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Suffering · Formed

0:09
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this second episode of Forms.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: The goal of this podcast really is to explore Christian formation, which is all about our growing love for God and our love for God grows in response to Him showing us more of Himself.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, one of our focuses this fall, the town church is corporate worship, and that's one way God shows us more of himself.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: So we look at that one week, different elements, different facets of corporate worship.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: And then on the off weeks, which is this week, we just take questions and topics that have been sent in to us about Christian formation in general.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's what we get to do today.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Um we've not done this before, so let's see how this goes.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I am joined, my name is Eric.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: I am joined by Jake Gonzalez, and our topic this morning is suffering, um, as well as a related topic of dry seasons in our spiritual life, which I guess we're just gonna get hit some really heavy stuff.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretty much.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I invited Jake on for a reason.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: I think that he's gonna have uh he's really thoughtful, but you've also experienced your fair share of suffering, Jake.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: So before we get into the questions, do you just mind sharing a little bit of your story and and uh why you're here, why I invited you?
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean I will say that it's uh it's nice to be here.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh hopefully what I have to say is uh um useful in some ways, um hopefully is beneficial to those who are listening.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so my name is Jacob Gonzales.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Um I am 36.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: I am a husband, uh father, and uh if you see me around the town, I'm pushing in the wheelchair, so uh that's me.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: You can easily spot me.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Um you sit toward the front, if you're facing the platform, left side, right in the corner.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: I spot you know it as much as as it is nice to be up front, I just really just to be out of the way of people's view, because if I'm sitting in the middle, I'm gonna block someone's view, and I just want to get out of the way and not be noticed.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so as Eric said, uh I have gone through my share of suffering.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: I feel like as all of us have, but um, when I was 25, um I contracted a virus that uh attacked my heart instead of my lungs, uh, which typically it would have.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: And I went into heart failure.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And through complications of heart failure, I had multi-organ failure.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Long story short, there's a list I can go through of all the complications and whatnot, but eight-week coma after eight eight week.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Eight week man, um honestly, I didn't know it.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was 10 because honestly, at some point, I'm I'm really not there.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everyone else experienced my coma except me.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so eight weeks in a coma in summer of 2015, woke up, and uh because of complications of the heart failure, I had a uh acquired, which I don't love that word, but acquired a brain injury, and uh that's why you see me in uh wheelchair, and uh I had a heart pump that helped my blood flow out flow through my body.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Less than a year and a half later, I received a heart transplant in May of 2017, and all throughout that, our first daughter and only daughter was born.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean since then uh it's been you know off and on, just complications, figuring stuff out, always tinkering things, always adjusting, but by God's grace, I'm l I'm sitting here talking.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Um and the fact that you can understand a single word is uh miracle, God's grace, in of itself, because I wasn't able to talk when I woke up.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: So um I'm here that was 2015, 2016 now, so it's been over 10, 11 years that I've been awake.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, some some suffering a little bit.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean, even a part of the story is Eden.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Um who was born to you shortly after all of these things happened.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And we as a church have walked through some of that with you.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you mind just briefly sharing what that is?
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, for Eden.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: For Eden, yeah.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh my daughter Eden, if you guys haven't met her, uh Eden is 10 years old.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh when Eden was uh almost seven, she uh had her first uh epileptic seizure, it was a grandma seizure.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh out of nowhere, huge surprise.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Um and over the next 12 days she had five more uh grandma seizures.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: And then over the next three years, she she was seizure free for a time with medication, but then on her worst days for months at a time, she would have close to a hundred a day.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Man, um and then after that, we finally got her uh ready for surgery or brain surgery to see if they could remove the section of her brain.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: May of 2025.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: She had uh frontal lobe rose section, and she so she's been seizure-free now since that surgery for a year and like three months, and uh so it was rough for a long time.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Um but it's not like she'll never have one again, there's no guarantee.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: But she's doing well, she's a typical 10-year-old with EDHD, just you know, rocking and rolling.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: So, but again, by God's grace, she's here and we can continue to have her in our lives.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man, Jake.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, thanks for sharing that.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have seen your fair share.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could argue more than fair share, although that gets tricky with suffering and challenges in all sorts of ways.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And I also know that you're a thoughtful person who cares a lot about theology, who loves Jesus, and so I am wanting to have this conversation with you with some questions that have been sent in.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: These are some really good questions.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: So let's just get after the first one.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, this question is this What does suffering have to do with Christian growth?
7:26
SPEAKER_01: And is it part of the Christian faith?
7:29
SPEAKER_01: How do we suffer well?
7:31
SPEAKER_01: So maybe let's just break that question down a little bit and start here.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Is suffering a part of the Christian faith?
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And we're done.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, it I mean it is.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean if you uh take a step back and think about it, as a Christian, our Messiah, our uh our God uh suffered with a purpose, on purpose, uh with a greater uh purpose in mind and people in mind.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Um so the Messiah that we believe in and put our lives in in his hands, we his life was marked and was intentionally sent forth to suffer for his people.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, yes, it's going to be a part of his children's lives.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even if we just think biblically, suffering is all over the Bible, isn't it?
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And I I'm at there may be characters, maybe some minor characters that we don't have their suffering recorded, but I'm I'm hard pressed to think of any.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh I just am thinking of all the characters that we see in the Bible who experience severe suffering, whether it's David or Job or Moses or Abraham, like on and on and on the Old Testament, New Testament same.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, the apostles, and then a lot of the letters they send to the early church, um, they're writing to believers who are in the context of suffering.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, whether it's being like directly persecuted for their faith or if they're suffering for other reasons.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think in First Peter and and others.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's all over the Bible.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, we see it personally, you've seen it personally, as part of your life is suffering.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think we can for sure safely say that suffering is absolutely connected to the Christian faith.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: So here's the next part of this question is what does that have to do with Christian growth then?
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I did I hate I would hate to try to answer with the prescription or this is definitely going to be a reason, but there I we talked about this before.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: I think there are some general reasons or reasonings of why suffering is just in our lives.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Um well, for one thing, uh there is I there is two types of suffering.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Um one is suffering as a part of the consequence for our sin.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like Adam and Eve, um their suffering, their uh lack of relationship and closeness, communion communion with God, is a consequence of their choice of sin.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: So that is suffering.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: So there is suffering from the very beginning.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Um so there so there is that.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: So there is a purpose in that uh consequence.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: And then the unjust suffering, I think, is what most people kind of have questions about.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Um again, it it's it's it's so hard to kind of give a succinct one-word or one sentence, but I think we can look and see for the Christian life, the Christian faith, what does it look like?
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Specifically, I when I went through what I've gone through so far, there have been things that have stood out from scripture that have reminded me of what God is doing or what he wants in this.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: The first thing I I went to and always thought about was uh uh uh 1 Peter 1, 6 through 7.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And we also talked about James, um about uh enduring trials, and in 1 Peter talks about being tested by fire, and that fire is to reveal genuine faith.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think there it that cannot be necessarily comforting, but the truth of that fact is that suffering is going to happen and it's going to reveal uh who you are and what you believe and who you believe in.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: So to me, that's like the very elementary foundation of where I go to.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: But there's plenty, plenty others.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: So suffering, at least in part, has almost a purifying sort of effect where different pieces of us are being burned off.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: It probably might feel like burning too, are being burned off.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Um and what's left is being revealed when things are stripped away.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I've experienced it, but I'm sure uh the people listening uh have also experienced like if you've gone through uh any suffering, whether it be exact it's not exactly, and no one's suffering is exactly the same, but at some point you're like stripped to the point of like I I'm at the end of me.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: There is no nothing else that can um satisfy.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: There's no I can't fix this.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: So whatever's left of me is still uh enough if you are in Christ.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: That's all you have is Christ and that strength and that life that He has given you.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Even when you had nothing in and of yourself, um that's enough.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: So help me connect this stripping away and this burning away to Christian growth.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Um make that connection for me.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean when you you are tested and put through the fire as that imagery goes, and what you have in this life is God and God alone.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: I I truly believe that's when you are the most able to grow.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Because when you believe that you can add or you can contribute or assist in God's growth in you at all, then that's hindering you from growing.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: But when you are tested by fire and you're burned down to a point where like you're I don't know kind of at not rock bottom, but like that's all you have left.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Um that's when you realize that God gives the growth.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: Um God is the one who saved you uh of his own bear of his own doing.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's when you're that's when I find myself more open-handed to accepting who he is and accepting what he has for me in this, as opposed to trying to you know, white knuckle trying to help him do it when he doesn't work that way.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Is there you you might not have an answer to this, Jake.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Is there a point in your own story where that was uh you felt that pretty clearly?
15:05
SPEAKER_01: What you just described, or was it less of a point in time and more of a process as you're looking back now, you're seeing that?
15:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, in all honesty, you when I think about my story in particular, this again, even this answer is not like satisf like it didn't ring true for a lot, because I think if my suffering did not happen in this specific way, it would have it would have taken a lot more and a lot longer to uh bring that out of me.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: But when I woke up from the eight-week coma, and it was kind of a slow process getting off medication and whatnot.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Um when I woke up and I couldn't speak on my own.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: I had uh sign through numbers to speak.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't breathe on my own.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: I was in a ventilator, I couldn't even move because I all my muscles were called the atriate.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Couldn't um yeah, so I couldn't roll over, I couldn't uh speak, eat, breathe, any of it.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean I woke up at like you have nothing.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: So in my story specifically, um I woke up with no ability to live, no ability to uh continue on my own.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: I literally had assistive devices to assist me.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: And when I woke up, instead of being angry by God's grace, miraculously I was I did not wake up angry.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: I woke up grateful and uh like kinda broken by the fact of my inability.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: So specifically that it's kinda hard to reject that you're unable to please God on your own when you can't physically do anything on your own.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: But then as I've kind of gone along over these last uh 11 years, there's a plenty of times where I'm like I I literally can't get to like a cabinet, or I can't do these simple things where uh I can't get into my bed on my own or whatever, whatever it might be.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Um that just to me has always reflected my inability to please God without God's help, without God being at the center, the motivator, and the source of everything I do.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's kinda hard.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: It's it's hard to pinpoint times outside of literally waking up from coma.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Man, uh yeah.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh would would you say that um suffering in some ways uh eradicates this illusion that we are independent, that we are able to accomplish all these things on our own, that we have control, that sort of thing.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's again yes.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh no, yeah, it's so when I when I woke up from the coma, I was in a step time rehab, there's a point to what I'm saying, it's I'm not just mentoring.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh one of the nurses asked me, by the way, if you're a nurse, don't ask your patient two weeks after they just woke up from coma, oh, what have you learned throughout this?
18:47
SPEAKER_00: But this nurse did, but I did have a response.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: And by God's grace, and genuinely by God's grace, my answer was control is an illusion.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: That's what I said two weeks after I woke up.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Because yeah, it it shrewd me down to really believe that oh I can control the outcome.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: I am in control of my life, I'm in control.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we're called the self-control, but everything else I was trying to control to some extent.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And uh, yeah, you learn that pretty quick.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: When you have no control over even your own body, you learn that the ultimate control, ultimate sovereignty is not in your hands, never was, never will be.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: It does seem like, and we're we hate this, but it does seem like suffering is one of God's most common tools he uses to grow us and to shape us.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know all the reasons why.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: I know we hate it, but like just life plays that out biblically, that gets played out.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Scripture after scripture talks about how God uses suffering.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: And so we have a sovereign God who's over all of it.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Um I haven't I Jake, I I just man, I'm so curious about about your own story a little bit.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Um so you're what 10, 11, 12 years removed.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Eleven.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Eleven years removed.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Um you're still and you will forever feel the effects of it.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: You are dependent now on others in ways that very few other people are, and you will always be.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, are you at a place or do you ever arrive at a place where you see that suffering as a gift from God?
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: You didn't hesitate when you said that.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's a gift that to steal the lines of someone else to exist is a gift.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: To live on this planet, let alone in in the mercies of God is a gift.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Um so a part of life is going to be suffering.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: It just is always happening, again, always will be.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So yes, ever if everything's a gift, then that suffering is a gift.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't w I don't wish again, I'm s I'm kind of stealing kind of uh someone else.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: But the idea that so if I'm if everything's a gift, then the suffering's a gift, and it doesn't mean that I wish it happened.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Or I wish it happened on someone else.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: But it did.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's i it's here.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: So this is a gift as well.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Just because it's not fun doesn't make it bad.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Nor is that to say that the suffering of folks who may be listening to this podcast is somehow minimized or isn't as painful or is just kind of a shallow answer.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Um not to say that at all.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: And everybody's situation is a little bit different.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, uh there is something profound that God does in the midst of suffering.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: There's another piece of this question.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: The last piece of this question is how do we suffer well?
22:31
SPEAKER_01: What a great question.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh do you have thoughts around that, Jake?
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, I mean, I I do think throughout scripture there is there are plenty of examples of suffering not well.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh like shaking your fist at God or outright denying God exists because of our suffering.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Um that is a natural response to it though.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: In and of ourselves, that is how we'd all respond to any suffering is by sinfully rejecting God's role in it.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: That is how we would.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: So when you say shaking fists at God, you're not saying being honest with what you're feeling.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: No.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: You're saying um uh I want to say can anger toward God, but that that can be a part of being honest in suffering.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: You're saying something a little bit different though, isn't it?
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: What are you saying?
23:34
SPEAKER_00: So uh in scripture when it talks about like shaking your fist at God or that kind of imagery, is that it's like a outright willingness to disobey, but also to rebel.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Is to outright um reject God God in his entirety because of X, Y, and Z.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Um so it's not just a it's not an expression of your uh pain, it's in it's a further application of because of there is this pain, God is not as he has said, God's a liar.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And because God's a liar, I'm going to rebel.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Um so we want we want to guard against that as we suffer suffer well.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, sorry, I interrupted you.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: So that is a natural response, is that in and of ourselves uh we will reject a God because it feels contradictory or feels like um we feel a deepness to our pain.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: But then throughout scripture, we do see people who suffer well.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean perfectly, that doesn't mean like they have a smile on their face throughout throughout the whole time.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: If that were the case, I mean Jesus is I don't think Jesus was on the cross smiling because he was suffering.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: So you suffer well, I think, and again, we talked about this before.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to give like a prescription or like I do these five things and you suffer well.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Here's a five-point sermon on suffering well, and do these and you won't it'll be easier or it will diminish your suffering.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: Um I do think there's an element of uh just just outright faith and going to God Himself in that suffering.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And again, since we have talked about it, just going to God and expressing your pain, expressing not just your emotions, but also your thoughts about what's happening.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: God does not shy away from those things.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: In fact, seems like I think biblically we can even see this.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: We see all through the Psalms, there's even an invitation that God desires you to be honest and present with Him in all the things you're thinking and feeling.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Which isn't going to the ditch of I reject you, God, you aren't who you say you are, although we may struggle with those things.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: It's different to struggle with those things and turn away from God.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: That's different than struggling with those things and bringing them to God as part of being present with God.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even the bringing it to God is an act of faith.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Because you are assuming certain things, you're believing certain things about God.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so even even the act of going to God in the first place is a positional you have to have a heart uh to if you're in in Christ, you are putting yourself in the position of God is higher, God is um over us, and he is our father.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to our father.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even in the Lord's Prayer, what is what are the first words of the Lord's Prayer?
27:18
SPEAKER_00: We're going to God, our Father, or in Luke, just Father.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: So it's a you're putting yourself in submission to God.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: So just even going to God in the first place is I believe it's an act of faith.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Um again, that doesn't have bigger implication.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying it's an act of faith and submission to God as who He is.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: So part of suffering well is coming to God, honestly.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Um it sounds like it's also this might be the wrong way to put it, but holding on to what we know of God is true, even though we may not be feeling those things are true.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Holding on to that is a piece of suffering well, so not a rejection of God where you never go to Him anymore.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Um anything else come to mind, Jake, on suffering well?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: I'll say there's some experience, but then this is is from Scripture, which is the reason why I I have I have experienced it.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Um the local church is a huge uh gift and a blessing from God as well.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: The local body that you're committed to, and again there is that commitment to the a local body, which is I think very biblical and needed, and at this time is not I don't know in in vogue, but God has created a people in a local body of believers.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: I I when I was going through this time, a local body of believers has been involved in my li and our lives, not just my life, my family's lives.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Every day of our lives, we've been a part of a local church, whether that be in Illinois, Missouri, North Carolina, California, and now Colorado, hopefully, you know, for the rest of my life.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh every single day we have been a part of a local body, and God given the gift to carry our burdens, to for us to carry others' burdens.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: It's not just about them serving the suffering, but the suffering being in the church and helping each other as well.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a grace that uh I think a lot of people, and even myself included, we overlook and then we don't value as much as uh even what God has for us.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh Paul writes in at least the first letter that we have to the church in Corinth, that when one member suffers, all suffer.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: So it's this idea that your suffering you bring to the community that you're a piece of, rather than isolating or avoiding or ignoring.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: In the second letter that we have to the church in Corinth, this may be a familiar passage.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Let me read this.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: This is what he writes.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: He writes, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation, and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: This is a group project, and in that in some beautiful, gracious way, the comfort that we receive from God Himself we then extend to others in community.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: I think that that's a huge point on suffering.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, yeah.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to add to that outside of the uh I mean just another truth of God in his word uh describing the church as a body.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And uh to give a visual example, when you stub your toe, it doesn't just affect your toe, it affects how you live your life.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: And you're going to attend to that, you're going to try to mend that, you're going to try to uh bring it back to its health, but also you're going to s take special care of that toe.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: You're going to do everything you can to make sure that you are at you know quote unquote 100%.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: So I mean for us when we've gone through things and for others when they go through things, we are to be there for them in a special way when we are experiencing uh suffering.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: So when we suffer well, we suffer well by being part of a body that understands its role to take care of you, but then also when you were not the one suffering, you can also be there for each other.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: In Second Corinthians, you can also uh extend that towards others, and that's way easier and way way more straightforward when you know who those people are, yeah.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: When you know your local body.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: So the blessing of the church is, you know, I think overlooked in some ways, and I I but it is it's not super simple at all times, but it's super necessary.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: There's uh another question here related to this.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Um the question is this that was sent in.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Is learning to forgive connected to the theology of suffering in the Bible?
33:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, this is not something that I think I have thought much about.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Um we talked a little bit before we started recording.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's see if we can explore this a little bit.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Probably our answer is not fully sufficient or satisfactory, but let's see if we can explore this a little bit.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Is learning to forgive connected to the theology of suffering in the Bible?
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I don't believe I don't believe all have or we have the answer to how and every way.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: Cause I believe even this question, but just in general, whenever we I ponder it myself, when you sent it to me, yeah, it was not something directly I've thought about like a whole lot, but it is something that is from scripture in God's sovereignty, in his plan, suffering is connected to forgiveness.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh just as an example, we have a suffering uh servant uh in Christ who has gone to the cross and has suffered, and if you look through Isaiah 53, uh he they would say the Messiah would be afflicted, he would be crushed, he would be oppressed, he would be pierced, all these different things uh for his people to bring them to himself to make a people.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: But outside of that, it's it it is so case by case that it's hard to give a general answer.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: So I've been I hesitate to give a specific answer.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Just uh maybe it's just out of fear that I'm going to chip over a landmine I don't necessarily see, but it's definitely in scripture a God put himself on this earth to suffer um for a purpose, for a reason, to bring forgiveness uh to his people, to his children, and that has implications for us too that because Christ forgave us, we forgive others.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: That's in plenty of the epistles.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so but it's hard to necessarily give a nuance answer when it is kind of a um when there's a bigger uh feeling behind it, I feel like.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I my my assumption is that some of the context for this question is that there's suffering being experienced because of the sin of somebody else.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: This isn't just a health or related to nature or something like that, but somebody is causing suffering in somebody else's life.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: Um the the the the basic gospel truth that's so profound that this is what God did.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: He sent Jesus to suffer for us to affect our forgiveness to him is incredibly profound.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: And by extension, that that relates to us too.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know the specifics of this situation either.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: In fact, um, if you're listening, you sent this in, I'd be happy to talk about this more in person and explore that with you.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is, though, I think, something about um suffering causing us to be um to maybe feel the depths of forgiveness required that the lack of suffering may uh allow forgiveness to be more shallow in some ways.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, the suffering that can be experienced at the hands of somebody else can be incredibly intense.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And that puts you then, if you have been, if you've received that suffering, that puts you in a place of considering forgiveness of that person by God's grace in a very dramatic, sort of deep, probably heart-wrenching, what may feel impossible sort of way.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: That you likely aren't in the depths of that if if you aren't experiencing suffering um in that same sort of way.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: So there's something there.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to fully explore that because I haven't wrapped my head fully around that.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: But it it does seem that that maybe pushed us a little bit closer to having just the tiniest taste of the sort of forgiveness that's been extended to us because of our sin that was accomplished through Jesus also.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, the as we were speaking, uh the one thing that comes to mind is they the idea and the maybe it is just a quote from R.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: C.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Sprall, um that sin is a cosmic treason, and I think in some ways when this when this idea of forgiving another uh comes into play how real and how much it affects our lives is so it it's so nuanced that the the one thing I know for sure is that every sin that we have committed every sin that we either are recommitting right now or the sin we will commit is an act of rebellion and um act of pain and suffering we are uh committing against our creator and it's an act of yeah, it's an act of outright rejection for his goodness and his perfection.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: So every sin that we commit is doing that, and yet God accepts us, um and God welcomes us, his children to himself.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So the I feel like the greater we understand also that we understand our sin against God Himself, the greater we see of His forgiveness, His mercy, His grace that then so the more we focus on that also can maybe also give us a greater will of grace and mercy for those around us.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make it easy.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make it like, oh, because I know this this is gonna happen.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: It's it's not I know that from personal experience and those around me, but so just a deeper understanding of the forgiveness and in Christ that God gave us.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh I do believe we'll give a uh a deeper will of grace and mercy and forgiveness at some point to those who have caused suffering in our lives.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: And then the context of Christian formation, these questions so far about suffering, suffering well, forgiveness connected to suffering, like these times in our life where we're feeling suffering acutely are some of the most dramatic times when we're being shaped.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Either being formed into uh more Christ-likeness and what God has for us in that and those painful and those hard, or being deformed in ways that we get bitter, resentful, um prideful, whatever it is.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: But it's happening dramatically, one way or the other, whether or not we feel it in the moment um or not, it's happening.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: And so if you find yourself in an acute season right now of suffering in particular, I would encourage you to pair up with somebody that you trust, or maybe a couple people you trust, to help raise your eyes and encourage you in these moments in appropriate, tactful ways.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm not we're not talking platitudes, but to maybe be curious with you like what is the Spirit doing?
41:43
SPEAKER_01: What's God inviting you to in this season?
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, because this this season is so formative.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: So a little encouragement there.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: If you're in the middle of suffering, probably doesn't feel like encouragement, but a little bit of encouragement there, like major things are happening in our soul on this.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Here's the last question I want to hit in this episode with you, Jake.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's not exactly the same those two questions, but there is significant overlap.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: And the question is this why does God allow us to go through spiritually dry seasons where we feel distant from Him?
42:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there is similarities in the uh question of why does God allow suffering uh in our lives in the world, all these things.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: There are similarities in our responses and uh purposes, but again, it's so tailor-made to the individual that God has allowed to go through that dry season is so tailor-made for that person that they may be things that you experience in it in after, but also there's things that you may never see how it affects your life, but also other people's lives.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And um so I want to get that kind of foundation out out of the way is that it's it's kind of similar in that way to to suffering, is to um ultimately bring glory to himself, but in that myth he also uh brings you closer to him.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Again, doesn't feel like it.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: That a feeling doesn't make the objective the subjective does not make the objective change.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: So God's nearness is objectively the same.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: Subjectively, but we don't feel it.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: And when we allow the emotions to dictate our lives over what is true, it it can be it can drive.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: To despair.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: But if you are in Christ, the feeling of being distant and uh again I've experienced this, it's like if I feel like like everyone the objective uh reality, objective fact is that God is with me, God is in me, the Holy Spirit is guiding me.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: I may not feel those things, like you may not feel the emotional high of certain aspects of your Christian life, just life in general.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: But um Yeah um why does God allow I c I'm it's hard outside the fact that I can just genuinely say he's trying to make you not rely on your emotions maybe, or not rely on your sense of his nearness.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: He's trying to uh bring something from that scenario that is gonna take some time to to see.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: Um but again I also think there are things that your dry season, your suffering is for someone else's good.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: That's hard.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: That you might suffer or be in a dry season where God actually has somebody else's good.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: I I wanted to say primarily in mine.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know that's the fair way to say it, but he's going to use your suffering for somebody else's good.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: That that's tough.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: Um I I think there's a couple ditches to avoid here in the dry seasons, and you touched on this a little bit, especially when we're thinking about feelings, because often those things will help us define when a dry season starts.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I just I don't I don't feel God's like you said, intimacy, God's nearest nearest, that sort of thing.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: One ditch to avoid is, and you mentioned this, is to allow our emotions or feelings to tell us what is objectively true.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: That's not the role of emotions and feelings.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Um the other opposite ditch is to avoid or ignore our emotions and feelings and just pretend like they don't exist, that we just need to logically think everything through.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: That's another ditch to avoid.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: Like emotions and feelings are something that God's given us, and they're they are a gift, but we I think we have to learn how to use them, right?
46:25
SPEAKER_01: So emotions and feelings, I'm ripping this off from a couple other people I've read, but I think they're right.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: They're I think best used to be indicators of something going on in our own hearts and our own souls.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's like a uh, I don't know, it's like a hot air balloon that's anchored on the ground.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, we see the hot air balloon, but then to use that emotion or feeling to try to get down to the bottom of the anchor, like what's going on under there?
46:46
SPEAKER_01: Or I've heard the analogy, they're like lights on the car's dashboard that are going off.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: They're telling us something's going on with the engine, um, but they're not telling us what which is the right road to take as we're driving the car, so to speak.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: So those things are wrapped up in spiritually dry seasons.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: They don't tell us what's objectively true or emotions, they also aren't to be completely avoided, they're all a piece of this.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: And so, spiritually dry seasons, it feels like a lot of that emotion is taken away.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: The intimacy with God is taken away.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: One one picture that I'm ripping this off from somebody else too, but I think this is so good.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: I've shared this with some of you, um, but I'm gonna repeat it again.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: There are seasons where we feel close to God, and those are beautiful seasons, they're gifts by God's grace.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: We feel close, we feel intimate, and the picture is like I'm on a reservoir that's filled up.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm on a boat, the sun's out, the birds are singing, gentle breeze, maybe the back, the mountains are in the background, and I'm just I'm just kind of maybe I'm paddleboarding.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm paddleboarding around, and it is beautiful, like all's well.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: My soul's full.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Those are beautiful seasons.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: But it seems like the majority of the Christian life doesn't, doesn't, isn't there, right?
47:52
SPEAKER_01: And so there's other seasons where that water starts to drain out of that reservoir.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: We're still floating around on it.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: It gets lower and lower, it starts to get a little ugly when it's getting starting to get really hot out.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: It's lower, and now the waters are really low level.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: These are the dry seasons, and you maybe you're still on your paddle board, but now you're starting to bump into a shipwreck, and there's fallen logs, and there's big rocks down there, and the feeling of it just being smooth is gone.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not, you're bumping into things.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, the gift there is that those things you're bumping into have always been in your heart and your soul.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you didn't realize them when you're floating above them all, but they were still there.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: But then God, by his mercy, it's even it doesn't feel like it, drains that water out and wants you to now notice those things that were in you as an invitation now to bring those to him.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it's time to do some work on those things.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that doesn't feel good.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: We don't like those seasons, but there's simply a different sort of gift from God, and the invite being, hey, I want you to notice that shipwreck there.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: That was in your heart.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: I want you to trust me with that, and I've got something for you in it.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: So would you bring that to me?
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in that same vein, uh biblical counselor, uh author, uh David Pollison does say um yeah on this topic, he says uh that drug seasons can be used to expose what heart has been actually trusting for sense of nearness.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: So it can expose uh the the what's been replacing uh God in his truth and just that the Holy Spirit the re like the actual spirit, his nearness, like answer prayer or emotional heights or circumstances being sufficient to uh aid your nearness.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: So I do believe that there is a sense that what David Paulison is kind of getting at is yeah, can a similar thing to what you said, Eric.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: The those things are underwater, those things are not seen because either those things have not been dealt with or those things are actually what's propping you up.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: And and they're they're not they're not understood or realized, and yeah, they need to be dealt with.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Until until things are wrong, you don't realize what was making you feel right.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: So I I think one thing that's profound about all of this um is that times of spiritually dry seasons are not times to avoid, ignore.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: Man, I think I would argue even just to try to short circuit and get through as fast as possible and wish away.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, part of that's true.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Like we don't we don't want to stay in those seasons.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: But part of that's not true.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: Like there if that is a gift from God, then we want to receive what that gift is and not just try to get out of it as soon as possible.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: And so it just changes some posture, maybe in the spiritually dry seasons.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: Um there's a book in our library.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: If you want to explore this more, that I've ripped some of this, some of these thoughts off of.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: It's called uh, I think it's called When God Seems Distant.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but highly recommend it.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Check that out.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot of good material on spiritually dry seasons.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: There's also a book that I read over now 15 years ago called When I Don't Desire God by John Parker.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: That book also uh was I was in a dry season, and that also served me.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, Jake, I'm gonna leave it there.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: I want to wrap this up.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you for joining.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sharing your story, sharing your thoughts on these really good questions that have been sent in.
51:45
SPEAKER_01: And thanks for those of you who have sent in cop topics and questions.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: Um you've sent in some really good things.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: If you have other things you'd like to talk through, um, or you'd like to meet or explore something, please let me know.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd be happy to talk more.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: You can email me.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: My email address is eric e-r-i-c attownchurch.org.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: I'd be happy to correspond so we can get figured out.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Can I say one more thing?
52:13
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: Um I just personally want to uh express that my sorry what I've gone through, and I even I think we share this and talk to us a little bit.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily love uh the idea that this is like if you're going through suffering or you're going through a dry season or you're struggling to know how to forgive.
52:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh I know you don't you're hesitant to bring it to people because either you don't want to be like defined by this one thing or this will reshape how people think about you or whatnot.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: Um But I just want to say that your suffering whether you do not compare it to those around you.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: Me.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: When you hear my story, please don't uh compare it and say, Oh, it's less than so it's not worth worthy or I'm not worthy, whatever it may be.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: Your dry season, your suffering, your confusion or your lostness is not nothing.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: Don't minimize.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: Don't minimize and please, for whatever it's worth, do not uh attempt to fake it till you make it.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: Or you know, just hide it or not speak about it because uh you'll get over it.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: Please bring it to either someone who's been through some stuff and you know maybe they have some perspectives, but also bring it to people around you, the church, the the elders, whoever it might be, close people who are close to you and just talk about it and seek to get better and and uh confess.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Um do not let do not walk through this in the dark on your own.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh let the church walk with you.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: That's all I can say on that.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jake.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: Next week we are going to look at an element of our corporate worship.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're gonna look at the liturgy, just kind of a high view picture of the liturgy and hopefully ask some good questions about it.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully you can make make it uh make it?
54:37
SPEAKER_01: Does that maybe make sense with the podcast?
54:39
SPEAKER_01: Turn it.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: Hope you can listen or press play.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't I never know how to end these.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't do that well.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's why I mean uh well I I mean generations is different, I guess.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: My sentence press play.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Look it up, press play.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: You can't download it, that would help with the stats and numbers, but um just pray.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: Look press play.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: Don't I mean pray, but also press play.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: There you have it from Jake.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Press play.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: Bye.