Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E20 - Judaism and creativity
Transcript
- Yair Eldan: I would say that tradition Jew religion has a potential to promote creativity and it actually materialized the Jewish tradition that I know. materialize this potential and I think when you think about it and it's actually there's a question for you embedded in my words now. I think that tradition when you think about creation has this two ways that it can choose. One or actually proposing us one is you know imitatio dei to actually imitate God And there is something wonderful about it. not to work on Saturday as God didn't work, you know. to do things that actually makes us feel and act in the world. Oliver Joseph: And I fundamentally accept that in some of the extremist corners of our current religious dogma in our current religious communities that sometimes that creativity is totally ignored and totally repressed. think that's definitely an aspect of, I mean, in many ways that's an aspect of why I'm a rabbi that I wish to stand here and represent the rabbinic creativity of the generations and the possibility for Jewish creativity even inside this ancient tradition. as a fundamental and important part. Yair Eldan: And I think religion is always, you know, I liked the description of going through uncertainty and then going inside the inspiration and there is a kind of movement inside and outside and it's wonderful and I think institutionalized country religion has part of the guilt here. I mean something about institutionalized religion is when you put power, money and in into you know, all sorts of the human spirit and you combine them, I don't think good things come comes around. and one of the bad things is connected to you know depressing creation feelings in humans. Oliver Joseph: Welcome everybody back to really Jewish. This is a really Jewish We're so happy to have you back if you're here for the first time bro. Him have I am I've come accustomed to say and if you ever the first time I got this our 20th episode I am Thriving with excitement if you can do such thing. It's really cool to be back for our 20th time with the original co-host Yair El Dan. I am Oliver Joseph, this is Yair El Dan. We are Really Jewish. We are a podcast talking about big topics that affect the Jewish world and what it is to be really Jewish. We're back for our 20th week and we're talking about Judaism and creativity. I think one of the big questions that we, you know, we sift through, Yair. First of all, how are you? Yair Eldan: Good, you know. Same uncertainty as always in the last few years. Good to see you. Oliver Joseph: Really good to you. So we always sift through what the topics are going to be. And this is one that's stayed on the top for our 20th episode Judaism and creativity. It seems really pertinent to talk about, you know, what's that magic? What's magic in Jewish tradition, which both permits and promotes such creativity in the Jewish world and keeps also this religion vibrant. Gary, what's important about Jewish creativity in your imagination? Yair Eldan: I oppose to your proposition. Listen. I mean religion itself for me, every religion is part of human creativity, obviously. I mean I don't feel that religion is different than other human creations. It's a beautiful creation and it actually could enhance our imagination, but my feeling is that nowadays Is actually opposed to creativity, to openness. There is something about it and Jewish religion with no exemption. I mean you could see it in other religions as well. Obviously, we can talk about the Jewish genius, and there was something about our religion that kept us going and be creative. But I feel that we are in a very dark time from in my point of view. And I feel that religious people are in a way putting legs to creators. I mean, that's my feeling in Israel. What's your take on it? Do you feel that religion actually enhances? Restraining. Yeah, sure. Restraining. and do you think that religion and Jewish religion in particular enhances creativity? Oliver Joseph: when you say putting legs you mean restraining creativity right No, it's interesting. I want you to present some tangible examples because, listen, this is the point of the podcast, you are secular, I am religious, that's the kind of, I think it's more complicated than that, as we often discuss that's the whole shtick. But I often see our religion in kind of a naive lens where I don't quite perceive of the toughness or of the perhaps the dark side of religious life. Listen, think presented in the text in some guys or another is a core creativity, whether it's the kind of, you know, talking in preparation about Bezalel. Bezalel, the divine artist singled out by God to Moses. to describing the creation of the Mishkan. He's gonna be the one who's endowed with the divine spirit, Ruach Elohim, to create the Mishkan. I think on a kind of very base level, there's a creativity that's woven into the fabric of Torah, whether it's the creation story. One of my favorite midrashim is the description of the I think the high priest tunic and it describes duck the kind of fine golden thread that's woven through and it says it's this fine I think Rashi says through the midrash the fine golden thread is actually the first aspects of the earth that's flattened at creation like for me that's a creativity the creativity of the midrashic voice of the rabbinic voice which describes how all of the texts is woven together and holds together. So I think you come out very strong here, which is good. This is why we're talking about Orthodox religion or extremist Jewish religion that's suppressing creativity, which I can see, which I can totally bring on board and accept. But at its core, I believe there are threads of creativity in the tradition, which should then in perpetuity and in process inspire creativity. Yair Eldan: listen, I think it's very important to actually define what is creation for us, what is creativity. And I think for me aesthetics alone is not enough. I mean and I think it was never enough in a way and obviously as you say I can look back the Jewish text and be full of admiration to for the rabbis and the writers of the text of the biblical text and obviously the Tanaic text which actually they actually invented genres that they invented the Mishnah they invented the midrash beautifully done and actually and that's the main point for me. Creation And art for me is in a way something a little bit a little paradoxical, but it's for me to be committed or utterly committed to the idea that you shouldn't be committed to one idea ever. I mean to be committed to always be subversive always. And I feel that the Jewish tradition has obviously of a huge history in that sense. We're talking about since obviously the refusal of the women who delivered babies in egypt through the creativity of the rabbis 2000 years ago and also later but if you ask me i mean when i look at my childhood and we grew up in a very different environment because i grew up religious and i feel that there was something a contra create creation I mean in the environment that I actually grew up in because I mean being open asking questions having a different point of view about reality I think all the things that we actually define creativity by and how could Bitzal for you Oliver how can Bit Sal actually do and create all the object of the Mishkan in a very beautiful way without having a sense, a very, very deep sense that, you know, he could actually say something about the world through the creation of these objects. and I don't feel that, you know, nowadays religion, religious life promotes this kind of of atmosphere. That's my point. Oliver Joseph: But you're saying that at its essence, creation has to be subversive. Are you saying that Betzalel's creation is at its core subversive? Yair Eldan: I mean I didn't look very deep into it, but take for example the Sistine Chapel, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel where Michelangelo was actually appointed I mean it's a very religious it's creation within religion when you think about it in a way it proves your point. But if you look into it, I think you will see and I'm not I mean people said it a lot about this the ceiling. And you know Michelangelo is describing the creation of Adam and God and Adam are actually equal when you think about it and they have the fingers are not touching. And I think there's as people say before me, there's something very subversive about this kind of description of the creation of Adam, this equal description of God and man. so I think we can find it in every every creation and if not I think there's something about this creation that is not full It's not only about, you know, describing the world in a very beautiful aesthetic way for me. Oliver Joseph: Great. mean, I like this. I like this definition of creation as a subversion, but I also, and I'm not trying to subsume my version of creation into yours, but I also think that. there's something there like the you know, this base midrash on Betzalel that's found in Brachot where it says here, Ravi Huda Amarav Yoder HaYa Betzalel Le Tsaref Otiot Shinivra Behem Shemayim Va'aret and it's the Betzalel somehow new to to manipulate or to reshape perhaps the letters that created the heaven and the earth. Like that sounds to me in your definition like a subversion. It's a subversion in the sense of the description is the creative description is of Betzalel reshaping letters that were originally intended in the creation story to re. purpose them for the creation of the mishkan for this traveling temple which followed the children of Israel around in the desert. But it's also a subversion in the context of the rabbis who were manipulating the personality and the images of Torah in order to achieve some kind of inclusion or co-option of Betzalel into the story. So I see that creative subversion and maybe I see this creativity and manipulation, manipulation, hopefully not, I'm not using the word manipulation as a pejorative thing as a negative thing. In this context, just kind of created manipulation as a core part of what it is to be Jewish. And I fundamentally accept that in some of the extremist corners of our current religious dogma in our current religious communities that sometimes that creativity is totally ignored and totally repressed. think that's definitely an aspect of, I mean, in many ways that's an aspect of why I'm a rabbi that I wish to stand here and represent the rabbinic creativity of the generations and the possibility for Jewish creativity even inside this ancient tradition. as a fundamental and important part. But what I'm observing here is the tension between those two places that I believe that we have a tradition which has within it great layers of creativity. mean, think you correctly identify from the very top the kind of, you said it better than I can, kind of form creating rabbis, they kind of... created the genre of midrash, which was, you know, for our listeners who are flying the wall listening for the first time, the midrash is the rabbinic interpretation of the biblical text, which relies on all sorts of creativity, association with numbers and association with the reworking of words, and switching letters around inside words, and switching words around inside text to mean different things inside the text. and all sorts of innovation that certainly wasn't in clear ways present in the text from the beginning. And in that way, in many ways, the rabbis were kind of key and core primary innovators of a whole genre of literature. So I guess in some way or another what I'm describing is that as rabbis, as teachers, part of our job is to preserve and to champion that kind of creativity. And I think if I'm to push back on you, that's my job. you're throwing the tradition under the bus actually. Rather than lifting up the aspect of creativity and say look at this, this is what we need to be, this is who we need to be, this is where we need to go. Is that an unfair accusation to my 20th episode esteemed wonderful year colleague? Yair Eldan: Totally unfair, totally unfair and predictable by you. But I would say, I would say that tradition Jew religion has a potential to promote creativity and it actually materialized the Jewish tradition that I know. materialize this potential and I think when you think about it and it's actually there's a question for you embedded in my words now. I think that tradition when you think about creation has this two ways that it can choose. One or actually proposing us one is you know imitatio dei to actually imitate God And there is something wonderful about it. not to work on Saturday as God didn't work, you know. to do things that actually makes us feel and act in the world. In a better way because we actually look at ourselves as the image of God and we have to imitate God it himself. But on the other hand, we have in the Jewish religion, and I think in other religions as well, this gap, this huge gap between human and divine, and actually saying don't cross the line, don't ever cross the line between them. And I think religion is actually, you know, debating all the time between these two. And it's actually very it's it's connected to creation in its very core. Right? and for me, and this is a question for you, okay? This is a question for you. Harold Bloom, I think, was a person who actually said that he compared the process of creation of writers to Kabalic processes. And he said the creator, the writer, can act could can actually create only if he makes place for like a space inside him that is free from God. That God actually, you know, I don't know, reduces himself, mitzam tsem itself, reduces himself in that way it makes place for the person to create. I think for me as a secular, it's a very Correct, accurate way to describe creative process. In order to create, you need to be not, deeped inside the divine water. You have to make space for yourself. So my question for you is how do you feel about it? I mean, for you creation comes from actually divine inspiration or from actually putting God aside for a bit and letting your human, you know. I on the world. Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: I love the question. It's a great question. And again, it gets the core of where we are. Listen, I have a very strong memory of one of the first leila sedes, one of the first Passover sedes with my machatonim, I think, is that Yiddish or is that Hebrew? My in-laws. And I said, it's like we're deep in the Maggid, we're telling the story of the Passover seder of the Exodus from Egypt. and I throw up in my hands, like, it's not like this is even a true story. So why do we read this craziness on Passover? And the kind of a few cousins who are actually still listening like kind of like turned to me and like, he's a rabbi and he's saying these things at the Passover table. So I do think, you know, it's a cute story, but it's also. Yair Eldan: Wonderful. Oliver Joseph: in some way or another the framing of the line of religious creativity, I think, because on one hand, I'm a religious person and I wake up in the morning and I put the filling on and I say the word Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohein Adonai Yachad God is one, the people are one. Make a declaration of faith. And in the same moment, I do think that part of my job as a rabbi is to present, well, both, both reverence and irreverence at the same time, like a kind of treading a path between a belief in God and living by mitzvot, which I think I do think is an important aspect of the role and the dogma, the example that a rabbi presents. And I also think as a Masulty rabbi, as a progressive rabbi is to present the aspect of uncertainty of the creation story of the story of the extras from Egypt of all and every tenant and story of the tradition that there within it lies uncertainty because I think that's a representation of that because I think that's true and I'll say I think it's a representation of the Torah tradition but more so the rabbinic tradition which I think presents all sorts of corners of uncertainty and tragedy and travesty and questions. And the opposite is a travesty. The opposite is a repression of creativity where you say all of this is divine and questioning is prohibited and antithetical or opposed to our tradition. So I think to answer the question more directly, think absolutely does. I think, you as you described as well, the creativity of the creation story is the ultimate creativity. Like in the first, in the bet of creation, the first letter of creation, there's like some kind of intrinsic creativity that we're tied to and encouraged towards. But then also, really connect with the the Hilo the Halal you have to create inside the Kabbalistic void that you have to create inside and that you described in order to permit creativity I believe that also sounds very Jewish that from nothing you must create I believe in the possibility of that, that true creation. then the interesting part, I think, is then how do we weave that creativity, some kind of like, from nothing, kind of totally contrary creativity to the presentation of life that we see before us, back into the tradition. I think that's the interesting and the creative part is how do the rabbis and how the Jews in in their totality and even in the modern era, weave back the various stories of our people back inside the tradition. You know, the text that we spoke about just briefly before we came on is the Tanor Shalachnay, which definitely one of our late and blessed teachers, David Hartman, definitely spent a lot of time talking about in his, we both, we met at the Hartman Institute by the creative hands of Rabbi David Hartman. And he describes a story where the halacha is supposed to be in the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer. And all of these creative things happen to support the... version of Rabbi Eliezer, which is the tree is turned upside down and the water flows upstream and he seems to have this kind of divine creativity which suggests that the Jewish law should be in his favor. And ultimately, Rabbi Yeshua stands up and says, is a quote from the Torah, that the Torah is not in heaven. The Torah is not in heaven. And it's actually the Michelangelo image. It's like the Michelangelo image of it's here, but it's not here. That it's ultimately this Torah is not divine. It's divinity, but only to this point. And that there has to be an aspect of human creativity in the mix. And ultimately human beings will decide. you can take all of your magic hocus pocus. of making the water flow upstream and inverting this tree in midair and you can shove it because ultimately the human creators will be the decider of this Jewish law. And David Hartman of Blessed Memory, I believe if I'm not misquoting him in any way, correct me if I'm wrong, is using this text as a core text of a corpus of many texts which says, Ultimately, we need to be the deciders of the tradition on earth. L'obashamayimit, it's not in heaven. The Torah is not in heaven, but it's down here in our reach. And that seems to me a good description of human creativity, that we are people who ultimately decide and need to temper our belief system and, you know, God willing or not good willing, kind of our fervent... connection with the Creator and desire to be intimate with God and know God with human striving and a human sense of our own capacity. Tell me your response, Yair. Yair Eldan: Listen it's a beautiful example, the Akhnai Avin in its in Baba Mitsia. I'll tell you why, because obviously a lot of pluralist liberal Jews as our rabbi David Hartman you know, used this text to show how religion can actually, you know make itself more accessible and actually change in light of social change. and they used it to show what you actually said, Lobashamaimhi. But I think it was Danny Statman from University of Haifa who wrote a beautiful article about it and I think he's very right. He says that, you know, we tend to neglect the fact that a lot of people are Actually, took another note from this story saying that there is something authoritative about Allaha. There is something about Alakha that is not open to different ideas and the reaction towards Rabili Ezra Gadol, this huge, huge Talmud Khacham that had a different independent opinion. And they just the rabbi just shunned him. They actually excommunicated him from their society and he didn't you know, he didn't teach since then onwards. And and there's something as I said in and what is so beautiful and that's why I said it's a beautiful example. because it actually says what you said before, that there is something about religion that there two sides to religion or two paths that you can you should you always go through them and You said something you said you described it as dealing with uncertainty and inspiration and I think that's very right because uncertainty is very important for creation. I mean a person who is confident person who feels well, a person who doesn't have any problems will not create. I don't think it will create. God doesn't create obviously, he's whole. So he doesn't want anything. So I mean he just sits there as Aristotle says. But human beings in order for them to create, they need to feel uncomfortable. so creation and uncertainty and asking questions and debating over the their lives, I mean the life the human life is you know essential part of creation. And I think religion is always, you know, I liked the description of going through uncertainty and then going inside the inspiration and there is a kind of movement inside and outside and it's wonderful and I think institutionalized country religion has part of the guilt here. I mean something about institutionalized religion is when you put power, money and in into you know, all sorts of the human spirit and you combine them, I don't think good things come comes around. and one of the bad things is connected to you know depressing creation feelings in humans. Oliver Joseph: Right. so what, where are you left with this? Like where do you go? As I often say at this point in the podcast, much of the Rulijuhrsh podcast is also kind of the deepening of the topic of where it, if it was in my sphere, where does it affect in us, these topics? Cause we can talk very academically. And I think, we've done a good. Don't want to congratulate us too soon, but we've done an interesting job of like unpicking this topic of creativity that it's divine and it's not divine and that we need to make space and that I absolutely think that in its essential sense that Yair Eldan: Ha ha ha. Oliver Joseph: we need that there must be an irreverent aspect to creativity, perhaps in its purest form. I also note here that you kind of mentioned, ha'elohut hashalem, like the kind of, or the unmoved mover, the God who is complete, but also notice in the Kabbalistic description, and the Kabbalistic description, which is lent to the Hasidisha, the Eastern European kind of dynasty of mystical thinkers, that the God makes space. exactly as described before, but some semit that's more like has to make space, has to make imperfection in order to permit the possibility of creation. So in that way, in a small way, you have a description of the necessity of imperfection, the necessity of some kind of urgency, even if it's an imposed urgency to permit creation. So I think we have that gone. Yair Eldan: I'm not Freud who actually treated religion in a way as a neurosis and It's not only an invention, it's a problem for him. Not for me, not for me. But I do look at myself as an Israeli, Jewish Israeli living in Israel as a kind of gift for me as a Jew. As a Jew, because as I told you before, there's something that allows me to actually, I mean, because I have this. the state and the s the language that keeps me Jewish and I feel confident that I you know that I mean I felt. I felt confident. and obviously the uncertainty of the last few years, as we fed we said before, for me was a writer was something good about it because I wrote a lot and I produced some of my texts under this state of uncertainty, but going back to what I said before, the basic core feeling here in Israel is that you know I can make space. I can make space and I feel sorry that a lot of the tension between religious Jews and secular Jews in Israel nowadays is actually around this actual issue because when you speak to religious people in Israel today, nowadays There is something certain about them. They live in a world of certainty and they are sure about things. Whereas I you know I with my doubts and with my you know questions and that leads, I think, to creation. And obviously when I meet A religious person who is who has you know the ability to open itself to doubt, it's a beautiful meeting. It's a it's a wonderful meeting because we can actually speak. So we can actually create together when you think about it. But without that, there is no chance. Oliver Joseph: Sarah Beth came on the podcast Sarah Beth Neville, last week, and she was talking about, is Judaism spiritual? And she's talking about kind of Hasidic spiritual practice of going into the woods and speaking to God. listen, where else is there a description of a spiritual practice which also deals with the end self. The end self in the Hasidic tradition or the Qabbalistic tradition is the God without end or the God without limitation. But also in that practice of speaking to God, something which I'm probably not very good at, there's also acknowledgement of absence. I think in this spiritual tradition, in the acknowledgement of presence, you also acknowledge absence. And when you speak into the void, when you speak without any response, you're acknowledging a gap, like an absence of God and a desire for God to be there. Listen, think we absolutely need to be people who speak out on the need for Jewish creativity. And I also think a part of this time also for me has... You know, over the last years, a fostering of urgency of the Jewish mission, a fostering of urgency of my own mission and my own work of, think my creativity has also come from a sense of need, a sense of lacking that I, know, 11 years as a rabbi, how do I place myself? How do I find myself in this work? You know, significant and severe moments of doubt in my mission as a rabbi, particularly after October 7th and particularly after hearing so much pain and suffering both in the world generally and from the Jewish community, the people that I work with and work around. And out of that, 20 episodes of this podcast, know. this moment of profound honesty, not to be then also self-promoting, but like the stuff comes. That we acknowledge moments of lacking or moments of vulnerability or moments of emptiness and lo and behold, our passions are charged and we find ourselves doing new things. And for me, that's creative. me, that's tremendously empowering. even if I for a moment imposed that upon myself, that sense of urgency or that sense of lacking. can be a drive forward to then achieve and create and that's in part this project. Yair Eldan: yeah, I just I really want to say that what you said about there's absence in every acknowledgement of the presence and of God. I think it's wonderful. And I just want to say my feeling is that there was there is a kind of hipuch, how do you say puch where things Oliver Joseph: inversion. Yair Eldan: there is an inversion in Jewish life. The rabbis two thousand years ago, they because of the absence of God, they wanted to make him present. So we have a lot of alachut, a lot of rules. That makes us feel that God is around us. Bahuchata we bless. Bahu chata. Blessed are you. We we refer to God in a second, you know, if he is present, as if he is present. And my feeling is the inversion is people nowadays they actually refer to God as a fact, as present, and they go from that, you know, to the world. And I think and if we could go back to what you said, I mean there is something absent in every acknowledgement of the present, of the divine present in our life, I think we will be better off as Jews and as human beings. Oliver Joseph: I think my last word is that there is also kind of a dark edge of some of the stuff that comes up on our social media, which we won't go to today, but of people like accusing Jews of being creative in dark and mysterious and wicked ways. And that's also hard to contend with in 2026, because, you know, I believe in the Jewish project and I believe in our creativity is a people and I ultimately believe that part of the endurance of this people is the promotion of creativity. So on one level, we must not permit for kind of the forces of organized religion to suppress that creativity because that will ultimately be to the significant detriment of Jewish religion and we also mustn't respond to the dark forces out there that accuse us of being. creative to manipulative and dark ends. You know, there's a kind of edge there that we have to hold. Listen, I appreciate this conversation and I want to do more with you and thank you here for being my co-host for these 20 episodes on and off. I'll say a couple of closing words. Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. Hope you found something here. and thank you for your support. Thank you to Oy Vavoy for our musical intro and outro. Listened to their single Back to My Roots available on streaming platforms. I'm going to say a couple of words about what's coming up because it's a summer of guests and coolness. We've got Miriam Akrish-Laurie coming up, I think next week for a pre-Tisha Bav episode before the Big Fast Day on Heartbreak and Home. We've got my friend Vadim coming on, Rabbi Joel Levi is coming back. We have, yeah, he's coming back in August, so we're gonna do another in-person episode, God willing, in Jerusalem. And my friend and colleague Rabbi Ronnie Tavlik as well. We've got some cool stuff coming on during the month of August, so please stay tuned. Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. Yair Eldan: Min by men. Oliver Joseph: We are building this project on our 20th episode from the wheels up if you want to be a regular donor, check our Patreon, share this episode wherever you listen to your podcast and like and share our content on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. You've been listening to the 20th episode of Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Thank you, Yair. Yair Eldan: Thank you, Oliver.