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Spoiled Saturdays: Sinners · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Smitha and welcome Stephan. I
0:07
Speaker 1: ever told you a prediction of iHeart Radio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And we're a little bit late with this specific episode edition,
0:22
Speaker 2: but we wanted to do the award winning movie Sinners,
0:27
Speaker 2: and because it was just released last year, you know,
0:30
Speaker 2: it has to be a Saturday spoiler, so a lot
0:33
Speaker 2: of feminist movie necessarily, it is a feminist movie in retrospective,
0:36
Speaker 2: like we're doing this as a movie, but it's a
0:39
Speaker 2: spoiler Saturday. So obviously, lots of spoilers ahead, lots of spoilers.
0:44
Speaker 2: And if you've been fortunate enough to not have been
0:49
Speaker 2: spoiled already or know anything about it, that's the best
0:52
Speaker 2: way to go into a movie, So you should stop
0:56
Speaker 2: and watch first and then come back. Yeah, spoiler alert.
0:59
Speaker 2: I will say I knew nothing about this movie until
1:04
Speaker 2: I watched it. So when I realized it had vampires
1:06
Speaker 2: in it, I was like, wait, what did you know
1:10
Speaker 2: much before you started watching it?
1:12
Speaker 3: Yeah?
1:13
Speaker 2: I did you do get some on it?
1:16
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:18
Speaker 1: I find I'm really having a hard time avoiding spoilers
1:21
Speaker 1: these days, and I'm not entirely sure.
1:25
Speaker 3: I think it's my.
1:25
Speaker 1: Algorithm, but yes, I did know that there were v
1:29
Speaker 1: Empires involved. I knew that music was a key element,
1:35
Speaker 1: and I knew that it had a kind of gothic.
1:39
Speaker 2: Vibe, Southern Gothic, and I've talked about how much I
1:43
Speaker 2: love Southern Gothic, and this is absolutely the epitome of
1:47
Speaker 2: Southern Gothic horror. So hello, Also, content warning, we do
1:51
Speaker 2: talk about death, racism, a lot of hate speech. I
1:54
Speaker 2: don't think we'd say any of those things, but you
1:56
Speaker 2: know it's obviously in there. This is going to be
1:58
Speaker 2: taking place in the nineteenth two, I believe, so lots
2:03
Speaker 2: of racism in that point in time. We are not
2:06
Speaker 2: going to talk a lot about the controversies that are
2:09
Speaker 2: occurring at this point. It is February twenty sixth and
2:12
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six if you're wondering asp recording this, so
2:16
Speaker 2: but when instead, we're going to talk about what we
2:19
Speaker 2: thought was really significant about this movie and some of
2:22
Speaker 2: the things that I was very fascinated by in this
2:25
Speaker 2: movie as well, So go ahead and put that there.
2:28
Speaker 2: And yeah, this episode is going to be a bit
2:29
Speaker 2: different because this movie is so layered. So not only
2:32
Speaker 2: do we have want to talk about the movie plot
2:34
Speaker 2: and ending, but the history of the many first of
2:37
Speaker 2: the movie was able to have, and then some of
2:39
Speaker 2: the themes around it as well. So let's get we
2:43
Speaker 2: are currently in awards season as a part of the Writers' Union,
2:47
Speaker 2: we get a lot of emails and sweet this is
2:51
Speaker 2: one of those. This was one of those movies.
2:54
Speaker 1: My mom is so impressed by that, even though it's like, honestly,
3:01
Speaker 1: it's great, but it's not that impressive, but thinks it's
3:04
Speaker 1: the coolest thing.
3:07
Speaker 2: Well, again, I've been able to attend a screening with
3:10
Speaker 2: a Q and A with one of the stars for
3:11
Speaker 2: one of the movies because of that opportunity, so, you know,
3:14
Speaker 2: not this movie specifically, but Leanna Taylor was a blast
3:18
Speaker 2: to see, and that means the movie world is buzzing
3:21
Speaker 2: with a lot of whispers and controversies, especially around Sinners.
3:25
Speaker 2: Unfortunately it is in the middle of again, in that
3:27
Speaker 2: middle of the whispers and conversations. I know things have
3:30
Speaker 2: arisen with the Baptist, which should have been in time
3:34
Speaker 2: for celebration, but things kind of overshadowed it. But it
3:37
Speaker 2: doesn't negate the fact that they are winning and getting
3:41
Speaker 2: the accolades they truly deserve. We know when it was
3:43
Speaker 2: first released and talks of awards were coming around, there
3:46
Speaker 2: was a lot of like dispute about whether it's worth
3:50
Speaker 2: as much as these other movies. And we've had a
3:52
Speaker 2: lot of people coming out with support for Ryan Coogler
3:56
Speaker 2: and this movie in general and why it does deserve
3:59
Speaker 2: to be at the top of the list for the
4:02
Speaker 2: movie's released of twenty twenty five. And I agree with
4:04
Speaker 2: that statement. This is a phenomenal movie. It was unique,
4:07
Speaker 2: it was a different take. I loved it. Currently, the
4:10
Speaker 2: film has four hundred and twenty four nominations including Best Picture,
4:14
Speaker 2: Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor and Actress, Best Score,
4:18
Speaker 2: and Song, Production Screenplay. And this is with the Academy Awards,
4:22
Speaker 2: they I'll get have so much more. It currently has
4:25
Speaker 2: two hundred wins, including the recent BAFTET for Best Supporting
4:29
Speaker 2: Actress and Best Original Screenplay, Critics Choice Award for Best
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Speaker 2: Young Performer and also Original Screenplay. I think how four
4:37
Speaker 2: undred twenty four is a lot and some of the
4:39
Speaker 2: first we want to celebrate include the fact that they're
4:42
Speaker 2: the first film in history to earn sixteen OSCAR nominations,
4:47
Speaker 2: like Blew Out the Water including One Battle after Another,
4:50
Speaker 2: which has thirteen nominations so, and this is first also
4:55
Speaker 2: for a woman of color to be nominated for Best Cinematography,
4:58
Speaker 2: and that is Autumn Chyenne World Chapel, which is phenomenal
5:02
Speaker 2: in itself. Did you have more information on that? You
5:05
Speaker 2: and I talked about this filament because she was such
5:09
Speaker 2: a big part of this movie and she had just
5:11
Speaker 2: made history with that nomination.
5:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when we were talking about what movie we
5:16
Speaker 1: wanted to do for this month, I really wanted to
5:20
Speaker 1: talk about this one because because of that historic nomination,
5:24
Speaker 1: but because I believe this is also historic in terms
5:31
Speaker 1: of how many women have been nominated in technical fields
5:38
Speaker 1: that is not unfortunately that's kind of rarer, but that
5:45
Speaker 1: I don't think she's the only one. I believe there's
5:47
Speaker 1: some some other women in the field, which is great,
5:50
Speaker 1: Like that is an amazing thing, as sad as it
5:56
Speaker 1: is at all, right long, but it just felt so important.
6:02
Speaker 1: And when you get a movie that gets this many accolades,
6:06
Speaker 1: that gets this much attention, you have to think about
6:13
Speaker 1: the cinematography of the person who put it together and
6:17
Speaker 1: why it worked so well. And yes, it was a woman,
6:23
Speaker 1: it was a woman of color like that. I just
6:28
Speaker 1: think that's so important and we should look to that
6:31
Speaker 1: and think about why that is.
6:35
Speaker 2: She did a phenomenal job. Some of the says again
6:38
Speaker 2: are just breathtaking, yes, and so memorable, so memorable. And
6:46
Speaker 2: there are so many articles out there talking about her
6:49
Speaker 2: process with Coogler and how they had to stage everything,
6:51
Speaker 2: and how they had to pre plan everything, how long
6:53
Speaker 2: it took to get it done, the procedures, and the
6:57
Speaker 2: actors talking about like coming back to see it and
6:59
Speaker 2: being like, oh, oh my god, that is amazing, Like
7:02
Speaker 2: that level of professionalism, that level of imagination in itself
7:06
Speaker 2: to come to the screen is beautiful. And they also
7:10
Speaker 2: had a verse for Ryan Kugler's ownership deal he made
7:13
Speaker 2: with Warner Brothers, and it was it made huge news,
7:16
Speaker 2: like people were like, oh damn, that's gonna be huge
7:21
Speaker 2: for the industry and the future of how negotiations go
7:25
Speaker 2: because it has given Coogler the rights to the movie
7:29
Speaker 2: after twenty five years. Again, it is not done with
7:31
Speaker 2: the directors in general to have ownership of their work,
7:36
Speaker 2: and this allows for him to receive royalties and all
7:38
Speaker 2: of the money after the fact, which typically go to
7:42
Speaker 2: the production studio. And that is an important conversation we
7:44
Speaker 2: need to be having about who is getting the money
7:47
Speaker 2: when it continues to blow up, when you have the
7:49
Speaker 2: anniversaries and when you have the conversation because we've definitely
7:52
Speaker 2: watched a lot of classics and know they put a
7:54
Speaker 2: lot of time and celebrating these films. Lord of the
7:58
Speaker 2: Rings could be a big example, and re releasing and
8:01
Speaker 2: reshowing and who is making that money Yep, not the directors. Yeah,
8:06
Speaker 2: So we love to see it like people were gaged
8:08
Speaker 2: essentially trying to coldn't imagine that he actually asked for that,
8:13
Speaker 2: and not only asked for that, but he got that.
8:15
Speaker 2: And it's really important to see that the right people
8:18
Speaker 2: get the ownership and get the accolades that they deserve
8:21
Speaker 2: and the credit and this is again and get paid
8:24
Speaker 2: so kudos. And I will say I'm interested in how
8:30
Speaker 2: that will change the future of negotiations right now, and
8:33
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are in that same
8:35
Speaker 2: especially as successful as it is. Love that. So with
8:38
Speaker 2: all of that, we're going to jump into the plot
8:41
Speaker 2: against Boilers ahead. If you haven't watched it, go watch it.
8:45
Speaker 2: So it's nineteen thirty two set in the Jim Crow
8:48
Speaker 2: South where we meet young Sammy played by Miles Kayton,
8:52
Speaker 2: in his acting debut. He's a youngin that they saw
8:55
Speaker 2: on social media singing and he's got an incredible boygel
8:58
Speaker 2: and I'm playing are also known as Preacher Boy. He's
9:02
Speaker 2: working out in the cotton fields, sending his daily Quota ray.
9:05
Speaker 2: The start of the day, he runs home and tries
9:07
Speaker 2: to find his beloved guitar, which is a nineteen thirty
9:11
Speaker 2: two dobro Cyclops resonator guitar. So like that thing was pristine,
9:16
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it took so long for them to
9:19
Speaker 2: get that, And for the composer Ludwig Gornson, who is
9:24
Speaker 2: essentially Coogler's partner in all of the movies, he was
9:27
Speaker 2: bound and determined to find that so he could get
9:30
Speaker 2: that haunting music that he knows is so part of
9:32
Speaker 2: the blues, so very important. Beautiful instrument, beautiful. It was
9:37
Speaker 2: a guitar that was given to him by his cousins.
9:40
Speaker 2: Smokes that twins and after realizing that his father, the preacher,
9:44
Speaker 2: had taken it, he goes to the church and is
9:46
Speaker 2: trying to get it from his father, who warns him
9:49
Speaker 2: that quote, if you keep dancing with the devil, one
9:52
Speaker 2: day he'll be following you home. When I was like
9:54
Speaker 2: h foreshadowing, which if you know anything about Southern Gothic,
9:58
Speaker 2: you have to have all the foreshadowing, all of it.
10:03
Speaker 2: So we now meet the Smokestack twins, Elijah Smoke and
10:07
Speaker 2: Elias stack Moore, both played by Michael B. Jordan, who
10:12
Speaker 2: have left Chicago to return home. They've come back with
10:16
Speaker 2: supplies and a plan to open a new juke joint,
10:20
Speaker 2: recruiting local legend Delta Slim played by Delroy Lindo, who
10:24
Speaker 2: actually is also winning some of awards out there. They
10:27
Speaker 2: also recruit Cornbread, a friend as the bouncer played by
10:31
Speaker 2: Omar Binson Miller Annie who was played by award winning
10:36
Speaker 2: one Nim Masoku who has been the part of the
10:40
Speaker 2: Marvel world and she was part of the Lovecraft Country
10:42
Speaker 2: which also has the same like Southern Gothic field that
10:44
Speaker 2: I love and horror obviously, and she plays the estranged
10:49
Speaker 2: wife of Smoke and Whodoo practitioner. Important. They got supplies
10:53
Speaker 2: from the neighborhoods shopkeepers Bo and Grace Chow, who are
10:58
Speaker 2: played by Lee June Lee and Yall, who are two
11:01
Speaker 2: of the Chinese actors that have been a part of
11:04
Speaker 2: this and have made pretty big headlines in itself. So
11:08
Speaker 2: we learned throughout the movie that Smoke and Annie are
11:10
Speaker 2: strange to the grief of losing their baby and Smoke's
11:13
Speaker 2: decision to go with Stack. They live a pretty hard lifestyle, y'all.
11:16
Speaker 2: We kind of know that they've been up to some things.
11:18
Speaker 2: We don't know what. They've got quiet reputation. You don't
11:21
Speaker 2: mess with these boys. You don't mess with its boys.
11:23
Speaker 2: I believe there's a legend that we do find out
11:26
Speaker 2: that may or may not have happened, because we find
11:28
Speaker 2: out also Stack lies to tell some tall tales, but
11:31
Speaker 2: they could have killed their father who was abusive and
11:35
Speaker 2: was hurting them, as well as so many other things.
11:38
Speaker 2: So and I think the legend of them are pretty true.
11:42
Speaker 2: As he immediately shoots people that try to rob him.
11:44
Speaker 2: He also pays for their healing for terror hospitals, so
11:48
Speaker 2: you know, great. But between Annie and Smoke, they obviously
11:54
Speaker 2: still miss each other, and she talks about continuing to
11:56
Speaker 2: protect him while he's out in the world through heart practice,
12:01
Speaker 2: and she's a great character. So at the same time,
12:04
Speaker 2: we see a stranger who is obviously injured rush to
12:07
Speaker 2: a home begging for help and refuge. From people who
12:10
Speaker 2: are hunting him. It turns out that people are Kkka
12:13
Speaker 2: members who were willing to trust this man since he
12:15
Speaker 2: was white and had gold. After the hunters turns out
12:18
Speaker 2: to be native indigenous peoples, the Choctaw nations specifically try
12:23
Speaker 2: to find this person, try to warn the couple, don't
12:27
Speaker 2: invite men. Don't invite a man, and you know, God
12:29
Speaker 2: God protect you, may or God protect you if you do.
12:33
Speaker 2: They leave, and then we see that the stranger has
12:35
Speaker 2: turned them all into vampires because he is a vampire.
12:39
Speaker 3: Vampire needs to be invited in, got to.
12:42
Speaker 2: Be invited in. So as claud Juke, which is what
12:47
Speaker 2: Smoke and Stack have put together, comes together, we see
12:50
Speaker 2: the party growing with good music and dancing throughout the night.
12:54
Speaker 2: Then during this time we get to see the historical
12:56
Speaker 2: look of music and different cultures coming together. The scene
12:59
Speaker 2: is incredible. We're gonna talk a little bit more about
13:01
Speaker 2: the scene later, but they do a moment of which
13:04
Speaker 2: it does transcend and call out, call out to the
13:08
Speaker 2: spirits out there, because it is it moves through the
13:12
Speaker 2: years and times, future and past and coming together through
13:15
Speaker 2: the music that that preacher boy Sammy is making. So
13:21
Speaker 2: we also have Mary, which I didn't mention before, played
13:23
Speaker 2: by Hailey Steinfeld, who is Stack's ex girlfriend who is
13:27
Speaker 2: also white passing. So her grandfather was half black and
13:31
Speaker 2: so she is able to pass off as white, and
13:35
Speaker 2: Stack had wanted her to marry to a white man
13:38
Speaker 2: and live comfortably, but she was in love with Stack
13:41
Speaker 2: so many things. Her father, her mother had just died,
13:44
Speaker 2: who had actually had helped raise Stack of smoke, and
13:47
Speaker 2: that's why she was in the town, and you know,
13:51
Speaker 2: decided she needs to go check this s place out
13:53
Speaker 2: and see what Stack goes up to specifically, and she
13:56
Speaker 2: stirs a lot of things up, though a lot of
13:58
Speaker 2: people didn't recognize her. When they do, they literally like
14:02
Speaker 2: welcome her back with open arms and let invite her
14:05
Speaker 2: into the party. So as the party continues, Samy inadvertently
14:10
Speaker 2: gets the attention of the vampire, whose we learned is
14:12
Speaker 2: named Remick played by Jack O'Connell and his now new family,
14:17
Speaker 2: but then quotes Burton Joan who are now vampires as
14:22
Speaker 2: the vampires again they cannot get in without an invitation,
14:25
Speaker 2: so after being turned away, they stay near, playing their
14:28
Speaker 2: own music and waiting. So it is very bluegrass sounding,
14:35
Speaker 2: but later on we have a wonderful Irish folk song
14:39
Speaker 2: by Remiic and then it latches onto the entirety of
14:43
Speaker 2: the crew. Barry decides to go and investigate whether or
14:46
Speaker 2: not they are coming to make trouble because you know,
14:49
Speaker 2: Stack and Smoke, or worry that maybe they're from Chicago
14:51
Speaker 2: coming to plot revenge because some things again have them
14:55
Speaker 2: imply that they went after some of the gangsters of Chicago,
14:59
Speaker 2: and if you know that, you don't want to be
15:01
Speaker 2: messing messing with them. So she goes and tries to
15:06
Speaker 2: figure out what's going on, but then it turns out
15:09
Speaker 2: she ends up being killed and turned as well, and
15:12
Speaker 2: then chaos and sues. Yes after Mary gets an invite
15:17
Speaker 2: back inside the club after the fact she didn't kill Stack,
15:19
Speaker 2: which causes the evening to turn very quickly. After being
15:22
Speaker 2: shot several times by Smoke, Mary runs out the club
15:25
Speaker 2: to declaring that they would kill them all and he
15:28
Speaker 2: quickly quickly and I love this part. I'm not gonna lie.
15:31
Speaker 2: Assesses the situation and try tries to get Smoked to
15:34
Speaker 2: put Stack outside of the club because she knew something
15:36
Speaker 2: was wrong. This is not right. Uh. Later we find
15:39
Speaker 2: that Cornbread has been turned as well, because he decided
15:42
Speaker 2: to go he needed to go into the woods. And
15:43
Speaker 2: oh and Grace has also convinced Bo to go start
15:46
Speaker 2: the car because she knew something was wrong and he
15:49
Speaker 2: didn't come back either, So there are things happening, and
15:52
Speaker 2: and he declares what has to be done. She's like,
15:54
Speaker 2: all right, this is what's happening because Cornbread has come
15:56
Speaker 2: back and kind of revealed the fact that, yes, things
15:59
Speaker 2: are not all right. We have Stack coming back to
16:03
Speaker 2: life and very angry about it and runs out the
16:07
Speaker 2: club as well because they figured out things are not good.
16:11
Speaker 2: He is not okay. They are not okay with that, declares.
16:17
Speaker 2: Annie declares that they have to get garlic and steaks
16:20
Speaker 2: and make sure that they're not inviting anybody inside. That
16:22
Speaker 2: these are the rules of who they are, and she'd
16:26
Speaker 2: gone through different lures of what they could be, and
16:29
Speaker 2: says that the vampires are the worst of the worst,
16:32
Speaker 2: essentially that they are cursed to live with no sun,
16:36
Speaker 2: not I've never seen the sun again and never being
16:38
Speaker 2: able to reunite with those in the afterlife, and lit
16:42
Speaker 2: that she has predicted her own death that night and
16:45
Speaker 2: tells Smoke makes him promise that he will kill her
16:49
Speaker 2: before she turns so that she can be with their baby,
16:52
Speaker 2: and she's like, I have someone waiting for me on
16:53
Speaker 2: the other side, and so do you. Parts And with
17:01
Speaker 2: a controversial moment in which Grace loses all hope after
17:05
Speaker 2: being essentially rage baited by her now dead husband slash
17:10
Speaker 2: vampire husband and those around with them, threatening her their
17:14
Speaker 2: daughter Lisa, she yells and invite in pausing all of
17:20
Speaker 2: the vampires to storm into the club. We see a
17:24
Speaker 2: long battle and violence, and we see that Sammy is
17:27
Speaker 2: able to in the end escape after so much And
17:30
Speaker 2: by the way, I forgot that Remiic was focused on
17:33
Speaker 2: Sammy and even said if you send me him, well
17:36
Speaker 2: we will let you all live. Just give me Sammy
17:39
Speaker 2: is his music that I'm drawn to, as his father
17:42
Speaker 2: had said, and of course Smoke was not having that.
17:46
Speaker 2: In the end, after a long battle, Smoke was able
17:49
Speaker 2: to save Sammy, unfortunately anyone else, and Sammy is able
17:53
Speaker 2: to escape. At the same time, Spoke has destroyed the vampires,
17:56
Speaker 2: including the later Remiic, and we also learn as a
18:02
Speaker 2: part of the story that the person who sold the
18:05
Speaker 2: mill to the Spokestack Brothers was the Grand Dragon of
18:08
Speaker 2: the KKK and had intended to come back and slaughter
18:11
Speaker 2: everyone at the club with his crew, but Smoke was
18:16
Speaker 2: ready and able to take everyone out before his death,
18:20
Speaker 2: and as it ends, we see him being able to
18:22
Speaker 2: reunite with Annie and their baby base. We seen okay,
18:27
Speaker 2: and then we have an after math and after the
18:30
Speaker 2: credit scene I guess after a couple of credits scened
18:33
Speaker 2: in which we find Sammy all grown up and successful
18:36
Speaker 2: in his music career, played by legendary Bobby Guy, like
18:40
Speaker 2: he is a legendary blues and folk singer. So they
18:43
Speaker 2: were like, come be a part of this, and I love,
18:45
Speaker 2: I love. They were giveable to give him his flowers,
18:47
Speaker 2: and there we see Stack and Mary, who is not aged,
18:50
Speaker 2: who were able to survive that night because essentially Smoke
18:54
Speaker 2: was like, I'll let you live, just let sam leave
18:57
Speaker 2: Sammy alone, let Sammy be, and they had that promise.
19:00
Speaker 2: They celebrated together in which he talks with Sammy and
19:05
Speaker 2: Sammy makes a statement about like that was the best
19:07
Speaker 2: night up until everything went bad, and even though he
19:10
Speaker 2: had nightmares about bad night, it was still the best
19:12
Speaker 2: night of his life, and Stack agrees, saying, yes, for
19:17
Speaker 2: a minute, we were free. Such a good scene and
19:21
Speaker 2: then end scene. Y'all, y'all, just like any Southern gothic novel,
19:37
Speaker 2: to me, a good one leaves you feeling perplexed, Like
19:43
Speaker 2: there's this complex feeling of like, Okay, it's bad, but
19:48
Speaker 2: it's not bad, Like these all these tragedies have to
19:51
Speaker 2: happen and we grow from them, but it's still not
19:55
Speaker 2: necessarily a satisfying ending, but a satisfying ending, you know. Yeah,
20:01
Speaker 2: is that is that feeling? Is that lingering, the haunting
20:07
Speaker 2: that reps like it's not happy but it's not completely depressing.
20:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree.
20:15
Speaker 1: I think it's so much of this movie has that
20:21
Speaker 1: kind of feel. It has a feel, and a big
20:25
Speaker 1: part of that feel is you know, we made this
20:31
Speaker 1: beautiful thing and it was the best night, uh, and
20:36
Speaker 1: we were free for that night and then this is
20:40
Speaker 1: what happened, right, but kind of remembering what it was
20:45
Speaker 1: before that. And then I think that having that closing,
20:53
Speaker 1: because it's it's a post credit scene, everybody, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
20:58
Speaker 1: you don't know exactly, is really bittersweet because it's you know,
21:05
Speaker 1: you've aged in this in this instance, you've aged, but
21:12
Speaker 1: you see these people who were in your life, who
21:15
Speaker 1: have not who have become vampires and who come to
21:20
Speaker 1: see you, and just having that difference of experience and.
21:28
Speaker 3: That memory of.
21:30
Speaker 1: That night where your lives just went in completely different ways. Yeah,
21:39
Speaker 1: I just think that's a really powerful message of how
21:48
Speaker 1: you don't know where, you don't know where your life
21:50
Speaker 1: is going to take you, and you don't know, like
21:52
Speaker 1: the people in your life, you don't know what's going
21:55
Speaker 1: to happen to them either. And for Sammy, I mean,
22:01
Speaker 1: because he was physically really wounded, but for him to
22:09
Speaker 1: continue and to deal with what happened on that night
22:16
Speaker 1: that was both a wonderful night and then a really
22:20
Speaker 1: horrific night, right right.
22:24
Speaker 2: There's so much to that like and then that's kind
22:27
Speaker 2: of that level of today just about like joy and
22:32
Speaker 2: we talked we've talked about the black community really having
22:37
Speaker 2: to search for some of the joy, especially at times
22:39
Speaker 2: where they feel like they're most persecuted because they were
22:43
Speaker 2: or oppressed and during this time is that time, so
22:47
Speaker 2: having to measure the tragedies at the same time finding
22:50
Speaker 2: their joys where they can. It's like that inner layer
22:53
Speaker 2: of the constant battle that happens. And we can see
22:56
Speaker 2: that in so much like all this darkness. There's so
22:58
Speaker 2: much darkness right now in life and so many so
23:01
Speaker 2: much bad news and so many bad things, but trying
23:03
Speaker 2: to find those joyous moments too, and kind of like
23:07
Speaker 2: admitting to those joyous moments but understanding they're still surrounded
23:10
Speaker 2: by trauma. In struggle as well, I think there's so
23:14
Speaker 2: much in that. But this movie that again leaves that
23:17
Speaker 2: haunting so thoroughly that it's it's almost jarring to me
23:24
Speaker 2: because when I first watched it, I was.
23:26
Speaker 3: Like, oh oh, oh oh.
23:30
Speaker 2: And then I'll watched it again, I was like, oh, yeah, okay, okay.
23:33
Speaker 2: And then one of the big things that I think
23:35
Speaker 2: push and pull with the jarring movement is the music.
23:38
Speaker 2: And this was a big theme of the movie, is
23:41
Speaker 2: a big part of the movie. It's another character and
23:44
Speaker 2: driver of the movie, and I think it's something that
23:47
Speaker 2: we focus. I focused a lot on this because the
23:49
Speaker 2: music in itself, like can do a whole change in
23:53
Speaker 2: the mood in the context of all of that. And
23:56
Speaker 2: I wanted to go to this NPR article where they
23:59
Speaker 2: talk about his Blues Wrapper and all of this, and
24:03
Speaker 2: they write the film, set in nineteen thirty two, revolves
24:06
Speaker 2: primarily around ideas of Black spirituality and the music's placed
24:10
Speaker 2: in Mississippi Delta community's evaluation of righteous and iniquity, their
24:15
Speaker 2: references to Black Christianity and who do piety and profanity,
24:19
Speaker 2: and music foundation as a turn toward both salvation and damnation.
24:23
Speaker 2: The agnostic but faith appreciating narrative plays into this duality
24:27
Speaker 2: from its opening seconds quote there are legends of people
24:31
Speaker 2: born with the gift of making music so true it
24:34
Speaker 2: can pierce the veil between life and death, conjuring experience
24:38
Speaker 2: from the past and the future. A voice over explains
24:41
Speaker 2: this gift can bring healing to their communities that also
24:45
Speaker 2: attracts evil, and having Annie being the voiceover for that
24:49
Speaker 2: was perfect because she understands, obviously on a deeper level,
24:53
Speaker 2: what this looks like and the flashes of what we see.
24:57
Speaker 2: And I think, and we're going to talk a little bit,
25:00
Speaker 2: very briefly about the religion aspect, because it's a big
25:03
Speaker 2: conversation and I think I am and I'm not equipped
25:08
Speaker 2: to have this conversation because especially when you talk about
25:11
Speaker 2: the Black community, the enslaved and the colonization with Christianity
25:16
Speaker 2: and what we've seen in Christianity and the Christian missions
25:18
Speaker 2: and all of these aspects, especially when it comes to
25:23
Speaker 2: the damaging and the overall oppressing of other cultures through
25:29
Speaker 2: what they would call conversion or mission. So there's just
25:35
Speaker 2: a depth level, but the fact that they do have
25:37
Speaker 2: this back and forth about what does this music look like.
25:40
Speaker 2: So when we looked at Blues when it first came out,
25:43
Speaker 2: it was it was kind of looked down upon because
25:46
Speaker 2: having blues meant that you didn't trust Jesus. And though
25:49
Speaker 2: you know, Jesus was not a thing until they were
25:52
Speaker 2: brought to the US at the time, Blues have always
25:57
Speaker 2: been so trying to mix us, to do together. Is
26:00
Speaker 2: that deeper conversation the profound a look at culture and
26:05
Speaker 2: exactly as they did, they brought that culture here and
26:10
Speaker 2: opened the world to this beauty that is the Blues.
26:16
Speaker 2: And they the NPR article specifically talks about the Lows
26:19
Speaker 2: and they say, you can read the through line of
26:21
Speaker 2: Sinners in which Sammy, the lone human survivor of a
26:24
Speaker 2: remixed vampire horde abandonces followed this church to blade the
26:28
Speaker 2: Blues in Chicago. Despite the horrors, it brings to the
26:32
Speaker 2: Duke as not just a rejection of religiosity, but an
26:35
Speaker 2: embrace of the blues sorcery and its continuance as a
26:39
Speaker 2: sort of cultural necessity honoring the sacrifices that sustained the music.
26:44
Speaker 2: So again you have that overlapping of music and if
26:47
Speaker 2: you know, I think in the US, it's hard not
26:49
Speaker 2: to know the level of depth where it comes to
26:52
Speaker 2: music and what that brings. And then also the level
26:55
Speaker 2: of depth of music in religion. Like music, music makes
27:01
Speaker 2: you feel things and it is used that way, whether
27:03
Speaker 2: it's those moments that you need to be released, so
27:06
Speaker 2: you sing a praise song because you have to be
27:09
Speaker 2: thankful or you need to be thankful, or whether it's
27:12
Speaker 2: that moment of like you use it as a prayer,
27:14
Speaker 2: which we've known that as a huge conversation, you use
27:18
Speaker 2: it as a communication like people you see people doing
27:22
Speaker 2: praise songs with their hands out with their face lifted
27:24
Speaker 2: because they really emote through song. Is kind of that
27:28
Speaker 2: same level. We understand that the history of the blues,
27:31
Speaker 2: the history of a lot of black folk music how
27:33
Speaker 2: to do about seeking freedom and being able to communicate
27:36
Speaker 2: with each other as well. So there's just all overall
27:40
Speaker 2: being and then that Sammy has taken that route that
27:43
Speaker 2: he came for like salvation because he made it, but
27:46
Speaker 2: then he realized that's not his route, and he goes
27:49
Speaker 2: to Chicago in the end and become successful and has
27:54
Speaker 2: that taste of success.
27:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I hope any listener who is listening
28:02
Speaker 3: to this you've already seen the movie.
28:04
Speaker 1: But it opens with kind of a flashback. It opens
28:11
Speaker 1: with Sammy covered in blood, injured, holding a wrecked guitar,
28:21
Speaker 1: and then we go back from there to see how
28:26
Speaker 1: that happened, how that occurred. But I do think when
28:31
Speaker 1: we're having conversations about the history of the United States
28:37
Speaker 1: and the history of the black community in the United
28:40
Speaker 1: States and music and black contributions to music in the
28:44
Speaker 1: United States, it like we.
28:47
Speaker 3: Can't remove the pain, the damage, the like.
28:53
Speaker 1: You did all of this work and then it just
28:56
Speaker 1: got ripped away from you. And so I think that
28:59
Speaker 1: is because when they had this kind of beautiful moment
29:06
Speaker 1: and what felt like a very church like environment to me,
29:11
Speaker 1: just like the lighting and the like wood panels and
29:14
Speaker 1: all of that stuff, that it got infiltrated because of
29:18
Speaker 1: this invitation by the vampires, like somebody let them in
29:25
Speaker 1: and for Sammy to show up with all of these
29:29
Speaker 1: injuries and this broken guitar.
29:32
Speaker 3: It's just it's really powerful imagery.
29:36
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean the music is so key throughout
29:41
Speaker 1: the whole thing.
29:42
Speaker 2: Oh and y'all, one of the most haunting scenes is
29:45
Speaker 2: behind the song I Lie to You sung by Miles Kitten,
29:50
Speaker 2: and it's performed and it becomes such an interlacing so
29:53
Speaker 2: many ideals and cultural aspects. There's a lot to be seen.
29:58
Speaker 2: Like you, I've feel like I've probably watched this movie
30:02
Speaker 2: now about six times. I have not seen that scene fully.
30:06
Speaker 2: Like I have not watched that scene fully, even though
30:09
Speaker 2: I've seen it that many times. The technicality in production, choreography, layout,
30:13
Speaker 2: breakdown in historical context is magnificent. It is again breathtaking.
30:18
Speaker 2: It is almost overwhelming because there's so much to try
30:22
Speaker 2: to dive into. Actually, this is from an EWT Entertainment
30:26
Speaker 2: Weekly dot com article, and they write for Centers a
30:29
Speaker 2: movie that in many ways is about the transcendence of music.
30:33
Speaker 2: He wanted he being Ryan Coogler, wanted a cinematic representation
30:37
Speaker 2: of that experience, especially how the experience of an artist
30:40
Speaker 2: who heils from a particular community comes with a particular
30:43
Speaker 2: point a view that the audience fully understands they're participating
30:47
Speaker 2: in this performance in a way that becomes a feedback loop,
30:50
Speaker 2: the filmmaker explains, And if you've ever been present in
30:53
Speaker 2: an experience like that, it feels euphoric. For a moment,
30:56
Speaker 2: you feel so present that you almost feel immortal. It
30:59
Speaker 2: is like it's this context of like, Okay, this Begat,
31:02
Speaker 2: this BEGAT this. So if you know anything about the babble,
31:05
Speaker 2: it is just this continuation of a lineage that is
31:08
Speaker 2: a loop that it becomes. And from again from what
31:11
Speaker 2: I've read, they had to wait to the last day
31:13
Speaker 2: of filming to set the fire scene because they set
31:15
Speaker 2: the thing on fire literally and again it's magical and
31:19
Speaker 2: haunting because it looks so unique, like what you see.
31:23
Speaker 2: What you see is the perspective of the vampire remic
31:25
Speaker 2: of the end because he's seeing this, he is seeing
31:28
Speaker 2: the future and the like as well, and he sees
31:31
Speaker 2: the draw That's how it is strong through that fire.
31:33
Speaker 2: And back to that article, they say they somehow locked
31:37
Speaker 2: into the very spirit that drives the scene. For these
31:40
Speaker 2: characters that had the rotten luck of being born in
31:43
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty two Mississippi, that's where their adulthood would be
31:46
Speaker 2: experienced Koogles says, to have their transcendent experience where they
31:50
Speaker 2: get to spend time with the people that came before
31:52
Speaker 2: them and the people that came after them. Even if
31:55
Speaker 2: they don't know it, they feel it again that connection,
31:58
Speaker 2: that music, that art, it connects people. And I think
32:02
Speaker 2: like he does a great job in bringing that with
32:03
Speaker 2: having Buddy Guy play that character in Age, like bringing
32:07
Speaker 2: this legend together with another legend in the making, Miles
32:11
Speaker 2: Katon as well as Buddy Guy. Like there's this level
32:14
Speaker 2: of loop that we're seeing where they the before and
32:17
Speaker 2: the after and the beginning, like all these things we
32:19
Speaker 2: see that loop, that layer of coming together that I
32:24
Speaker 2: think he does a great job. And also again giving
32:26
Speaker 2: flowers where it's due. We've talked about trying to get
32:29
Speaker 2: flowers before, like it's too late, and this is kind
32:32
Speaker 2: of that level, like Coogler is a king of doing those.
32:34
Speaker 2: I feel like he does such a great job in
32:36
Speaker 2: making sure he brings people in that deserve to be there,
32:40
Speaker 2: and he makes sure to give the accolades and give
32:42
Speaker 2: the flowers and give them their credit way before and
32:47
Speaker 2: I can't just to see that in the cinematic feel
32:50
Speaker 2: in such a way that was unexpected, like it was
32:53
Speaker 2: unexpected the way it was perfectly immersed, the way it
32:56
Speaker 2: was perfectly blended, and I was like, oh oh oh.
33:01
Speaker 2: And even with that, adding like the Chinese culture in
33:04
Speaker 2: representing the Chow characters and how their backgrounds came into
33:08
Speaker 2: it as well, like who they were in coming into
33:11
Speaker 2: this place, everything about that with a cinematic layer also
33:16
Speaker 2: historical layer is such a unique perspective and so new
33:24
Speaker 2: in this industry to me.
33:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does feel very It feels very
33:30
Speaker 1: unique because it does kind of turn into a vampire movie.
33:36
Speaker 1: It feels like it turns into a vampire movie probably
33:40
Speaker 1: two thirds of the way through, and before that it's
33:45
Speaker 1: got you know, your Southern gothic something's going on all
33:49
Speaker 1: of this, but then this vampire element comes in and
33:55
Speaker 1: you do have all of these threads of what was
33:59
Speaker 1: going on in society at the time, and how they
34:06
Speaker 1: I really appreciate when creators, writers, directors can hone in
34:17
Speaker 1: onto who characters are quickly without like too much dialogue,
34:23
Speaker 1: and I feel like they did that really well, of
34:26
Speaker 1: who who these characters are, what their motivations are, and
34:31
Speaker 1: then vampires show up, and how does that?
34:35
Speaker 3: How does that change things? Does it change things? Correct?
34:40
Speaker 2: Oh, there's so much. I did have a quote from
34:43
Speaker 2: Ryan Koogler when he spoke with Indie Wire's podcast Filmmaker
34:47
Speaker 2: Toolkit about that scene, and it says he said, it's
34:50
Speaker 2: about that feeling of being at a live performance of
34:53
Speaker 2: any art when you see a virtual also perform and
34:55
Speaker 2: you're in the presence of a group of people who
34:57
Speaker 2: also appreciate the art form but also the context of
35:00
Speaker 2: it and know where the artist is coming from. They
35:03
Speaker 2: relate to what's being portrayed, and the feeling of euphoria
35:06
Speaker 2: becomes like a storm system. It's feedback happening and rippling.
35:10
Speaker 2: I've had a few of those moments in my life
35:12
Speaker 2: and you feel immortal, like you are outside of space
35:14
Speaker 2: and time for a moment, like there's another presence there
35:17
Speaker 2: with you. And it's true, like if you like really
35:20
Speaker 2: get into a song, you really feel that song, that emotion,
35:23
Speaker 2: it makes you cry, it makes your chill, so like
35:25
Speaker 2: you were in that moment, there's something that does feel
35:30
Speaker 2: like it stands still in that moment of like they're
35:33
Speaker 2: talking to you. Of course, this is kind of like
35:35
Speaker 2: when we talk about fandoms being developed and having like
35:37
Speaker 2: this deeper relationship because you really feel that this is
35:40
Speaker 2: a little different in that context, but like understanding that
35:43
Speaker 2: level of music and understanding the depth of blues and
35:48
Speaker 2: music on a whole different level. And as Delta says,
35:51
Speaker 2: Delta Slim says in the scene, he says, blues it
35:54
Speaker 2: wasn't forced on us like that religion, No, son, We
35:57
Speaker 2: brought this with us from home. What we do is
36:01
Speaker 2: sacred and big, and this is going back to the
36:04
Speaker 2: origins of blues and how significant and important it is.
36:08
Speaker 2: And during a time where I think the black community
36:11
Speaker 2: was trying to find their place in the US, especially
36:15
Speaker 2: in a place that wasn't accepting it isn't accepting of them,
36:19
Speaker 2: like finding their belief systems, following their religious systems, and
36:23
Speaker 2: then also remembering their culture like that that level, like
36:28
Speaker 2: remembering the blues as it was something that they brought
36:30
Speaker 2: with them, that's inside of them. The music that's like
36:35
Speaker 2: obviously penetrates everything today. It is that level. I guess
36:39
Speaker 2: that magic as sacred as big. And I didn't want
36:42
Speaker 2: to throw in here about the Irish music folk music
36:45
Speaker 2: because we had that moment, Like my partner and I'm
36:47
Speaker 2: he is Irish, but I do like one two tree
36:50
Speaker 2: for five moment that song. That's all I know, that's
36:53
Speaker 2: all I know. I know, like I was like, but
36:55
Speaker 2: it is really it tickles my ear in a nice way,
36:59
Speaker 2: but it is. It's like interesting to note that, just
37:01
Speaker 2: like in a lot of this, in this context of history,
37:04
Speaker 2: the Irish folk music and the blues did have a
37:06
Speaker 2: lot of crossover and collaboration and it was influential to
37:11
Speaker 2: bluegrass as we know it as well, like the intertwining
37:15
Speaker 2: uh the two, and like Remick, I really do feel
37:18
Speaker 2: like there's all this level of context and conversation, but
37:21
Speaker 2: the Irish really were coming into a place of trying
37:24
Speaker 2: to find their own place in a nation that was
37:29
Speaker 2: like nah, we don't want you either have Yeah, yeah,
37:34
Speaker 2: at that point in time and in this level of
37:36
Speaker 2: growing and bringing their own culture and their folk music
37:39
Speaker 2: and what that meant for them in that level. And
37:43
Speaker 2: so he represents that and he puts it well and like,
37:45
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not like them, I'm not like these white,
37:47
Speaker 2: racist white people. Oh no, no, I'm Irish And that
37:54
Speaker 2: depth of that I did appreciate that. And yeah, Jack
37:57
Speaker 2: O'Connell did a phenomenal job in a song and representing
38:01
Speaker 2: that as well as the characters who played Joan and Bert.
38:04
Speaker 2: They both are musicians and so they were brought in
38:07
Speaker 2: for their talents and that, and they did a beautiful job.
38:10
Speaker 2: I loved that first folk song they come in about
38:13
Speaker 2: the pick and Robin Clean.
38:15
Speaker 3: Yeah.
38:17
Speaker 1: I can't I mean, I don't think we can oversay
38:23
Speaker 1: the music is so good, yes, in this movie, and
38:29
Speaker 1: it's both It takes you back to a place in time,
38:34
Speaker 1: but it's also.
38:35
Speaker 3: Haunting in a lot of ways.
38:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. And when these the vampires are playing these songs,
38:44
Speaker 1: they're so good, but it's creepy. It's creepy.
38:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And they lay it out
38:50
Speaker 2: that way too. And with that, we wanted dump into
39:04
Speaker 2: about the cultural differences in racism and the dynamics that
39:08
Speaker 2: we don't often see or talk about, or sometimes we
39:09
Speaker 2: do talk about, like all these things. It being during
39:12
Speaker 2: the Jimcrow era. And I did get a lot of
39:14
Speaker 2: this from Historycantthide dot com because he went in and
39:18
Speaker 2: had a whole thing about the historical context behind the movie,
39:21
Speaker 2: and I thought they were really great. But he explains
39:23
Speaker 2: the Jim Crow era as this Jim Crow refers to
39:26
Speaker 2: the system of laws and customs enforcing a racial segregation
39:28
Speaker 2: in the American South from the end of reconstruction eighteen
39:31
Speaker 2: seventy seven until the Civil rights movement in nineteen fifties
39:34
Speaker 2: to the nineteen sixties. Now, that is something that the
39:37
Speaker 2: schools were teaching. I did learn about that in my time,
39:41
Speaker 2: so I hope it's still happening. Oh Lord have mercy.
39:44
Speaker 2: But it does talk about this level of segregation, the
39:47
Speaker 2: legal segregation that we saw, and I don't know if
39:51
Speaker 2: it started to play out again or whatever in that
39:53
Speaker 2: time and what that meant. You could see it in
39:56
Speaker 2: the scenes other than going shopping. And I know there's
39:59
Speaker 2: been a lot conversation a little more context of the
40:02
Speaker 2: Chinese shop owners in the South as well as how
40:07
Speaker 2: who was customers, but the fact that they had two
40:09
Speaker 2: separate stores, one was for the white customers and one
40:13
Speaker 2: for the non white customers, typically black customers. And it
40:16
Speaker 2: was an interesting look because it was right across the
40:19
Speaker 2: street from each other, so kind of like that whole
40:21
Speaker 2: saying of across the railroad track type of level of
40:24
Speaker 2: understanding that this is their size, this is our side again,
40:27
Speaker 2: that Jim Crow segregation level. And then also in which
40:33
Speaker 2: I believe it was a smoke who said they came
40:35
Speaker 2: back to the South because it's no different in Chicago.
40:39
Speaker 2: It was just instead of plantations, skyscrapers, large buildings there.
40:44
Speaker 2: He's like, it's better to be with the devil, you know,
40:47
Speaker 2: in that reference, and knowing that you know what to
40:49
Speaker 2: expect in the South versus what they expect in what
40:52
Speaker 2: they say is in the North. And we've kind of
40:54
Speaker 2: talked about that before, when sure it was better to
40:58
Speaker 2: technically sure they were the North and fought for the North,
41:01
Speaker 2: but that did not mean that they had respect or
41:04
Speaker 2: they had the actual equality that you would think they
41:07
Speaker 2: would as they played it out in the abolitionist movements.
41:13
Speaker 2: So that was that big conversation in that understanding of
41:17
Speaker 2: what this Jim Crow did for the entirety of the
41:19
Speaker 2: United States, who was seen as equal, who was seen
41:23
Speaker 2: as being able to be successful, on how to be successful,
41:27
Speaker 2: and so it was interesting to see both of that.
41:29
Speaker 2: And then also speaking about the Chinese American in the South.
41:33
Speaker 2: It's been interesting is it's been popping up because of centers,
41:36
Speaker 2: even the histories out there. Not a lot of people
41:38
Speaker 2: knew about the Chinese community specifically in the South, and
41:42
Speaker 2: how they kind of came over this way. And I
41:45
Speaker 2: found it funny because they have I've seen a few videos,
41:48
Speaker 2: have you anywhere you see old old Chinese people who've
41:52
Speaker 2: been in Alabama or in Mississippi all having the thick,
41:57
Speaker 2: big southern accident, And I was like, who are you?
42:02
Speaker 2: Where did you come from? And They're like, no, We've
42:04
Speaker 2: been here. This is what we know. This is the
42:06
Speaker 2: community that we know. And in this conversation, which I
42:10
Speaker 2: felt like home to me, I don't have that thick
42:12
Speaker 2: of an accent, but I definitely have an accent. Like
42:14
Speaker 2: just recently someone said you are not I thought you
42:18
Speaker 2: would be essentially telling you that you like white or
42:22
Speaker 2: not definitely not Asian, but I really did think it's interesting.
42:26
Speaker 2: So going back to that history, candthide dot com a write,
42:30
Speaker 2: Chinese immigrants began arriving in the Mississippi Delta after the
42:34
Speaker 2: Civil War, initially recruited as plantation labor to replace emancipated
42:38
Speaker 2: enslaved people. By the early twentieth century, many had established
42:42
Speaker 2: grocery stores that served a predominantly black clientele, occupying a
42:46
Speaker 2: unique middle position in the racial hierarchy of the segregated South.
42:50
Speaker 2: Neither white nor black Chinese Americans navigated a complex social
42:54
Speaker 2: landscape after facing discrimination, while simultaneously finding economic niches that
43:00
Speaker 2: allowed for a degree of autonomy. These grocery stores frequently
43:03
Speaker 2: extended credit to black customers and became important community spaces
43:08
Speaker 2: despite the constraints of segregation. Now, I want to go
43:11
Speaker 2: ahead and put this in here, because I'm a debbute downer,
43:14
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they weren't racist towards black people. I
43:16
Speaker 2: think they were. At that point they were all together.
43:18
Speaker 2: There was a moment of like coming together. But as
43:21
Speaker 2: we've seen, there's a lot of level of prejudices that
43:24
Speaker 2: happened within the communities, the Asian Chinese communities, Asian communities
43:27
Speaker 2: with the black communities, and vice versa. In this point, though,
43:31
Speaker 2: and we've talked about this before, the Asian community has
43:35
Speaker 2: somewhat been more accepted because of the model minority myth
43:40
Speaker 2: that was created and perpetuated in order to continue to
43:44
Speaker 2: oppress black communities. More so, there's this level that we
43:48
Speaker 2: will never not talk about when in this like we're
43:51
Speaker 2: not going to say, oh, yay Chinese people, yay Chinese
43:54
Speaker 2: Americas were all okay in this point, they were really
43:57
Speaker 2: a good community together and we do celebrate that, but
44:00
Speaker 2: we have known and seeing that white supremacy still can
44:04
Speaker 2: be a little more enticing for communities to try to
44:08
Speaker 2: reach for and step on others to get to that point.
44:11
Speaker 2: But I'd loved being able to see representation like that.
44:14
Speaker 2: I mean, the amount of Asian people who just jump
44:18
Speaker 2: into this costume play y'all. I've talked about this before,
44:22
Speaker 2: but the level of representation is so low that you
44:24
Speaker 2: just reach for anything, and to actually see actual representation
44:28
Speaker 2: and something as acclaimed as this, like you can't help
44:33
Speaker 2: them just fall in love.
44:37
Speaker 3: And love it more.
44:41
Speaker 2: I did. I also want to give a shout out
44:43
Speaker 2: to the fact that they brought in the Choctaw nations
44:46
Speaker 2: as well, and they made sure to differentiate who they were.
44:49
Speaker 2: That you made sure to use native language like it was.
44:52
Speaker 2: It was just pro blip And honestly, I'm like, if
44:54
Speaker 2: Googler wanted to make a prequel, I believed they're the ones.
44:59
Speaker 2: I agree, Come on, come on that depth, Like, it's
45:03
Speaker 2: kind of the same thing as with Annie understanding. Yeah,
45:07
Speaker 2: having the first understanding of who the vampires were.
45:10
Speaker 3: Oh, that was like, let's get our garlic. That was amazing.
45:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, but that's what I'm saying, Like she knew
45:16
Speaker 2: because she was already aware of that world. And I
45:18
Speaker 2: fully like that Native indigenous people were already aware of
45:21
Speaker 2: that world because of the depth of understanding of they
45:25
Speaker 2: knew of the universe, like the dark and the light.
45:28
Speaker 2: So seeing that, I'm like this, this is the prequel
45:32
Speaker 2: we want.
45:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
45:37
Speaker 2: So this is again from the history Can't Hide dot com.
45:39
Speaker 2: They write the Choctaw are one of the original indigenous
45:42
Speaker 2: people of southeastern United States, with ancestral lands throughout Mississippi, Alabama,
45:47
Speaker 2: and Louisiana. Known as sophisticated farmers, skilled craftspeople, and strategic diplomats,
45:52
Speaker 2: the Chalkdaw developed complex social and religious systems deeply connected
45:57
Speaker 2: to the land. In the eighteen thirties, most chalk Taw,
46:00
Speaker 2: or forcibly, relocated to Indian Territory now Oklahoma during the
46:04
Speaker 2: Trail of Tears, though some remained in Mississippi. Choctaw spiritual
46:08
Speaker 2: traditions include beliefs about soul, dualism and powerful entities residing
46:12
Speaker 2: in natural features, concepts that have influenced regional folklore across
46:16
Speaker 2: racial boundaries. Again, I loved everything about this. I love
46:20
Speaker 2: that they were the guardians of the land. I need
46:23
Speaker 2: this prequel. I don't know if anybody listens to us,
46:26
Speaker 2: but we need this prequel. Yeah.
46:28
Speaker 1: No, it was fantastic because the shock do they show
46:35
Speaker 1: up and they're like.
46:36
Speaker 3: Hey, it's definitely you shouldn't invite them in this vampire.
46:43
Speaker 1: They don't say vampire, but uh, you shouldn't invite them in.
46:49
Speaker 3: Just don't do it. And I kind of love how
46:53
Speaker 3: they were, like.
46:56
Speaker 1: It felt that they were protecting the land like a
46:58
Speaker 1: lot of Indigenous people protecting the land and protecting.
47:05
Speaker 3: People. Yeah, I think the prequel should be them. Yeah.
47:09
Speaker 2: I mean he literally says, we can take care of
47:11
Speaker 2: him now and protect you. Yes, just tell us he's
47:14
Speaker 2: here or let us in the type of conversation and
47:18
Speaker 2: they don't listen because they're not going to listen to Well,
47:21
Speaker 2: they said it straight right like like they called them
47:24
Speaker 2: you know everything else, but who they were, And I
47:28
Speaker 2: think like that level of understanding the land, the dimensions,
47:32
Speaker 2: that's exactly like any who was in the Hohodoo. Uh,
47:36
Speaker 2: practice them who are a part of the Choctown Nation,
47:38
Speaker 2: who understand the land in itself and have been there,
47:43
Speaker 2: have us been, was established there and still trying to
47:46
Speaker 2: protect even the people who would want to hurt them.
47:50
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't an interesting level. But I love that
47:52
Speaker 2: they that Google and made sure that was a part
47:54
Speaker 2: of the scene as well, and allowing for their indigenous language.
47:58
Speaker 2: I love that. I love them. Yeah, there you are.
48:02
Speaker 2: I think that was such a big part of why
48:06
Speaker 2: the representation and the love of those types of education,
48:11
Speaker 2: like on education. It's such a great way put this
48:14
Speaker 2: as a blip, because this is definitely one of those
48:18
Speaker 2: moments where we're going to have that philosophical ideal of freedom,
48:23
Speaker 2: especially during this time, especially for the black community, especially
48:27
Speaker 2: those who were enslaved or in times of Jim Crow.
48:30
Speaker 2: What did that look like? And they put it really
48:32
Speaker 2: well and like they were never free. Yeah, because if
48:36
Speaker 2: they were truly free, they would have these opportunities and
48:39
Speaker 2: not have to guard, not worry about whether they're going
48:42
Speaker 2: to die, because they were able to celebrate whether they
48:45
Speaker 2: were they were going to die or be murdered, because
48:47
Speaker 2: they bought things that they had wanted, trying to survive,
48:52
Speaker 2: trying to grow as a community. It was an interesting
48:56
Speaker 2: conversation again with the Smokestack Twins when Preacher Boy trying
49:02
Speaker 2: to tell him, this is not what you think. If
49:03
Speaker 2: you want true freedom, there's an area not too far
49:06
Speaker 2: from here where they actually do have a land. Go there.
49:11
Speaker 2: It's still in the South, but they are able to
49:13
Speaker 2: be able to be alone and do there and prosper.
49:17
Speaker 2: It's not in Chicago, it's not in the North. It's here.
49:20
Speaker 2: Like he talks about, if you want freedom, this is
49:22
Speaker 2: what it should look like in that level of death.
49:26
Speaker 2: But then you also have this conversation about freedom from religion,
49:28
Speaker 2: like the secular versus the religious, like his father like
49:32
Speaker 2: tying him down and saying, if you do these things,
49:36
Speaker 2: you're going to hell. That ever threat of hell, the
49:38
Speaker 2: ever that of the devil, the ever threat of being
49:42
Speaker 2: cast out essentially was also there. So you're not free
49:46
Speaker 2: from that, even though he has a passion and he
49:49
Speaker 2: also has a gift and talent in something that his
49:53
Speaker 2: father in the religious community, in the Christian religious community,
49:57
Speaker 2: would see as evil.
50:00
Speaker 3: M hmm, yeah, I think that.
50:05
Speaker 1: I guess kind of the downer now I'm becoming the downer,
50:09
Speaker 1: is that, you know, the search for freedom in so
50:12
Speaker 1: many cases is that you have this fleeting moment of it.
50:18
Speaker 1: And so they had it at their their kind of
50:21
Speaker 1: juke location with the the Twins, and then you have
50:28
Speaker 1: Sammy with his music who did he went on to continue.
50:34
Speaker 1: But but this idea that you have to fight for
50:40
Speaker 1: it and perhaps it's fleeting, I think is very prevalent
50:48
Speaker 1: throughout the film.
50:49
Speaker 3: And that's interesting to me.
50:52
Speaker 1: In terms of the vampire aspect, because vampires are immortal
50:59
Speaker 1: and theory and so to have these things that you
51:06
Speaker 1: fight for that it might not last forever, but we
51:15
Speaker 1: are worth fighting for, right.
51:19
Speaker 2: And you know what, I didn't explain this, and I
51:20
Speaker 2: didn't really know about this, and I feel like when
51:22
Speaker 2: you come back to the term juke, what it is
51:25
Speaker 2: and the originations and so essentially the origination of that
51:29
Speaker 2: word is a gula and if we've now talked about
51:33
Speaker 2: the Goula Gigee culture much, but it's one of the
51:36
Speaker 2: indigenous groups that came of the Black community within like
51:40
Speaker 2: the coastal areas Savannah and South South Carolina, all of
51:46
Speaker 2: those areas which still very much exists in their cultures
51:49
Speaker 2: very much have influenced the Southeast a lot. But it's
51:53
Speaker 2: actually originated from their word jug or juke, and it
51:58
Speaker 2: has the meaning of like wicked or rowdy or disorderly.
52:02
Speaker 2: So essentially this term is what it built into being
52:06
Speaker 2: a juke joint. This is what the Mississippi Encyclopedia dot
52:10
Speaker 2: org writes about it. The origins of the term juke
52:13
Speaker 2: or juke jo okay remain uncertain. Some scholars again had
52:18
Speaker 2: speculated the word derives from the African word juga, meaning
52:22
Speaker 2: bad or wicked. Well, others believe juke comes from juice. Again,
52:25
Speaker 2: I've seen more people saying that it was a Golla
52:27
Speaker 2: die chi term, so back and forth. But it also
52:31
Speaker 2: describes electric early electric guitars and music players or I
52:35
Speaker 2: guess it was also called juice boxes that I didn't know.
52:38
Speaker 2: I know. Apparently really little both old music and it
52:43
Speaker 2: really kind of popped up again during the nineteen thirties
52:46
Speaker 2: with this conversation juke joints, which we see as a
52:51
Speaker 2: reference from like writers like Zora Neil Hurston who apparently
52:56
Speaker 2: wrote about it in nineteen thirty four. But they were
52:59
Speaker 2: apparently appropriate previous basis, so they weren't like something they
53:04
Speaker 2: built up. They just kind of got there and they're
53:07
Speaker 2: like they set it up there. Essentially, they're kind of
53:09
Speaker 2: like the mill they set it up to be a
53:12
Speaker 2: juke joined. So there's a lot of like depth and
53:16
Speaker 2: then soul even in that word alone, and kind of
53:20
Speaker 2: a descriptor of what they were doing having a wicked
53:23
Speaker 2: time in that music world.
53:26
Speaker 1: Yes, well, and I also love I think the title
53:31
Speaker 1: is very good because of when you're talking about sinners
53:38
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, for a lot of people
53:43
Speaker 1: who grew up in the Western Christianity world, that means
53:46
Speaker 1: a specific thing. And I think that they did a
53:51
Speaker 1: really good job of exploring that idea of what the
53:57
Speaker 1: sin is. And I really really I know I said
54:02
Speaker 1: it earlier, but I really think that the setting looks
54:08
Speaker 1: to me like a church, It really does, and.
54:13
Speaker 3: So having.
54:16
Speaker 1: And there's just just a lot of things going on.
54:19
Speaker 1: There's like sex, and there's sexual tension, and there's drinking,
54:24
Speaker 1: and there's I guess music that could be considered like rowdy.
54:32
Speaker 3: So I appreciated that they.
54:36
Speaker 1: All of that, all of that, and then to have
54:39
Speaker 1: I really love that they have Annie come in and
54:44
Speaker 1: be respected listen to of Hey, no, this here's what
54:53
Speaker 1: we're gonna do. Yeah, this is what we need to do.
54:58
Speaker 1: And I don't know, there was just a part of
55:03
Speaker 1: me that I hadn't seen something so quick to be
55:08
Speaker 1: like no, she's right, let's just yeah, no.
55:11
Speaker 2: I love that sensibility. And she was authoritative, like not
55:14
Speaker 2: just like I don't though, guys, she was authoritative. She
55:18
Speaker 2: made I'm telling y'all love her character and she deserves
55:20
Speaker 2: all the awards. Interestingly, I wanted to go back real
55:34
Speaker 2: quick in this article about the juke joints because I
55:36
Speaker 2: think this is really important in historical contexts. So they
55:39
Speaker 2: say the volutability of juke joints developed out of subversive
55:43
Speaker 2: nature of early blues music itself. During slavery, African Americans
55:47
Speaker 2: were not permitted together. In some cases, dancing and singing
55:50
Speaker 2: also were not allowed. Despite these constraints, music played an
55:53
Speaker 2: important part for the community. As blues music game popularity
55:57
Speaker 2: in the Jim Crow South, juke joints became safe spaces
56:01
Speaker 2: for African Americans to gather without white supervision. So that's
56:04
Speaker 2: that important context of like not allowing the white people
56:07
Speaker 2: in there, like you got your own thing, let us
56:09
Speaker 2: have this, and it is it was subversive. It's kind
56:12
Speaker 2: of that level of like again, a little bit of sinning,
56:15
Speaker 2: a little bit against the rules, y'all won't let us
56:17
Speaker 2: do this? So let us have this and the juke
56:20
Speaker 2: joints became a thing of rebellion essentially, but also of
56:23
Speaker 2: celebration obviously. And again like in that level of like
56:27
Speaker 2: if there was a I guess the verses in that
56:30
Speaker 2: level of like sin versus good faith versus evil type
56:35
Speaker 2: of conversation, like we have to talk about the religious
56:39
Speaker 2: overtones in this conversation again, the overlapping of the different
56:43
Speaker 2: views of the time between Christianity, who do the indigenous beliefs?
56:47
Speaker 2: Like he layered these conversations and bulliees. He had any
56:51
Speaker 2: over here, he had the Father over here, and he
56:53
Speaker 2: even had the truck jab Nation coming through here and
56:56
Speaker 2: making sure that it was understood. This time was chaos,
57:00
Speaker 2: especially for a community to try to establish home in
57:04
Speaker 2: an area that would didn't feel safe, in a place
57:07
Speaker 2: in the situation that wasn't comfortable. But this is what
57:11
Speaker 2: they could do because they weren't giving options, like there
57:14
Speaker 2: was no other choice. But again with that comes the
57:18
Speaker 2: layer of adapting to where you are, so Christianity versus
57:24
Speaker 2: remembering some of the old ways, whether like beay, I
57:29
Speaker 2: guess we know the background of whodoo does come from
57:33
Speaker 2: African culture and that level and how it is a
57:36
Speaker 2: part of this It's a religious spiritual belief outside of
57:41
Speaker 2: what Christianity has made it look like. You know. It's
57:44
Speaker 2: this conversation. And there's an article written in Religious news
57:48
Speaker 2: dot Com about this movie and in this conversation, and
57:51
Speaker 2: they write this, Any's function as a spiritual mediator invites
57:55
Speaker 2: the audience into a discourse on a black spiritual understanding
57:58
Speaker 2: of protection, life, death. This is shown in her confrontation
58:02
Speaker 2: with a vampire, her explanation of what a vampire is,
58:05
Speaker 2: and her pleas to kill her. She has betten so
58:07
Speaker 2: her soul can be reunited with her daughter. These scenes
58:10
Speaker 2: and others position hoodoos and cexral framework as a lens
58:14
Speaker 2: that views death not as an end, but as a
58:17
Speaker 2: transitional state. As Sinners examines the poorest boundaries between the
58:22
Speaker 2: sacred and the secular and entanglement of religion and black identity,
58:25
Speaker 2: it offers a profound cultural contribution in this much needed
58:28
Speaker 2: moment in the US. Sinners sets a new standard for
58:31
Speaker 2: horror genre and begins a new chapter within the history
58:34
Speaker 2: of black horror films. Like it does it's this context.
58:37
Speaker 2: Like I love that they wrote about this because I
58:40
Speaker 2: know I've seen discourse back and forth, and there's a
58:43
Speaker 2: lot of black religious figures who like the movie and
58:47
Speaker 2: who see it as is, and then there's a lot
58:49
Speaker 2: of religious figures who are upset as some of this portrayal.
58:53
Speaker 2: So back and forth for sure, and this conversation in
58:56
Speaker 2: itself is such an important conversation and piece a culture
59:01
Speaker 2: about where it stood. She did not see who do
59:04
Speaker 2: was not something that said this is evil. It was like,
59:06
Speaker 2: this is a transition, and I know that I need
59:08
Speaker 2: to be well. She said, vampires are evil, but let's
59:11
Speaker 2: go ahead with that. She did say that, but the
59:13
Speaker 2: human experience in after life was seen as different and
59:16
Speaker 2: also different from what people see as heaven, you know,
59:19
Speaker 2: in that context as well, although the belief of heaven
59:23
Speaker 2: is not as important as the belief of hell in
59:26
Speaker 2: this context of Christianity, I think, I maan, I won't
59:29
Speaker 2: put that there, but it was a great conversation piece,
59:33
Speaker 2: and that because there has to be to me, especially
59:36
Speaker 2: as a person who as a Korean that came into
59:40
Speaker 2: the US into a very staunchly white Christian church that
59:43
Speaker 2: had a lot of set of rules that also looking
59:46
Speaker 2: back on my own culture that remember some of the
59:49
Speaker 2: Buddhists ancestral beliefs that was incorporated because they also were Christian,
59:53
Speaker 2: but they were colonized Christians as we know. So seeing
59:58
Speaker 2: those different aspects and to deal with that's like Christian
1:00:02
Speaker 2: trauma versus cultural understanding and understanding where Korean is in
1:00:08
Speaker 2: ast Asian and Asian cultures were in who they believed
1:00:12
Speaker 2: and how that changed throughout their history as well. Like
1:00:15
Speaker 2: it's interesting to note like you have to try to
1:00:20
Speaker 2: balance those like you need to figure out how to
1:00:25
Speaker 2: equally understand I guess without feeling guilt because there's this
1:00:29
Speaker 2: when you raised in one way, when you raised in
1:00:31
Speaker 2: a colonized Christian atmosphere called nie Christian beliefs and that's
1:00:35
Speaker 2: what you banked your life on as a child, to
1:00:38
Speaker 2: growing into this and being like, wait, that doesn't make
1:00:41
Speaker 2: sense because culturally, this is not where I was. You know,
1:00:45
Speaker 2: this was not my beginning, This is not my culture's beginning.
1:00:47
Speaker 2: So how did this overlap and who is this benefiting?
1:00:51
Speaker 2: So it is it's this level of conversation that has
1:00:54
Speaker 2: to be had when you confront history, your history, your
1:00:59
Speaker 2: your culture versus the colonized state of today.
1:01:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much to be said about this movie,
1:01:11
Speaker 1: it's amazing because that, you know, you could summarize it
1:01:14
Speaker 1: very simply as, oh, it's a kind of a time
1:01:19
Speaker 1: piece with vampires in it, but it does have so
1:01:25
Speaker 1: much going on and so much that it's talking about
1:01:29
Speaker 1: in terms of race and class and women. And I
1:01:35
Speaker 1: do think it's interesting about the twins because you have
1:01:38
Speaker 1: the kind of two different ways that they interact with
1:01:44
Speaker 1: the world and the two different ways of what happens
1:01:47
Speaker 1: to them.
1:01:49
Speaker 3: So there's just a lot of a lot to be said.
1:01:51
Speaker 3: And I think that.
1:01:53
Speaker 1: The fact that it's been so awarded, the fact that
1:01:56
Speaker 1: it was like one of the biggest things I saw
1:01:59
Speaker 1: at Dragon.
1:01:59
Speaker 2: Call, yes Halloween was people. And you know, before I forget,
1:02:04
Speaker 2: I'm missing the biggest context here, the usage of vampires
1:02:08
Speaker 2: as an allegory and this time frame. Yes, when we
1:02:12
Speaker 2: talk about colonization, when we talk about who is the
1:02:14
Speaker 2: blood sucker, who is like taking and stealing from people,
1:02:19
Speaker 2: who is like masquerading as the good people versus you know,
1:02:23
Speaker 2: like I'll heal you, I'll do these things where you
1:02:25
Speaker 2: come to mind, like if we talk about like missionaries
1:02:27
Speaker 2: in their context of like bringing religion to areas that
1:02:31
Speaker 2: didn't need it. Yeah, like they to steal culture, like
1:02:35
Speaker 2: we talked about vampires, like to steal other cultures like
1:02:38
Speaker 2: culture vultures, culture vampires. This is it, Like I I
1:02:43
Speaker 2: don't know how bypassed that. There's so much to this,
1:02:45
Speaker 2: but yeah, that's the huge allegory in itself for this
1:02:48
Speaker 2: entirety of the horror portion.
1:02:50
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely that, the whole blood sucking part and the whole.
1:02:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, gotta invite.
1:02:58
Speaker 2: I gotta take his music. I gotta take music. I
1:03:00
Speaker 2: need his music.
1:03:01
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, we had a lot to say about this.
1:03:08
Speaker 1: Obviously we could keep going. We shall see what award
1:03:14
Speaker 1: season brings, but I think I think they're gonna get
1:03:18
Speaker 1: some some awards. But listeners, if you have any thoughts,
1:03:26
Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at Hello
1:03:29
Speaker 1: at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You can find us
1:03:31
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1:03:34
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1:03:37
Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Cotton Bureau if
1:03:41
Speaker 1: you would like some, and we have a book you
1:03:43
Speaker 1: can get where you get your books. Thanks as always too,
1:03:46
Speaker 1: our super produced Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
1:03:49
Speaker 1: contributor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
1:03:53
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