Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #57 Microdose on DBT’s DEAR MAN: Mastering the Art of Asking for What You Want with Dr. Sameena Groves

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#57 Microdose on DBT’s DEAR MAN: Mastering the Art of Asking for What You Want with Dr. Sameena Groves · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

All right, we have a microdose episode coming because we have an another episode coming out in a little bit where we had some amazing guests come on and talk about communicating with parents and they threw out a term that we realized we haven't really Discussed yet, right, Liz? We thought, okay, hold on.Before we get people all confused about what that means, we're just going to pop out a Dear Men episode. And I think I had an amazing idea, which is to get my favorite person, my work wife, Dr. Samina Groves, to come on and do this. And it's really kind of a double whammy, because not only does that mean I get to see her, um, But it also means that our listeners get to hear from somebody who is so well versed in dialectical behavior therapy and one of the most thoughtful, conscientious therapists that I [00:01:00] know.And so I am so excited to have you on. Hi,so excited to be here. Hi, Liz. Hi, Sarah. Actually, Sarah, without you realizing it, you used the dear man skill to get me to be here. So, It works, it works is the headline and we will spend a few minutes today just kind of going through how this thing works and why it works. But yes, I'm thrilled to be with you guys very briefly.I am a therapist, a clinical psychologist in New York. I primarily work with high school students, college students, adults. Who are coming in because something in their life is just not working. Uh, they're often complaining of anxiety or depression or both. And my job is to try to help them live with greater ease and to become more skillful and to enjoy their lives more to make their relationships deeper, more [00:02:00] meaningful.It's 1 of the best jobs on Earth.It really is. I always say it's like such a privilege that people come in and you get to the, you know, kind of the honor of being with them through these times. But, um, I think I should mention that the reason I had to Dear Man is because despite the fact that Samina is somebody who people go to all the time for advice, I'm lucky enough to have her in my consultation group, um, she's not a self promoter.If anything, she's the opposite. So to get her to come on and share her clinical knowledge publicly,It requires some skillfulness on your part. It'sdid. I was like, I know this is a big ask, but I'm going to do it. Since I moved to Tennessee, I know that, you know, I feel like I can get you to do more things now.exactly. Exactly. So, so this skill that we're going to talk about today is all about trying to increase the likelihood that somebody is going to do something you would like them to do. Or it, it can be a skill that's used to help you say no to something you don't want to do. [00:03:00] So we call it an assertiveness skill.And I don't know about you guys and your clients, but I find for me, and for most people, I know being assertive is not something that comes naturally to a lot of people and we see in our lives. I mean. We're probably all guilty of it, too. Lots of other ways of trying to influence people, right? Whether it's through passive aggressiveness or the silent treatment or gossiping or threatening or using hostile speech or being too subtle, there's all kinds of ways that we do influence one another, but they're rather unskillful.And so, even if they sort of work quote unquote in the moment. In the long term, they don't really enable you to learn how to get your needs met more skillfully. So that's what this skill is all about . And it's 1 of the most beloved, reliable skills in dbt.DBT loves to have those little mnemonic debate, right? Like they love to create a [00:04:00] word to have. Yeah.yeah, we love an acronym. We love anof its charms.Yes, yes. So, how about I kind of run you through just what each of the letters stands for and then maybe we can apply it to an example.Yeah.Sounds good. Yep.I want to hear your spiel. I'm excited. No pressure.so Deer Man obviously has 7 letters and they each stand for 1 of the ingredients for what makes for a good request. So the 1st 1 is describe and this is where we just kind of lay out what the situation is. We're going to come back through this with an example.So no need to fret. But it's basically where we just describe a situation that we're observing and we do it concisely without a lot of judgment actually without any judgment and we just stick to the facts. The next part is we come in and express why this whole situation matters to us. Why, what is, [00:05:00] how do we feel about it?Again, without judging the other person or attacking them or anything like that. We're just sort of saying, here's why this matters. The next part is what we call assert, and this, this I think is the hardest little ingredient in the whole thing. It's where we come in to ask for what it is that we want. Or to say no to something that someone else is trying to get us to do.And it's often the thing that I find most people feel most uncomfortable with. They, they view it as like, I'm confronting somebody, or this, this feels too threatening or too big, but we'll, we'll talk about some ways to kind of right size that and make it feel more palatable. Then the next part, the R in dear man is all about reinforcing or rewarding the other person.So why, why would they do this thing for you? What's in it for them? And it's not the case that we're trying to bribe people, but we in relationships are always influencing one another. And so to make it over why this person kind of stands to, to gain from giving you [00:06:00] the thing that you want. It's helpful to make that explicit.yeah. and some of the other strategies used and can be really powerful for people to say, Oh, okay, this is a way for me to explain how this could work for both of us.Right. I, and I like that you, the caveat that it, I think some people feel like it's like manipulative or they're doing something, um, that feels wrong, but I think it's helpful to remember that all behavior occurs in a context and that we're constantly influencing each other and, you know. Being mindful about what's in it for someone, um, or what could be positive about kind of an, this outcome is, um, only going to help someone motivate them to potentially change their behavior.I think a lot of times it's just making something explicit that would have happened anyway, probably. Right.[00:07:00] Right.family does this skill live in, it's all about strengthening relationships. And so we're talking about reinforcing people for doing things on our behalf. That is a way to strengthen the relationship. So, yeah, I'm with you. I like the R as well.So, the, the deer, I think of the deer part that describe, express, assert and reinforce as kind of, like, the meat, the substance of the request. And then this next part, the man is sort of like, how do you do it? How do you go about it? So, the M stands for mindful, which is essentially how you're coming across when you make the request.So, are you able to just sort of stay focused on this 1 thing, instead of getting pulled into different conversations or becoming defensive, particularly if the person you're speaking to starts curveballs your way. We're just trying to stay on track to accomplish this 1 request. And so we may end up repeating ourselves.It's kind of like, you know, on Spotify, when you click, like, the little repeat [00:08:00] icon, so you hear a song over and over again. Like, that's, that's maybe what we need to do sometimes is just say it to the, you know, make sure that the person has really heard us. The A in the man stands for appear confident, and this is really important, right?Because if we are asking somebody to do something for us, or for to change their own behavior, we want to come across as confident as we, we make this request. We don't want to whisper. We don't want to demand. We want a calm, neutral, firm tone so that we. Um, are respecting ourselves when we say it this way, but also increasing the likelihood of being respected by somebody else.And then lastly, sorry to interrupt, I was going to say, and I like that it, I don't think it's an A just because they needed to say man. I think it's an A because act confident is really important, right? Because you can act confident without feeling confident, kind ofput such a good point.that [00:09:00] show confidence because you might not feel confident, butyou such a good point. Yeah. Fake it till you make it. Yep. For sure. Yep. And then the end is just negotiate and not every dear man will require this, but sometimes you kind of got to get into the weeds with somebody and be willing to flex or to give them something that they really would want in order for them to give you the thing you want.So, um, we'll, we'll kind of. Bring this to light with an example. So anything I left out before we kind of go through an example, how you might apply this. Oh,sure I get all the points. Oh,thought I actually had three different, um, sessions yesterday in which we were going through dear man. Maybe it was because I was thinking about it for this conversation. I was like, how about we practice dear? [00:10:00] I thought we'd use one of those, which was. In the context of a college student client of mine living in a suite, so she has 3 roommates and they have a kitchen and the kitchen is a source of both convenience and, you know, they're able to make food and it's a real upgrade from like freshman year living, but it's also the source of a lot of contention.And so what they have attempted to do is sort of divide and conquer what different chores are in the space. And my client was describing to me coming out of her room in the morning and seeing that the dishes weren't done by a roommate who had committed to doing it the night before. So that actually kicks off our describe already.Right? So, if she wants to raise this with the, the reluctant roommate, or the roommate who's slacking on her chore, she would say something really simple and straightforward. Like, Hi, you told me you were going to wash the [00:11:00] dishes last night when you, before you went to bed. But when I came out of my room this morning, the sink was still full, right?So it's a description. It's sticking to the fact. She's not kind of loading it with a lot of other stuff. She would then move into the e, the express how she feels about it. So she might say something like, I felt really frustrated and disappointed that the dishes were still there, particularly because it made me hard.It made it hard for me to make breakfast. Right? Just sort of saying. Why her behavior impacted you? How did you feel about it? And then the assert. So what is it that you would want to happen in this situation? Well, what she wanted was that the roommate would do the dishes right then and there. So, the ask the assert is, can you please do the dishes now?There are many other things that could come up in this, you know, like, could you please do the dishes today before I'm back from class? There's ways to be flexible, but you want to ask for what it is that you want. And for her, it was a clean sink and dishes to be [00:12:00] able to use to eat from, right?FairThe are the are the reinforcing is basically.Why would the roommate do this? Clearly, the roommate is not wanting to do the dishes or not prioritizing doing the dishes. Right? So my client was talking about, you know, it really helps all of us. Feel less stressed in the space when the dishes are done, or even something like, I'm a lot less cranky and stressful, you know, when the dishes in the kitchen is clean, I'm easier to live with.I think I make your life easier, you know, or. Um, I just really appreciate it when you do your part, you know, it really adds to the overall feeling of, like, we're in this together. So, sometimes the reinforcing is just letting a person know that you appreciate their behavior. And sometimes you're tying it to something that feels more personal about you or the relationship, right?Kind of back to that relationship piece. And then the MAM is, again, how my client would bring [00:13:00] this up with her roommate is appearing mindful, staying calm, not getting thrown off course, or, you know, talking about tit for tat, who's done what, it's just not the point of this particular request. And then the negotiate could be something even along the lines of how about I keep you company while you do the dishes.Or if you're able to do the dishes right now, I'll make you an egg sandwich on my way out. You know, that would be a generous Way to entice the roommate to do the dishes right then and there. Um, so that's sort of a quick application. By the way, a dear man is it can be less than a minute, right?Particularly when you practice this doesn't need to be. A speech, this doesn't need to be an address. Although I, I will say a lot of times when working with clients to learn it, writing it out, actually writing down the skill and writing out what you might want to say is incredibly helpful. I've had a lot of clients do this in the context of [00:14:00] dear manning a parent and knowing that they're likely to either kind of lose their will to do it, or they're worried about getting shut down quickly that to be able to go through and actually articulate.How would I handle that? What would I say? What's a message that this person is likely to hear? Doing that work up front, I think can lead to a better outcome a lot of times, particularly as you're learning the skill.Right. And it also, when you're talking about the go back 15 seconds piece, if you have a piece of paper in front of you, it can help you stay mindful, too, I think, just especially because it's one thing about the dishes. Yes, that would be really frustrating or knowing me, I'd probably be the, Remain who didn't do the dishes.You know, I'd have to be getting the dear man. But I think that I think that, um, Samina's like, Ha ha, yep.I laugh because it's true.But I think that some of the conversations people are having, you know, with parents or some, something more difficult, it can get, it could be emotional. You can be really emotional [00:15:00] during a dear man. And. Even if you're doing the man part and being mindful and staying calm, it can feel really hard and important.So I think that having some sort of written anchor can just keep you tied to it because otherwise it can be really easy to get thrown by a comment that's come up before, some sort of older patterns that come up. When you've been trying a different strategy for so long, but I will say one of the, when we were doing a dbt group forever ago, back to me and when we were at NYU and a mom said that what was kind of great about once both people had learned, like once the parents and their teen had learned it and her son came in, he wanted to go to a concert.She said, no, he started screaming and she said, she goes, Oh, stop, stop, stop, dear man, dear man. It was like,Uh huh. Uh even it was almost like, hold on. Let's start again. And even just having that term allowed them to negotiate a situation where both felt satisfied, um, and [00:16:00] he got to go to the concert, but with some caveats, right?Yes, and I mean, look with all of us at any stage of life, dear man is applicable, but I think we can come up with so many instances for college students where all day long. They need to ask people for help, or they need to ask people to change their behavior. They're living communally. They have professors.They have deadlines. They've got coaches. There's a lot of application for this skill. Can we also just speak really quickly about using the skill to say no to something? Because I think sometimes that gets a little overlooked. So sometimes. You know, a college student might be put in a position, maybe invited to a party or a little peer pressure when it comes to doing something physically that they're not quite ready to do or cheating kind of comes up.Will you do this for me? I think there's situations that can be very uncomfortable and learning how to say no. Is a really important life [00:17:00] skill, um, without apology, right? We talk about this when we talk about the fast scale, keeping yourself respect is about being able to say no to someone without apologizing, apologizing, apologizing.I think it's also really important life skill when we think about dating and ghosting. I'm sure you guys have talked about this in other contexts, right? A lot of times when people feel like they can't say no, or I'm not interested in you or no, thank you. They will engage in this behavior called ghosting, right?Where they just disappear. And for the person getting ghosted, it is so it can be so confusing and it can be so hurtful. So, to start being a person who says, you know, this was a really fun night. I don't think I'm interested in a 2nd date. I wish you all the well, you know, I wish you well and, you know, you can even just make a little reference to something you enjoyed getting to know about them again.It doesn't have to be a speech, but it could be something along the lines of. You know, I'm not interested right now, or I promised myself I wouldn't date [00:18:00] anyone seriously right now, or, you know, the fit for me didn't feel right on. I think you're fantastic. I hope you find someone that you're looking for, you know, there is a way to be firm and kind at the same time and declining. Somebody's request of youright. Cause the person might feel hurt, but it doesn't come with that extra layer of confusion and trying to second guess, you know, so it is, is the more gentle way to do things and the braver way.Yes, exactly. And I think that's, you know, we talk a lot as therapists about helping our clients. Live according to their values and if you are a person who really does care about being authentic or having integrity or being a self respecting or being kind that can help inform. This sort of little dear man in which you're saying no to somebody or I'm sorry, or not right now, or that's not for me, you know, there's a lot of different applications.And if you're a grade a [00:19:00] asshole, you're probably not listening to this microdose episode, so don't worry about it. Keep ghosting, man. Okay.the 1 thing I want to tie back to, I feel like some things were said to this is. And we talked about this in earlier episodes, like, these states of mind, we can kind of be in is that. This is a skill that you want to make sure that you're using when your emotions have cooled down enough. And I think that's where writing can be really helpful.You can kind of catch yourself with interpretations or assumptions or using like really extreme language. Like you never do the dishes. Right. Um, and that's probably a time that you want to take a step back and, and wait until your emotion has cooled down before you try to implement this skill. Cause we usually, when people come back to me and they're like, it didn't work, this still sucks.Um, In my experience, it's because their emotions were too intense, that they either non verbally were giving off. An aggressive kind of vibe or their worry thoughts got in the way of [00:20:00] them being able to like fully, you know, say no. Um, so I just think like, kind of tuning into what are your signs that your emotions are, are maybe too intense and not that you can't use the skill, you just have to find a way to regulate those emotions so that you can, you know, put your best dear man forward.Youcan't scream everything. didn't do the dishes! This makes meit's such a good point. It's such a good reminder. I had a session with somebody last night. Where we attempted, like, we started a Dear Man for her to, um, get her romantic needs better met. She was looking for more affection from her boyfriend, and she was actually more dysregulated than I realized.She was more upset about it, and going into the Dear Man just made her irate at what she wasn't getting. And I wish I had you there in my ear to be like, Abort mission! Practice distress tolerance! podcast [00:21:00] episode! Forgetabout it! I was like, but we're going to do all 7 letters. No, no, at a certain point. I was like, oh, okay.We need, we need a different skill right now. But it's such a good point. It's like, in order to be able to appear confident and stay mindful, you have to be regulated. You have to be in your body. It's helpful to be in reasonable mind or wise mind when that's happening. When you're in emotion, not the best time to try to get your needs met.Yeah, Well, this was short, but sweet.Love it.yeah. And, uh, I will see you, Samina. I'll find another reason to hang out with you soon. Don'tOkay, perfect.And you did such a good job here that I don't even think I need to do dear man. We'll just have you on as a regular guest. SoundI know. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for shining the light on the fan favorite. And it wasYeah, it was so good to see you guys. Thanks for having me. [00:22:00]