Latest / Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more! / A Hiker’s History of the Appalachian Trail with Mills Kelly, Author and A.T. Historian (Ep 82, Pt 1)

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A Hiker’s History of the Appalachian Trail with Mills Kelly, Author and A.T. Historian (Ep 82, Pt 1) · Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia is a Mecca for outdoor travel and adventure.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Virginia Outdoor Adventures Podcast is your local guide for hiking, camping, kayaking, travel, and so much more.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Get the information and the inspiration to plan your own adventure.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right here in Virginia.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Jessica Bowser.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: The Appalachian Trail is more than a footpath.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a living piece of American history.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Stretching over 2,000 miles from Georgia to Maine, the AT winds through some of Virginia's most beautiful and rugged landscapes.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But have you ever wondered how this legendary trail came to be and who the dreamers, builders, and hikers were that shaped it?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're hiking through history with someone who knows the Appalachian Trail like a few others do.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: My friend Mills Kelly is a historian, archivist, podcast host, lifelong hiker, and author of the new book, A Hiker's History of the Appalachian Trail.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: His book captures the 80s history not just as a collection of facts and dates, but as a human story about purpose, adventure, and our search for meaning in the mountains.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mill shares fascinating stories from the trail's early days and how it has changed over the past century.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when you think about how far we've come, from hikers in wool suits carrying canvas packs filled with fresh produce to today's ultralight gear and freeze-dried meals, it's amazing to see how the trail has evolved right alongside us.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mills reminds us that the AT wasn't built for heroic end-to-end tracks, but for ordinary people to breathe easier and feel a little wilder for a few hours or a few days.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: That simple idea still shapes lives, towns, and trail culture across Virginia and beyond.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: The story of the Appalachian Trail is as much about the people and their experiences as it is about the path beneath their feet.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So join us as we hike back through time on the world's most iconic long-distance trail.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Virginia Outdoor Adventures is sponsored by Brakes Park and Heart of Appalachia.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Known as the Grand Canyon of the South, Brakes Park is a hiking destination in the Heart of Appalachia.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find trails for every skill level featuring geologic wonders, canyon overlooks, stream crossings, and abundant wildlife.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Stay close to the adventure with lodges, cabins, and campgrounds inside the park.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond the brakes, the heart of Appalachia invites you to hike and bike through breathtaking mountain landscapes, paddle hidden hollows, reel in trout from crystal clear streams, or hop on an ATV to conquer the rugged spearhead trails.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Take a scenic drive, embark on an elk tour, and explore Virginia's treasured Southwest, where you'll also find vibrant local dining, shopping, and celebrations.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Your next outdoor adventure starts in the heart of Appalachia.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Tap the links for Brakes Park and Heart of Appalachia in your show notes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Jessica, thanks so much for having me back.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: What do you love about Virginia's outdoors?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I'm a hiker, I'm a kayaker, I'm a fisherman, I'm an outdoor photographer, I camp, I backpack, I volunteer on the Appalachian Trail.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of do it all.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not your first appearance on Virginia Outdoor Adventures.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: You came on the podcast, oh, I don't know, maybe two seasons ago or so.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was episode 43 where you talked about Virginia's lost Appalachian Trail.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a super popular episode.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I got some fantastic feedback, particularly from people who were surprised to learn that there was a section of the AT that had been rerouted through Virginia, especially those folks who live near that portion of the AT and didn't even know it was there.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And just the impact that it had on the communities.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: That was so interesting.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to have you back to talk about your new book.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was just so much fun to be on the show and to talk about the book and to hear from you that the reaction was so positive from your listener community.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mills, you are a historian, an archivist, a podcast host, and also a lifelong hiker.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you've authored a couple of books, and your newest book is called A Hiker's History of the Appalachian Trail.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: What inspired you to write the book?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a book that I started thinking about almost a decade ago.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what made me first think that this was the book I wanted to write was I used to teach a course at George Mason University on the history of the Appalachian Trail.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted a book I could assign to my students that was not a walk in the woods by Bill Bryson and that gave a more comprehensive history of the hiker experience on the trail.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there just really wasn't one.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of books about the through hiker experience.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, through hikers are only, you know, one-tenth of one percent of all the people who set foot on the trail every year.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it seemed to me that that was only telling a very small part of the story.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: When I looked around, there just really wasn't a good book that I could assign to my students.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, in in part, I was motivated to write the book because I wanted something I could use with my students.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Every time you and I talk about the trail, you are quick to remind me that less than one-tenth of one percent of all hikers on the AT are through hikers.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really significant.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would you say the purpose of the Appalachian Trail is?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Who is it meant to serve?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in 1921, when Benton Mackay first came up with the idea for the Appalachian Trail, he was really concerned about the health of people living in the big cities of the East Coast, in particular working class people.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the cities were loud, they were polluted, we just gotten out of the influenza pandemic when millions of people died and the first world war.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: He was, you know, it just he was really worried about people's overall health.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And his solution to that was that they needed to get some, as he put it, oxygen in their lives.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the way they would do that would be going up into the mountains and hiking and volunteering to build a hiking trail.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so he wasn't wrong.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, hiking in the mountains is actually really good for you.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, just you know, you de-stress, you get some exercise, it's just good for you.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the original purpose.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's been why people go ever since.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's somewhere between three and five four million people, although somebody told me yesterday that the park service is maybe gonna up that number, all but a tiny, tiny fraction.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple of thousand people who try to through hike.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of them are there for a few hours, maybe a couple of days, you know, a weekend, maybe a week, maybe two weeks, but almost everybody is just there just for a couple of hours to get some oxygen in their lives.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: You write in your book that the original trail in the 1920s was a little more than a hope.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what did that first version of the trail look like for hikers?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about it objectively and think, okay, in 1925, a group of people came together and said and formed the Appalachian Trail Conference, which is now the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, and they thought, okay, we're gonna do this, we're gonna build a 2,000-mile trail through the mountains, and but we're just gonna do it on the weekends because you know, we all have full-time jobs.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if you looked back at that, you think, these people were nuts.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's just not gonna happen.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: In 12 years, it was complete.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so they'd done it.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it was an incredible achievement.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But that original trail was mostly road walking.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it was paved road or gravel road, but a lot of it was old abandoned roads in the mountains, some of which were fire roads and parks today.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of them were just roads that you know, farmers who used to live in the mountains had made and then abandoned.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was easy.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna string together 2,000 miles of trail in a hurry, you take advantage of open walking areas that already exist.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, so really the experience of the early days of hiking the trail was more an experience of walking in road beds than it was walking on a trail like the one we're used to today.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you look carefully, you can see where the ruts are from the wheels for wet, maybe wagon wheels or truck wheels or whatever.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see built up on the sides of the trail where people like got rocks out of the way and put them on the side of the trail.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you look carefully, you'll you'll see a lot of it.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you and I have been together a number of times to the Manassas Cab shelter that I maintain.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's just located at an old farm.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, there's a farmhouse there, right where the AT turns to go down to the shelter, that's where the house was.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: That stretch of trail that fronts where the shelter is, that's an old roadbed.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I really loved about your book was the photos and the different, you know, artifacts from the archives that you chose to share in the book.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's so fascinating to me to look back on what hikers looked like in the early days, especially compared to what they look like now.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And not just in the early days, but you have photos like throughout the decades.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you so you can sort of see the progression of what it looked like in the beginning to what it looked like now.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, what kinds of challenges or experiences did early hikers encounter?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was giving a talk just the other day about the changing fashion on the trail.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, it's really fun, you know.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like I showed a picture from the like 1932, and several of the men are wearing suits, like wool suits, you know, with a vest and a tie and a Hamburg hat.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and some of the women are wearing jotpurrs and um, you know, leather vests, it looks like, or suede vests.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, they're and those huge hats.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those really huge hats that have like flowers all over and ribbons on the top.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that one was you're thinking there, but there's a photo from Black Rock Summit in Shenandoah National.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's the one.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's from the 1890s, you know.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are photos from the from the West Coast of women dressed like that summoning mountains in the Sierras.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Unreal.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So Can you imagine wool suits?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't I can't say that I've seen anybody hike, any men hiking with like a vest and a tie recently.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so my gosh.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: For in my whole life.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's also interesting.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I started hiking on the trail in the 1970s, and when the kind of standard hiking attire was big, big, clunky boots, hiking boots that each weighed probably a pound and a half, and like athletic socks with stripes on the top, and um, and then cut off blue jeans and a t-shirt.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that was true for both men and women.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: That was just sort of standard hiker attire.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you can see a lot of that in the photo database that the Appalachian Trail Museum maintains of photos that were taken at the ATC headquarters in Harper's Ferry sometime in the 1970s.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just really you it's fun to look at those because you can see the evolution of hiker fashion over time.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, like if you're out wearing cutoff jeans and a cotton t-shirt, people would think, what's wrong with that person?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in your book, you also talk about or you reference old manuals from the past where they make recommendations, including what to wear.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the recommendations were like cotton, like blue cotton jeans.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you know, they because they wanted people to wear things that were durable.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um the problem with those is when they got wet, they got really heavy.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and if you were wet and cold, it wasn't good for you.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and those manuals that you mentioned, you know, they were really helpful to me because you know, I I operated on the assumption that if companies were selling these products, people were buying them.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they were selling them year after year, that meant that they had a market for those things.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it was interesting to see the kinds of backpacks that people had available to them and the kinds of tents they could purchase.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so those old gear catalogs were fun to look at.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the trail clubs had kind of prescriptive literature that you sort of stuff you just mentioned that that said, you know, you should wear this, you should carry that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: But even then, in like in the 1940s, there was always that trade-off between cost and weight.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: The lighter it was, the more it cost.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you also talked about how the boom in hiker culture and the interest in hiking the trail just really helped some of these gear companies sort of take off.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's and it's a really important change because after about 1965 or so, uh backpacking in particular, hiking, but also backpacking becomes much more popular in the American population in general.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the more people who are doing something, the more companies sprout up to supply them with things.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then those companies begin competing with one another to make better and better gear, because then you buy their gear instead of somebody else's.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the quality of the gear got a lot better and the the weight went way down.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's especially important because if you're going to put on a backpack and hike for a week, weight really matters.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so the lighter the gear became, the more accessible the backcountry became to the average person.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you have some photos of some early gear, and what surprised me is how much some of it has not changed over the years.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, some of the stoves, the cooking stoves are not that much different.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're very close to the original design.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: You had a photo of the Vibram Souls, and I saw that picture, and I'm like, wait, my boot right now looks like this.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not much different.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really fascinating to sort of see the changes over time, but also how much of it really hasn't changed.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're still, you know, vibram soles were invented following a climb by somebody in Italy following a climbing accident where several of his friends died, and they were wearing hobnail boots, which is what people used to wear.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so he wanted something that would be safer in you know, ice icy conditions in the mountains.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so the vibram sole came out of that and it became kind of a standard bottom to hiking shoes, and it was so good that people really haven't changed it much.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was interesting.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: You also mentioned that there is a small but strong community of hammock campers, and you mentioned the first hammock being developed by a man named Hennessy, and I went, wait a second, I own that that hammock, but not only that, but I just talked to his son on the phone the other day.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I think it's his son.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I assume it's his son, they have the same last name.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wait, like this wasn't even that long ago.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, the inspiration for the hammock tent uh really came out of the Second World War and the Pacific campaigns.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the Australian and American armies developed these hammock tents so the soldiers wouldn't sleep in the muck in the jungle.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't remember his first name now.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: This guy Hannesy, um, sometime in the 60s saw a photo and he thought, I want one of those.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So he made one.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And his friends then said, Hey, where'd you get that?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Oh, I made it.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, can you make me one?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's how it started.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it goes, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the book is just full of interesting examples like that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I thought it was really cool to see the evolution of gear and clothing over the years.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Adventure seekers will find endless opportunities in Grayson County, where many of Virginia's iconic trails and landmarks excite hikers, cyclists, paddlers, and happy campers alike.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine this: you're hiking on one of the most scenic sections of the entire Appalachian Trail through the George Washington and Jefferson National Forests.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Summiting Mount Rogers or White Top Mountain, the two highest peaks in Virginia, or strolling through the valley of Elk Garden, where the now extinct Eastern Elk once roamed.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe your perfect day is on the water.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Grayson County is home to the New River, one of the oldest and most scenic rivers in the world.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy a leisurely Class 1 float with the family or adrenaline-packed Class III rapids.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Navigate the waters using the New River float calculator to plan your trip.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: The app factors flow rate, water levels, weather conditions, vessel type, and more to calculate flow times from point A to point B.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Prefer two wheels?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: You won't want to miss the Grace and Gravel Traverse, a 72-mile mixed-surface gravel bike route that connects the Virginia Creeper Trail and New River Trail over well-maintained and remote roads, featuring a variety of challenging climbs in the foothills of Virginia's highest peaks.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: This overlooked gem of Virginia presents some of the best gravel cycling in the state, mostly unridden and undiscovered.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: After a day of adventure, there's nothing like gathering round a campfire under a sky filled with stars.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Grayson County offers plenty of spots to pitch a tent, like the New River Campground, or cozy up in a rustic cabin at the Buckwild Reserve.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Discover why Virginia is for outdoor lovers.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Start your Grayson County adventure at the historic 1908 Courthouse and Visitor Center, or learn more in episode 81 of Virginia's Adventure Towns, featuring Freeze, Grayson County's hidden gem on the New River.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Find links to the episode and Grayson County's visitor guide in the show notes of your podcast listening app.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Getting back to the trail itself, were there any parts of the early trail in Virginia that played an especially important role in the history of the trail?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the most photographed location on the trail is McAfee Knob down outside of Roanoke.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: The knob itself has played, you know, a really interesting role in the history of the trail because so much of the trail, when it was first developed, was on private land or roads that the trail clubs had to get easements from people to let the trail cross their private land.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: As it is, the Appalachian Trail only passes through two national parks, the Smokies and Shenandoah, but through a number of the national forests.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But initially a lot of it was on private land.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the Catawba Mountain, where McAfee Knob is, was all private land.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the knob actually wasn't on the trail originally.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was within a couple hundred yards, but it wasn't actually on the trail.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then when the Appalachian Trail became a national park in 1968, the landowners on the knob said, yeah, we're not selling our property to the National Park Service.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so they kicked the trail off.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: They were also a little tired of all the hikers.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was at a moment when littering was really, really common on the trail and they were sick of that.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it was before Leave No Trace became a thing, really.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So they kicked the trail off.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so for 12 years, the Appalachian Trail was actually on the far side of the Catawpa Valley there on can't remember if it's called Peters Mountain or North Mountain, but it was a really miserable hike.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've talked to a couple of people who did it and they said it was just awful.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the National Park Service ultimately had to force the sale of that land.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was one of the few instances where they had to force a land sale for the trail, but uh but their Bob Proudman, who was in charge of all of that, went to McAfee Knob and he was like, Yeah, yeah, we gotta do that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a piece we have to have.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So so the knob was kind of at the center of a lot of the decisions about land ownership for the trail.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, now we don't really think about it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: We just assume that every piece of the trail that we walk on was always part of the trail, and that's just not the case.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that part was really, really important.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would say that the areas um close to Washington, DC, both in Virginia and Maryland, were in West Virginia, were also really important because people in Washington who had power and authority could go to the Appalachian Trail and walk on it and see this is a really cool thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it should be preserved and supported.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so the fact that the trail is so close to Washington in Northern Virginia um and in western Maryland has been on South Mountain, has been, I think, really important to the the history of the trail because it's it's generated a constituency in Congress.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's explore how the AT culture and hiker identity evolved because the trail definitely does have a culture.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the first hikers weren't necessarily out to conquer the trail, which I think is what a lot of folks set out to do today.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, they were out for the joy of walking in the mountains and basically just connecting with nature, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So has that changed throughout the years?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It actually hasn't, because I st I still think that uh based on my research, the vast, vast majority of people who go on the trail go for that reason to just spend some time in nature.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless of why they go to the trail, one of the things I learned was that they all have one thing in common, and that is that they they want to touch the wild.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: They they want to, you know, see a mother turkey with her chicks run across the trail in front of them.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: They want to listen to water running over stones in a small stream.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: They want to, they would like to see a bear from a distance, you know, they and or or see a rattlesnake from a distance.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So they they just want to have that sort of wilder experience.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and the Appalachian Trail is kind of perfect for that because it's wild, but it's it's not that wild.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of controlled wild.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the gifts that I think we have now are all of the logs from the different shelters across the trail.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the things that you shared in your book were many, many entries from hikers who had written in the log.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that jumped out quite a bit was whenever there was a wildlife setting.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like somebody almost always mentions whenever they see a wildlife setting, whether it's a bobcat or a snake or whatever.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But like people get really excited about that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I think is never going to change.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's not gonna change at all.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I was saying to somebody the other day that if I was just gonna choose a title for the book instead of a hiker's history of the Appalachian Trail, it would have been I saw a bobcat with three exclamation points, because um, which you know, the Amazon algorithm's not gonna pick that up in public sales.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the number of times I saw in those shelter register logs where people had written that I saw a bobcat with multiple exclamation points, um, just shows you how excited they were by this sort of fleeting interaction with wildness.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll also just say that, you know, those shelter logs were were really critical to the book itself.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I couldn't have written it without them because through hikers write books about their hikes, or they have now, you know, YouTube channels or whatever Substack newsletters.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the average person who goes out for just a couple hours, they they don't write a book about their hike because like who would read that?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, oh, you walk for two hours, cool.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And but they did stop at the shelters and they wrote little tidbits about their hikes.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I spent six months just reading those.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna ask you, like, how many of those logs have you read through?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine hundreds, hundreds and hundreds.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I was really fortunate because at the Appalachian Trail Museum up in Pennsylvania, they've been gathering as many of those as they can get their hands on.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there are three dedicated volunteers there who digitize them.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And for preservation purposes primarily, so they gave me a thumb drive with literally hundreds and hundreds of them.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so that made it possible for me to have access to all of that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, going back into the 1930s, and so that's how I really began to understand what the hiker experience was like and how it changed over time or how it didn't.
• 23:28
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• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Who were some of the earliest through hikers?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you think motivated them to attempt the entire trail?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was not what the trail was intended for, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: The Appalachian Trail was never intended to be a trail that people hiked from one end to the other in a you know in a single hiking season.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the first person to do it uh was a World War II veteran named Earl Schaefer and in 1948, and when he uh announced that he had completed his hike, the Appalachian Trail Conference said, No, you didn't.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because they thought it was like, who would do that?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's just dumb.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so he had to come to Washington, DC, where they were headquartered at the time, and kind of submit to what he called a Gestapo interrogation, where he had to prove that he had done it, um, because they really didn't believe him.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he was ultimately able to convince them that he had.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and then um Gene Stevenson, who was the editor of the Appalachian Trailway News, their quarterly magazine, uh, wrote a piece saying, you know, that he had done it, but that it was really unusual circumstances because he was a Marine, he was he had, you know, in incredible shape because of his war service, and he was a lifetime backpacker, and so it's unlikely that anyone will do this again anytime soon.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 1951, three people did it, and the next year three more, and and it kind of slowly but surely took off from there to where this year I think something like 2,500 people attempted a through hike, and um I'm gonna guess around a thousand will succeed.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it didn't really through hiking didn't really accelerate as a phenomenon until around the year 2000.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: It sounded to me like the ATC for a while was tracking who completed the trail, and people were required to submit some sort of document or proof, and then at some point it just got to be so many hikers that they stopped, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what happened early 1970s.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they did.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: You had to like proof that you had done it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if you did, they would invite you to their annual meeting and they would give you a wooden plaque with uh, you know, the hand-carved wooden plaque celebrating your achievement, and and so they made a really big deal out of it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the I guess it was in the early 1970s, the person in charge of that, the volunteer who was doing all of that, just kind of threw his hands up and he said, You know, there are like 250 people on the trail this year attempting a through hike, and I can't I can't do this.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's too much.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So they switched to an honor system, um, which they've used ever since, which is you write in and say, I completed a through hike, and you know, I started on this date and I finished on that date, and um they send you a little certificate and a patch.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they they depend on kind of social shaming to prevent people from lying, because I could send them that letter now and say, Yeah, I just just finished at Mount Catahdin and uh send me my patch.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they would, but if I put that patch on my backpack, all my friends would say, Mills Kelly, you are not a through hiker.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how it works, you know, and um it's really an honor system.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of people are really fascinated with through hiker culture.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're interested in things like people's trail names, and then there are different events like hike naked day and the half gallon challenge.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit about how the rise of through hiker culture changed the social life of the Appalachian Trail?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the thing that's the most pervasive is what you mentioned, um having a trail name.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's not really clear how that got started.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at the Thruhiker database at the Appalachian Trail Museum, in the late 1970s, maybe a third of the people listed a trail name.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: But by the end of the 1980s, most did.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and by the 1990s, almost almost everyone.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: There are a few people who don't do the trail name thing, but almost everyone does.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you're supposed to have your trail name given to you by others, not chosen.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some people choose theirs, sometimes for very good reasons.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly it's supposed to be given to you.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: My one of my favorites was a woman I met whose uh trail name was Pig Pen.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and I said, Okay, I gotta ask, you know, why?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she said that early in her hike, she was going down a slope with a couple of other hikers and it was really wet, and she slipped and she fell and she rolled over a couple of times in the mud and she came up completely coated in mud.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the other hikers was like, Wow, you look just like Pig Pen and Charlie Brown.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's how she got her her name.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it it also has the advantage, and I think this is especially true for women who are hiking alone on the trail, of conferring a certain level of anonymity.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to give your actual name.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's kind of rude to ask, well, what's your real name?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So people sort of don this persona of their trail name.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I have a uh very close friend who's a nurse anesthetist in Pittsburgh, you know, she works with brain surgeons and she's dips.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: She's because her trail name was serendipity and it got shorted to shorted down to dips.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so everybody just knows her as dips, and you know, it's tattooed on her forearm, and it's that's who she is.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: What's your trail name, Els?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mine is Granddaddy Spartan.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you get that?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I got that because I was um hiking.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: When I hike, I don't shave, and my beard comes in very white and has since I was in my 30s.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was hiking with one of my kids, and we stopped at a shelter in the southern district of Shenandoah, and there were some through hikers there.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh so he was chatting with them, and I was exhausted because I was hiking with a 16 year old who can walk a lot faster than me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was just sort of leaning against the wall of the shelter, really tired, and and my beard was all white.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and the movie 300, the animated film about Sparta, had just been out, and so still in the cultural conversation.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the through hikers looked at me and he's like, dude, you look Just like granddaddy Spartan, and that's how it happened.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just sort of random stuff like that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, and then there are various hiking traditions.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, hike naked day has been around since the 80s, we think.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's on the summer solstice in June.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the half-gallon challenge in Pine Grove Furnace State Park in Pennsylvania, where the museum is, um, was started by the um proprietor of the camp store in the state park campground.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, hikers are supposed to sit down and eat an entire half gallon of ice cream in one go, which is a lot of butter, fat, and salt when you've been living on trail food, and many of them are regret that they tried it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the most physically challenging of those challenges is the four-state challenge.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you can start at the Virginia-West Virginia line.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you're in Virginia, that's state one.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cross over into West Virginia, that's state two.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: You hike 14 miles in West Virginia, you cross the Potomac River, and now you're in in Maryland, and then you hike 30 miles, and uh, and then you're in um Pennsylvania.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so altogether comes out to like 40 miles, I guess, in and you have to do it in 24 hours.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, does this mean for those of us who are thinking about a day hike on the AT in Virginia around June that we should be worried about running into naked hikers?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: It could happen, uh, but only on the summer solstice, or it should only happen on the summer solstice.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I have a a quote in the book that I loved.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some guy was doing the hike naked thing.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: He was up in the White Mountains in in New Hampshire and came around a bend in the trail, and there was uh there was a guy sitting on a rock, you know, having a snack, just a day hiker, and the day hiker looked at him like, oh, it's like naked day, you know, and that was it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he just kept going.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think it happens in places like Shenandoah National Park, for instance.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I imagine there must be some kind of consequences in certain places if this, if they're if you're caught doing this, perhaps.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are a very prudish country, and so I'm sure that that you could end up with a ticket from a local park authority person or something.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's let's just say I've been hiking on the Appalachian Trail since 1971, and I have yet to see a naked hiker.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't usually hear too many people talking about it either.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little crazy considering mosquitoes and chiggers and ticks and just brushing up against thorny bushes and all of that.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like why no why would you want that?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think honestly, I think the vast majority of people strip down, get a photo, and then put their clothes back on.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you could say you participated, but in a little bit of a smarter, more conservative way.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked a little bit about hiking gear and clothing, but I would love to talk about how hiking food has changed, especially the weight and the type of food that people used to carry blew my mind.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: People used to carry really heavy food.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it's not because dehydration didn't exist, because they they called it desiccating food in those days back in the 20s and 30s, but it was dehydrating.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: They and then you know, freeze-drying happens after the Second World War.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was possible to get very lightweight foods, but mostly people ate very fresh.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they went to the grocery store and they got some potatoes and some apples and some bananas and some onions and and some butter.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and so they carried fresh food and and so they ate much more nutritiously, much more nutritiously.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it was a much healthier diet.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a lot heavier.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, the other thing that was heavy was the cooking gear that they carried to cook that food, because you know, the backpacking stove doesn't really become a ubiquitous item on the trail until the 50s and 60s.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: They were around before the Second World War, but there was a lot of innovation during the Second World War that improved the stoves.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: They become pretty, pretty common.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And once you have a stove, then you don't have to know how to build a fire and you don't care if it's raining.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's still inconvenient to cook in the rain, but you don't have to worry about your fire going out.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people carried cook pots and and they would get up in the morning and make biscuits or cornbread and over the fire.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so they carried a lot of cooking gear also that was equally heavy.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, after the Second World War, it becomes really increasingly easy to buy dehydrated and and then freeze-dried foods and to use a backpacking stove with just one little pot.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and so all of a sudden the weight that people carried went way down.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the food just got a lot less nutritious.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: We did for our podcast, we interviewed a couple of um nutritionists and they were just appalled.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, This is terrible, terrible.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really bad for you.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I met a guy who'd hiked a PCT one year and then came and hiked the AT the next year.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when he was hiking, he lived entirely on energy bars.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now he was like 25, but he lived entirely and he would go into town and he would gorge on five guys in Taco Bell.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, he just ate the worst possible diet you can imagine.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yet he hiked both of these very long trails.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: So now, again, he was like 25, so he could do it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there was all kinds of fun stuff in there.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, when was the last time you, Jessica Bowser, ate an onion sandwich?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you talked about that, and no, thank you.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I never have, and I don't think I ever will.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, there are people from it's more of a southern thing.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are people I when I asked that question to audiences, there's always somebody who's like, Oh, yeah, when I go see my grandma in South Carolina, she would serve onion sandwiches, you know.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like bread, butter, and a slice of onion.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, thanks.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was really popular, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And who knew?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And easy because you just had to have some bread and some butter and some onions.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there you go.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now you have a sandwich.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's stuff like that.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I did a deep dive into the history of instant pudding and stuff like that.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, so the food part was really fun and uh to to research and to read about.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun to learn about because when I think about how heavy my grocery bags are when I carry them in from the car, and then I imagine putting that into my pack.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I just can't, right?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm thinking about carrying all that weight plus water, plus cooking supplies.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And how much time are they were they spending on the trail cooking?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it wasn't like just boil some water, pour it in, wait your 10 to 15 minutes to eat and go.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that didn't happen.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they were required to burn all of their trash afterwards, too.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole nother process.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And having to have water to put that fire out.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just seemed like it was so much.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then to go from that and to watch it evolve into things like when Slim gyms were invented and when Pop Tarts were invented and things that we now consider hiker food.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Personally, I would never eat any of that, but things that we call hiker food, when those things were invented and how it changed the trail and how, you know, what people were eating on the trail.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's again, the lighter the food and the lighter the cooking gear, the more people can imagine putting on a backpack and hiking 10, 15 miles.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Join us next week for part two, where we'll look at how the Appalachian Trail has evolved into a global icon and the modern challenges that come with its popularity.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Mills and I will talk about social media's impact on the trail, how hikers can give back through stewardship, and what the trail's rich history means for Virginians today.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also bring the conversation closer to home with practical advice for hiking the AT right here in Virginia.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're planning a short day hike or dreaming of a through hike, Mills has the tips you need to get you exploring the trail.
• 37:49
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• 37:59
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• 38:05
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• 38:09
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• 38:23
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• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, Adventure On.