the children in your country and my
50:30
country who are out of school because they can't be bothered to go or because
50:33
they've been excluded or suspended. You know, this is
50:38
a challenge. Every country of the world, the richest and the poorest, share. How do
50:41
we create education systems where every learner matters and matters
50:46
equally? So I hope we'll see continuing progress. I hope countries
50:50
will learn from each other. And I think we can learn from the poorer countries
50:54
of the world as much as we can learn from the richest countries. Because in
50:58
the poorest countries, often you see very creative people who have very
51:02
limited resources who realize that they want to make their lessons
51:06
successful and effective and inclusive, and so they invent ways
51:11
of working. And often those are the ways of working that have been reported
51:15
in the Western research Like, for example, I think of
51:19
a classroom I watched a lesson I watched in
51:23
Laos, the social republic of Laos, you know, a very isolated country.
51:27
And the teacher was using cooperative group work. Now, he knew
51:31
nothing about cooperative group work. He didn't even know the phrase. It's certainly not running
51:35
research. But he was a committed teacher who wanted to make
51:39
sure that every child got involved in the lesson. And he become quite skillful.
51:43
As I watched him, he was quite skillful at managing quite a large group of
51:47
children to work effectively in group work. So I think we have to.
51:51
We want a world where. And we're getting better at this in all sorts of
51:54
ways, I think. A world where people are learning from each other. And I think
51:57
those of us in the very richest country occasionally have to look outwards and be
52:01
a little bit humble and realize there are lessons to be learned from elsewhere in
52:05
the world. Yeah. You know, I love what you say, and I
52:09
want to put two challenges to that and see what you respond. It's not challenges
52:12
in the sense that two current events, I think that are going to be challenging
52:16
to this hope that you have for the 10 years. One is
52:20
all the increasing climate change that is going on. I wonder how
52:25
that's going to affect in terms of heat, flood,
52:28
earthquake, etc. And the other one is.
52:31
AI right. Yeah. I've shown you how to say that.
52:35
Yeah. And I think those are two big
52:39
challenges that we have in education for all. How are
52:43
you thinking about those things? No, no, if you'd have asked me, I might have
52:46
said the same. Two big challenges. And I guess history will look back
52:51
and say this was a kind of monumental period of change. And,
52:55
I mean, the world is facing those two massive changes and, you know,
52:59
to varying degrees, most of us don't know how to deal with it. So I
53:02
think that that certainly is on the agenda. There's no doubt.
53:05
Yeah. Well, my last question is, can I change your mind and begin
53:10
to cheer from Argentina instead of from England as we move into probably,
53:14
hopefully semifinals? Argentina, England. Yeah. No, if England drop out, I'm going to be cheering
53:18
for Spain. All right, all right, all right. Well,
53:21
all right. I still. I still like you, Mel. I still like you.
53:25
I probably invite you again to the show. No worries. Thank you so much for
53:29
being with us, for your wisdom and for sharing all your thoughts.
53:33
My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you
53:37
for listening to Dive Air. I hope you learned from this
53:41
episode as much as I did. Please help us to spread the word about the
53:45
show. See you next time.