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Church for Everyone: Why the Future Church must be Multi-Ethnic, Multi-Generational, & Mission-Driven · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dan
0:49
Kreiss and Ephraim Smith to the
0:52
program. Dan is the Associate
0:55
Minister for Mission and Community outreach
0:58
at uh, Roswell Presbyterian Church in the greater
1:01
Atlanta area. He was previously
1:03
professor of Youth ministry and dean of the
1:06
School of Missions at King University in
1:09
Bristol, Tennessee. Ephraim Smith
1:12
is the co lead pastor of Midtown
1:15
Church, a thriving multi ethnic
1:18
community in Sacramento, California.
1:21
His books include Raising Up Young
1:23
Heroes and the Post Black and
1:26
Post White Church. A reminder,
1:29
before we start today's conversation, please take a
1:32
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
1:35
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
1:38
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
1:41
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
1:43
email@laurensonatemediaproah.com
1:48
with comments, questions or ideas for
1:51
future episodes. We appreciate your
1:53
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
1:56
the church.
2:07
>> Loren: All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is
2:10
Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
2:13
today by Dan Kreiss and Ephraim uh,
2:15
Smith.
2:16
>> Dan Kreiss: Hello.
2:17
>> Loren: Welcome to the podcast.
2:19
>> Dan Kreiss: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
2:21
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for being here. Uh, let's
2:24
begin. We do have two of you. So, um, and we do.
2:27
It sounds like we have some time limitations, but Dan,
2:30
uh, start with you would just about your
2:32
journey of faith, your background, what that looks like and how you got to where
2:35
you're at today.
2:37
>> Dan Kreiss: Sure. So, uh, yeah,
2:40
a journey of faith that could take a long time. But essentially I've spent a
2:43
whole lot of time, um, serving in ministry. Most
2:46
of that lay ministry, not pastoral ministry all over the
2:49
world. I spent about 17 years in New
2:51
Zealand working with indigenous peoples in New
2:54
Zealand and also as chaplain counselor of a
2:57
boys school. Uh, New Zealand. If you know anything about,
3:00
uh, Australia, New Zealand, it's very much a post
3:03
Christian nation where, you know, 4 or
3:05
5% maybe, uh, have any Christian
3:08
affiliation. So that's definitely influenced and
3:10
shaped uh, my understanding of
3:13
faith and the response particularly of
3:16
emerging generations. In returning back to the United States.
3:19
And so now just recently
3:22
was uh, serving as missions pastor at
3:25
Roswell Presbyterian Church, but just took a call and so
3:28
start in about two weeks, um, as head
3:31
of staff at Lake Murray Presbyterian Church just
3:34
outside of Columbia, South Carolina.
3:36
>> Loren: Okay. Wow. It's
3:39
exciting.
3:41
>> Dan Kreiss: It's something.
3:42
>> Loren: Yeah. Ephraim, how
3:45
about you?
3:46
>> Ephraim Smith: Yes, I am originally from Minneapolis,
3:49
Minnesota. And um, and
3:52
so I grew up in the church. I grew up in the African American
3:55
church, uh, in the uh, National Baptist
3:58
Convention, uh, but I also was
4:00
deeply impacted by an Evangelical Methodist
4:03
church that existed in Minneapolis, uh,
4:07
that became very multiracial over time. It was
4:10
a predominantly, well it was an
4:12
exclusively white church at one point. But
4:15
as the neighborhood changed because families like mine
4:18
moved in, many, uh, white churches had to
4:21
decide if they would stay, uh, in
4:24
these parts of the city of Minneapolis or would they move
4:27
to the suburbs and stay exclusively white
4:30
congregations. Park Avenue United Methodist Church
4:33
made the decision to stay in the community. They lost
4:36
a number of their members because of that. But over
4:39
time they regrew as a
4:42
multiracial, multi ethnic church. So I'm
4:44
simultaneously influenced by the
4:47
African American church and uh, the
4:50
evangelical multi ethnic church.
4:53
Gave my life to Christ in high school,
4:56
um, was a theater and
4:58
communications major in college. My wife's
5:01
grandfather, um, as well as my youth
5:04
pastor had a significant influence on me
5:07
seeing, sensing, ah, a call to
5:09
ministry. So um, I was a
5:13
youth uh, pastor, a high uh school
5:15
basketball coach in
5:17
Minneapolis, uh for about 12
5:20
years. Then planted a church called
5:23
the Sanctuary, uh, in a
5:25
denomination called the Evangelical Covenant Church
5:28
in 2003. Pastored that church for
5:31
seven years. From uh, there I became a
5:33
superintendent in our denomination. That's how I made
5:36
my way to California. And then the
5:39
last seven years I've been the co,
5:42
uh lead pastor at Midtown Covenant
5:45
Church we call ourselves, we're a
5:47
multicultural metropolitan
5:50
multi campus church, um,
5:53
in the heart of the city and beyond.
5:56
Uh, so that's what I'm up to now. Married
5:59
with uh, two adult daughters
6:02
and a son in law.
6:03
>> Loren: Awesome. Share if you would. Ephraim and Dan will
6:06
ask you the same question too about spiritual practices.
6:09
Anything that's meaningful for you, you're willing to
6:12
share.
6:13
>> Ephraim Smith: Yes, I mean for me, uh, prayer
6:16
walks have become uh, an important
6:19
part of my spiritual practice is just kind of you
6:22
know, getting out. You know, now that I live in
6:25
California and not Minnesota, I get outside all
6:28
year round basically. And so I just like
6:30
getting out and looking at the mountains, looking at the sky,
6:33
you know, spending uh, time with the Lord,
6:36
listening, walking uh, but
6:40
regular um, time in the Word,
6:43
not just for sermon development but for me
6:45
personally is important.
6:48
And um, I have a
6:51
small group of men that I'm involved with. And
6:54
so my spiritual practices include
6:57
prayer, silence
7:00
in the Word, but also being in a
7:02
smaller community of other brothers that
7:05
are journeying with me.
7:07
>> Loren: Mhm. Dan, how about you?
7:10
>> Dan Kreiss: Yeah, for me, uh, much like
7:13
Ephraim, I love the out of doors and spend a lot of
7:15
time on uh, my road bike actually is a good place
7:18
to meditate and pray. But I've just recently
7:20
been rereading uh, with a small
7:23
group, Richard Foster's classic celebration of
7:26
discipline and kind of going through some of those
7:29
spiritual practices. Again I can't. You know, I've read that as
7:32
you probably have too multiple times. But keep going back to it
7:35
and being reminded and refreshed about some, some
7:38
really critical things and turn. Including things
7:41
like uh, confession and how
7:43
that takes place both individually and
7:46
corporately. Um, the,
7:49
the practice of solitude is, is really important to
7:52
me. You know, I think of a, a cyclist. You probably, if
7:54
you're in your area, you might have big groups of people that kind
7:57
of annoy traffic. Why I'd go all by myself
8:00
and that's, you know, that's, that's solitude and
8:04
um, time for meditation while at the same time uh,
8:07
being out uh, in nature. So those practices are really important.
8:09
And like Ephraim too as a, as a
8:12
pastor, coming to the Word, not just
8:15
for preparation for
8:18
communicating to somebody else, but really for your own spiritual
8:21
nurture is critical.
8:23
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that you both. Let's get
8:26
into this book where we looking to
8:29
talk about today. Dan and Ephraim are the
8:32
authors of Church for
8:35
Building a Multi Inclusive Community
8:38
for Emerging Generations. So I'm not sure
8:41
which one of you wants to take this answer
8:44
but talk uh, about kind of the goals and aims of the book,
8:46
sort of how it came to be, all that stuff.
8:49
>> Ephraim Smith: Well, I'll hand it over to Dan, uh,
8:52
because this project was his original idea
8:55
and I was very fortunate that uh,
8:58
he was open and agreed to allowing me to
9:01
join him in the development of this
9:04
resource.
9:05
>> Dan Kreiss: Okay, well and also to be
9:08
fair, it wouldn't have existed were it not for Ephraim. So it's definitely
9:11
collaboration. But it came out of much of my
9:14
experience like uh, I said in New Zealand and then coming back to the
9:17
United States and wondering, uh, I have
9:20
four adult children of my own and wondering why
9:22
Emerging Generations felt so uh,
9:25
disconnected from the church. Both
9:28
in New Zealand where I was working but also,
9:32
and more significantly here because
9:35
in the United States there's much more of a culture
9:38
of church participation. And yet it seemed like
9:41
the rise of the nones as they call it. N o N E
9:43
s seemed um, to be significant, uh,
9:46
amongst emerging generations. And that's concerning for
9:49
multiple reasons, but not least of which is the faith development
9:52
of individuals. And so
9:55
this book came about ultimately because
9:58
of uh, my own experience in the
10:01
university setting and talking with young people
10:04
and research, uh, and
10:07
writing that I was doing for my doctor and recognizing
10:10
that there seemed to be some soft
10:12
barriers, uh, that were communicating
10:15
things to the emerging generations in the
10:17
church, uh, that were off
10:20
putting to them and were
10:22
communicating something other than what I believed
10:25
was God's intent for the church. And
10:28
so as continue to write that and some
10:31
of that is this inclusive nature that we seem to be
10:34
very siloed. Mhm. In our
10:36
congregations. And that can be based on
10:39
ethnicity, but it can also be based on uh,
10:42
political ideology or socioeconomic status
10:45
or all that stuff. And yet in every other aspect of
10:48
uh, young people's lives they're involved
10:51
in multidimensional relationships of
10:54
ethnicity and socioeconomic standing and educational
10:56
level. And yet the church seemed to stand
10:59
out as a stark
11:02
distinction of siloed
11:05
congregation. That did not seem to be what I felt God was
11:08
communicating the church to be. And so that's where it came about. And then
11:10
discussions with Ephraim, uh, we kind of
11:13
collaborated and realized that much of our
11:16
passion lined up. And so
11:19
that's really how this book came about.
11:22
>> Loren: Yeah, I think one of the things that was interesting to me
11:25
is the way you try to have that
11:27
throughout the book as I read it, that kind of, that both
11:30
and nuance, uh,
11:33
tension holding both sides approach.
11:36
So one of the things that stood right out to me
11:38
was on page 38 you talk about how a church
11:41
should be both vertical in horizontal.
11:44
I think that's something that uh, I was just having this
11:47
conversation with as recording this, my
11:50
last guest, Dr. Walter Strickland.
11:53
Um, uh, in other conversations
11:56
I feel like this comes up too is this tension between
11:59
there's some churches that want to make Christianity
12:02
solely about me and God with no kind of practical
12:04
implications for our world today. And then I think
12:07
in some Christian circles there's this kind of like
12:10
Christianity is solely about me and my neighbor with really no
12:13
kind of supernatural implications. Talk about the
12:16
importance of Christianity and church being both
12:19
vertical as you say, and horizontal.
12:22
>> Ephraim Smith: Yeah, I mean, well, for me personally, um,
12:25
this comes out of again my
12:28
being influenced both by The African American
12:30
Church and uh, the Evangelical church for
12:33
me now specifically a denomination called the
12:36
Evangelical Covenant, which originally was
12:39
called the Swedish Covenant Church, but then I joined,
12:42
so they had to change the name.
12:45
But the Swedish Covenant Church in its origins was
12:48
about pietism, that me and
12:51
God. That pietistic
12:53
nature of I'm in God's word, I'm in
12:56
prayer, um, I'm growing
12:59
in my relationship with God and it's
13:01
impacting my life, my
13:04
formation, uh, out of the
13:07
African American Church. It wasn't that the African American
13:10
church doesn't emphasize that at all, but there's a
13:13
strong emphasis, at least in my upbringing in
13:15
it, of liberation.
13:17
>> Dan Kreiss: Mhm.
13:17
>> Ephraim Smith: That Jesus set us free
13:20
from sin, but also set us free
13:23
from the shackles of slavery.
13:25
>> Loren: Mhm.
13:26
>> Ephraim Smith: That Jesus reconciles
13:29
us unto God,
13:31
uh, because Jesus is God. And so
13:34
we find intimacy again with God through,
13:37
through Christ Jesus. But Jesus
13:40
cares about the marginalized Samaritan
13:43
woman. And so that's how
13:46
for me, uh, my
13:48
pastoring, uh, uh,
13:51
has been informed by both the vertical and the
13:54
horizontal that yes,
13:56
sanctification is a
13:59
major part of the Christian life.
14:02
But I also believe liberation is
14:04
too. Ah. Because sin is
14:07
not just in the soul of individual
14:10
human beings. Sin is also in
14:13
systems, in society.
14:15
>> Dan Kreiss: Mhm.
14:16
>> Ephraim Smith: Sin is in structures, in ideologies,
14:19
in institutions. And so we need
14:22
a justice and righteousness biblically
14:25
that can live itself out through the church that
14:28
recognizes both of these dimensions of sin.
14:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Something else that I want to talk about
14:34
here that I found interesting. And this came up
14:37
again, uh, in a previous conversation I had
14:40
with, uh, a guest, Brian Davis, who's
14:42
an evangelical worship leader. He talked
14:45
about in his context in
14:48
Denver, like, uh, many churches are moving.
14:51
Rather than the kind of mega church
14:53
commuter model. They're really trying to emphasize
14:56
a parish or neighborhood model approach to
14:59
church, which you all both write about. Dan, do you want to
15:02
talk about? Felt that shift from the kind of
15:06
huge attractional community church to really something
15:09
being more parish or neighborhood centered and
15:11
maybe define the word parish since
15:14
folks may not understand that in context.
15:16
>> Dan Kreiss: Sure, yeah, we do write about that quite a bit. That the
15:19
parish model is essentially, uh, taking
15:22
the structure, the building of your congregation or
15:24
where you meet, and then, uh, drawing
15:27
a circle around a mile wide or
15:30
whatever. It comes from the English, the
15:33
Anglican church, um, and where the
15:36
parish would be the town, the local town, and the
15:38
vicar would be the vicar for that entire
15:41
community, whether or not the people in that community darkened the
15:44
doors on a Sunday morning for worship. That that
15:47
was the person you went to when it was, you know, time to get married,
15:50
or there was someone sick that needed to be visited or there was
15:53
a funeral to be had, and that's. That person was
15:55
ministering, uh, regardless of
15:58
their understanding of faith and
16:01
hopefully ministering to them so that they come to faith. But
16:04
that's the parish model. And so what we've
16:06
had in the United States has been this,
16:09
uh, attractive, uh, almost
16:13
a marketing
16:16
purpose for church. And you know,
16:18
we have this. We talk about it a little bit, you know, in
16:21
the book about the principle
16:24
where we need to find our niche market and we're going to
16:27
develop a church specifically for them to attract them from
16:30
all sorts of neighborhoods. Um, and
16:34
the parish model says, well, actually where
16:37
we're located, there are all kinds of people in this
16:40
neighborhood that come from all different backgrounds and
16:43
perspectives and ethnicities and all that
16:46
stuff, and they belong in the church and that we actually
16:49
grow and learn more in our own faith and our
16:51
understanding of God if our community is
16:54
more diverse. And so that's really what the parish model is
16:57
encouraging.
16:59
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:00
>> Dan Kreiss: And it also doesn't have to be huge. Then, you know, it's not
17:03
this megalith. So the book is not
17:06
necessarily speaking to how to make your church bigger.
17:08
Church for everyone doesn't mean we're going to blow the
17:11
doors out because there's so many people coming. What it means is
17:14
that in my community, I'm serving
17:17
everyone.
17:20
>> Loren: Yeah. I think something, uh, that was
17:22
interesting is this shift of
17:25
again, being okay with.
17:28
Because again, when there's emphasis on kind of growth at
17:31
all costs. Right. There is this kind of shift of
17:34
what is the ultimate of value or it's the ultimate
17:37
of importance. Right. When it's growth at all
17:39
costs versus,
17:42
again, staying local, that
17:45
really, uh, changes the priorities. Right?
17:52
>> Ephraim Smith: Yes, I would agree with that. I mean, and
17:55
you know, I pastor what would be
17:58
deemed a mega church, but,
18:01
uh, where I believe even for us, we
18:04
need to pay attention to this
18:06
parish model, this parish expression
18:09
is, um. One of
18:12
the things that I've noticed over the years is
18:15
that the emerging generations,
18:19
uh, they don't like sitting in the traffic that
18:22
my generation's willing to sit in to get to work.
18:25
There are people my age and older that live
18:28
in Sacramento because it's much, uh,
18:31
more affordable to buy a house in Sacramento. But
18:34
they're getting up at 4:30 in the morning and they're
18:37
commuting to the Bay Area for work. And then
18:40
they're getting home at like
18:42
7pm in the evening just to start it all
18:45
over again the next day. But
18:48
there's a younger generation of people that they're like, I
18:51
want to live, work close to where I work
18:54
and I want to ride my bike to work.
18:58
If I've got somewhat of a commute, I want to ride the light
19:01
rail train to work. And so
19:05
even when I was pastoring back in North
19:08
Minneapolis sanctuary, uh, Covenant Church,
19:11
there were folks coming to our church,
19:14
younger, in their 20s, early 30s. They're
19:17
like, I'm a part of this church because I'm a
19:20
public school teacher, uh, a mile from
19:22
here and my family moved here. This
19:25
is my first time living in the inner city. I grew up in
19:28
a rural town or I grew up in a second ring
19:31
suburb, but I'm white,
19:34
I'm teaching in a predominantly African American
19:37
and Hispanic middle school and I want to live in
19:40
this neighborhood. So,
19:42
um, that, that, that
19:45
is leading itself
19:47
towards, uh, not uh, only a parish
19:50
model of like, I want to go to church
19:53
where I live, but it's also creating a model
19:55
of what are we doing to address the social
19:58
ills in this community. I have a vested
20:01
interest in seeing justice and seeing
20:04
disparities dealt with because I live here
20:07
now and I'm not just watching this on the news.
20:10
>> Loren: Yeah. And especially right when you're not driving by
20:12
it. Right.
20:14
>> Dan Kreiss: Yes.
20:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:16
>> Dan Kreiss: And we want to make it clear, Loren, that this book is not a
20:19
formula for growing your church. At least not growing
20:21
it numerically. Uh, again,
20:24
the purpose of it is to make it more the church
20:27
that God desires it to be. And that does not necessarily mean
20:30
numbers. And a matter of fact, you know, as
20:33
Ephraim already attested to in his church, growing
20:36
up, like potentially by becoming more inclusive
20:39
or more diverse. Some people will leave because
20:42
they are uncomfortable with that. So we just need to
20:44
be aware that this, you know, we don't want this to be another one of
20:47
those, those books where people pick it up and think, oh, this is what I
20:50
got to do to, to make my church bigger and compete
20:53
with the guy down the road. That's, that's not it at all.
20:56
>> Loren: Well, let's stay on that trend because I think one of the things that was
20:59
interesting to me that I, I think I kind of felt, but
21:02
I don't know if I've read on paper is you all,
21:04
uh, you all write that it's easier to start a
21:07
multi ethnic church than to become one. So Ephraim,
21:10
you certainly talked about that, you know, in your experience
21:13
growing up. Why? I mean, I suppose
21:16
it's obvious, but maybe Say it again. Like what. What
21:19
are some of the real challenges, uh, Ephraim, that
21:22
you experience? And Dan, you're welcome to speak in this as well,
21:25
that are sometimes too much to overcome. And
21:28
why starting that way is so much easier.
21:31
>> Ephraim Smith: Yeah. Well, the American church
21:34
begins in the American story, good and
21:37
bad. And so the
21:40
church has its origins in
21:42
the racial origins, the
21:45
racial tragedy. Uh, that is
21:48
our historic story. And so the
21:50
church, uh, is birthed in the midst of
21:53
slavery. It navigates its way through
21:56
reconstruction into Jim Crow
21:58
segregation. And so, uh, the
22:01
older the church is, the
22:03
more it is deeply, uh,
22:06
rooted in the soil of a
22:08
racialized society and all that comes with
22:11
that. Um, uh,
22:14
and this is not to say, oh, that means this
22:16
church is racist or something like that. It could also
22:19
mean this church started as a church
22:22
for Swedish immigrants. It started as a
22:25
church for, uh, Italian
22:28
immigrants, German, uh, immigrants.
22:31
And so, uh, or the church is
22:34
white in its culture. So when churches
22:37
that are already predominantly
22:39
exclusively white or black,
22:42
uh, an expression of Asian or
22:45
Hispanic, attempt to become multi
22:48
ethnic, a lot of times their
22:51
diversity is still built on assimilation.
22:54
We want anybody to come, but you're
22:56
assimilating into the established
22:59
culture that is already here versus
23:01
when you plant a church, there's a better
23:05
opportunity to start it,
23:07
uh, from the standpoint of
23:09
reconciliation versus the
23:12
standpoint of assimilation. So I'll give you a quick
23:15
example. Ah. When we planted sanctuary
23:18
in Minneapolis when we first started,
23:21
um, we used to have these multi
23:23
ethnicities, uh, dinners. And I would
23:26
encourage people to bring a dish that represented
23:28
their upbringing, their culture. So we had the
23:31
enchiladas next to the collard greens next to
23:34
the fried rice. We had sweet potato pie and
23:37
pumpkin pie. And I would say to people,
23:40
except for issues of allergies,
23:43
I'm asking you to get a little bit of everything.
23:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:46
>> Ephraim Smith: Because as we digest one another's
23:49
foods, this church is going to be predicated
23:52
in part on digesting one another's
23:54
stories, one another's pain, one
23:57
another's triumphs, one another's
24:00
cultures. It's easier to do that when
24:03
you plant a church than when you step into an
24:05
established church. Though through
24:08
Dan's contribution, uh, to the book,
24:11
he focused a little more than I did
24:14
on, there's still a challenge to the established
24:17
church if it doesn't want to die. Because
24:20
it's one thing to say this book is not about.
24:23
This book is definitely not about church growth, but it's
24:26
also about we don't want our church
24:29
to die. M. It's already in
24:31
decline. And so this
24:34
commitment to, um, being
24:37
more inclusive while remaining
24:40
biblical will keep churches that have
24:42
been around 100 years from dying.
24:45
>> Loren: Let's go into that, Dan, because y'all write in
24:48
the book about the importance of being willing to
24:51
experience discomfort, about why it's essential
24:54
for the dominant cultural group to permit other
24:57
voices. Again, uh, I'm thinking of like,
24:59
Ephraim talked about this
25:02
traditional church, whether it has roots
25:05
in an immigrant community, whether it's just a
25:07
long standing kind of white church that's been around, you
25:10
know, 100 years, 150 years, 70 years,
25:14
depending on the community, that they have this kind
25:17
of dominant tradition,
25:19
but they don't want to, they don't necessarily want to die. How
25:22
does one lead them? Like,
25:25
where does a pastor even start? I guess. I mean, I love
25:28
that idea from you, Ephraim, about, like, try
25:31
other foods, my goodness. But, uh, Dan, what do you
25:34
think? Where does one even start if you're trying to lead an existing church toward
25:37
change?
25:38
>> Dan Kreiss: I mean, it can be what Ephraim's already
25:40
said, something as simple as that, to branch out.
25:43
And so when we talk about, uh, everyone
25:46
needs to feel a bit of discomfort, essentially what that
25:49
means is that I have to be willing to
25:52
put my preferences on
25:55
the shelf, recognizing that the way that I worship or
25:58
the order of service, or the foods that we eat at our potluck
26:01
dinners, or all those things are
26:03
oftentimes culturally established rather
26:06
than biblically established. And so that means
26:09
that, um, in order for
26:11
me to experience a more full expression of
26:15
worship and service and begin to work in areas of
26:17
justice and reconciliation, as Ephraim talks about,
26:20
I need to hear from different voices and understand different
26:23
perspectives. So as a leader, how do we help them
26:26
do that? And that's really challenging because
26:29
oftentimes, again, particularly in this
26:32
polarizing time of life
26:35
that we're in, particularly in the United States,
26:38
for some people that comes across as
26:41
political, uh, or
26:44
the kind of derogatory term now is woke
26:47
theology and all that kind of stuff. And that's not
26:49
the desire at all. The, uh, desire is
26:53
to kind of broaden our understanding and
26:55
realize what God is doing. And so
26:58
in the book, some, there's a whole chapter that says,
27:01
it says, whose idea was this? We go back through the
27:04
Old and New Testament to say, look, this was God's intent
27:07
from the beginning. And even the people of Israel who saw themselves
27:10
as God's chosen people
27:12
recognized that, you know, through
27:15
the writing, that, well, this is not just about
27:18
us. And so as a, as a Pastoral leader.
27:22
Sometimes, um, it means difficult conversations. Sometimes it means that
27:25
you need to be one on the, on the cutting edge of
27:29
beginning conversations with, uh, maybe
27:32
different congregations or different people in your
27:34
community. Begin those conversations and by doing that,
27:37
then open those conversations up to others
27:40
through shared, uh, meals
27:43
or combined worship services or
27:46
podcast interviews or whatever that your
27:49
community can slowly begin to digest.
27:53
>> Loren: Yeah. Efraim, I'm looking at this quote from
27:55
153 about the assumption that often
27:59
takes place that God's work is
28:02
best done through our own cultures. And
28:05
I think many of us, if we're, even, if we're honest with
28:07
ourselves, we don't even recognize that we're
28:10
assuming that, um,
28:13
like, you know, how.
28:16
How have you led? How would
28:19
you. How would you. How have you led? How would you
28:21
advise leaders and pastors to
28:24
help lead their congregations and their people to
28:27
starting to be. To see their own,
28:32
um, their
28:35
own framework and how they're seeing the world through their
28:38
own lenses?
28:39
>> Ephraim Smith: Yes. Well, first of
28:41
all, I know that it
28:44
becomes challenging talking about
28:46
race in the current landscape we're
28:49
in.
28:50
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
28:51
>> Ephraim Smith: And so we've, but we've got to find ways to talk about
28:54
race in ways that are healthy, that are
28:57
productive, that are fruitful and faithful. But saying,
29:00
I'm not talking about this to demean,
29:03
to demonize, to divide. I'm talking about this
29:06
because sometimes putting the truth on the table
29:08
allows us to live in community
29:11
better. So, uh, you know,
29:14
and I say that to say that we do have
29:17
to acknowledge that
29:19
the church religious experience
29:23
of white brothers and sisters has been
29:26
made the normative experience of church.
29:29
So it is only the church
29:31
of those deemed minority
29:34
people that the ethnic
29:37
minority, um, ah, title
29:40
or descriptor of is put on their church.
29:43
So it's like if somebody goes, I go to an African
29:45
American church, I go to a Korean church, I
29:48
go to a Hispanic church. Most white Christians don't
29:51
say, I go to this white church, uh, in
29:54
Phoenix, I go to this white church.
29:57
You know, outside of Philadelphia, they say, I go
30:00
to an evangelical church. I go to a gospel church. I
30:03
go to a Bible believing church, I go to a Presbyterian.
30:06
It's almost like I go to a church where Jesus is really
30:08
preached.
30:09
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:11
>> Ephraim Smith: And so the white church has been
30:14
made the normative, universal experience
30:17
of church. It's also been
30:19
described as, this is the
30:22
more enlightened. This is the place where you
30:25
can get a more clear understanding of who
30:28
is Jesus, who is the church, what is the gospel.
30:31
And so I think we have to Start by saying
30:34
no. Even the
30:37
predominantly Anglo white
30:39
church is cultural in
30:42
nature. There's parts of it that aren't.
30:45
They're more cultural than they are biblical.
30:48
So that's one. But the other thing I think
30:51
we have to unpack is,
30:54
uh, the
30:56
churches that Paul
30:59
and James and Peter were writing
31:01
to, we're
31:03
multicultural, multiethnic
31:06
churches trying to not just
31:09
stave off false teaching, but we're
31:12
really trying to figure out how to live in the community together.
31:15
This is why James, for instance, is like you
31:17
rich people, you oppress the poor and you're not paying them
31:20
fair wages. And basically what James is saying is
31:23
you rich people are sitting in church
31:26
with poor people that you're praising Jesus
31:29
on today and, and you're
31:32
going to go to work tomorrow and you're not going to pay them. Right,
31:35
Um, I got to write to you about this. Or uh,
31:38
uh, uh, Paul is saying, look,
31:41
Christ died so that all of us would die
31:44
on some level so that we wouldn't see each
31:47
other anymore from a worldly point of view. 2nd
31:50
Corinthians 5. And so I
31:53
think we have to acknowledge that there are some things that
31:56
we've made sacred in church
31:59
that are cultural so that we can get
32:02
to a more biblical experience of
32:04
reconciliation. Last thing I'll say about
32:06
this, uh, briefly is because
32:09
this book is about the emerging generations
32:12
and the kind of church they may be looking for
32:15
or they've already left the church of
32:18
their parents for
32:21
the parents and grandparents of the emerging
32:24
generation chose churches
32:27
based on the racially
32:29
segregated world in which they
32:31
lived. Their children are going to
32:34
work with people from the Middle east,
32:37
people from the Ukraine, Hmong
32:40
people, Filipino people. They're
32:43
on social media navigating a world.
32:46
My daughters have friends that look like the United
32:49
nations when they're all together. My
32:52
oldest daughter is African American. She married
32:55
a white guy.
32:56
>> Loren: Mhm.
32:57
>> Ephraim Smith: They're looking for a church that
32:59
can be home for both of them. So interracial
33:02
marriage is up in the United States.
33:05
Adopting children across race is
33:08
up in the United States. The number
33:11
of children born of mixed
33:13
race is up in the United
33:16
States. So people are looking for
33:19
a church not based on their parents and grandparents
33:22
experience, but on their multicultural, multi
33:25
ethnic experience right now.
33:27
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I want to come back to
33:30
that emerging, the question about emerging
33:33
generations, because I think that's a super important
33:36
question for the church, broadly speaking, today. But
33:39
Dan, I want to ask this real quick too.
33:42
I think it's an easy
33:44
tendency, especially amongst white churches, is
33:47
to Kind of like,
33:50
hey, the past is the past.
33:53
You know, it is what it is.
33:56
How do you all write about the importance of not
33:59
forgetting the past to move into the future?
34:02
How do you lead congregations
34:05
to engage with the past as they look to the
34:08
Future?
34:09
>> Dan Kreiss: Yeah, well, C.S. lewis, uh, talks about that in terms
34:12
of a, uh, math equation.
34:13
>> Loren: Right.
34:13
>> Dan Kreiss: And if you're kind of getting the. You get to
34:17
the end, you can't just change it from there, but you have to
34:19
go back and address the issues back into. In the
34:22
equation to kind of get a different root result.
34:25
And that's essentially what we're saying. You're right
34:28
in many ways. We can't go back and change the
34:30
past, but we can go back and acknowledge the past
34:33
and recognize what place, uh, our congregation, even if
34:36
I wasn't alive at that time, our congregation played in
34:39
that, um, and then
34:42
work to apologize,
34:45
uh, and change the way that we do things
34:48
going forward so that we don't continue to
34:51
proffer those ideologies or those
34:53
things unintentionally. And again, sometimes we do that,
34:56
uh, just because this is our culture, this is how we do
34:59
things, makes, uh, me very
35:02
uncomfortable. My tradition
35:05
in the Presbyterian Church, they have often,
35:08
what's called. Well, it's usually
35:10
on, uh, All Saints
35:13
Day, they'll do what's called
35:16
Heritage, uh, Sunday, and Heritage Sunday,
35:19
they'll bring bagpipes in and they'll parade all the
35:22
tartans in and all kinds of stuff. Because, you know,
35:25
traditionally the Presbyterian church comes from the
35:27
Scottish area, and that's not a bad thing. We want to
35:30
embrace some of that heritage. But
35:33
Heritage Sunday, what it. What it also does
35:36
is it minimizes or,
35:39
uh, chooses to ignore what
35:42
that church did or what those people did when they came to
35:45
the United States. Yeah, our heritage. What part of our
35:47
heritage was, uh, enslaving
35:50
people who looked different than us?
35:53
Um, and so without acknowledging that and just coming
35:56
in, being proud of our heritage and minimizing
35:59
that which, uh, was wrong or
36:02
sinful in our heritage, um, is
36:04
not healthy. And again, I think emerging generations
36:07
look at that and go, there's a tension
36:10
here. There's something here that you're
36:13
completely ignoring that's we,
36:16
uh, need to address in order to move forward, in order to be more
36:19
who God wants our congregation to be. And so, again,
36:22
as a leader is sometimes having to speak those
36:25
things out loud.
36:26
>> Loren: Yeah. I want to come back to
36:29
the question about the future church.
36:32
And, you know, Ephraim, if I heard
36:35
you write it, it almost sounds like you're Saying like the future church is multi
36:38
ethnic. A, like do you think that's true? And B,
36:41
what. How do we start leading
36:44
that shift and preparing churches for that
36:47
shift?
36:49
>> Ephraim Smith: Yeah, I do believe that
36:51
um, there are not enough
36:54
multi ethnic churches
36:57
to accommodate the growing
37:00
population that will be desirous of
37:03
that kind of faith community. I don't
37:05
know as of yet if the multi ethnic church
37:08
will become um, the,
37:12
the dominant church if the majority
37:15
of churches. But we see growth in the multi ethnic church.
37:18
We, we, we see it going from you know,
37:20
less than 10% to close to
37:23
20% to more than that now that
37:26
it, it. And, and so uh,
37:29
what. There, there was a um,
37:31
Newsweek article that came out in the year 2000
37:34
called Color My World. So it was the
37:37
May 2000 issue
37:40
of Newsweek. So that's
37:42
24 years ago. Right. So uh, it
37:45
said at that time that
37:49
30 years before in the 1970s,
37:51
1 in 100 children born in
37:54
America were born of mixed race. 1 in
37:57
100 it said at that time, by
37:59
2000 it was 1 in 19
38:02
and in states like California, Illinois,
38:05
New York, it was 1 in 10.
38:08
So now we're 24 years since that
38:11
article was written. So I
38:15
uh. And because the church is in decline,
38:18
there's other books that aren't necessarily
38:21
focused on multiethnic. But David
38:24
Olson, oh, this was back in
38:26
2000,
38:28
uh, 10, uh, or so wrote
38:31
the book the American Church in Crisis.
38:33
>> Loren: Mhm.
38:34
>> Ephraim Smith: And talking about the decline of the American
38:36
church. And towards the end of the book he did
38:39
lift up the multi ethnic church as
38:42
part of the hope of
38:45
uh, addressing ah, the
38:48
decline. So I just think that
38:51
uh, again if we continue to be an ever increasing
38:54
multi ethnic, multicultural,
38:56
multiracial nation and we want
38:59
to be evangelistic and disciple,
39:02
making that in and of itself will call
39:05
for the need for more multiethnic
39:07
congregations.
39:11
>> Loren: Yeah, Dan, let's. You know, you mentioned off
39:14
the top you've done a lot of work in New Zealand and uh,
39:17
in what might be called a post Christian
39:19
society. I'm thinking there's certainly that
39:23
trend, Right. We might say broadly speaking in America of
39:26
certainly moving from at least the post Christian dom society.
39:28
Like does a multi ethnic
39:31
church resonate more with young people or young adults? Like
39:34
talk more about how a uh, multi ethnic church might be
39:37
more conducive to their context and
39:40
culture and making uh, them engage, helping
39:43
them engage with the faith.
39:45
>> Dan Kreiss: Right. One of the things that Ephraim says in
39:47
the book, and it's a quote from when I interviewed him
39:50
for my own research, was it may not
39:53
be the main reason why emerging generations
39:56
are walking away from the church, but it gives them one more
39:59
excuse, it's one more thing
40:01
that this is a way that seems like the
40:04
church is not anything
40:07
like the rest of my reality. And
40:09
so, um, I
40:12
think there's multiple aspects to why
40:15
emerging generations are disengaging from the church. I
40:18
do think that the multi inclusive church,
40:21
uh, is more reflective of one who God desires
40:24
the church to be or what God desires the church to be and also will
40:27
resonate, uh, more with emerging generations.
40:30
But I also think that there are other cultural things that are
40:32
happening. I think that this church may remain
40:35
in decline, uh, even with the growth
40:38
of the multi ethnic church just because of
40:42
other forces that are happening in society. But that
40:44
doesn't, again, that doesn't mean that
40:47
we, that this isn't something we should pursue. And again, I
40:50
think for me the desire to write this book and pursue
40:53
this, yes, we want the church to remain vital and
40:56
vibrant because of the message of the
40:58
gospel and because of what Jesus has done. And because I believe,
41:01
as I believe Ephraim believes, that the church is
41:04
the best place to reconcile our
41:07
culture. But that's not the
41:10
purpose for this. The purpose for this ultimately is
41:13
that we can be the people of God, the family of
41:16
God that God desired from the beginning. And I
41:19
think that's what's going to resonate with young people
41:22
most substantially. And again, this is not
41:25
a guarantee, um, by pursuing
41:28
multi ethnicity or pursuing multi inclusivity
41:30
that we're going to stave off a decline
41:34
in faith just because again, some of the other
41:36
pressures. But faith is growing in many areas.
41:40
Um, when
41:42
Ephraim talked about the,
41:45
the decline of the church, who was that author?
41:47
Ephraim?
41:50
>> Ephraim Smith: Yeah, David Olson. David Olson used to be
41:52
the um, executive, uh, minister
41:55
for church, ah, growth and evangelism,
41:58
uh, in our denomination.
41:59
>> Dan Kreiss: Right. And so some of that is, and people will look
42:02
at that and think, oh, you know, churches are closing all over the place, therefore
42:05
the church is in decline. And numerically that is
42:08
true. But what they're often referring to again is the
42:11
normative church. What's the normative church? It's the
42:14
white middle class church. Yes, they're in
42:16
decline, but that doesn't mean that the church
42:19
universally in our nation or around the world is in
42:22
decline. Matter of fact, in some places of the world it's
42:24
exploding.
42:27
>> Loren: Yeah. Ephraim, let's have you close with
42:30
this. Um, if I heard that right, Dan
42:33
quoted you from your interview with
42:35
him that the church is the best place to
42:38
reconcile culture. I think,
42:41
whether it's societally this idea that church is outdated
42:44
and irrelevant. While I think
42:48
there's some voices right within the church who think
42:51
church is too much of the problem, too, uh,
42:54
much aligned with this or that or the other, or too broken.
42:57
Why do you think, again, if I'm understanding you
43:00
correctly, why do you think that church is the best place to
43:03
lead and reconcile?
43:05
>> Ephraim Smith: Well, one, the church has
43:08
some biblical mandates, uh, to love your
43:11
neighbor as yourself. Uh,
43:14
and the definition of neighbor goes beyond, uh,
43:17
your specific ethnicity or nationality or
43:20
tribe. We have the great commission to
43:22
make disciples of all nations.
43:25
We also, in places like 2 Corinthians,
43:28
chapter 5 and even other places in Ephesians, have the
43:31
call to reconciliation. And that call to
43:34
reconciliation not only includes being
43:36
reconciled to God in Christ Jesus, but
43:39
again because,
43:42
uh, the churches weren't coming
43:44
from the homogeneous place that the
43:47
American church is coming from. Reconciliation
43:50
did really mean, will Jews and gentiles live
43:53
harmoniously in this community? And
43:56
so, uh, I believe that the
43:59
church with its flaws still
44:02
remains the only institution, the
44:05
only movement where unity,
44:08
where reconciliation is a
44:10
priority
44:13
is a mandate.
44:16
If corporations are
44:19
diverse, but their mandate is to sell
44:22
products and to make money.
44:24
Uh, politics, we recently
44:27
witnessed this. There's a winner and a loser.
44:30
And so the politics of
44:32
America is not set up for
44:35
unity. It's set up for, within a
44:38
two party system to say this party
44:41
won. So now this party gets to
44:44
decide, this party gets to enforce its
44:46
mandate on all people. The church, the
44:49
Christian church remains the one
44:52
place in my mind where
44:55
uh, reconciliation, unity
44:58
in Christ Jesus is not supposed to be an
45:00
option.
45:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm thinking again, like the last few
45:05
years, right. So many corporations have gone to
45:08
DEI approaches and then when they've gotten
45:11
pushback on that, they're like, oh, never mind,
45:13
like it's not convenient for our business,
45:17
money uh, making endeavor. So we're just gonna like
45:19
quietly shelf that.
45:22
>> Ephraim Smith: Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean the
45:25
original reason why corporations drift towards
45:28
DEI is they're making customer based
45:30
decisions.
45:31
>> Loren: Right, Right.
45:32
>> Ephraim Smith: If, if Pepsi knew they could be a
45:35
billion dollar corporation and only sell Pepsi
45:38
to white people, they would be doing that.
45:41
But they go, oh my gosh,
45:44
black people and brown people are drinking Pepsi
45:47
and we, and we need to take it, we need to get into that
45:50
market or Coca Cola is going to just rule
45:53
there. So let's hire an African American
45:56
and let's study how we can get more African
45:59
Americans, more black and brown people drinking Pepsi. So I
46:02
mean Corporations, I mean, man, I really
46:05
made that really, really sound
46:07
bad.
46:08
>> Dan Kreiss: But.
46:09
>> Ephraim Smith: But companies make customer based
46:12
decisions. The church is supposed to make
46:14
kingdom based decisions.
46:16
>> Dan Kreiss: Yes.
46:17
>> Loren: Yeah, I gotta write that down.
46:19
>> Dan Kreiss: Yeah. Which is very different, man.
46:20
>> Ephraim Smith: I did. I was.
46:21
>> Dan Kreiss: Sounds good. Look, Loren, the challenge,
46:24
I think, uh, when looking at the church,
46:27
uh, is that we've been through a lot with
46:30
the pandemic and then the racial unrest and all that stuff.
46:33
And the church should have been the exemplar. The church should have been
46:36
one that public
46:39
entities and corporations and
46:42
political uh, establishments should have been going to and said,
46:45
how do you do this? How do you
46:47
reconcile? Because we see that you are doing it effectively and
46:50
efficiently and you are doing it in a way where everyone's included. And
46:53
yet when those things happened, nobody turned to the
46:56
church. Because the world, for whatever reason,
46:59
doesn't see the church as having the answer to that. Because I don't think
47:02
we've exemplified what God desires the church
47:05
to be. And uh, again, had we been living it out
47:08
the way we were meant to live it out, I think
47:11
that would have been the turning point. That uh, they were like, you know,
47:14
when all this unrest happens, well, let's go to
47:17
our church leaders because they know how to do this
47:20
reconciliation. They know how to, to be
47:23
inclusive in a way that we don't. But they looked at the church and thought they're
47:26
just like us. Maybe even more, uh,
47:28
siloed than we are.
47:31
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point.
47:34
Um, I know we're running out of time here, so let's just do
47:37
this. The book is church for
47:40
everyone, building a multi
47:43
inclusive community for emerging generations.
47:46
Uh, Dan and Ephraim, do you want to just bother share how folks can
47:49
connect with you? Get the book, all that stuff,
47:53
uh.
47:53
>> Ephraim Smith: For me, uh, you can just uh, find me Ephraim
47:56
Smith on Instagram, on Facebook.
47:59
I uh, encourage you to go to Midtownchurch, uh,
48:02
uh.org uh to look us up
48:05
that way. Uh, but uh, definitely
48:08
encourage you uh, to pick up the book
48:11
wherever you can get books. Amazon
48:13
Bookstores, uh, and uh,
48:15
again for me it's an honor to
48:18
partner with uh, Dan. We're on
48:21
this project.
48:24
>> Dan Kreiss: Uh, uh, my contact details are changing because in
48:27
two weeks I'm in a new location. But the uh, church will
48:30
be a Lake Murray Presbyterian, uh,
48:33
in Chapin, South Carolina. But again, just like
48:35
Ephrem Dan Christ at Instagram or on
48:38
Facebook and we'd encourage you to. And I just
48:41
finished an eight week study of the book in my,
48:44
my previous church, uh, with about
48:47
80 people. And it was a fantastic way to kind
48:50
of have some challenging dialogue and discussion
48:53
with multi generations. And I would encourage
48:56
pastors or leaders, elders or whatever to pick that up and
48:59
do it as a group study because it was
49:02
powerful.
49:03
>> Loren: All right, so I guess before I'll, uh, make sure I get with you
49:06
when the show notes come out to make sure we get update, uh, contact
49:09
links for the show notes. But gentlemen, uh, really appreciate
49:12
your time. Really appreciate the conversation. Thank, uh, you
49:15
for contribution of the book and for this conversation
49:18
today. So I always leave folks with a word of peace.
49:20
So, uh, may God's peace be with you.
49:30
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
49:33
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
49:35
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
49:38
questions, comments and ideas for future
49:40
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
49:43
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49:46
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
49:49
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